Craig Harper On Situational Awareness

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 671.

Tommy: Craig Harper, welcome to the show, buddy.

Craig: Hi, kid. Hi, kids. Now I've been given bloody tutorials and instructions on my new microphone. Don't be too far away, keep it at the right height. Yeah, you're not that good looking, try and cover up your face, show a bit of the tip. That was Josh's advice of the microphone. And you said you like it as well. There's a bit of tip showing. I like that you said I I said, what are we talking about now? Is this an audio thing?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: How raw have you gotten on the, on the Zoom calls? Have you taken your top off yet, or what? The VIP program?

Craig: This is actually the first time I've had a top on. But I just— quick plug, because, uh, there you go. Do the work or shut the fuck up. There you go.

Tommy: How are you, Harps?

Craig: I'm really good. Thank you for having me, because I'm very lonely. I've been in lockdown for 3 weeks, and, um, only child living all by himself in suburbia. No cats, dogs, other humans in the joint.

Tommy: You're a creature of habit. I mean, what's, uh, what's changed in your daily habits or rituals since—

Craig: What do you think, Tom? It starts with bar and ends in bell. What do you think?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

Craig: There's no gym. There's no gym for the gym junkie.

Tommy: Oh, I mean That was your home. I couldn't get onto you at about 5:30 every single day. That's where you are. What are you doing?

Craig: I'm improvising, adapting, and overcoming. I'm training at home. I've got some dumbbells, I've got some bands. As you know, I've got a bit of an outdoor area where I do some bodyweight stuff. I've even started, hang on, sit down everyone, doing a little bit of running. What? No. Cardio schmatio. But a little bit of cardio, going down to the beach. I live 800 metres from the beach, so. Yeah, it's been an interesting time, boys. It's been an interesting time.

Josh: Oh God, you're okay?

Craig: Yeah, it's a microphone accident. Um, um, yeah, everybody's— everybody's— it's our new normal. It sounds very cliché, but it is. You know the word I'm hearing all the time? We've got to pivot. Have you heard that? Oh yeah, yeah, there we are.

Tommy: You got to pivot in unprecedented times, Craig.

Craig: Oh God, I'm like, did somebody—

Tommy: some—

Craig: did some people just realise that word exists or something? It's every second set. Yeah, well, then they times. We've got to pivot economically, we've got to pivot financially, you know, business, uh, this sector, that sector. We're all pivoting. Okay, all righty. So well, maybe we're just getting used to shit and just doing new things.

Josh: You do a lot of events, uh, Craig. Shannon, one of the, uh, Gronks in Queensland, she was messaging saying she was spewing because of the, uh, the corona cancellation of a gig that you were going to be doing. How much has this affected what you do?

Craig: Well, it's only been all my money. So other than that, it's only all my business. See, the thing is, when your job is talking to rooms full of humans and then they ban rooms full of humans, it's somewhat problematic. But, you know, honestly, there are people in way worse situations. But we've just, like everyone else, trying to figure it out, improvising and adapting and overcoming, as the Marines say. And yeah, so all my corporate work for the year has at this stage fallen over. We'll see if any of that gets life breathed back into it. All of our public events and workshops and camps and seminars have either fallen over or been put on hold. We'll see how they go. But, you know, it's— well, as Mr. 97 unfortunately learned yesterday when he was trying to workshop me through some very fundamental technology, I'm a moron. And, you know, so I've been doing a— I was going to say a PhD in Zoom, probably a Cert 1 in Zoom. I've been doing a Cert 1 in Zoom over the last week or two. And Melissa, who runs my life, of course, she's been propping me up. And we're doing our first Zoom event starting next Monday, which is a mentoring program. I've got like nearly 200 people in, so I hope I don't fuck it up. There's every chance I will fuck it up, but we'll see.

Tommy: Well, I mean, you, you were so great at working the room. You're so great at being, you know, in-person coaching. I don't know about your over-the-phone skills. Uh, our convo is, um, it's pretty good when we chat on the phone. No, but in, in seriousness, how have you found communicating, doing what you do via this technology? Is there a difference, and what are the barriers if so?

Craig: That is a really good question because I mean, you all know me pretty well. I rely on being able to bounce off humans in the room and energy and paying attention to people's physiology, you know, their body language, the way that they're sitting, leaning in, leaning out. Like I can read a room really well just because I've done it for a very long time. But when there is no room to read, Yeah, it takes— it's a whole new thing. And you know, standing in front of a group where you're getting immediate response and immediate interaction and immediate energy from hundreds of people, that's my natural habitat. But sitting in an office like I am now, delivering a message or some ideas or a webinar or whatever it is to a room full of people who aren't in my room, they're in all their own rooms, yeah, it's a completely different challenge. And to be honest, It's harder. It's way harder, but I'm getting better. I'm doing more of it. I've done— I opened a conference in inverted commas last week, then I did a closing. So that was for people all around. That was people in quite a few countries. And I think it went okay. Yeah, but it's just— I mean, the interesting thing, there are many interesting things about what's going on. But, you know, we talk especially in In the space of performance and potential and personal development and self-help and professional development, we're always talking about being better, being more efficient, being more resilient, more resistant, more productive, more proactive, effective. Like, everybody wants to be a bit tougher, a bit stronger, a bit more resilient, all those things. And right now we're in the middle of, you know, everything that is unfamiliar, uncertain, and uncomfortable. For all of us physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, financially, professionally. And you guys have adapted, everyone's adapting. But I think, you know, there are— of course there are a lot of negatives and we're very aware of all of the terrible stuff that's going on globally. But I think if there are any glimmers of light, one of them is perhaps the fact that now we are learning a lot about ourselves. You know, one of the questions that I asked myself was when all of this started to happen, is how am I going to respond in the middle of the inconvenience, the discomfort, the uncertainty, the pain, all my gigs falling over financially, all those things that were going on. And I thought to myself for two reasons. One, for me, well, you know, Mr. Smarty Pants, it's time for you to really walk your talk. And it's time for me to be authentic and to step up for the people who listen to me and pay attention to me and follow me. So I've been very— I feel a real sense of responsibility to my not very small audience. So I have a fair few people who follow me on various platforms and I literally, 2 minutes before I jumped on this, I got an email from a guy I don't know just saying, "Thank you for everything because if you didn't share the messages that you do, I wouldn't be coping the way I am." And for me, that's just— don't know him, never met him, just really appreciate it. It's all of it is new for all of us. And I think, you know, we live for the most part, most of us, not all of us all of the time, but we live a pretty comfortable, convenient, predictable existence. And we're programmed for that. And then when we get the opposite of that, you know, it's a real test.

