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It's the daily Talk Show Episode 781. We can Banta and we got Ronan hiney on the show.

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Welcome. Welcome. Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys. So are you a lawyer? What's the difference between a lawyer and a solicitor?

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I don't know. Honestly, I don't

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I don't think there is a difference in Australia. Really? I mean, actually, yeah, no, no, like, yeah, I'm a lawyer. I guess. So. Do you go to like, we go to a court? No, so um, I won't but I can

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I can I

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I've committed a crime.

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Yes. So it's funny in Australia, it's um, you know, there's, there's actually is differences between people who go to go to court and don't so you know, you might have heard of counsel, barristers. So, barristers are the people who speak at court. And lawyers are the people who, you know, do the contracts and the research behind but in America, where most people think of lawyers, they can do it all lawyers go to court, you know, you've probably seen suits where they you know, get a case and they do everything from the research the contracts to then like, you know, sewing people and all sorts of fun st

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ff. I feel like you your business learner and the team that you have. They're, like the modern day fun version of lawyers, when you think of lawyers, I think of, you know, suits as in wearing them but also the TV show. Yeah, that's your background. You've come from being a suit. Is that is that a broad term to call somebody like when you wear a s

1:44
it? Did you get an add on? Not at all. I wasn't offended i thought was pretty cool at the start, and then I started to realise it was really annoying to wear a suit every day. But I started out as a corporate lawyer, I had one of the big law firms. Suit tie everyday was really cool when it got to a Friday and we had casual Fridays where we could take the tie off and just, you know, have one button open and that's ca

2:07
ual Friday. Tha

2:10
's, that's pretty much how I started out. So I was there for about four years before Yeah, starting Luna, which is sort of reinventing how legal and other services like accounting, finances and investment is down for entrepreneurs and start

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ps. With all the COVID-19 stuff that's happening. Are there certain legal things that have come out of that for start

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ps? Yeah, huge. Well, I mean, first of all, all of a sudden, with COVID-19 you could just basically stand people down. furloughed I hadn't even heard of these terms before COVID, where all of a sudden, you can just let your staff go and not pay them for a period of time. So that was kind of a huge thing. And then not, you know, a lot of the stuff with landlords and rents and not being able to turn up to work. It's Yeah, it's been a huge thing in the league. sp

3:01
ce. The old school sort of law game, I guess is, I mean, from the outside very complicated. It's like you got to pay somebody to think about it for you. Has there been a shift in law? For, I guess, the gronk out there just so it's all much easier for the common man to understand the common wo

3:23
an? I wish I could say yes. But it's actually it's such an institutional problem. I believe that it doesn't just change overnight with intent. So now you say a lot more. law firms and lawyers say, you know, instead of using billable hours charging, you know, a set fee, but, you know, the whole nature of the law is it's so institutionalised to think about yourself before the clients and your self worth and it's like a really deep seated issue. So I think it's I actually think Not too much. Most big law firms charge huge amounts. Most clients don't understand why they need those huge amounts. Most clients don't probably see the value. And a lot of people just avoid it because it's intimidating, unknown foreign meant to be super serious and super expensive. And I think it'll take a while to change. But there's more and more people, I guess, places like us that are starting to sort of reinvent what the whole service looks lik

4:27
. I mean, startups are quite scrappy. You think about that design services like Envato, where it's like, rather than going to a designer, you can get a template, you can just do it all yourself with legal stuff. How much of that? Can you do? Can I just obviously, there's these open source, legal docs. Can I even if I take if I get a contract from someone from my able to copy and paste contracts under their own copyright, how does this how does this w

4:55
rk? Yeah, well, it's pretty hard. So the truth is, there is Plenty of like open source stuff and you can sort of take a contract, but it's pretty hard to apply it to your circumstances. So just kind of, it's not like copying pasting a logo. I've got a logo here, now put it here. And it just, look just works. It needs to be changed to suit circumstances. And that's where the confusion lies, because some lawyers will come in and say you need to spend thousands of dollars to change your circumstances. But I believe it's just like small little changes that you know, with information and technology, people can do that themselves, but they just need people to provide them the information and technology to do

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it. So is it like I can imagine, say like, I've been doing video production for 15 years, and I remember the early days, people would just grab someone else's terms off their website and do a copy and paste job and you can do a, you know, a Google search where you quote this stuff and you can say the same terminology used time and time ag

6:00
in. You took a contract you'd had made and copied and paste. Yeah, y

6:02
ah. And you saw Yeah, cuz I saw like, um, you know, I paid a legal firm to put something together, and then put in there around New South Wales law. And I'm like, Hey guys, I'm in Victoria or whatever, can we have this updated? But you get the sense, like, the struggle that I've had in the past is it's like, am I paying huge amounts of cash for a template? And what's stopping me from going and copying and pasting, especially with privacy policies and what's happened in Europe with, you know, the expectation of, you know, mentioning cookies and stuff like that. copy and pasting. Is there. Is there a place for it at all? Like, if you're really scrappy and getting started? Is there a way of communicating this stuff? Where if you don't have 700 800 1000 bucks to sp

6:50
nd? Totally, well, I'll give you a funny story because you when you do copy and paste, so I'm about to say, yeah, sure, go for it. But it takes Don't do so we had a client that came to us once and he said, there's a competitor of mine. And I'm pretty sure they're just like, every time I get a new product, it's a furniture company. Every time I get a new product, he copies me, every time I changed my website, they copy me there. They're like, caught copying our search terms. And actually, I looked at these terms and conditions. And he's copied my terms and conditions. I'm like, wow, how do you know he says, Well, if so he's still got my company name in. So the person who stole the terms and conditions haven't even changed the company name. So if you're gonna copy, yeah, at least change up the personal details so they suit you. But in truth, I think when you're a scrappy, early stage startup, you should better off spend your money on you know, testing your product, getting to know your customers really well spending time. Yeah, developing stuff that will move the business and, you know, you can run experiments and learn and grow and then later on, there's a point in time to, to sort of get lawyers and accountants and you know, sort of like professionalise your stuff. So I wouldn't say I think there's ways that you don't need to copy other people. There's plenty of open source stuff out there, like you said, we have stuff like that as well take that and just applied as best you can. Is, is probably my tip rather than copying. But yeah, I wouldn't recommend if you're a day one startup going to a lawyer to get your terms and conditions done before you have a customer like probably before you have 10 customers, maybe even you know, you're earning a couple of thousand dollars before sort of doing that. And really the main the main reason there is your, you know, startups, they come on day one and then three months later, they're in a new line of business and then six months later, they've pivoted to something completely different so often it's, it's quite simply a waste of time and money at the start to do anything. When you think I think lawyers immediately brings my mind to getting sued or suing somebody and it's probably because over in the states you drive down Hollywood Boulevard and you seeing signs that, you know, you need a lawyer, you've been in an accident. You want to sue somebody. I mean, in Australia, what's the I mean people have lawyers to then do you like to employ? You k

