#159 – Jules Lund – business, balance and being the boss/

0:06
Wait a minute

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conversation, sometimes worth recording with Josh Janssen and Tommy jacket.

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The Daily talk show everyone. Oh, Jocelyn. What's going on?

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How come you're the only one with headphones on?

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Because I'm the only one trusted to monitor this.

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And I don't care and I was having drinks with the wife the other day Joe.

There was other people their kids involves my wife right now and it was saying you're in New York, we were sending you photos. But on that day, I worked out something. I finally well I joined I joined some dots. Anna told me that when who waters bro. Oh, and she was in labour that you are on the phone to Josh Janssen. Yep. Josh Janssen was on the phone to me when Amy's warders bro.

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You are an inducer? pasteurise Yeah, Jai the induce. So what happens is when you're well overdue, you just get on the phone and Josh Janssen and your water's bright.

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don't even have to be there in person. That's really amazing.

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They just get the partner to get on the phone. And just you all of a sudden, humans are so excited to meet this person. Josh Janssen they just come flying out of its flying out of water.

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Well,

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wherever I'll Google it.

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The know because even Tommy cold winter so he said, Man, I've got to go. Amy's waters just broken up. But then was nice enough to call me back on the way to the hospital. We were in the car

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and say I was the same. I mean, as you know, I'm micro-managed you for years. And even through my wife's labour, I was saying just cut another just a second out of that in just a second. And it.

2:00
So there's a connexion to us through Josh working at the radio station together. Yeah. And then you and I we've had our Connexions of the years working together.

2:12
The way you saying it sounds sad.

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It's more like friendship.

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delivery fee.

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to the library. It's a it's a fraud. I feel like blood sugar's low. They don't need to pump it up.

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After four o'clock on a Friday, and I know

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how much energy Do you usually have more?

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Really? Yeah,

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absolutely. But you haven't had sugar for you

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know, as I said, I've been zigging and zagging. I had a little bit of chocolate just before

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any about to drop. Yeah,

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exactly. But we had some delicious. Good Guzman and government. Yeah, yeah, it was a had the enchilada.

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Are you hoping to get a spot?

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Something episode? We did it. We did. Hey, Mitch butchering his episode we mentioned man.

3:06
Yeah, no, no, but but we're sitting

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here in the boardroom of the Office of the company you founded? Yep. Which we just were just talking about the growth of the office spaces. You started out in this little in a little corner. Then you went to a bigger one down an alleyway. Yeah. And then you've come back and taking the whole floor of a building in South Melbourne. Yeah. And

3:28
ironically, where we started was in the corner of this very floor, but it was Tommy and then we came back. It was exciting day, actually, because it grew, we grew so quickly. I think we were here for a few months. And then we went up the road for about a year. But in that year, I think we must have been hiring two people a week. And it just grew so quick. And so we didn't realise we thought that that was going to be our office, it was sort of three storeys, and there was one toilet. There's only 15 universe and then all of a sudden, I just started chapter 35. And it was was horrendous, like, by the end the noise because you have a sales people, you know, the echo and we were it was and so then we sort of Yeah, we redesigned here and then we came back in here. I mean, you look at this, it's it's my favourite part of

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wherein is it Albert Park is that technically where we have

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South Melbourne but on one side, we're overlooking Albert Park like, and it looks beautiful. And then on the other side, you're looking at the CD Skype and and you've got light on both sides. And or as you would have seen on getaway, it doesn't get any

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better than this.

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Guys after the break can try to digest family friendly.

4:41
You do it really well. I guess it was it really was you?

4:44
Yeah, it was my

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Yeah. The funny thing about it's interesting to hear what people bring up when they talk about, you know, starting a company tribe? Is that the name of the business? Do you get? Do you get uncomfortable? When people look at certain metric, say for instance, the amount of employees you have, or the size of the space? Or the money you've raised?

5:07
All look to be honest. It's I mean, where do you stop? Is I say to Tommy often, I mean, it's it's a real frightening experience. You know, like I open the kimono often, like I was at a HubSpot event yesterday talking and everyone's like, you know, congratulations. And I'm like, man, we're in survival mode, no matter how good it goes in a startup wilderness survival mode, and it can just, you know, there's not much margin for error. And we I actually think we're doing everything right. And it's really intense. It's like a pressure cooker. So you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, we we, everyone peaks at one edge of it. So VCs will pick it certain things, the media will pick it others, and, like, I'm pretty clear on my vision, but I'm never really comfortable with where we're at. So I feel vulnerable, you know, you have a huge sense of out. You know, it every sort of stage. And it's really, I mean, I've learned a lot, and I've grown a lot, like it's completely transformed. Everything in between my ears over the last three years, I've had to mature a lot. I mean, like you guys knew, like, I have genuinely changed so much because, like, I used to think I'd work hard, you know, in writing I but it was all just shock value. It was all attention seeking. Whereas the that quality is so destructive in a company, like icon, shock value, what point like, I'll just be sued. Yeah, like, you know, like, and as a leader, you realise, wow, like, you got to be great on, I'm leaving the pressure of nine to five, and then you go, Oh, this is 24. Seven. And then they all don't have to work for the man, the boss, and then you work for 60? Yeah. Because every one of your employees you're responsible for and you know, what? The mood you're in how you articulate things. And as you guys know, I've never been a great leader like that, because I'm so task orientated. And I've got OCD that I can, you know, I've had to unpick so much of my horrendous management skills, which is, you know, has been the biggest part of this journey, which is being so aware of my influence. And when you're a part of a business, if you don't get it, right, you can't just sort of hump in a huff and puff as a leader. Are you shielding? Your employees? Not from any of this stuff? Not tell them?

7:41
Well, because it but the thing is, because if you if you shield them, then that like I've seen it within businesses, where if like, if people don't have a sense of the success and the metric sales, like if you don't know that, like, if we don't get enough sales, we're not going to be a business for much longer, like, bring that stuff forward. Yeah. Do you have dashboards and shit? Yeah, yeah, that's

8:03
all up there on the I mean, we're incredibly transparent, like Adam feria, you know, Adam is a consumer psychologist, great author. And he's got think about which is, you know, one of the leading creative agencies in the country, but he, he's on our board. And when he first came in, he just couldn't believe it would be sitting around, he come to one of our sessions, and, you know, would have 2530 staff and he'd be sitting there and man and say, I would just be sitting there. And just going, this is where we're struggling. And these and we would literally tell him every step of the journey, and he just couldn't believe that we were being so open and honest. And I think in a startup world, that's a real positive thing. Because everyone knows the impact. And I tell people, it's fragile. Like, you know, I go, guys, this is the journey, like it could stop at any point. Give it your best. And I yeah, I think I think that's a, I think that's a valuable process to go through. Because I want, I want all of those people to understand how businesses work. I don't want them to just go, I know how to be a graphic designer, and I want everyone to be exposed to different departments, because my view is i'd love them to go out there and start their own business or grow will scan themselves, and what great value to be exposed to the inner workings.

9:20
Yeah, is that you have like a, you know, people talk about runways and shit like that. Like how, how can you? How do you measure? How worried to be on a given day? Well,

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yeah, your runway? Yeah. Yeah. When you're running out of money,

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and it seems like in this sort of business, is it six months or 12 months? Is it? We know, we can pay a salaries for 18 months?

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It's like 12 months, you know, like, but it's a it's a sickening feeling, because you have, it's this strange conundrum where, so I explain it. So you raise money by saying, we're going to hit these targets by this time. And my God, that's awesome. Well, if you're gonna hit those targets, we're going to give you money, then you take the money, and then you go, right, we're gonna hit those targets, and you start to work towards those targets. But then you start to realise, hang on a sec, where it's, we're not, we're not either meeting them, or we're not exceeding them,

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or the focus can be wrong to like the thing. It's that classic thing of, and this happens within relationships to with Bry. Like I was at one, at one point, I'm like, let's, if he's, he's realised.

