- February 20, 2019
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we’re joined by our mate Matt D’Avella. Matt released a new video, The Other Side of Burnout, discussing how to hustle with intention and managing burn out.
Matt’s new documentary, The Other Side of Burnout
When to take your foot off the gas
The next phase of The Ground Up Show
Matt’s interesting day as a filmmaker
Having multiple personas as a creator
An update on Matt’s sunburn
The Chipotle food diary
Matt’s new video, The Other Side of Burnout:
Watch today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1VQ-H7-AM
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A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
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It's a daily Talk Show Episode 287
something bit different today. It's, it's not just the two of us, even though the two of us are right here.
It's a matter of Allah.
If I if I clap my hands he'll appear.
Like a little sound effect how
cool. You got the whole crowd that
live shows every day. What's cracking,
right? Yeah, this is great, man. We just we did this last second. You were like 15 minutes ago. Hey, do you want to come on the podcast? And I was like, Yeah, sure. Let me just set up all this gear.
It's what's great is that at the time that we record a show every day, it's like, the middle of the day for you. So right now you're in your apartment in LA. What are you up to? Yeah,
already drunk. Happy Hour. Now. It's 230. It's like midday right now. Yeah. And I was just slacking off and looking for a better way to procrastinate.
You guys gave me the perfect excuse. This is the perfect Yeah, this is still procrastination for us it from doing actually. any actual work?
Yeah, we've got I've got to do after this. But no, it's great. You released a new video seven hours ago, which wouldn't make any sense to anyone watching this. Now the videos
out I understand time.
if you're watching this in 2022,
seven hours doesn't matter.
Search met de Villa, look at his YouTube channel. What's your latest video, it's called.
It's called the other side of burnout. And it is all about burnout. I mean,
it's it's it's kind of
was a little bit of an exploration and playing around with the idea of hustle. And as you guys know, hustle has been a popular term. And it's been a part of culture for a long time. But there's recently been a wave of like, anti hustle. Yeah. And I think if I made this video and even explored this topic, three months ago, it would have been completely different. But I feel like now that everybody's doing it, everybody's talking about hustle and how it's so shitty. I'm like, I want to kind of come at it from a different angle. And I want to see how can we work hard, but how can we work hard with intention? And how can we prevent
burning out? I'll tell you what the local fish and chip owner Jim I guess he's name is has been hustling? Well, before it was cool hustle. He's just like, the work the working hard. But now, it's almost like a phrase. I think I've used the term hustle as a way to push through some pain, which I don't think he's or I'm joking.
I'm sort of being a little bit facetious. When I say it. Do you find it? You know, hassles now become a thing that everyone's talking about? minimalism. It's crazy to say how minimalism has spread on YouTube? How's that been for you think? Because you've you've been doing it for so long? Do you get a little bit of a sense of now I've got to find something new? Or does it make you want to produce more content? What's your view on it?
Well, when I started making videos on YouTube, I didn't exactly I didn't start really with minimalism. It was more so about creativity and filmmaking, and really just an exploration of like, how do I create original content on YouTube? What kind of stuff Am I making, and I was talking from experience of being a filmmaker. And then obviously, minimalism, the documentary was something I had created. And it was something that had connected with people, but I never really thought about telling stories about it for at the very beginning, and then I just made one video called my minimalist apartment that really started to pick up some momentum. And people started to I saw I, you know, I think a lot of times when you're creating online, you're waiting for that reaction to see what resonates. And it's not to say that you're going to bend your ideas to fit within that. But it's when you have an idea of your own or you you share something about yourself that seems to connect and resonate, and people are watching. It's like, okay, maybe I can do some more with this. And I think,
I think that maybe that's one of the reasons why my channel did well in the beginning was because there weren't a lot of men talking about minimalism on YouTube. And they're like, not at least within the high production value, that kind of stuff that I was creating. There's very few there was Anthony and Garrow with break the twitch but like, apart from him, you didn't see a lot of people, a lot of men talking about it. So I think like there was a combination of a few things that are different angle. But now obviously, with Marie Kondo and the discussion growing to be much bigger. I think it's harder for people to kind of stand out and do something different.
Do you feel that minimalism is the antidote? the antidote is a side antidote, the thing that helps fix burnout, but if I feel like when I went to did some filming with the minimalist here in Australia, when people would get up and speak about their minimalism story, it normally starts off with the fact that like, shit was like going a bit pear shaped before they find it.
Yeah, and I think that, you know,
minimalism, and intentionality can help you focus on what's important and maybe figuring out when you take things too far and burnout, but it's also it can be difficult to kind of separate the noise between what's real and Matt and I were just talking about this where intention is now a buzz word in trying being intentional with your decisions. And it's true, like you should be thoughtful about the things that we're doing. But sometimes it's hard not at all.
It's actually Josh his word for this tension, or was it
intentional consumption, which probably you could argue that may eating chocolate, we had to put the show on hold for an extra two minutes while I slammed a piece of chocolate, so I may be not nailing it, but it does feel like in an intentional to everything
yeah, it's okay. intention. Yeah,
it's not wrong. It's not wrong. It's good to be intentional. But sometimes it's I mean, I find my I do some I did like three, four interviews last week, and I just found myself just spitting platitudes. And I'm like, What am I doing?
I'm like doing such cliche
responses. I'm like, no better than talking about corporate synergy in the workplace.
So what what was the what's the Edit process? Like for this latest one on burn out? Jason? Yeah. is a great story. Did you start with having Jason is like the key point, or do you sort of film him and then be like, Oh, that was actually fucking great interview.
Yeah, so what that specifically this video and the interview, it's interesting how it all came about, because I initially intended to do a video around the hustle, bro, like the hustle mentality. And it stemmed from my first podcast I ever did with Jason, who I had since become friends with he, he mentioned hustle, bro, he mentioned having the hustle shirt and the hustle mug and just being all about the hustle. Then it led to his burnout. Like the fact that he made 800 plus videos day after day after day, it just became too much for him. So I was like, well, that's it's an amazing story, the perspective he had from a really creative and unique company that he built, which was he wore a new shirt every day with a brand on it. And those brands paid him to wear it. Every day he increased the price by $1 eventually expanded the business from one t shirt wear himself to five t shirt.
