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It's the daily Talk Show Episode 597 guys what's going

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on? Welcome back Marquis jacket. Thank you for

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having me. I'm not gonna be around my hand. I can't

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she can't Clap.

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Clap much to be honest. But I'll cheesy jakka Thanks

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Cheers. Cheers.

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Lovely stomping ground Brewing Co be

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my log

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jack. Are you a big water drinker?

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Yeah. Oh at work I am. cuz I've got the routine down. I've got a bottle next to me. And I kept feeling it. That's good on the weekend though. goes out the window.

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Yeah, actually goes against it. He hates it. So on the way Kenny heights. Yeah. Doesn't

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mean water is it's such an easy thing to do, but so hard.

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It needs to be part of a routine I think. Otherwise you just forget. And then you take a piece at the end of the day. Not fact that's it. Hello.

0:53
It's like butter.

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You've never met a guy more descriptive about he's little Lack of Josh Janssen h facking Nicola fluid yeah

1:09
I felt like it was the my spinal fluid Yeah. avi and it's to the point where it's like the bit that's jelly in between it looks like they've just gone dry what you're explaining

1:24
epi journal so never true. Have you seen the

1:28
liquid? No I didn't because it's a big fucking needle and so

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you're talking from experience I'm talking from watching someone have it. The liquid is like the thing you're describing in a bag and it drips down Did you don't remember declare having to be Drew. She didn't have one up here.

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So it fades it like in through a drink.

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I thought it was an injection. It's a bag of liquid dropping down and it's got you basically on your tummy or on your side and they've fed this thing into your spine into the area. Yeah, my missus is or drops down and pushes the liquid into you.

2:08
Wherever I think it'd be different. The different pregnant guy so I think that for me I'm not like going through birth to my bit so it was just like, just straight away they put it in injection Yeah. Where do you have it? where or when? No No Where did they put it? They put it in my back your spine and so they I heard it was

2:28
definitely wanted to know, exact

2:33
sounded like they know they went to a sports doctor. He was sort of saying I don't think like before I had the MRI. I think he was a little bit sceptical. Yeah, he's like I you should be okay. Just go to get this MRI done blah, blah, blah. This is a guy who was like very laissez faire about the whole thing. Then I came back and he was like, yeah, that's fucked up. And he's like 80% chance you will need surgery within the next Three months oh shit and so they gave me the epi journal and then I was like, I lost like 15 kilos because I'm like, I'd much prefer before doing any of the surgery. How about actually just be healthy wise? Yeah, you're scared.

3:11
So when you had the job Did you lose feeling from your legs down? Oh,

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no. Yeah, no,

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that's a fair question now, but not

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obviously just a lower dose,

3:22
but it's a core core design, like injection different cortisol. Benson it's still in it called an epi journal. What is an epidural? sabs I think an epidural is an injection into the spine.

3:35
I thought every juror was a substance that was like

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an epi jurors spinal procedure that delivers anaesthetic or pain killing drugs to nerves that convey pain, what would they put into

3:47
Amy's back and so that's what happens only a prank killer type of thing. And so for me, it's like what happens if you take a Voltaren What's that? Yeah, it's like an anti inflammatory thing. That's works overtime.

4:00
ignition for tennis elbows in like not get what you're talking about. I'm cortisone injections used to have always good flatus as a kid Michael

4:10
Yeah. In a medical fact and they use

4:13
Yeah. Yeah. Which

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I mean, I don't know how much that that was sort of that's what it was cold but no how much it was like affecting me.

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That's a big thing. What is it? It's a big thing. Darren yuckiness from core advantage if you have always good flatus and you need help. He has an online programme and put it in the link show notes. You can pay for it. He's basically helps people get out of it and and start reforming.

4:44
Yeah, see, I didn't go to that level. I just

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didn't have the programme on my way. Well,

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I just stopped talking about it. And it just

5:00
Sounds like I've got haemorrhoids I know you did yeah it's a very it's an interesting point the whole life just forget about it I'll fix that's what how I've treated my ankle because I rolled my ankle walk

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good approach if it wasn't ever that bad and it was healing itself as you go the problem with all these good flatus is it can be really bad

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What does it what is always good slot us Can

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you look up Can you find dirhams online

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background describe it yeah got it had it was still potentially have it but you just ignoring it?

5:29
No it was like in the front of your name it was just like a discomfort and it had a bit of a bold like you're something

5:37
maybe a bold touched my feeling in a bad I remember it when we were kids It was like your knees looking funny bro. My friend had that. It funny looking

5:50
ocelots like like he had was good. He had the bowl like a little barn so yeah type of thing. We miss the saves.

5:58
Yeah, yeah, Shannon is course the secret to curing all's good schlatter disease panel, what is it? What is the disease? It's the common cause of knee pain in growing adolescence. It's an inflammation of the area just below the knee where the tendon from the kneecap attaches to the shinbone.

6:19
Oh, yeah. Do you remember Growing Pains? Do you remember waking up like with furious pain and they're at your bones and your legs? Did you have that? Um,

6:28
I don't really remember them. It's top of mind because I just watched Pete Shepards TED Talk. Yeah. He talks about he talks a lot about that

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growing pains and he does a bit of condensed he say that three step does the two step

6:40
we sit with Harry happy Harry the next day. And a guy a guy who was high on drugs with in front of his going Oh, and then he said, Ah, he's doing pizza Tuesday. It was actually quite topical

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fact. That's funny. So put that in the show notes. Durham's young just if you're a young, adolescent battling,

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or sliders,

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I like flatus says Osgoode schlatter disease.

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very slightly says if you've got to be plural

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Yay, and Jacko, you wanted to catch up with us, we. We said, Yeah, that'd be great. And then you got here and we said, let's do a podcast and said, and talk about on the podcast, whatever you wanted to talk about. So what do you want to talk about?

7:29
financial trouble.

