Ryan Shelton On Empathy & Teamwork

Ryan: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 511, and we're at the top of Runyon Canyon. We got Ryan Shelton.

Ryan: Hello.

Josh: Hey, buddy.

Ryan: I can't believe I made it.

Josh: I always said get me on 511 and get me at the top, and so we've got you at the top.

Ryan: I'm on the top of Runyon, I want 511, and I won't come on until then.

Josh: You did say less flies, so unfortunately there's a lot of flies here today.

Ryan: Yeah, they're like the sort of the secret guest.

Josh: I love Runyon Canyon because it's— you always like that. We just had a couple couple of people in full leather jacket. Like, it's first thing in the morning, really hot.

Ryan: I didn't even really clock that. That was weird, mate.

Josh: It's all about— it's all about fashion, to be honest.

Ryan: Well, you're in Los Angeles, mate.

Josh: What are you doing here?

Ryan: Um, just— I'm seeing friends, doing a little bit of work. Uh, there's— that's really it. Yeah, I should have had a better storey to go with it. Just seeing friends, bit of work. So yeah, that's it. How long does this episode go for?

Josh: Yeah, we're done.

Tommy: We're done. We're done.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What was the last Last time you were in LA, when was that?

Ryan: I was probably, I think 3 years ago, but then 4 years ago I was here in 2015 for the Back to the Future 30-year anniversary.

Tommy: Oh, that's right.

Ryan: And that was, yeah, that was one of the nerdiest times of my life.

Josh: I feel like I've seen a photo of you in the boots or the jacket or something.

Ryan: Yeah, well.

Josh: Was that from that time?

Ryan: Well, it could have been any time in my life, but yeah, there was certainly, there was, so for those who don't know, Back to the Future, 2, he goes into the future to 2015. So in 2015, on the date that he went into the future, these people organised this big, like, convention-y thing that went for 5 days. It was wild. Like, the people that I met on that were proper fans.

Josh: Is that something that you nerd out about?

Ryan: I don't so much anymore. I feel like that was like my swan song.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. When you realised that he wasn't there, he hadn't actually travelled to the future in 2015.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh: Was it real?

Ryan: We're all waiting. 3, 2, 1. 1, nothing. That was bullshit! Oh, zamecas!

Tommy: Did you ever feel a pressure to, you know, like Rove did the whole moving to LA thing? Yeah. Did you ever think about doing something like that?

Ryan: Not really. I don't, I mean, I love it here, but it's also, I find it quite tough. Not that I've ever lived here, but I would find it quite tough. If you didn't have a reason to be here. Yeah. Like the—

Tommy: If you weren't just seeing some friends and doing work.

Ryan: If you weren't begging/pitching, which is what most people are like just spending their days doing. I feel like it's quite a, I mean, some people like strive off it, but I don't really, thrive off it.

Tommy: Strive off it? Thrive off it.

Josh: Both. Some people strive, others thrive.

Ryan: Thrive.

Josh: Yeah.

Ryan: Some people jive off it. Either, or all of them.

Josh: Yeah, I was saying to my wife last night, I don't think I could do the grind here. It's hard enough.

Tommy: Yeah, baby's not built for it.

Josh: Back home in Melbourne where it's, you know, beautiful conditions. Yeah. Actually not, the weather's shit house, but you know, it's like, it's much easier life, I feel, back home. Like you see the struggle here in Los Angeles. Oh yeah. You see the poverty. It's super bad. But it's like this weird utopia because you look behind, there's like, how, you know, celebrity houses. And then there's a guy with a, you know, trolley.

Ryan: It's like a big game of musical chairs and there's like a million people and there's like 100 chairs, but the 100 chairs are like behind 4 doors that you've got to find special keys to get to. So, even if you get to the chairs, then you won't even get a seat. That's— it's tricky.

Tommy: What do you do when you come to LA? Like, are there certain food places you have to go to or should you stay?

Ryan: Well, I like going to like Canter's Deli, which is like this sort of old-fashioned, like Old Hollywood Jewish deli kind of place. And that's pretty— like those sorts of places. I really like Mel's Diner.

Josh: We did that.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh: Oh, yeah.

Tommy: That was great.

Ryan: It was one of the—

Josh: after we did— run in the other direction.

Ryan: That dog's wearing shoes. Doggy dog.

Josh: There's another thing. And it's wearing a leather jacket.

Ryan: What? That is amazing.

Josh: So we got an I visa for this trip. It was very lucky that we even got it.

Tommy: It was like a media visa, which we probably— like we've done Esters.

Ryan: You need that?

Tommy: Well, yeah, we normally do like the Esters and all that sort of thing, just rock up. And then we had a moment of like, oh, we're going with gear, maybe we should do it.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And I started filling out the form. And then halfway through panicked because you have to do all this stuff and you have to have like a consulate appointment.

Ryan: Oh yeah, it's really hard.

Tommy: And we only did it like a month before we were leaving.

Josh: And there's no— like you pay the money and there's no guarantee. And so then we— how would we do it otherwise? Like we've ruined and we've paid for the flights. What— are you on a visa here or you're visiting?

Ryan: I'm just a guest because I'm— yeah, because I'm—

Tommy: business stuff.

Ryan: Yeah, just— it's just like meetings and you don't really— they're not really doing proper work. So yeah, just the— I don't know.

Tommy: What's it like with gap— when you were doing gap year and things like that, doing— going overseas, did you guys play in all that sort of stuff or did you go—

Ryan: Oh yeah, like for those things, I mean, I didn't have to do them, but I imagine there was like, I mean, there was, there was like heaps of visas, whatever you call them. But I think now, because we just did this show Perfect Holiday and we filmed it here, I didn't come over, but for that the visa process was a lot harder. It's like now you literally have to like line up at Donald Trump's office and ask for permission. That's what he's spending his days doing, just like yes or no to visas.

Tommy: It's outrageous.

Josh: When we had Andy on, he was telling us about the process of selling True Stories around the world. And there was like, you know, that big conference over in, is it France where there's a bunch of TV shows being sold?

Ryan: Yeah, at Cannes.

Josh: Have you been to any of those festivals?

Ryan: Well, I went to just before MIP where True Story first got sold. I went with Tim, who we work with as well, Tim Bartley, and we went over because Warner Brothers got like, they sort of bought the rights or secured the rights to be able to sell it around the world. So we went to their kind of pre-conference, I think it was called a creative conference, and we went there and presented the show, like did like this big PowerPoint presentation on True Story, teaching them what it is and blah, blah, blah.

Tommy: Did you actually get into the tools? Did you like play around with Keynote, add animations and shit?