It was like a really silly idea.
Mini North Korea.
It's actually Josh is actually done the opposite was the same t shirt. It
doesn't cost me a lot.
I said somebody said in the comments. They said imagine how much do you think Matt would have to get paid to wear a branded t shirt? I'll just do it once. And I'll make the same amount of money that five years I don't think that would actually happen. But um, so yeah, he ended up making like a lot of money. But he ended up in $100,000 in debt, 50 pounds overweight, completely burnt out, hang out. And he decided to quit. So I was like, Oh, this would be cool to kind of tell that story and then interview Gary Vee and then make really a documentary about it. 20 minutes, maybe a little bit longer, trying to like expand upon what I'm creating on YouTube, and maybe not what you might expect from a YouTube video. But it was, you know, the scheduling of my Gary Vee interview got canceled. And then
I hustled as hard as I
met, stinky bad
humans, we all want. We all thrive off some struggle to push us beyond our sort of capabilities now to where we want to go. And it's like the I listened to Jason's story. And if you just take some of the pieces his is unique for himself. But the the sort of hustling or the the working really, really hard and not knowing what you're in it for to then realizing that there's this moment where everything's falling around you and you make this shift to find this great, passionate project that you're working on. Some of my friends who are successful, I've got a similar story where they had that moment. Is it like do we actually need it though? Like, do we need to sort of be show off to then be overcorrected? It's like what's going on? In politics? It's like, or, you know, PC culture, it's like we are being overcorrected in some ways, should come back, do we need that with? Like, is born out of necessity?
Did you have to be in $97,400 worth of
To be able to? Yeah, no,
I don't think so. I think like just 9000 would have been 9700. But,
you know, I think that it's
just everybody's circumstance is different. And I think that everybody's experience with burnout is different. And I do think that for people who are ambitious, and who really love what they do, I don't think it's a question, I think that you're probably going to come up against some kind of burnout, you're going to be swayed towards this, to be being a workaholic, just because you love it so much. It's hard to really define those those boundaries. And that's kind of one of the the takeaways in the video was that you should actually set up rules for yourself. And Natalie, when we first started dating, like she thought I was very Taipei, which I kind of am. And she was like all like, you have to have rules for everything, like no screens in bed or you know, email once, once a day for an hour. And I just found, I'm not very disciplined, like I will, if there's snacks on the counter, I will eat them. So I need to set up rules and to make sure that I get them completely out of the house so that I don't eat them. And the same thing with my work life, I have to be pretty regimented to make sure that things don't fall out of balance. And I'm not working when Natalie comes home. I'm not working really late at night or on weekends. And it's very easy for just this one time just this one Saturday or Sunday to turn into every single weekend. And then that's when burnout happens. It creeps up on you. And oftentimes it happens because you are passionate about something.
I felt slightly responsible when you started doing the no sugar video because I specifically remember us shoveling Krispy Kreme Doughnuts into your mouth before my flight. And when we're in Sydney
Yeah. And then you were going into doing the no show.
Yeah. And then you're straight into the was the define that the travel? Do you just how much do you have to keep? In regards to no screen time in bed? versus Oh, well, I mean, a new bed. It's not this bed, the rule is my normal bed.
Now, you know, I break rules all the time. And that's why sometimes I find it hard. And I try to give like, preface it and all my videos that like these are like rules that I tried. Yeah, but I mean does it like doesn't mean I follow every single one. And when I check email for an hour a day, or I make sure it's all scheduled and sometimes I'll fall back. And even I planned on doing just one cheat meal with sugar in it or like high levels of sugar in it per week versus just consuming a lot. And then I actually for the video my I quit sugar for 30 days video, I bought cookies, and I bought all this stuff for the video to shoot, right like I had to shoot B roll of me like eating cookies and you know, grabbing cereal. And so then I shot that actually, towards the end of it like probably like a day or two after the 30 Day Challenge. And they were still in my house. And I was like I guess I'll just eat. So that for the next couple days, I'm just like chowing down on cookies because of the video I made about quitting sugar. But yeah, I would travel. I mean, it's very difficult when you're at somebody's house and their snacks displayed out for the guests. How do you say no to that? It's rude. It's rude not to I think
burnout for someone who's actually having a level of success. So for Jason, you know, I guess let's move it away from Jason maybe someone who has a big businesses making heaps of money, but they burnt out. It's like, so the success equation is there. They're burnt out. What about for the person that isn't successful, hasn't made all the money or built the audience. But they burnt out? It's a hard one to go, do I actually quit now? Or do I just put my foot off the gas? Because it's not work? Maybe it's
maybe it's like a Seth Godin says the dip, right? Like this is the final, which I guess can enable bad habits, which is like I'm in so much pain right now. But I think that this is the pain that's going to get me the success. So
how do you work at when it is the time that you should actually pull the pin on something? And when it's all you just in burnout? Or when do you have to win? Should you stay in Boone? it?
Maybe that's a bit yeah,
yeah, actually. So I mean, I think that there are moments where we're hugging that line, and we're sprinting towards something like I see it as just a mindset, a sprint mindset. So if I have a deadline, for a documentary, I'm going to be working 1012 hours a day, I'm going to be working more weekends, and I would be skipping the gym more often than I would, which will lead to the feeling of burnout or you know, even burnout if I push it for too long. But the idea is knowing when to slow down. So for the film, and the film is complete, and it's not to like just grab the next film and just start again and put yourself back into that same position, which is unsustainable, because during those times your priorities have shifted. And your main priority is finishing this project, or getting your business off the ground, making it sustainable, and maybe a specific salary that you're aiming for where you're actually making a full time living as a creative. But you need to actually understand when to pump the brakes, when to take your foot off the gas. And you I think that you do that by clearly defining it. And sometimes Yeah, you're right. Like there's an intuition to it. And you could actually be in a project or a pursuit that isn't going to turn into or materialize into something. And you need to shift your focus,
soaking shifting focus. You're shifting what you're doing with the ground up show. What What was your thought process on that. So we were on late last year on the ground up show. And you were filming every single episode. And that was a big sort of I remember early days, that was a big part of it a differentiating factor for you, which was I'm doing this promo video, what sort of what was the learnings for all of that?