Tommy: I feel privileged that I get to call you on your mobile and have chats to you. And I'm feeling— because I feel like if I'm not doing great, I want to call Craig, see how Craig's doing in this time, because I feel like you are that person that is you know, able to sort of comfort me without me even telling you I've got a problem sometimes. And I could imagine that's the case for a lot of people. But then you said that is responsibility. How do you as a human deal with that? Because a lot of responsibility can be daunting or annoying, or, you know, it depends on—

Craig: yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't mean it— responsibility as a burden. I feel this is going to sound weird, and some people will go, you're a dickhead. Don't blame me, that's okay. But I feel almost like a calling on my life to help people. That's what I think my purpose is. My purpose is not to build a brand or business or make money. And I would say 30% of the work, in inverted commas, that I do with people listening, talking, coaching, mentoring, helping, supporting, maybe 40%, I get $0 for. And I do it with just as much enthusiasm as the paid work. So for me, it's just a matter of, you know, I don't overthink things. I control my controllables, which is cliché, but I go, every day I'm going to step up, show up, own up, do my best, be vulnerable, express all my own bullshit. What I find is, especially when you are perceived perhaps as somebody who's got some knowledge or something to listen to or some experience or some strength or some insight, When I also share with people that, you know, I deal with my own stuff and I've got body image issues and I've got eating issues and I've got fucking— I overthink and I'm full of self-doubt at times and I fuck up and I get up and I fuck up and I get up again and all of those things, then people find you more relatable and more connectable. And I think that— and I don't do it for that reason, but it's just, you know, rather than trying to be some kind of inspiration or trying to motivate people or trying to be some kind expert, which I'm definitely not. I feel like if you're just you and whatever that is, all of you, the good stuff and the bad, and you share with people what you're going through and how you're dealing with it, that's much more relatable and inspirational to people than, you know, here's my fucking motivational quote for the day.

Josh: Have you found any advantages or positive sort of perspectives on doing stuff like Zoom?

Craig: Yeah, you know, um, that's a good question, Josh. For me, it's like Mr. 97 saw my frustration yesterday, which was not at him, but I just get— I go, oh, I did this, oh, I've learned a new thing, boom, and then the thing doesn't work and I have no ability to fix it or to figure out why it's not working. Um, but my, you know, the thing of having to do— and I know for you guys this is This is the equivalent of me picking up a dumbbell. But for you guys, this is just what you do. But for me, being immersed in technology where for me this is very new, it's made me learn a new thing and to figure out as well as being strategical and practical also to— I'm reasonably creative. I've written 9 books and all that stuff. I need to go, how do I apply my creativity to this medium and this resource that I now have available to me? How can I turn what I do— teach, share, coach, encourage, support— how can I bring those two things together so that we might be able to share something with the world that adds value, that's not like the 57 billion other voices screaming for attention via, you know, the internet?

Josh: I feel like also the, uh, You're normally standing in a room. The idea of being seated is probably part of it. Have you thought about standing up during?

Craig: Yeah. So what I'm going to do is, I was going to move my shit, but that will be catastrophic. But okay, so behind me, it's 97's going, don't touch anything. He sent me a learner plate that he wanted me to wear today, which I totally agree.

Tommy: You thought it said learner, it meant loser.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Craig: I wonder what those small letters were. I didn't have my specs on. That's helpful. So just next to me on my left is a whiteboard on the wall. So when I'm doing my mentoring groups, which start next Monday night, I'm going to relocate all of this over there to where those chairs are. I'm going to move the chairs and I've got a lectern, which, yeah, I'm going to do the whole thing standing. So in fact, next time, if and when we do another one of these, if we're still in lockdown, which I hope not, But I might do it from— because I'm aware that the lighting in this room is not very good. But yeah, Josh, you make a really good point. I'm not— I'm used to walking and talking and I can't even— when I have to do a gig for a company where they give me a podium, a lectern, a mic, a fixed mic, I go, I can't do it. I need a lapel mic.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And if they're like, well, we don't have one, I go, well, get me a handheld mic because I cannot stand on that thing and talk into that thing and not move for an an hour. I can do it, but it won't be very good. So yeah, it's been a big— I like moving around the room and I get more energised when I'm doing that. So yeah, this is also, you know, but I've done a lot of radio over the years, so you know, that has been nice training.

Tommy: I was thinking potentially the rat race, or what people think the rat race is, could be dead and coronavirus is rat poison killing the rat race. But do you think, like, in terms of what that sort of grind, 9 to 5, going into the city, like, how it's just sort of— it's making everyone sort of stop and look at what their pursuit, uh, you know, what their pursuit is in life, what their version of happiness and how they're getting it is. And, and like, at the— essentially we're in survival mode, a lot of us. Just enough money to pay your rent and your food at the moment. Everything else is an absolute luxury and privilege. What do you think it's going to do in 6 months, 12 months' time to the economy and people's approach to goal setting and their reality?

