Made in Melbourne with Ichpig's Nate Swinefeld

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 321.

Tommy: We've got a special guest, uh, in the studio. Nate, what's cracking, mate?

Nate: Not a lot, man. How are you?

Tommy: Yeah, good, dude. I'm, um, I'm just— I am concerned that I won't be able to last the whole episode with this jumper on.

Nate: I was thinking that with that big light.

Tommy: There's a bit of heat rocking, and I've got one of your jumpers on.

Nate: Yeah, of your brand, Each Pig. Each Pig, that's it.

Josh: I'm also wearing it. This is the first time we've worn something outside of our t-shirt.

Nate: I was thinking that, like, I was watching your episodes, I was thinking, man, these guys just wear plain tees.

Tommy: Yeah, well, this is— I mean, this is probably— yours is on brand in terms of straight black for me.

Josh: Yeah, just with a bit of minimal.

Tommy: Yeah. And then I've got sort of like— what color, what would you call this? Is this like—

Nate: we call that white marl.

Tommy: White marl.

Josh: What's marl?

Nate: Marl's like the flicker through it. So it's like when, when they make the spool, it It's not just a straight color. It's actually got, you know, a bit of gray, a bit of white, bit of light white, bit of lighter gray. And then they kind of blend it all together and then it kind of feeds in different, what are they? I guess you'd say yarns and threads go into the, and make the fabric. And that's how they put it all together.

Tommy: Well, you've got the electric blue on. You're here to party.

Nate: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: I've come off a big weekend.

Nate: I'm pretty famous for wearing color.

Tommy: Can you just tell us what you ate for breakfast?

Josh: I know this.

Tommy: Well, we just did a mic test with you and Josh said, what'd you have for breakfast?

Nate: And he got an answer out of me he was not expecting. Cornflakes or something?

Josh: Yeah, I was expecting some sort of muesli, maybe, maybe a yogurt.

Nate: No, so I, I ate, um, my girlfriend and I cooked like a big Mexican dish yesterday with— it was chicken, rice, uh, some tomatoes and some kale. But then we had some leftover kangaroo and bean mix, and I mixed, mixed that through, and I was eating it out in the car park.

Josh: Yeah, what sort of beans? Just out of curiosity.

Nate: I think it was kidney beans.

Josh: Kidney beans?

Nate: Yeah, we always just kind of randomly pick the different ones from Aldi or whatever and just kind of cycle through.

Josh: Yeah, are they dry? Do you have to soak them or no?

Nate: You soak them to get all the kind of gunk off them, okay, all those preservatives they use to keep them last long. But, um, nah, usually you just use the flavour or the, the mix of the, um, the flavour that you're putting in. Yeah, you just mix it through and you can't really taste them.

Tommy: We just slipped into a bit of food chat, which I, which I love. Always good. Yeah, within the first 5 minutes.

Josh: Well, I think I made the mistake of not, um, rinsing my beans the other day.

Nate: Yeah, and it's kind of gluggy and it's got that weird— it's like, it's almost— it reminds me of juice. Yeah. Oh, it just, you know, did you— have you guys seen Ace Ventura?

Josh: Yes.

Nate: And you know when he comes out of the rhino's ass, the robotic rhinos, and it's like all like— it's all sweaty.

Tommy: Mate, I feel you. But it's a real amateur move to not rinse your beans.

Josh: Yeah, well, I got them out of a can, so I assume—

Tommy: yeah, but yeah, no, you gotta rinse your beans.

Nate: Put it in the strainer.

Josh: Yeah, they seem Nate, you seem like a practical dude. Like you're not just like someone who's founded a business and it's all hands off and all that sort of thing.

Nate: Nah, hands on.

Josh: Did it actually start— am I right in saying that you were like sewing shit?

Nate: Yeah, yeah. So my brother— so when we first, first started, we were in Japan together and I was a snowboard instructor and somehow Alex managed to come along and get a free ride, free lift ticket. Didn't teach a fucking lesson the whole time.

Tommy: Is he the younger brother?

Nate: Yeah, he's the younger brother.

Tommy: Classic.

Nate: Yeah, classic move. Classic. Somehow he just—

Josh: Tommy would definitely do that.

Nate: Yeah, just piggyback off me. So I learned how to, um, crochet beanies off one of the instructors, um, and I kind of got okay at that. And then we kind of got shown this, this technique of how to make jumpers longer because the tall, longer clothing thing was a thing back then, 9 years ago. Um, and yeah, Alex learned how to sew when we got back, and then we kind of slowly figured how we're going to do this. And then yeah, he taught me, and then yeah, we started, I think the first maybe 12 months of the, of the company, we were sewing.

Josh: So what do you actually start— like, when you're sewing, are you starting with like how many actual pieces?

Nate: So what we would do, um, we, we had a— we were kind of testing it first on our own clothes. So basically what we do is you get a, you get a jumper, you slice it through the middle, and then it becomes two parts, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: And then you make a middle part or middle third, which which is basically just a tube. So it's two bits of fabric, you run a seam here, run a seam here, then you line the seam up, line this down, and then you just overlock it around both, on both new seams, right? And that makes the jumper taller.

Josh: Ah, sure.

Nate: So what we, what we realised was once that was done, that ability to do that, you could start picking what colour you wanted to wear.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: So all we did was, is we, we— it's funny, you know, like the, the manufacturer we still use today used to be on Smith Street.

Josh: Oh really? Yeah, yeah.

Nate: So we— I remember I was telling this storey on another podcast the other day, it was like I remember I had, we had $1,000 to our name. I remember taking the money out from that CommBank that used to be down there, walking up the street with this $1,000 in my hand, in my pocket, fucking shitting myself.

Tommy: But that's Game Street. Yeah, that's Game Around.

Nate: And you know, walking past, you know, the kind of people that hang down.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nate: You know, they probably weren't looking at me, paying any attention to me, but I thought they were staring at me, waiting to jump me. And I remember walking all the way up and yeah, so we bought a whole bunch of their discontinued stock um, which was all colours of the rainbow. It was like, they were like $9, $9 a pop for each jumper. And then we took it all back, we put it in mum's garage, which we purchased off her. And then, you know, that was, that was like our HQ.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: Um, and yeah, we just started like chopping. We'd add the middle part in. And at the start it was crewnecks because we didn't know how to make hoods.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Nate: And then somehow we learned how to make fucking hoods because it's, you know, that's kind of complicated. You got, you know, like 4 pieces, you've got to join it the two pieces, then you go join it around the outside, then you flip it inside out, and then you go put into the collar. Um, and yeah, that's kind of how it started. We're just sewing, and then I remember we got so buried in orders because we essentially became manufacturers.

Josh: Yeah, yes.

Nate: You know, you can imagine like these guys out of this garage and, you know, western suburbs making these jumpers, and, and, and word just went like wildfire. And so then we ended up like— I remember at one stage we were like 30 orders deep Yeah, we just couldn't get through them, you know. I mean, Alex just sitting there fucking slaving away in mum's garage freezing our tits off. We thought, oh, why don't we just prepare them and then get someone else to make them for us? Yeah, then we can speed the process up. So we started treating it like, you know, kind of like pre-packaged jumpers almost. And we found some, some sewers. I think the first one we used, her name was Michelle. She's this kind of hippie, kind of crazy girl from St. Kilda. I remember we used to drive them out there and then she would kind of sew them all up and they'd come back, we'd do the quality cheque and fix all the mistakes and, and they kind of grew from there.

Josh: Yeah, so it's a crew neck, is it? Is a hooded, like a hoodie, just a crew neck with a hood?

Nate: So you're wearing a crew?

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: And I'm wearing a hoodie.

Josh: Yeah. And so to make a hoodie, do you just take a crew neck and add the hood?

Nate: Well, so what we'd actually— it's kind of sketchy in a way, but what we actually did, it's kind of sketchy, like, you know, we're figuring shit out. Yeah. At the start we'd actually just straight sew a hoodie into the crew neck so it looked like you were wearing a hoodie underneath.

Josh: Yeah, that's what I would do.

Nate: Yeah, yeah. And it was sick, but like, you know, putting it through the overlocker, you know, like there's so much fucking fabric. Yeah, like, you know, 2 layers of the hood, then you got the crew rib, and then you got the seam that's already there. Man, we broke so many needles.

Josh: I think you say so many necks on the way to the sleeve.

Nate: Just like, I remember just trying to get it through and this machine would just shit itself and split needle. And then you gotta get the little Allen key out, you gotta kind of undo it quickly, you gotta get the tweezers.

Tommy: You gotta be into it.

Nate: Oh man, and then putting it back in, then you gotta thread the thing through the correct way. And like overlockers are pretty— I don't know how many people know what overlockers are like.

Josh: No idea.

Nate: It's really complicated. It's not like a sewing machine where you just kind of run it from here, run it down. To get the tension right, because of the way it hammers down, it goes through all these series of holes, and if you don't get in the right holes to make the sequence, it doesn't make the right stitch.

Tommy: So the metaphor for life, really.

Nate: Yeah, it's the worst. So we would— I remember one day I fucking broke the needles and I was spending hours trying to— I had to learn how to rethread the whole thing because it had come undone.

Tommy: Yeah, what's your craft, right? Um, no, we got connected through our mates at Nando's.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: And, and some, um, the person who works at Nando's, their son was seeing that you guys were sort of posting with Nando's. That's a separate story, but basically, but basically it's, uh, one of the head of PR's son saw that this cool brand Itch Pig are posting about Nando's.

Nate: Yeah.

Tommy: And that's how sort of we've ended up here today. But what I love about that is you've created this something that's cool, which is super hard to do, right?

Nate: Like, it is pretty hard. Yeah.

Tommy: I think, you know, young kids identifying with this brand as being something cool, which, you know, people don't understand these, you know, things like the hard work of the thread and the stitching and all this hard work. And so they see the final product. What's that for you when you see where it's come from as far as the hard work to also this cool hip, you know, uh, trendy thing that's now happening?