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actually said the opposite. He said he's

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going pretty well.

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I know Josh was dealing with 1010 mil haemorrhoids.

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Now he's telling me some stocks he's got have done well, and then I told him about how to stop just a stock you know, I have to say if you don't want to buy after pay, he invested early days of after

7:52
Yeah, I've invested in after paid to. The joke is that you just bought stuff on all right. Yeah

8:01
Then I told him about how our friend means your friend to conspiracy Jimmy bought five chairs online computer chairs for one bitcoin. Those bitcoins were worth 18 grand at one point so we paid 18 grand for five

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computers, his brother, it's so it's so far down that Bitcoin now anyway, I mean still they still probably worth what seven girls gonna say three and a half

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thousand 12 $12,000 check,

8:29
I was thinking of

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this new currency that were being thrown out anyway, you've already been thinking about what's going

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on so well when. So studying podcast, I'm pumped. So I've obviously been thinking about for a while you've had a couple of cracks at me When am I going to start it and I've been on. So I've just been noting things down trying to get my position on what it is that I want to do. So I said to you and at some stage Down with you guys and just do a bit of brainstorming get a bit of feedback, feedbacks. Yeah, good thing for moving through developing something. And then we're here and I

9:11
welcome Yeah. tonnes of feedback all right so first I've heard your podcast the first episode that every not released it.

9:19
No, I'm not gonna do that yet. I'm just going to bank a few work and if if it's something I want to keep doing before Yeah.

9:26
I mean, this is how will you with feedback when So Mark, he was an industrial designer. You are unique. Yeah, design be like 3d deal. To be honest. He did the same course industrial design. You didn't do a thesis? No, you were a dropout.

9:42
I actually was and then I went back. This is very, this is a bit of a side thing. But then I went back and so I dropped out after two and a half years. And then I was working. And so I went back and I was like, okay, I've just got to convince lecturers to give me some credits for some subjects. It's probably one of the best things I've ever done. I went back

10:03
to school to go to work out and

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went back up, got spoke to a couple of lecturers, I end up getting given three subjects at a four. And then they're like, you just got to do one and I'll leave you degree.

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What did you do? How many years have you done two? I've done two and a half,

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two. And then he went into a job that was specific to industry.

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So it's just what is it cold

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industry something

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Yeah, industry credit. Yeah, like barefoot, barefoot investors, Danny's Council, financial counselling was to help people in the council people. But he got a whole bunch of it because he's got so much experience on the field and you just got to get the back end credits. And so you you had one subject or something.

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Four subjects I had to do one right, which

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I can't remember. I was pretty disengaged at that point.

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That may matter you've ever had to do like a fact all of his credits with these college stuff ended up doing like a fitness Like just lift like weightlifting module to get the points which was outrageous because he's like a filmmaker was like,

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actually because I was still working I actually paid some people to do some of the stuff for me.

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I mean, do you think fibre like sorry not five like up work and shit or five is not good enough for you? Definitely to low price point shity shity shity PayPal she goes on it's like paying people online like you've got a bad

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rap fibre based on the name.

11:30
I mean if you go to Tommy jacket, calm the logo is from fibre. It's pretty basic.

11:35
But it's not like is it started out as being the concept being give us

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give us up and then they started off saying okay, yeah $5 for this and then it's like are you want to quickly that's an extra $50 Yeah.

11:49
20 did you tell Jules Lund about 535 George line tell you told him about it.

11:55
Josie was a big fan of five.

11:57
Yeah, so this guy,

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I waited now waited him this is before I started at faith angels. And I think I just gone for it like just put in. I didn't put now I must say, yeah, before the intro, I knew I was going to have an interview with him and I just said, tweet and said, Hey, I think you'll love this. And then he'd already organised like a Simpsons character. churro something of himself. Yeah, I

12:22
like doing random stuff. But what else can I do? I'm Father, just just give them a father.

12:27
He had some disposable income. Right? He

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could probably afford more than I thought

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he had. And so

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so feedback. So yeah,

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you need to be feedback or woman.

12:42
Yeah. Do you even get feedback at uni? No,

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not I mean, you died. Yeah, you're doing you're dying. I mean, feedback is an interesting thing, because people are actually funnily enough reading an article just the other day back in the days in a design, business feedback is often lacking. But it's one of the most important parts of the design process. But, but yeah, like it at uni, you're often just kind of hazy grade, you know, limited feedback you could have done better you know that that's that's generally my feedback.

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top seven or

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what colour? I don't know. What are you

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thinking page? Seven to page? Yeah. Good. clear it up gone.

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So yeah, so anyway What was your question? The second one so so when it gets to the workplace Do you think not receiving feedback that much within a unique context? Does that make us not very good feedback takers but also givers feedbacks hard to give.

13:52
So yeah, so I just I just don't think it's, it's part of culturally part of what we do you know,

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what do you think what is It's had?

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Well because because it's hard to be critical of someone, often being critical of someone goes down a path of like it becoming personal, but that's what it shouldn't be that it should just be a criticism or an analysis of the work, you know, irrespective of who's done it. And so then something like design or anything creative is subjective. Designs always hard, like designers are traditionally very touchy, because it's like you put everything you put yourself into it. anything creative, like you guys would know, like anything creative. You put a lot of yourself into it. And so when something when someone gives you feedback or criticises it, it can it can be a bit hard to take like I've spent years managing designers in terms of like knowing how to give feedback and how not to give feedback.

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And so what how do you give feedback then? It

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having an understanding of part of the process of how they've gotten to that outcome is really important. And people who haven't gone who haven't, don't have enough don't have an appreciation for design and the process that you go through to research and conceptualise and then idea it and then you know, refine those ideas and then land on one two or three ideas and then work those it you know, and so when someone comes in and goes, you know, like, have you thought about doing it this way, like you have just done done so much like process? Like I've I was

15:33
a decision map type of thing or like a user story I how do you actually get to, and can you deconstruct someone's process, like from a design perspective, say if you're like building the helmet, for instance, as an example, you've got, okay, it needs to be able, it needs to be functional in regards that needs to protect for like, impact

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another just went for

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When it's gonna look good, so you have the impact thing. And then you have the it could be performance. So like wind going it and what's that called? aerodynamics? Is that like how you doing it?