Josh: No.

Ryan: What did we do? I think it was maybe even a programme called Prezi.

Tommy: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Ryan: I think Tim likes Prezi.

Josh: What is that, a free version?

Tommy: No, it's like it's all web-based, I think.

Ryan: Yeah. I mean, it's— I haven't used it.

Tommy: Teachers love it, I think, because you can really just like get into it. Like you can do graphs and it's very good.

Josh: Shit, we got the NYPD. No, the LAPD. No, legit is the LAPD.

Tommy: That's exciting.

Ryan: It's ever since I said Esther. Yeah.

Josh: I mean, That is great. I mean, the other day we saw like a— it was like a military-grade helicopter flying over us.

Tommy: It was almost like a drone thing. There was like multiple—

Ryan: yeah, it probably was just a shoot. Yeah, it was a film shoot, but that was very low.

Tommy: I wonder if we set them off.

Ryan: Anyway, yeah, probably. Well, I mean, you don't see a camera that often in LA.

Tommy: Um, how do you plan what you're going to do for a year? Are you, are you looking a year ahead?

Ryan: Not really. I mean, this is sort of the strange thing. We are not that— we plan a little bit ahead, but we're— well, at Radio Karate, which is our company, we're very much like a one-show-at-a-time company. We are so bad at multitasking.

Tommy: Sure.

Ryan: So we just do like the one show, and then we finish that, and then once that's finished, then we'll go, okay, now what are we going to do? As opposed to most normal intelligent production companies who have like multiple things going at once because that's a smarter financial thing. But because we all work on it like hands-on, we just like, we don't want to stop getting to make it. Yeah.

Josh: Is it, I mean, is it a smarter, it may be a smarter financial thing, but is it a smarter creativity thing? Like, are you getting the best out of the show by just doing one at a time?

Ryan: Yeah, well, we think so, especially the way that we work because the way that we've come up, we started on just making stuff on Channel 31 in Melbourne. So we've just always done it. The way that we do it now is just the only way we know. And nothing's, the only thing that's really changed is the scale, but the general way we approach it is the same. Like we all sit in the edit suites together and edit and like it's the same. Yeah.

Tommy: We've committed to do the daily talk show for 10 years. There's not many people. You're right. So there's— we're nearly 2 years in. We've—

Ryan: Why 10?

Tommy: 10 felt like a— if we look at what we love and the things that are out there, it takes time. And so I think that it's really easy to get a year in, 2 years in, 3 years in, and it gets a little bit hard and then you quit.

Ryan: How many episodes will that be?

Tommy: It'll be over 3,000. Yeah. Which doesn't sound like that many. Like, we'll be hitting—

Josh: Is there any podcasts out there with that many yet?

Tommy: Yeah, there's one I'm trying— Keith and the Girl, which is a new New York-based podcast. They're sort of very indie. And yeah, they were doing it from '05, and I think they're in the 3,000s.

Ryan: Yeah, jeez.

Tommy: Impressive. So there aren't that many people who have stuck to something for a significant amount of time, which is why I think it's exciting for us. With Radio Karate, you guys, how long has that been?

Ryan: Doing radio karate? Well, we probably, it was sort of a gradual start. But we started, like, we made Real Stories, which was our first proper show. And that was in 2006, I think. Yeah. And yeah, we've done about 3,000 episodes of that.

Tommy: There was—

Ryan: Done about 3,000 episodes.

Tommy: Well, there was the mockumentary.

Josh: Acknowledge it, Josh.

Ryan: I've said a joke. I was happy with the response here.

Tommy: No, well, I was literally thinking, no, because when you said that, I was like, hang on, you— Before that, you did that mockumentary that was based in a house.

Ryan: Oh, it was the Greystone 2800. Yeah, true, that was before that. So that was part of a Channel 7 pilot that didn't get up that we made at Channel 7. And then that was, we took that little sort of one of the sketches that we did as part of that sort of Tonight Show variety show pilot thing. 'cause it didn't get up, we just took that and entered it into a short film, the Comedy Festival short film competition. And that's what got us Real Stories.

Josh: Do you remember the thinking around the time that you didn't get the thing up? So you didn't get the TV show to see a full season.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh: Do you remember what you're thinking then before you started having the wind?

Ryan: Nothing, I mean, I wasn't, I just was just thinking, well, we'll just see what happens. We were pretty young, like we were only, We were like early 20s or something, so we didn't— like, I certainly wasn't thinking it would go anywhere else. I just always thought, well, the next ones, we'll do that and then we'll stop, because I didn't want to be greedy. So I never really expected it. I hoped that it would, but I never really expected it to go any further than what it did.

Tommy: So when did you know that it was going to be something that you guys were going to commit to for a longer period of time?

Ryan: Probably after, probably after Rove finished. When Rove finished and I finished up on Nova, I did like Nova for 2 years. After that, that's when we did Gap Year and that was the, that was the first time where we kind of really broke out on our own and, and decided we'd do this show called Hey Machine Heads Gap Year and then we went to New York and that was, that was the first time I was like, okay, well this is a real thing now. That was in 2011.

Tommy: What does it take to have long business and creative relationships, do you think?

Ryan: Uh, well, probably, I mean, patience, empathy, um, probably the big ones, I reckon. I, I think especially in a creative, in a creative world, everyone is just worried if they're good enough most the time. Like, even in a team, even when you know everyone's got your back, I think one of the things that you're constantly— maybe this is me just projecting, but aren't we all?

Josh: Yeah, we're all here.

Ryan: Turning into a therapy session. But no, it's— you just want to be contributing enough to make your position worthy. And so I think in, especially in a group of friends, which we are, we've all come up together, we've all started from high school together. So there are different times where people are doing different things, and I reckon The key to it is if you have that kind of empathy, understanding of each other and where each other are coming from, always trying to think of how can I help the other people. That's the goal at least. That's, I mean, that's the best way to approach it, I think.

Josh: We were talking about love languages on EP 500. Just in a team dynamic, understanding how Josh needs to be treated or, you know, told some words of affirmation that he's doing something good. So tell them to me now.

Ryan: Yeah, you're doing good. Good. Yeah, nailed it. I love what you're doing.

Josh: For you in that team environment with your mates, do you think they understand how to help you along in those hard times?

Ryan: I think so, yeah, and it's taken a long time. I mean, I work with James and Andy obviously, and so that's— they've had this sort of— they've been quite successful. I don't know if you've been following. Who haven't? Hamish is the girl, Andy's the guy. I actually— when I came over from the airport, I only say that because When I was at Melbourne Airport coming over here, the customs guy was asking me what I'm coming over for, and he's just like, what do you do?