Craig: Well, I'm guessing, but you know, right now, in fact, let me read you something because it ties in, and this is going to go up on my socials later. I wrote this just before. If I told you that there was something that could make you more resilient, more adaptable, resourceful, creative, and aware, would you want it? And most people would go, yeah, I would love that. And the answer is, well, you're living in the middle of it, right? So right now we're in this, this altered state. And I think that a lot of us have a real sense of how amazing our life was before we came into our current normal. So one of the things that I hope is emotionally and mentally and socially that we take this new awareness and perspective and gratitude for what was back into when we get back to that place again. And I think that, you know, I think for a lot of people, me included, I'm thinking, well, moving forward, I'm going to continue to do— no matter where we're at in terms of the virus or the national kind of status, now that I'm kind of getting my head around this a little bit, this will be something that I incorporate a lot more. I think financially it depends on the businesses and the industry, Tommy, in terms of— I know 4 people that they've closed the doors on their gym forever, not just closed the doors temporarily. And I know a lot of gym owners, but I know 4 people who have gone broke. So, there are people who are— a friend of mine owns a catering company, very good catering company, also went into liquidation recently. There are a lot of people who are really hurting. And this is, you know, even if we're through the medical threat in inverted commas by whenever, let's go, I don't know, October, we're kind of in the clear. The professional and industry-related and financial consequences are probably going to be 5 or 10 years flow-on. And for some people who are, you know, even, you know, not me, but even on a low-level me, my bank balance is just going backwards every day because I have zero zero income. So I have a full-time PA who's amazing. I have premises that I'm still paying rent on. Melissa has a company car. I have, you know, and so, and it's, you know, it's fine. But my weekly expenses are about $4,000 and I'm making zero. So, you know, every 4 weeks there's $16,000. And, you know, you go, I can't do this forever. So, and it'll be fine and we're figuring things out. But, and my company's a tiny company. And I'm in a privileged position, I guess, in that— not privileged, but a different position. A lot of people have got 3 or 4 kids and school and clothes and a partner and all those. I don't have those expenses. But yeah, look, we're all just navigating it as we go.

Josh: Where's the perspective shift been? Like, what do you look back at now and say, "Wow, I really took that for granted"?

Craig: This is going to sound cliché. For me, not too much because I've always had an amazing sense of awareness of how all awesome where we live and how we live is, I guess, really simple things like just the freedom of being able to see a film or go down the road and have a dinner with someone or drive to the gym, swipe my card, just all the fun. Obviously, we relate it back to our personal stuff, but I've always been, I don't know, I've been weirdly grateful for what I have. I told this storey on my podcast a while ago, but one day a year or two ago, I was downstairs— I'm upstairs now in my office— I was downstairs here and I was, I had headphones on and I was in a conversation with somebody. And while I was on the conversation with somebody, I made myself a cup of tea and I made myself a bit of toast and I was doing all these things. I was fully immersed in this conversation while doing these other things. And then I walked up the stairs to my office and I got up and I got off the phone and it just became a— I'm like, how amazing is it that I can just walk downstairs, turn on a kettle, turn on a light, there's hot water, there's food with fridge in it, then I can walk up these stairs which loop around while carrying a cup of tea, eating a bit of toast, talking on a phone, not spit— I'm like, I just have an amazing appreciation for Everything, everything from the way that we can just move and live to our ability to just turn on a tap and there's hot water. You know, turn on a light and there's— turn on a switch and there's light. There's a fridge with food in it. There's air conditioning. There's heat. I'll just walk out and jump in my car. Most people in the world don't have that. We in Australia, we all have that all the time. Well, most of us, you know what I'm saying? And so for me, I know that's getting a bit philosophical, but I've always just thought I am just a really fortunate person who was born in an amazing time in an amazing place because the vast timeline of humanity, human beings have not lived like we live. And even us in lockdown, you know, somebody put up the other day, I'm stuck at home, and then that was swiped out and it said, I'm safe at home. And I thought, it's so true. It's all about the storeys that we tell ourselves. And yeah, they're real practical and legitimate. In challenges. I'm in one as well, but I'm not dying, you know.

Tommy: The, the 4 friends of yours, or I'm probably sure there's more, that are, um, their businesses are suffering or gone under. What is the, the difference in these people who are experiencing the same thing? But obviously they are probably all reacting differently. What are you seeing? What are the responses that people are giving you?

Craig: Well, I think from a— well, let's just talk about the practical responses. I think, you know, it depends on their business model as whether or not you know, they're going to survive or fall over with a lot of it because some people just have expenses that, that they can't avoid. And so they have to, you know, practically close their doors or whatever. But I think, um, sorry, what was the second part of the question, mate?

Tommy: About— it's just, you know, I love how you do the, this, the, um, setup at your talk where you get people up and sit them down on the chair and you've got 5 people all in the same area experiencing the same thing but different reaction. What are the reactions that these people having the same thing happen to them? What are they?

Craig: Yeah, that's good. That's a good question. So the— let's just unpack that exercise a little bit because it sets up this now. So I don't want to back over too much stuff that we've done, but this is always relevant because there's the external stuff that we're all going through— situation, circumstance, environment, government, coronavirus, all the practical. So that's the external things happening on planet us. Then there's the internal reality, which is thought, feeling, emotion, and reaction beliefs, fear ideas, creativity, reasoning, all of these things. And so what, what we see as the human experience, the bottom line of individual human experience, is really about the storey that we're telling ourselves. So let's say we had 5 people in the middle of the coronavirus who were all in a very similar situation financially and practically, then the variability of how they process the world around them comes into play. So, and as you've heard me say a thousand times, Tommy, when my storey is, oh my God, this is a fucking catastrophe, even though I'm not in the middle of a catastrophe but I believe it is, then that becomes my literal experience. Because a story, a cognitive construct, is followed by or accompanied by an emotional response— anxiety, fear— which is quickly followed by a physiological response. So adrenaline, cortisol, norepinephrine, elevated heart rate, breathing, sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight. So the mind, the emotion, and the body create the experience for the end user, so to speak. So then when we find somebody who's really good at discomfort, really good at chaos, really good at unfamiliarity, really good at uncertainty, then they do this thing or they practise this thing that we call in spiritual philosophy or spiritual construct equanimity, which is being the calm in the chaos. And so, which is something I've tried to practise for years, which is why I think, you know, in the middle of all of the good and bad stuff at the moment, I'm going okay. And I feel every day I actually feel really good and still really grateful.