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So, I

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mean, that's going back a number of years with the helmet design stuff.

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That that that's

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like Johnny, who is the first person that I had on the party with here.

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He

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threw working for him I, I build up a good sort of, because he's always he's very creative. He's always got an opinion. He's, he's very intuitive. So he would often you know, I'd be sitting there literally carving this helmet out of clay. And he and I'd spend a day on this fucking tiny little detail and hate to come in and just naturally love what was going on. And just want to get involved in the most enthusiastic person he will make. And so he would sit down and then he'd start having a little fun play around with it and you'd be sitting there going. Okay,

17:12
this is fun. And you can undo Clark, county sequence premiere Friday. Why? Why qlae effect says that in the mediaeval times, why why not CAD or do people still use clay?

17:24
So at that time, Clay, like I, I took, I've never done it before. And then I took the approach of how do they do? How do they design cars, which is a very complex surface complex surface object, which means is a lot of angles going on on there's a lot of, you know, you've got to join this panel in this panel, and, you know, so I was like, that's where I'm starting. I want to start with model making clay,

17:53
that sort of thing. Did you do the helmet to sky Oh,

17:57
yeah, yeah. So I

17:58
so I got into cars to scale up Obviously, yeah, that who clay card?

18:03
Co Really?

18:04
Heavy? Of course I do. I'm sorry Geez, I'm fucking stupid sometimes. We just a whole car made out of clay. Yeah, that's cool. Hello obviously just I mean yeah,

18:16
cool fact cool fact we just drop in one cool fact that we heard this week about the machines that bore tunnels for train systems or new underground tunnels because they can't get the factor out. They spend millions of dollars on the piece of machinery. They send it down and press it and then goes, doesn't come out doesn't come out so they they dumped the really expensive piece of machinery. They bore it to somewhere they bore it down somewhere.

18:46
Oh because they can't then get it back out man. They can't get

18:50
it's not a reverse. So they spend millions of dollars boring a tunnel and hang on. Isn't that

18:53
the idea of a tunnel goes in and then at

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tonight. I do not set my drive

19:01
into a tunnel and gotten to the end gone.

19:08
Let's look into this. We could have just got the drive is there.

19:15
Yeah. That's how you Jason if you're listening to this and can confirm what

19:21
I mean it's one of those things you hear about someone at Chads saw somebody

19:25
the wallet thing inside and so the clay in the helmet so you may so so yeah so so jayven by the clay from you just went to a crafts place

19:36
online I think. Yeah, right. We come back on number of years but yeah, online I bought it. I did a lot of research around the best thing you got and then I got like I had a like a head form. So it replicates a standard or medium sized head and I had that cut out of like CNC cut out of the material that was almost like a plastic material. And then I like to climb up on top That it would allow me to get the thicknesses, right and I could drop you know, a ruler into it or drop it, whatever, get all the thicknesses right and play around with the, with the detail. Anyway, you then take that clay form and you go any 3d scanner. So then that gives you a digital file. And then I took that digital file which was just well you can just imagine a file that's like as messy as a clay model. And then you take and then I took that and sat down with like a automotive designer, and he use AutoCAD or alias to stitching and design all the surfaces and it converted the file from something that was like really messy to something that was really clean and you can create a tool out of it.

20:48
And say how how close was the thing that you did with the client into the final product?

20:55
I mean, it really close like it was exactly what what I had in college. was what I ended up on salted

21:02
in the Tour de France. Did Mac do it right there that's a fun fact. Yeah you know when you find out about your brother and you bet brag about

21:11
it's a good one I hope he does this on the podcast is that one one can of stopping granny

21:19
yeah now you got

21:22
the boring machines if the tunnels big enough they send one in from each end and so then they made in the middle and then they dig off to the side and then ditch them there but if the tunnel is small enough it'll just go right through

21:34
yeah I know make sense logic if you going through a mountain and you can get weight could get outlets

21:42
so why they doing it on a the

21:44
will be good for efficiency right if you having to?

21:47
Yeah, oh yeah.

21:52
You do six months both sides and you've got a tunnel in six months.

21:55
Because I only got like less than a minute per hour this low on a style.

22:00
slower than a smile. That's good fact. Yeah.

22:02
But faster than that. So feedback flies. Have you ever think about feedback? Early days? Is it worth approaching feedback and having the understanding that it's painful, and that's what you have to actually put up with. So it's like, it's, it's, you haven't done the work yet to work out what feedback and the feeling you get from having feedback is actually sensical or you shouldn't listen to. So Jocelyn, you seeking me a lot of feedback on my videos. I felt Yak about us. But I acknowledged it like in the time I was just like, Oh, this feels guy but this feels horrible. But Jesus I got and then and then I started at the other side. When my videos got better. I was like, fuck this guy.

22:54
Now respect. I have respect for whoever's getting feedback, but

22:58
he actually gave me great feedback. And I was like holy shit when you see someone's feedback implemented, even when it feels yaak. But it makes it a better video. So it cuts out a minute of a video, two minute video and you're like, I've got the same video. And I didn't want to do the things he was telling me, but I did them and now they and so then you like, you downloaded his system in some ways to go. I see what he's meaning by that

23:23
feedback. There's people who can give feedback. And then people who just shouldn't

23:27
was trusted feedback. And then there's fuckwits on YouTube.