Nate: It's, it's, it's, it's almost unfathomable. Like, like when you tell that storey about, you know, me sitting there trying to thread shit and like learning how to sew, to now, it's like I don't even know how many lifetimes that is. It's like, it's like I'm a completely different person when I was doing that at that point in my life to what I am now. It's nuts. Like I was saying, it was funny because I was saying it to, um, I was speaking to one of our, our staff members' parents. So we've just got this new new kid that's working for us and I'm kind of teaching him some of the skills that I've become pretty good at. Anyway, I hadn't quite spoken to his mom and it was kind of like, I felt like I kind of owed it to him 'cause I want this kid to be a part of the company forever. And so I was saying to her how like, yeah, I was like, ah, to kind of, you just don't get that kind of experience and that kind of knowledge from university. They just can't create it. It's like real world shit, you know? Like I was saying to Hal, like, you know, 'cause I used to do industrial design. So that's like product design, right? Yeah. So when we first started Itchpick way, way back then, I remember I used to come up with these fucking crazy ideas. Like there was this one idea I had instead of, and I was real big on sustainability and recycling and shit, you know, I was a bit of a tree hugger or whatever. Yeah. I came up with this idea. Instead of buying new t-shirts, you just buy the one t-shirt off us and you change the graphics out. Because, you know, really everyone just wears a white tee or a black tee.

Tommy: Well, especially if you're talking to us.

Nate: No offense. So then I came up with this idea, this design. It was like this pizza thing. So you had two zips that came like this, and you basically just changed over the graphics and you slotted it out, in and out, right? Right. Yeah, but it wasn't economical at all, right? It didn't work. Yeah, because to manufacture it, who's going to pay $100 for a t-shirt or whatever? Yeah, that's what you would have had to solve. And that's the thing that in university it's just one of the lessons you don't learn is that like an idea is only good if you can actually sell it.

Tommy: Yeah, did you go into— I guess I baked my question, but it's like now I realise what I wanted to ask you. Did you go in thinking that you wanted to create something cool that kids would be into, or did you go in thinking, I'm actually into making this shit and I actually enjoy the craft?

Nate: It was more about when we started, there was nothing that fitted us the way we wanted it to fit, and we thought the quality out there was pretty rat shit. And to be honest, I think that's still the case. I think the quality out there is, um, well, you know, like all companies, and they're just trying to get their FOB down. And what I mean by that is their cost of goods. They're just trying to get it down as low as they can.

Tommy: Well, we're talking about this on yesterday's episode, that fast fashion. Yeah, yeah, it's like everyone wants it cheaper and they want it good.

Nate: Yeah, it's funny that I always— I, I say this a lot, and it's like, you know, you can imagine we cop it from time to time, you know, you're like, oh, you're charging $180, $200 for a jumper, and you're like, is that how much this is? Yeah, those ones are $160 and that one we have to—

Josh: I'm gonna have to take them off afterwards. So now we have to walk down Smith Street not worrying about cash, but someone's gonna take us for our hoodies.

Nate: You're gonna get rolled for your jumpers. Um, yeah, so it's, it's one of those things where it's like, like those people that complain about the price they're often the first people also to complain when they lose their job. Yeah, because the job has gone offshore. So you can't have it both ways. You can't complain about getting paid, you know, $15 an hour and wanting to get $25 an hour, but then that item, that artefact that you're producing or doing, then costs, you know, what it needs. Because yeah, a lot of the time people don't realise that, you know, like, to survive in this world, you have to time something by 3 at least. Like the really special guys that I'm sure you guys get on here, they wouldn't be working at 3 times, they'd be working at 5, 7, 8, 10 times. That's what some of the big guys do, right?

Tommy: What do you mean by that?

Nate: So, you know, if you produce something for $10, you want to sell for $100. Okay, that's what the mega stars do. Yeah, like, like someone like— I don't know, like, I don't want to call companies out, but, you know, I mean, you know the companies I'm talking about. Like, you can go to any shop on Smith Street and like the prices that they're charging you versus what they land the stuff at in the country is just insane.

Tommy: Well, you look at like, uh, Givenchy, Givenchy, yeah, however you say it, their hoodies that are like that, legit $900. Yeah, there's brand there, but how much, like, from a quality perspective, yeah, how, how is it worth $900? The item is landed for them probably, what, $200? 100?

Nate: Who knows, man. It's like, it's, yeah, it's crazy. It's like, you know, like that's the problem with like, and that's why a lot of the industry is dying is because they built their whole business model of getting 10 times.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: But once people get smarter and more clued in and realise they're getting basically reamed, they're not gonna fall for it anymore.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: But you know, like they'll drop the prices and they're still making 7 times.

Josh: Well, there's also—

Nate: That's why everyone's always on sale.

Josh: Yeah. They have to be. Well, the other thing too is like, I think that 2019, it's like the, the death of the middleman in some regards.

Nate: Or 100%, you guys, you guys are doing it yourselves, right? Like you're talking direct to your audience.

Tommy: Yes.

Nate: Fuck, fuck, fuck the middleman.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, we're a big media company.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Yeah, by name.

Josh: Uh, and yes, I think that's part of it too, right? Which is like, um, these, uh, the, the pricing structure has had to allow for all, all of that as well. All of the fat that is going through all of these different people before it gets to the customer.

Nate: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy, it's crazy. Like if people realised what a pair of shoes start off at versus what they end up at once you actually buy them, it's insane how many people have just gotten their little 100% out there, their little 100%, a little 100%, and suddenly, you know, something that lands at, you know, $5 is now $200.

Josh: Do you think that the, uh, the idea of manufacturing in Melbourne, you know, made in Melbourne. Is that something that you think that you'll be able to do long term?

Nate: I'm hoping so, but it's fucking challenging. Yeah, like it's really challenging. Like in terms of what we're doing now on the scale we're at now, that's fine. But if we want to go massive, like not massive, if we want to go global or international or whatever, you know, like people are already saying to us like, you guys might have to compromise, you might have to seriously think about it. And like, it's like one of those things, it's like, fuck, like it's such a, um, I don't know how to describe it. It's such a, like, a conflicting idea. Yeah, you know, you've built this thing on, you know, doing it the right way and, and not saying fuck you, and I want to do it myself, and I want to do it the right way, and we're going to prove that you can do it the right way. But like, like, I'm hustling literally, like, from the moment I wake up at 6 AM till half an hour before I go to bed at 10:30 or 11 o'clock or whatever, right? Like Like, like, how I still have a partner that will put up with my bullshit is amazing. Like, she is awesome that she puts up with my crap because no one fucking else. Yeah, no, like everyone thinks it's fun and games, you know, fucking skating all day and I'm living the life and I'm killing it. But like when I did, I did a podcast the other week, the guy, the guys who were sitting there behind the mic, like, like Mr. Nice, he's pointing. Yeah, yeah, um, I couldn't believe how much my fucking phone went off. Yeah, my phone just didn't stop. Yeah, for 2 hours straight it was just going ding ding ding. And that's like, it was like what you said to me the other day about how, um, Jules gave someone some advice about just hit the likes up. We've been doing that for 9 years.

Tommy: And so what he's referring to is Jules Lund, who was on this podcast, gave a mutual friend some advice, um, about his clothing label to get into the DMs and actually start talking to the people who are your customers, which significantly increased their monthly revenue just from that tactic. And I was mentioning it tonight and he said that's what we've been doing. Like, so explain to us what that— that's something that's sort of like hands-on marketing.

Nate: So I mean, to me it's like the thing that makes us different is you're talking to real people, you're talking to people that give a shit. They know the product inside out. They live and breathe it. You're not talking to some— well, not that there's anything wrong with it, but you're not talking to a 23-year-old that's working a retail job trying to get through uni and their mind's elsewhere and they're probably hungover from the weekend, right? That's not who you're talking to. You're talking to the guy or one of the guys, and it makes it for a very different experience because, you know, like, we know the product inside out. We design— I mean Most of the time when we're designing stuff, we actually are designing stuff that we need for our wardrobes. That's one of the— like, our— the Itch Pig customer or whatever, they love us so much they want to wear us as much as possible because, you know, the stuff's really good quality and it's great. Um, so then as something comes along that we think, oh shit, we need this, then it's like, well, you just go and say that to all these other people that have bought from us because they're the same boat. They don't have the thing either.

Josh: You make undies too, don't you?

Nate: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: How did you know?

Josh: How did you know? Yeah, how different is making underwear versus making hoodies in regards to, you know, the process and what you actually need to do?

Nate: Um, undies are just a little bit simpler in terms of like, it's different, different, it's not as many different, um, materials. It's, you know, you've got your cotton spandex and then you've got your band. Um, in terms of Undies are a tricky one for us actually because that's one where, you know, big companies, they make them for 50 cents maybe, not even. Like, and our undies actually cost us quite a lot to make. That's actually one of our garments where we don't make the greatest margin, but we just do it because they're fucking sick undies. Yeah, yeah, they're really good, they're really comfy. I actually swear by them. I don't wear anything else anymore. Yeah, they, um, we kind of changed the band.

Josh: Looks really cool. I saw them online.

Nate: Yeah, the band's sick. And also one of the things you don't notice is is if you look on the back of them, the seam doesn't go all the way down kind of and around the gooch. I was listening to one of your episodes where you're talking about the gooch.

Tommy: He understands that, right?

Josh: That's so funny.

Nate: But no, what we did was is it kind of—

Josh: Around the chakra.

Nate: The chakra, that's what it was.

Josh: I think I saw that.

Nate: The chakra, I've never heard that before.

Josh: I just think of gooch. It's one of the 7, yeah, exactly, absolutely. I think taint is another one. Is a taint a different thing as well? I heard that on the weekend. There's many ways to describe that middle bit.

Nate: Yeah, I think taint's the same.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Nate: Anyway, off topic as always. Um, so yeah, what we did was we, we brought this— that seam line, it doesn't go all the way down, it kind of stops at your tailbone, and then there's actually an arch that comes over kind of over your butt cheeks. And what that means is, is you don't get wedgies because there's no seam there. Okay, you can't fold in.

Josh: So I need that shit. Matters.

Nate: Yeah, that shit matters.