Tommy: Well, a nice thought. Sorry, JJ. Sam Harris says in one of his, um, practises on his app Waking Up, and it's, um, meditation in the middle of chaos, is who— a great question for everyone to ask— who will you be in the middle of the worst day of your life? And it's a, um, and how will you respond? And, and what will that look like? I mean, it's hard to, hard to say based on You know, not experiencing the worst day of your life, but it could, you know, it could happen. It could be this, it could be your business going under, or, you know, your mum or dad passing away. And it's, you know, what— who do you want to be? Almost is probably a better question. Who do you want to be in that situation?

Craig: And a big part of that is stepping into what we call self-awareness or consciousness, where you start to become aware of self in the middle of all of the stuff that is not self. So you start to become aware of how my— what's my storey right now? You know, what, what am I doing with my thoughts and ideas? Where am I investing my energy? What am I paying attention to? Is it serving me or sabotaging me? And that is, you know, part of consciousness is just being aware of self and reactions and breathing and mind and physiology in the middle of all of the stuff that is out of our control. And so, yeah, Sam Harris's app is great, he's great. And that's, you know, this is kind of, you know, one of the things that we talk about, I think, not enough in personal development. So much of personal development is not about the person, it's about all the external stuff. Whereas I'm really fascinated with individual responses to external stimuli. How does Josh deal with it? How does 97? How does Tommy? How does Craig? How do they all individually deal with the exact same thing at the exact same time? Because each of our experiences will be determined by us, not by what's going on. And that's, you know, that's the— that's why I'm studying, you know, a doctorate in neuropsychology, because that is the stuff that just blows my socks off. And when we can— I believe the start of being able to have a great life is understanding how your mind works in a range of situations, and then trying to work with your mind, not against it, and learning to manage is not the right word, but coexist in a healthy way with your mind because your mind is its own thing. It is not you and you are not it, just like your body is not you, just like your emotions are not you, just like your job or your car or your, your brand or your image or your podcast. It's not you, it's just something that you interface with.

Josh: Uh, when you are in a place where you feel like you're spiralling or you're in that negative sort of perspective. How do you shift?

Craig: That's good. So for me personally, I sometimes— I had a moment yesterday where I was quite frustrated. I blame 97 because it couldn't be me. No, not at all. I don't blame him at all. I was— and I knew my frustration, right? And I knew I was the problem. But you know when you know I don't know, like I've never been drunk, but I feel it's like when you know that something's happening to you and you're a little bit out of control, but you can't just pull yourself instantly out of it.

Josh: Well, it's like saying sorry, right? Like I was saying this the other day, like I know that if Bree and I are fighting, I could stop it and make the decision right now and say sorry and everything would be fine. But there's the the baby in us, which is like, nah, fuck it, like, I'm, I'm, I'm right on this.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: And it's just like, it doesn't actually help anything. And so you're aware enough, obviously, to understand, oh, you know, I'm not being reasonable in this moment. And so when do you— I guess we almost can lean into that, right? We— and that's where the spiral comes in. It's like, hey, I know that there's another option here, but fuck, I'm actually— I'm having a bit of fun being a prick. 'Or I'm having a bit of fun just blowing up.' And so how— is it just time for you, or are there actual mechanisms to make the switch?

Craig: Yeah, this is great. This is the great stuff. I love all this shit. So this is about in the moment. This is called situational awareness. This is called Self-Awareness 101, is recognising what you're doing. And then in that— because when all this personal development stuff matters is in the middle of the shit. Not when we're all in a workshop and everyone's having a nice time, or you're sitting on the beach reading bloody The Seven Laws of Highly Effective People, or, you know, whatever. Um, it's, it's really about in the moment. So for me, like, I was on the phone with Melissa yesterday following on with, um, my stuff with Mason, and we were just going around in circles. And she was trying— and she was, she was being amazing because you know, I'm, I'm a baby. And I was just getting— I went, I'll give you a call back in a minute. And so I just got off the phone and I literally, I, I called her 20 minutes later. Had nothing to do with her and everything to do with me because I could feel myself getting anxious. I could feel that. I could feel just the adrenaline. I could feel that. And I wasn't physiologically in a good place and I recognised it. So I just literally, I got off the phone and I walked around the block and I came in, I made a cup of tea, I sat in the chair behind me over my right shoulder, and I did about 4 minutes of breathing. I just do box breathing and I was completely calm and relaxed. And I rang her back and went, "Sorry, I was a dickhead." She goes, "You weren't a dickhead at all." But I was a bit of a dickhead.

Josh: Did you say, "Nah, it's Mason. He's a fucking pain in the ass, that Sebs." You know?

Craig: Well, yeah, I said that. You know, Mason's like, it's like, you know, when you go somewhere and everyone speaks another language that you don't. Well, he's like that. He's because he speaks that language. And I'm like, mate, I know 4 words.

Josh: He needs to come with a manual and it should include the breathing exercise, you know, after 10 minutes.

Craig: That's right, the operating manual for 97. No, he did a great job. I mean, for me, it's just amazingly impressive that, you know, but we've all got our strengths, don't we? You guys are amazing at what you do. I'm okay at what I do, and it's just trying to bring it all together in a way that's gonna, I think, right now anyway, serve people.