9:22
ow, what, I guess what I'm trying to say is us is very litigious. It difference. It's like, everyone has a lawyer in the States. What's going on in Australia? Is there a lot of people that just have lawyers for the sake of having a lawyer to sue peo

9:35
le? Not completely different. So I mean, in 10 years, I've really never been involved with anyone sewing someone all the way to court. And I'm talking like working with thousands of people it it's very rare that things make it to court. It's very different to very different to America. I mean, it does happen probably in the big corporate context. A lot more but In terms of small businesses, startups, smaller tech companies, you know, entrepreneurs, it's Yeah, it's it's not the same thing as in the US, like in the US, you set up a business. And you get it's like you need to get corporate counsel, as soon as you set up a business here, it's it's not so much like t

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at. What does that mean getting corporate counsel like what what's

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the Australia? it? I don't know. Like, I don't really know, to tell you the truth. So I think in America, it's a bit to do with Yeah, I need to get count. Like even setting up a company is a bit more complicated in the US. Just the threat of litigation or doing something wrong is so present that you you there's value in actually having a relationship and getting a lawyer who can be on call for you. Whereas in Australia, I don't think it's so much about getting a lawyer who's on call for you more so a lawyer to help you out navigate issues, hurdles, take investment, build contracts, deal with issues, but search when I can quickly Coal because I'm getting sued for x, y and Zed, whereas in the US, that's like a real threat. So you really want to have that relationship. We see what it does to the court with diffe

11:11
ent see what it does to your culture. Like, I don't have a fear of being sued in Australia and like, over in the States, everyone, like, I reckon you're safer walking across a road there because everyone's scared that you're gonna get sued. Well, I think it got systemic. So it's like, if you don't have health insurance, then all of a sudden, you couldn't get a big bill, a medical bill. And so all of these things sort of compound and it's like, Okay, well, you know, sometimes you have to sort of to make, make a living, make it work

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Do you think there's any benefit to that system over there versus Austra

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ia? I don't know that there's much benefit about anything that's going on in the

11:45
US. Yeah, no, that's f

11:48
ir. I don't know. I don't know. I just reckon it's crazy. Like you go. Here's here. You go to a Japanese restaurant in the US. He's the sushi menu and then there's like a, you know, half the menus, telling you about Got the disclaimer of, you know, eating raw fish

12:04
and really going to Disneyland. It's like, you know, you've got materials that cause cancer. It's it's not really the happiest place, isn't

12:13
it? Yeah, no, no, I definitely I seriously, I think it's great that we don't have that type of culture here. For sure. There's there's other stuff in the US that I think is a bit better in terms of labels and corporate culture, culture, but definitely not that s

12:26
de. Intellectual property, how much of protects protections around IP a built into the system versus what do we actually need to actively do to protect our id

12:39
as? Good questions. So this is like a big one that people confuse. So you guys have heard of a trademark? Yeah. Yeah. So in Australia, it's, there's two things that people people think that I've got a trademark I'm protected. But actually, Australia the law is it's the first to use is not the first to trademark. So the person who was using the logo, the brand first is entitled to that logo or brand at trademark is just say, you telling the world I owned this brand or it's mine. But just because you know, some, if someone's been using the brand for 20 years, then all of a sudden someone else trades market trademarks if that doesn't give that second person the right. So that's like a really big one in intellectual property. And the other huge one that are not a lot of people know about is the law about creating in Australia. So, you know, in our space in tech and startups, you know, there's a lot of dev work, a lot of engineering that gets done. And so the law in Australia is the creator owns so often, you might outsource that. So say you're a business and you've got a freelance developer that writes code for your company or develop some unique high pay That developer actually owns the IP, not the company that it was produced for unless you sort of have a special legal document in the middle making sure that the company owns it. And that's a huge one I've seen all sorts of so Geor

14:15
ie, a reply we've got our editor who's got his own show that's about the daily talk show dislike his his fucking because he's working on it. He actually, would we need to get a contr

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ct. Unless he's an employee. If he's an employee, it's all yo

14:35
rs. JACK, this is good. No, this is g

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od. If he's a cont

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act if he's a con contracted GA, it's time to ask for a bigger check or

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ome lawyer

14:50
up. What about release release forms. So we've been very loose when it comes to release forms. Does implied agreement if someone comes onto a microphone comes up, like, what's the d

15:04
al? I think yeah, there's this is like a super grey area. So yeah, there is there is like an implied contract and just not everything has to be in writing if there is this implied contract, but I guess whether it's implied or written in terms of a release that doesn't get the person out of so you guys doing something, you know, really bad, even if it's written or implied. So, I think like you say, peoples with waivers, saying, Hey, you know, he'll know you'll will ride a wave and you release us from doing anything in the world, but then, you know, they set up a negligent or dangerous situation where someone's legs about to get cut off and, you know, no wav

15:50
or work there. But I guess so for people that have podcasts. I know your brother's head one runnin if you get someone on T shirts Don't get them to sign something. And then they say, can you take it down and really lock what I said they do, you legally have to, I know what the right thing to do is the good blog thing to do is

16:13
but legally not the sort of business we want

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or what's the obligati

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ns, I would think as long as that person and it's pretty clear that they know they're coming on to a podcast that it's live, that it's gonna be, you know, put out into the world straight away just by an email correspondence or whatever it is, will then you know, I can't so if I'm the guests, for example, I know this is gonna be live. I know you're gonna just put it out there. It's very obvious to me that it's that it's for the world. So I can't really say that I didn't know that and I didn't buy into this, you know, implied agreement that way. So I reckon you guys are ri

16:53
ht. I think like one area that I guess it gets a little bit murkier is when we do promos or things like that. I guess I hidden But definitely the promo stuff i think is the one where it's like, yeah, like, I think that we were rolling the dice being like, where we're thinking about what the optics of these types of things. But there could be a time where it's like we have someone on our show that maybe goes to a has their own podcasts or something's competing. And then all of a sudden, it becomes a little bit hairier about including them on some sort of promo that we're do