Yeah, and I like convinced you guys to do video.
that's like, Hey, guys, you really shouldn't be eating meat, you gotta go vegan, and then you fucking opened a BBQ shop, or you can eat?
you know, it was really thinking about my time thinking about the pieces of content that I create what was really resonating, and the fact that I wanted to start to create more documentary style pieces on my YouTube channel. And I didn't want it to always feel like hey, it's Matt from my apartment, you you know, I'm the minimalist talking about like, I'm in my closet showing you my clothes, like, kind of generic YouTube type content. Yeah. And I wanted to push it more and more into documentary style, which would be interviewing people. But then there was a dilemma, right of do I get them on the podcast? Or do I ask them to come on my YouTube channel. And it's much more likely somebody would come on my YouTube channel specifically for an interview for a film that I'm making, because it's going to get a lot more exposure than the YouTube channel. And I think that there's so many besides like, yeah, I could like interview with these mics and do this big thing. But I felt like there's a difference between setting up for an interview that would be in a film and obviously setting up a podcast. And I wanted to focus more and more on creating really great films. Yeah. And then on top of that, it's like I've done 100 interviews and met a lot of really great people. Not a Not, not a big fan, a meeting that many.
Like there were probably a
dozen or two that are written they connected with and I'm like, hey, these people could be friends with the rest, I found very interesting. And I learned a lot from them. But I was like, I think with the next phase of the podcast, I'd rather deepen my connection with people that I've already met. Because it's oftentimes when you're doing a podcast, and you're doing an interview based format, it's seeking the next big interview the next interview, you know what I mean? That's what brings people in. And I was like, I just want to have fun with it. And I want it to be something that I'm doing for myself. So I said, I'm just going to make it more casual. I'm going to strip away the video, I'm going to be able to do remote podcasts. And that's the current thinking of when I come back after this next break, do you
think it would have been possible to build the audience you have, by doing it the way you're now going to be doing it?
No, I, you know, I wouldn't change what I did and how I went about doing it. Because I think that doing the podcast or video, landing a couple big guests early on, and having people share these videos that I made, I would basically, you know, create three to four, sometimes up to eight, or nine teasers for some of the podcasts that I did, and send them to my guests. So then they could share it with their audience. And when they did have a big audience that's like, I think how I got the, you know, my first few thousand subscribers, my first few thousand listeners to the podcast. So I think it was was helpful to have the video aspect to it, because it's such a great promotion and marketing tool.
stuff making sense for you now, like, I'll give you I'll preface that question Josh and I look at what we're doing. There's so much ambiguity, and we don't know, where we'll end up, we kind of have a destination, we're going goals, we're setting things we're sort of taking off as we go. But it's, it doesn't quite make sense to us. Now. You've built the audience. Is it making any more sense?
Are we ever going to make money from this?
Yes. And no, I mean, I think that I'm filled with with just as much doubt as when like, I had maybe 50,000 subscribers. I think 50,000 for me was like a huge, I mean, even 15 it was just a huge turning point. And like, oh, wow, people are listening, this is amazing. And then, but I think you're still filled with the same questions, the same kind of doubt. And you continually have to shape and evolve the stuff that you're making. And I think sometimes if it's not making, if it's not sticking, or it's making an impact, it's either because you haven't been doing it long enough, and your audience hasn't found you. Or it's because you actually need to change something and you need to do something a little bit differently. And I think the figuring out which of those, if not both? I think that's when you need to just kind of like follow your intuition and your gut with where you
you think it should go.
I think he's saying we should stop doing the
final episode with Matt day. I don't know. Hi.
What's been the, you know, like, you have have done a feature length Doc, oh, you know, sold it to Netflix that a lot of creators on the dream of Do you think that having moved towards YouTube and doing the smaller doc owes a lot of creators overly obsessed with the feature length format? I know personally, I'm like, fucking want to make a feature film. And I'm not going to be happy until I see it happening a lot. What's,
what's your son? He's nailing these Instagram stories, though. So
you're on your way, right?
Yeah, I mean, I've been asking that question of myself a lot. I mean, what does it What does it matter if you're making an impact? If like, what's the difference between a view on Joe Rogan's podcast and a view on a documentary or a special on Netflix, you know, if each get the same amount of viewership and make the same amount of impact? What are we? What are we worried about? Yeah, I see a good challenge in creating a feature length documentary, I think you can, you know, I think that there's kind of a movement that was created around minimalism, it was already there, it was already happening. But I think that helped to facilitate some more conversation around it, it kind of feels more like a tangible thing, like, oh, have you seen that thing? versus Oh, do you listen to this in this show, which is more, a little bit more fluid. So I see the value in it, I see as a creator, why it's something that's that you would want to do, because it's very ambitious, it feels like a big accomplishment to do it. And I am, I am happy that I've done it. And I'm going to be doing it again in the future. But I think it's like, you know, whether that has to be on Netflix, or Hulu or minutes on YouTube, and it's a series and it's like, for 20 minute episodes, or whatever. I think that that should be thought out in advance. And I think if you're trying to make a feature length documentary, it's way easier to do that and to sell it and to make it sustainable. If you start with an audience, whether that's yours or somebody that you're partnering with.
I mean, maybe you've got the goal of I want a Netflix documentary, if you get it on Stan,
Hulu, Hulu, Hulu,
Amazon. So if you got it on one of these others, it's like, yeah, I guess it's having the goal. If you get sort of halfway there or quarter of the way there three quarters of the way that you've you've done something
is also the point, right? Like, what is the if the if you're seeking to get a podcast, or you're seeking to have a feature film, or you're seeking to have a YouTube channel? A lot of kids I guess when they're young, they want to become YouTubers. But what does that actually mean? There's a difference between being a celebrity
and being an actor, right? And so it's like actually working out what the specifics are, if you want to be connecting with people, if you like entertaining if you like talking, that could be a reason. Yeah,
yeah, I think that you need to find meaning, like internally, like the act of creating something, the act of making something or participating in an organization like that needs to be greater than the need for external validation or reward people, whether it's money, or its people who admire your work. The the external stuff, I think, is far less important. It's necessary in order to make a living doing it, obviously. But it's not necessary if you want to keep something going. And if you want to actually find happiness, is it
harder to communicate to people? you're at a party? You describing what you do? Do you say that you create content? What's sort of the elevator pitch for today?