Tommy: I need that for— um, like, I see people who sort of love brands, and you were describing those people that want to be wearing your Itchy Pig clothing and they end up being head to toe. Yeah, it becomes a thing for them. I've never had that thing for a brand. Maybe it's just— maybe I've been daggy in my life, but I've always just kind of thrown together clothes. But there is—

Josh: what—

Tommy: who is that kind of person? What are— what's their— what's their vibe? The person that wants to be head to toe in a certain brand, like, what are they thinking?

Nate: Well, I guess they just really buy into what the brand's about, you know, like I mean, with us, if you care about making things ethically, you think we're good guys, you know, there's not many brands in the world where you can have the kind of access that you have with us and how open we are. And we're very democratic, you know, like we talk to our customers a lot, we try and get feedback, we try and be inclusive, you know. The company's built on that. It's built on— we're not kind of standing up here saying this is fashion, fucking eat it up, you know what I mean? Like, we're not about that. It's, it's kind of like, it's ebbs and flows, you know. We try and take feedback, we try and have people included, we try and have people a part of it. We're really gracious, you know. Like, every order you get, fuck me, like, thank God, you know. Like, you got to appreciate that shit, you know. Like, you're convincing people to, to part with their hard-earned, and they're choosing to spend it on you. There's a million things in this world they could spend it on, and they chose you.

Tommy: So I see the appeal when it's at that level. I have never sort of, I guess, sort of had that tipping point of like being interested in a brand where I then realize, like, I couldn't imagine the brands I'm probably, you know, gravitate towards. I couldn't speak to anyone from them.

Josh: No, Cotton On isn't, uh, Shelly from the, you know, pants department. No, I feel like I'm probably more on the boat of like going all— like that was one of the decisions I made like, uh, probably a year ago where it's like I'm just gonna have this one brand of t-shirt that I wear and I know it works and I, you know, buy a new one every year. Have you sort of factored that in from a business point of view where it's like people seem to want to be holding on to shit for longer and that when you're building something that's of such high quality, I can imagine this lasting me for like 5 winters.

Nate: Yeah.

Josh: How does that work from a business standpoint?

Nate: Um, it works in the sense that, you know, it's kind of like, it's like Subarus. Subarus, you buy them and they hold their value. Um, our garments are the same. So, you know, you buy into us and you, you know, say there's something that comes along and you want to refresh your taste up and you like it more, well, you can sell the item you have and it holds its value pretty well. Yeah, like I sell my secondhand stuff for the price I bought it, the price that it's worth.

Tommy: Yeah, you just don't tell your brother. Co-owner, just side hustle.

Nate: Yeah, he knows, he knows, because I'm the one that's in the public eye a little bit more than him, so I kind of have to be in the newest stuff a little bit more. Um, but you know, like, there's heaps of customers that miss out on shit all the time, like, and they're fucking spewing. Like, one guy hit me up a couple of weeks ago, he's like, fuck, you guys gonna do any more orange hoods? And I was like, no, but I know I've got one in my closet and it's sitting there and I haven't worn it in 6 months. Yeah, fuck it, you know, here. He's like, you sure? I don't want to buy. I'm like, dude, it's my secondhand jumper. Like, yeah, fucking have it, it's sweet. It's— I'd rather it— it's going to make more money and make you happier.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: And me happier being in your closet than being in mine.

Tommy: Are you trying to do this from a brand perspective? I guess that's the question around, you know, are you intentionally trying to create this cool thing? Are you intentionally trying to create this real desire for people to want your range and whether it goes out, you know, you've finished the release and then people like, I want that.

Nate: And you kind of do and you don't. Um, it's— I mean, it's always good to have more demand than supply. I mean, look at some of the biggest companies in the world, like Supreme, has built a whole Supreme— Supreme are a classic, you know. They know they can sell 1,000 of something, they'll release 200. They're a classic, but they're a different beast now, you know. Like, they're, they're actually being I'm not sure if you guys know, they've been bought out by a big investment firm. They got bought out at— they got valued at a billion dollars, and the investment firm Carlyle's bought them for $5.5 million— oh, sorry, $550 million. Yeah, so 50%— oh, just over 50% stake. So they're at a different stage now. But yes, that's what they were doing, this was— they were trying to be uber cool. And the thing with Supreme is, the thing that a lot of people don't realise And the reason why Supreme is unique is because they were built and constructed by this guy called James Jebbiah. So James Jebbiah was actually the creative director for Stussy. So he got bought out by Stussy for $14 million. So then he goes and starts this small, uh, skate shop in New York called Supreme. The guy doesn't give a fuck about making money. That's inherently cool. Like, who in this world starts a business and says you know what, if we make money or not, I don't give a shit. Yeah, there's not many like—

Josh: and that's why we must be very cool then with the Daily Talk Show because we're making fuck all. So we're at the supreme level, I guess.

Nate: And I was going to say, coming back to us, that's why, you know, we're not inherently trying to be cool because to me I feel like, you know, going out there saying fuck it, I'm going to do this, I don't give a shit what's in my way. And that's what Itchpick's about really, you know, it's that The name means a relentless progression fueled by hunger. So, you know, like we wanted to start a company and even when we were just an absolute fucking joke and we were, you know, I was crocheting beanies myself and Alex and I were sewing these hoodies out of mom's garage, we still talked about ourselves and believed we were a company even though we were so fucking—

Josh: It's delusion, which Tommy and I love. Like we have built everything we do on a certain level of delusion.

Nate: It's smoke and mirrors, right?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: For ourselves though, like, because we almost believe it, right? Like, you feel like you don't believe it, no one else will. Yeah.

Nate: If you can't, if you can't look someone in the eyes and convince them on what you are talking and spitting, yeah, jog on.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Nate: It's time for something else because that's what it takes, you know. People are so smart now. And, and I remember we always believed it was going to happen. And I remember Alex's friends used to fucking laugh at us because one of the big things was when we first started it was all about the brand and not us. So we would wear balaclavas, flat out. Yeah, every photo. People come to the workshop to pick up their stuff.

Tommy: Um, as in a balaclava is fully over— yeah, eye holes, mouth, full face. Because just done an armed robbery.

Nate: Yeah, pretty much. Because it was, it was about, it was about the garments selling themselves, not the model's faces, not the bullshit marketing selling it. Now we kind of sold out and not— don't do that anymore. But you know what I mean?

Tommy: Like, it's probably timely to stop doing that.

Nate: Yeah, we kind of started getting associated with things that we weren't really about, and people— it was kind of hard to get that message out to everyone. So you just kind of, you know, sometimes it's one of those things where you've got to cut off your hand despite your arm.

Josh: I heard you mention that you grew up in the Westside.

Tommy: Yep.

Josh: And I didn't really— it was only probably 3 years ago that I actually started to understand the sort of fanatic nature that people from the West have about Westside. I grew up near Dandenong, southeast.

Nate: Yeah.

Josh: And then I was on the train once and a friend said, oh, you know, Westside's best side. And they're talking about Olympic Doughnuts and they're talking about all these Westside fucking things. I had no idea. It was a new world.

Nate: It's one of those things like people are just so like, sometimes people need a thing to kind of band around, you know. It's just another form of religion. Yeah. But yeah, no, the west side is pretty, um, it's pretty— I mean, it's famous for being blue collar, you know, like that's where all the manufacturing jobs are.

Tommy: Where is this? Footscray, Williamstown? Where did you go?

Nate: Yeah, yeah, I grew up like kind of Williamstown, Newport area.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: Um, and went to school out in Werribee, uh, Westbourne or whatever.

Tommy: Yeah.

Nate: So, you know, like I wasn't like, um, proper rough and grime by any means, like I'm not pretending to be that, but you know, I was friends with everyone because I skated, I played basketball, you know, I was big into snowboarding. Um, but yeah, like kind of everyone in that area I, I more or less knew because I was into so many different sports and kind of shit like that.

Josh: Do you associate with that, that Westside thing? Do you identify with it?

Nate: I do, yeah. I mean, it was funny, like a while back, like we had this, we had this kid and he, he basically ripped us off online or whatever. He'd put in a fraudulent order and You know, I was just so fucking fuming about it. I fucking turned up at his house. I just went there.

Tommy: Well, he fucked up. He put his address.

Nate: Yeah, well, no, no, it's funny. He put his friend's address. I went to the friend's address.

Josh: Did you pull out the balaclavas?

Nate: I should have.

Josh: Itchpig's here, bitch. Bit of that vibe.

Nate: It was kind of— I remember his mum kind of answered the door and she was fucking shitting herself. She's like, hello, can I help you? I'm like, is your son's name such and such? And she's like, Yes. I'm like, all right, I've got a storey for you. Yeah. And so I kind of told him what happened.

Tommy: She got you a cup of tea?

Josh: What did happen?

Tommy: She invite you in?

Nate: Yeah, no, she invited me in and stuff. And I remember I walked into the fucking house and the dad is in an Itch Big Jack jacket.

Josh: My son got it for my birthday. Is there a problem, sir?

Nate: The funny thing was it was his card, right? So I recognised him straight away because I'd got them to send me the credit card and the ID because I had a sniff it was pretty fraudulent looking. And he's lying on the couch face down in his jocks, just like— this is like at 9:30, 10 o'clock at night. I've been skating all night, so I'm sweaty as fuck. I'm staying in these guys' house in like somewhere nice. Where was it? It was like Kew or something like that.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Nate: Yeah. And the woman's like, honey, honey, this guy's here, he's got to tell you this storey about our son. And I'm standing there just going, oh my fucking God. Anyway, I tell them the storey about what's happened and they're just absolutely mortified. This kid's apparently, you know, like you know, he's kind of done some shit he shouldn't have done, which is fair enough. Anyway, the kid comes home and then was it a reverse charge or something?

Josh: How did you know it was fraudulent?

Nate: Like, what was, uh, just the way he— you could kind of tell with certain orders when, especially when people say someone orders 3 different orders in the one night and they pay for shipping every time. Who's fucking stupid enough to do that?

Tommy: And did you send out the product?