17:28
ng. Yeah, promos, a big one. So you probably should do something there. Yeah. Because I yeah, it's all about what would the person the guests reasonably expect that you're using this material for? Hmm. So, you know, I would think it's being published right now. Yeah. Well, to say, but probably not to be, you know, promote. But now that you know me, th

17:49
t's totally, totally cool. So maybe it's just a line because I think that like one of the things I used to work at Envato and they had a very sort of innovative legal team, and my One of the things that they spoke about was the importance of clear language that people can read and sort of the legal counsel, there's now she works at zero heading up their legal team there. And it's very much around. If people don't understand the terms, if it's not in a way that they understand that it's a little bit redundant. What is the what's the deal when it comes to the obligation for us to make sure that the people who are signing the agreement actually understands each element of the agreem

18:35
nt? Well, I think it's just like a common sense. approach. If you if you use language, it's all about what a reasonable person, the person receiving it should understand. Right? So, you know, if I, if there's like, really specific terminology to podcasting, I don't know what it could be. But whatever it is, then, you know, I might not understand that. So it's got to be in my eyes. So as long as someone in my position Should reasonably understand it and then you should be fine. So but it's, you know, there's another school of thought that maybe you should get it in writing, send it in an email, and then you do that in the email. And then just before you stop the podcast, you do a verbal consent, which is recorded forever, you know? Y

19:20
ah. I feel like, even sort of people like us get real pumped when we know the law when someone doesn't. And we can leverage that, like not that's not the law. It's like, on button, you know, I know I know, the Consumer Law. Yeah, I mean, you're actually a lawyer. Is there a time that it hasn't been within work hours where you've pulled on a something you learned in uni? And you've, you've pulled out a you know, section 32 doesn't go ri

19:52
ht. I'm gonna tell you something cr

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zy. It's gonna blow your mind in Probably 10 years since finishing law school, I would have opened up like actual legislation a handful of times. I almost can't. I know that sounds nuts, right that I'm a lawyer, but a lot of what loitering is actually isn't calling upon the law like that. It's it's mainly contracts and negotiations and tactical stuff. That's being a commercial, which is very different to people who are going to court or maybe employment law. But yeah, so that's not a really good answer for you. Because I'm basically saying No, I haven't because I basically have hardly needed to pick up legislation in 10 ye

20:40
rs. So in regards to that, then putting together a contract using using that example, I guess,

20:48
the ques

20:53
ion yeah, on the stuff around who owns what and creators and freelancers and things like that is it Then against the law or what is it called? When we put something in a contract? Say we have a freelancer working for us and we put in the contract. Hi. We own the copyright. When it goes against that sort of broader law, how would you write something? Like is there any time where that create an agreem

21:22
nt? Yeah, so that's totally This is like a really good example of when you want to use a lawyer, you want to if you're doing something really important, because someone is developing IP that's going to be fundamental to your business, you know, like, it's gonna be the core base of our code base or something like that, or, you know, something really important for the future of the company. Then you want to get some expert help to make sure you use the right words that make sure you own that IP. But yeah, basically, you just put it in a contract. There's some wording that makes it very clear. That you the company owns the intellectual property of the freelancer or the contractor

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and and then Off you go, and it's done. Do we have as long as Australia

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and the right guy, and you know you here in the US are this is unconstitutional or whatever, like, do we have a constitution? I think I heard it on the castle. Yeah, I mentio

22:21
ed. Yeah, we do. We do. I mean, I'm not sure exactly what's in it. I mean, it should be in it. That's not that's a bit political.

22:35
But what's an example of something that we couldn't do in a contract just because it would be considered unconstitutio

22:40
al? It's no, so our constitution isn't so much like that. So our Constitution is a bit more to do with less on contracts. And, you know, like in the US is very much civil liberties and, you know, our Constitution is, yeah, it's sort of, it's just not used like that. It's sort of setting the framework for Australia and how governments make decisions and stuff like t

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at, what blows my mind is like business models like Facebook come in. And they're, they're brand new. And I guess you'd be saying startups that innovate innovative business models that need the EU adapting the law to suit the business model, or is there new laws being created each day to, you know, keep up with the progression in different types of marketplaces and businesses that are coming up new startups, I gu

23:34
ss? Yeah. Well, this is the really cool thing about working in startups like for our team, it's, it's pretty challenging because startups You know, they're frontier businesses. Basically, they're heading into territory where no one else has been before so you know, laws created and the law is created based upon a concept called precedence. What's happened in the past and startups are dealing in the future, not the past. Right. So You know, we see all sorts of companies who are, you know, if you think about autonomous driving or autonomous vehicles and all sorts of uses of AI and robotics and stuff, you know, robotics replacing humans in the workforce, this these are new concepts. So how do you how do you have laws for robots? Gentlemen? It's, it's, it's totally different. So we actually play a lot in the area of, there's no law yet created. What? How do we protect some of the founders we work with? What's the best approach? What do you do? It's kind of like, you know, we're at the cutting edge of that. So yeah, basically, no, there's not a lot of further really unique IP being developed. There's, there's not a lot to look at and you kind of work it out as you go. You know, crypto blockchain. That's the same, same thing. Everyone's trying to work it out right now. Yeah, so it's pretty cool to be in that sp

24:56
ce. How liable like companies to what their employees employees or the people within their business contractors?

25:05
Do. They pretty liable not so much when the when the employee goes rogue, but yeah, what companies are responsible for creating an environment where the employee should know what to do. Right? So, you know, that's like setting up an environment where employees know that they what's right, what's wrong, what's appropriate behaviour was inappropriate behaviour. That's sort of like the response of the company and if they set up an environment where people will have been trained and educated and you know, they've got values and all sorts of stuff that makes it obvious to an employee as to what's right, what's wrong, what's acceptable behaviour, what's not, and then if an employee goes rogue and, you know, goes and attacks a customer or something because they didn't pay. That's, that's, that would be on the employee, not the custo

25:56
er. What about content creation, so We're in a business where we're creating content all the time. And we're bringing personal things into the show when it's like, having worked in radio, it can be a bit of a HR nightmare externally, when you look at it from an optics perspective of like, is this bullying? is this? You know, Is everyone okay here? Have you? Um, have you seen any shifts in the way that companies can set up to allow for things like content, creating and making a safe sp

26:28
ce? Well, I don't know. This is such like, this is what I mean before about tech and startups. So podcasting is also like an example kind of frontier business, right? And the whole idea of publishing, right? So in the past, it's been newspapers and television organised, you know, news networks, and then you have social media now and everyone's publishing something and who's responsible for that? And you guys as the host of this podcast, if we're going live and I say something ridiculous. Is that on You or is that me personally, right? Yeah. It's it's totally grey. Because you guys aren't signed up as even though you can create content and your content creators you're not. You're not technically news organisations that have you know, these media laws and publishing laws. So it's like, again, super, super grey. So what can you do it? Yeah, I think I think, you know, just making sure that there's a safe word. We've been talking about a safe word where it's like, y

27:30
ah, holy cow. Yeah.

