Andy Lee On The Business Of Doing What You Love

Andy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 454.

Tommy: It's Fat Fridays and we've got Andy Lee in the building.

Andy: Nice to be here on Fat Fridays, guys.

Tommy: Pumped to have you here. We were thinking about what we'd do today. We've been trying to almost put off a Fat Friday because we've been blowing out a little too much outside of Fat Friday.

Andy: I actually listened to a podcast about dieting on the way here. So you're pumped for Fat Friday. I'm full of all the things we shouldn't be doing. Friday, but I'm going to put that aside. Oh, good, good.

Josh: What was the, what was the wisdom that you got from the, that podcast?

Andy: It sounds like that I've been worried about my weight, doesn't it? That I'm just seeking out, you know. No, it was, I, there was a, a podcast that basically different experts come and talk about whatever they're an expert in, and it was dieting, this one that I was listening to. And essentially the fad diets, they were critiquing all of them, but they were saying you don't have to go wild. Yeah, just it's a smaller increment is a better plan than saying I'm going to half my body weight. No one ever gets there. That's actually pretty dangerous.

Tommy: The 80/20 rule is great, but we're on 80% shit, 20% good stuff at the moment. I'll bring out the shit right now.

Andy: Okay, great. Fat Friday.

Tommy: So these have some storeys behind them.

Andy: Oh my gosh, both of them I love. Oh, what are they? I mean, this is an unpaid endorsement. It's always the worst type of endorsement. But Snickers ice creams and crunchy ice creams.

Tommy: Yes.

Andy: Long history with both.

Josh: Well, yeah, the Snickers, I feel like I owe you a few because when I was working at the radio station, you somehow received a massive freezer full of these things and I would have been smashing at least 6 a day.

Tommy: And the funny thing is Josh and I didn't work together at the radio station, but we worked at the radio station and then I, the amount I punished.

Andy: Yes. And then he's, he's the kicker though, that we had the radio station freezer, Snickers freezer, and then I had one freezer at home as well that was constantly getting stocked. And the amount of them I ate, to the point where I had to say, you gotta, you gotta get rid of this.

Josh: Um, how long did that take before you got to that point?

Andy: So we, it was back in the day where I had a lot of parties, so like it would, I'd find particularly at 4 in the morning half-eaten ice cream Snickers around the house everywhere. It was kind of the place everyone would would end up on their way home half eating one and then just kind of leaving. But yeah, we— it took about a year. I had it for about a year and a bit before I ordered it out of the house.

Tommy: Mate, we needed to get our biscuit jar out of this place because we were eating that.

Josh: We finished it in a week.

Tommy: So a lot of Snickers freezer.

Josh: We've been fucked.

Andy: They went off the shelf for a while. Yeah, they disappeared.

Josh: Do you know what happened?

Andy: I don't know.

Tommy: I mean, aren't you the spokesperson for them?

Andy: Use by date? No, these are 2006.

Josh: These are actually from that freezer. I'm stuck piling them at home.

Andy: So I was devastated. And then we— that's when they brought them back out. That was the triumph because I used to eat them like when I was kind of between 16 and 20 was when I ate them and then they went away. And then when they came back, I championed them so badly or wildly, wildly, wildly. So that's when they sent me the Fridge.

Tommy: So you didn't ask for it. They just all of a sudden, it's in. Yeah.

Josh: So are they a bit triggering now? Like, could you not? Eat one of these?

Andy: No, I'm back. I think it's on my 5-year cycle. I'm back. Yeah, I'd love one.

Josh: So Jack Post told us that because we were asking him, uh, what snacks you like. Yes, please. And he said the Crunchie. I don't know the connection with the Crunchie. Do you just— I haven't had one before.

Andy: So I— when I, um, when I went off these, when, um, yeah, and, uh, I, I, I went on to them.

Tommy: You replaced an addiction with an addiction.

Josh: From one diet to another diet.

Andy: Yeah, these had done their run and I was like, all right, need something else. Yeah, the Crunchies played a big part of my life. Again, they weren't— so the Mars ice cream.

Josh: Can I start?

Andy: Yeah, sure. I'll hold this for a bit.

Tommy: I'll talk soon, guys. You can then get into it.

Andy: From memory, the Mars ice cream was the first one to come out, and I'm going to call it '95.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Yeah. Wow.