23:30
But also, I think, like context, like today understand who the audience is. And like, I think that you can work out whether feedback is good or bad, based on how much context the people have or what they're bringing to it, right. So it's like, okay, so for instance, cut it cutting it down, like using the example cutting a minute off. That is using a specific school around, we need to get to things quicker, and the it like it's a web video, it's that sort of style. But there's also different styles required different tool tool sets. And so sometimes you see people's blind spots where if they've been using a hammer their whole life, and then you're creating something that needs a drill, they will probably suggest a hammer and at that point you need to consider that

24:25
the old hammer and drill gets you good. That's why you kind of have your your safe people around you that you are seeking feedback form hopefully, external feedback outside of the safe people. I just why they give me your feedback in the first place. Yeah. unsolicited feedback through YouTube. g comment like them this. We've had some of the stuff that we've had. Yeah. So did you have no idea about what we think about and it's like, it's, it's, it's so far from context, that it's just that at that time Just like just random feedback, just like throwing anything. Yeah, because I feel like they need to it's easy to give feedback than it is

25:08
to do the wall I think also it's it's, it's easy to say something and not to say something as well. And so for me, I wrote it reading their issue or their if they're thinking at that point, but also like you doing like relationship management, like if your mates doing something, and you know that something might not be right. I used to be like, I know you fuck it like you don't do it that way. I've done it. But then I'm like, it's that whole thing of you shouldn't like steal other people's problems from them. Like, they need to have that experience and go through that. Otherwise, they won't completely be able to connect the dots.

25:41
Can you also when you're not doing the work, and then you sort of invested in the project. There's, there's a chance it's like, it's, it's whatever, if you think it's not as great as you like whatever you put out, it could be shit You think it's good? Or like, I think there's just anything you do. It's like take 20% offered, and it's still probably have a okay standard. So then like your internal standard about the thing you're doing is actually way out of whack. Like, because there is people that will love it and the opposite. And so if you if you end up in the middle, it's like it's,

26:22
yeah, I mean, that's why Seth Godin is just like the ship. And so why aren't you shipping

26:27
it? So what's your

26:30
tie back to like the the podcasting so it's not so much feedback. What I was actually wanting to do with you guys was sort of what sit down and workshop where this is coming from, because I suppose the biggest challenge for me is, if I go into this, I don't have a good foundation of what am I What am I doing by by hosting this environment. There is a chance that it will kind of just fizzles out and you won't really have an outcome because mine is quite tired too. So it's cold. None of my business. So it's it's a play on you know, it's a business podcast about people. And I suppose what I what I've been working on just internally over the last couple of months is what is it that I'm actually doing here? Like, what am I actually what do I want out of people? Because, you know, I've asked a few people, you know, which of gonna do on next week or the week after

27:24
it what he's asking is studio time,

27:26
you've got the common set up.

27:31
We're pretty, we're pretty happy.

27:34
Not lot.

27:36
No, so so I so people, you ask a guest to come on, and they ask you another question. And then you like alpha, does that get you thinking about? Yeah, and that perspective?

27:46
Yeah. Yeah, I suppose it's like I need to make sure if I if I know that I'm going to host a space and host a conversation. I need to make sure that it's it's authentic and it's something that I find Interesting, you know, I like in you know that I've got it like, if the basis is like I'm interested in business in general what is it? How far off Do you off that path? Do you go because I don't you don't want to kind of just go in with a couple of questions with a couple of you know, strategies or questions and then ago or at all, there's nothing else to really know

28:23
what I think there is because I mean, for now business is so intertwined with life, what's your What are you doing outside of business? That is making you a higher performer, even businesses, that's

28:36
a its own style. So I guess I part of its like, it's the who's it for what's it for thing? And so obviously, you're, you're looking at it from an interview perspective, which makes sense, which is like, from a base level, you need to be interested in it. And then the secondary thing is like, okay for the audience, who is actually going to listen,

28:56
you have a sense of what the audience is going to get out of it like so for me Personally, it's it's a no brainer, like I want to expand my, my network I want to I enjoy conversations with people about what they're doing and how they do it good. I like talking about the connected, you know, all the things that are that are relatable to what I do and what they do and things that aren't on a on a sort of more foundational level, I'm sort of looking, looking sitting here and going, what's the next thing in my career, or my life or whatever that I want to, you know, maybe maybe it's time for a pivot? I don't know. So. So. podcasting is is a platform, which, you know, is obviously very achievable these days. And is that the right is, you know, is it the right platform? Or is it I don't know?

29:54
Yeah, I think that's like the tricky thing, especially nation. So like, I think what was created with the daily talk show with a lot, we've created a platform where it's us as a brand, talking about what we want to talk about having the people we want to have on and then almost sort of moulding it in over time, based on who we're picking and what we're talking about.

30:16
I also think that we can over intellectualise, the foundation or the structure of a creative project. So another like none of my business can be, you know, five personal questions may be related. Like you can just look at the structure of how you lay out an episode you can have somebody on an old friend Andrew melody he grew out with who's an old best, you know, he's a best mate. He's a business person he's in you know, non for profit sector, like there's so many varying things that you can have conversations about. And so that's where I I think you can

30:54
well, that serves Mikey, I guess, which makes sense. But I think the question that you're trying to work out maybe is, it's like What is the promise that you're making to the audience?

31:03
But doesn't have to be found in the first episode? The second episode, right? Like it, can it not be? This is a evolution 50 episodes in that I'm actually I'm giving it 50 episodes, and I'm going to test and learn, carve away the you know, the helmet like you're learning as you going. And so you take that creative process. And so you chip down all in on the first round. Because then it's like a higher chance of it not stacking up how you thought it was based on having all those chips on it being a certain way.

