- June 17, 2019
It’s Monday and we’re joined by Dan Debuf! Dan has spent the last decade in some of the top radio positions in the country, providing unique insights into broadcasting, writing and creative work. Dan has his own podcast called ‘Totally Obsessed with Dan Debuf’.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we discuss:
Dan’s podcast, ‘Totally Obsessed with Dan Debuf’
Schooling and self worth
Automation and creativity
The importance of consuming a breadth of content
Activism, virtue signalling and Instagram
Using mainstream media for good
Opinions and confected content
What’s next for Dan
Freelance and agency work
Dan Debuf’s Podcast, ‘Totally Obsessed with Dan Debuf’: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/totally-obsessed-with-dan-debuf/id1422600305
Dan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dandebuf
Cal Newport’s Deep Work – http://www.calnewport.com/books/deep-work/
Dan Ariely’s Predictably Irrational – http://danariely.com/books/predictably-irrational/
Watch today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4UP_aMN_CQ
Subscribe and listen to The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.thedailytalkshow.com/
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Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
It's a daily Talk Show Episode 370 we've got dan
de booth in the studio.
Hey guys great to be here. And just by saying in the studio you've massively undecided where we are like this is quite literally a studio like it's phenomenal that this wood paneling is your week that you are coming to Episode 241 it's now 370 in your just hideous grim bunker that used to pretend to broadcast from it was found
in comparison that it was a grim bunker
these are salubrious surrounds. Yeah, this is an indoor plants. Guys Guys, guys. I'm real. Yes. Okay, first of all, how does that
how do I get sunlight? We take them up every couple of days. onto the balcony. That's why we
have an intern actually. No, he's crippled now he can do those little tasks right a jail. Yeah.
I am. I was I was coming in I remembered I was triggered to the moment that I caught I think I called totally absurd central podcast. Absolutely.
10 look story or something. I can't remember the name. Yeah,
but that's still in the new and noteworthy. I want to know how long can you be in new and no,
I got it back in. So what happened was when I talked to you guys, I was doing what I call unofficial season one. Christmas break. So when I put I started off maybe six weeks ago, seven weeks ago. God no Mallory might have been even more because during Comedy Festival, and I kicked it off with Phil Jupiter's from nevermind the Buzzcocks, which is great. He's an amazing guy. And I just gave up a little heads up I was like, Hey, I don't know if Season Two premieres count as new and noteworthy but to me it's new and noteworthy.
could be wrong with that and all noteworthy like because the thing is I've seen it it's like a totally new
No Oh, just just thinking because I was like this. But I remember when I had my podcast, Josh speaking easier. There was faculty out there so you could see anyone noteworthy. I wasn't there for you.
Now there's a bit of a change to be honest.
The phone or I did in Shepperton on the main drag is like a bunch of old motels and one of them when I say old fucking old one of them had a sign on it said new mattresses and and been there for I think five or six years. And I and I did this finer. When can you How long can you say something's new form? Yeah,
or just a crazy business climber. It's I just assumed that all other motels have super
canned salmon and the tagline that this agency cooked up for this canned salmon was doesn't go gray in the can. And I didn't know that was a thing. It's not that's the thing. They just made it up. The whole other cans look bad.
You'd be always looking for the gray salmon
right? You go Oh, what if I open this one? I love that. Yeah,
there's some kind of who's the governing body like the street you know, we have some humor Phase I triple same if you don't allow to do that shit. Like we're thinking about what we can label this show. It's kind of inspired by Howard Stern.
exactly what it says on the tin token it's a show
Well, we're straightforward there but
yeah, you studied you did long period of time. Yeah. Got a little degree.
But yeah, so we're trying to work out what acid of like,
have you been injured?
Or French for us?
howard stern has the king of all media Yeah. Litecoin Dean
Yeah, practice with the stars is another really good why Yeah,
what was calling Jackie I would doing that when I
had all my god I remember hilarious one where we printed these posters and we got them back. Something like it says something like
dead mez there when you wake up for seven weekdays.
Know that all works. You know,
47? A little bit. Yeah, right. Who's waking up at 4pm? What's wrong with your life? I'm sorry. Yeah, it was something like when you wake up or something like that. So like, it's not from 6am? Because not everyone listens from 6am. Yeah, when you wake up to it, you that, you know,
it's so interesting. Like, why not stand how much shit is applied to like how much a thought goes into these things? Like you can create a story based on everything.
If you can make it stick though. I think it then becomes very powerful. Yeah, so if we like
so you're actually you want to do a brainstorm now what Kobe,
What was he like? The only daily podcast in Australia? I
don't know. Well, it's like the only well because we're going to eventually have live streaming and all that sort of thing. And so like maybe like could we be the first of something? But does it actually have we would say okay, so all right. What is the Guinness World Record for a podcast every day? Oh, yeah.
Find out where it is. debate it Mr. 97 can you look that up? I saw him I saw him move. And I said that
was my feeling is though that it will never be able to beat it. Based on some nerd who got in on 2004 Yeah,
or she doesn't exist. Yeah, or doesn't exist. Right here his best friends in the world record that no one's ever talked about
that. You've done it you've put on 7070 pairs of underwear or something. podcast no no but for you. Like a dumb Guinness world record that cow Stephen Avik would try
Yeah, I know. I definitely didn't want about trying to eat as many forever shares as possible in a minute and that wasn't even a client thing that was just we found we had world records that didn't exist yet to and just go like how hard could they really been? I've done that and that wasn't a recording anything. really depressed?
Yesterday I was filming an interview for a friend who was chatting to one of his friends are capturing an interview with a guy who is about to have some elective surgery, weight loss surgery. Very he weighs over 200 kilos. So like a lot production or a band or a staple. No, I think they actually removed Patty stomach now, right? Yes,
I know that. Yes. Yes. So what is less room to feel kind of thing? Yeah.
And so one thing that blew my mind was he said every day someone random. A random person calls me big boy. Yeah, that makes sense. Really. Did you get trolled? Josh, did you have any Mac shaming?
No. Yeah, I was 120 kilos, which is pretty big. Um, why don't we get on to fat 93 that but we do talk about it a bit.
Now for a little bit.
What's going on?
I guess is referring to the
the world record. Record This is scoffing for Ferreira Russia.
We did move
was not even half past nine. Okay, not good. I said I wanted to wake up and this photo for you. Yeah. licious, technical, mucky muck McMaster coffee so yeah,
but I think definitely
a machine is not an endorsement just love the product it
is a very good product a Dutch I believe makes sense. Yeah. Yeah,
we had the discussion because three day deal said something like if it's he lives in Canada and he said if I know the products from Canada I want need to wash it thoroughly. But if it's from outside so I need to wash it if it's brand new
is a racist
all those grubby Chinese hands all over it
do you use someone who racist not very much
How on the scale of I only buying China and Dick Smith? Will you sit on the scale in regards to dry ice could not care less? could not care less? there's anything that you would specifically only buy if it's in Australia like oranges would you be like a half from Cali I'm not I
get it I get a vague you know for a song of excitement every time I shop at some small local place rather than some giant monopoly. So you know actually walking down to a bookshop like a local bookshop and going hi I would like a book here holding my hand and walking back and going I'm keeping the wheels of capitalism turning and then checking on Amazon buy it on there put the book back in and I just dropped guys external something but um no I yeah, we are in this weird world now where convenience is the king Yeah, to everyone wants everything to be as convenient as possible and it's like, you know, how can you get a packet of chips breast for $4 because those chickens get brutalized right. So I do kind of go is I'll get the the slightly better one those ones is Rs PCI approved and you're lying bad so I think that what that means is we've gone online we find found out the minimum you have to do to not get sued by the ASPCA and we're doing just above that every chicken gets a millimeter more spice and those regulations you know the ones that are a bit more like Tommy and all that sort of stuff and they have local you can say the suburb they came from and you got on icing on the cake from Lily dial or something saying like what you're talking about Lily Dale chicken
Iris BCI approved right? It's not it's a step by step but the thing is though whenever I pay more for you Yeah, you're paying more so the people that can afford more can't be purchasing the stuff that is better
for the environment shouldn't be eating so much mate then miscellaneous severely underpriced you
don't even need met your
night. I just said I bought chickens What do you think? blob of chicken for
you. But what are you putting in your mouth
grows? Mister Mister 97 and lost his mind when three day deal came back and he bought
why you naming all your friends numerically. It's just it's actually that's a good three seven Welcome
to slightly spectrums easy to remember them. But the
enjoy. Finally I got that high numbers
never fell out of my spice top I
could you I'm trying to think with my space. Could you bring it lower than I think you do remember the view source? So a lot of people would hide? Yeah. And you could go view source and they actually say so it was almost like a bit of exchange anyway, but
those elements so hard.