27:32
ike Y

27:34
ah. A safe words good. Like maybe a button you can push that say something stupid. And

27:40
hen I think about Luna as a Cypher to the noise if we go any furt

27:46
er, yeah, that that would be amazing. Yeah, lunar we can even get, you know, a direct ma

27:52
ch. Yeah, definitely. Y

27:54
ah. Don't on the spot. Yeah, perfect country h

28:00
re. Have mechanics that have horrible cars you know faulty and web developers that don't even have a good website what I mean for you guys as lawyers has your back

28:14
end if I wish I could show you I should probably show you what the room looks like and this might summarise our back end I don't know if th

28:21
t's

28:24
eah yeah, right

28:24
now it looks it looks super polished. Right? And it looks like yeah, we're probably re

28:29
lly low. Yeah, it looks le

28:31
it. Yeah, this garbage is garb

28:35
ge. And so I want to

28:38
get in like, you know, you guys trademarking your logo, like you're doing everything that someone who would want to pay lawyers to do would do or is Y

28:48
ah. I'll tell you this. The fit is, I think it's like anything, it's way easier to give advice, then take it yourself is way easier to know. It's way easier to guide others. People say oh, you should be doing this you shouldn't be doing that. You should be focusing here you should be focusing there it's and then you to do it yourself. You know it's harder and so we we've done everything but we haven't done it at a you know, we haven't gone over the top Yeah, we've got trademarks, we've got good processes, we got good HR staff, but we are exactly like the startups we kind of do it as we go as we need as we need to based upon, you know, the money we have available as a business and we think of ourselves as a startup as well. So, you know, we don't just go in to have the best contracts in the world the best trademarking possible in every country going around we we do what we need to but you'd be surprised with Yeah, how slowly and how much better we are of helping other people to get their stuff done then doing doing this stuff ourse

29:53
ves on the trademark thing. How many of the startups you speak to that are getting trademarks are doing it for for external, external reasons that are outside of actually protecting so an example is of saying businesses have success in getting their Instagram verified or things like that using documentation saying that they're, you know, they've got the trademark. Like what why are people getting tradema

30:17
ks? So like a big reason is if you're a product business and you want to sell in the US so you know you've got a physical product and you want to put on Amazon, you actually you need to have a trademark to sell in the US on Amazon. So that's probably the biggest reason right now is anyone who wants to sell on the Amazon Marketplace. You have to go and get a tradem

30:39
rk. How long is that taking? So say we have an idea and we come up with you know, the, the the comfy hoodie, we'll call it the comfy cup cuddle and it's a hoodie and so if we want to register comfy cuddle, what's the process like Do we have to wait for people to what's it called, you know, like that the challenge you're challenging, you know, time and stuff

30:59
ike Yeah, yeah. So it's so you basically find out pretty I like it that come. What do you call it? The company title? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, the comfy cuddle. Is it a physical category cuddle or so hoo

31:09
ie? It's a hoodie, but it feels like it's so warm to cud

31:14
le. Okay, great

31:17
So maybe the print on the back of it his arms around

31:21
ou. And you saying, Oh, that's great. Yeah. okay for us to use that in the pr

31:27
mer heartily if you're looking for a f

31:31
ce, you know, we can start wearing it as well

31:35
So yeah, sarcasm Can I use that? Y

31:41
ah. I'll tell you the process right. I'll tell you the process. So so so first, first, the Prophet says so you say you'll find out you sort of lodge an application and you find out basically within a month, whether you're likely to be successful or not, but then you it sort of sits there I don't know the exact period of time. Basically for six months pending where other people can object and say, No, I actually own the comfy cuddle I've been doing comfy cuddles for you know 10 years and comfy cuddles of mine and you can't use comfy cuddles and then then then you don't get your trademark registered but usually what would happen is you would put your your trademark up there for six months, no one objects and six months later you own company cuddles

32:30
and so Amazon could we put in the meantime, is there sort of like a in between that you could give documentation say hey, it's in this pending st

32:39
te. It's a good question. I'm gonna have to call back up to I don't

32:43
now Yeah, like I should trademark stuff I find interesting because like we tried to, we did the first process where we went to IP Australia and took up their 200 buck thing where they'll tell you the likelihood of getting so like it getting it trademarked with certain classes and they like the daily talk. chose to, you know, generic or whatever it is. But then yeah, but someone who one of the founders of Thank you just he said that they they went down a different route where it's actually trademarking the image and by trademarking the image or the logo you can get around that what's what do you know the details are what the deal is with t

33:21
at. Yes. So, yeah, there's all sorts of different ways you can trademark so you can trademark the words, which is the best thing to do. So if you're going to trademark the words comfy cuddle, then you could own the word comfy cuddle in any format logo written, you know, you just own comfy cuddle button because people use the word comfy cuddle and it's like a generic term. It's pretty unfair for you to exclusively own that term. So you can then get a logo that says comfy casual and as long as the logo is unique en

33:58
ugh You know, there's a bit of design there. As well then you can usually get the logo trademarked so no one else can use comfy cuddle the the logo. So then some free legal advice for us the daily talk show we put the.com in there so that it's very obvious. Is that going to be problematic if we were to get trademarks because we'll have to include calm, but you don't k

34:20
ow. It's very well you might get that boy you could do different things right you could go get the daily talk show the logo and trademarked and then maybe the daily talk show calm or the daily talk show in a tag

34:34
ine trademarked as w

34:37
ll. Maybe so we could do a version of the logo without the.com and then to one with like, I think that like something is trademark so that they can't be talked about or like for instance, as a way of sort of suppressing like safe but like we want to be really protective of our brand and potentially pushing against saying the US someone does a video about, say like a takedown video on Luna and saying all this shit about you, you might not be able to do it from a free speech point of view. But if they use your trademark, you could take them down on that. Is that something that that happ