Josh: We've got some comments in on YouTube, Mace. What are people saying?

Tommy: Yeah, Jesse's saying, do you think that some people will have a hard time readjusting once this is all over? Because personally, I feel like I took a lot of things for granted before and will be excited to get back to them.

Craig: Um, yeah, I think a lot of people will, um, will not struggle, but it'll be interesting in the getting back into the north. I think also the, the re-entry into normal in inverted commas will be a very graduated thing. So I don't think it's going to be Sunday, okay, we're back to normal, Monday boom It's not going to be that. It's going to be culturally, socially, financially, politically. It's going to be a graduated thing over time. Look, the funny thing about this too is some— I've spoken to some people who obviously not— they don't want the virus and they don't like what's going on with people being ill, but they like it. It's like, I'm actually happier. Not happier that people are getting crook, but I fucking love— I quite like this.

Tommy: Do you think that's a reflection on their previous, uh, part, like their past, or them— they don't want what they had? They're seeing a new normal, or they're having a break from what it was and being like, I don't want that anymore, I want, I want something different, even if they don't know what it is quite, quite yet.

Craig: Yeah, I think so. I, I think also that— I think that's part of it, Tommy. I think that people are going, oh shit, how long is— it's like me that I said to someone the other day, I wrote on Facebook or somewhere, I wrote, until 2 weeks ago, I thought Zoom was a sound that cars made. And then all these people like, it's been around for a decade, you dickhead. I'm like, really? They're like, I'm like, how long's this shit been going on? Everybody's since, oh, you know, 2010. I went, really? You know, and it's— but I think also some people like Melissa, who's my PA business partner, runs my life, she, um, she is an introvert and she lives by herself and 30, I don't know, whatever she is, 30, um, very, um, never, never been in, uh, you know, a long-term serious— all that kind of stuff. She loves being by herself, and she, she really— she doesn't enjoy people being sick, and she doesn't enjoy, you know, navigating some of the practical things. But just on a, on an individual level, she's really quite happy working from home and doing the things she's doing the way she is.

Josh: It feels a bit like a, uh, a life audit. I feel like I'm Obviously it's a weird one because you don't want to— it feels like you're a bit of a prick if you take too much joy in something that is creating a lot of pain in the world. But I think for me personally, it's like I've never done more exercise, I've never been more creative, I've never been more sort of dialled in with what I want to do. And I think that for me, I love change, I love ambiguity, but I also love the, like, that sick feeling of, like, the, uh, it's a shared experience, you know. We're all hostages in our own home and we're all become mates. I don't mind it.

Craig: And I think it's just an interesting observation of human behaviour to see how, and not in a critical way, but just to see how people are in the middle of all of this. Um, and some people are responding great and some people a little bit terrified, and some people are started off terrified, now they're good. And, you know, it's just there's no, there's no single best response. And I think I had a lady on my podcast a while ago, Rachel, who's an expert in grieving and went through a lot of shit herself. And you know, some of the things that she was talking about and some of the things I've kind of researched myself over the years, I went, you know, what's really interesting, Australia doesn't realise it the first few weeks, but what many Australians are doing is going through a grieving process because we've lost, there's been a big sense of loss. We've lost our ability to hug people and connect and socialize. Lost our job and we've lost money and we've lost our normal. And so there was this, for some people anyway, this collective and individual grief happening. And now, and just like normal grief has stages, so too does this, where you get through the terror and the anger and then you move towards, you know, acceptance and some kind of positivity and solution focus.

Tommy: Yeah, I think there's— I feel like as a team we're kind of on that acceptance and moving forward. I think a lot of people— it's like, what has it been, 3 weeks since it's really gone into a serious state? Um, what's that— what's been the biggest challenge for you recently, Craig, outside of the Zoom stuff?

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Outside of anything to do with what you were trying to find normality in work?

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Cool.

Craig: Um, this— okay, I don't know how exciting this is going to be, so I've just, I've really had to come to terms with not being able to go to the gym. Now this is going to sound weird, but I'm, I'm, you know, very public with my issues around training. I'm probably addicted. I'm not addicted, but yeah, I am. I'm addicted. Uh, hang on, am I? Yeah, just, just that getting used to not being able to— like, I've been training every day in a gym pretty much every day of my life since I was 14. That's 42 years. So 4 decades down the track, now you can't go to the gym. Now, and not only can't you go to the gym, you can't train with your mate. Not only that, you can't hang out with your mate. And so that's been a big adjustment for me. And also, I— this is complete— people don't want to know this, but you know how you know your body? Well, when I'm around— when I'm 89, 90 kilos, I'm a little bit fat. I'm a little bit fatter than I should be. And when I'm 82 or 83, I look like I'm an endurance runner who shouldn't be an endurance runner. Like, my head looks like it's about to cave in. And so when I went into lockdown, I thought, I've really got to have a strategy around food and exercise because that is my, that is my kryptonite. And those who don't know, I was a morbidly obese kid. I was morbidly obese in my 20s. I was 120-odd kilos in my 20s. I was 90 kilos when I was 14. And I got in great shape. Then I got fat for a year or two in my 20s. Then, you know, I was still training, but I was eating all the food. Um, and, uh, you know, so for me, I just went, I'm gonna try— I've been experimenting with food. And I, I used to have this recurring experience, which was every afternoon, or most afternoons around 3 or 4, I'd just feel this wave of tiredness. And I'm like, what? And it's almost— you could almost set your clock by it. And so I thought, and I was up around 89 kilos, I was a bit fat, I thought I've just gotta watch my food. So when I'm gonna take lunch out, I'm gonna skip lunch, I'm still gonna eat a great breakfast, great dinner, or if I'm really hungry at lunch, I'll eat some protein but no carbs. So I'll have some chicken breast and broccoli or something, whatever, something super exciting like that. But what's happened is, in the last 3 weeks, I've lost 4 kilos, the afternoon tiredness that I had is 100% gone. So no lethargy, no cognitive kind of cloudiness. Um, energy is good, mental acuity, recall. I'm studying every day, doing my, my research and my PhD. I'm doing interviews, I'm being interviewed, I'm writing another book, and my brain works great all day. And it's only about the food. And I just real— it's taken me way too long to realize, but I just realised that me Even though I don't eat a lot of food, there are certain foods that for me almost turn my brain into a coma, put my brain into a coma for 2 or 3 hours.