Miss Mr. 97 nearly lost his mind and three day deal. came to the office and he had kept you bought caged eggs. Oh, yeah. Yeah. cnet's a user, isn't it? Yeah.
So yeah, not ideal. Yeah, not ideal. But it gets a little bit hot. We were in regional where the eggs from? I'm from China. But it's actually hot. I was trying to buy eggs over the weekend. And it's like, they use weird language. Yeah, like I think there was one. Hey, Jason. Yeah, yeah, it is a little bit like that doesn't identify. Yeah,
it's a bar and he lives in yet.
But you know, the well, there was one in the FDA, which is the Food and Drug Administration in the US. I was watching john oliver talk about the you talking about gastric surgery, he was talking about body implants, like pacemakers, etc. Right? Things like that. They have all these different devices that you can get implanted inside you, the doctor will say Hey, why don't you get this thing that shoots this chemical into this video body to make you better and that way, like insulins an example. And there's FDA. There's two types, right? And it's like FDA approved and FDA something else. And one of them is literal garbage. Really, it's not one FDA cleared an FDA approved or something like that. And one of them is just complete garbage. It's like
no kill you.
He showed it. Well, no one has actually approved it. Yeah, it just exists. Whereas the other one is like no, it has been tested improved. So you're basically a science guinea pig. Are you using it? Well, I remember, you know, 23andme the day and night like there's a bunch of them now, but eight of them did. Yeah. Yeah, he did. Right. And now you're on their list. Yeah.
What do you what do we think is actually what's the worst that could happen?
That is such a hilarious question. Right? So when do you remember like 10 years ago?
When we all started Facebook 10 years ago, whatever, like 15 years ago, we were all like, Oh, yeah, privacy. What does that mean? I mean, you know, I just want to put up any pictures of me drunk and I'll be fine. And now we've got Donald Trump. Yeah, but that's what the worst that can happen is that these things work in mind boggling Why's that? We had never understand and they will come back and bite us. Yeah,
I wonder the genetics one specifically? Because it is because it I guess you could you could use James like to clone people. Could you
like Is that a thing? I did I did. I my knowledge of cloning extends about as far as I mean, I was always a key to the 90s. So Dolly the shape was huge. That was the shape of a client. Yeah.
Did they stop that in there? Did they just completely and I'm
pretty sure there's other you know, cloning sources out there. The journal fun fact about Dolly shape. Yes. Fun fact guy. Do you know why she's called Dolly? The shape? Dolly the shape?
You're on the right track? Yeah. Because and this is some classic like, think about how work we are nowadays. Right? Because she was cloned from a mammary gland. And Dolly Parton has massive boobs.
And that's why really
yeah, could you imagine if that happened now Could you imagine the outright into shape would get milk checked in a heartbeat but but they also
that you can't climb? Like that's a roll now I can't climb things can you says oh yeah, I think Netflix will do it. There is like I watched a documentary on like the nuclear disaster in Ukraine. You know, like
we all know I
was watching a documentary about the tall statue in the US harbor of a woman with a torch
but that's really very popular at the moment should
should I believe the document?
Really? It's hot neither dramas here. The drama is not the same thing. I watched this thing on Amazon. This is a
Drama Series. Okay, but I haven't seen it
yet. But there's lots of people watching you might
say Don't forget again like you are watching this show. You might not have heard of it right. It's called Game of Thrones. And
I actually haven't seen any kind of right
now but I thought it was interesting. I also
have created a media empire so if
you didn't watch the dragon show, but yeah, you've got my calm that's pretty cool. Yeah, that's pretty legit. Do you like the mic? I really do. I'm kind of want i would love my dream desk set up would be like one arm like this and the other with a monitor. And I could just position them any way I wanted at any time because I just hate my mic. my mic setup totally obsessed is these little traveling tripods and the speed right? Yeah. And the mixer not unlike these but not these but they're this heavier
Yes. I road or what? Yeah, yeah. They want to they go into USB. Or they don't have XLR.
XLR over the three prong Yes. Yeah, like watching a microphone. I'm
trying to think they will the pod my
microphone. I'm trying to think road only road don't have I've got like the broadcaster. Anyway, we're getting very technical.
That's all right. Hi. Nice. People might love that. Yeah. You know, there's some stuff that people love and some stuff. Like oh, my can they talk more about their mic settings?
We've done that a fair bit. Actually. You do some audience research. email list.
We talked about websites and people having a chubby.
What about digital? You couldn't back and say digital charm on your show? Could you could you say job direct? You could say job? Yeah, you could. I don't like it.
I get annoyed. I get annoyed when I'm recording in about the 25 minute mark. Someone drops an F word. I gotta grind. I'm gonna put that explicit sticker on the spot. Because you don't want to lie.
The new and noteworthy I wonder if they don't like
that's kind of a part of it. But also Joe Rogan has no problem being
at number one of podcasts in the world, but he's
I'm here to be the podcast my mom can play to her class at school.
Fair enough. Oh, Daniel. Daniel, the language of the latest one. We were halfway through and someone said a very naughty word. Last week
because you actually know you can it's well there was one episode that didn't go to where that you did, I think was in the Sydney Comedy Festival. Can you based out? Yeah,
non-contact here. But
you can you can say anything? No, I can't
think is the right like personal brand. Yeah, it was bought. Yeah. And at the same time, there are a couple of other things that I was kind of was doing like these schools presentation. schools want to learn how to podcast so I kind of get sort of parachuted in to be like a rent expert on podcasting. And that's kind of like, you know, fun way to make money. I guess that was literally
I was talking to a mate this morning about this who's got a podcast and I was like, the conundrum that Tommy and I are in some some ways is we know we could make so much more cash teaching people how to do this than the actual thing itself. Yeah, I guess that's not the reason why
you do it. A solvent. No, no.
Okay, well, then don't stress too much. I can cash then. You're far better off if you don't need the liquid is
here in half an hour. But yeah,
it's actually watching the live stream get.
Going. 97 seven.
OK, so now
I issued a test. A test a challenge. before the show that I think we said it on air. Did we say
it was on air?
Well, you said 321 Let's
go okay. We wasn't on air. before.
We were live, so you're right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there you go. Okay.
So we said if the live stream on Instagram hits to 20 then Captain 65 or whatever. Chicken 65 is gonna issue i celebration sound. Yep. What was it Mr. 73?
Sounds like someone was talking to under lights like he's like, underwrites kids on a goddamn chat room. You know, I don't miss the 90 sevens back
to school. Do you remember what you're into school? Was it good for law? It was 97 is like yeah, three off the best in the fucking Yeah, exactly.
What did I say instead? Because you grew up in SMU I
was called the TA
TA and what did you What is it? Hundred
out of? Nine? 9.95? Yeah, so it's 5.5. And so what did you What did you get? I feel we I'm 34 years old. I was half my
my I only talk about my child. honestly want to know.
Yes. I honestly wanted okay. 99.15. All right. But David a little smile. As I said, I feel like like I remember like calculating my grades online and being like,
how did you do it? Like, were you just a little Johnny was? Okay, yeah,
I didn't talk the state, but I
got 100% in the exam. And so because in Victoria, you have to do all these specific, like, you have to do math, and you have to dive quite fine with x. I was never really a big fan. I enjoy the sort of sense of math and science, but the actual, like, sit down and not out some fraction. What does it sense? What does that mean? Like, I love the way it all fits together in the theories in the like, I love reading about it, you know, but I don't actually like sitting down and doing equations try. So I got to the end of year 11. And yeah, you're right, you have to do a maths and science and the humanities, at least one of each. Basically, that's why all the kids do that chemistry, physics and stuff like that also do literature or, you know, I was on the opposite side of the thing. So I basically I don't like rules. If someone puts a rules in front of me, I go, how can I tinker with this rule? And I said, I don't want to do any math or science. And then you've got it. And I'm like, but I'm not going to know like, Okay. And I sat down and they were like, Look, what you could do is you do all the subjects you want to do, which was French politics, literature, drama and ancient history.
Was that French politics or French? Come on? Come on. Yeah. French politics is a
fascinating at the moment. I got to vote in the election the other day, really French citizen. It's really fascinating stuff. So it really Yep, drama, French politics, literature, ancient history, right. That was my sort of that was my dream lineup. And now, okay, cool. So what you could do is do that. And at the end of the year, just sit the math exam. And that would count, dude, like the lowest level math 48. And that would count as 100% of you. There was no coursework in that year beyond that, okay. And that's what I was going to do. But then they timetabled ancient history and French at the same time, and I didn't choose I chose French and then I decided, well, I've got to do an extra subject now. So I just picked up math
because I was literally going to ask you a bunch about ancient history. Just um, yeah,
I it's a real I sometimes I get so frustrated that I you know, I can't name all the, you know, Emperor's of Rome or
Yeah, the kids that you spoke to about the podcasting. What do you think it's a nice? Oh,
yes. Cool. Yeah. What do you thinking about? What what's the
turns out, there was no joy in that. And
it's a dead end, turn around,
go back? Well, I think about
so I'm the opposite. I didn't think anything about anything to do with my schoolwork. And it sounds really enjoyed working out. Okay, if I do this, it means this is what you need to do if you get 97 or 99. The kids that you're speaking to at that time, what what's the vibe from the
vape? calculate so that the exact you know, I know, I know they have. Yeah,
No, this is the thing though. Like because my brother did voc which is similar. I did vape hell, dude. I guy. Yeah. He's Dude, that's the exact point is you do give up.