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How much longer you go

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exactly. Why probably three months? No, but it's, it's a thing of all say, I think we should pack everything up. We don't need a house. We don't need let's I can go Nomad, let's do all that sort of thing. And then it's probably Bry invest in this idea. And then six months time, I've worked out some other thing. I'm like, actually, I think a house could be good. But maybe it should be an investment property. Is that a little bit of that vibe decent? Have not No,

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no, only because with

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I'm so clear on the vision of this that we have in the app. And the model that I designed before we even got Tommy jacket to film, some screen grabs on an iPhone to make it look like an app. Yeah, for the first round of investment has not changed. I'm so clear on it. And I didn't care about all the distraction and K with the rest of the world is doing. I'm so convinced that what I'm working towards the tricky is, when you don't reach those targets, right? You go right now ours, we have to grow more and work harder, which costs more money. And so now you're racing faster towards the edge of a cliff. But you have to be able to get a launchpad to site with hit those targets. And next time you go out to raise money, they say we raise this money, because we said we're going to do it, guess what? We did it. Now we want this amount of money, because now we're going to go here. And so it's it's a really interesting strategy day, because you can't slow down. You have this beta. And so that that gives me that gives me slight lyst not

12:13
Well, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people, and I've even I see this, what's it valued at now? The company? And not that you have to answer it, but I've seen you kind of like a, it's like, you don't even want to go there. Because you're focusing on getting here, you know, that 12 month period. And you've seen how volatile the startup world is?

12:33
Yeah, yeah. Like this. I mean, it's really, it's really fragile. And, you know, you know, it, like I was speaking to a friend this morning, who's, you know, building a marketplace. And, you know, I don't know if I would have chosen it had I known the die to die. I mean, I get I because it's a very different business. So I can be passionate about content, and I want to change it advertising, but I'm in the business world. And I wasn't born necessarily for that. And you know, I've spent a lot of time doing rising and having conversations that isn't actually my superpower. So it's sort of, you know, there's three parts to it, there is the vision, the strategy, and what you're building. And I'm really excited by that. I love doing that. And how you communicate that that's my second one is operationally how you build the teams. And then you know, you, you try and people and they'll be awesome. And then they'll want to move on to the next adventure. And then you have to replace them. And so you get to get the culture, right. So that's the second pillar. And the third pillar is just the few. Like, it's all of the funding. So you've got to raise capital, and sometimes that can be out of balance. But, you know, I wanted the first one, but yet you can't get to it unless you you get all these other things. Right. And

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so if you're looking at where you are now, and I know you said that to me the other week, if if I if I knew was gonna be this hard, maybe I wouldn't have

13:56
Well, I think I did. I think I would have I just, you know, I just feel tortured by the sacrifice. And

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I look back on getaway and the radio, and all those things. Do you think? Is there a similarity in the early days, your

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your, your memoir could be just titled, tortured. tortured, because that's part of the journey, like, you probably wouldn't have it any other way. You're just moving from Yeah, different versions of torture, which is actually where you get off where you get excited last?

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Because I no matter what I do, I find the tension. Like I just put myself on the other side of the comfort circle, the comfort zone, and I just, I just exist in this sense. It's so strange. It's so fucked up.

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Does it start somewhere is a conscious thing to go, I'm gonna put my hand up first, I'm going to be the first I

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was Jim stanzas fault. Because you know, Jimbo is a mentor was always like, you can be better than this, you can do more, I need to sort of push me out of my comfort zone, any go, you know, enough times where I go, Wow, I actually can do that. And you'd say, yeah, and then I'd be comfortable. That, you know, that breadth. So you know, you step a comfort zone and do it enough times, and then you're comfortable doing it, which means the circle grows. And so it was always that stepping out, and I just continue to do it. And I think I'm an opportunity. So I get excited. I have an idea like you guys, you know, packing up your house and living like a nightmare. We get off. We get intoxicated, and the feeling of excitement. And you know, those thoughts in your brain mega. That's an amazing thought. And I can do that, like I have the gifts or the talents to actually make that happened. And I'm excited by that. Once you say that, it takes a very disciplined person to say no. And because you so it just drags you in. And that's happened all through my life. Like I was like, you know, I was doing graphic design. And then I was like, life coach, that looks awesome. And I did that for a while and I was like our travel. I was season I was travelling, so Jerry Springer, Ricki Lake, and all those guys doing TV and I was like, that looks fun. And I did that for 10 years. And I was like, right, yeah, looks fine. I'll do that. And then in radio, I was like, yeah, maybe I'll create an app. And you just that I just follow. I just follow the things that tickle my fans.

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He had that idea while you're doing radio, cuz Exactly, yeah. Is it long term thinking?

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Yes, because it takes a long time to reach what I want to do in it. So it is like it's not like are I can I could do that. Because every goal is so ambitious said it takes me a while to get there. So it

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it is long term thinking yeah.

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And I guess the other interesting thing is with say, get away with the radio, you're getting the rewards, then in there, you get a nice salary you get to do and the lifestyle is great. This is an interesting one, because what you sort of describing is the lifestyle is a little bit fact that the the monetary reward isn't necessarily there. So you've got to have a long term, it's

17:06
like an all or nothing. Yeah, like you literally, it is your banking up three or four or five years. And you either get something massive, or nothing. But genuinely,

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how would you feel with if you get nothing?

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I think

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a couple of things, I'd be pissed, because

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I'd be peace, because if I get some money, I bought myself some rest and actually quality of life, gentlemen. So which I feel like I deserve. And I don't need a lot of money, but I just I would be pissed if I was like, Oh shit, I've got less money now than when I started. So and then I go, I've got to now get back up and dust myself off quicker. Whereas if I do, okay, I bought myself some freedom on so I will have been transformed as a human. And, and, and I actually strangely enough, even though I've had to sacrifice a lot of Tom is a father and a husband and a friend and a son, and a brother. I actually think I'm a better husband, father, brother, Sam, because of what this process has taught me. And, you know, as always said, it's not what you get from it. It's who you become. And I'd be I'm already very happy of who I become. But the problem is, I've learned so much I got such a great education. But the best thing that I could do with all of that learning is fucking never use it again. Yeah, because if it succeeded, I'm going to throw my phone in a like, I'm going to have a bit of coin. I'm going to do some passion projects, and I'm going to be busy as hell, but doing stuff with no pressure. And I reckon that that would be awesome. And so that's what I'm banking on. That's what what what am i aiming for love to live in North bond Iran, the sunshine, and I'd love to live a really good life. And I'd love to travel a lot each year. And

19:03
you have not have done that with the sort of coin you made it remember it? I

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would have been close. I would have been probably couldn't have bought property necessarily in bond. I but I yeah, yeah, I could have been close.

19:18
Because I wonder if it's the case of you. You never gonna arrive?

19:23
Yeah, I asked that question a lot to myself.

19:27
I think I'm at the age. I don't know. I think I could manage it. I when I started it. I thought now I'd probably back it up with something else. But I don't know. I'm in Hi, Mr. Man behind

19:41
Irish bike who is on your hundredth episode?

19:45
He he talks about that as the greatest radio experience if he's lost, by the way.

19:48
That's good. I mean, most people on the show, yes.

19:52
This is my least favourite thing about work at work. Next on camera, and he could you said it as a joke. Shut up. Hey, RMB. And you know, he's always wise beyond his years, but he was only about it. 9am. And he remember this storey that he rolled out to me at his house in Sydney. And I was like, I might get this wrong. But it was like a shoe shiner. And the business runs getting his shoes shiny. So the shoe shiner. You know, you know, what are you doing for the rest of the afternoon and the guy goes along the beach, just relax, enjoy life and the business and was like, Man, you gotta work hard. And the shoe shine is why well, you work hard, you save some money. If you can save some money, you can start to buy some other Keats then you can hire some younger people, your high some younger people, then you build up a bit of a business, you know, and then all of a sudden one day you just, you know you're able to just and the Charlotte goes wat sit on the beach, relaxing the Sato die. The businessman goes, Yeah. What do you think I'm about to do?

20:53
Well, have you sit on our show? I know you listen, so I'm just repeating it for you, Jules. That he's this is the year for him Do not much. Yeah. And I don't know how. I don't know how you'd go doing. Not much. Because

21:06
you're busy dude. No, but but that's where I have the file size. As I said, I'm going to be very busy. So you're going to be very busy. That's what I'm going to do all going mad. But this is being busy and is being stressed. Say for instance, if I was doing photo books, you know, of all of our adventures, if I was going on photo travelling trips, you know, if I was doing artwork, if I was mentoring younger people if I was doing guest spots, that's being really busy, but none of that is stressful. You know, I would really enjoy that. And that would be expressions are great. A lot of books, I would try to get balance I'd probably learn how to do Photoshop and Final Cut Pro and so I would definitely fill it with all those things. But I'd go at my own pace and at the moment I don't own my own time because I've chosen this ridiculous ambitious project

21:57
Do you get sucked into the it's all almost becomes the drug this trace the driver for you? Yeah, well,

22:02
that's a question like I would definitely have to be conscious of Yeah, but there'll be no like I would start to do the photo books and go I reckon I could do an app for these. You know, I'm frustrated. I reckon there's an easy way and then before you know it, like date, like even just today I was thinking man if I wasn't doing this, I reckon I'd be out there creating swivels for TVs now that i j TV is just launched Instagram TV. I said this, you know there's going to be so much content vertical. I said the TVs in the house are going to want to swivel.