31:35
I feel like being able to define it in some sense of what where it sits for me, but also where it sits for potentially the listener also helps the guest Yeah, because, you know, like, I've asked three people and only one has responded, you know, and, you know, like, that's not a big deal. But that was an interesting exercise to go through to go there is a level of resistance there because one, you don't have a track record. They can't look at what you're about, and what you're going to watch Like people, you know, like they naturally like, Fuck, what am I? What do you want to know for me? What are you doing? What do you

32:06
and so I think like, if we look at us as an example, I think that we've created this promise around. We're showing up every day, which I think is part of it. But I think that we've used everything else around the format as our promise, rather than than the content. But if we think about anything that we listen that we watch, that we enjoy, they all have those promises. It's not like if you're watching an episode of your favourite t shirt, TV show, it doesn't like one day, be a comedy, or and the next be a drama. It's sort of like it has these commonalities, so that people know what they're getting every time.

32:48
So understand that the through line or the Yeah, tag line.

32:52
Yeah, I think it's it's the it's the, it definitely use the throw line. But I think thinking about it from a promise perspective, when something one listens. So they can be a bunch of things that can change. So for instance, you look at like Casey nice that, you know, like the YouTuber. Think about, like, what he's promised was that his promise was a daily vlog in New York City. And then his audience definitely changed when he started to change those promises and say, Okay, I'm going to do this type of video now or, or that one. And so I think early on, I don't think we did it in a massive way. But I think that for the most part, that's what people need is that specific thing, where it's like, for just a specific format that can be repeatable over a bunch of

33:39
and I know what you're saying, TJ is, you find that like, you find your format.

33:44
Yeah. Because you're saying who is that for though? For the audience or for yourself?

33:51
So I think that it's, it's about the audience, but I also think that it's a part of reconciling as well. Right. So I think that even though we didn't come to the show with some things sorted, I think that we had like a very sort of clear vision on these other elements. And so I think that potentially for us, it was very much around audience first around, like how in building that community and audience and like, because we didn't even have guests for the first 50 it wasn't even like a consideration around that networking stuff. And so I think that as podcasting is getting bigger and more people are doing it, it's definitely seen as an opportunity of like, as you said, growing the network, self development, all of these things, and by being able to then dial it in from that audience promise perspective. I think it then will. I think looking at as a season probably makes sense, even though we didn't do seasons, I think saying Okay, I'm going to do a 12 episode season. I am and the the promise stays the same for those 12 episodes. Yeah, you got very specific and clear in that. And that's where the iteration comes in. Because after the season two, you might say, I'm moving a little bit over this way.

35:15
And I landed on that recently on my season one to call him that is experimentation, and allowing, and sort of leaning into that, you know, instead of saying, this is an experiment, yeah. And there is no, there is no outcome other than where it ends up, you know, after X amount of episodes or X amount of interviews or whatever it might be,

35:34
could also dictate the content. You know, why, like, I wonder if safety were playing in that experimentation, if you were to be better about it actually saying, like, what's one thing that you're at your first version of right now? I'm a business perspective. Yeah. Like if you play into that, like, the liberation of thing that's then it because then it becomes very clear as well because then it's like, oh, Not only am I experimenting, I'm making it part of the format. And so every time you experiment every time you do make a little adjustment, you're actually making a better show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so the, when it comes to communicating the like doing the the sentence or two, what's the sentence at the moment? How do you describe it?

36:23
Yeah, well, that's, well, that's kind of where I'm sitting. I've got a whole lot of stuff that I'll just keep kind of dumping out of my head. But I haven't really landed on it. And I suppose you know, and to do that properly, we probably need to have a whole lot of stuff that I've written down in front of us, but

36:40
I think you network strong enough to get people in without having to have that sorted. I bet the thing is the experiment thing like I love that idea of the experiment is part of the theme of the show for the season.

36:54
And so I landed on that because I kept putting I kept having these little barriers like What's the intro to the show? You know, because you listen to a lot of podcasts and like, this is none of my business. It's a podcast about Baba and I just couldn't I couldn't get I was like, I just what is it? And so I was like, I'm just going to eliminate that the need for that intro, and just start talking to people. Definitely. And then I'll work out the intro lighter ones, and I'll come back and edit that in depth when I need to. And so that's where the experiment in candles like when I'm actually doing it. I'm like, Well, I'm just genuinely experimenting with something for me, that could be something for other people, which could be something for the people that I get to sit around a table and chat to. And so then I was like, well, that's got to drive. Like if that's the genuine authentic experience that I'm having. That's what's going to drive and lead the questions and lead the people that I asked to come on and

37:53
yeah, so yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I think. I find point of difference like an interesting thing like, especially in this sort of market that's open, and anyone can do it. It seems like that's going to become more and more of a

38:10
before you start.

38:12
Yeah, like I have to have it. Yeah, difference. Yeah. And this is, I guess the hard thing because it goes against some of the stuff that what we're talking about. And it's also like you just need there is that thing of needing to ship.

38:22
But I guess every year there's X amount new podcast, which means is X amount people being asked to be on podcast so people then become more sceptical? Like that's why early days blown away by the people who said yes, at the time that were the part of our journey where we were at, and I can't hold it as they just locked us. That's why they did it's like, there's also the reality of I've probably haven't been asked a lot we've been we've had a bunch of first first timers on this show. Yeah,

38:54
maybe it's something around actually even saying, like I think part of it, there's a risky sign that you experimentation thing not committing to anything from a communication perspective. And maybe that's the bit that I'm thinking about, which is like, how do you just commit and say, I am doing like, this is show that's doing this. And then keep in mind that not that many people are going to listen to the first episode. And if the second episode that then changes to something a little bit different. I think that

39:25
ultimately, I'm not it doesn't actually like no one's gonna listen, like that's the point. And I know that for a significant amount of time. I think what I'm struggling with these, if I don't, if it's not solid in my mind, of where I'm coming from, there is just a chance like I said before that it's just will fizzle out and I'll just kind of get to this point where I'm like, What am I actually doing? What am I doing like? So I think it's trying to

39:54
pretend the record by the way, done

40:03
So what do you like? It's interesting, like, how do you because I understand that with different parts of my life, this one's I've been lucky with the podcast that I've been able to work through that barrier, but for the 99% of other things.