You know what,
Matt and I, we were watching the bachelor the other night? I
don't know if you guys watch The Bachelor. Not really not the American version. It's very, neither do I neither do I.
Fuck you. She's She's got me into it. And now I've got to watch the Australian version and the American version.
It's nonstop they go back to back. So
that's your job now? Sounds like a full time job.
Yeah, it's basically a full time. Job. Yeah.
And it's it's all internal reward, too. But I will Yeah, so we were watching it. And then there was this chick on there. Or like one of the the girls, the contestants on the show. And she her job said content creator. And then I'm like, all right, what is it was this bitch?
And she doesn't she doesn't do anything. She just takes photos of herself.
Or model. Yeah, I mean, you're not a content creator. That's like, doesn't count as content. Yeah. And I just, you know, that's the best thing about watching this show. Is this shit on everybody. You say the meanest things that you would never say to somebody's face? And then just kind of talk about how the producers are just manipulating the entire show to make people say things. But, you know, yeah, I was kind of upset that they called her a content creator. So I mean, and I yeah, I'm kinda she was not a content creator. No, but
then, you know, Dan bells area and
every girlfriend hates a boyfriend following really why he's that dude that lives in LA one of the most expensive. He's the guy. He's a poker player owns a weed business. He's not that guy has a lot of money. And he is a pig with women. Anyway, he put out a tweet. He's like, if one of these fucking Instagram models with over 200,000 followers refers to themselves as a brand again, I'm going to jump off the roof.
I mean, it's coming from him as well, though.
He's ready. He's, he has a brand.
That's what's interesting. Yeah, content credit. Like it's, it's, that's why I guess we can't get stuck in the labels. Like we can't, we can't say them as much as you know, because we identify the fact that anyone can be a content creator, anyone can be all these sorts of things. So you need to then look a bit deeper and say, Okay, well, what am I actually trying to do? Just makes it hard to answer that question.
Yeah, I'm double videography.
Yeah, I honestly think that if all you're doing is posting pretty photos of yourself, like apart from photographers, of course, but if it's just like selfies, or you're always thinking about how to frame the next shot to see how many likes you're going to get, and you're essentially an influencer. I think that that has to come with a certain level of emptiness. And there, you need to find some other meaning in it. Besides just promoting products,
living auto ships living with that she's obviously got a full time job and employee when she sees what you're doing. Do you? What's the conversations around that? I know that especially like, early days with brain I, we had such different sort of work experiences? Is there stuff that you take from what that's doing and does not take stuff that you're doing?
Yeah, I have way less drama in my life. I mean, I don't have any employees, I, you know, have few collaborators, but for the most part, my work is up to myself. And there are things that could be stressful, like, oh, that interview got canceled that I was supposed to do tomorrow, like, but like, Natalie, like in my head when she's telling me about her day. I'm like, I don't know any of the faces, but I just no names. And I see like a chart of like lines and names and like this person did this thing. And then I have to like trace it back to eight other stories. She's told me in the past about how there's like this corporate structure, and it's do it is way more complicated. It sounds way more stressful. And there's way more drama in my life. And then like so she'll go on this rant for like 3040 minutes. And then she'll ask me how my day was, like, it was pretty good. I made a sandwich at lunch, and I went to the gym. And that's, that's about my day, like nothing. Nothing interesting happens. But I think that I'm happy, like, I'm happy that my life is relatively boring. There are moments that are very interesting and exciting. But for the most part, the day to day is quite boring.
Yeah. I mean, this is the most exciting thing about you guys today, right, man?
Yeah, I'm like, super, actually, you know, it's, you know, it's crazy. I just, this is exciting. I don't want to
just know my
direct, but I got this guy.
Johann Hari, he's going to be on Joe Rogan's podcast tomorrow. And then I just lined him up for after Rogan Can you
see? And this is an insane
rugged Rogan's in the valley, then he's coming back to Hollywood to join. What gay
dude? Yeah, dude, I did. I was listening to Sam Harris podcast this morning. And it was about addiction, and what depression and connection and finding meaning. And then halfway through
the podcast, I was like, Oh, this
guy sounds awesome. Like, he sounds like somebody who I'd love to interview for my YouTube channel. So I pause the podcast, I sent him an email. And then he's from the UK. So I was like, oh, maybe in like months, we'll be able to put it together. And then I got an email back within 30 minutes. He's like, I'm in LA. Like, call me at this comment. My WhatsApp number. So I call them and then we ended up linking up and then he's like, yeah, I'm doing Rogan tomorrow. I'm doing like all these like big, famous people. And I'm like, well, but you too?
And how much? How much easier is it got? Since nearly having the million subscribers like you? Do you lead with it? Or I could?
Doesn't you put that in the subject?
a lot like because I used to if you look at some of my old emails, and I still have like templates of what I used to send people if I was trying to get them on the podcast. And I think my leading line was just about directing minimalism, because I think that helped if if people had heard about it, having Netflix attached to me and one of my
what was it before that before minimalism? Was it like I,
I feel I was once they just showed
me? They tried to sue me assuming very good.
Don't lead with I got sued for 7 million.
What was it you remember the early days what you were sort of
sound like it was it was different products. I was doing freelance projects, for the most part. So I didn't have to like sell I you know, I had to sell in clients. But I wouldn't ever really do cold emails in the same way. But we did when we did minimalism, we had Josh and Ryan attached to the project. So obviously, them having a large audience helps. But we also created a teaser for the film, which was just simply high quality, maybe a minute and a half. Voiceover with some B roll explaining the concept of the film. And I think now that the quality of that probably wouldn't have sold many people at the time. I think the quality was pretty good. Now it's, there's there's many more filmmakers, and you could do more with stock footage than than what we did. You can do more in like an hour than what we did in a week. But anyway, it was like having this high quality teaser that we could send around like people people would understand, okay, this is like an actual production. They're not just going to show up with their Sony Handycam, or their flip phone to record this thing. I
used to copy and paste a radio person's signature and put in my name. The title of what I gave was a roving reporter. And I'd send it from my personal Tommy, Tommy jacket calm.