Josh: And I said, I work, bit of travel.

Tommy: It was actually the visa questions were easier than what Tommy was throwing at you before.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, that's the questions are great. Anyway, so he said, oh, who do you, who do you work with? What do you do? So I work in TV. He's like, oh, who do you, what do you make? And I said, oh, have you ever heard of, you know, Hamish and Andy? And he was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes He says, "Hamish is the girl, right?" I was like, "No, Hamish is the guy. Andy is the guy. They're the guys. They're both guys." Yeah, they, yeah, anyway, it was funny. So, but I think because of that, because they've been, they've had such a like ridiculous meteoric success, like success, I've, within that group, I've just sort of slowly had to find my role within that. Like, how do I support them in that? When— because I really, I perform as well and I write as well, and it's been like a really interesting, I guess, like journey, for want of a better term, to sort of figure out how that balance works for my own stuff. And it's just great now. Like, I've sort of in the last couple of years sort of found that happy balance between going like, well, I can just, I do my stuff over here and I do this stuff over here. And it doesn't have to be exclusive. It doesn't have to be just the one thing.

Josh: I mean, you might not be looking for it, but validation, I think we all appreciate when we know what we're doing is working or connecting. What is it for you that is an indicator of or gives you validation?

Ryan: Well, I think knowing that people are benefiting or knowing that it can help, knowing that it's helping people, contribution, I reckon, is the big the big one, what I'm sort of more focused on now, because the validation, the search for validation is a dark, gloomy hole, because it's sort of, it's sort of, I find it's sort of never enough. Like, even if you get validated once, then if you value that, then you're going to keep wanting it. And in my experience, like, that's just, it's a bit of an empty It's an empty goal.

Tommy: So should people not chase that? Is there anything to gain from winning a Logie?

Ryan: Well, I mean, there is in the sense that it might help you get another job. And TV networks like Channel 9 really likes it when we win Logies. So from that point of view, it's beneficial. From the point of view that we can then continue to make the show, which hopefully makes people happy. Like, that's the only reason why we would like to, why we would win one.

Tommy: Have you ever believed the hype where it has then affected you in a way that's not necessarily positive?

Ryan: Oh, well, I mean, working at commercial, in commercial radio is just a hype machine that can just be shut down at any moment. And that's, it's a fascinating world because It's an incredible opportunity that you get because I also— I did the Drive show for 2 years with Whipper and Monty.

Josh: That's right, you moved up to Sydney for that. No, no, I was in Melbourne.

Ryan: Yeah, that was Melbourne.

Josh: Monty moved up to Sydney.

Ryan: Monty moved up after that.

Josh: Okay, so that wasn't with you yet.

Ryan: Yeah, and so that's an example where when you join up, like when they sign you up, you're the messiah. Like you're the answer to all their problems and they just love everything you do and It's, it's, it feels great.

Tommy: Is that a setup? Is it like, is it putting the pressure on now that you've gone through it? Are there signs where creative, where you can take learnings as a creative where if this is happening, this doesn't mean X?

Ryan: How do you mean? Sorry.

Tommy: So like, I guess if you are the, was the truth in that the whole Messiah thing, do you think that that was beneficial to your growth?

Ryan: Oh, for sure. Overall, I'm glad, I'm so glad I did it. Yeah. But it's kind of like the equivalent of what people talk about when they take like meetings in LA. And people always, often people come back from LA if they're coming over to pitch or to take meetings with agents or whatever they're trying to do. Usually the hype is pretty strong in that first meeting because everyone, no one wants to miss out on the next big thing. So you really, your tyres are really pumped up. Like, it should be a form of life coaching, like just taking first meetings in LA. Yeah. Because it would really make you feel great. But, um, but yeah, but I think I've lost my train of thought.

Tommy: So you—

Ryan: it's on the fly.

Tommy: Well, just, just, just think like the commercial radio experience.

Ryan: Commercial radio, that's right.

Tommy: Getting, getting in there.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I find that interesting. So does it, does it run out eventually? Like, when does, when do the things start to peel away and reveal that Actually, this isn't all roses.

Ryan: Well, it's when— if you don't rate well, I mean, you guys know this. It's like if you don't rate well—

Josh: No, we don't.

Ryan: We rate well.

Tommy: If anyone knows not rating, it's you two.

Ryan: I'm very good at not rating. That's what they get me in for. Drive the stock price down. Bring us— No, when you're not, when you're not doing well, obviously, they're, you know, commercial radio station is all about selling ads. Like, that's all they exist for really at the end of the day. So if you're not rating well, they're not selling ads, and you're not doing your job. So I think that was a realisation I had pretty quickly there. I kind of went in with rose-tinted glasses thinking that I can do this differently and I can do it my own way, and then you realise pretty quickly that you are one little mini cog in an enormous thing, and you don't— even though you're on the billboard, it doesn't— you don't really matter.

Josh: That's what I've always found fascinating because it's— you're the face of the business.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Josh: But then there's a whole other thing that needs to happen as well for the business to operate. And so does it give you a false sense? Was there a learning over the 2 years of, oh, fuck, this isn't what I thought it was in terms of—

Ryan: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I wasn't— I didn't— I tried not to be too resentful about it because if you like earning money, it's great. Like, if that's a driver, then it's a really good thing. But if that's not the most important thing to you, then it can be a little bit tough. Because our team was great, like I loved when we were on air, it was sort of all the other bits and pieces that came along with it, like all the meetings with clients and stuff. And I mean, you know that experience, you guys would know this experience, the integration meetings.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Ryan: Where you're integrating with a brand, so For example, if you go— these flies are really annoying. Yeah, there is a lot of flies. If you go, the boss will come to you and say, hey, Colgate are really keen on— they love the show. I thought, Colgate love the show? I was really hoping to get Hamish and Andy on at the same time. No, no, they love what you guys are doing. It's great. And they're willing to put like a million dollars into the show. We don't say that. They're willing to put a million dollars into the show and they just love you guys to come up with an idea for a couple of weeks. 'Whatever you want, they love you guys, so whatever you guys want to do.' And you're like, 'Oh, whoa, okay, that's, that's cool. So they really love the show. Which bits do they love?' And so—

Tommy: Never ask that, by the way.