40:16
So an example of that is like, I know, I work at my best when I'm genuinely excited about something. And then if I'm excited about something, like everything else, like doesn't matter about everything else, because I just, I'm just curious, and I want to just keep asking questions, I want to know more, and I want to get more knowledge. So if I come at it from that point, it's all good. Like they look they'll be, there'll be things that I'll just keep talking or I'll just whatever it is. I think I just need to in my mind, and again, like I flipped between going this doesn't matter and it does matter, but it's just going where am I coming from and what is that? Um, what is it? What is it that I want out of this experience, this experience But look, I'm getting close to that.

41:03
I think it's, if you could just what would it look like if you just took action? On a season? Minimum Viable? And you reassess,

41:13
so that you see, we've already done it.

41:16
And that's what episodes have you got

41:18
your one are you doing to in the next year? Yeah,

41:21
no, I'm just gonna keep going. Like it was a good

41:23
one. Like, you should put it at because it was good. Yeah. But

41:26
yeah, what's the so the risking putting it out now is that

41:31
there is no risk, the risk and putting it out now as they'll just be a long time between then that one in the next one. And but potentially, but potentially not. But yeah, there's no reason why I'm not putting it out. I listened back to most of it. And I was like, yeah, that that was that was fine. I think what it actually identified is that I can go down a number of paths and I just had a few questions that I kind of, you know, had on my phone and I asked Johnny about and you know, it was fine. But it probably highlighted What am I actually doing? Like what is it because I've gone I deviated from account with it like the concept of none of my business. I enjoy conversation about business and with people that what they're doing and you know, stuff that I sort of deviate. And I said, well can be more than that, like you were saying before, like it can be business in life a very integrated, so it can go on a whole different tangent, but then that kind of created too much. It became too vague. And so then I came back and I said right now it does need to be the foundation does need to be about work and work life and business. And you know, just and that'll probably underpin most of the guests that I ask on

42:42
and then finish with the first five on their personal life. None of my business what's your best investment personally? We'll start with Yeah, I think yeah, I mean, I think you know, the answers like I think

42:56
and so, why thing is hard, though. I think that it is difficult, especially in 2020, when there is you can see so many people doing different things. And then you just sort of assume a narrative based on what everyone else is doing, which I think is is hard. The why of why we're doing it or what yeah, it's like, okay, so like, if you take the networking thing, like there's a heap of ways that you can network, yeah, if you go to a meet up once a week or like this, and so, I think that that's the challenge as well for most people is it's like, okay, I could actually do this a million ways. And every single way would work. And it is very hard to be looking at something day one and saying I want to try and get the first thing to be right. And I think that maybe part of it is the fear of not continuing to do it is almost like a barrier because it's that time Fear of failure really, because it's and so if we can bypass that if we can work out, I'd look at the reverse psychology of like, um, maybe it won't like, yeah, maybe this isn't forever. Maybe this is only for four episodes. But I need to actually like, do it. Yeah, I need to try to

44:17
the 10 you think for us is on the really cemented itself, you're in a median, because you then you work at a factory can do that. And when the

44:25
episodes your first hundred episodes were like I might get to 100 and be done. And so there was a little bit like definitely that happens over time and you build momentum. But then you don't know what could come at, like, if you've got the podcast is the start, then it could, you could say, Okay, I'm going to transcribe this and turn it into like a blog or do something else or you know what, as a basic thing, it's going to be a LinkedIn post once a week. Yeah. But yeah, the Y stuff is hard, because

44:57
it's hard to work out before you've started something well

44:59
As I said, as we've said, You know, I know personally that it's, there's a drive that I have for having meaningful conversations with people. And I think the podcast gives you that unique platform to be able to do that.

45:14
You bet you having an enough outside of podcasting, like so. Maybe they're a wonder if there is something in take the podcast off the table for even awake and say, Who am I speaking with now? that's doing exactly who can I speak to now that would be doing exactly what I said, have the experience I want to be having, but I'm just not recording it. Yeah,

45:40
yeah. So I'm doing that. Yeah.

45:42
Yeah. It's interesting. You know, it's good. Because I'm

45:48
like, I was like, maybe you don't need it doesn't need to be a fucking podcast. Yeah.

45:53
Yeah, I think you're, I think you're further enough along thinking that you want to even do once you may as well.

46:00
I'm gonna try it like i think i think it creates a unique environment. So for whatever reason, the podcasting environment makes people kind of, you know, be a bit more honest or maybe talk about things that they wouldn't necessarily talk about and not that he's trying to Pro. But it does set up a interesting environment when you get someone in the door, and you get them to sort of make that commitment. People that have got a lot of experience talking on, you know, the top like, cuz you guys have a lot of people on that have got something to sell, or something to talk about. Yeah. So they're generally used to it. So I'm kind of interested to talk to people that don't necessarily have that like that aren't necessarily they don't think they're selling anything, but they actually have really good, insightful things that they do. That everyone does, but it's not necessarily celebrated like someone who's just written a book.

46:53
Yeah. Yeah. I makes a lot of sense. I love it. When we can all listen

47:01
Say I made the hot the hot up. Yeah. Wait, what do you think? 97? Like, I feel like you've got you've had so much growth in the past or he sits in the corner listening to every episode. And also Yeah, what do you like? What are you observing? What do you think?

47:17
Yeah, I mean, I think the the whole thing around reframing it to be an experiment and the whole sort of first season being an experiment and seeing what happens is probably what I resonate the most with. That's what I mean, I would probably do, but

47:34
yeah, I mean, you struggle to commit that. So

47:38
I feel like mate, yeah. Just just jumping in and seeing what it's like, and if you enjoy it, and potentially finding that reason, or that structure, what you want it to be as you go, I don't know. I don't know what uh, what other way we can

47:55
hypothesise like it seems like dumb like you're even thinking about it until you fucking doing it right? It's like, it's like you've got a mate who say I'm thinking about the gym. Maybe I should just like commit to 12 days. Nice and

48:12
yeah.