35:15
ns? No not not if they're highlighting you and saying this is Luna, but it's more for anti competition. So stopping competitors using the daily talk show. So the daily talk show is probably a hard one because it's pretty much pretty common. Yeah, yeah. pretty generic. So it's more for stopping competitors saying, Hey, we are the daily talk show. This is the daily talk show and are another podcast coming up as the daily talk show as opposed to news outlets. Talking about you guys the daily t

35:47
lk. There was in Melbourne, Nick de innopolis. trademarked walk boy, and which seems quite common, I mean, that was getting thrown around at school when I was there, but I mean It's what he's trying to do is prevent any comedian or any other actors creating a character or some stage show using the term warm boy. I mean, has he got that thro

36:12
gh? Yeah, I don't know, sometimes some Honestly, I don't know. Sometimes, I guess when, you know, like, eventually a word becomes so synonymous with a person or an individual that it then becomes, you know, trade markable if that makes sense. So, so, you know, an example might be zoom. Right? zoom may not have been able to trademark itself consumes just a generic word early on. But now that everyone knows zoom as the video platform, even though it's a generic word, it might be that it could be trademarked now. So but again, when you trademark it's only in specific, like class, last moulding, so yes, yes. So Zoom Zoom might be able to trademark in it. But there's no way zoom. The company could own the trademark in the camera categ

37:06
ry. Yeah, what's your favourite type of legal stuff to do for start

37:12
ps? I like I like deals, I think probably investment and deals and let's do one closing. Yeah. So wh

37:20
t's the deal? Like, can you explain like, let's let's do it. So, you know, TJ has been throwing around He's like, pack up that company 450 million bucks they they got selling all this sort of st

37:33
ff. That was the valuat

37:34
on. Yes, that's it guys. Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan just got bought by start Spotify for I think was 100 mils. So that's a good starting point for

37:43
ou. And so what's the like so they're buying obviously the they're getting an exclusive deal. They're getting licences. I remember specifically talking about a licence, they'll buying a licence to be able to put it on there. So I'm guessing there's some sort of rolling contract that's going on, but If you're not planning an area that I'm interested in is if you're not planning on an exit. So the daily talk show is connected to tell me and I, it's something that we want to build over a long period of time, this potential intellectual property in the processes that we have or being able to create new shows or things like that, once we launch co

38:21
fy, comfy cuddle

38:22
ith Ronan's beaut

38:25
ful testimony testimonial. Yeah, so we will potentially have some IP there, but how do how do we set up these types of things? TJ and I have a 5050 stake in big media company, which does all of the daily talk show stuff. What are the different reasons that people are doing deals getting investment? And how does it w

38:45
rk? Yeah, yeah. So there's a big so when I say so it's like there's investment which is someone giving you guys money and taking some ownership in your company so that you can grow and then you know, when you said exit, that's someone's buying you out. You know, buying some of your shares or buying ownership or buying the whole company? So yeah, basically the reasons people do it mainly in tech is that it takes so long to generate revenue. So you have to spend a lot of money before you see the upside. So usually in tech, there's a lot of investment and money that goes to building the company early on before it really generates revenue. So in order to build the technology, to build the team, to get the customers, customers, there needs to be investment to get it going. So that's one reason people take investment, which is just money coming into your company. The other reason is to grow so you know, you might want to take big the big media, it's the big media, big media company. Yeah, no, no, the media company and you know, you might go great, we're doing this this talk show, which isn't kicking ass, it's great in Australia. We've got the team, it's sustainable, but yeah, we want to go into the company. cattle business. And it's a real growth opportunity because through our platform, we can sell it and all the we know we can run free ads on our podcasts for it and but we need money to, to to invest in design and inventory and growth and sales. So, you know, we need to get an investor to fund that, or you fund it yourself or, you know, in your from your profits. But I guess that's usually

40:26
the I mean, the business that isn't planning on exiting, does that is they want that don't get investment or is there people investing in businesses that aren't planning on sell

40:39
ng? difference? So you know, when you talk about VCs, which are like venture capitalists, they professional investment funds that invest in businesses that are going to sell in that are listed on a stock exchange, which is like a sale, you know, in a seven to 10 year period because they have to get those returns and give it back to their investors who invested in their fund, so that's all about the exit. But then private individuals might invest in your company and hope that your company does really well and that he there's a profit so you know, revenues higher than expenses, and they get some of that profit. So if someone owns 25% of your company, they get 25% of the profit each year and that's how they get their investment b

41:24
ck. And so entities and liability and things like that, when when should you create new entities? So for instance, comfy cuddles or comfy cuddle? I guess it would be first of all, would we trademark the plot? Like would we get the cuddles and cuddle or would you have to do them separately? That's that's one question. And then the other one is, at what point would that become its own proprietary limited and beat have its own bo

41:50
ks? Yeah. So I mean, first of all, I think we could get away with just the cuddle. We wouldn't need the cuddles. Yes. So that would cover us. So if we can get that done. To be great, I'll check it

42:01
ut. Our motto is one's better than n

42:06
ne. That's actually

42:11
ike

42:12
es. Sorry, I got stumped. And then the entity and so then you stuck. Y

42:15
ah, the entity. Yeah, the entity stuff. So I think you set up an entity when you've got something to lose. Or you're, you're seriously investing in something. So what I mean by that is, you know, if you've got a company now that's going well, and you're starting a risky new product, and that puts your company at risk or you as an individual at risk, because you're a high net worth individual, you've got family assets, so it's something to protect, you want to set up a structure straightaway so that if something goes wrong, it's the structure or the company, not the old company or you as individuals. So that's sort of one side and the other side is, you know, eventually you have to set up an entity Or a business or a structure. And that's usually you know, in our world in the startup world, it's when you're serious when you're committed to something, you know, you might be testing something out for six months trialling it with customers and then once you go okay cool like in the company cattle situation we're gonna go you know order $20,000 worth of jumpers and cuddles or whatever I don't know if we're going into the actual physical capital game as well. But once we decide we're going to

43:29
top like cut cabling pai

43:32
ful you know, and we're going to invest money in team and whatever then, you know, you definitely want to set up a business entity t