22:35
If you Yeah, if he if you get onto that early, you'd be you'd

22:39
imagine it like he pivoting to that. Hey, it's Mr. swivel.

22:43
swivelling, Josie, it doesn't get any better than this.

22:47
We had Jeff Jarrett on who grew his company body trim to $35 million river, you lost it all. And he said, but one of the things he said was, he's he's drug addict. addiction, sex addiction. He told you all this goes on. He's done a full YouTube and he's broke. And he has no money in his bank account. But he's happy.

23:11
Blimey, without a ball. No.

23:17
Drugs with heaps of cash.

23:19
He said success came easy to me when I was young. And you could look at your success you got on what age would you give and get away?

23:27
2323.

23:30
And it's so young. Do you think stuff came easy to you? Or do you think success? You didn't you were around success quite early. And did it come easy to do you think? Yes.

23:43
Yeah. Yeah, I attracted it was it was amazing. Like it was mind blowing. There was a period there in my life where it was like, I couldn't believe it. Like I could not believe it.

23:58
You're a bit manic depressive. I am Oh yeah.

24:02
Without question. Completely manic but I remember that period.

24:09
Like even even in the the hos of

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even at the height of adventure RMB. so depressed. My serotonin levels like I did it I was doing to travel shows up at one stage I think I did. I did like 120 days of shooting in like, every continent on the planet with it dies off. So I was like, I'd be in the locks or in Egypt. In a hot air balloon. Two days later, I'm hosting the red capital Okies. And then three days later, I'm in a shock cage in Cape Town, Africa, and then I'll be off and I just travelled around the world doing that stuff. I remember at the end of it, I was always depressed, insecure, I could remember half of that. It was it was mad. But back to that, that early days of success, I think, you know, just there was a universe thing that was happening. And it was, it was it was uncanny. But the good thing is it was contagious too. Because I was doing that I obviously add got into a universal zone or something of belief around rage. That it It ended. There was a group of us that were I would have genuinely side one on. And so it was really cool to see. See, what happened off the back of that?

25:31
Well, half the people who in the radio industry TV, you either grew up with them or best friends with them. Do you think Have you had that conversation around? High mission with her and all these these guys have effective? We all do.

25:47
I think we just looked at each other when easy. And when it happened. It was it was it was it was it was unreal. And also, you know, there's plenty of talented, you know, you go out to pubs and you be sitting with someone laughing your head often. There's plenty of talented people out there. It's just honestly we just somehow I want to call it got the foot in the door. Everyone was talented, doing their own thing ambitious, like you guys are doing all the exact same thing. And it just, you know that time in, in the industry, it just they needed a whole wave of young blood. And then those guys trigger other people. And it's been awesome. It's great to sort of see that. That big policy in traditional media,

26:28
how do you hire people? How do you work out what a because I guess there's a big difference between what you are in regards to doing your own thing versus if you might not necessarily make a great employee. So how do you work out what sort of people to bring into tribe?

26:46
Um,

26:50
as he looks at to his employees?

26:52
Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I don't have to do a lot of the hiring.

26:58
Is it some of those belief, sort of systems that you have? Or this this idea of, you know, those things that you attribute to your success when you were younger? Are there things that you can actually bring into this team of the things that you bring in from reach?

27:13
Yeah, I'm not not nearly enough. Like I sometimes I feel pretty guilty that there's not enough heart in the business because we're so frantic, but I always believed that I would have a company with a bit more depth. And, you know, I don't feel like I've brought enough of that here. Luckily, they all love each other, and they're investing in each other, but I reckon I could help influence a bit more of that. But, um, you know, I think, I think, I think there's certain qualities that they say, may express that I think has a well, what they tell me is it has a good influence over their perspective of the world. So the first one being, you know, being comfortable with being uncomfortable like that, I understand that all of the growth, all of the gold dust in life comes from discomfort, you know, everything from Lucas looking opposite, you know, your partner, and for the first time telling them you love them, you know, that's, that's really vulnerable and uncomfortable, but that's the only way forward. And so, and that, that's for me, having said that, as I said to you before, there's a lot of tension in that, but I love when my team, I say to my team, right? What's your challenge for the next couple of months, because personal growth is such a big part of this company, like, we've got people that are moving on to other other opportunities, and we just cheer them, because as long as they're scaring themselves, we sad to see them leave. But, you know, for people to come through here for a couple of years, and then go and do something overseas or start their own business is really satisfying. And so yeah, I love it, when they, when I say what's your challenge, and I said, and I you know, often all side, some of the young guys honestly, on stage in front of 200 people, I want you to do this presentation on there, and I want you to be yourself and, and do what Jim did to me, which is just push myself a little bit give you give you give you the belief, the faith that you can't fuck up. And, and the opportunity alone will will help you develop into a better person. And so those things are good.

29:23
There seems to be a bit of a shift in the sense of maybe it's gone from you can't fuck up to you will fuck up. And that's okay. Do you think that is that sort of a shift that you're saying? Or is that always because the whole fail fast thing is is nothing I was

29:38
talking about this yesterday, this event? The fail fast?

29:43
I mean, you guys know me, I don't I don't, not only do I not want to file but I don't want anyone around me to file like, I fucking hide it my ego. You know, I, I have a standard of what I want. And I don't care if anyone's watching it or not, like I want it to be good. I think if you don't do a good, what's the point in doing it? I I'm trying to, I'm trying to reconcile where I sit within that file fast. Because we push hard, but I like to be conceited. Because I like to think things through rather than just throwing ourselves out there, I suppose maybe these levels of it. But you know, you, you know, like I said until the time we do this a DM this email tool, the content creators in Australia in the UK. And I just said to the sales directors in both those markets, you know, impressive young women, I'm like, Man, you got to just talking to a camera and send that to all this design just telling us so amazing trolling they would love access to someone is, you know, such positive role models like you to women. So they're doing that and I just talking to the camera now, you know, me if I if he years ago, I would have been too shaky to this to that, and whatever. And I just took a night and go look at that is amazing as brilliant, you know, we can talk shut up in different ways. But, you know, given No, no, they don't have to hit any benchmarks, do your best put it out there. And because I now know that that's the growth for them. And also that's my own personal growth, which is, let's just get shit done. So I don't want them to file in doing that.

31:18
But my idea of what failure was is definitely relaxed. What was it?

31:24
What was the thought of failure for you? Well, you got I mean,

31:30
like, micro managing, and I still do it, but you know, micro managing things to, you know, dotting the i's, crossing the T's and just being like, it's, it's not a, I have a different standard. And I whip myself if I don't reach it. So, you know, I feel feel for the people that are around me,

31:51
you know, me pretty hard on myself when we went up to Sydney a couple months ago, was so interesting, saying you talk about what you're about to do, which was a talk in front of a bunch of people. And I haven't looked over the script. And you nailed it. And I saw how hard on yourself you were seems like that's a fucking joke. You saying what is reality? And I guess it may be keeps you to a standard that allows you to go out and do that.

32:18
I To be honest, I nailed it because of that. Well, that's my belief. So but ironically, the way to trick me is to go right, you know, like do any prep and go up there and say I go and in times of that luck, I've Niall does too. So, but I don't feel confident. Which is I don't trigger that. The magic in me unless I feel

32:41
I feel prepaid. And so the preparation is where I SAP all my energy.

32:45
But the interesting thing about preparation, like if you use the analogy of skateboarding, it's like, if we know that you if you're going to do difficult tricks, I should I'm the least fuckin like I shouldn't be talking about. The only time I've been on a sky boy. Anyway, Scott using the skateboarding analogy is if I was to skateboard, if you if you have had the if you know what it feels like to fall, and you can accept, yeah, that, yeah, then all of a sudden, you can go hard on the trick, knowing that falling isn't actually going to be the worst thing ever. And so it's almost having that acceptance, I may I find it interesting to get your take on entering the startup world, the technology world, this idea of minimum viable product, because it's probably everything that you're against God's perfection, you know, perfectionism and stuff like that, you know, do you do you believe in the MVP? Do you do it here?