Ryan: No, I know, it's a dark hole as well. So you come up with an idea which you think is really fun, you spend a couple hours and you come up with an idea, and then everyone's like, 'This is great, they're gonna love it.' And then they go away and pitch it to Colgate, and then like a day later, 'Guys, they love it, They love the idea. They're thinking whether or not you can do something— they really want to focus on mint. They really want to focus on like a minty fresh idea. Like what? So their whole thing is like fresh, so maybe like an idea that includes freshness. You're like, yeah, no, no, we like the other idea. And like, yep, absolutely, totally, no, I'll go back to them with it. Yeah, I know what you mean, I know what you mean. And so then you go back And they go, "Yeah, no, they're pretty keen on the freshness thing." And then we try and come up with an idea and we can't. And we're like, "We just really like the other one." And they're like, "Yep. The only thing is, so that wouldn't mean we would lose a million dollars. So if you guys don't wanna do it, if you guys don't wanna do it, then that's fine. I'll just have to go to sales and the boss and let them know that." 'You're not keen to support the company, give them a million dollars.' It's like, 'Fine, we'll do it.' So that was most of the time. And that sounds like I'm whinging. It was an amazing opportunity.

Josh: Yeah, but they make you feel immediately like you have this control of the creativity.

Ryan: And it's just the job. It's like, it's just not for me.

Tommy: It's the commercial bit in commercial radio, right? It's almost built into the name. How much are you thinking about audience when you're doing, you know, creating things? Specifically around the radio stuff?

Ryan: Well, yeah, I mean, I think for the radio stuff particularly, that's probably the most I've ever thought about it. Because it is— because it's a very specific— it's a very specific audience who respond to very specific things. And because you're told all the stats that, you know, people only listen for 5 seconds, whatever the stat is.

Tommy: So what were some of the stats and what were the little hacks that you would do to try and—

Ryan: I mean, these are pretty standard, like, radio things, but I think they do say that it's like the standard listening time is 15 minutes. For any listener or something like that in drive time. And because of that, the thing I went into that show thinking was that, oh, well, it's a 2-hour slot, so you structure a 2-hour show. And the thing that they sort of drum into you pretty quickly is that like no one's listening the full 2 hours. Yeah. Maybe a couple of people. But so what you got to do is imagine like every 15-minute increment is like a new show. And so don't worry about callback jokes or whatever. I mean, obviously the really good shows with dedicated listenerships do that. Like, you know, Martin Malloy, James and Andy, those really great shows that, you know, have that huge dedicated listener base. But when you're starting out, you just— I had these grand plans of, you know, out of the gates with Martin Malloy. That's sort of what I was hoping. But it's just obviously it's a different thing.

Tommy: Did you have a favourite phoner? That you did?

Ryan: I loved doing— well, it wasn't— I mean, I didn't really like phoners, but I loved— I used to do this thing which I kind of just— I wish I could just do now because I had so much fun doing it.

Tommy: Do it now.

Josh: Let's do it now.

Ryan: No, it requires people calling.

Josh: We got some Aussies here watching too that have been walking up.

Ryan: Run in. Well, no, it was the thing where people— because people are constantly calling Nova or the station all day, like, for prizes and for things. And so I would just go—

Tommy: prize pigs.

Ryan: Prize— well, we call them pigs behind their back. We don't really like to call them pigs to their face.

Tommy: I think prize pigs, I think it's— I think They stand by it too. If you're fucking calling nonstop, it's a bit of a gronk.

Josh: I know a serial prize pig and it's— and he is a unique swine.

Tommy: Wow. It's a really unique swine.

Ryan: Yeah, well, I used to go in there and they'd be calling in and I'd just— I'd pick up one of them and go and I'd pretend I was an automated Nova response. And so I'd just sort of play with all the things that they would have to do to continue the conversation. So, it's like, "Hello, welcome to Nova. If you'd like to continue the call, say woof." And that would just go for 15-20 minutes. And some people, it was amazing that they would just continue to do these ridiculous things like, "Press 5-2-9-3-6-star-5." And there's a beep, beep, beep, beep.

Tommy: Because they want their fucking prize.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, they've sat on the phone for probably 5 minutes and they can't believe they've got through to something. So, that was fun. I wish I could do that again. I really liked that.

Josh: What's your relationship with social media?

Ryan: Well, it's a tricky one.

Tommy: It's complicated.

Ryan: It's very complicated. I love it and I hate it, I guess, like many people. But I went off it for a while. Like, I was really into it for a long, long time and I would make lots of videos and I really got into it. I made like a series on Instagram called Cliff, like a couple of seasons of this stupid—

Tommy: that's great—

Ryan: soap opera called Cliff. Episodes are 15 seconds. And so I love it from a point of view of exactly kind of like what you guys do, which is just like the ability— there's no middleman, direct to audience. Like, that is an incredible resource.

Tommy: And I feel like you're, you're good at taking it and applying creativity or creative thinking to it, which it feels like it's not necessarily the default thinking nowadays.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know.

Ryan: Well, yeah, I certainly like it. I guess I like the platforms when they first start because it's a bit of a fresh slate. Yeah. And I love— I loved Instagram so much for that reason, particularly when the, when the episode— when the episodes, this in videos, were 15 seconds. I feel like now it's obviously become a TV channel like it's become its own thing or if you have a certain amount of followers you can put on hour-long episodes or hour-long shows on Instagram TV so it's yeah changed up when Snapchat first started I loved Snapchat like Snapchat when it first started from memory it was you just have your friends that you post to and there was no storeys at all you couldn't do it but yeah so it was very—

Tommy: It was a personal thing you would do that "I'm in the lift lift lift left" Never made any videos for YouTube yet back then? Left, left, left, left, until the lift stopped.

Ryan: Can't wait to make that GIF.

Tommy: That was great content, I remember. And then every time I'm in a lift, I'm always just thinking, I'm in a lift.

Ryan: Yeah, well, it was a great time because it was, it was when it was— I'm sure Snapchat still is this, but because the videos disappear after however long, after one watch it was back then, like people watch it once then it's gone. So it's this sort of, the fear was sort of erased you kind of just do whatever you want without that feeling of, oh, this is just going to live on forever. And that is what I really enjoyed. So, with social media, I think I like it, but I'm very cautious about— about especially the way that it kind of sucks you into the validation, the need for the kind of clicks and likes.

Josh: Yeah, well, I think some people wouldn't consciously know the why of why they're using it, right? So they, they want to be famous or they want to grow something, build a business, and they feel the anxiety around doing the thing. But I think that can even translate to people who have already had a lot of success in their thing. So, you know, your TV shows, early days, the radio stuff, it was at a time when these platforms weren't at where they are now. But did you experience the, like, you almost felt, oh, obliged to, I have to do this social media thing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And I think probably that's why I backed away from it. Cause I felt, I felt kind of like an obligation to, and the online presence thing just, just doesn't sit well with me. Personal brand.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: The, the brand thing, just, it's never, and that's probably to my own detriment. Like I know for sure if I had like this, this audience that I was constantly maintaining and talking to and engaging with, I know that would probably help my ability to get TV shows more.