Nate: We did, because we did our, we did our cheques and we did our stuff and it came back and we had all the information. That's why I knew, like, it wasn't too bad. Like, it looked It looks sketch, but at the same time I got enough reassurances from the cheques I did that was okay. But it still turned out I got almost fucked on it. Yeah, yeah, but anyway, these people are really good about it and they're awesome about it.

Tommy: Well, you're in Kew, it's one of the upper, you know, echelon suburbs of Melbourne.

Nate: Sometimes you get people pretending to be, but anyway, so the, the coming back to the story, I kind of got a bit off topic. Anyway, this kid walks in and like I had to confront him about it, like his parents asked me to confront him and I was happy enough to confront it like in his room. We're gonna have to get you to confront front house, son.

Tommy: You get one slap and we're okay with that.

Nate: Yeah, it was pretty wild.

Josh: We're gonna have to cut his hands off now.

Nate: And anyway, this kid was kind of telling me what he'd done, and I remember saying to him, mate, you stink of being from the east side, man. Yeah, like, the people that you're hanging around with and talking to will fucking eat you alive. Like, if you fuck these people off, they'll just like they'll just toss you. Like, you're just like fish bait to them, you know? And that's, that's one thing you can always kind of bank on, is like, you can always kind of tell where people are from by the way they dress, the way they talk, the way— the things that they say. Like, for instance, if someone says eats, you know they're from Sydney straight away.

Josh: What is that?

Nate: It's like eats, like, like sick, like good. It's—

Tommy: it's— it's never heard it.

Josh: Yeah, Uber Eats.

Tommy: No, that's all right.

Nate: It's like, it's E-E-T-S. You can tell it from they're from Eats. Or like, if people are wearing a heap of Nautica and Tommy and they look pretty preppy, you know they're from the East. Like, sure, there's heaps of little things. And I guess I've, I've gotten pretty exposed to that because, you know, I fucking talk to so many people a day, it's not even funny, right? So I get pretty, I get pretty cluey with picking up people.

Josh: So you're a Westside brand then? Like, do you have the— if, if someone's wearing, um, Itch Pig, what does that tell you about them, do you think?

Nate: Um, It probably tells you that, like, you know, they give a fuck about what they're wearing. They have a bit of a conscience. They like being a part of something. Um, and it doesn't necessarily mean they're from the West, East, or North or South or whatever, because one of the, one of the things about us that we've kind of managed to, um, get into a pretty unique spot here is, is that we have the ability to hit very different, a very vast amount of styles. We're influenced by so many different things, like you know, like kind of tech culture. Or, um, and when I mean tech, I don't mean fucking, you know, like Silicon Valley. I mean like, you know, kind of, uh, like, you know, track pants with heaps of zips on it and stuff. Or, and kind of OG skate culture, you know, like big pants, cargo pants. Um, we like sport a lot, so heaps of NBA colorways are kind of in there.

Tommy: Um, you've also infiltrated the skating culture, which, which, you know, doesn't judge its people from all walks of life.

Nate: Yes, I mean, skaters are funny where sometimes they'll judge and they'll be really cliquey, but sometimes they're not.

Tommy: We've got the subculture of— yeah, of any sport.

Nate: It's like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of like— it's funny, like, I was talking to someone, one of— we're actually about to, hopefully in the next month or so, we're going to start doing skate lessons out of, out of the warehouse.

Josh: Great, I'll get on that. I've always wanted to be able to skate.

Nate: Yeah, but Tommy was telling me we're gonna try and get you to drop in.

Tommy: Well, Nate had— Nate has built with your business, has built a whole skate warehouse.

Nate: Yeah, skatepark.

Josh: I played Tony Hawk on PlayStation.

Tommy: Not the same, eh?

Josh: You're like my brother.

Tommy: He would have done— he would have put all the hacks in as well so he can grind for days.

Josh: Absolutely grinding for days.

Tommy: But I grew up, my dad was building us, you know, mini pipes and fuck it, oh, it was the best. So what you've got is like the dream.

Nate: Yeah, it's pretty sick, it's pretty epic. Like, I, I, I mean, I do take it for granted a little bit, but like Yeah, it's pretty fun. It's pretty sick. We've been skating it and coming now that daylight savings has just finished, I'm gonna flog it every night probably because I can't go anywhere else. 'Cause I won't get out of work early enough.

Josh: And so what's the skating culture like in 2019?

Nate: Skating culture's—

Tommy: And is rollerblading back at all?

Nate: Rollerblading is kind of still frowned upon unfortunately, which is kind of weird.

Josh: I mean, I was a speed skater back then. I wasn't a speed skater. I always wanted to be, you know, when they would do the, okay, the speed skaters get on, you go around the thing.

Tommy: Jeez.

Josh: You don't remember?

Tommy: No, I used to blade.

Nate: No, I used to blade.

Tommy: It was cool when we were growing up though. It was cool in like the late '90s.

Nate: Yeah, we used to wear Juice.

Josh: Did you have a Juice?

Nate: Yeah, USA. Yeah, and SMP, that skate store.

Tommy: No, skate— what is it? Skate—

Nate: SMP, Sex Money Power, or Snowboard More Peaks, or Skate More Parks.

Tommy: We used to always say suck my penis. That's just what we thought it stood for.

Nate: But there was that skate shop on SMC on Lonsdale near the old skate park.

Tommy: Park.

Nate: Yeah, this is flashbacks.

Tommy: Yeah, no, no, in a great way. Like, I spent so much time down the skate park. Yeah, like, um, the Elwood Bowl. It was a crappy, just two, you know, two sort of pits.

Nate: We still go to that bowl. It's still two pits, but we still— like, a few of my friends, they always try and drag me there because I don't really like going there that much, but they always drag me there.

Tommy: Well, I grew up the school of the Elwood Bowl. It was sick. I mean, but now it's like a full-fledged skate park as well.

Nate: Yeah, they've added a few things to it.

Tommy: I always said I would have been so much better better at skating if I had that skate park there, because all you could do was go in the bowl.

Nate: Yeah, I mean, that's what— that's what the kids are so lucky now. Like, I hate sounding like one of them old guys, you know, football was played.

Tommy: Nah, man, skate parks were shit back in the day.

Nate: Skate parks are fucking epic now. Oh dude, and they're in every fucking suburb. Like, like, I go out to Chelsea all the time because they've got this monster skate park. It's so sick. It's the best. Like, I love it.

Tommy: The one in Shepparton's amazing.

Nate: Yeah.

Tommy: When I was living there, I think there was something about like that time spent at these places. It's cathartic for young kids.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so your brand, you know, being associated with something like skating, it's tapping into a special time or a special place for them.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's like surfing when you're out in the waves. It's like, it makes you feel great. And so skate parks, you know, and skating is that. So your brand's closely associated with that.

Nate: Definitely it's closely associated with that. Almost fundamentally because it's one of the things that I do most. Um, but you know, come winter I'm going to be snowboarding a lot, so then it's kind of— it shifts to snow. It's, it's just that functionality about it. And this is one of the, one of the biggest challenges of the brand is describing what it is. What, what is it? A skate brand? Is it a snowboard brand? Is it a basketball brand? What is it? And it's like, it's one of those things where it's like my brother and I grew up doing everything, and we still do everything. Like, you know, we can we can go to the Prahran courts and we know most of the people that are the heads down there, they know us. Like, and we can—

Josh: Prahran courts being basketball courts, not like the— not like courts as in the court system. Yeah, when we're—

Nate: so like, you know, like we've played ball down there for ages and we know most of the boys down there and we can get on the courts and we can, you know, like we can play with them. And like, like we can hold our own a little bit. And then, you know, you go skating and, you know, most of the— I can go to most skate parks and talk to anyone there. Or, you know, you go to the snow and, and, you know, we're pretty handy snowboarders because we've done a few seasons. And there's just so many different things that we're kind of into, um, that, that kind of plug into the brand. And like describing that, because people always want it— they want things defined, you know. What is this? What is this? What is this about?

Josh: What's this?

Nate: What's the mean? And It wasn't until like 3 or 4 years ago that we realised the thing that ties it all in is that we're just relentless in what we do. Whatever we fixate our eyes on, we're progression whores. We just, we just crave getting better. Yeah, I'm not the best skater going around, but I fucking love getting better at it. Yeah, it's so fun just like sitting there trying something 100 times and then you get it. Yeah, and then you're like, okay, let's get it better, let's get it better, let's get it better. It's like, it's priceless. I love it. I get off on it. And then like once you kind of, you kind of get you get that feeling of progression, then you start thinking about it all the time. All right, what's next? What's next? What's next? What's next? And that's what the brand's been, you know, like, it's the only way to describe it. It's like you start in the garage, you know, you create something from nothing, and now it's, you know, like, got full, full, full, 4 full-time employees, you know, a couple of my best friends are living off us now, working for us, you know. We've given this space back right in the heart of Brunswick for people to skate.

Josh: That's awesome.

Nate: It's free. Like, if you're a customer or if you're a person we know, just come and skate, you know, don't worry about it.

Tommy: Like, yeah, I hope my kid gets into skating and mine will be outdoor stuff. Like, I think there is, like, like you're saying, there's lessons in skating that are applied to life and business, you know.

Nate: Shit yeah.

Tommy: Dropping in, breaking your arm, I'll try again.

Nate: Yeah, well, it's like analysing it.

Tommy: And I was just, I was just outlining Josh's first skating Yeah, drops in first time, breaks arm.

Nate: When you describe that to me, I was thinking to myself, man, I can just see what's going to happen. He's going to go in, he's going to slip, and he's going to fly up in the air.

Josh: Like, how do I, how do I enter into this whole thing if I want to?

Nate: If I was to start skating, I think we'd start off by just getting you learning how to push and kind of stand on the board and be safe on the board.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: And then there's kind of little progression things that you learn, like you learn to try and turn around on this.

Josh: Have you known of a 28-year-old to pickups skating. Yeah, 28.

Nate: A bunch of, um, a bunch of girls that are just starting to get into skateboarding have been skating at our place a little bit, and they're progressing like crazy.

Tommy: Like, I feel like they're probably ex-gymnasts, or they've got something so advantageous to start young based on your centre of gravity, just getting that familiarity with your, your balance, your sense of balance. Yeah, I mean, Josh stayed inside more more so than when outdoors as a kid.