Josh: The—

Tommy: sorry, just around the guy that has been training in the gyms for 40 years, you could say that that is a view on your identity. I know it's sort of like it's an action that creates a response And so you get— there's a lot of benefits around identifying as that person. But this is a challenging time for our identities and the person that we thought we were and now having to be something else. What do you, what do you see in, in that in relation to the— your identity? And, and yeah, yeah, thinking about that, also a good question.

Craig: So I've again really public with talking about my issues around, um, insecurity and self-esteem growing up and getting a sense of self and self-worth and purpose and acceptance through my biceps and my bloody abs or whatever was going on at the time. I've kind of worked through that, and, and within reason, I don't— I mean, I care what I look like, but I'm not obsessed with that. I just want to be healthy and fit and in good shape, and I want my body to work and my brain to work. But I still have, um, I would say if I'm being completely honest, I probably have an unnecessarily or an unnecessary dependence on, uh, getting to the gym. But, you know, having said that, I, I, you know, there's no such thing as a healthy obsession. But I, you know, I train minimally in that I train every day for an hour. Sometimes it's 30 minutes. Um, uh, but it's, yeah, it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing battle because we, we all get our sense of self from something, including me. And it's, again, this is part of the awareness and, um, you know, stepping into consciousness is trying to know who I am beyond all those things. And so for me, it's been, it's been interesting to, um, not go near a gym, not touch, you know, gym equipment other than a couple of dumbbells, and to be okay with it. And the longer it goes on, the more okay I am with it.

Josh: How much of the food stuff do you think is about control for you?

Craig: It's less about control and more about how I feel, but that is a good question. I am a control freak about myself. I don't want to control anyone else. Do you reckon it's placebo?

Josh: 'Cause I wonder that, 'cause I'm feeling great at the moment, and part of it is because I used to be really heavy and I've fluctuated. I always feel better when I'm eating better,— and what I can't work out is how much of it is the nutrition and the good food and all that sort of thing, and how much of it is playing into I'm in control, I'm doing what I want.

Craig: So I think physiologically it's all about the food. Psychologically it's probably a bit about the thing that you're going, hey, I'm doing this, I'm disciplined, I'm eating well, I'm a bit proud of me, I've got a little bit of momentum going, look at me, look at me, there's a bit of that. That happens with all of us. But 100%, there's, you know, your brain, your brain feeds on glucose. And, um, the moment that you start to shove starchy carbs into your body in the middle— well, the moment that I do, there's a, there's a consequence. So I either need to eat not very much during the day, um, or, or next to nothing. And that's how I work best. By the way, this is not a prescription or a program, anyone, and this is purely about how my body responds But that's the thing, I think with all of these, with all of these various things that we need to manage on a personal level, whether that's sleep or whether that's food or whether that's exercise or whether that's relationships or whether or not that's managing our money or, you know, studying or— I think it's a really good opportunity, this downtime for want of a better term, to experiment and see how your body or your brain or your happiness goes doing different things. I spoke to a lady the other day who wanted some advice, and anyway, I said, why don't we— doesn't matter what it was about, but her and I together set up a 28-day programme for her, and it was just changing 2 variables. I said, keep everything else the same, change these 2 things, and let's just see how your mind and your body respond to this new operating system. Because that's one of the challenges is, you know, there is so much— like even you look at coronavirus, two people get it, one's got no symptoms, one's got all the symptoms. You know, what's that about? That's about genetic genetics, that's about biological response. And that's pretty much the same, that's a metaphor for a lot of things in life. We all deal with things differently. And but, but I also think we need to I'm always talking to people about where you work and how you work. I love the fact that I haven't had a job in inverted commas for 30 years. I love the fact that most of my day I spend in bare feet. I love the fact that I get to turn up to talk to, when the world's not ending, rooms full of people and I absolutely love it and that's my job as well as I'm doing some good. But I know that my operating system for somebody else would be the worst operating system in the world. There is no best program. There is no best job. There is no best diet, but there is a best job situation, diet, programme for you, and it's trying to figure out what that is for you.

Tommy: Yeah, like I think it's advantageous to understand self and what's within self, like the identity and how— where you're placed and your surroundings and what you want to become and how you're perceived. But it's interesting, as you sort of delve deeper into meditation practices, spiritual practices, it's almost like we spend our first years of our lives working that stuff out, trying to, you know, have, um, good self-esteem and all these words relating to self, you know, add the, add the bit on the other end. But then it's— you get to this point where you're like, it's actually— there's a— there's this layer back or you're stepping back because you're trying to drop all of that, or you're trying to understand the stuff that you can't control and everything else within it. What I mean, can we just explore, explore the term self, self-awareness, and, and where you think it fits within those two paradigms of no self and then high, you know, high focus on self?

Craig: Yeah, that's, that's a big conversation, but You know, so from when we're zero, when we're first born, to depending on which research you look at, 5 to 7, generally we're being really programmed, taught and told and trained and programmed to, uh, live a certain way, communicate, think a certain way, and be a certain person based on certain language and beliefs and values, um, and faith depending on your culture and all of those things. And then We grow up, you know, it's— if mum and dad were vegans, and mum and dad were hippies, and mum and dad were Buddhists, and mum and dad lived a very specific way, for example—

Josh: Mum and dad love chocolate biscuits, in my case.