Josh: Yeah, but I think challenging that thinking of not everyone can actually handle doing it. There's some people who just, it's, they wake up, they're just checking their phone, messaging back. It's like, nothing doesn't, they don't feel it. Like, I think I feel the pressure and I don't necessarily like it. And I don't know how productive that pressure is for, you know, for the mission we're on with the Daily Talk Show.

Ryan: Yeah, because how often are you guys like constantly I mean, I guess it's a pretty consuming project.

Tommy: It's easier when you have a brand that's not yourself that you can post on. So having the Daily Talk Show as an Instagram account, it feels like even though it's us, it gives a level of protection that it's all of us.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tommy: And so it doesn't feel as like strongly weighted onto our individual sort of—

Josh: Because if someone calls us a wanker, they're actually calling Josh a wanker. Yeah.

Tommy: Or we can divert anything to that.

Ryan: How did you find that out? I'm only 50% a wanker. Oh yeah, true. Oh, that is good. You can sort of share the wank.

Tommy: You gotta share the wank.

Ryan: Absolutely. That's good. Only in LA. Yeah. But so social media, I like it. I kind of, I wish I'd made more on it, but there's something about being on it. I just, I don't, I feel a bit dirty or something.

Tommy: Is it the connections or whatever? Like, if you were to remove an element, because they obviously removed viewing likes. So that's one thing. But what part of it do you think sort of spoils the whole thing for you?

Ryan: Well, I went through a phase of doing a system where I would post something and then I would immediately delete the app.

Tommy: Yeah, sure.

Ryan: So I didn't have the temptation to cheque because even though—

Tommy: And throw your phone out so you won't—

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. It gets very expensive. Burn the phone. Yeah, close down the account. It's just really subtle things like that. But I I was sort of so unconsciously addicted to finding out if it was good or not, and then I heard someone— Oh no, Hugh. So, this guy Hugh Van Cuylenburg, who I make this podcast with called The Imperfects. So, he told me this. He does this— He has this company called The Resilience Project, and he's done like all this research on all this sort of stuff, and one of the things he found out was So many of the people employed at Instagram and Facebook, whose job it is to keep you engaged, like to keep you on the app, they all have— if you look at their CVs, they've all come from like slot machines.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And poker machines. Oh, really? Because the whole idea of a poker machine is just to keep you sitting there, keep playing. And Facebook and Instagram, it's the same. It's just like they all they want— need to do is just keep playing. And so, so many of the tricks like the pull-down to refresh and even things like apparently on Twitter or Facebook, you know how it sort of takes an extra beat for your notifications thing to show up?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: Like it doesn't actually take that long, but they hold it off. Yeah. It's like the— it's like on poker machines.

Tommy: Because you need to cheque it because now it's not like—

Ryan: it's like this like build of anticipation. It's like, ah. And then another thing apparently is there's— I think someone else, I forget who told me this, but another thing apparently that Instagram does is if you— if you take a photo of yourself, it can recognise that it's your face and it will hold off. So, if you post that and then you close the app or you turn your phone off, it will hold that off from people's feeds for longer.

Tommy: Really?

Ryan: Because it plays on your— kind of insecurities like, oh, people don't like the shot of me.

Tommy: Oh no.

Ryan: And so you're constantly checking it.

Tommy: What about the— I think even like the little things like the seen thing in DMs, like when someone's seen your message. Yeah. That can really fuck with you because you're like, if they say, oh, they've seen it, they haven't written back yet, or, ah, they've written something, I can't see the whole message. I want to say the whole message, but I don't want to show that it's seen. Yeah.

Josh: Well, they're predicting the storey we're going to tell about a specific part of it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Well, we think, we think that we can kind of game the system, but they just know everything we're gonna do. They know how we're trying to game the system and then just changing the app to do it. So yeah, it's obviously not something I'm like super passionate about, but from a creative point of view, it's brilliant. So yeah, it's kind of a— it's hard to find that. For me, it's hard to find that balance.

Josh: Do you think you found the balance in terms of career and what it means, the social media?

Ryan: Not really, because I should I mean, if from a career point of view, I should be putting stuff up all the time, but I just don't feel like drawn to do it for those reasons that I just— there's something about it that doesn't feel quite right. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's a shame because I do like it when I do it, but I'm just— I haven't got the motivation to do it anymore, and I think it's because of what it kind of represents or something.

Tommy: Where do you spend most of your time in life, do you think? Instagram.

Ryan: Yeah, refreshing.

Tommy: Yeah, like what are you doing? I guess like if we've got these two levers, one being time, one being money, I'm curious as to those two things. Like what do you spend more money on than most people would spend, or where are you prioritising those two things, time and then money?

Ryan: Ooh, this is a confronting question. Time and money. I think I don't know. Well, more and more I'm trying to spend time outside of the city and trying to kind of— trying to get out of the kind of hustle bustle.

Tommy: The CBD.

Ryan: The CBD. So, I go down to St. Kilda.

Josh: By the water.

Ryan: Yeah, I'll try and like get in like this sort of thing. I really— it sort of seems like a good— it kind of balances me out a little bit. So, that's become an important thing. I've also like more and more in the last couple of years in this is why I started— why Hugh and I started the podcast. But reading a lot about, um, about like mental health stuff, and I guess just like self-development stuff, has just really interested me. There's a lot— like a lot of people I know, especially in the comedy industry, friends of mine, struggle with depression a lot. And I sort of felt like it was sort of time to figure out how to help them if I could, or how to understand how it worked. And so, about sort of 6 months ago or something, I started seeing a psychologist regularly to— of course, it helps me, but it also just really— I can talk to her about things that my friends are doing and to get an understanding from someone who actually knows what they're talking about of how I can help them or how I can— what's the right thing to say as opposed to me just being like a— just guesswork, guesswork therapy with my friends.

Tommy: And what did you learn from that experience? What was the first psychologist appointment like?

Ryan: Well, the first one, for anyone who's been, the first couple you feel like you're wasting your money because you're just telling her your story.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And so you just sort of spend the first couple just going, well, this is— and they don't really say anything. Well, at least in my experience, they don't really say anything. They're just sort of listening.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Tommy: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: Mm-hmm. And after like 2 sessions, I was like, Jesus, I'm just doing all the talking here. Teach me life quickly.

Tommy: Fix that. Were you self-conscious of the things? 'Cause I wonder about a first session. I haven't been to a psychologist. That's something I'd want to try. It feels like I wonder, I'm like, do they want to go like way back? Do they want like, do we go like, hey, I've been thinking about this thing that happened like when I was a kid and I always like think about it.