33:41
Yeah, absolutely. And it kills me. It's just so against my grind. And it is the constant discussed? I can hide it.

33:52
Well, the thing I think that it's the one I've began to learn or understand is that there's multiple realities, these multiple truths. So the idea that what we think is good is different to another person. And so when we think we have a shit episode of the podcast, we'll have someone rideshare really connected with it. And so

34:15
is that Lynn?

34:16
Exactly. My mom's never written in? Actually, I think she's a she doesn't know the password on her iPad. That's my fault. But that's her own mistake. A bit the Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, because it's a good way. It's the best way to test assumptions. If you have everything perfect out. How you ever going to test your assumptions on something? Yeah,

34:39
it's it's

34:41
from the outset.

34:44
It is broken. And like, if ever there was something is going to test my pursuit of perfection. Yeah, it's MVP. Yeah. Because I just, I just have to accept where we're at. Not where I want us to be. I cannot will it any faster? Yeah, technology is like, it is so slow. It's impressive. But you know, all you see on the outside is a few buttons, etc. But these bosses if you say screens, yeah, I've got, you know, 15 developers out there black screens with little running. Like the amount of code like our app must be like if you were to print it on pipe.

35:38
That's what you do every every Monday check printed out. I told you

35:45
like the amount of effort and that's that's the reality like so I yeah, I can't. Yeah, it's really fun.

35:53
What about looking back at old work? Do you look at stuff that you didn't thought at the time this is the the bomb, this is amazing. Batten's back inside this is she

36:03
not know often when I look back? I say it objective way as an audience member. And I go, that was good. There is at the time. Yeah.

36:15
And nothing's changed. The thing is that nothing has just got in the content is your reality. Yeah,

36:20
I just as I would have stepped back, I could see the wood from the trees.

36:24
Yeah, no, it's I mean, he had this stuff I go, that's amateur. Like that's early on. But I'm pretty forgiving of that. And to be honest, I don't have time to look back.

36:34
Like I mean, I mean, you know, watching me get away with sort of Donald Trump, you don't go back. I would hate

36:42
to see how fit I was.

36:45
I was probably sucking my gut and feeling fat, but I'll swap that body.

36:50
How do you, you have you how you know, you are hard on yourself? Do you know that you had on yourself?

36:55
Yeah. But I'm hard on everyone. I know.

36:59
I'm not very pleasant.

37:01
It's funny, the stress stuff I know, you've, you've encouraged me to get in these stressful moments. And it definitely does work. Like getting the comfortable getting comfortable in that stress.

37:14
We can get inspired through anger and frustration. And like, that's a technique, it's probably not necessarily one that you want to

37:22
what I struggle with most and you guys will appreciate.

37:26
Is that a good leader? Lots of far within his team. A good manager lots of far onto them. Yeah.

37:36
And you're like the whole building on fire. Burning.

37:42
So I,

37:47
I, I really struggle.

37:51
They

37:52
like I think that's like I can inspire people, but it feels so much more effective, effective. Put a rocket under them. You know, I like I but yet, it doesn't work. Like it's, I'm too I'm not disciplined or measured enough to be able to give them this, you know, and within reason, I'm being hard on myself here. But when there's pressure, I just revert to do a lot is let's get it done. You know, as opposed to in those moments of pressure in when there's no moments of pressure, I can inspire people and I can talk from the front. But the rest of the time. You know, I feel like when they when it's happening, I don't have the discipline to just go have faith, it's going to be okay. Instead, I'm like, the got the back of the machine gun over people's heads.

38:41
Why would you? Why did you decide to hire a CEO?

38:46
Because I couldn't do it. You know, I

38:48
say my dad does. And I know you couldn't do

38:51
you have to pick up things from high places?

38:53
Yeah, exactly. seven foot I but

38:58
no, I just look, you know, when I started this, I was 3435. Like, I'm knows, I knew I knew it look at took me all your life, you know what your strengths are? Right? Because you sort of drawn to those and you work your ass off. But it was very apparent to me with a mature conversation with myself that I had to acknowledge my weaknesses and my weaknesses where I didn't know anything about business. You know, I had not I didn't have a business Brian, I had no idea and if I was to get this thing off the ground I needed someone fast, smarter, and and more experienced than me so and to be honest, that's been the biggest gift of the process you know, working with and and the partnership that we have. We are so similar and so different. And but yet we're so close, and we call each other and our shit we pick each other up.

39:53
What's your shit?

39:57
Most of what I've just like down in this therapy session. I yeah, I mean the same shit. It's like impatience, wanting things to be wrought. Wanting to be having moments of create wanting more spice for creativity, but really being stuck in the business side of things.

40:21
Has having that relationship. How do you approach it? Have you struggled with nature with expand? Yeah.

40:30
What's the answer that again,

40:32
the relationship you formed with here? How have you approach that? Is it been painful at times? How do you make a successful relationships? I think it is now on a successful

40:43
on a like no ego. So you just got you can't fucking have any ego, none of it. Like literally like we, you know, he smashed me in San Fran about 10 days ago, and I deserved a few days later, I smash team and you just stop the game.

41:02
I just love this slide. Yeah, we just have a blowout, just last

41:07
night just by absolute just just

41:11
is that like, it seems extreme. There's an extreme element to it, right, which is on a pressure sort of things.

41:17
And we're travelling, you know, we've spent half the year together, travelling out of you know, like, so we spent a lot we've spent a lot of time together. And so, you know, you start to you know, you spend a lot of time you hear each other's patents, and you know, you you just get

41:31
triggered by all this. Yeah,

41:32
it's amplified. Yeah, I suppose it's just amplified, as simple as that. And, but we just gave each other really good feedback on stuff we both needed to hear. And we both thank each other, even though you feel like you're cutting to bits, and you're deflated. And the last thing you can afford to lose is confidence. And yet the other person is they're saying, Come on, and it's really you got to be really mature. And that's so new for me. So in terms of what myself CDs with an answer, like might you can't say that, well, you can't be like that. Or you can't, you know, like, I'm like three years ago, compared to who I am now and thinks I'm pretty loose. And I'm like, you have no idea. Like, there is like 5% left. Is that guy that is fun. Yeah, right. But, you know, three, four years ago, he man I wouldn't even have a conversation to get a look. He would be frightened by a person like my end to be honest. inappropriate. And, and and not. To be honest, really. Just immature. A lot. Just not cool.

42:38
Has your emotional intelligence grown? Yeah.

42:42
Yeah, absolutely. empathy.

42:47
tolerance.

42:54
But mostly the conversations with myself, you know, I like it's, you know, like, having empathy for my own, you know, like, you know, you can be really like, as I was saying, before you be really hard on yourself. Like all of us, you know, we can always be really hard on ourselves, but in this process, might just doing your best is pretty bloody good. You know, you go to every now and then you just gotta go. You know, you can obsess over that for the next couple of days. How about you don't. And that's, that's been hard to do.

43:24
And I think the jobs you are in radio and TV, they didn't allow you to, or they didn't push you to have to work on that. Emotional Intelligence awarded you for being a fuck, wait. Okay, yeah.

43:39
Oh, except for TV. But radio was just mad. Like, don't forget, like, radio is all about drama and shock and things going wrong and tension and all these weird stuff. It was almost like, you were just looking for

43:58
drama, everything like,

44:01
you know, friction. It's there's a friction to it that. But that's the thing. I think that the interesting thing with you, Jules is there's you play in light and darkness. So you're the the ultimate friend in the biggest bullet all in the same time. I think that that's a really interesting sort of, and that's, and I think that, you know, our relationship when we were working together versus after the fact it's one of those ones where it's like, you can cut people down, but the same time you're the first person to give the best reference in the world. I think that it's, I think that it's all of this stuff isn't black and white. Like it's I don't think you can say it's good or bad. It's a it's a perspective type of thing.

44:48
I think it's what it comes down to is usually

44:56
pressure. So I met my worst pressure on my best when there's no pressure. Yeah. And so, you know, like, I am a bully. When there's pressure, you know, like I need, I

45:15
fought on the London subway about what Janet meant.

45:20
Well, I think that jewels had a great point. I was taking candid style photos, but I was asking him to smile. And he said, Well, if you want them to fucking be candid, I'm not in a good mood. So I don't want to smile. I said, How about we do the style of candid but you can smile?