Josh: Yeah, well, I had a very high— I had a bike, but it had an alarm system.

Tommy: Oh yeah, so which you liked more than the actual bike itself.

Josh: And the problem was that the kid— the skateboard kids who lived next door to me was like— my bike never got stolen until I got that alarm system because it would say stolen bike, and I would be running and chasing them as I would ride around.

Nate: They wanted to fuck with you. Yeah.

Josh: And so, but I do, like, I always wanted to like get into skateboarding. I remember mum and dad bought me one. It was just real fucking fat. It was like a fat board. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nate: It was like one kick. Yeah, it was like a banana board almost.

Tommy: Yeah. How much is a skateboard these days? So I bought one in years.

Nate: Most people pay about, you know, $120 for the deck, then I think a pair of trucks probably $90.

Josh: Yeah, I could get into this. I could imagine buying like kitting out my board That's pretty—

Tommy: but then you have to skate on it.

Josh: Yeah, well, that's the whole thing. I've got a bike, I don't ride that. True.

Tommy: Is it— I feel like you've built something that allows you to do something you love heaps, which, like, that skateboarding thing, it's like—

Nate: yeah, it's just, it's an aspect of life that I love doing. I love skating and it's fun as fuck, you know, whether I'm, you know, the coolest, best, greatest skater going around. Fuck, I don't give a shit about that. Yeah, I just care. I just like it because it's fun, because I like the progression of it, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: That's what I'm addicted to. I'm addicted to the progression. I'm addicted to getting better at something, you know, refining my craft, whether I'm good or not. I don't give a shit about that.

Tommy: How much were you thinking about business as a kid?

Nate: Business as a kid? Not really. I would say Alex was sharper than me.

Tommy: This is your brother?

Nate: Yeah, my brother. He's, so he's kind of like, everyone always describes us as yin and yang, you know, like I'm kind of emotional, aggressive, out there, and he's kind of analytical, reserved, calm. Um, always analysing things. And like, you know, like if you kind of had to symbolise us, you'd always say he's the brain of Itch Pig and I'm the heart. That's kind of how it works. And we're very— we bounce off each other, um, very much so like that. So yeah, I, I guess I did.

Tommy: He said the same.

Nate: It's often—

Tommy: he want to be the heart?

Nate: I don't think— I don't think he wants to be the heart. He doesn't want to— he doesn't want— he doesn't have any interest in what I'm doing, I don't think.

Tommy: That's why he's not here today.

Nate: We're just gonna rag on him.

Josh: No, no, no, um, no, I, I, I think reconciling shit in Xero right now.

Nate: It's funny, you know, I'm the one that fucking lives in Xero. Oh really? I'm the one that I do our payroll and shit. It's fucking, it's, it's been an interesting time. We were in, we were on MYOB there for a while. Somehow we'd managed to score a free version of MYOB.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: And then we've kind of transitioned over to the whole Xero thing and you've got to learn about how that all works. Yeah, yeah, God.

Josh: Anyway, well, in regards to the business stuff, was there a big learning from the guys who were, you know, making everything out of your mum's garage to paying for taxes and shit like that? Is there a big fucking trip in the middle?

Nate: It's fucked. Yeah, you know, like, I remember, I remember when in about year 1 or year— I think it was year 2— we finally registered enough turnover for GST, which is, you know, $75 grand a year or whatever it is. And even just going through that, because like when we first started, we were rolling off my sole trader ABN that I had as a Pizza Hut delivery job.

Tommy: Amazing. Like, look, this guy's doing well for pizza delivery, $75K a year.

Josh: I hope it went through as like, um, like on the actual transaction, like Pizza Hut Newport or something.

Nate: That's actually the fucking pizza I used to work at.

Josh: Really?

Nate: Yeah, I worked there from about age 15 to about 1920. Yeah, yeah, I was— I did everything there. I was a dough bitch, I was fucking making pizzas, I ended up being a delivery driver.

Tommy: Was it an all-you-can-eat?

Nate: No, it wasn't. It was just a small shitty one.

Josh: Okay.

Nate: Yeah, so you're making sure it's still there.

Josh: So you're using your ABN for that. So what were— what were the big learnings through that whole process?

Nate: One of the hardest things is charging your friends. It's really hard when you're beginning and, and, and And I remember that was one of the things Alex was just— I don't know, it's funny now because I'm, I'm, I'm pretty good at it, you know, like I'm pretty good at saying the price, this is it. And, and some would say I'm a bit of a smartass and I'm pretty aggressive with selling, you know, that's kind of what I'm really good at. Anyway, I remember when we started, I sucked at it. Like, I felt bad asking people for money. I couldn't do it at all. And but I don't know how Alex— Alex somehow brainwashed me. I don't know, he's— it's weird. But he was really good and really ruthless at it. And I remember just thinking to myself, slow but surely. I remember someone's told me, you know, if they're your friends, they'll want to see you do well. They're happy to give you the money. They want to see you prosper and succeed. Yeah, that's a sign of a true friend. The one that asks you for free shit and discounts, fuck them right off.

Josh: Have you had to have hard conversations with people who are taking the piss?

Nate: Nah, nah, I, I haven't, to be honest, because people— I'm pretty honest and I'm pretty straight up and I'm pretty transparent. Yeah, like As soon as you come into my presence, you know where I stand. Yeah, I feel like that. I've never really had someone take the piss out of me, to be honest. I've never had to have that conversation, but I'm sure I will at some stage. Yeah, I mean, that doesn't mean I haven't been fucked over. Like, I remember a while back, you know, like, I sent a bunch of stuff to this guy, this really good skater in Canada, you know, kind of got my ear, and, you know, I thought, you know, this guy's a good guy, blah blah blah. And of course he just sold all the shit we sent him. Oh really? Yeah, $700 worth of shit, and he just sold it all. That's the world, and that's the lesson you learn, you know. That's, that's what I'm saying. It's like from, from day zero to now, the amount of lessons that I have learned, you couldn't count them. Yeah, because you learn something new every day, and if, if not 2 or 3, 4, 5 times, you know. Like when you're on day zero, you think, well, shit, we've got to sell this for this price, it's got to mark up this because we've got to pay for this, pay for this, pay for that. And then you learn another lesson, you know, like this is how you This is, you know, say you've kept all your receipts in a box and all the receipts are fucked now because they faded over time, you know.

Tommy: That's a problem with the tax department even wanting people to keep receipts. They fade, bro. Yeah, it's ridiculous. Um, how so? Because I feel like you've got a tangible product. You can show somebody, here it is, feel it, smell it, touch it. Yeah, you know, I've experienced that early in my career of being a filmmaker and selling my— it's myself, right? Which essentially all products have something behind it that is you'd feel like you're selling yourself. What was that that you— what was that sort of penny drop moment for you where you realise that you could and were okay with selling yourself? You said your brother brainwashed you, but it's like, I think there is something, a realization, or it's actually probably pretty late in the company, to be honest.

Nate: Like We just kind of, I guess, we chased this idea of just trying to make something out of nothing, trying to, I guess, get it to the stage where we could start taking money out of the business. Because, you know, like I said before, yeah, we hit the mark of $75 grand for GST, but that just meant we turned over that much. Yeah, we didn't make any fucking money. Like, we didn't pay ourselves for the first 2 years, I reckon. Like, and then after that, it started doing okay and we started pulling money out. And we started kind of, I guess, making money. And then it's still, even then, like 3, 4, 5, where we started making good money and started actually living, we didn't, I didn't see myself as this seller or whatever, or this light bulb moment. It's probably actually recently, to be honest, in the last 12 months that I figured, holy shit, you know, I'm actually, you know, I'm okay at talking to people. I can, I can tell a story. I can convince people of, of, of a message that I'm pushing. I can connect with people, you know, like I've ended up on this podcast and, uh, you know, like through whatever degrees of separation, yeah, I've ended up here. And, and that's the last 12 months has probably been a bit of a light bulb moment where it's like, these are the things that I need to do to get us to the next stage, and these are the assets that I have that I'm good at that I need to exploit and exaggerate, I guess.

Tommy: There's a bunch of convincing for yourself. Like, I feel then I don't think there's any amount of time that is the exact amount of time for someone to convince themselves that they are good or they are doing or selling this thing that is great. It's, um, it's like an evolution.

Nate: Yeah, it's an evolution. Like, you know, like, I guess through years 3, 4, 5, I realised I was different now, and I could, I could, well, for instance, I could talk to girls way easier. Like, I know that sounds really kind of shallow, but like, you know, in my early years I was not a shy kid, but I wasn't amazing with, with, with talking to people. And, you know, once Itchpig kind of got a bit— I noticed my skill set had changed so drastically and dramatically. Like, I was so able to extract information out of people without sounding like a fucking robot. Like, I could, I could kind of get stuff out of people, react to it, interpret it, assimilate with what they were saying, and then build on that. And then, you know, like, after a while I got so much better at that that, you know, you could kind of just start— I don't know, you just not get what you want out of this, but you could get things out of— I don't know, it's hard to describe without saying like some kind of manipulative fucking psychopath.

Josh: How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Tommy: No, but I think if your intentions are right and I think social skills is what you described.

Nate: Yeah, social skills in a weird way, trying to describe that I'm social that I can't even describe.

Josh: Are you friends with other Melbourne clothing brands? Is that a community?

Nate: I'm trying to actually— that's one of the big focuses the last 6 months is actually trying to give back a little bit more and not be so like, fuck you, you know?

Tommy: Like, have you been in the past?

Nate: Yeah, we're pretty competitive. Me and Alex are pretty ferocious people. Like, it's dog eat dog. And I guess in the beginnings we were very like, fuck you, we don't need no one, we'll do this ourselves.

Josh: Is that a West Side thing? I feel like there's like a little bit like that, maybe the blue collar scrap.

Nate: There is, there is. Because, you know, like, I mean, this is going to sound bad, and I'm not hating on these people because good on them for growing up where they grow up, but, you know, like, I didn't go to Xavier College where you know, my best friend's dad is the fucking CEO of whatever, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't just get, you know, all this money in my pocket and I could go start some, I don't know, teeth whitening business or something like that. And, you know, I just hated on someone that I shouldn't have, so I'm sorry.