48:15
But if you actually just like, yeah, the easiest way to know is to actually go that's going to be the whole fucking experience, you know, something

48:21
that's come up, I've put out because I've told a few people about that I'm doing just because I want to kind of put myself in that experience of having to say what it is. And so two things when you're telling someone that you're doing they go, Oh, what is it about and that's probably what I'm struggling with. So that's that concise?

48:38
might feel Yeah, yeah.

48:42
They don't like

48:42
to talk about so we didn't talk about as for the first 2020 apps, yeah. And so I think there's so much power in that which is okay, I'm just gonna fucking like not asking any like, you

48:54
didn't have to ask anyone yet. So then the feedback. The other thing, the other thing is that you are going to come And the first thing they say is what was

49:02
best when I said you network? We've had all your mates on you just haven't there's so much

49:08
but I get that it's the cell so Sally's I'm doing experiment. Totally and that's the shit literally oldies and then like it like, if you if you bullshit like there I can be they can only be disappointed and you're not necessarily

49:22
you don't know what the fucking answer I'm doing an experiment You're my mate trust me we should have a great conversation. Yeah, and if not, we good to catch up. Yeah.

49:30
I also think to it to your point around like, if you've got a network, thinking about how way people are judging the decision of the so the know. So for instance, if if you're coming from a perspective of Hey, will you be on the podcast? I'm a podcast or this is what I'm doing this the podcast podcast, but if you like change that to me, like I'm doing like post this is a personal growth exercise. would you would you help with this? I'm experiment I'm starting with a podcast and I'm recording these episodes, then the question isn't fucking what's your podcast about? It's either like, yeah, we want to help Mikey and yeah, we'll give it a go and we can do that. We want. Yeah, it's I think there's something in that framing too. And I think that everyone does that which is like, it's the same with them. When it comes to a fight from a money perspective, when you like having someone say you work for you, they did this whole Dan Ariely like a social psychologist, talks about how they did a study where they paid people allow amount, and then they got people to do it for free. And the people who were doing work for free, worked significantly harder than those that were getting paid amount, a small amount. And the reason was, was because when you're getting paid a small amount, you're thinking you're referencing what you should be getting paid. And so you're using that method. And when you doing it for free, it's actually a five on And saving. Yeah. And so then when you are doing it as a social good or if it's like a favour, you're going to put in all the effort, I think so there's probably something in not trying to fucking pitch it like a podcast and that you're driving.

51:14
Yeah. All mental stuff. So yeah, I mean, just reframing it until you get to a point where you're comfortable. Yeah, the experimentation thing like that took me a while to get to a point where I'm like, Fuck, hey, I'm second if I just frame this in my head as an experiment, yeah, fucking Kate Exactly. Like putting two hella dies in a test tube and saying, What colour? is this?

51:32
Probably drawing the line in the sand of no more thinking? I think you've done you've thought a lot. you've tested it. You've come on the show. On this show, and you know, like, I think it's all worth worth it on the journey of talking to other people.

51:48
Closer like if that's the little glimpse of hope it's like me with my fucking habits. I've got the strakes app. That's like I'm not hitting every habit each night but I'm like, fuck if I can actually get Go through moments of I haven't done them all like I can. Do I really need to even add this one to about like now if the ones I fucking do the habits that I'm finishing I'm like selecting that I've done it. And it just like keeps that like, seems like I'm

52:15
told gronk the other day.

52:16
Oh yeah, yeah, he's using strikes, is he? Yeah, it's fine. Have you seen the strikes app, isn't it? So it's got like all the things that you do in a day

52:23
I just signed up to cuantas wallbang so I'll get Qantas points for every step but I get stuff and getting me get on it.

52:30
I can't we just get a little thing in the office that so we're just shaking

52:34
it up and

52:36
getting the fuck out of this thing.

52:38
So what you've walked away to a first class ticket to London.

52:43
So what I was saying,

52:46
I fucking lost my train of thought.

52:49
We're talking about I was talking about the doing stuff.

52:54
So I was talking to about just another framing thing of what why I'm doing it but He's getting

53:00
free coaching, isn't he?

53:07
Yeah, he's

53:08
a good man. And I was saying to him how so much like, this is even like, you can connect better, like one of one of my objectives is to be able to connect better with, like good nights, like mates that I see all the time. Yeah. And I was saying, how is it a like, I think on the weekend,

53:25
and I came away, I'm like, Fuck, that

53:26
was a lot of just small talk bullshit. You know, and I've

53:30
known these gonna cubicle crazy.

53:33
Known these guys for 25 years. Yeah. And yet you still come away from some of those things. Not all of it, but you come away from some of those things. You know? We really talking about the weather. Yeah. Like, I know, it's a bit freaky at the moment.

53:47
Guy, is it the reframing thing, like as I went, like, one thing that I that's why I love walks. I feel like when you go on a walk with someone, and do fuckin like small talk, yeah. So

53:58
so and that's the point. That's my point. It's also about giving credit that's and that's another thing about a podcast is you create an environment where you like, and maybe you know, you don't call it a podcast or whatever. But when you create an environment where you're like, we're not going to talk bullshit, let's actually dive into something that to be made to you. It's a bit interesting.

54:18
Uh, do you think that your What do you you know, told gronk talks about the quote I was how you how you release it in the circumstance or situation like how like so if you're a you facking saying, Yeah, the weather is fat and shit.

54:34
Yeah, absolutely. And then you drop into the mindset you drop into that Yeah, and then you grow here So yeah, I can wear this shit.

54:45
Yet side pointing. Wow, look at that.

54:47
So I was there something changes coming today

54:48
as the kids good. real good.