45:36
And I say, Do you want that long lens up your ass or

45:43
not wanting to smile? That's Canada? Yeah. It's the I mean, that's the it's the pressure and it was the Euro, you put the pressure on yourself, and you put it on the others around you. I mean, it's unhealthy isn't, you know, it's quite toxic. Which which, funnily enough, it works beta when you're the boss, you know, because

46:03
there's less resistance in a strange way. Like,

46:09
you know, there's also the power there, so you're respectful of the pit because you are the boss. Yeah, you also realise that you can say the seat and it's where it will playing in this interesting game where it's like, I had four different bosses. So I had

46:22
Yeah, and I wasn't one of them. Yeah, the g8 always the biggest say that. It's actually really good point. Like, when always, when I was like, I would drive you like a boss budget. From your perspective, I wasn't your line manager. Yeah. And so it was doing to begin with, but and same with Blake who's before you. And then

46:48
this was the weirdness of it. And this is what like, the thing that I learned through all of this is you can have multiple multiple manages, just ease is don't like what I find if i a single person, that I know that as long as they're happy. It's all good, then it's very easy for me to understand. So when I was working in Bartow, the best times was when I was reporting into the CEO, because I could, I knew that if I had an idea I could come to him, no one was going to know middle manager was going to fuck it up and and undersell it, and all that sort of thing. And I could answer all the questions in regards to his return on investment. And yeah, it was definitely during radio, at the beginning it sort of they saw content and digital as these two separate entities. And they had two different bosses. And it was, but at the same time, they knew that you loved video, you loved digital, you were doing all of this stuff, but you were trying to do it in a way that wasn't the status quo. Within radio at the beginning, it was about Okay, let's, let's read let's range her for what's already out there online in regards to celebrity news and write about that. And what I love about what Jules was doing and what I you know, what we were aligned on was creating original content. That was personality driven. That was storey driven and it's taken it's been amazing saying how long it takes for companies to come around. Yeah,

48:16
well, it what what was interesting is that

48:21
which is what we discovered was that digital wasn't there to support radio, the digital was on channel, and that you had to treat those that were engaging with your brand in digital is if I weren't radio listeners. Yeah. And yet no one could even comprehend that we say no, these, this is a different audience. This isn't the same audience. This is a different audience that might never heard the radio show. And that's how we're going to talk to them. And so we were able to create brands online that wasn't dependent and was able to you know, cuz everything up until that point was dependent on them being listeners, you know, he's, you know, tune in at four o'clock today, we're doing this phone, or have you got any examples? Or, you know, or was like, Hey, you know, jump onto our Facebook and say, the chewing gum and face hair we're talking about it

49:17
was the taste it was the hilarious thing that I learned was that it was a great lesson. I remember we were we did a video, and we're like, oh, let's create a little teaser video for it. And someone on Facebook said, Just tell us when the videos are? Yeah, it's a certain Yeah, it's a classic example of in radio, you know, you taste something, it's the exact same thing and it's the same thing that you doing with the tribe and everything like that. It's like, be native to the factory for me and, and realise that it's not about pushing, you know, radio was the ultimate push to somewhere out the arbitrage

49:52
that was trying to keep you in a you know, trying to keep you on

49:55
that channel. Time spent listening. Yeah, that is someone hooked for a new storey coming up. I pulled over and Google to literally do that just because I don't want to wait 15 minutes to hear what you're about to say about I pulled over and

50:10
that's amazing. That is actually a really that's a reason why

50:14
should why not anytime that you have a connexion deliver something that's worth?

50:18
Yeah, I just thought if you get a tap on the shoulder, especially in social, yeah, like if you're going to tap them on the shoulder, you're going to get their attention, satisfy them, like beginning, middle and end. give them what they need, then, you know, there's no, there's no, after the break in social

50:35
what happens with the this idea that

50:39
honesty? Right, so around honesty, I feel like within the the different industries, there's, people get upset when you tell the truth, when you say like, Hey, this is what we actually think like how going from a different industry and doing transitioning? How have you reconciled? honesty? How do you how do you know when to speak with what you believe to be true, when you just should shut up? Because you're going to rock a few boats or

51:06
people I don't think you can comment on any issues. Like I wouldn't have the courage to these days. It's not the game you're in. Not now. But I you know, as a white middle aged bloke, it is dangerous. You just can't I you just literally you can't do it. Like it's frightening, which is, you know, we've had a pretty good for a long time. So I think we deserve to carpet and be be vulnerable. I'm totally fine with that. But I, you know, it's a frightening. It's a frightening prospect. But it's in my business. I've never been more honest. And I actually in my industry, I really enjoy when I get to, like it goes in radio, I'd have, I think a tough time because most of the stuff with pumping up, right, because you're trying to sensationalise it to engage like it has to be a certain thing otherwise would just be pretty. like it'd be it wouldn't like you have to be larger than life. That's what I'm saying. Now it's lies, but you definitely have to, you have to inflight some things

52:05
does that. But who who is forcing that that's what I've been trying to work out lately. So with the daily talk show, it's, you know, we eventually going to get to a point where people will you know, save smart car, you know, with smarter cars, 4g connectivity, being able to listen to the podcast at the exact same experience that you would get on radio, potentially listen to us live, you know that the end of the day is the audio medium. So it's really interesting that we create all of these boundaries around what radio

52:36
radio so there's so much bread left in radio, and yet eat every every show sounds quite similar except for a couple of things. You know, they think when I went in there, I was like, right, let's, you know, I brought it out. And I mean, Hyman and he brought it out even more but but still, it's like it's so similar rod yet you could do do something completely different. And then on the other end of the spectrum, every podcast sort of sounds the same. Yeah. Because it's that conversation. So yeah, it's a it's a really good question. Do I think you ever have to sensationalise stuff to engage people? Absolutely not, you know, they wouldn't tune in you don't move there. It's just that people are in their car for 10 five minutes 15. And you need to set off some fireworks if you

53:27
look at the radio industry is a business now that you're a business owner, like Josh and I think about the overheads of a station if these things are flowed My god, it's good point. Not like your shit equipment.

53:41
On friggin Alibaba, the

53:44
amazing thing. What I love about this is

53:48
this is actually what I'm saying. This is what marshy uses to record a mission Andy when they're out and about right. And so the the idea that there's all of these extra expenses, like yeah, we're so Tommy and my new business is called big media company. I haven't

54:08
even told you about this. Oh, sure. I consulted with with

54:12
I didn't invest in your last one. He

54:13
says hey, we're, we're, we're live. So we're, we're going into business yet but it's big media company. We've got the domain. You know, I get off on demand. Yeah, I mean, I do too. I've got thousands of

54:26
dollars worth I need a prop I needed intervention on by this

54:28
big media company.com we've got big media company proprietary limited. We've got big media company on Instagram on Twitter. So the idea we haven't started trading, we haven't we haven't we we registered. We've got the entity we don't trust that trade until I get Yeah. But essentially, the the awesome thing that we've been talking about is having people talk about scale. And it's funny what people default to what's the scale of how many square metres achieve God or employee how many employees but what which talking about is big impact, you know, big scale in that regard, but actually a small team so you think about the Louis theories, the the Michael, you know, the michael moore's all of the there's an even within radio if you actually take the core team, yeah, you talking fuck all people nimble in approach the creativity that can come from being nimble? versus, you know, thousand square metres is the question artist, right?

55:27
If you how do you compete

55:31
with the volume of competition. So what I mean is, like, if you're disrupting how it was done five or 10 years ago, you win the rice. But now that you're disrupting millions of people also doing the same who've seen that opportunity. Because you know, Instagram TV, right? So launches wake RJ TV, and I look in there and I go, Wow, he's an opportunity for young God to know and have seen how you can build empires by being first early, and investing heaps in content. And so I sort of looked at that I thought, like, you could literally create your RGA TV channel and go bananas. And I went, but the sad reality is, you know, no, no, yes, that but everyone else is capable of that. And I was flicking through all these videos of people talking to the camera was like, every one of these people can present better than I used to present like as I you know, you're a good presenter, Tommy. And I was like, Mike, people like you and I, when you look now into everyone's Instagram channel, they are laughing they are casual they are eat what I used to do, in

56:39
fact, in candid, which is why I

56:43
couldn't do it.

56:44
And so but what I mean is like, you look and you go, fuck, you know what, what I was selling, you know, five or six years ago was really expensive on TV was that I could look natural and muck around with big cameras. And yet these billion of them doing it now. So

57:00
you want your stuff back? It was the least natural thing on earth. Yeah, you look at people, and really now, but he said the obvious play when people are looking Okay, first to the new platform.