Ryan: Perfect.

Tommy: Is that what you do?

Ryan: Well, it depends, like, there are different types of therapists as well. So, there's like traditional psychologists, like the woman I see, she works in something, I think it's called like positive psychology, but then—

Tommy: Sounds shit, positive.

Ryan: Yeah, it's pretty depressing. But then there's another, there's like another, there's like psychoanalysts as well. So, psychoanalysis is kind of like what you usually see on the movies where people are lying on the couch and And that's usually something where people aren't— the therapist isn't saying that much. So, you're just sort of— the point of psychoanalysis apparently is you just say whatever's on your mind. Even if you think you've got nothing to talk about, you just say like, "Oh, I'm just thinking about— I went for an ice cream with my friend Sarah yesterday." It's improv.

Tommy: Well, it's a podcast. It's what we do.

Ryan: Yeah. It's just like this. So, but if you haven't, I think it's— Like, after now going for 6 months, it's something that I just reckon— I just feel like every single person, even if you think you're the happiest person, you're bound to know someone who isn't.

Tommy: Um, has it improved your relationships massively?

Josh: Massively. So you help you to help the people around you?

Ryan: Yeah, and myself. Like, I definitely get a lot out of it as well. Like, I'm— it's mainly I get the help out of it, and I luckily don't have any sort of mental ill health or anything. I'm I've been pretty lucky in that sense, but that doesn't mean I still don't get overwhelmed or get anxiety about something. And to be able to figure out not only how to get through it, but also where it's come from and why. Because once you understand the why, it kind of makes it a little bit easier to deal with, I find. And even like, everyone's got those relationships in their life that that have been like a little bit stagnant for years and it's sort of just, it's gotten worse and worse and worse and you haven't addressed it and you don't really know why it's weird. It's just always been weird. And, you know, it could be a sibling thing or a parent thing or colleague or whatever.

Tommy: So, do you address that now or no? Or how do you deal with it?

Ryan: With the person?

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Well, I mean, ideally you should, but I haven't quite gotten to that stage yet. But that's the whole point is that you you kind of realize, I mean, empathy, like I said before, is such a big one because once you, you know, if someone does something really horrible, like if someone ran up here and just pushed the camera over, they wouldn't go far from— yeah, yeah, absolutely fucking shit out of them. 97 would get a dog onto them, and I'd be right there with you, mate. Seriously, I would absolutely slaughter that person.

Tommy: I would kick their fucking head in.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, I believe it.

Josh: I believe it.

Ryan: When I think of Josh Janson, I think, beat their fucking head in.

Tommy: Yeah, I'd stomp Stomp, stomp, stomp. No more.

Ryan: Oh, let's calm down, mate. We don't have to stomp them.

Tommy: Put them in a bag.

Ryan: Throw them off a cliff. Go find them. Piss on them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Or whatever.

Tommy: So how's the psychology stuff going?

Ryan: So yes, I'm obviously fine. We're levelled out. What was I saying?

Tommy: So the relationship thing, because I'm very curious. You go, you have all of this growth, but not necessarily the people around you aren't necessarily growing at the same rate. And so is it weird?

Ryan: You're a superior being? Is that what you're saying?

Tommy: So you're sitting down, like, do you feel like you need to have those conversations? Or like you said, you weren't necessarily there yet.

Josh: Is it that you know you need to have some hard conversations but you haven't yet had them?

Ryan: Well, I mean, everyone does. Like, I know that. I mean, I've— and they're not bad. They're not really bad. But certainly there are things, there are people that you have in your life that you— that there's a block there. There's something that is— that seems a bit— and it could be because of the thing that you think it is, but it might not be.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: So, it could be that it's like, "Ah, but I didn't go to their farewell party when they left 5 years ago." Yeah. And I haven't heard from them since, so they're probably annoyed at me about that.

Tommy: And so, how do you deal with that sort of thing? Because I guess we can create a storey like that's why they're upset.

Josh: Yeah.

Ryan: Is it ill-informed to go up and say, "Hey, are you upset because I didn't go to your farewell party?" I mean, I don't really want to give people advice on it, but that's essentially what it would be, I think. And but also before you do that, it's taking— because I'm not— I'll try not to get out of my comfort zone, out of my expert level here. But when you kind of— act from— when your ego is kind of in charge of what you're doing, you create a storey around something. Yeah. So, this is what— from what I've read at least, is that you— like, if someone goes and pushes the camera down, the immediate thing—

Josh: They're dead, because Josh is stomping.

Ryan: Absolutely.

Tommy: Yeah, they've been stomped.

Ryan: You can have a moment to consider what you've done once you've fled the country.

Tommy: What visa?

Ryan: You'd have to be on an—

Tommy: You'd have to have a visa you could come in and out as much as you as a stomper.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. I think like, so they push it over, they push it over, then it's the immediate thing to go is like, they're trying to ruin our show, is the immediate thing that most people would assume. And you go like, well, they're trying to ruin our show, that prick, let's stomp them. Um, but, but what, what is— what people say is the, is the kind of better thing to do is to go like, well, that's— who knows if that's true? They might be like severely Like, it could be autistic or something, or who knows what's happening with them. So the people say that the first thing you should always do in those situations is like to remove how it's affecting you and affect like what— remove the storey and just empathise with what they could be going through.

Tommy: Do you reckon it's harder being empathetic in such a, uh, in a city that has such a disparity? Like, I feel like yesterday I had a moment where a guy was asking for a quarter I didn't have any money and I was like, ah, if I did, like, he's an old guy, he's at the bin, he's going through the bin. I'm like, if he's at that level.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, do you think that like being more of an empath or thinking that way, does it make life a little bit trickier as an individual?

Ryan: No. Well, I think if you do it consistently, I think it would make you extremely happier.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah. I think it's because that's essentially just kindness.

Tommy: How's that changed? How does that change your actions, do you think? What are you doing?

Ryan: Well, it lowers your anxiety levels massively because you're not taking on these, you're not making up these fake storeys that then get you angry and annoyed. It's like this, getting annoyed in traffic is the kind of classic one. Someone cuts you off.

Tommy: Other fuckwits though, in traffic.

Ryan: Oh yeah, you fucking stomp them. You get out of your car, stand in front of their car, get them out. No, don't stomp them in America.

Tommy: There's guns, so we just fight. We're actually very well-behaved, like in America, I didn't get annoyed at all. Well, you're gonna get sued.

Ryan: Yeah, I haven't stomped anyone in America. Yeah, I've only been here a couple of days.