Craig: Yep, for example, in your case, there's a fair chance that by the time you are 10, 11, 12, 13, you're going to very much be a reflection of your parents. Not because that's what you chose, but that's just how you've been trained and taught. Programmed. That's not good or bad, that's just what happens to humans. And so the challenge for us as grown-ups is to try to figure out, in part, who we are beyond that programming and that culture. And, you know, I went to 7 Catholic schools, I went to a Catholic university. I'm not at a Catholic university now, but I had Catholic parents, I had Catholic friends, we had priests and brothers and nuns at my joint all the time. I was absolutely indoctrinated with that particular religion, which means a particular way of behaving and thinking and socialising and believing. Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but there was very little chance that by the time Craig was 15, he was going to be an atheist or a Buddhist or a Muslim or some other kind of, um, religious devotee, because I'd been trained and taught and told. And so as we get older— I'm not saying being a Catholic's good or bad, or being a vegan's good or bad, or voting Labor's good or bad. I'm saying it's not about any of those things. It's actually about thinking. It's actually about awareness of self in the middle of all of the programming of self. And where you start to go, you know, are these my beliefs or are these just mum and dad's beliefs that have become mine over time? Do I— is this really my values, my value system, or is this their value system that I've adopted? And that's not to say, that's not to criticise anyone, it's to start to think for ourselves. When I started to question some of the things that were happening in front of me, because I was probably a very annoying kid, but I remember asking questions. I remember being in church one day, and I don't know if anyone's— anyone on the call is Catholic, but back in the day, women were not allowed on the altar in, uh, in a Catholic church, just men, of course. Anyway, one day, I don't know, I was maybe 13, we're at church and there was a lady in the middle of the service who was doing something on the altar, right up there with the altar boys and the priest. This lady came on and she was— and I go, Mum, what's that lady doing up there? And she's like, oh well, no, that's how the Pope bloody made a decree or something. I go, what? Because until that point in time, I'd been taught, told, trained, and programmed that that was a sin. I'm like, well, Mum, it's either a sin or it's not a sin. And then that got me thinking, because I'd been taught and told in absolutes, and then all of a sudden they go, now that thing that you've believed for 13 years, that's wrong, it's not a sin anymore. And in my mind, well, it's either a fucking sin or it isn't. What's going on here? There's something— there's some skullduggery going on. But again, it wasn't about Catholicism, it was about fucking belief, and it was about convention, and it was about thinking, and I started to think, I wonder what else I've believed that might be bullshit. And I've always had that, that sense of curiosity around what could I be if I didn't have this insecurity? What could I be if I didn't have this? What if Craig Harper grew up in a totally different storey with different players in the story? Who would I be and where would I be and what would I be doing? Because that innate ability or potential, it's there in you. But what limits us is not the potential or ability or genetics or possibilities, but rather the thinking that gets in or the programming that gets in the way. And that's liberation, is when we open that door.

Josh: It seems like the cliché or the obvious thing is that when people, you know, move out of home or when they're in their 20s, they experience these things where it's like, oh, hang on, I'm not aligned with this anymore. What's been something later in life that you've actually identified as something that was an acquired belief from someone else, like your parents, and not from you?

Craig: Oh, this is going to be hard to open the door on, but I spend a lot of my life being quite religious. Um, not religious as in preaching to people— oh, that's not true, I actually literally preached. So I was, I was, uh, here's a, here's a fact no one needs know. But I went from Catholicism to rafter swinging, tambourine banging, uh, Bible thumping, uh, fundamental Christianity for quite a while. I was fascinated with all things Jesus-y, and, and I was very, um, uh, very immersed in that and very curious. I was— I've always been spiritually curious, or God curious, whatever what that means. I don't know why, I just was. And that was a door that I opened, and I went down that rabbit hole for quite a while. And there are still things in me, because that's been a big part of my programming, where even now, all these years later, I still feel a level of guilt to say, I don't believe that, or I do, you know, it's, it's to not be, because I'd been so programmed. And so even for me, there's still things now where I've walked away from that paradigm of religiosity, uh, and I have my own thoughts. And it's not just because these are— I'm not living in an echo chamber. It's not confirmation bias. It's not, oh, I just want this to be true. But there's just stuff that, that I— when you're in a really religious, um, paradigm, you are absolutely programmed and brainwashed not to question anything. And so when you do question anything, and this is how they control and manipulate When you do question anything, you, you are criticized, marginalized, rejected, and you are, you know, you manipulated in a magnificent way. It's actually very clever but very dangerous.

Tommy: Well, I mean, it's, it's hard to speak the truth of, uh, this is true or not. So the belief in God or the Bible or these things. Yeah. It's hard to— you could challenge both of those. If you strongly believe that there is no truth, how is that true? Like, it's— you could go both ways. And so where I feel like you're fitting, Craig, is like, I can't— I'm not certain that it's not true, and I'm not certain that it's not— that it is true. So it's like a middle ground that there is a potential for shit that we don't understand. And that is—

Craig: and I think— yeah, go on.

Tommy: No, that's it. Yeah, that's all I got, mate. Take over.