57:10
Yeah, well, yeah, it should be. But the problem is now that everyone knows that, like, you know, if you were building youtuber non gave a shit about it, you've got a huge you when you were doing travel photography, when no one knew there was a value in it, then now you've got something of value

57:24
of a short game, jumping on a platform and riding it this thing. And I know like, there's companies,

57:31
you can build empires in that gold, Russia, and that slipstream What I'm saying is back to what we're talking about before is, and you'll have an answer for it. But I'm pumped. Yeah. Because you're itching in your seat. But my point is that when it feels like there's a flood of that same minimalist approach to what a big media company, and it feels like the world has already gone there. Now, how do you differentiate? Yeah,

58:00
so I think there's a few elements to the point around, you know, Josh just got out the business plan executive, specifically around I, you know, the Instagram TV, I remember, there was a guy who I worked with, who decided that he was going to go out and he was getting his drone licence. And because drones were getting beat his I'm gonna do drone photography. And at the time, I was like, This is the worst fucking idea ever, because what he was recognising was the democratisation of the technology. Yeah, the problem being. And what people struggle to understand is that if drones are starting to cost less, so that you can start your business that's happening across the board. So what no one is going to spend 1500 dollars in getting you out to do some sort of photo for real estate, I think they'll just go out and buy a drone. So there is there is that element of it? I think that what it comes down to is you need to stop working out what is the differentiating? What is your point of difference? And so for what Tommy and I are doing is we realised that the the actual only thing that we have, that no one else has, is us our experience now lens. And so what does that actually if you were to put a filter through it, what does it mean? It means that we're not just another guest podcast, we don't actually it's about short. It's about growth over a long period of time, rather than hockey stick, right? So we could get, say, we could have had you on episode one, and got a big influx of traffic bad. But what would it what would have that? What would have that really done right way? The way that way? going? At the moment, every episode we do we get to new listeners with you know, we've done the time of recording this, we've done over 115 episodes, so we get over 200 listeners every single episode. And so that slow growth, what it comes down to

1:00:01
us. But that's that's what I mean, that's doing it, Wayne, it's a mad idea. And slowly building equity in your offering is awesome.

1:00:11
Yeah. And it's the and I think it's the thing that it's, it's the work that we we also think that that is the point of difference is the showing up every day, too. So there's, it's the mix of showing up every day providing a unique offering. And the other thing too is we recognise Well, Tommy and I were having this discussion today, we put out an episode with a guest. And I didn't lead with the guests name and the conversation and would love to get your take on it. The conversation we're having was, should we be leading with the guests name. And so our thoughts behind on my sort of thought behind it was if if we lead with a guest's name, where we're inviting people, the fans of that specific person to listen in. And in that, in the specific case that I'm talking about, I felt that it was the in should be the topic, the specific topic that we're talking about. And then it's about the guest. And then now hopefully, enjoy what we're we're doing. So I think it's about having that those those filters and being deliberate and not just, I think when I interviewed you five years ago, four years ago, whatever it was, for Josh speaking, I did a total of 10 episodes over fucking four years. Did what it worked out to be one every six months. But the thing is that it's there are a lot of people because the barrier to entry is low, there is a lot of people giving a crack. And I think that there's the voice in our head, especially after saying over 10 years of podcasting, where it's like it's too late. We've missed the boat, and not another fucking podcast.

1:01:52
Yeah, I certainly wasn't meaning Yeah, the podcast, I meant more the big media Academy in terms of his, you know, like, the offering of, you know, doing something minimum minimal and building a big, but you've got to end as I said before, it's it's not what you get from it's who you become. And if you keep crafting and building, you know, you're you're sharpening your skills.

1:02:18
And that's the value of it.

1:02:21
Yeah, I think with big media company, specifically the difference or, as well as around an original content offering. So what we realise is that, yes, we can charge 15 $20,000 for a client video. But, you know, and if you if you type in video production company, my business will be, you know, one or two on the listings on Google. But the thing is that as we go on as the this democratisation happens, and younger people come in, that's going to become more and more a commodity, you don't want to be a commodity. And so what we end up only having is ourselves in the creativity and the artistry. Now, you just got to lay

1:03:08
out what I love about that is, and I absolutely back he goes 100% it's, I actually also don't think you have to be very different to be very different. And I think that your unique combination of expertise and view of the world allows you to sit in a very different position than the masses. And you know, being commercially friendly being understanding the media landscape, the brand needs, all the way through to understanding how to craft quality content at speed. And so you know, like that, that can be everything. And don't forget, all the masses won't be accessing the networks that you guys will be. So there's,

1:03:57
if we're controlling the value that way, bringing because we are in charge of that, then, then that's where the difference lies, because someone can, like you said, Josh, by the camera pointed at something and shoot

1:04:11
and we're also scratching an itch. I think that there is a it's that classic case of you saw through your experiences, you know, doing influencer marketing, that there was this huge hole and you you filled up with tribe and you can sell you can sell every day on the fact that you say this problem, you solve this problem. And you come in and you fix it.

1:04:35
So is it is the real question.

1:04:40
So how you guys gonna go with each other?

1:04:46
and feed? So is this your Was this your engagement? This

1:04:49
is the onboarding?

1:04:50
Well, Josh, and I've run simultaneous businesses in the same field and found ourselves coming together to talk about them. Yeah, and to bounce off each other. So we basically primed ourselves for the last two or three years, you guys smashing each other with tough love every now and then we have really difficult conversations. Yeah. And and if you can't live through them, I don't think you'd even entertain the idea.

1:05:15
What do you miss together? What are each other's blonde spots? That's a whole episode.

1:05:19
I think we have very different views on the world. And I think it's, I think Josh helps me with some of my narrow thinking on topics and empathy towards things. And then I think I help Josh simplify some of his wide broad complex.

1:05:40
I think I'm an over thinker, and Tommy over simplify, simplify things. So yeah,

1:05:45
what you wanted to say was, you're an over thinker, he's an under.

1:05:51
Yeah, oh,

1:05:52
well, there's definitely maybe arguments where I'm like, Tommy, you wouldn't know. I'm complex thinking right now. So you just don't understand what I'm saying.

1:06:00
You don't have to bother you better walk into a tree.

1:06:04
It's the it's it's definitely about being able to have those hard conversations. But But I think where it comes down to is were aligned in the vision and the vision for us with this podcast was we want to, we want to scale our friendship in this and that sounds like very fucking ways a word in startup. But what it means is, I know that when I was, you know, working for myself, it can be a very, very lonely journey. And Tommy and I having conversations regularly, we realised that might ship having just having a conversation, you can take something that was very difficult in your head, and really be able to reconcile and understand it.

1:06:53
Yeah, I couldn't do what I'm doing. I had not had Anthony Yeah, like, there's no way in, but also, just another that the, the, the, you know, invest in each other's growth, you know, and the best way to do that is to call each other on each other's bullshit. It's, that's, that will be the best that that'll be the biggest reward that you get through it. Yeah, I think that you you sort of able to find, and, and help the other person become aware of things that they can be better on, and you're going to trust in the other one cares about you that it's not a game of ego.

1:07:33
Yeah, you said they trust you've hide and with the intention to build trust, and the relationship whereas Josh, and I have the last couple years, we've actually been building trust. And then Iowa, I know that he's always looking at me, thinking ahead for what that will look from it look like for me, or will that server space, we can

1:07:53
sell each other, you know, better than we can sell ourselves. But also, it makes that we can, yeah, we've had, you know, early days, the first you know, two years ago, we were on a client job, I was a subcontractor for Tommy, the shoot didn't go as planned. And the client said, Hey, guys, you know, this was a retainer job. And I said, Guys, we're gonna have to sort this out next time. And I said to them at the time, I'm like it well, you're not gonna have to worry, because I'm not coming on board. I bought the building. And yeah, it's classic. It's a classic. JJ move. I fuckers. You sent me a man when I quit this. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's a patent. I know that it's about what

1:08:38
happened. What happened at the time was,

1:08:40
it was it was a job that sort of was always a bit funny. And there was things that weren't communicated. And it just kind of the scope got bigger. And I hadn't set it up properly. And Josh was on just helping shoot it. And so there was a lot going on. And Josh saw the writing on the wall. And in the moment, he saw his moment, on the shoot to tell him that he's not coming back.