Josh: Well, I definitely— another example, I definitely relate because I, you know, went to a low socioeconomic school in the southeast, and it's interesting where it's like And I think maybe you're experiencing the same thing, which is like I had a lot of sort of fuck you to all of, to that system and being self-made and I'll make it work and all that sort of thing. Tommy's on the other side where he went to private schools.

Tommy: I didn't go to Xavier.

Josh: He didn't go to Xavier.

Tommy: I went to Wesley, but I've thought a lot about the same. I've thought a lot about this stuff. It is just two sides of the coin because I grew up middle-class family. My parents weren't rich. They made some good choices and worked hard to send me to private school. But the kids I went to school with, super rich. But I look back now observing what these kids are doing. Some of them are doing absolutely fuck all. And yeah, they're hating life and they're on drugs, but there is a bunch of kids that I went to school with that are killing it, and they've adopted some work ethic or just a belief. It could be a self-belief, right? It's like you want to be around good people, and I feel like I was going to kids' houses mansions, you know, like, and observing this and saying, why can't I have this? This is not my reality. But I was thinking it was like a— it's the proximity effect. So when you do grow up in those environments, as much as there is some sort of, you know, all the kids posting photos of the houses they've bought, no chance they've saved up the money.

Nate: They've got a million dollar, you know, it keeps like Trump says, you know, with a fucking small investment of $10 million, I built this out.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, like who are you kidding? I think $10 million fucking dollars! I was listening to Kevin Hart and Joe Rogan yesterday where he's come from nothing— Kevin Hart, you know, food stamps and hard times in America with his upbringing— to a point where he's the most famous guy, one of the most famous guys in the world, super rich. But he's looking at the struggles that his kids are going to now have because they don't have a struggle.

Nate: No, they don't. It's like, it's like, you know, like, um, yeah, like you think about— because I, you know, I'm a diehard NBA, NBA follower, and I think about some of those, some of those kids. And like, well, I often always thought, you know, how can every NBA player not be fucking like— you know, like there's still, for instance, there's still players in the NBA they can't fucking shoot. How does— how the fuck can you be in the NBA and you can't fucking shoot? Yeah, you know what I mean? What do you have to do in your day that like gets in the way of that? Yeah. And it's because like not everyone— fundamentally, every— some people treat it like a job. Some people are just stoked to get there. They just, you know, they've got their time elsewhere. Then, you know, they're not, you know, ruthless and relentless in what they're kind of going for. They're just kind of happy to kind of get there. And it's that whole thing about You know, like some people fucking want it and they just keep going and going and going, and they're gamblers. Like, like, not many people know Jordan's— Michael Jordan's a degenerate gambler.

Tommy: Really? Like a punter? He actually—

Nate: he's fucking ferocious. Like, like, because he's so hungry.

Josh: I saw him at the TAB the other day having a crack midday, all on balls.

Nate: Yeah. And it's like there's just so many different personalities, and, and I guess I always say that, you know, money exaggerates the type of person you are. You're either a fucking prick or you're really generous, or, you know, you're— it enhances your work ethic or it just makes you even lazier, you know what I mean? It just kind of, I guess, it amplifies what it is that makes you be, I guess. And, and like, yeah, I understand where you're coming from because, yeah, you were surrounded by all this but you didn't buy into the bullshit and you, you had to work harder to kind of keep up— not keep up with the Joneses, but, you know, like, you kind of saw what was possible. And that was one of the things that maybe I was a little bit stunted with, was like all that business crap, all those kind of types of people around me. And again, I didn't come from the most working-class family. Like, my parents, you know, pretty smart, and they make a pretty good living, but, you know, like there wasn't many handouts, you know. Like, Dad helped me along the way, and so did Mum and whatnot. But, you know, like, it's like Dad, he's like, you know, he kind of always says, you know, you sure I can't give you some money to help you out? Dad, no, I don't want it. It's, it's, it's a Band-Aid. It's, it's, it's fake. It's not real, you know what I mean?

Josh: Does he want to sponsor the Daily Talk Show? Has he got a brand? Has he got a business or anything?

Nate: No, he doesn't have a business. And that's the funny thing is neither, he thinks he's always said, you know, you guys are fucking crazy for doing this. He thinks we're nuts. Like he can't fathom it. It's just not who he is.

Tommy: The straw that broke the camel's back was probably the skate park in your office.

Josh: Was that a stretch? Was it like getting that was, what's been those big stretches for you? Like Tommy and I have just taken out a lease on a new place. That's a little bit of a stretch.

Nate: That was our first one for sure. That second fact, That first factory. So the storey goes was we were in mum's garage, we were starting to do okay, and then it's so lame, it's— I'm almost embarrassed about it, but our dog died. Our childhood dog died. And me and Alex just kind of somehow banded together like Band of Brothers and like, dude, what are we doing? Like, let's just take this seriously. It wasn't like we were fucking around.

Josh: Sounds like a movie. Like, I think that the Itch Pig movie, I could imagine the first scene.

Nate: I would love for someone to approach us about a doco.

Tommy: It's a bit like John Wick, but you don't end up killing everybody because your dog got killed.

Josh: Is that what happened?

Tommy: Dog died and then he loses.

Josh: This is the third time you've mentioned John Wick.

Tommy: I will say, not to bring down your dog's death, Logan Paul's dog just got taken by coyote.

Nate: Really?

Josh: That's full-on.

Tommy: That dog has 2.1 million followers on Facebook— Instagram, sorry.

Nate: Shit.

Tommy: But anyway, sorry, that's a big hole in the market.

Nate: Shit, someone's gonna have to take up all that 2.1 million followers.

Tommy: Your dog's passed away?

Nate: Yes, a dog passed away, and we're— I remember we were like, we're literally digging the hole on a hot day in Mum's backyard, me and Alex, you know, trying to bury this fucking dog.

Josh: Like, because that's what you have to do, right? Because I've never thought— I've never had a dog die when I've been an adult. Yeah, you're gonna fucking get rid of it.

Nate: Well, and this, this dog was like— it wasn't like a small— like, it was 30 kilos, 35 kilos.

Tommy: What was it?

Nate: It was a Springer Spaniel, but it was pretty overweight. My mum's— you shouldn't say this, but my mum, you know, she's Maltese, she's she's good at feeding the creatures around her, including me and Alex, you know. So yeah, the dog got fed a lot.

Tommy: But, um, but that wasn't the cause of the death?

Nate: No, it wasn't the cause of death.

Josh: The dog got diabetes.

Nate: Yeah, I think— yeah, no, no, it didn't. I hope— no, I shouldn't say that because my mum will fucking kill me because she will listen to this because she loves me. Um, yeah, so we buried the dog and we're just like, you know what, fuck it, let's just— let's get out of here, let's do this properly and let's give this a real crack. And we took out It's so funny, the place we found was, looking back on it, it wasn't even a risk, but it was a massive risk for us because, you know, it was like $1,600 per month, which again is fuck all, but to us, you know, like we're 20, I think I was 23 and Alex was 21. Yeah, we took out this lease, we started looking, we found this place, and the thing that was so funny, the place we ended up in, right, So it was off Sunshine Road near Tottenham Station, which I'm sure you both— you have no fucking idea.

Tommy: I know Tottenham.

Nate: Yeah, okay, so it's off just near Tottenham Station. So the first street you turn into is Sarah Grove, and that's my mother's first name, right? The second street you turn into, James Court, is my dad's first name, which is just like so fucking weird.

Tommy: Stars have aligned.

Nate: Yeah, I said— I remember, I remember I said it to Alex.

Josh: What was the moon doing at that point?

Tommy: It was shining bright.

Josh: Yeah, it's definitely a bit.

Nate: Yeah, it was pretty weird. So as soon as I saw that, I was like, well, fuck, you know. Well, you know, classic me being superstitious and kind of fucking airy-fairy like that. And Alex just didn't take any notice of it. I was like, you know, like—

Tommy: That's the brain, the heart.

Nate: Yeah, yeah, the heart and brain thing. And I was just like, you know, like, this is— we're going to end up here, this is for sure. And then sure enough, one of the— across the— because it was like an industrial estate, you know, like those kind of those U-shapes or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Um, literally across the car park was a manufacturer.

Josh: Oh, great.

Nate: That we still use today.

Tommy: Oh, that's cool. Well, I feel like how much of it is conjuring a storey to make you okay with this added pressure?

Josh: Decision.

Tommy: Yeah, 'cause I look at what we've just gone into and I was thinking this, I was thinking we need a multi-level space, different rooms, and it's like, it is what I was thinking. And it went.

Nate: And it came true, right?

Tommy: It was on the market and then it got taken off and then Josh messaged me, he's like, it's back on the market. And then we ended up— we've ended up signing it. Sick. How much is that me just going, this is how we're getting—

Josh: it's probably a bit of our delusion. Yeah, that serves us.

Nate: But that's how it works. Like, literally 3 weeks ago I said— I said to everyone at work, and I said— I started on this warpath. I said, I'm gonna get myself on a fucking podcast. Yeah, I'm gonna do it. And 3 weeks later, yeah, this is the second one I've been on.

Tommy: Because did they say, what's a fucking podcast?

Nate: I hope not.

Tommy: I hope not.

Josh: Otherwise, my mom did.

Nate: She's like, what's a podcast? Is it like YouTube? I was like, no, Mom, it's like this.

Tommy: She said, don't worry, man, we got you. You have it on YouTube too.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

Nate: And that's why I came on this one. It ticks both boxes, my mom, so she can't miss it, you know.

Josh: Do you look at storeys like American Apparel and stuff like that and deconstruct where things go wrong for those businesses?

Nate: It's hard with those kind of businesses because it's like what you're saying before. There's so much fat. Yeah, there's so much fat. Like, you just, like, at some point, you know, you got that much fat on you, you get unhealthy and you die. It's that simple. It's like—

Tommy: and the fat being the bulk of the business.