43:39
ere in that way. How much do you need to chop something up? So for instance, say if we were, say big, let's use big media company as an example. We have our services part so we have where clients come to us when we make videos for them. We then have another part of the business which is original content, like the Daily talk show like Hump Day replay. We've fallen into the whole fucking like we've all gotten like TJ and I both have trusts and all that sort of thing. It feels like a little bit useless at the moment because there's nothing to throw back. For the beneficiaries. Yeah, but what's the what's the process in regards to you have a bigger business? And then going into categories and actually creating entities for those different categor

44:24
es? Yeah. So you start to say that when you think there's opportunities for the categories that are separate to each other, if that makes sense. So if, if there's opportunities for your agency style of business to get investment, or maybe sell to another agency, but you want to keep the daily talk show, as your own thing, or On the flip side, you want to you know, do the Joe Rogan and sell the daily talk show to Spotify, but keep your agency then then you need to think about splitting it up. So when you start to when you think there could be separate offices changes you. You want to split it up. Or if there's an or if there's new people you want to get involved, you maybe want to add a third co host into the daily talk show and you want to give them some equity in the side of the business, but they don't provide much value to the agency side. So, you know, you might want to split it up then as w

45:19
ll. Yeah, I mean, these things, I feel like, we could easily do it before we start. An

45:25
we can get all the fucking trademarks in the world

45:28
and cancel it at separate ways. And it's, you need the thing to work and how many how many people are coming to you guys as I guess, brand new wanting to chop it versus we've got ourselves down the line. We're making money and it's actually working now we need

45:45
it. And how hard is it to chop it light? Y

45:47
ah, yeah. So not that hard. And that's this is what I was talking about at the start with sort of that old school approach to loitering where you'd come in and the lawyer would say, oh, we're going to set up these. You've got these unique projects. You can I'm gonna set up five different entities for you, it's gonna cost you just 10,000 bucks to, to set it up before you've even started. And then six months later, I don't know, half of it worked half of it didn't work. I think it's much better to do it. Like you guys have done that just roll in, roll up your sleeves, get it, get it going, work out what you have, and then you know, it's a bit annoying, it's like a big admin task to to undo it. It's not a huge expense, but I think the better entrepreneurs do it the way you do it, go test out, see where opportunities are, you know, might take six months might take a year might take two years and then once once or you have a bit of an inkling base things are gonna be completely different then you want to act because yeah, the longer you leave it, it does become even more complicated. And then maybe a bit expensive. And then yeah, it's a it's, you want to do it at the right po

46:54
nt. I met your brother on Instagram. You i think i think we were chatting and then sort of Hang out a couple of times. I remember hearing about Luna before it was what it is now how how different is Luna from when you star

47:11
ed? So Luna is yes super different when it started so when it started it wasn't called Luna It was a name which I can't believe what used to be called hashtag corporate advice. So it wasn't even Luna out of hasht

47:25
gs. Yeah, it was big we thought I realised mixing the young with

47:28
ith the corporate and I don't know what how did the decision come about to get rid of that n

47:32
me? You showed yours

47:34
lf? Oh my god, it was like there was I I had I had our team threatened to leave unless we changed the name. So you know, we had to change it. But it was it was a it was a name by mistake. So super different at the start. It was May and a couple of law students who just volunteered and I don't know why to this day they did but they thought it was a good idea. And yeah, They saw something, I guess. But yeah, so it was totally different as just kind of three of us mean to law students running around town, trying to get work, learn, learn about entrepreneurship, meet startups and be useful. And yeah, so five years later, where we're very different. We got a bunch of sort of unique processes and tech, which drives our business. We've got a team of 617 people, you know, our own space here in Chrome on and yet, it's total and we're in completely different areas. There's legal accounting, we invest in startups, we run we have an education business for startups. So it's it's really differ

48:39
nt. It seems like business models are changing. And I'm even thinking about how we want to set up our business. It feels like the education system is a bit broken, especially around arts and things like that. I know in the US there's a there's more sort of education debt than there is credit card debt in there. country and I think in Australia, there's a lot of people who are going into film school coming out. We found a piece of paper and not much else. What we're trying to look at is how do we how can we combine a few different systems together? And what I'm finding is that the law doesn't necessarily always allow like, you talked about volunteers or having volunteers. Seems like there's a bunch of laws around framework and interns and things like that. How can we look at these types of things in a pragmatic way? cover our ass but also realise that okay, this person could spend, I can 50 grand on a unique course. Or they could come and get real training work with us. How can we set that up? Because we as a business, we can't justify getting a junior burger unnecessarily who is straight out of school who wants to do great stuff? Yeah,

49:56
and give them a salary. We're paying 35 grand anyway is like Star

50:01
ing in tensor az, so is there is there any? So there's that question. And then the follow on is like with the new business models, doing things like profit share where it's rather than investors, the people who work with us aren't invested based on they receive profit share and stuff like that. He talked about the business model st

50:20
ff. Yeah, sure. So um, so first on the the volunteers and intern stuff, it's a really it's actually it's, it's quite a complicated one. I mean, ignoring what the law is. It's also complicated and what's the right thing to do? So, you know, there's a school of thought that if you've got an opportunity for a student, for example, to get some work experience and learning, it's the best education they'll have, which is kind of was our approach. But then there's this other side to it, it's like is that creating more privilege in the people who can afford to, you know, work for free. And so if you're setting up a system where you're allowing, free volunteering, and free and It's probably only sir you that's something that you really that opportunity is mainly going to be available to people who can afford to not work because for for payments and so it's a bit of an ethical discussion in terms of yeah it's it seems ridiculous that you've got an opportunity which are the student at uni would love because they're going to get more better education and work and work experience in job and another job

51:26
and a job on the other side, right. I think that that's like the thing is it's like this, this idea of no free work. I get like, I'm sensitive to this stuff because I started freelancing when I was 14, I did a bunch of free work, but I saw the, the benefits and then I hear at conferences or things like that people, especially even in minority saying hi this is you need to be strong in this, this, this and this, and a lot of ways doing them a disservice because, unfortunately like to be able to show your value to people To get into the game, sometimes you need to take those st

52:04
ps. Yeah, so I think I think what you're saying is right, it's like, okay, there's a job prospect on the other side you because because often you would know, as a small business of sorts that you and a startup that you also don't know what this is gonna look like. And so you kind of need to test it out, and then they can, they can turn it into their own job and great. So I think job prospects on the other side is critical. And I think the other thing is flexibility. So not doing the thing where it's like, cool, there's an internship where you have to be available on these hours at these times. And you know, being flexible with the intern as to their experience so that they don't feel forced to not earn a living elsewhere, you know, that you know, just being a bit more flexible in terms of what hours look like and when, when work looks like and what does that look l