54:52
Good. Thank you. So yeah, I mean, there's something in that but maybe I think the podcast that I think that definitely For this format for us, socially, I think that we probably enter into things quicker. Yeah. And I think for some, for some of it, it's because people expect that as well. It's almost like you'd be kind of like when people hearing it all the time, or you sort of like, you just naturally do it more.

55:19
I went on a real rabbit hole from the bank bungay stanier episode.

55:23
He's got his knee.

55:24
He's great weapons. I read his book. And then that put me then through his reading his book, he put me on to another one, which is called a more beautiful question. Yeah. It's awesome. So I'm reading at the moment. But anyway, it's just about this concept of questioning and you know, we lose the we we almost lose the skill of questioning from the time from from four years old, you know, because four year olds and you're about to cop it even more than you are now. But they just start like asking you about April and there's about 20 questions within a space of 30 seconds. And

55:58
we've been asked, What is Dr. Dark It was dark.

56:02
What is the sky? where the where did the stars come solid

56:05
questions like What is that? Can you explain that to a kid that doesn't understand what's

56:08
a line and somebody? protons, photons? facking the lack of the lack of photons? I think it was.

56:14
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Explain that to a three year old, right?

56:17
Yeah. Then what a photon expanded to tell me

56:19
yeah explain to the three years that night

56:24
I go to school and they're asking you

56:27
directly I remember you telling me this year at the height of your question asking for and then as you go grow older, age goes up. it deteriorates your question, because you

56:38
start going to school schools all about knowing the answer. So you're so and then memorization of answers. So you stop asking questions, you start becoming inquisitive. So your peak questioning is when you four years out, and then it goes like that.

56:51
I mean, we've had it would have had a massive spike in question asking of the last two years and

56:56
then people are uncomfortable like it

56:58
Yeah. Like a

57:00
arcanum last week had three people who have said, Man, you were just like, you asked a lot of questions after the episode after the episode I did. It's a bit confronting.

57:10
Yeah. Yeah.

57:13
But I think there is a because the other thing too is I think that we try and because because not socially acceptable, it seems rude to just be asking questions. Most most people sort of lather it up in all this other shit before they get to it. Yeah, whereas I think that may be sometimes when, especially when I'm Ty and

57:32
yeah, just like Cape Town directors doing the questions. Yeah.

57:35
Which comes from a place of curiosity, which is a good thing. You know, and and, and that's where the kind of context of this book is. It's like, if we want to be better in business and we want to be better in designing and creating outcomes. And you know, we've got to be better question. Lock in and the big, the, you know, the Googles and the Microsoft's and the, and Amazon's, you know, it's part of their culture now, to be good question is And continuing to ask questions at every level. And

58:05
yeah, this is perfect segue to my my book club book, The Daily talk show book club, but I'm sort of running the whole year.

58:15
I tried to, I click the link. But the annoying thing with Kindle is you can be signed up to amazon.com or amazon.com.

58:24
With Audible, but we've got an update on that too. Because we're talking so the book is called you're not listening. So right steps is your book, your treasure and you have a look at the details.

58:37
It is Yeah, that is you're not listening.

58:39
Okay, so you're just pushing back? Yeah.

58:40
Okay, interesting. Kate Murphy.

58:46
You push back and destroy tells me

58:50
so.

58:53
Yeah, so we're doing that book, which I think is perfect. It's all about this. It's all about money, how we listen and all that stuff. But what I was going to say is I'm George, our editor. He's mom runs the main bookshop in Byron Bay. And we're going to do some form of partnership where the gronk can get a discount at the bookshop,

59:15
you have to fly there or

59:17
no, they deliver as well and should also provide us with the book at a discount or potentially pay full price. Well, she actually sounds good to us. She said Right. Right. I think that we could we could

59:30
ask Carrie for the company qadbak story still gonna

59:34
be there so that'll be fun. But like I said, one was starting that I feel like you should get around

59:38
I want I actually intended to that's what I want to buy.

59:41
Right? Well, don't buy it like six days.

59:43
I don't have got four days

59:45
we had a weird 43 click throughs or something. How many people bought it, Sims? Three. I think we made $2 87 it's just like I copy fact pushing Amazon that hard to be shot before you put the milk

1:00:01
Yeah, it's

1:00:01
crazy. All right, Mikey, thank you for having me on.

1:00:04
Yeah, I have that. I think that any I think the these conversations a good even if it's not a podcast you wanting to start but it's anything that you're wanting to start. It's a creative project that has all the barriers of it's only you stopping you from doing the thing.

1:00:20
Well that Yeah, so I've been getting up at 5am for the last couple of weeks doing my yoga and journaling and writing. That's the format I'm trying to follow.

1:00:29
And so far, we've gone to the podcast, I haven't mentioned that but what I mentioned

1:00:39
one of the things that have been coming up is just that barrier that we put out in front of ourselves and just and the whole reframing thing and you know, like all it takes is just going what's the excuse that like, you wake up and you're like, you've got 10 excuses as to why you shouldn't get any bit before

1:00:54
we go gogans

1:00:57
thing is the the main excuse I reckon is like are you know what, like, But if I get this notion that it's like if I get up at 5am and be fucking tired at 2pm I actually need to be at work working.

1:01:09
You know, I got coffee.

1:01:12
drinking more. Yeah, nothing I can hide the daily talk show.com if you do want to join the book club, you just have to go to our Facebook group some people who don't have Facebook have been asking me about it right? haven't worked. I just the main thing is you just got to get the book and then

1:01:31
send them to link to

1:01:33
do you know what George's bookstore called place? Byron Bay's bookstore, the book room collective,

1:01:39
the book room collective,

1:01:41
and so on the show

1:01:42
notes if you go there in the in person in the next few days and say the daily talk shows sent you that will probably do something.

1:01:55
Store at the front. Yeah, you can buy one

1:02:00
Say tomorrow guys say hi guys.