Nate: Yeah, the bulk of the business. Too much, too many employees, too many stores.

Josh: They went public and everything. Like, it's just, it's a lot, right?

Nate: Too many overheads. You know, you're going against faster, smarter businesses now. You know, like, you know, why is someone going to buy an unbranded American Apparel thing versus a really cheap H&M thing? You know, you can't beat that. Or Uniqlo or whatever, right? Um, and yeah, that's, that's, that's just kind of how the cookie crumbles. Like, if you're not dynamic and ahead of everyone, you're dead. Yeah, it's, it's really ruthless like that. And it's kind of funny how, like, that's what we've kind of built us ourselves on, is that we're just super dynamic, super, super fast. Like, I remember about a year ago, we got a couple of consultants in to kind of help me with some ideas that I had had. I wanted to build this kind of custom messaging thing that we use to directly message people. It kind of amplifies my brain and allows me to hit more people way more efficiently.

Josh: Anyway, you are a fucking robot just plugged into the mainframe.

Nate: But so one of the things he said was like, he was saying, because he's used to working with like IBM and all these big corporates, and he was saying, and he was saying that like, I need access to all this stuff. I said, oh fuck, no worries, here you go. Yeah, go off, go, go do it. And he was just like, whoa, I wasn't expecting that. And he was like, he said to me he got more work done with us in 2 weeks than he did at the other place in 4 months.

Tommy: Wow, because he's having to cheque with 7 people to make anything happen.

Nate: He said to get the access to actually even start doing the work took him 4 fucking weeks because I had to go to the person above them, the person above them, and the person above that, and then like someone didn't like it, and then it's just like, yeah, it's just that, that those levels, those mass organisational pyramids that just slow shit down. They're like, you know, like this world, and I think this world is going to become more like this, is it's going to be a whole bunch of series of dynamic speedboats, you know, businesses being speedboats rather than these massive oil tankers that take forever to react to anything. Yeah.

Josh: Have you ever had to cut the fat in Itch Pig so far?

Nate: Yep. Yeah, yeah, we have. It was pretty, it was pretty, um, that was one of the, one of the many things you learn is just like, and I swear by it now, it's that whole notion of, you know, you know, like The analogy is, is, you know, when you're on the aeroplane and you're about to take off and they're doing the safety demonstrations or whatever, and they say, when the oxygen comes down, make sure you put yours on first because you can't help anyone if you're dead. Yeah, it's the same with us. It's the same with business. It's like, at some point, if I'm not fucking breathing, well, I can't help all you guys anyway. Yeah. So to save— I know it sounds like fucking Captain America or whatever, but to save the majority, sometimes you have to sacrifice a few, and that's really hard to do. That really sucks. And we've had to do that, um, with, um, the workforce, with staff. We've had to do it with customers. Like, for instance, you know, like, as, as, like, we started on tall clothing, you know, and we made our name on tall clothing.

Tommy: And, and tall being long, long garments.

Nate: Yeah, long garments. And like, you know, that was our thing. We made a fuckload of money off it.

Josh: Um, is it designed specifically for tall people?

Nate: Well, it's just, you know, like when, when the first clothing companies were designed and, and, and built or whatever, you know, people were really wide and 5 foot 5, 5 foot 6. But humans aren't like that anymore. Like, you know, we walk in and all of us are what, around the 6-foot mark, right? Like, the human physiology has changed, so we kind of adapted to kind of be built around that and go for that small little niche. You know, we don't need to hit everyone or whatever. And one of the things was tall clothing started going out of fashion, it started going out of trend within our core audience. And, you know, we had a shitload of customers that were still craving it, and we decided to cut it. We had to sever it like it was fucked. Like, we chopped out a massive portion of the business to save another portion, and that was the way we went. And that was really hard to do, and it fucking hurt us really bad.

Tommy: And did it work though?

Nate: Yeah, it's worked. Now we're, now we're, um Yeah, we're in a great position and we're in a great spot and we're doing lots of different things and we're able to hit different people. We're able to, you know, hit a bigger majority of, of, um, of audience and segment.

Tommy: How much clearer are you guys now of what success looks like than when you first started? In terms of like what, even just personally for you and your brother, where the ship's going? Yeah, what, where, yeah, what direction you're heading in.

Nate: We're, um, we're in a good spot now. It's funny, in the last— again, like I was saying to you when I first came in here, you've caught me at a pretty interesting time where we're changing a lot of things, where we're doing a lot of things that would rip other businesses absolutely in half. But because we're so dynamic—

Josh: what do those things look like?

Nate: So one of the things is, instead of being— so at the moment, last, last, I don't know, say, let's say 12 months, for argument's sake. We've been dropping 2 releases a week. Now that's fucking fast. Yeah, that's really fast. Like, Alex is having to design and have things manufactured and run production for 2 releases a week for 12 months. And then that means I have to then, you know, for instance, the logistics of it, just like the basic logistics, is the product comes in, you have— well, before that, sorry, it's— it gets designed, you gets manufactured. He's got to manage it all. He's got to make sure all the trims are right. He's got to make sure all the grading's right, all the numbers. Then it comes in, then it's going to get photoed, then I've got to start pre-ordering it, then it's, you know, it goes on the website. I've got to start telling the story. We're going to start marketing it. We're doing that twice a week.

Josh: It's crazy.

Nate: It's fucked. Yeah, it's insane pace.

Josh: What's the planning that goes— do you, you know, every year sit down and map out the next 12 months?

Nate: Or what? This is going on like, like you guys, every fucking day. We're fucking running at 110%. Like we've been running at 110% for 9 years. It's, it's nuts. It's like the stamina involved and like the just the sheer kind of, I don't know, like it's amazing we haven't snapped in half, but we're still going. But so anyways, one of the things we're focusing on now is we've realised that, you know, to, to get to the next level, because we've gotten to this ceiling, we've gotten to this place where we've kind of, I feel like we've maximised what we can do. We've I always describe us as we're like a big fish in a really fucking small pond. We're kind of trapped in this pond. We've fucking— we've eaten all the food in the pond, like, because, you know, like, we're just, we're just really good at that. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to find a new pond, which is a new audience, right? That's the metaphor there.

Josh: Yeah. Is the pond, like, at the moment, do you think— is it the skating community? Are you in a skate bowl at the moment?

Nate: I think so. I think it's like, it's just a It's a niche within Australia that's Australian-wide, you know. For whatever the parameters are that people hear of us, we've almost maximised all of them. We're getting new customers, but for us to get to the next big step, which is what we want to do, and let's start creating some noise and put, you know, Melbourne, Australia on the map as a clothing brand and, and start really selling globally, um, we need to slow down the releases and rely more on our core items, which we haven't had in— like, we haven't treated as core. So like, for instance, our best product is this hoodie in black. Yeah, we have literally had this hood in black in stock, I think it's for 72 hours this year.

Josh: Wow, it's fucked.

Nate: Yeah, like, it's unheard of.

Josh: Is that— or is it good controlling your—

Nate: well, that's the thing, we thought it was good because we were basing our model off, you know, Supreme and supply and demand, all this stuff, right? But the thing is, is like, we're not supreme. We can't run like that. We can't. We've had to change our strategy, you know. Like, again, like, I probably shouldn't be on this podcast talking about our flaws, but fuck it, you know. I'm an open, honest guy. I don't give a shit. I don't give a fuck, you know. Like, the people out there that— I'm not saying your audience would hate on me, but, you know, the people out there that know what I'm going through know what I'm going through. But the people that— the naysayers, it's like, well, Fuck you, you're not doing it. So, you know, if you flip them off. But so one of the things we're trying to do is we're going to try and slow it down so that, you know, it gives us time to think, to plan, to, to put more time into things, to do bigger collaborations, to think about, you know, well, if we want to have a pop-up store in Japan, how do you actually physically do that? If you want to build a relationship with a podcast or whatever, or, you know, even start my own podcast where does the time for that go? Because right now my time is so saturated with just stuff day in, day out. It's like there's, there's two types of, of, um, employees in a business, right? And you guys will know this because you guys will both struggle with both of this. There's operations and then there's strategy. The more you guys can be strategy, the better your business will be, but it's harder to do, right? You guys often get stuck in the nitty-gritty, in the operations, the days, right? Actually doing shit. And that's the thing we're trying to transition from, is not being so heavily operations-based. And it's tricky because it costs you money because, you know, no one makes more money than you, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: You guys are fucking good at your job.

Tommy: No one who does it— no one does it better than us. Exactly. But that's what you think for a long time.

Nate: Yeah. And then it's like you gotta learn to relinquish control.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: You gotta learn to compromise, you gotta be better as managerial people, then you're kind of splitting your time between, you know, getting shit done, making money, and managing someone, and then you get your strategy staff. So that's kind of where we're at the moment. It's like we're really trying to focus on, you know, having Alex and I, who are probably, you know, obviously the best two people at the business to tackle, well, how do we get an international market? What are the things that we need to do? Who are the people that we need help with to go find? Because One of the things that we've always struggled with is we're really good at selling and, and, and making sales, and Alex makes a fucking amazing product, which I'm sure you two now know what I'm talking about, right? But we haven't really had anyone in the middle meet us with marketing because, A, we haven't needed to because the product speaks for itself, it just sells itself, um, and B, it's actually the hardest problem in the room. It's easier just to kind of say, fuck, I gotta make, I gotta make the X amount of dollars today to keep the business running. Where it's really, that's, that's, that's a scapegoat. It's not cheating, but it's just taking the easy way out. And so what we've tried to focus on doing is, you know, allocating portions of the day, you know, 2 hours a day on— we call it future, future shit. What's, what's tomorrow going to look like? What's, you know, 2 weeks away going to look like? And that's, that's one of the big things is that we're focusing on at the moment is trying to trying to enhance that. And I'm sure you guys have— well, I'm not sure, I know you guys have had people on this podcast that are fucking killing that. They're really good at it.

Josh: And we can get whiplash from like switching between— yeah, have you found that? Like the residual sort of, uh, mental strain of going from thinking about strategic and 5 years ahead and how we're going to get into X amount market versus reality of we actually need to fulfil this order today?