Having your own.com
does help. I just think it's a level of credibility. But I was very much scraping the barrel trying to get things across the line.
Yeah, it's like you get way less responses. It's funny. Now I've got a couple people who like maybe didn't respond to me who,
oh, I'm just seeing his
DMS and it's like me being desperate two years ago trying to get them on my podcast. So yeah, it has helped a lot like now I will lead with like, usually like interview with audience of like 900,000 subscribers or whatever. And that's based on some templates of other people that I've seen do it I it makes me feel a little bit dirty. But you know, being dirty is okay if once in a while, like if it if it works, it works. If it gets the person that you want to be interviewed, then I think that makes sense. Obviously, for people like Joe Rogan, it just you just say interview Joe Rogan. Like you don't need to actually post the numbers because people already know
it doesn't have to be dirty. I think that's a good life lesson though. It's okay to be dirty sometimes if it gets
like it art of being dirty.
Like that's gonna be my next video.
What is the next video coming out? What is it every Tuesday?
Every Tuesday? Yeah, you know what I actually,
this was based on Natalie's feedback, but I woke up one Monday, just like kind of stressed just because I'm like, man, I am doing. Like, I sucks that I made my deadline for every week, Monday, like every Monday, I have to make a video, which means that oftentimes I'm running behind. And then that means I have to be doing work on Sundays. And I'm working all through Monday to finish this video. And that was like, Yes, too bad. You did that you should have just made the release date Tuesday. You're like, yeah, maybe I should do. I don't know why you never thought of it. And you know what I mean? Like you're getting this routine where you like I gotta do it Monday is when I said I'm going to do it. So then two, three weeks ago, I changed it to Tuesdays. And then it's just one of those lessons that you have to teach yourself that you can change things, and not to be so rigid with it. And that has helped me my peace of mind a lot. Like it's weird. It's not like I've gotten any more time in my week. But I feel like now that I have this extra day before I release it an extra work day before I release it, it just gives me a little bit more room to create. And that means that I'm not going to be burning out working on weekends to should you just fucking around and just being really unproductive.
What do you mean? Like do you give yourself every every Wednesday, I'm gonna do nothing
is that today with Wednesday here. It's Tuesday, where you are.
I try not to schedule a lot of stuff. I try not
to do a lot of stuff. Most of my day is like if people saw my calendar, it would just be largely empty. And like, like, it's I mean, last week, it was an exception. I did like three podcast interviews. And I did a couple other interviews and you know, work on videos and a lot of stuff and did brunch and whatever. But for the most part, I like to keep my days completely open. And it takes a lot of discipline. And also it just really takes caring about what you're doing. Like I really love making films. So I have like a short to do list of projects I'm currently working on. So I'll just get started. And I know what I need to do. But yeah, for the most part, I don't have like a whole lot of I don't have scheduled don't do anything time. But I do sometimes like this morning. It's just weird how I just decided to listen to a Sam Harris podcast episode from a couple weeks ago. And then that just completely changed the rest of my week.
What some creators that you're enjoying consuming at the moment.
I do like Sam Harris, I like Joe Rogan, I've been listening to their podcast quite a bit. There's this like, I,
I'm kind of interested in politics. It's like, it's like popcorn these days. It's just always there's something crazy happening. And I get sucked into it a little bit too much like going on CNN and checking out the news. And there's this journal independent journalist called Tim Poole, who I found through Joe Rogan. And through the whole Patreon kind of censorship, controversy. And they Joe Rogan. And Sam Harris recently had jack Dorsey on their podcast, who is the CEO and founder of Twitter. And there was a huge controversy is just because of the censorship that Twitter has followed through with in the past. So I just kind of like educating myself on censorship and everything that was going down. So I've been following Tim Poole a lot. But I don't like to get into politics publicly just because I'm like an idiot. And I don't know what I'm talking about.
Interesting. Plenty of idiots talking about politics. And it's like he's turning up for something right? Like, you can tell the the whirlwind of publicity around that. JACK Dorsey and Joe Rogan interview and you can definitely filters in it seems like a thick skin kind of dude, Joe Rogan pretty much as a silverback gorilla in my head. Yeah, you know, big stronger, it, but you can see, I reckon there was it rattles? Yeah, we're, yeah, we're all we're all human. But no, a little baby, you can tell that you are rattled. Just from coming out of that. So imagine opening the mic everyday talking about serious shit.
Could you imagine? So? Dave? Ella, we're looking at this year starting to do live streams for all the videos. Dude, how do you think you would have gone doing ground up live? And how would that how would it change the content? Do you think
I like live because then it pre filters yourself. in a way that's probably good. Like to not say something stupid, that's going to get you in trouble. But then also knowing that Okay, I'm done with this. Once we like that, for me, the best part about it is like you record it, and then you upload it. And then you're done, which is coming close to what you guys do, you don't do editing. So I the problem with me shooting and editing and doing everything is that I'm a perfectionist, and I would bring it in. And even though I didn't plan on making any edits, I'm like, Oh, well, I'll take out that. And I'll take out that awkward pause and I'll take out this and then you just end up working on it for way longer than you'd expect. Yeah, I do. And I think what's great about like Joe Rogan's to like doing a live stream, is that even when you're doing interviews, everybody knows it. And it's like, even if somebody didn't sign a release form, it doesn't matter. Because the thing was released, yes.
Made and it was put out there. And sometimes it's like, well, what if you have a weird or awkward interview? And then the person is like, I don't want it to go out anymore? Which, fair enough? I mean, if somebody did that, if I did an interview with somebody, do you lose me? Or
based on that? Did you have anyone say, Hey, can we not publish this interview?