Andy: Maybe '94. And so, and maybe '97 over there can actually Google it and correct me. But in Australia, Snickers ice creams shortly after. Cherry Ripe ice creams came after that, died pretty quickly.

Josh: Didn't—

Andy: no one really liked them.

Tommy: I didn't see it.

Andy: Yeah, the Bounty ice cream was also an important one, but again, it died. Crunchies came last, interesting, but had the best staying power. They actually stayed around longer.

Tommy: Timing?

Andy: I mean, well, timing, you'd say worst timing. I mean, the last mover— normally it's the first mover advantage. You think about Red Bull. Yeah, um, you get in, you attack the market.

Josh: I was just seeing the Red Bull fridge at the radio station.

Tommy: I mean, while we're on the topic of freebies, we've put it out on our podcast and in the show notes, our PO box. I'll show you what we got. But this was something that came in a, uh, just like this. It was a glitter bomb. Someone said the worst, a PO box, a glitter bomb. I know, uh, your profile pic on Insta is a PO box address. Yep. So you, you're up for getting sent stuff.

Andy: Yeah. Um, yeah, I originally only got into Instagram because I saw all these people getting free stuff and I didn't understand Instagram and I thought, this is a bit weird. So as a joke, I put out, hey, I've started Instagram to get free stuff. I only want free stuff. Things I don't want to use, I'll give to followers. And then put the PO box up. And it became weird for me when I started getting really good things that I was actually enjoying.

Josh: You got TVs.

Andy: I got a 75-inch Samsung television that would have been like 3 or 4 grand. And then I asked for a new bed because—

Josh: Golf clubs.

Andy: Yeah, some golf clubs, everything. So they're flying in. And that's when I started a bit of a crisis in my head. It's like, actually, I'm loving this. I'm high on this Instagram, you know, supposed influencer thing. But I'm also hating myself because this is the idea. I was meant to parody these people and now I am one of them. So, I haven't been back to the PO box for a while, but they ring me constantly saying, you cannot use this as a storage facility. We have got so many parcels there and it's all, they're all sitting there at some point. So, at some point I'll go through them all and I've been just giving them away to followers. Don't really care anymore. But all they end up at the Royal Children's Hospital.

Tommy: Oh, that's nice. Have you felt guilty as to when you get something that you feel like you need to actually put out a post?

Andy: No, I thought, I thought of that for a while. I was like, oh no, this person's gone to the effort. And but then I'm like, I mean, also at the time I had maybe 200 followers, so it didn't really matter. It was funny.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: And, um, and now with more followers, I'm like, do my, do my followers really, really want to see this?

Tommy: Yeah.

Andy: Or is this really how easy it is for someone to sell a product now, just send it to me and I'm going to market it for them? So I do choose a little bit wisely.

Tommy: Look, we don't get a lot, so we're happy to just exchange your PO box. We'll do a profile photo, you can— and then we'll sort it. We'll be generous.

Josh: Like Mr. 97, we'll look after it, do all the admin. You can find the good stuff. You can have a list of things, golf-related stuff we can give to you.

Andy: That's probably all I want, just the golf stuff. The rest of it, you guys can go nuts.

Josh: Tees.

Andy: You love your golf, don't you, Josh?

Josh: Actually, I had a handicap when I was a like when I was a kid, I got— I used to play 6 times a week. That's how like crazy I was.

Tommy: But you were in school?

Andy: Or—

Josh: yeah, so I was like, I would do a player then. No, horrendous, because I said I had a handicap. I never said what it was.

Andy: It wasn't—

Josh: it was 32 because that was the highest. Yeah.

Tommy: What's the— what's a good—

Josh: I mean, scratch is— are you scratch? No. 5 or 6? Um, 9?

Andy: 8.

Tommy: I feel like— I feel like you've got a good balance of, um, hobbies. We've been talking quite a bit this week just about getting older and you're kind of losing your hobby. Yeah, right. And whether it be—

Andy: what was your habit? What's your hobby that you've lost?

Tommy: Ah, no, look, skateboarding and stuff like that. I've got an electric skateboard and I, and I was on it this morning with my son and he's in between my legs. He's 2 and a half and he's just a little madman, loves it. And so I'm currently taking him to the skate park and things like that where I spent majority of my, my— I did my schooling there, but it's I'm almost living vicariously through him. That was a great crunch with the end of the packet.

Andy: I made the—

Tommy: It's really good.