52:56
ke? Like co creating a role? I think is

52:59
hat yeah I think Yeah, I think so. Right so instead of you doing the doing the corporate thing where you need to, we've got an internship where you have to turn up two days a week between nine to five on the two days you have off at uni, co creating it. So it actually works for the uni student, if you like to, you know, still have their job job at Cole's or Woolworths or freelancing or whatever they're doing mixed in with this experience, which is, you know, going to increase their job prospe

53:25
ts. Sorry, TJ, I feel like I'm on a roll of just going around the around the lake, the legal stuff, how much of it is within the two parties. So for instance, say we work out this great deal. We feel like it's co creating, yeah, from a legal perspective, if we're all cool with it, and we say so Mr. 97 started off, you know, we paid him 50 bucks and an episode or whatever, for actually started free than doing you know, 50 bucks an app as a contractor. But we sort of said Hi, it's not so much employment, like this is an employment, you can do other stuff. Then we move into a sort of a more employee relationship paying super things like that. How much of these issues from a legal perspective between the two parties versus actually creating issues long t

54:14
rm? Yeah, well, I mean, you guys like you guys don't need lawyers because you just nailed it right there. You um, yeah, exactly what you said, you just have to make sure that if you're, if you bring someone on board as a freelancer or a contractor at the start there is that's not employment. It's not like minimum wage and super and all that stuff that's in the employee bucket. So but you have to treat them like a contractor. They have to be free to negotiate for delay free to do other jobs. You know, it has to be a true contractor relationship. And then once they morph into an employee, then there's minimum wage and stuff like that. I think there's also regime of soaps for how to do internships. Like official internships as well. Yeah. And paid and unpaid but that's kind of in that employee bucket. So the way you guys did it sounds sounds spot

55:09
on. And then what about on the the sort of top end of things like hiring sort of more senior people looking at commission based staff and things like that is is that Apple em

55:21
tic knows like, what do you mean by problem

55:22
tic well just I guess doing the so if you look at the things like minimum wage, and then you look at Okay, you see an opportunity, it's like, Okay, well, let's look at doing this where it's when we're making money, you're getting a really, you know, great result as well. What are some of the considerations in regards to like I feel like commission culture here at in sales, but with I guess what we're doing you don't hear it as m

55:50
ch. Yeah, so probably i

55:55
in commission bonuses, so like, maybe even going back to your initial question on profit. Sharing and that type of stuff because that's where we see a lot a lot in startups in tech, you might have a beach base wage for, you know, if you if you're hiring a CTO or head of sales or a head of marketing, or you know, sort of a high level position, you might want to incentivize them with, you know, wage but you can't pay the same as a big corporate and you bet you want to want them to have incentive and buy in and all of that stuff. So you might instead of incentivizing them with bonus for reaching milestones are deals or sales or whatever it is, their role is you might give them equity. So you might give them small percentages in your company so that they can be a shareholder and benefit from the long term profits and, you know, possible sale of the company in the future. So that's the, the that that's sort of in the sweat equity, employee share scheme spa

57:00
es. So what does that mean the sweat equity because we've heard that a Bish is the equity that comes and goes depending on whether you're in the business or out of the business

57:08
eah yeah literally you sweat equity so that your effort equals equity so that you know you may be in you know you might get I don't know what's what's the job you guys are looking for a moment maybe I'll just like a made up t

57:21
ing yeah I think while I like looking at comfy cuddles, you need a sales a sales manager to be able to specifically run retail so getting into st

57:31
res Great. So you're gonna have a sales sales manager head of sales you know, their their base wage, their current wage might be 150 k because you're gonna look for someone with some answers, but you can't afford t

57:43
at. And so yeah, this is the thing right? Yeah, so that's what I want. Can you pay fuckin minimum wage on on that sort of role and then top it up with a back end? Like a really good deal. Exac

57:54
ly. Yeah, exactly. So you might go you'll be great hundred and 50 k minimum wage for this type of role is 50 k per Yeah, so the head of sales is on 50 k per year. But you know, they're they're taking a big risk to come here for 50 K. And you want them to you want them to work hard and be invest in the company. So you might give them you might give them sweat equity or for for the ride for the remainder 100% of sort of 100. Okay that they could have got fire wage, and that would be based upon performance. That might be on milestones, the number of deals they do, or it might just be time spent working full time in the com

58:37
any of people doing zero minimum wage and sweat equity is the is the prom

58:45
se. Yeah, well, that that happens a lot. It's all about you got to, there's a balance. So you have to pay minimum wage, if they're an employee. No, that's kind of at a base level. But then there's this balance because you want to make sure that it's not too far. In the equity side, because you know if that head of sales has a family or mortgage or credit debt, you don't want them to, you know, become completely sort of disgruntled and they won't perform at all because they don't have enough or they're too stressed and mentally unwell because of this financial stress. So it's this balance on making sure that there is that security and comfortability and exposure to equity is the upside but you want to have a balance that you're not it's actually disservice to pay too lit

59:35
le. Yeah. And so that's completely understand that and so the sweaty

59:38
ar, like I'm just in the business startup founders pulling away, and then it's like, we need 10 people to get this through and you got the founders and then you got a few people around that are like, we're gonna split this up. As soon as we make money. I can just say there's a part of

59:53
it. Uh, yeah, I guess there's a difference between being an owner versus sweat equity software like hey, you're gonna be a direct like, you're counting coming in as another director or whatever it is, then it's like, yeah. Okay, that feels like it's more autonomous on the on the sweat equity thing. So is that a dynamic number based on? years performed? Or how does that w

1:00:13
rk? Yeah, so usually the way it works is it sort of usually goes over a four year period. So in our space, our industry in tech, and startups, usually over a four year period, sort of takes a year to kick in. So there's a year to sort of prove yourself and then you would get 25% of the equity after one year, and then sort of the centre of a hammer. Yes. So let's say you're giving 10% right? So if you're giving 10% to the head of sales, you would give them after one year, two and a half percent. And then the remaining seven and a half percent, they would get like small amounts every month worked for the next three ye