1:09:02
Well, the thing was,

1:09:05
I was like, Dude, that was not the right decision. Because it just emailed them

1:09:09
after. The thing is, it's a, it's an agent,

1:09:11
I finally wanted them to know,

1:09:13
I fucking hate middlemen. Right. And so the thing was that what I was annoyed at was getting a small piece of the pie as a producer to produce a piece of content. And the thing was that the agency wanted to write the script. And that was their contribution without doing a shit house job of it. And so and the thing was, they couldn't. And so what happened in the moment was, they added on an extra bit of the script that wasn't that wasn't priced out. And Tommy in the moment, said, they funded on it said, Hey, we just go do this extra bit. And so Tommy, in the moment said, I made that wasn't sort of in out, run, shake, we don't have that. And I bit my tongue, the guy cracked and said, we'll talk about this later. And then he sat us down and said, You can't be doing that on set. I said, Well, you need to be communicating up front what we're doing. And he said, Well, we, you know, we can't be having this. And I said, well, you're not gonna have to worry about I don't know what Tommy is going to do. But I'm speaking for myself right now. I don't need to work like this. And so. And yeah, I've had, I've had those moments, but it's been a great, it's been a great

1:10:20
respond.

1:10:22
He responded, where it's, I could say, Tommy sort of being like, okay, like trying to understand it in his head. But I, I am still happy with, with that response, in a lot of ways in the sense of, I wish that Tommy and I being on the journey together, we can help each other make these decisions together. But at the same time, I've I have done that where, you know, within the, you know, within your business and all that sort of thing. You are your own boss, yes, you do have bosses, but you also have a standard in which you work. And so, for me, I have have, I have ended retainers with agents, I just don't back and work with agencies anymore. But I've ended retainers with agencies, where it's like, you know what, like, they'll see someone who is an individual working. And so we give Josh Janssen $18,000 a month, he's not going to walk away, I gotta say, there's something so liberating with being like, you've been, you've called me every single evening, and this is going over an extra week. And I'm going to walk away. And so it's, it's interesting, I think it'll be interesting for Tommy and I to, to be able to be a team and not have to do that alone. And the learning for me has been in communicating up front, I tend to go above and beyond, and then it just becomes the new norm. And then you wait until you're in a corner, and then you end up saying, it's not for me, rather than telling him two weeks earlier.

1:11:54
Yeah. Yeah, it takes assertiveness, especially with your own business. I mean, I've noticed Tommy being strong, younger and stronger, that you got to find that balance done, you figure it out, you know, like, because you can't just be doing your apprenticeship forever, otherwise, you're just getting underpaid and undervalued. So

1:12:11
it's, I think it's a respect thing, as well as self respect. And realising that, like, what is the metric in which we're using to measure our success,

1:12:24
square metres of an office?

1:12:27
But what is it is it's actually or, you know, like, is

1:12:32
what's even beyond that, it's even beyond that for it, you know? So that's obviously there's different ways that you can, quote, add a job, and also think that I'm even talking bigger picture sort of stuff, which is like, is this works that the reason that these things I'm happy to walk away from which is like, you gotta ask yourself some questions. Is this show real worthy? Is this good for my bank account, or these great people to work with? And if it's not ticking a couple of those boxes, they're assholes to work with, you don't want to put on the, on the show real. And the money's really good. You know, I'll take it.

1:13:09
Take it. And that's, and that's the cool and this is like, I think

1:13:12
we can't play the right guy, because there's someone that will come in and said, and then if they valid facing our value is the hour, then they're going to find someone that's less of value, but that's valuable to them. So they'll go with that.

1:13:27
And so what's the long game? So you you've got a kid, Josh, and Bry, you're going to have kids one day, possibly? Well, I mean, that's,

1:13:38
I mean, this is the only day job.

1:13:43
I think it's it's interesting, I think, that's been one of the things that Rob ward of quad lock spoke about it, which is like, there isn't this. It's easier when business partners are completely aligned in regards to lifestyle and what sort of thing brain I am planning on having kids. But it's actually perfect in the sense of Tommy, like, I love that I sort of feel responsible for Tommy and his family. And he feels

1:14:12
aside, he pulls me out more about working in the times where I probably shouldn't be spending time with my family. My is that going to be okay for the family,

1:14:20
as well. It's just that thing of like, I would agree, that's beautiful. I

1:14:24
want to create, you know, the point of big media company is not that we hustle so hard that we become fat and sick. The The idea is that we actually were, we're creating a business, that's a lifestyle business, not in the sense that we can, we've got some us that we're making a bunch of money off, but that we're actually doing the shit that we want to do every single day. Yeah. So when you're using that as the filter, the truth is that I've I have made, you know, when I first started, you know, 15 grand in a year as a freelancer, and I've done much more than that. And actually the thing that, like, the money thing starts become becoming less and less of a factor. And it's more the question of, are we doing the stuff that we want to do? And so, and it's also what are we prioritising if a Tommy it's about if Bodie and Amy is a big priority, then it means that maybe we, we only work within the hours that we give ourselves and we don't we say, you know, we pay an extra few hundred bucks to get the photography out on the Tuesday instead of the Sunday, even though the Sunday might be cheaper, because we have to pay for the studio, because that's the time that's valuable. So it's, it's a different, it's a different way of filtering stuff

1:15:43
you might like this feels, Josh and I've talked about everyone sort of waiting for that big break. And we, you know, see the says, choosing to have our big break, this is the big break, because everyone's waiting for this, and it probably won't come

1:16:00
realising that it's not. We're not, we're not creating a YouTube channel, to be on TV, we're not creating a podcast to be on radio. And it's so liberating. And it's the thing of this is the equivalent, what we're doing right now is the equivalent of when you got your drivetime shot slot in radio, we, the thing is we're on the exact same platform is a mission and is, you know, within iTunes. And so when you think about that, it's like okay, then all we need to do is keep going, we don't need to be waiting, waiting to be picked or anything like that we're building this thing. And so that's like, really powerful.

1:16:38
Yeah, you'd have a lot of talkers come at you, as in people just, I'm an entrepreneur, I've got a start up. And then you'd say slip away. On and I've been chipping in your ear for years. And I

1:16:50
haven't done what I love about that is you guys are the shoe shiner. You know, that's your like you like you're going to do what you love, and then you're going to enjoy your life. And I will wish I didn't have Yeah, I hope I can get there. You know, I'll be going a long way around. I'm certainly in the tunnel at the moment where it doesn't feel like I can stop or go back. So I'm gonna put my head down, but I love it. I think it's really admirable and, and more importantly, it's enjoyable.

1:17:21
So the developed I think the other thing too is its development. It's like changing the only thing that's going to remain the same in all of this as well. Like we're going to be like with ourselves, we're going to have ourselves so anything that we do, we like, as long as we're developing and getting better, then it's like, even if tribe isn't the thing. Like it could be something like something else could be the thing now go

1:17:49
right it's just like your radio show with us

1:17:51
like this is the thing you might realise that like you three tribe doing all of this stuff you'll be able to call bullshit so quickly on the default thinking so the default the the funny thing was when we start when we decided to do a big media company, the first thing Tommy and I did was we are one of the first things we got credit card. Now we actually we went and started looking at properties, right like laced up the laces. And then we had this discussion where we're like, actually, this is the exact fucking default thinking of a big company that we're trying to avoid. And we don't like the future of work and we're all of this stuff's going Why would we like that some SSL pacify from actually making progress if we were spending 40 grand a year on a fucking lease. Let's spend 40 k on a travel budget.

1:18:43
Let's do it. Let's do this. The big media company we looking I fact those guys in that caravan that just drive around the country doing podcasts and making videos. That's the life Yeah, exactly. That comes without those cementing factors.

1:18:57
We have to you have to sign our to some of the norms and what do you think it's okay,

1:19:01
guy? Okay, what's, what's the norm? What's the opposite of what's the norm Can

1:19:06
I was saying that to a person this morning is I was using an example of someone who was creating a marketplace and an app. And yeah, I was like, you know, you, there's a startup known, and you get stuck in it. Right? So you go, right, I've I want to, you know, create some technology. Well, that's expensive. So I'll raise money. Soon as you raise money, you're on the hook. Yeah. And so then you raise money. And then you've got to say, we're going to hit these targets so we can give you back more money. And then you've got to hit the targets and then it just and then you go rise moment and it like and so I was assigned her Hey, what if you actually just stop for a second? And said, that's the norm. But you just said how is there another way that you can express your passion Livia purpose, change the landscape of which you're trying to disrupt two minute balance, which, you know, saying you won't be able to do once you go down that, that path? You know, what does that look like? And she was like, Oh, it's really interesting, you know, because I said, there's another option or another way of doing it, and then move sort of, like, there's levels of what you bought off. Whereas, you know, the norm is biting off a massive amount, and you don't even realise how big you've bitten off until you you chewing on it. So that and that's how I feel with me sometimes, you know, it's like, once you're on your, you're on. And you know, there's sacrifices within that. And they and they feel like they're costly. Whereas the realities, what you're talking about is expressing things being rewarded. But you're not having to give up ridiculous amounts of things you don't value and like a lease and you know, all these other things that you know, you've conditioned to purchase because real estate companies and other businesses have been suckered into it. Yeah. stay outside the system as long as you can with this thing.