Craig: Yeah, like, I— no, not at all. I just think that we feel, um, the truth is when we come and people don't— well, the truth is, there's a big statement. Okay, in my opinion, comma, fuck, in, in Craig Harper's opinion, for what it's worth, you know, the, the whole premise of faith, right, which is what Christianity is based on— it's a faith walk, they say that it's a walk of faith. Is faith is believing in something that you can't prove. So if you could prove it, you would have evidence and knowledge, therefore you wouldn't need faith. So let's not get too hysterical about something we have no proof of. Feel free to believe whatever you believe, just like I'll believe what I believe. But if my belief and your belief don't align, that's okay. That's not a reason to hate each other. That's not a reason to create all of this separation in mankind and humanity across the world. That's not a reason to go to war. That's not a reason to, you know, that the— ironically, most religions seem to have some kind of a foundation in this concept of unconditional love. Yet all religions that I've experienced, perhaps with the exception of Buddhism, is extremely conditional. If you don't join, if you don't belong, if you don't think like we think, talk like we think, have our same beliefs, share our ideology, you can't belong. Well, I'm like, I've got friends that think nothing like me, that have totally different values and beliefs and perspectives. I love them. If they're my friends, they're my friends. There's something about them I love, but they certainly don't need to align with me or reflect my ideology or philosophy or faith or beliefs. To be on Team Craig. And I just think that there is so much conflict and so much inconsistency in religion, for me anyway, that it puts me off. And, you know, the— it's, it's so often where there are so many holes in so many theological constructs that you can't even have a conversation with some people because they'll be incredibly defensive. And maybe I'll find out one day I'm completely wrong when I'm sizzling in hell like a fucking sausage on a barbie, maybe I'll figure that out. But, you know, who knows?

Josh: Lara in the livestream comments, she was asking, do you think that there's a difference between temporary— when it comes to grief, temporary loss versus loss forever?

Craig: Um, yeah, I think— I mean, there are layers, there are levels of everything, aren't they? You know, it's like whatever, there's, you know, losing somebody that you love. Well, that's a 10 out of 10 on the scale, isn't it? And then there's, you know, losing your job. Well, that's not a 10. Losing a human being that you love, that's a 10. And I think everything comes down from there. And, you know, it's again, it's all individuals and it's all scale. But yeah, I would think temporary loss is a, you know, something that we're going to navigate and negotiate emotionally and mentally much easier.

Tommy: Yeah. And Shannon says, I could listen to you all day. And so could I, Craig. You know, 3D Dill's joined as well.

Craig: 3D Dill coming at you live from— yeah, welcome back. 3D Dill coming at you live from Canada.

Josh: Um, death, just something light to finish on.

Craig: Yeah.

Josh: Also, how's your, um, I mean, you know, you, uh, you went through—

Tommy: there's immortality.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Craig: What he's saying is you're the closest to death. How's that?

Josh: Yeah, how's it looking up there? Give us a perspective.

Tommy: That's it.

Craig: Well, it's— the tunnel's getting darker, boy. Yeah, but maybe it's just a new door opening. Maybe I'm stepping into something else, who knows? Or maybe I'll just be worm food. I don't know. For me, I actually love where I am.

Tommy: I—

Craig: and some people say that and I think they're full of shit. I actually— and some people aren't, of course. I like where I'm at. I like I like my life. I like, I like what's happening with me. I like— there's no ego in that because I'm still a fuckwit, but I just love, I love the conver— I love this. I love these conversations. I, you know, what I really love about right now is that probably my favourite thing is that so many amazing conversations are happening right now, and despite our physical disconnection there's still a social-emotional disconnection, which— connection, I should say, which is amazing, you know. And we've all been forced to find new ways because we weren't meant to isolate. We don't work well in isolation, us human beings, socially, emotionally, physically. We work well together. We need connection. And, you know, there's been— speaking of health and longevity, You know, there's been quite a lot of research over the last 30 years really, but just coming to the fore now where, you know, we talk about things like smoking and alcoholism and nutrition and exercise. And but one of the key indicators of longevity is social connection. And when people are loved, when people love and are loved in return and they feel part of something, be that a tribe, a group, a family, Their life expectancy goes up, their immune system is stronger, their happiness is more prevalent, you know. And so this, this is a really interesting time, and that's why I'm getting so many people sending me messages going, God, I just want to give someone a hug, you know. So, so many people want a hug, but in the absence of physical hugs, we have these cyber hugs, you know.

Josh: Should we do one now? Should we finish on a cyber hug?

Craig: On 3. Okay, there we go, there we go.

Josh: Come in, getting closer. Hang on.

Craig: Oh, look at old 97. 97's a bit standoffish.

Josh: Reach, Sam.

Tommy: Are you gonna bring back the hug, Craig? Because I know, I know we like to hug it out. I've seen you hug many people.

Craig: I'd hug anyone right now. I'd take the chance. I need a fucking cuddle. Let's be honest, it's been a while.

Josh: How can people sign up to the shit you're doing online now?

Craig: Oh look, thanks for asking, uh, Joshua. Uh, look, they can go to my website, which is craigharbour.net. That's right, craigharbour.net. Go to the shop. Starting next Monday night, 8 o'clock, every Monday and Thursday, 8 till probably— it says 8 till 9, it definitely won't be 9 because I'm fucking extremely verbose. It'll be 8 till 9:30. It's 4 weeks, it's 8 sessions, it's $77. Which is about the cheapest online mentoring programme in the whole world. I can guarantee the content will be good, the delivery will be pretty good. I'm not sure about the technology. No, we'll be fine.

Tommy: So no, thanks, Melissa's handling it. She's very capable.

Craig: Thank God for her. Yeah, CraigHarper.net is where all my shit is, and follow me @whiteboardlessons on Insta.

Josh: Great, thanks Harper for being on the show.

Craig: Thanks, boys. Love you guts.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. Lots of love coming in on the live chat for Harps. You can join us live 11 AM and 4 PM, uh, youtube.com/thedailytalkshow if you want to join in on that. Also, all of these episodes obviously go up on the podcast apps too. Apple Podcast reviews, we always appreciate them. Otherwise, we'll see you at 4 o'clock, uh, Melbourne time, everyone. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.

Craig: See you, team.