Tommy: They're very chill. You wouldn't on your visa.

Ryan: You guys haven't stomped yet?

Tommy: No, no, no, no, no.

Ryan: We could though.

Tommy: Yeah, with the sort of—

Josh: yeah, you keep pushing, it's gonna happen to you.

Ryan: You just don't know. There are some absolute fuckwits, guys. Uh, yeah, so anyway, that, that's, that's the sort of, in a nutshell, that's the sort of stuff that, that I've been like thinking a lot about, and it's, it's really, it's It's really fascinating.

Tommy: What does it mean to be an individual in a creative team?

Ryan: Mm, really good question. That's a great one. Well, it's to put aside your— it's probably to put aside your individual goals, but also acknowledge your individual strengths. So, to know what your strengths are in a team. And realise that, well, that's how I'm going to be the best teammate, is to do my best. But that means that I have to be like, acknowledge what am I really good at, how am I going to be— but not like, but what am I really good at within this team? Not like, well, I'm really good at footy, so I could go and start a footy team with all these other losers around, can't play footy.

Josh: Yeah, but I can.

Ryan: Yeah. So it would be I think that—

Tommy: Do you need to have to communicate your strengths? Like, if you're in a team where there's someone who has a similar strength to you, does it become a game of who has the better strength?

Ryan: Oh, well, that probably— that would be a thing. I mean, I think luckily in the team that I'm in, where we've got a pretty diverse, a good mix and balance of strengths.

Tommy: What about something more universal, like being the funny guy? Yeah. So say if I want to be the funny guy, but Tommy also thinks that he's the funny guy.

Ryan: Yeah, that's tricky.

Tommy: So like, how do you work out those like more sort of holistic or themes in regards to like, hey, in a team there can be more than one funny person?

Ryan: Definitely. Yeah.

Tommy: And so then what's the— how do you then deconstruct it to the point where you're getting individual strengths that can work together?

Ryan: Well, I think then And that's sort of like a radio skill, which is just generosity, like generous performing where you— where if you— obviously the funnier you both are, the better the show is going to be and the more successful it is. So, the worst case scenario is both of you just trying to be the funniest individually and it becomes competitive. That's never fun.

Tommy: Well, I think that's what's good about like, we're not comedians. We're not even a comedy podcast. So it does take the pressure off a little bit.

Ryan: Totally. For sure. But if— but the better way to do it would be like, how can I make— you're like, how can I make Tommy funnier?

Tommy: Yeah, I could write his jokes.

Ryan: Yeah. I mean, that's where like—

Tommy: you should. I'll have to feed him lines. Right, Tommy, before we start, here's 20 different bits. Now just you try and do them and I'll laugh at them.

Josh: He's actually done that before, given me a bit and I've delivered it way better than he did.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: Then he does his own bit and it bombs.

Tommy: Yeah, it never goes well.

Ryan: What was the bit? Okay, what was it? Hernando's.

Josh: There's some Nando's bits. There's a bunch of times.

Ryan: You write bits?

Tommy: I've done some bits.

Josh: He's the bits guy, but then bombs on the bits.

Tommy: So what we did at Nando's, so we were emceeing a Nando's event and I'm like, well, I need some bits. And so I was like, okay, I want to do a bit on peri bastings and how hot they are.

Ryan: Yes, of course.

Tommy: And so what the bit was, was I was going to say, okay everyone, I just thought I'd cheque the temperature in the room.

Ryan: Yep.

Tommy: Have we got any lemon and herbs in the room? Who loves lemon and herb? And I went through them all.

Ryan: Oh yeah.

Tommy: The thing is, I was panicked. I was panicked. And so that bit came out.

Ryan: Oh yeah.

Tommy: Hey everyone, welcome. I was just talking to Kat from Nando's and we were over at the sauces. And so I was thinking about what sauce you like. And so the whole temperature bit went away.

Ryan: And then did that, but did the audience know that you were kind of like No, they didn't know it was a bit. They thought it was just general like improv conversation.

Josh: But I think what we've built is something where we can in the moment get meta about the shit that we fucked up or what's happening.

Ryan: The Nandos think we didn't though.

Josh: Not there, but post. It's like, so the storey actually comes from it. It's funny that you did that.

Tommy: At EP500 I got to do the temperature bit, how it was meant to be, because Nandos was catering the event. And so I got to—

Ryan: The event that they were—

Tommy: The EP500.

Ryan: So afterwards.

Tommy: So we did the event for them. For some influencers, hashtag influencers. And then the following 2 weeks later they were there. And so I got to do the bit in its entirety and it went really well. It went really well.

Josh: It was a supportive crowd.

Tommy: Well, they'd heard the trauma of like After and all that sort of thing.

Josh: Personal wins in your career versus the ones where you've been in the creative team. So working with Radio Karate and the success you guys have had, but then the radio show that you land, which Which one felt bigger and which one was more satisfying at an individual level or a team?

Ryan: Do you mean Radio Karate or the radio show?

Tommy: Or even more like individual stuff, even like looking at the stuff that you've done with Clear 4 or even—

Ryan: Well, Rove was probably like being on the Rove Show was probably, probably one of my favourite things because that was a— it was this sort of weird time where I had this really great platform but this strange level of freedom to explore what I was— what I could actually do. That was, I mean, individually but also with Tim. Like, Tim and I made all of the segments I did. We made them together. And that was a really good learning thing. And so I think from the start of when I was on Rove till the end of when I was on Rove, I developed what felt like a style of sorts, at least for that point in my life. And that was great. That was really fun. But then from the team point of view, doing True Story was pretty amazing because that was a huge collaborative that's like hundreds of people throughout the life of the show that you get to collaborate on. And now we're, 'cause we're now selling it to other countries who are making it themselves, we get to kind of travel and go to these countries and like consult on their versions of True Story. So from that point of view, that was a really fun team thing.

Tommy: What happens to creativity and comedy when you get older? Like as you get, Has it changed?

Josh: Gets dirtier.

Tommy: Yeah, real filthy. Real filthy.

Ryan: Creativity and comedy.

Tommy: And so I think it like, I guess I was just imagining those Rove days of you and Tim just with the camera going out and being zany and just fucking getting in, getting out there versus the posture you would bring to it now.

Ryan: Well, I guess the more you learn, the more, maybe the more cautious you are. And so when you're starting out, whether you're younger or not, but when you're starting out, you kind of throw caution to the wind a little bit because you don't know what you don't know yet. And as soon as you do know it, then that's another box you have to tick before you start.

Josh: Yeah.