Right? I think the issue with vape cow is it's like, are you going to do something with your hands? You gotta do you gotta be fucking labor. Or rather than thinking about it more broadly, which is like, you could actually be a filmmaker doing like,
a really nice life like being someone in the middle like these days, everyone. Creamy middle. Yeah, like think of an Oreo. Live in in the
middle of it, by the way. Yeah,
I have heard that. Yeah. I'm still make you fat as fuck yeah. If you eat too many. Yeah.
How many? minute Let's find out. So, yeah, it's like these people to all because you're not going to be a neurosurgeon, then you're gonna have to, you know, be the scum of society. It's like, oh, like all you know, putting all this hope you could get a billion Instagram followers like, yeah, who cares? Lot? Sorry? Everyone on Instagram.
And what do we I was gone down to three. Okay?
If we ever get below five, just say I can't say the number, right.
We will talk after the show. They say how do you
spell the show? So does your Does your mom work with the cow? No, no, my mom's in Perth. She does?
You six. Okay. Yeah.
And so the V Cal stuff that you've been doing that separate is just
three majors. And
you're gonna say nicely?
No, it's the opposite is the opposite of hustling. It's just three may having a podcast and getting that data but dot com. You can go in the younger forms where it's like putting your name in your email, and it just comes off my inbox. Yeah.
So what do you think these kids what's, what's the hope for them? What are they? What are they getting out of? I
think they've just been told that they don't fit into the society's definition of success, where people go and especially at school, like, I mean, I know, I was just, if I'd gotten below 99, I would have been like, I seriously would have been like, how, how did this happen? And the fact that now I'm out in the real world, and it's almost embarrassing to have gotten something that high like people go on 95 That's amazing. And I go, holy shit. I hope no one finds out. Like No, I had a friend who went and studied at Oxford. And then when he came back to Australia, like and was looking for a job people like, maybe like, just play that down on your resume a bit. Really? People will think oh, he went to Oxford. We don't want to hire him. He's too
high for loot. Where does the credit line now? How do you mean?
So we're how you seen as you know, so what one once upon a time, your you know, was have a lot of worth on resumes and shit like that. Even put it on my Irishman. Yeah, but I'm saying Now where does it like? What like, where does people's worth? Is it an Instagram followers? You know, social fucking crazy.
I think if I were to say what's important right now, I would say a sense of human contact and community and being able to actually talk and engage and think and i think that critical thinking, and it's a nice little time of creativity, things like that, where it's like that. Because the other thing is right is look at all these jobs to being replaced by machines and stuff like that, like God, I've never saw people gone and doing trades, like, Well, you could be replaced by some robot in 15 years. Right. And these kids are 15. Now, yeah, so I think Yeah, I would say what is super valuable? Yeah, just, you know, in the moment, person to person, and critical thinking, and just yeah, that sort of stuff. I just real. It almost it's not tangible, because I'm brick lying is tangible. Yeah. But it feels to me it's like proper, like mental, tangible self
awareness. It's, it's the elements that are going to actually, when the computers are doing shit, and you have to have conversations with people to make stuff happen.
I just want you guys to do anything. So it was saying like, the superpower of the future is creativity, because machines can be creative. And there are so many jobs that we replaced by machines, but creative jobs white, right, and we probably applaud that, because we are all kind of in that sort of arena. Yeah. But this is my dystopian prediction is that those skills won't be important, because the market won't care about creative products, no one will care, they will go I am perfectly happy with that completely predictable, exactly like what I've had before just chillin it out, I don't care, I will click like on it, and anything creative will fade away,
I think that you've got to make a distinction between audience and what people want versus what technology will provide. So I think tech technology is going to make it easier to make, you know, to give repetition and to give you the same thing over and over again. And I think we're already seeing that artistry, things that are handcrafted imperfections, having a knife maker make a knife versus having something made, you know, in these sort of scale manufacturing thing. Those things that are unique I think will end up having more value. So yes, but like do a bit of a sample like go to all your friends kitchens, see what they've got in their knife block if probably just got the generic knives Bolinas, yet from wherever, I think it's based on status as well too, right. So if if we think of life is a bit like thinking about into schools, and what something all of these things are ways of showing status, financial, you know, how much money you have. That's another way of
saying this is now this is why you end up with this stratification. So it's not about the 1%. It's about the top 10%. And there, you know, you're the lawyers and the doctors and all this sort of stuff, right? Because the gulf between them, and everyone else is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then everyone else is getting clumped down the other side, in this bizarre world where you have to, you know, ride a bike with full of hamburgers to people's houses on their demand. Like that's,
that's the city that becomes if that becomes universal, if everyone has access to those things, then that can no longer be a thing of status. And yeah, and that's and that's why like, it feels like the you know, that 10% or whatever the thing that handcrafted nine, yes. But I think that not only that, but I think that the awesome why it's awesome for society is the things like hang crafted knives in the artistry and what sort of thing can actually blade down I believe to the other levels, because it's not financial, like sound like Reagan feels like there is it feels like there is the sum of these things. So stuff. So for instance, if if connectedness becomes the norm, then the world is going to be seeking more disconnectedness in regards to from technology. So being able to go out into the bush, even some people can't have that. Because like, so for example, they're being able to disconnect the the status symbol as well. Because most people,
like they have to be always Uber driver, you
have to be connected. You're an office worker, like you can't just go home doing no email this work. And that's what and that's why I mean, I think that's a status symbol. So in some regards, there are, the weirdness of it is that homelessness and all those sort of sorts of things, those people are actually doing some of the things that rich people going to be seeking, which is what does sleeping in a bed roll under detachment, like the so that that then becomes nervous
about saying that the homeless there is luckiest
right now what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that the some of the the values or the things that come out of not having much, it's like we've got the minimalism movement, all of these things, which are actually, people think, seeking simplicity. So choosing it,
they're not having it forced upon them. Like
I met a guy on the weekend, who has a successful business selling paper, handmade paper. Cool. It's awesome. He's just opened another shop. And I was thinking more of these businesses, more of these ventures that people, you know, sort of the past, I'll go down to create something like this, because they love what they do. And they'll find a little market to make money from it, which is the juggernaut businesses like Amazon, which is taking over the world, it's like, there will be a few of these juggernaut businesses.
Americans think Amazon is a force for good in the world.
Hmm. I think I think Yeah, but I think like us. Yeah, I don't think that all these things are that black and white. I think that like these things that could be us saying new part of I think that's part of the even like, I was listening to the conversation around Jordan Peterson and all that sort of thing. And I think that I'm not I'm not very sort of, I have a very strong political view, I don't think intentionally do exactly. So I think that that's the thing is like, I've never, I never knew about like, it's only in the last three or four years. Like a fact there's like left leaning media, and there's right leaning media. And I think that what can sometimes happen is that based on ideologies, or I need it based on my beliefs, I should believe that x y&z is good. x y&z it is bad. And I think that, like the interesting thing that I'm finding is like, Are there are, there are places for different things you can consume Jordan Peterson, or you can consume different types of content. But that doesn't mean that you're a misogynist, or that you're right leaning or you're this or that. And I guess that's part of the distinction between not being black and white on things is, it's like, I'm talking based on the very little knowledge that I have in the world. But what I'm trying to do is think about it from my perspective, yeah. Based on that it's not always conducive to left or right. So some things I might say where it's like, I don't think we should be getting so much stuff from China. You could say, okay, that's a natural, nationalistic, it could be, it could be there is that level of like, is it racist? And don't take things from other countries or do all that sort of thing. But that's the interesting thing. Right. But there's also the other element, which is like, some supporting local business shut down mass. And here I am. Why do you think they have to be the set? Yeah, because there's, yeah, there are those extremes? Right. And so I think that that's the interesting thing about all these conversations is you, I would like to think that we can have a little bit of here have a little bit of there. Without,
it's very important to get out of your bubble. Right. So and that works both ways. Yeah. So I try and read, you know, let's say, what's a book I've read recently, home fires. And then I might read, which is by you know, I'm pretty sure Pakistani author, spout. I don't want to give too much away, but not a lot radicalization or stuff like that. And then like I, you know, we'll go Okay, what's this Jordan Peterson abandoned trying read that book? Because it's important to, you know, try and get a nice wide survey of what's going what's going on. I think the second you feel like you've got a sense of what's going on, that's when you've probably lost your sense
of what's going on. And that's what I think's interesting is like, but it's reading those books with an open mind verse. I guess, part of the risk is you read all these books for the land. Yes, I have. I have a preconceived idea of what this thing is. Be I think it's I think it's interesting, because I think that, like, what I find really interesting about you is you do have you are vocal in regards to like, political stuff, and one so thing, whereas I guess I'm
done. I feel like I'm pretty quiet, actually. Yeah, I like talking about it. But I'm not an activist. Yeah. And there have been times where I'm like, I've got 10,000 followers on social media. Why, like, even, like, member the plebiscite for marriage equality, I put up a post of, you know, I'm a posting away my, my vote and I stuck some rainbows on it and was like, you know, I want to do a put a caption saying, what, 10,000 followers, a lot of you, vast majority of which come from outside my social circle, you're probably like this, probably statistically, there's some of you who are going to vote against marriage equality. And I just want to give a couple of reasons why, hopefully, that's something you can and I gave a couple of reasons. It's, I mean, hopefully you can think about, and I posted it, and then I got, like, so many more likes, and anything else I'd posted and I just felt a bit like, almost like, it kind of made me feel like it was token or something. I don't know. It's, it's hard to tell like it's like, if you're gonna do it, do it but don't do it like once every three years. And you know, I get to be an outlier. And and yeah,
post about these things.