1:21:00
There's a lot of successful people reflecting on the success they had and how it nearly killed them. And then they're selling in finding that true purpose and passion to not have that Do you think there's a level Do you think you can get to that level of success without slugging yourself and putting yourself down the hall or into the into the tunnel into the train tunnel that you're currently in?

1:21:31
I don't know anyone who's added you know, I even people that are born with unbelievable GIFs like Hime is a great example of just you know, but even he's, you know, he's worked his ass off to even with that gift and that gift a line and could stand on a stage before he even worked his ass off and but yet he still worked really hard. So outside of that, then you might have people that have locked out. A doubt it? I don't know. I certainly don't think there. Because then you know, I sometimes wonder people that you know, that have got a tonnes of money. I think they probably have low self, you know, like low self esteem. What's their purpose there if they didn't earn the money if was inherited or if it was one? So that's lock rod, in some capacity. But I don't know anyone that's had I mean, that's how you then you got a question what is success? You know, like, what success to certain people you know, working four days a week is probably success.

1:22:32
So you got into try without understanding what successes for you?

1:22:39
Yeah.

1:22:43
I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's a human thing. Yeah. I mean, I i've

1:22:48
I'm passionate and I as I said before, I like I wasn't thinking about success. I was thinking about when that'd be awesome. You know, what if I'm just intoxicated by what if, and then say someone I got, let's just make that a reality. And then I start to move towards it and I'm bloody good in enrolling people. I'm like, if I can go do this, you want to join the team. Everyone joins the team and then raise some money and then he looked around he got Fuck, you're responsible for the table?

1:23:16
Interesting. You say what if one of the things that we've been talking Tommy and I've been talking about a lot is as if so rather than fake it till you make it, we had a guest on Peter shepherd who coaches for old MBA, which is Seth Golden's programme. And as if is around, okay, well, what would happen if we would do this podcast as if it had a million listeners? Yeah. And that's and that's what we're doing. We're not faking it will tell you you know, as we're recording this, we have 200 listeners. But we are trading this

1:23:51
and I reckon you them right now. We've been talking for six hours. Listening, I'll be fully customised. If you're still listening tweet me yet, Jules land we fascinated.

1:24:01
And this is the thing. And so the as if stuff for us was really empowering. It changed the narrative from lava fake it to make it which is this, this nearly died

1:24:11
mindset giving you confidence to even think you can exist,

1:24:15
but what fake it till you make it is this implication that there's a fraudulent and there's a misalignment between your values and who you are versus what you're projecting to be where we're just saying, like, we're doing this as if

1:24:27
you're really like that. So how can I use that in my life? So I tell you how it could use it, I could probably say to myself, why don't you enjoy your weekends is if you've already made it, you've sold the business

1:24:41
is neither

1:24:42
that is if it's going to say one thing I asked myself is like, What is that, you know, the journey not the destination, I'm not good at that. I'm so focused on the destination right? So I wasted a waste the good parts of the journey. But it's funny like it it all when, like when I look back on ghetto I like I used to take that so seriously, like, you know, around me going out on out on the town rod, it'd been some amazing place to be some is not in Africa, and they'd be all these people dancing, the straight people drinking, and I'll be out not going to get up early in the morning, going into a present, you're going to present it to camera. And I took a so friggin seriously, that I just missed out on so many good things. I look back and I go, what's the point of that? And, you know, even celebrations and stuff that I've cut short, you know, things that I would actually remember, but I can't remember why I sacrifice that for the work. Right? And so yeah, I just wanted to, with this process, if I knew I couldn't file? How would I live differently? And and what that basically says is, if if this was going to be an absolute winner, or if it was going to file either way it was going to file I should be enjoying my weekends, if it's gonna win here. Yeah, I know, it's gonna win. Yeah, I should be enjoying this.

1:25:58
And there's also very little control. Like, once you know that destination is not, you're not going to really change your

1:26:06
bank account. This is the bit that's where I it comes on, stuck it on, like, because I'm like, might look after the little things and big things happen. And that's the curse of a perfectionist that actually believe that every point 01 percent 10 of those adds up to 1%. And then you know, 10 of those is 10%. And if you just keep it, which is an absurd reality, because I'm the only one who's saying the percent.

1:26:31
Yeah, I think that there's, it's like a thing of, I've caught myself getting a text message or an email, it's something I've got to do, and I get a bit of anxiety about it.

1:26:42
But if you didn't say if I didn't say it,

1:26:44
I didn't know it existed and that sort of change. And so and it happens in so many cases where it's like you, you get your little, you know, think about the when you open up your phone, and you're refreshing the email you male, what's the what is your body doing? What is your mind doing? I know that I think of the four people who I don't want me to email because I can't be fact dealing with that project at that time. And so it's it's amazing how much all of these things way. And then so like, one of the things that I've been doing of light is it's like, it's that sort of as if it's, I care so much about what all how my clients, if my clients are happy, and all that sort of thing. But there's actually moments that I'm going through at the moment where I'm like, actually, that's not the priority right now. And so I'm going to act during this time, right at this moment. I'm not going to worry about I wonder if they've gotten the revisions. I'm going to work as if I don't care about that stuff. now. I'll pick it up tomorrow morning, and I'll be fine. And and it's been amazing what's like, what as acting as if this person's view doesn't matter has been

1:27:58
too great. It's actually a really good device to shift and reframe the narrative. It's a it's a really good one to do.

1:28:06
Can we thank Seth Godin

1:28:07
and I think it paid a shepherd on his his what's what's his blog? It's above the new send it to me. Yeah, yeah, he's doing some amazing stuff in Melbourne dude. killing it instead of the the New Age coaching, creative coaching, asking, asking questions getting the best out of people this I saw him in your feed.

1:28:27
Yeah, I mean, you were looking happy. He was looking happy Tommy.

1:28:31
Tommy was too. You know, he's a thing, right?

1:28:33
Why do you

1:28:34
not smaller? I had food in my teeth. And I did smile. Well, I think Josh chose the photo that he's here Look, the best thing

1:28:40
which is that true? I don't know. But

1:28:44
he was saying on the Dalai Lama, his chief, I've got it. He's

1:28:47
like, he didn't like the interview. So

1:28:50
be very careful on your food and your teeth. Because all of a sudden, my god enough I'll listen to money. One of the guys was

1:28:55
very, very turned that I took one for the team, Josh put the fighter that he looked the best. It's the daily

1:28:59
talk show, the thing that I want to just end this with is, you know, Jules, you're always so open. And in show that level of vulnerability. I think that the interesting thing is there's a lot of people who won't do it because they're, they're not at the you could look at what you're saying and being like, oh, man, there needs to be some self awareness here or there. But the reality is the fact that you can have that bird's eye approach and recognise that like, we're all a bit fucking broken and trying to work it out and doing this sort of stuff is hard. I think that that's it's admirable it's it's something that I think is inspiring and something that I take from what you do is it's it's being even if you don't have all the answers, it's saying, Hey, I don't have them and I think people there's probably a bunch of people who get a bit uncomfortable and probably say can you believe my investors

1:29:52
listening to this?

1:29:55
As if as if you've

1:29:59
been small.

1:30:01
Daily talk show Jules land. Thank you for being on the podcast, and deconstructing a bunch of things, including the business which is the first time we've spoken about it. So thank

1:30:11
you for being two very enlightened friends of mine. Because you do inspire me by TV, your hunger, but also you uniqueness in how you approach it. It's different to how I would do it, which is really refreshing. Thanks, buddy.

1:30:27
The Daily talk show everyone hi at the daily talk show.com if you want to send us an email, any complaints in regards to this and here's

1:30:34
Jessie J, where I can shape shift podcaster