1:00:56
rs. So the first year they're doing they just gained the

1:01:01
0 k Yeah, o

1:01:02
ay. Yeah. So so that's it because it's kind of a year to find. If they were they said, find the groove, can they do this? Can they not do this? And this is again, so sometimes you might start off, like, in this example, you might start off and say, Hey, for you one, we're gonna pay you 80 K, yeah. And then there afterwards, if if we proceed to give you equity, the 25%. And you go ahead, you're going to drop down to 50. But now your upside is going to be huge, because you've got a percent of the company and there's going to be profits and all that st

1:01:34
ff. And so if you leave the company, then you lose that equity. Exactly. And so is this better? Do you think that from a 2020 people prefer this sort of model over just a straight commission? So getting say 20% Commission on a sale versus a 10%? equity? How would you work through someone to work out what's the better d

1:01:57
al? Yeah, well, I mean, some people it depends where people are a lot in their life but I think now you know, our generation if you like, they they want to fit they don't want to just take a wage from for doing work they want to they want to feel some ownership they want to make sure that having an impact and I think having equities you know it's as much a feeling rather than a financial decision this you know, there's there's a sense of ownership in something it's got more of a personal touch their efforts of working and now you know, they're they're part of something so in my experience that that holds a lot of white particularly for particularly for you know, Millennials that's a culture play almost yeah for sure for s

1:02:46
re. And so then it's insurances a staff that

1:02:48
arn enough money but

1:02:50
and and so when it comes to insurance, I get I insurances Mike, things like work cover and shit like that. Like, are you looking at that and did they use me allow for all of those insurances and liability stuff to be cove

1:03:07
ed. Yeah, totally. I mean insurance. Yeah, insurance doesn't really insurance you got to have insurance for your business and you know, when we talk about comfy cuddles, we'll have some sort of product insurance but yeah, it doesn't really come into the equity space that much because you know, people it's people have make their own decision to come in. So, you know, there's no liability on the company to say, Hey, we're going to give you equity and then you're going to get x amount in profit. You sort of present them with hey, here's the equity offer. It's almost like you're an investor Have a think about it, are you

1:03:46
hen do you accept it makes it like I think it's, it's been so good talking through these things, because it's there's a lot of ambiguity, and it's not a what I like about this stuff is as a creative element to it. Like I can see how you can really do whatever you want. I'll set it up in different ways, but it's understanding that baseline of what you can and can't do that i think you know, help

1:04:07
ul. Yeah, totally. And I think this is where people get so confused with the logs, they just think it's definitely going to be super complicated and let's not even go there. But to tell you the truth, you know, it might be unknown and foreign, but it's, it's not super, super, super complicated and expensive

1:04:26
and yeah, it's accessible to some ext

1:04:30
nt. I'm gonna break something to the both of you. Comfy cuddles a modern beanbag, with the support and comfort you need in your home. It's annoying. That's annoying. Oh,

1:04:40
no. I mean,

1:04:42
hey vary. I guess it doesn't really matter that they're registered like if they're, they're registered or not like they because they've started trading with Ali. Oh,

1:04:51
his is a good one. Um, Ryan, we have the gronk squad. Your brother gettys a part of it. Whether he knows your cell, we use our gronk squad. Calm we have we've started you know using any language we sell. We've got like gronk squad t shirts, we've done some hoodies and stuff. There's a bloke in the states rather famous, rather rich. He's a quarterback gronkowski who also has a cold. He's called the gronk. And I reckon we got a giffy through a little Jiffy on. On Instagram, you can swipe up and search we got one through and I reckon the only reason is they thought it was from gronkowski could he come at us from over the other side of the world, and sue us for using the term gronk to describe our gronk sq

1:05:42
at? I don't think he can in Australia unless he kind of does business with it directly in Australia. So I think I reckon we might be okay, but we might be in trouble in the US. We don't ship

1:05:56
the them at the moment. That's

1:05:59
ust yeah, and you might be in trouble if you made him in per

1:06:05
on. Jesus he's forearm right and I feel like we're your family friend who's asked for freely

1:06:15
ike I feel like

1:06:18
one saying I feel like this has been a Lego cli

1:06:23
ic. I mean, it's like my bro

1:06:24
her my brother told me this was gonna be Bay like all laughs and funny stor

1:06:28
es. I've been talking Legos the whole t

1:06:32
me. serious people I've ever

1:06:36
ome it's a brand va

1:06:39
ue. It's been fun for me. These conversations I take it that these are day to day for you. And they feel like they take a lot of brain capacity from someone like me. And I could just imagine how you know switched on your mind is having these conversations every day do you get exhausted speaking legal s

1:07:00
eak So it's so exhaust

1:07:05
ng. We just stuff is like we spend so much time fucking bullshitting with what we think like, half an hour meeting without a single legal head in the room, talking about trademarks and all this sort of stuff as if we know what the answer is. But yeah, I see the benefit in, in startups having having a partner like Luna, you guys doing some sort of like equity thing where it's like, if you believe in a startup, you'll buy in and then provide legal adv

1:07:33
ce. Yeah, when we invest, we might consider adding on a little bit for sort of free services and advice that's coupled to the financial investment. But yeah, that's sort of how we're looking at it. So yeah, we're sort of exploring that right now. Or I think it's a good i

1:07:51
ea. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's definitely something if we look at the new business models, there's something about skin in the game and long term and I feel like you They're just getting cash. Make sense if you if you don't necessarily believe, like, if you don't believe in a client, just getting cash and being able to walk away, it's really handy. But I feel like there's another opportunity now where it's like, are we believing in these different things and being able to also get access to stuff or a startup might not have cash, or might not have VCs? They can go to people like you guys and still get, you know, world class service providers but not have the the crazy costs associated. So yeah, I think it makes sense. Awesome. Awesome. All right. It's a daily talk show. So right in the so legal stuff startups what's what's the deal with like, I get worried with legal firms and having a meeting and then getting some sort of massive, massive bill from the from the console, what's the d

1:08:58
al? So from us You don't need to worry about stuff like that. We just love chatting to founders. So if you're starting a tech company startup, I don't know, frontier business doing something innovative. We chat for free. Just because we love the businesses. So consult consults are sort of, we have them and then if there's work to be done, that's when we charge but that's a bit different to others, but that's sort of our mo

1:09:23
el. That's good. Perfect. We are Luna CO is the website. Thanks for running on

1:09:29
it. Thanks, guys. It's been g

1:09:30
eat daily talk show tomorrow, g