I don't I can't tell to be honest. Yeah. All like Australia Day, I went on the the, the monstrous city and I was Instagram doing all the signs are up. And, you know, and yeah, I think stories is a little different Instagram Stories good. Because they don't like,
What's there? Yeah,
you know, yeah. People who are virtue signaling, not saying you were but
it's easy to say all that person virtue signaling, but they probably just thinking I believe in this. I'm going to post this. Yeah, I think it's when you have the thought in your mind of this will get the likes, which you didn't. But
yeah, April, I was the opposite. I was like, I know this is going to get me likes. But I want to do it. Despite that. Yeah. Because I yeah, I mean, social media locks are very bad. Why is a measure anything? Right? blocks a low hanging fruit? Yeah. Um, if you want to get likes, it's very easy to start stealing content from people and posting it eventually you'll get likes, right. So. So how many how many people are watching right now? For?
What did I say?
many people watching it? How many people watching at the moment?
That's fun. That's fun.
Because the thing is, like you brought up Trump earlier, and I think that it's one of those things where it's added to it kind of podcast I mentioned. You know, I haven't I think that I've probably, like we would have mentioned Donald Trump early on in our podcast is like very sort of whose it was it was talking about? Yeah. But um, I worried the by talking about it or whatever. It's disconnected. Like, I think I like to talk about the, the thoughts or the ideas or the you know, there's that fucking quiet. It's like, people speak about like, it's like a, I can't remember the exact quote, but it's like that thing of smart people talk about ideas over like talking about people. It's basically if someone's, if there's a breakup with their friendship, they post this on Instagram, it's like the common common thing. But my point being that it's like, by talking about it in the way of Donald Trump, were suddenly detaching the actual issues, because people are so triggered when you talk about those sorts of things. So triggered by that rather than all of the
explicit there otherwise, to help out as well. Like, for example, I'm having a meaningful conversation with a friend who lives in a, like,
less progressive electorate.
You know, at work being like, I'll sign out of this opportunity and put forward a woman that I know who would do just as well, well, things like that. Just like as opposed to, I'm going to tweet really angrily every day about, you know, whatever my mission is, or just do tiny little things in the background and
make things better. Like I really when I started my podcast, I made sure the first 10 episodes, none of the guests were straight white dude. Because I mean, look, here we are. A lot of podcasts are just straight white dudes talking. Really?
Funny, jack. Sorry, I
swear, you mentioned that.
Okay, wow. You must be really bad at picking up.
But yeah, so I have that thing where I'm like, Okay, how can I just do a little wider a dress, and the balance is gone skew if now just because of the guests that I managed to get while I was. People were in town and blah, blah. But you know, it's just little things like that. And I wasn't like, Hey, guys, here's my noble quest. Yeah, I'm going to change everything about my podcast, and not that I just did it. Yeah,
I felt good. Did you find when you were in commercial radio, did you feel sort of disenfranchised by the sort of the bigger media machine I didn't even think about like, with na, na, na na show was great. We were really good. I remember, we remember, like, I was the last time you did primetime shows. 2015. Right. So that was pre Trump. Yeah.
Like it was towards the end of that year when he nominated. So I feel like we got out at the best. Yeah, right.
Your show would have done much in that arena? Because I guess I have to tell
ya, the show maybe even more. Yeah,
Dr. Breakfast Show would be more like, oh, how funny. Is Trump going going and trying to be a bit like, we know racism is bad, right? Yeah, cool. But, like, I remember one of the big ones, one of the big ones, the two that were really big around that time. One was marriage equality. And we did a lot of work with that. And I remember I there was a guy who said he would divorce his partner, his wife, if marriage equality was legalized, I'm gonna show and, you know, I just went off at him. And that was a really like, emotionally charged moment. And I was like, you know that there are these kids out there who are literally killing themselves, because you say things like this, that you like, that kind of thing. That was intense. And then the other one was, I think that transgender rights were being put on the sort of right off. A lot of people is the first time they're learning about it. And that was because of Caitlyn Jenner. And we had a lot of talk about that on the show. We had, um, I forget her name, but some, she was a transgender activist, and she would come on the show, and we could just ask her anything, it was kinda like, you know, that show? It's on ABC. That's it, it was kind of like that. She could just answer anything it was. So it was so great to have this moment being like, what if someone calls you by your old name? Because that's super offensive? Like, is that like saying the N word? Like, what's going on? Or is it just like if you know, someone gets married, and they change their surname? And then you call them that? Like, is it what's the like, all these are things fine. And that was really cool to kind of we did that segment. Like, basically, she was super stoked to do this. And it was always in the news. So like, right, let's, um, you know, do that as much as possible. That was really cool, too. But, you know, you talk about the media machine. We had a meeting once with my boss, and he sat us down me and mass, and he went, what's going on? Well, I want you guys. Why the hell have you guys not spoken about Adam goods on the show? He's like, you're the Sydney Breakfast Show. He's a Sydney football player. It is the number one news story in the country. Why aren't you speaking about it? And we were like, odd and I mean, I don't know much about football. like back then. I didn't know anything about AFL CIO. I don't know much about football. And, you know, I'm not indigenous and, and he's like, so what? Like, he's like, he goes, You guys need to talk about this. He's like, contract yet. I'm gonna talk about it. It's meant for I'm gonna talk about it. It's too crazy for them. Yeah, you guys all it to them it to get in here. And even if it's just getting on air and saying, Hey, are you confused by all this? I don't really know what to do blah, blah, like, and and get someone on?
Do you think that was your positioning based on the work that you've done with the same sex staff and sort of the transgender work? Do you think that?
I don't think it was? I think it was just like, this is the kind of stuff that shows Yeah, cuz that's what I'm
curious about is like, say, for instance, like Fox News, like obvious, right? Like they talk about, you know, being right wing or whatever. Yeah.
One thing that I find hard to understand is what we're talking about Lyft media or whatever that is, what is your perspective on media's responsibility leanings and say, those types of conversation? I mean,
me, media is a, like a media company, is owned by a person, right? media isn't some benevolent public good. Media is where someone with a lot of money has decided to monopolize communication in order to push their words out to people louder than everyone else's. That is what a media channel is. I mean, it's a very, it's kind of like you guys asked what I do on my podcast, media company. So you guys, I mean, it's in the name. Yeah.
I thought it was out there. Yeah, we've got multiple brands and the big man. Yes.
Umbrella Corporation, it's a real portfolio of assets.
Do you feel that that? You know, when something
public is a publicly listed company? So based on that, like, how does how do all these things? I'm talking about this, because I
just chases the dollar.
But that's why no one is being left? Is there more money in the left versus the right?
I think Fox News seems to be doing wrong. Yeah,
I guess that's pot, but maybe there's something in extreme, like,
a natural lane for most media outlets to to being left being progressive.
But if you're on MTV, I guess it is more likely to if you're watching MTV, the types of people who are in that company or in that brand, are going to be young people who are potentially
aggressive demographic. Yeah. But um, yeah, I just think
people do what they want to do, like, because that's what I thought. But based on that, but that then doesn't play into the narrative that fox news produces right wing content, but then people who work there
want that content. Yeah.