Ryan: So, I mean, we're still able to do like Cliff is, is like, believe it or not, we were throwing caution to the wind with Cliff. There wasn't a lot of consideration that went into Cliff except for a shopping trip at Kmart where I bought a wig and some pajamas. But other than that.

Tommy: But does it get a little bit harder, do you think, or no?

Ryan: No, it doesn't get harder. It just changes a little bit. If anything, some of it gets easier, 'cause you kind of know how to do it more, and you know what you need, and you know why something's not working. You can fix it, and it doesn't become stressful. It becomes like an exciting challenge to fix something.

Tommy: What does holiday Ryan do that local Melbourne Ryan doesn't do?

Josh: Stomp people.

Tommy: No, he doesn't.

Ryan: No, I stomp in Melbourne. Yeah, shouldn't tell anyone, but I am a pretty regular stomper. Other than that, I don't know, I guess you see people that you wouldn't normally see. It's like your routine's completely changed, and especially being here, even though I've only been here for a couple of days, it's— the pace is very different.

Tommy: Do you feel like you're more adventurous? Do you go out more? Are you—

Ryan: It's the same, I think. I think it's pretty similar.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, I don't feel like it's that much different, to be honest, except for obviously where you are. But because I don't have children or anything like that, I'm— it's sort of a similar sort of thing.

Tommy: Yeah. And so, you were— you spent how long in New York? How long were you guys there?

Ryan: We were there for 4 months in 2011 and We did a bit of travel around, but it was, yeah, that was a great time. Stressful, but that was a great time doing gap year there.

Tommy: Did you feel like you lived there or did it always feel temporary?

Ryan: No, I think there was a time where we felt like we lived there because we were working so hard and really got a sense of what you think, what I think that most New Yorkers do, which is just work so much and then go out for dinner at 9 or 10 and then get up and just do it all again. It's like, I mean, here's the same, you get the sense that people are just working so hard. So many emails going around.

Tommy: It's—

Ryan: people treat email like text here.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: We caught up with someone yesterday who said that they'd been in meetings since 8 AM. It was 5 PM when we finished with them and they hadn't even started their emails. It's like, that's— yeah, then you're getting into the flow. Yeah, after, when you get home.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, that's— some people love that as a regular thing. I'm not really— I need the balance of not working and working, like the constant grind is not really for me.

Tommy: Yeah. Is there anything that you took from that New York experience that you actually brought into your work ethic or just your lifestyle? Eating pizza?

Ryan: Yeah, well, I think it was because working in a different city can be a little bit bit confronting or scary, or you get that kind of cultural shock. But then, at least in TV, you realise pretty quickly, even though we were working in New York with American crews and stuff, you realise that they know it, they're all making it up like we are. Like, no one really knows what they're doing, even though they might put on a persona of knowing exactly what's going on, like, with confidence. You find out pretty quickly that 'You're full of shit.' And so, is the confidence good or bad?

Tommy: Like, do you walk around with more confidence, or do you think that—

Ryan: Well, it just, it made us realise that, oh, we're actually, we're actually doing okay. We know just as much as they do in a lot of cases, and without wanting to sound like arrogant or anything, but everyone, once you do something for a while, you just figure out how things work. But there was certainly when going over to New York I certainly had a feeling of like, oh God, this is America. Like, they're going to be— everyone's going to be the best in the world at what they do. And then you realize, oh, they're all just like Australian crews. It's just the same.

Tommy: But also sometimes not even as well-rounded because like they don't have to— like they can be very specific in the roles. Whereas I guess in Australia, like filmmakers, you have to be good at heaps of different things.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, yeah.

Ryan: I mean, that's certainly a thing. I think even like, even being here a couple of days, in Australia, especially now, there's much, it's much more of a culture of if you're a creator, you've probably come up making, doing everything. You probably know how to edit a bit.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: We know a bit of writing and you've done all different things. But here, maybe it's changing, but certainly the tradition in America is it's very unionised and you're a writer or you're an editor, and you rarely cross over. Yeah, like the writer-directors are in that indie world, and I guess it's— they're getting more into Marvel and those big blockbuster things now, but, but more often than not, especially in television, it's very segregated. Very— as opposed to like Australia or England, which is very much like, if you write a TV show, it's usually one writer or two writers who've created it, and then they write the whole thing, and then they're the people who make it, but in America it's like a writer's room of 10 people.

Tommy: So how much are you writing?

Ryan: Generally speaking? At the moment, a lot, because I'm sort of like hurriedly trying to finish this script while I'm over here. But even back home, I write a fair bit. Yeah, it's sort of like that, my happiest time is writing.

Josh: When's your best writing happen, do you think?

Ryan: In cafes. Yeah, yeah, when I work in cafes, I, for some reason, that that's a good inspiring place for me. Yeah.

Josh: Yeah, I love the cafes. Maybe it's like the just everything's happening around you. You can zone in on your—

Ryan: Yeah, it also—

Josh: Stimulation.

Ryan: And people can kind of almost see your screen. So I feel guilty if I'm on the internet. So I feel like if people can kind of walk past and see that I'm fucking around, I feel guilty for not working. Whereas if I'm at home, I'll get distracted.

Josh: Do you feel inspired in a place like Los Angeles to write more?

Ryan: Yeah, well, definitely, definitely, because everyone— you just see everyone doing a lot. Yeah. And there's just so much more opportunity. Well, there's more chairs.

Josh: Yeah, I saw— I mean, we went to a cafe to meet a mate the other morning, and I saw one person doing an edit, another person over here writing. It looked like they were scriptwriting in that scriptwriting program. It is everywhere.

Tommy: We saw someone with the new AirPods. I mean, it's the place to be.

Ryan: Yeah, I'd be interested to see that.

Tommy: Yeah, well, they look quite good. Our ones look of fucking shit now. I nearly threw them off the cliff.

Ryan: You should have.

Josh: Welcome to the Big Smog.

Tommy: Yes, definitely.

Josh: Mate, thank you for coming on the show.

Ryan: Well, 5:11, it finally got here.

Tommy: Yeah, we did it. Now we've got to walk all the way down.

Ryan: I think I'll just stay.

Tommy: I'll stay up here. It's The Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, you can also share if you like the show on Instagram, tag The Daily Talk Show. Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys.

Josh: See you guys.

Ryan: And if you want any of these flyers, just write in because we'll have a bunch of these.

Josh: The annoying.

Tommy: Yeah. You don't realise until you're doing a podcast how many flies there are.

Ryan: In podcasts generally?

Tommy: I feel like being here standing still, all of a sudden you become more self-conscious.

Ryan: You always hear Mark Maron complain about the flies in his garage.

Tommy: Catch you guys. See you guys.