No, I but I there have been a couple. One was specifically where I was like, I shouldn't post this. And I was like,
screw it. I'll post it. Yeah. And I'm glad I did. I'm glad I put it out there. I think it was a learning lesson for me going into the episode, which I won't mention which one it was. But it was just like, being in a conversation with somebody who you do not see eye to eye with. And I'm not confrontational. But I also but I'm like, I have a service to my audience to not bullshit. And I think that's, that's in part actually why I wanted to change the podcast to is because there's too much bullshit online. There's too much fake self help gurus and people who are just being phony influencers. And I just wanted to be my to be myself. And sometimes I find myself in conversations with people where I'm just being polite, or I'm being nice, or it's just a little bit boring. And I'm like, I'd rather just be able to have conversations like the one we're having right now, now where you can kind of drop your card a little bit. And you can go deeper into topics and then you otherwise could, if it's just somebody you're meeting for the first time,
so you gotta be editing you podcast.
Well, you know, the plan.
So the plan is to actually link them pretty closely to my YouTube videos. So similar to what we did today. It's like talking about burnout, and maybe exploring that further, but also just talking about random stuff. It would be Hey, the video this is the video that we covered this week or the topic. And then I would people would also know at the end of the video on YouTube, I'd say you know, leave a comment and we'll talk we'll like bring our favorite comments into the podcast. So then that way I can we can maybe answer people's questions on the podcast, discuss the topic further. Understand that I make a video eight minutes about something. Obviously, you can't cover every single category. Obviously, it's very edited and thought out. But maybe we can just have this be like an informal amendment or an additional an add on to the videos to talk about these ideas a little bit further.
Thinking doing a segment, you could talk about the comments that come up in your videos, but you're like yours are so good, like people are so nice about your videos, I was watching a YouTuber, Ben Brown, who had a bit of a breakdown or maybe a breakthrough, depending I'm sure.
Yeah. But he was like a daily blogger before it was kind of cool. He was a big fan of his. But then he broke his elbow and sort of had this life changing experience. And
the weird thing is that it was breaking the elbow and then all of a sudden he's like, we're in these quirky sunglasses. changed his whole
dude, he's comments section savvy,
or people are just I think part of it is because he's, he's had a complete transformation and who he is. Yeah. And so people are sort of like, Hey, man, I loved you so much. And you've really helped me. And I just wanted to say my piece before I unsubscribe,
I actually read that exact comment. He's a dude who's who's openly said he's burnt out. Yeah. And he was posting a video every day. And they were edited and filmed nicely. But it's interesting, like the the shift from being burnt out to it's almost like you build this persona, or you build a character that people are relying on. Decided breaks, like an elbow does it?
Yeah, exactly. The whole personality was sitting.
Last. He's funny, but he's a lot more serious. Very serious.
What do you think? Yeah,
I mean, but who knows? Maybe like the guy maybe it wasn't the elbow. Maybe it was just, he wasn't being himself on camera. And I think sometimes people fall into that trap where they find something that works. I mean, people put on a personality all the time on camera. I think it's something that people have trouble overcoming every there's that difficulty even for me, like early videos you look at it's a little bit more contrived. It's a little bit more Hey, everybody what's
going on? Welcome to my video. What's up, guys? What's up guys?
And then people do that. stand up comedian struggle with that, I mean, obviously, stand up 99% of its scripted, but the whole goal is to be yourself on stage, or at least give the impression that you're being yourself.
And I think that's probably something that's that's really difficult
for people to do, especially if they're facing burnout. You're like, I can't even put on a fake face anymore. Yeah,
I saw your video where you took you dead to the steak restaurant.
Generous for taking us off your hands of knots. Actually, watch. I watched it recently. It's great. But you can tell like now knowing you, you're, you're you. But you have a level of confidence now that is complimentary to your personality. Whereas I think maybe some people's confidence isn't complimentary to the personality. So when you meet them, they're like, then they're like,
Hey, bro, like, that's like comedians, that you would say, like, especially working radio, you I would say them in studio, you know, behind the microphone, and then you'll see him afterwards.
I think maybe in the olden days, maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, before YouTube. And before it was accessible to be just posting constantly in the streams, you know, we're coming through from everywhere, maybe it was more accepted them because now there's transparency between, like platforms, you know, you can check what you're doing, I think you get a real good sense of a human. So it's harder to be the confidence. And in concurrent with that personality, it's not, like show business,
right? It's like a you in show business.
I think, you know, like in Hollywood.
You know, the one thing that I don't think a lot of people do is you need to shape the content, the way you tell a story to your personality, and not the other way around. So a lot of people obviously see templates from Tony Robbins to Gary vein, or Chuck to Casey nice that and they say, I have to recreate what they're doing, because maybe that's why they got successful. Or maybe that's the only template that I've seen. And I find it to be interesting. But then if you look at people like Mango Street, great YouTubers, they're introverted. They're more quiet. But then they tell stories in a different way. They don't just like turn on the camera and just start talking. They're very thoughtful about how they tell a story. They do a lot of voiceovers and, and B roll. Sometimes they don't even show themselves on camera. And like maybe you could even see that for a lot of gamers and other people who maybe don't show themselves on camera. Like if you're shy, or your personality isn't as loud. There's ways that you can shape the content to make it make sense.
Do you have any towels that you're about to you heading towards? Either burnout? Or you struggling? What is it for you? What do you do when he's falling towards hitting his elbow? He's like,
Yeah, well, I could say that I was
heading towards burnout at the end of last year. It was I mean,
because sometimes it's
not as easy as I I've got a documentary to make, or I've got a book to write. And this is the deadline, because for me it was I want to be an original content creator online, I want to make a living making original videos, and a Okay, what's the salary? When do you actually slow down? And then be? Am I going to make it like this? Is this actually going to work? So it was, you know, I worked at it for two years, it was about a year and a few months, and maybe like 15 months into when I started that things started to build momentum. And then you it's that like, that's how long I was sprinting for it. And like,
not all out like I wasn't, it wasn't working every single weekend, 20 hours a day getting no sleep, I still had quite a bit of balance, but like the edges started to blur, and I was working more weekends and even after I did start to make an income from it. I'm like, why am I still grinding? Why am I still you know, I haven't I'm making enough money. Now. Why am I still working on Sundays every single weekend all these nights? Why am I maybe giving up the gym this month or going to the gym much less than I would have. So that was just a moment where I was like, and then heading into like a vacation where I had to take a couple weeks off to be in Australia. And I'm like, how do I possibly take a break and take time off if I'm just non stop working. And I'm always feeling like I'm behind. So then it meant just taking a week off. which shouldn't be that crazy. But like, I mean, for people who are like creating content online, you'll oftentimes create three to four videos to last you when you're on a break, when you're taking like a vacation. So then you would have to work like three, four times as hard. That's when you end up putting in all these crazy hours. you're leaning
out you're heading to the sprint. If you didn't have a holiday in that week, it probably would have come completely to burn out territory, right?