So do you think that that's a hiring thing? Do you think that by now you said it's like, yeah,
we know what a dolly isn't going to put his resume in at Fox News? Yeah. You know what I mean? That's just but you know, someone you know, Sean Hannity, or someone I don't know who's on Fox News. But line, they would want to work there. Yeah.
It's interesting. I look at like the project. And I think like, it's an example of a show that tries to do big meaty issues, but then also does the comedy sort of stuff. And it's sometimes Bry eyes, my girlfriend gets annoyed at me because I, whenever something I find uncomfortable happens on TV is straightaway switch. And it's normally she loves watching the project, but I tend I I get close to pressing that button. Whenever I'm saying like a transit, like an awkward transition, or whatever. Did you find talking about the big issues and also having fun those transitional points hard? Or I guess with him radio, you've got Well, I mean, talk breaks, and you can sweat it if you're good at it. Like,
I'm not saying I'm a superhero, but like we do. It's been like 10 years working out, like how we do those sorts of things. And it is super tough. Like I remember, shootings. When everyone's talking about sun these days, people don't really talk about shootings in America, because they happen so much. But five years ago, if there was a school shooting, it was like, Oh, my Lord, what do we do we change the whole show. But another example is like, you know, Robin Williams dying. Like, I remember that, like, we were doing drive time, and we're like, oh, like he
can't get on air and just, you know,
Well, now, let's just do our normal idiocy. Yeah. Right. So we can't get on air and just be like,
pretending like there wasn't not this
monetize ghost shaped like the genie from Aladdin. Just in the road? What the fuck you guys? Yeah. Hey, guys. But um,
so can you be based on majority of the people? Nothing
you did about it.
But like I say, majority of
our audience grew up with that guy. Yeah. So but I mean, yeah, yeah,
it's a it's a decision to make, whether it's the thing you lead with, or the thing that you don't you
just approach it. And it's like, if you feeling
like it's a personal decision. So for you, that was a personal feeling, which were in result of the
programming decision whether to put it on or not. Yeah.
And so did you feel as talent, as I call it? You don't have to put that in a quiet so I think because I think it's I think understates as a
if you will. I think the thing with talent, which I don't like is it may be sort of it feels very one dimensional. Did you feel that you're making those program decisions? Yeah, Yeah,
I did. A lot of people have all these stories about all media and you know, you'll just be a porn and they'll change who you are, and all this sort of stuff. But honest, I don't know if I had a charmed run. On the hall. I mean, there's some things around like, Oh, my God, I can't believe we did that. But um, yeah, generally, like working with NAS, and having the bosses would be we will lock your hands right now shy? I never really had that moment where like, occasionally have, it'll be a bit of like, wouldn't it be great if you thought the opposite about this issue? would be like, but we agree. Yeah, we'll be able to figure out a way to make it more interesting. It is
it is a good thing about radio. I mean, other than I remember being suggested, you should talk about this is just happen. You know, somehow bring it up and have to bring some personal story about us. Yeah,
all I actually have you say this is what's good. It's always right. When people two people think differently, but man as as well, very sympathetic people. Like we like to figure out what the other person is about and get on board with it. So when we we would often disagree and be like, but we'd be trying to find each other's point of view. And we'd actually end up switching Yeah. I mean, I think I tried to make everything might be good, right? Oh, yeah. It's like a puzzle. You gotta figure out how to make it good radio. But I think like, I think there's well, listeners have learned to see through that bullshit. And it's like I look at I don't know if you saw so Richmond played Adelaide. And Eddie bets star of the game kicked an amazing goal. And Sydney stack first year player for Richmond. who'd been playing on at bit Did you say
that you didn't know anything about football? Because this is the most football thing? Yeah, I
know. I didn't know anything about that season. I'm Sydney stacks in the stack. So I started going I fell in 2016. Yeah, really? I guess and now I'm so across it. So any bet style game kicks this call Sydney stack young defender playing on him old game he's being like, Eddie, I'm not gonna let you kick a goal. And he's like, Oh, I'm gonna get one. And sure enough, Eddie Golan and all the ad like crowdsale got around him that well done. And then Sydney stack just comes up as a high five hug. And Eddie looks a lot. Yeah, it's all jet. Like his beautiful moment. Right? And everyone in the game is gone. How good is that? Right, the two indigenous dudes to as well and like, it's just such a great story. And of course, Gary lines on the footy show, whatever his show is, just guys are you know, it's not bloody on is it? If you want to cuddle with someone from the opposition, and everyone I've read was just like, night. Like, you don't need to create these fake drama. Like no one like it. But you can tell a lot. Well, someone on the panel has to bring a spice, you know, kind of vibe. People can spot it. Yeah.
Because if he? I mean, he probably couldn't give a fuck about that. Yeah,
I don't think so. Yeah.
Well, I guess I think that is probably it's an interesting time to have an opinion. Right, where
he hasn't been like a bold campaigner for like battle lines being drawn, you know? So yeah, I think, yeah, people, the point I'm making is that people can spot when something is confected when something's being done on purpose, when the passion isn't in it, so when Matt and I were on air, we'd always make sure that we could find that passion point. And if we couldn't get someone on who could.
The V Cal kids are probably saying through everything. This is what I mean, a lot of kids don't listen to radio.
Because I think that that was one of the toughest things about, you know, presenting to these kids and trying to stoke their fire about podcasting. Is that, like, the vast majority of them, like, whatever, what do they do?
What you do?
Pretty much Yeah, and even Christ in the podcast? No, I mean, as in while I was up talking to sitting in their chairs, just watching YouTube. Yeah. It's crazy. And like, I'm I mean, I'm, you know, I've been on stage before I can sort of work a tough room, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I'll be kind of like, Hey, man, check this guy out. But you know, like, kind of
lightly make them a bit just said, I realized this guy's All right. But um, yeah, that's, yeah, that's it.
He kind of, you know, if you get out it, like, someone came up to me afterwards and asked me this, like, really nice question. And all we got was the question,
what's your, what's your
thought was, as I was talking about, like, the idea of
sneaking up on your future, rather than like chasing after it. And so she was like, what does that mean?
What does it mean? Well, think about it, right? Like, everyone looks at their goals now. Like, I'm
going to get that. Like that.
Whereas instead, you should be like, that is something I would like to do one day. I wonder, oh, I can catch it. And so I like instead of being like, you know, let's say you want to do a radio show. Instead of being like, I need to have a radio show by the end of this month. Awesome. A failure. And I'm going to do this just got started podcast. Yeah. And I might start to meet a few people who work in radio, and I might just put my podcast up on social media and maybe people were interact with it. And I'm, I try and contact some of those writing people and see if they want to be guests. And just slowly like, kind of, what do you what is your future? What do you think about people who want a career?
They think they want a career in broadcasting, meaning? radio? What what's your take on someone 17 year old kid in that audience says, I want to I want to do radio and what? Moving forward understanding automation, understanding creativity, what do you think from being in the trenches? Yeah, just say why?
That doesn't sound that sounds really bad. Why do you want that? But why genuinely? What do you what draws you to that? Um, I just think, like, I know, from personal experience, I've had a lot of success with radio, but nothing I could depend on it. If I wanted to, I could, I could go and get a job. You know? I would like Shepperton or something. Yeah, like something like that. I could probably end I could probably stay employed in radio for a long time. reckon there is there's things out there that can scratch the same age that aren't the same thing? So and that's,
but also like, I don't know, maybe you just love microphones and panels? Yeah,
I think there. Is there an implied like, if you are into radio, and you want to pursue radio, do you think there's a distinction between that and podcasting people who want that, versus one want to start a podcast?
I recognized both come from a similar place. I think, like, I mean, there's definitely differences in the form. Yeah.
This would be a terrible radio show. Yeah. Music isn't on podcast. Is it exactly like a song?
Do you have involvement in when you're on radio anyway, if you see the heartbeat from the jump, say, if you go I want to be in radio and I get the job. So if I go, the goal is to be on radio. But then I say that I look towards the future and go the future reasons.