Nate: Um, I haven't, I haven't kind of gotten that. One of the things that I'm really good at, even though everyone around me doesn't agree with me, it's one of those classic things, right? Um, I feel like I can, I can manage a lot of things at any one time.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: And, and that even when I'm talking to people on Facebook or whatever, trying to, trying to make sales or whatever, I can easily manage 10 conversations at once flat out, you know, whilst doing something else.

Tommy: Until you call Peter Dave and he says, fuck you, you don't know me.

Nate: Yeah, or you send someone the wrong link with someone else's details and you're like, oh shit.

Tommy: Well, something Josh and I do is we try and dedicate time that we know we're going to spend on talking about the future stuff.

Nate: Yeah.

Tommy: But then like anything, there's a moment where we get in a conversation Next minute we've spent an hour because it's like we don't want to lose this, and you're on the tangent.

Nate: So one thing that we always do— and well, sorry, one thing that we've kind of implemented lately and it works really well, and it just seems like such a no-brainer, and you know, it's kind of embarrassing saying it, but write down the actuals. So if you're going to have an hour conversation, sure, that's sweet, that's fine, but what are the actuals? What are the actual things that's going to start you on that journey to getting you to the path that you want to get to? Whether that's, you know, one thing, one thing, you know, 3 weeks ago I said I'm going to get myself on a podcast. Now that's all very well and good, you know, kumbaya, let's hold hands, right?

Tommy: We can if you want.

Josh: Well, you sort of did motion it.

Nate: Yeah, and you guys kind of—

Tommy: and we're okay with that, you know, we do that. Yeah, we're supportive.

Josh: I'm just trying— I just got triggered to a moment the other day where someone put their hand out and I thought they were going to shake my hand, but we were getting our tyres changed and it was the guy from Kmart Tyre and Auto and he was wanting the— he goes, 'Oh, we're gonna need this beforehand.' It was the keys, but he put his hand out and Bree knocked my hand down as I went to shake it. Anyway, I just got triggered in that moment of that. Um, well, she sort of saved it because it was sort of— it was subtle enough that I don't think that he He saw it. He saw what happened.

Nate: The embarrassment. Exactly.

Josh: Yeah. Anyway, so, um, what were we talking about?

Tommy: Holding hands.

Nate: Holding hands.

Josh: Holding hands. Yeah.

Nate: So, you know, I'm saying, you know, I'm going to get myself on these podcasts, right? So one of the, the actuals that I did from— I mean, that was kind of like a self-meeting, but one of the actual things that I've done and I've implemented in the past is when someone asks you, how's your day going? What are you working on at work? I actually say it. I don't say, oh yeah, I'm good, things are great. Yeah, busy, busy. Everyone says that, right? You say, you say something, oh, how's it going, man? Yeah, good. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. I actually make a conscious effort to actually talk about what I'm doing.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: And then, then you get people actually going, well, oh, I know someone that did it, or this is interesting. And then you're actually starting to get information and ideas from someone almost for free.

Tommy: Yeah, I have done that. I've had like a time where I've consciously put that in place for a couple of days.

Nate: Yeah, I do it all the time in and out.

Tommy: But it's interesting, so I mean, if everyone did it, you'd probably have a whole bunch of conversations.

Josh: Long cafe lines.

Tommy: Yeah, how are you, mate? Mate, I'm bad, let me tell you about it.

Nate: Yeah, yeah, I mean, there is that obviously, but I mean, it comes down to that thing about— it was like what you were saying about before, that light bulb moment. Look, once I started actually doing that and talking about what I'm talking I'd always get this reaction like, Jesus fuck, you're doing a lot of shit. Yeah, that's fucking interesting. Wow, that's exciting. And like, and then at that point I realized, without saying like a dick again, like, I'm like, I'm an interesting, engaging person that people, some, most of the time genuinely want to help. They want to talk to, and I'm aware of that now.

Tommy: Well, if people's intentions, like, if I would be up for helping someone if they asked. Like, yeah, maybe it's— we've— so there's a marketing approach which Josh and I have never gone down, which is essentially asking people if they need our help.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Which can— in Australia, I feel like when you, you know, the sales route is, you know, a bit stinky for a lot of people.

Nate: Yeah, marketing's hard because it's, it's such an intangible— it's black magic kind of stuff, you know? Like, people just—

Tommy: but it makes sense if you're just saying, hey guys, this is what we do, if you need a hand let us know. It's like, yeah, sure.

Josh: Well, because you can push back on it and saying, oh, say, well, stinky or whatever. But in some regards, it's just clearer communications. We've got this that we think that we can add value for. This is the actual thing. Sometimes Tommy and I can fall in the trap of being like, oh, we should try and do a video for them. Let's reach out to them about X, Y, and Z and maybe get involved. Like, rather than just fucking going directly to the thing and saying, this is—

Nate: do it.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: Like, if you think you can help me, just fucking show me. Yeah, show me what I'm weak at. Put together an example and say, hey man, I'm from such and such and such. I noticed you did this, this, this. This is what I reckon will help. Here's the thing. Yeah, just, you know, like, it's almost like a quote.

Tommy: It's like, if it's the only weapon in your arsenal, it's probably the wrong approach, because I think that's when we do see the stinky businesses that just they've built a business around direct sales.

Josh: Like, it's never one thing, right? I think that's the thing we're working out is anything, any piece of advice, the opposite is normally true as well. And it's like this fucking— it's toing and froing between everything, and that's the balance, right?

Nate: Definitely. I mean, that's how these, these, these guys that have helped me, you know, they're helping us design this app, they've helped me, um, get product onto certain influencers, they've helped me build this custom bot thing that maybe we could fucking sell later on. Like, that came from literally me at the start of this year saying, I've got 3 things that I, I need to sort. I need to build a skate park, I need to find priorities— priorities. Yeah, sorry. I need to build a skate park, I need to build an app, and I need to find Alex a design assistant. And anytime someone would ask me, what are you working on at work, or how's things, or whatever, I would make sure the conversation got to those 3 points.

Tommy: A good idea.

Josh: Yeah, it's great.

Nate: Make sure, like, yeah, like I just talk about it, actually talk about what's in my world. And it fucking— like, I got these guys, these guys came along, they fucking helped me out, and then they got in my ear about, you know, building the skatepark and doing it. And then, you know, sure enough, I'm building the skatepark with all my friends, I'm talking about it, and then one dumb night I'm fucking— I take a stupid selfie of myself eating Nando's with all the boys You know, it just so happens that, you know, the head of PR's, yeah, you know, following us, tells his mum, yeah, fuck, each picture they repost. Yeah. And then of course, um, they repost and bang, I'm on it. Yeah, I'm talking to them.

Josh: Yeah.

Nate: And they— and you know, you know those two girls, they're fucking amazing.

Josh: I think we're getting better. I think we're getting better and better at that, like with the daily talk show and what sort of thing. It's like at the beginning it seems like it's— you don't know where it's going to go and there's something, uh scary about communicating the direction, because if you don't make it, you look like a bit of a fucking idiot. Yeah, but what's the other option?

Nate: Yeah, what's the other option?

Tommy: You're looking like a fucking idiot.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Nate: You sit on your hands, you sit on your hands and you're fucking unhappy.

Josh: Absolutely. No, man, it'd be great to have you back on when we're, um, in the new office.

Tommy: Yeah, and I want to skate your park, and, um, I think Josh does too. Have you got knee pads?

Nate: Yeah, I've got knee pads in my car. Actually, I've got some at my house I can, I can bring in We need wrist pads, elbow, I want everything. Yeah.

Tommy: And we need to take out a different insurance policy before we go.

Josh: Yeah. Do many skaters have herniated discs and shit?

Nate: I reckon it would be a few.

Josh: Yeah, you'd think, right? That's why I feel like I see like you hear, ah, a marathon runner has two herniated discs. It's like, well, so do I. Mine just happened because I sat for too long and lifted some shit, but same, same. Each pig, mate.

Tommy: Just quickly, what you said, most things have a bit of a story. This itch pig that I'm touching, this is on my jumper.

Josh: What is this about? What are these?

Nate: So they're like skatepark features. So actually, this is designed by one of our long, long, long time customers who's now working for us as the graphic designer. He's just come out of Swinburne and he's— we're trying to teach him how to kind of help Alex a little bit. His name's Christian.

Tommy: He's—

Nate: it's funny, all three of his brothers have worked for us as well.

Tommy: It's awesome.

Nate: It's sick.

Tommy: And so the The letters are built of little skatepark pieces.

Nate: Yeah, like sawhorses, there's a ramp, there's a rail, there's another down rail.

Tommy: That's where Josh breaks his elbow.

Nate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's gonna break his elbow on that one.

Josh: Well, you fucking talk about it, it's gonna happen. We actually need to be like, Josh is going to be great at skating.

Nate: I think you're going to be amazing. Like, fucking brilliant.

Josh: Yeah, I hope.

Tommy: Okay, it's in my top 3 now. Anytime. How you going? Yeah, good, mate. I'm real pumped for Josh. He's going to be one of the best skaters in Melbourne.

Josh: I reckon there is definitely something in the push. If you think about it Imagine the moment Josh drops in.

Tommy: It's a big moment for him.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Don't you reckon?

Nate: It's crazy. Like we've had that moment in our— I've watched like, you know, a couple of girls that came 3 weeks ago. I watched them learn tricks for the first time. It's nuts. Like just like the joy on their face. She's like, oh my God, it's epic. It's like, it's crack.

Tommy: It's the new woman's footy.

Nate: Yeah.

Tommy: Women's footy.

Nate: Yeah, women's footy skateboarding.

Tommy: I wanna get my son like, But if we learn anything, or at least—

Nate: yeah, definitely.

Josh: But that doesn't mean I'm going to be like— if we use women's footy as an example, this doesn't mean that I can do it still because they're, they're all athletes. This is the problem.

Nate: But anyway, athletes only— it's a perception.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely. No, I think I'll be able to, I'll be able to do it. It's a Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: I agree, I agree.

Josh: Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, we'll see tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.

Nate: Bye.

Tommy: Peace.