Yeah, and I think it was the video was just an excuse. I was like, oh, here's a simple video I can make you like about something I'm going through right now. And then I actually for whatever crazy reason I didn't think I was going to take a break after I made that video. And then people in the comments were like, oh, enjoy the break. Matt will see you soon. And I'm like what?
The next week off and then I came back and then everything was fine. Dude, I just wanted to I haven't
spoken to you. I wanted to get an update on how your sunburn was from the Australian someone.
Do I still have
You guys can Can you see my? Yeah,
yeah, it's still kind of
it's gone to.
But I you know, it's still there. I think my sister saw it the other day. And she's like, what the hell like how are you still? How do you still have a farmer stamp? Yeah, but
yeah, you guys screwed me.
I didn't know we're going to the beach. I
nearly lost my nice.
Yeah. And you're like, oh, let's do another one outside.
Earlier this week in Melbourne, it was that same San you could just feels like you've had you've a level. Yeah, it's that. Well, great to hear that. You said,
yeah, we feel better.
When you were making the leap to doing the YouTube thing full time and doing original content? What did you actually change from a personal finance point of view? Did you all of a sudden start feeling guilty buying certain things or getting coffee? or doing any of that? Or did everything stay the same for you? Because of Patreon? No as he before even Patreon when you're like, hey, Matt, I know I'm not making really any money yet. And I'm like spending money. Did you feel the need to make sacrifices?
Um, I think I had already done that when I was paying off my debt. Yeah. And for me, like I don't have that many expenses. I don't spend a lot of money like the I mean, the biggest things that really led me to Paul, because we're obviously camera gear, and it was easy for me to get coffee and lunch, all those things. Especially especially as I started to move and gain momentum, but buying new cameras, new audio mix all this other stuff. It was harder for me to justify and I waited longer in between those purchases. When I did start to make an income then it was like Okay, great. Now I can actually invest in some new gear and then get the things that I need as my content was changing. But yeah, I try not to be too guilty about purchases and I had built up a lot of runway so I do not take
risks. Like I had plenty of money that I felt confident I knew nap you know was making an income. And she's not the best saver in the world. But
I knew between the two of us we would we would be okay. I feel
like in Australia, or maybe it's just me, but we spend way more money on eating out.
Food wise. Melvin especially is a real at
a cafe. cafe culture, like is that all smashed
ever we're spinning $19 on a piece of bread, some avocado. It's fucking ridiculous, outrageous.
So is that not something like when I was working from home, Uber Eats and just sort of come to town. And so I found this paleo waffles, which they weren't fucking really healthy at all that apes and maple syrup it up. That was sort of became my lunch. And so I'd get them delivered. A you do this or you?
Yeah, I think my biggest expenses lunch. And a lot of times I'll get you pulled away for lunch, but on my way to the gym or on my way home from the gym as just like a good source of sustenance and helps to fuel my workouts. And that's like, you know, 12 bucks, maybe three to four days a week. And I started doing that when I started to like make pretty good money as a freelancer. And it would just be well listen, I'm like busting my ass right now I don't have time to like go shopping or or, you know, go out and get a lunch or make lunch. So or I haven't had time to go out and get lunch, but I just don't have time to like, make it myself. So I would just do that I would just grab something. And then I would be like, it's honestly with the kind of money I was making as a freelancer. And once you make like a good income, it's just, you're just trading your time. Yeah, instead of taking the time to do it. I have the money for it. I might as well. And it's one of those things I'm willing to invest in. I think it's a generation.
I think our parents would look at us. Yeah, really. My dad was telling me that back in the day to get Chinese takeaway you had to take like a pair apart down to the Chinese shop. Chinese restaurant, fill it up with the food. And he's
mentioning la everyone's actually probably doing that at Whole Foods taking in their own bloody, you know,
vegan? Yeah, like a to go container. Yeah.
How much are you eating at Whole Foods? Because that Josh and I've talked about it a bit. I think there's some novelty in for Australians going over there. Because it's, it's next level, we don't have the population to have something like that survived. We've got one place in Sydney that's similar, but that print quality food isn't actually any good.
Yeah, and I so oftentimes, I will get
breakfast at Whole Foods, which like just a buffet,
I used to try to avoid it. And just because I think that it's there's a potential high chance for germs to be spread that way. And like some people just animal you know, to risk
a villa. You said that you helped me know, the whole foods too risky. Hey, I thought you haven't met Mr. 97. It will get him on the show. He was coming coming. We got a question. Mr. 97? No, actually, what is? What is your experience been like just growing, growing YouTube and your podcast and stuff.
It has been really great. It's been awesome. It's been, you know, it's one of those things that I didn't think I wasn't sure if it was possible. I knew what all the advice people were giving me like, just keep doing and keep putting in the work, change it up when things aren't working. And then when things started to stick, it was like a little bit scary, a little bit terrifying. But at the same times, at the same time, I felt like I saw the potential and I saw where it could go and where I could take it. So I just and and but at the end of the day, like I'm not doing anything different than when I originally started. It's just making films and making them as good as they possibly can be. And I think that when you grow to a certain level, it's it's a little bit easier to get guests on. It's easier to get interviews with people who you may find interesting that you wouldn't have been able to get to before. But at the end of the day, you're you're doing the same thing. You're making videos, you're making films, so you just met Mr. 97. He does all of our uploading does all the show notes all that so I think Did you ever get to a point of using anyone externally to do the editing? I feel like he gave it a crack for the ground. Oh, yeah, I hired Caleb logic who actually you just came out? Did you see switch pod?