That it depends. It depends if you like music, or if you like,
the music that you like, so if you love the music industry, yeah. And if you love the concepts of festivals and charts and bands and the media machine around it and all that sort of stuff, which is exciting, then great. But if you like only like the Arctic Monkeys
Yeah, then you probably won't do too well in right or maybe you could get a community show like we we bumped into one of Tommy's friends the other other day. She's been doing a community show for like over 10 years. And she was you know, imply the music Yeah, your music director and all that sort of thing. Yeah, well I guess a different
loud you know, Island that's like a Triple J show about punk rock. I think Yeah, I had that might not even be on air anymore. I'm not even my my youth. Yeah,
hearing people's goals, young people or anyone for that matter is like when you have an idea, a thinking around what that goal actually means. vs. If they get halfway to it, and they realize there's no life in radio for me. But I have time in it. Yeah, that's why it's very hard giving advice. How did you think about going into those v cow kids and what you're going to talk to them about? Like
the main thing I wanted those kids to feel was like, you know, he said like about giving up like that. That's not your only option. Because Yeah, I thought I thought a lot about my brother basically. Because Yeah, he did Valcke, which is the similar thing input and I just thought about how he felt at the time and I thought about like, how happy he is now. I'm like, he's 31 he's just done his apprenticeship like human ever sees you'd personal training. He played rugby in, in France, like you need all this crazy stuff. And now he's, you know, he's got his house in the country, but not in the suburbs. Like Healesville and his house got lovely kids got his job, like his family, Mike. You know, he, he's found something right. You know, he had to find that. And I remember like, you know, he's rugby coach, for example, somebody really brought something out of me back in the day now. Tom's a great rugby coach. Now, he coaches the local team. And so I think, yeah, you need that person to kind of break through all the year 12 year 10, whatever bullshit, which is telling you like, or if you don't get number one in your to you, you're a loser. And it's like, what's not? Yeah. Like, I always think like, I love this quiz show called University Challenge. And it's this British quiz show, and it is the most British University thing you've ever seen, like, honestly, watch an episode. What is it? Where is it? It's on YouTube. They're all on YouTube. Yeah, it's like BBC, but the BBC lets people upload it to YouTube. And there's just these people kids are just so intensely smart about everything, right? Like, you play a random plays a piece of classical music and like, WC, or like, you know, like, they know like, all like everything about human biologist and everything about physics and everything about literature. They know everything about fine art, like all this stuff, right? But
none of them if you go back 30 years, none of them go on to be I don't know, let's say
Prime Minister, or heads of major corporations or whatever right.
Now them like, they've just gone to be like, ivory tower academics order, or they're playing a game
they think yes or no, you know, and do you mean, what do you think that you're good at? And what do you so glad you asked that? What do you think you're good at? And then what do you wish that you were good at? What do you sort of seek? Do you think what do you constantly like? Because I I feel like I spent a lot of time focusing on I need to improve this. I need to do this for me. It's a lot around food. What do you mean? Well, food like it for me? It's always been making the struggle of like,
maybe more you want to master some fancy recipes. Is that
just cooking and eating disorder? Yeah, exactly. Eating Disorders. But yes, a bit. So for me a lot of my life, even though I'm building all this sort of stuff. It's constantly like, you know, Sundays are always like, last day of eating bad. Mondays are the worst days based on you feel a bit shit from all the stuff you
did yesterday? Yes. Okay.
So what happened yesterday, just just on the weekend, he thought
he wasn't gonna be able to April wins on it Batman
naturally go through the list. All by that was the top of the list. It goes deep.
It was a few things. Anyway, what is it for you? What do you what do you think that you're good at? And what is the thing that you're constantly seeking? Yeah,
it's really interesting, because I have this theory that strengths and weaknesses can actually be tied together kinda like, you can't have one without the other. So I remember once I do this exercise with some of my friends who were sort of working on a project together. And to make it a bit easier, we decided to write down like what our in one column our strengths and weaknesses, just so we could all be on the same page, you know, like kind of, you know, what we're excited about working on what we're looking to learn right from the outset of the project was kind of cool. And we all had this revelation after doing that, and sitting down and talking through them. And we were allowed to add to other people's columns as well. So it's actually know here's something you missed out or whatever, right? I'm getting a phone call. Yeah, it's fine.
It literally comes up on every single device device. It's a plus one number which is exciting. That's that's America. You can I'm not going to answer it. But also you can put your phone on silent. That's another little I think it was on silent on six of them but one of
and that a that by the way, that whole HTC
just quickly on the laptops whenever my phone rings. Yeah.
Oh, no, I haven't had that. Oh, if you've got any audio, it just starts playing and then you can't fuck it was it 97 has saved me work for
free guys take technically savvy is you Yeah,
it's anyway, so
I can show you some ways. You can draw a line between them and match them up Mila all that strength actually gives me that weakness and that weakness gives me that strength. And so the one I always come back to is I'm quite good in the moment. I'm quite good at just thinking quickly. I think of things like commercial radio and improv and saw that I'm, I'm good right at just, and I really worked hard on that. I mean, when I first started doing radio, I would listen to Hamish Danny podcast and back why I'm making jokes that quickly. enemies. You know, I've probably because Hamish bite was far better than me. And also, because, you know, they worked a lot harder on this show than I do on a conversation at the pub, you know. But even like, in Perth, I listened to Nathan and that the same thing why is quick is Nathan, and because that's where I was working. And I remember probably year by the stereo days national driving that going, getting there. Like I can reliably get super funny super quickly. Like, if someone comes in and they say something, I can get to a joke within three seconds, and make it a good one. And so I was like, that's a really cool talent. So I really got, but something on the flip side of that is, I like sitting at home with an empty piece of paper. And like creating something really big and awesome and substantial and useful. Wonderful, is really hard. And I've been doing a lot of work, any specific work to try and
get better at that solo work and that long length work. And,
and really, you know, trying to figure out how to do that like, and all sorts of things like I read this book called Deep work by county book. Yeah, I got 5050 some of it is a little bit, some of the band has taken and adopted my life. And I've highlighted it and I wrote on piece of papers I put on the wall. Other parts of it unlike you can tell us is written by a cobra. Yeah, you know, I saw was the bits. But there was some Beatles dislike about like how to optimize your life and like, say no to checking your emails and like all this stuff. And I'm like, man, come on, like, as if you can do that. When you first started an office, you know, he's very, he's ivory tower, and he's a programmer. Those are kind of two things are good. Going to see what thoughts you come up with. Because
Yeah, but it's the it's the aspirational stuff, too, I think right? Which is like it's like, okay, because young people hearing that might hear I've got to say No, I can't. Yeah. Which is not the right advice for someone who's just saying you need to say yes to everything. Yes. And that's Yeah. And he's made
guys who made it.
And so you focused in on trying to get better at that weakness. Yeah.
And I mean, I think if like something else specifically done right, is
some of the best work I've done has been when Internet has been absent. I think of I don't know if I told the story to you guys last time. But when I was writing the musical that I wrote last year, it the thing that the one that sold out, yeah, yeah. And then we added more shows and I saw a lot of the musical. Yep.
So they went to me.
Yes, he did. He kind of only night it was really funny. And then the, like, the reason that got started, like there were many things that got that started. But the first day where I really did some really good work on it was when my internet dropped out at home. And I said to sit down in my dining table, the big piece of paper and I wrote the core song of the shy. And I started from nothing with three brainstorms. I went through rhyming dictionaries, I got everything, I got it down. And I was just like, oh my god, I couldn't believe it. So now I'm just like, if I need to get some real solid work done, I literally like this is from county board, I literally write down the time when I'm allowed to look at my phone or computer again, finding one room computer in the other, just sit at a third place, the dining table,
blank pages of paper and a pen.
I just I think about weaknesses that I believe that I'm a cat. And sometimes I prove myself wrong. And then I'm like, but my belief is that it's a weakness doesn't
remember is that your strengths are the things that you are, let's say 150% 200% at whereas your weaknesses, the things that are 60% that it's not like your weight your strengths are what your 80% and your weaknesses. What is your isn't it?
But I think it's probably that that's all based on perspective. And the stories we tell right, because we're probably not as good as we think in certain ways. But in the same way, we're not as bad as we think. Which I think is the interesting bit to like you have moments where it
was Sean mccalla say the truth lies somewhere between two extremes. And how ironic that the truth be found lying somewhere.
I think it's like, yeah, there's a I didn't enjoy
everything that he does. No, I was just being bit Rococo.
Sorry. It's good to you gotta watch the video. If you say the gesture. Yeah. So what, what's on the horizon for you for the next, what's next?
What are you gonna do when your internet goes down? I've been I've been doing a course at awards School, which is a creativity, copywriting advertising kind of school. So that's been
monopolizing my time at the moment. How old school does that fit? Because I know, some friends have done it, too. It's one of those ones. It's a it's a discipline, it feels like it plays very well into that sort of like, focus eight
words. Yeah, hundred percent. Yeah. And it's also one of those ones where I love that metaphor that like, let's say, There's 100 different doors in your mind, and you've got a knock on the Mall. Yeah. Before you find that idea. You can't just like knock on three and go, Oh, yeah, there's a good enough idea. And they're going to knock on every door. And it just takes so long. And yeah, like, you can lose like, essentially for this course you do. By the end of it, you have a portfolio made 10 pieces of work across the sort of three months, like a lot of creatives or directors and big agencies and stuff have all come from That's correct. Yeah. And they do the lectures, and they also tutor you as well. So that's, that's been kind of monopolizing my time at the moment. Yeah. And that and my podcast, have been kind of like the two things that we're working on. I've been trying to, we've been applying for grants to get Tony gliding the musical up and running again, in looks like, I mean, I've done I'm not gonna pass any heights, talking about the future, until I know, and then being able to like, announce it really happily. But we're trying to gauge the demand in regional centers. And we've had reasonably good feedback from a few places
so much to be said in the regional market, like I've, yeah, I worked for a company instinct entertainment, and I did strange bedfellows, and which I did a musical and they did it in Obree. And these like hubs where you can get sellout crowds are huge. And the
show is about a West Australian farmer. So I like if we took it to these places, like that would be a really cool thing to do. That's a bit far off, though. That takes a lot of that. Yeah.
Is the is the grant stuff. Does it feel obviously feels worth it based on doing it. But I was even looking on the watching a documentary on the weekend and saw at the end, sort of, there was a low budget feature film grant or whatever. And I just googled it. And then was reading up about this distribution grand what's your experience pain in getting grants? What's
the process? It is?
It's tough. It's just about when people are good at it. There are people out there who are very good at it. And they like, who you're talking like, do you have writers? Yeah, I'm gonna go
to a grant writer. Well, yeah,
title, but yeah, so we've worked with a producing team to sort of, but also like, so my, my girlfriend, Sonia was the producer of the original show, and I was the writer and both of us. We don't want to spend more of our workouts. Yeah, like writing more stuff about this show. Like it's been so like, we want to work on it again. But there are people in Perth who would be willing to produce that. Cool. Alright, great. Well, let's form a super team then. Yeah, and we're happy to you know, essentially, give these people that opportunity and overly that money. So yeah, it's interesting. Um, but yeah, I'd really love to see that up again. I guess Pretty soon, it's time to put in applications for the next Perth fringe. And hopefully have us back because like I said, we sold out multiple shows. So there's a market for it. Yeah. And a lot of people missed
out. You've been dabbling in agency stuff for like,
a little bit a little bit. Yeah. Um, but that's more like, at the moment, that's more like freelance kind of, you know, you know, you like you got to pay your rent. So you find that freelance work. And it'll be interesting. I've really doing this award school thing has really made me excited about it. I'm also excited about the idea of having access to some really good clients. I feel like I'm freelance work. You are always. Yeah, it's like, if something really who comes in the agency again ago, well, we'll do this. But now we don't have the resources are well, all the stuff. We don't want to do that to the freelancer and then you just do it from your home in the laptop, and I go, thanks. And the money arrives in your bank account. Yeah. And I would like to get back to that commercial radio vibe, where you get really big clients wanting to do really interesting stuff. And they've come to us, right? Yeah. And I think that that's kind of what I like. But the other perk of the agency existence would be that it wouldn't rely on my personality or my sort of, you know,
me as a human and dude, yeah, be more about the work.
He's done the hard work and getting the client so then it's
that easy. And that was really good about commercial radio as well, right. I didn't have to go in and I ended and knock on the door and go, Hey, do you want to be on my podcast? But they would be like, Oh, I want to be on the show.
there's a there's a there's a trend I think of radio people doing I think they might be right agency people. Sam calve? Yes exam Yeah. Even Corey life and that's where he's back. Now. He's
But yeah, yeah. And I have a real another one who in a personal were to be within a little bit about his wife Kingsley as well. Yeah, I think I'm, I've a real soft spot for people who do well in radio, and then go cool. What else is out there? Because that's inspiring to me as someone who had a great moment in radio that didn't quite have the longevity I was after. And now I'm like, cool. What else is out there? But it's I don't know
anything? Yeah. Would you ever go client side? Could you imagine being sort of in house? Like I'm wonder in house creative kind of within like a talk? Maybe. But I think I think I'd prefer to like that. I could see that in the diversity and age. There's something I mean, agency people work so fucking hard. That's one thing like every day
Hi, was that I, I have been living my exciting freelance life for about three years now. And I don't know I like anyone who's worked on a big time commercial, radio, TV live production knows how hard you work and you but the reward is great to it. So I've been I've been haven't had that in a while. So I'll be more than happy to spend a fair amount of time just working with some super smart people on some super cool stuff. Yeah,
well, it's a different mindset, right? The freelance lifestyle, if you increase your output, you can increase your revenue, whereas when you internally, you increase your output, you just getting the same amount of money,
so much Your time is spent on trying to find work
on billable hours. Yeah.
And it just really annoys me, like you have so many coffees and all this other stuff. And you might get what, like a, you know, a day's worth of work or something. And it's not really super awesome work, I want the the level of thrill of that I had with the musical. But with the level of like, client that, you know, you can only like, okay, I'll write something for, you know, Commonwealth Bank or something. And I end up writing these little, you know, eight second bumpers or whatever, right? And it's like, okay, I want to be doing musical level stuff at that level. Yeah.
You know, that's all Yeah, you're doing the tactical execution. This is and the strategies already backed in with this? Oh, yeah. Yeah, understanding something. Yeah. I think the client side, like what TJ and I have sort of developed over time is the power of directly working with clients. Just even, I guess, within that agency stuff, it does feel like if we're thinking about audience, and we're thinking about what do they want, it's sometimes very hard to distinguish between, you could do, we could do five edits of a video for an agency, that's for a client, today, client, but they won't show any of those five minutes, and then they'll show it to the client. And so all of that friction, creative friction, the excitement in in developing is actually not
not helping to really build a fortress around your ideas, you know what I mean? Like, one of them is just don't work with agencies.
We've been lucky, I guess, until that's been part of the thing, which is like, if we can do direct to client, yeah,
that's how agencies work as well. And it's like, if you anytime you have a middleman like
business model is clashing with the freelancer saying, like,
it's great, just, you know, as a, like, a lifestyle in a moment in time. But, you know, is this what? This how you want to work for? Two decades? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think when everyone involved in an idea chain wants to know that a bit of the day demonizing that idea, like, I always got taught that, for example, if you are putting together like a grant for say, like a short film that you're talking about you 23 and may not like I mean, like you, you, you wouldn't present them like, here's the fully finished idea. All we need from you is the money. Yeah, you present them the outline and go, do you want to go on this journey? You know, people want to be invested in projects and stuff like that. It's always like, you know, you get that investor. And all they want to do is tinker with your product. Well embrace that.
Yes. They deserve to know Dan Ariely, the organizational psychologist, he's got the book predictably irrational. And he talks about the IKEA effect, which is people value things that they have hand in making. Yeah, exactly. And for us, like from a client point of view, that means that like, we show clients versions, so they can see it, they can see it, if they don't understand of this goes there. And this is why we've done that. There's no buying. And I guess that's the thing that we've learned from having the middleman is it's like, we might be on the same page from an agency site, like, you know, we're all across it. But then we haven't we haven't interface like this, the shorter we can make the gaps between when we create something, and feedback. That's where the magic is,
sometimes I'm doing this freelance stuff, I silo myself away so much to the point where I forget that I should be, you know, making a connection with the people who I'm working for and saying, Hey, what do you think like, I go, cool, I'll get it done. And then three hours that I go, there's the work done. Thank you. And that's and that's after that's playing the game. But but
but yeah, but it's just, I think that is the that is the unsexy or unexciting bit of this sort of remote work digital Freelancer is it's just like, you know, modeling, because you're monetizing, we're doing it, because whereas if you actually say, Hey, I'm applying my thought and communication and all that sort of thing into that, that becomes more than just like, You're acting like a machine at that point, which is
a shame once in a while off at CMC that, yeah, that whole idea of embrace the suck, where it's like, what's the kind of suffering, like, don't go like, I want to do that job, because the highs are so high. Instead, you go like, what are the lowest points of that job? Are they okay? Yeah. And I look at like, the lowest points of freelancing, and I go, I don't like that at all. Yeah, right. I don't like just messaging, lots of people saying, Hey, can I get some of your money, please? I don't like, you know, maintaining a website. I don't like, like, all the different stuff that gets in the way of actual work. Whereas I look at something like, I mean, I've never worked like full time in an agency, but I compare it a bit to the vibe of a radio station, admittedly, I know, like me, and my job was we had fantasy camp sort of job, right. But the organizational stuff. Yeah. The gets in the way of a lot of people in those companies like meetings and clients. And, um, you know, I know you have to do this, not what you want to and also stuff if they if that's the lowest point. I'm like, I can deal with that. Yeah, I kind of liked the business side of it all. I like meetings. Yeah. It's, it's I like having a boss. Yeah, yeah.
So I mean, the thing is, whether that's the is that leaning towards the future of work? I don't know. I think
the I think that the reason
nothing will ever replace the feel of a genuine Holton, Buggs?