Yes. It's like the the the better gorilla pod it's like the New Age fucking thing.
Yeah, it's like it's a you know, the one thing that doesn't have is it doesn't have this like flexibility option to wrap it around Paul's, but it's very sturdy, it's magnetic isn't going to break or bend and you can use it very easy for flogging. It's a lot thinner and a lot lighter. But um, so I met Caleb, he was on my podcast, he actually just released that Kickstarter campaign for the switch pod, which is awesome. It was really successful. And Peter McKinnon did a review of it that said like, like, is this going to kill this is gonna kill the gorilla pod or something, which is just crazy. And they end up getting I think 300,000 on their Kickstarter, which was awesome. But I'm actually hired him to help me do my podcast editing.
I had them do like four or five episodes. And then I was like, I don't think I want to do video anymore. I think it was like part of that having the step back not doing it anymore. And just thinking about, like, all the effort that I was putting into it. And there's something that I get out of like this the editing and I really like creating something from beginning to end. And but at the end of day, I was like, I don't think I want to I don't I don't know if I want to keep up with this video thing. Or at the very least, I want to explore my options a bit. And you know, I don't want to quit the podcast but then what if I just made it as fun as possible and as easy as possible to make
once last question I'm busting good to go the toilet.
I've got one other one too. Okay, quick.
What do you wanna go first?
minds about chip online. If
If AAA came to you and said, Yeah, I know you don't do advertising, but they're like, Look, Matt, if once a month in a video, you can just include a single shot of use of eating chicken like don't even have the branding to have to mention it. And we're going to give you a $500 gift card the month to be your local Poli. Do you think that is not that is not enough money? Let's
change the stakes. Yeah,
so the interest of
unlimited like food just get an unlimited car?
Yeah, wouldn't Yeah, with that with that.
Now, because I don't you know, I don't it doesn't hurt me to buy AAA. You know what I mean? I'm never desperate for $12. So even over the course of a year, it doesn't actually make a difference. Yeah. So the money will give you a million dollars for the year.
That then you like, but you kind of think about it because you're like,
Oh shit, you could do a lot of good with money. Yeah, and technically
you could take that money and you could give it to a charity.
What about there's no expectation of Nepal? I said hey, Matt, we just love you content. We just want to give you this $500 I felt like $500 and how much fucking AAA did
he hasn't got fucking money he's got your spotlight.
I apparently don't have fucking money cuz I'm like a million dollars. Maybe Josh
actually used to get a AAA. They just sent him a car. They have this like influencer card or something where you just it's a free burrito every day. Oh, yeah. Every day, and he got it. And then that was when we were like shooting the documentary. And like they didn't even they didn't ask him to do anything. They just said hey, here we saw that you like mentioned AAA and some tweets thing they gave
us actually what else? What else? Michael? Yeah. Do we have to put the famous Matt developed lots on the footage of you for our podcast.
Oh my God, that's a great question. I didn't shoot
it with the same lighting is on naturally lit. He's
gonna show righteous.
Yeah, it's just gonna be weird, though. The fact that we're, we're like, for the majority of it. We're looking underneath the camera.
It's all this is minimum viable product was
another cheapo light tip would be if you ever get double made. He loves spotlight.
If you ever get double Yeah, all the time.
What you do is don't tell them double meet up front. So I want Barbie cola or whatever they put it in and then say actually, can I make that double mate because what they've done is you've anchored thank you the amount they have to fucking double that shit. Because I swear when I've asked for double previously, you're getting about half extra. So that's a little tip at a time.
Yeah, you know what it is is very much dependent on the server. I've had good servers and I've had bad servers. I had once there was you know Rebel Wilson Yeah,
she's Australian. Yeah.
Yeah, she came into Chipotle a while
she was working mind the bar.
Yeah, hot in Hollywood, bro.
Whatever media company that was. She was a she was
like getting into a mindset for a gig now but when she was like two people in front of me, the place shut down. And people are just weird around celebrities like everybody starts like bumping into each other like waka Moly was forgot in people were just like throwing mild when it was supposed to be hot. And I was just like, Guys, can you get it together? And then when she leaves at the door every was it
was ever ever listen. You guys just see it because it's a con Can you relax? Can you
and I was just offended because they didn't know who I am.
Well, nobody's ever noticed me and
I deal bro. I'm sure that
you know it. Yeah, yeah, we'll see. We'll see. All right,
thank you for coming on. This is spur of the moment now along podcast Yeah.
All right. Do you get with the AAA or don't you get
to get Ross what's what's what is your just to go through the line what is if you're doing it, you
give it to you. I'll give it to you. So I before the sugar. I would do the actual burritos. I mean, and not that there's a lot of sugar in a rap but it was I kind of started to cut out carbs as well. So or at least kind of processed carbs. So what I will do is I'll get a bowl, usually to stay and then I'll get white rice. No beans,
double steak, gorgeous steak.
And I actually I usually vary between medium usually medium salsa, sometimes I go with the hot or just a little bit of hot Just give me a little bit of extra and then I will do guacamole sometimes lettuce I kind of mix it up a little bit but that's that's a just sometimes a little bit of cheese. feeling
okay. he snuck in another food Dorito doesn't even his own. I met Dave Ellis food. I appreciate
Dave Hello. Hi the daily talk show.com if you want to send us an email, this is on you. If you're listening to this record, we record every episode is a video. It's on our YouTube channel. And that's where Dave Ellis spends his time on his YouTube channel but go and watch his latest video about burning out I'm sure if he turned if we typed in burn out into YouTube. I recommend your video would be
checking someone in a Holden Commodore doing
well, I'll do the Australia one because
it's probably Yeah, I do incognito mode to
burn out and out.
Yeah, it is number one for Mr. 97.
I got number two number one in Australia number one. I got number two in Australia. Very good. That's a great result.
Yeah, all the other ones are like racecar drivers.
legit legit burnouts. as Joe said,
I want to say yeah, the motor community
is saying like, man, I was looking for something else and this popped into my recommendation and I'm realizing that I'm actually
changing their life.
Absolutely. Today talk show Dave Allah Have a good one. Thanks.
See ya. See you later.