Well, I guess that the thing is, there is something really nice about like, I was talking to a friend this morning about business travel. It's like, with Skype and zoom and all the ways that you can communicate now, getting on a plane makes less and less sense for say things. Yeah, but there is a romanticism 200% Yeah, in business class and going to America to seal the deal, man, when all this Alice would have been, I wouldn't have been How would I have been? I was about to get into radio would have been maybe like 2021. And I was living in Melbourne, but I was going for the job in Perth, which is my god, it was my first radio job. But I remember being going to the airport, and they're like, are you going to Perth and ice and they said business or pleasure? And I went? Yeah, yeah. And there is something I guess it is a these are all pacifiers and stuff that actually did it lead to great work and fulfillment and purpose and all that sort of thing. You know, I guess part of the thing is with when I worked as a digital content producer at the radio station, I think the thing that a lot of employees don't get, which I think is a missed opportunity is the connection between what what you're doing and the benefit that it's having. Having from a business perspective.
But also like, find where your mojo comes from that we're talking about how you guys have decked out this brand new studio, right? Like, I'm sorry, it probably cost you a lot of money. But like, hey, haters, like Don't you feel better? Yeah. Yeah. Like I was saying, like, people are like, all I need is a pen and a piece of paper. And I could create poetry. It's like, Yeah, but when I've got my really nice pin, yeah, and my really nice book, I just got ya doing it, doing it.
Most employees can do which is to work out if they actually want to be an employee. Because if there's some so you say, I want to I like actually like having a boss. Yeah. Like this is really empowering to go into those roles and fucking nail them. Yeah, yeah. versus what I was like, when I was working for someone just like this fact. Like,
that's probably why you're thriving in this environment.
And there's probably a lot of people who would actually who are more like you, who have been told the narrative that the future of works in light and fucking hating it. Yeah, they can't do sales.
My dream is to be a baby boomer. That is my dream.
always the sage in the 90s. Yeah, like imagine? Yeah.
Oh, had a chance to do a little do it all over again. What would you do? What career?
Oh, I think I nailed it. Honestly, I was going to be a lawyer, man. I didn't
do much on intellectual property. Yeah. Hey, cuz what I'm trying to work out is I just put in an application for the daily talk show. trademark. Yeah. I don't know. Like, we were on the fence of applying for it based on it feels like a common phrase. Yes. What do you reckon the likely
not a daily talk show? It's the daily talk show. And I think there's enough words in there. There's like three words, like give me this call it the show, you'd probably struggle. But I think that that those three words in that order of intellectual property, yeah. So much, because this is what it was all like, yeah, like, think of an exam where all you have to do is this.
One, what happens once we get a trademark?
We have to defend you have to and that's so I can fight more. So yeah, I got my tie skills
with your work.
I think that's the interesting thing about it. Because I was talking this morning to my mate about the fact that digg.com, which was a big sort of social bookmark site in the mid 2000s. The IWA? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And Kevin Rose, who founded that he got a bunch of shit from going after all these people because of trademark infringement. And he did a great job of explaining it's like, if he doesn't defend his trademark, then when they actually need Yeah, then if a competitor is dying to use it, they could say, hey, there's these three cases, which are which is it? Yeah.
What does it mean for in terms of the value the value? What is it? Why would we get a trademark?
Why would someone to say that no one else can use those words to describe?
They can't create a talk
that reckon you can ask that question yourself? Because think about it, right? Yeah. If you saw another podcast from say Canada, climbing up the climbing up the ranks cold the daily talk show? How would you feel? Yeah,
good on him?
Of course it be we created the ship first. Yeah.
And that part of it? Yeah,
I guess part of it is we have legal grounds to stand by then be able to say,
but there's also like, I don't know what it's like I would say it's been Australia is also passing off, which is called common law trademarks. So you generally said someone who's passing themselves off as your product. Yeah. And that is that exists outside of trademarks. Right? Because you can put the little tm without them being trademarked. Right. Yeah, that's that. Yeah. But hey, I don't know. Like they were talking about judge. Yeah, like,
all right. Come on. And I because I, I guess the interesting thing is, you can have a business name, company name, you can have the domain name actually doesn't make from an intellectual property point of view. That's why I think like, if we can get the daily talk show as a trademark, that means that we actually have equity, like then it actually becomes something at the top comedy, something Sure. The Instagram, all that sort of shit. But they're not really
well, I'll tell you a story. When I started out in radio, it was me and my friend, Matt, and both of us were law students we were studying during the day and the doing on an overnight show at night, right. And as you can tell, we studied intellectual property. This is the kind of stuff we're into. And so we were like, We want to own the trademark. But action battle team is the name of our show. And we did exactly what you're doing. We went and we made a trademark application. And when we were negotiating with Nova, we were like, well, you can do whatever you want. But we're going to own the rights in the name. And we were so excited about it. We thought it was so cool. And pretty much when we got promoted to our first big job, which was Adelaide breakfast after three months. So like, hey, it's just cold Matt data madness.
And we just put that piece of paper in a drawer never looked
sorry, it actually got it if we if we search for the last.
How did I actually Yeah, but to be honest, so my, I mean, there might be a little you know, we're talking about like, be your own boss. If we were our own boss, we wouldn't have had that taken away from us. But at the same time was like yet it felt like an old, old shy, you made a new name, magnanimous, so much better, but I'm made sense do it. And I'm not very, what's the word sentimental about that sort of stuff. It's business. Come on. I want to get to number one. But um, the, I think for you guys, I would say a little different. Because you said something you literally own 100% yourself, and no one's promoting it. So but what do you paint like 1000 bucks?
It was? How much is it already? $200 200. Plus, we paid the extra hundred and 30. So 330, which gives you an examiner? Yeah,
that might that would have felt that would have felt like 1000 bucks.
The students? Yes. And but it was good having that. We've gotten that extra layer. So they're actually come in and they'll say hi. Because you've got two classes. That's where it gets hot. so fucked up initially, when I was putting like going through the application initially, a few months ago, but we decided not to do it because I went down the rabbit hole. It's like, I think it's me too generic, blah, blah, blah. But then I'm like, fuck it. Let's just try it. But that's that's another one. I really love it. Law School. Yeah. Let's just try it. Yeah. The the distinguish between goods and services. So I was picking services like podcasting, production versus being podcast, which is interesting, because we're not going to be in the business. No one's going to use the daily talk show. As a brand to make podcast. Yeah, it's going to be the brand. Yeah. So that was interesting. But I only did like, three thing is like webcast downloadable podcast, but it's all in there. They say. I want to do streaming like I hopefully when we speak to the streaming, right, exactly.
So from the window, it actually looks like you put it away. Well, that's an Instagram actually has a ton load on the you're
worried about an hour and a half. Okay.
Well, yeah. Where did we peak? We definitely got 40. Kim, did you get to
50 in total?
There we go. So funny. Yeah.
We did go a bit longer. We thought we would. If someone's listening right now. Can I like tweet us and say, Well, I listened to all that way. Oh, yeah. That'd
be great. Yeah, what people could do, this would be the best thing straight. If using a podcast down screen, grab it, do an instant story and add us an agenda. Yeah, exactly. You have any energy left? Yeah. Yeah.
Because I wonder about that. I wonder about that. Like,
I feel like podcasts, you'd be pretty smart to just skip the first 30 minutes. Because I people warm up. Yeah, you realize what the podcast is actually about. And then you really get into it. Like
we're whereas like, commercial radio is like, get the mean straight out of the guy. Right. So I wonder that how people listen to podcast just on just listening doing something else.
It's just a part of
you think about a radio show, even though it's like not talking the whole time. But I was looking at Wikipedia pages of all old radio shows over the weekend. It's like, three to four hours like radio shows go for a long period of time to fucking songs and stuff in there. There's probably 50 minutes or an hour of too much. Would you talk on a drive show that goes for right now?
Guys? Yeah, what does I intend awaits with a drive show?
It definitely depends on the time slot. I probably talk for about 25% of a night show. Yeah, probably closer to 50% Breakfast Show, maybe even over 50% Yeah, yeah, we used to buy a lot of music
was some is that does that come from the two songs out of the top? Our music director does that come from the CD? Like who does that?
Just depends on the company. Yeah, someone more important than me. You know, it's a good time. Yeah. For
for a podcast. That Barry. Thanks for coming in mind. Hey guys,
I really like starting off Monday mornings right out of the gates with something vibrant and damn I say it
intellectual. Yeah. With with brought to you by McMaster.
Yes. Yeah, all the coffee pots are available. Yeah.
Already outside of McMaster. I couldn't think of any yeah there are if you go to the wire cutter there's actually some that rank higher okay,
but the McMaster is a probably belongs in a bloody Design Museum chances and cutting your finger low. That's why
I remember screen grab and at us and dandy booth as well as
Yeah, yeah, I'm genuinely interested in it
will say tomorrow guys. Hey guys.