Josh: This is the problem with Fat Fridays. This is on the easier end of eating. Sometimes when we have burgers or stuff like that—

Tommy: We did a full burger last week.

Josh: It was an absolute nightmare, especially we had handheld mics.

Tommy: So, and Josh has talked a lot about, I want to take up something, but I feel like hobbies require this sort of almost this bit where you don't need to try too hard. It just comes really naturally or you gravitate towards it. So then you just do it and you don't feel like you're doing much. You've got golf, cricket.

Andy: Yeah, I mean, Hamish is a great example of who— the search for a hobby was deep for him. And now he's found cycling, he's really good at it, and he's loved it, and he is addicted to it. But like, there are times where, you know, he'd come and go, I've got— I bought scuba gear, I'm going to be a scuba. I was like, no, you know, mate, just go hire it.

Tommy: What the hell are you doing?

Andy: You know, like that kind of— he's that kind of impulse in the search for a hobby. Um, So, yeah, I think it's true. It's like, let the hobby come to you. Go and try some stuff. But certainly, you don't have to announce to the world that you're going to do this.

Josh: Well, what about at the age of 29? What sport should I get into? Not as a player, but as a spectator. You're into the cricket stuff.

Andy: I'm into, yeah, nearly all sports, really.

Josh: So, what is a good— Because I was thinking—

Andy: Do you like AFL?

Josh: Yeah. So, we went to a game the other day. Loved it.

Tommy: Was that your first game? No, no. I know you'd been. Yeah, I've been to like maybe half a dozen in my life.

Josh: But the—

Andy: Josh, you're going to strike me as the guy that's going to go, this is what I'm into, and I'm going to go, I haven't heard of that.

Josh: Well, so this is the thing. Well, so I was thinking like hockey.

Andy: Yeah, well, I love hockey.

Josh: Oh, really?

Andy: Yeah. So, I still play hockey.

Josh: Okay.

Andy: Ice hockey? No, field hockey. Yeah. And this is timely, man, because in 2 weeks' time they're starting a new national hockey tournament.

Josh: Oh, this is good. This sounds very planned.

Andy: Yeah, it wasn't. There's a new hockey tournament. Hockey is Australia are bringing out a tournament, a big bash-like league called Hockey One. Starts the day after the AFL Grand Final. And it's, uh, yeah, you could—

Josh: where are we going?

Andy: You could go to the State Netball and Hockey Centre.

Josh: That's where they do the basketball too, isn't it? Uh, not as much. Maybe they used to. They might have, because I used to think it was sad that the, the National Basketball League was at like a hockey and netball centre.

Andy: Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, they might have been sent off to them, but now they— I mean, now the basketball's You know, high sense.

Josh: Yeah. What about TV? What about like a TV spectator sport?

Andy: Well, hockey one, they're hoping you can get it on KO, but I mean, I love AFL. I love cricket.

Josh: But I get into it always at the final, so I'm into it now.

Andy: Yes. But do you have a team?

Josh: Well, when I was really young, it was the Bombers, and then a mate could get Medallion Club access and he went for the Saints. So it was when I was in high school, I went for the Saints.

Tommy: Not a true fan. A true fan does.

Josh: And so that's what I understand that. So I feel the concern I have is that I've got no room to move. I've used two teams up.

Andy: Yeah.

Josh: It seems a little bit disingenuous.

Tommy: What about coming to grips with it's just not your thing? Because you've got your teams.

Josh: I want a thing though. Like I was thinking baseball, Major League Baseball.

Andy: All right. Okay. Okay. So that's very niche, but you can watch. But that's, I mean, that's during the day normally.

Josh: So I like the idea of having it on the TV. Well, yeah, but because we do our own thing, so I love the idea of having, um, yeah, a TV and it's all high definition, like super crisp if you've ever seen it.

Andy: Great. I have. I love, I mean, I've got, I brag for the Cardinals, so St. Louis, they've had a good history.

Josh: But, um, yeah, I think, I think you're already beating me on the, you know about the Cardinals.

Andy: I only know he's a sports guy.

Tommy: He's a sports guy.

Josh: I went to a Yankee stadium, like went to Yankee Stadium and I actually got a complex because I wore a New York Yankees hat. Yeah. In New York. And they just, they target you on the street and they say, oh yeah, Yankees.

Andy: Yeah, Yankees. I mean, if you wear the Mets, people don't— I mean, they're more New Manhattan, for instance, more about, more about the Yankees.

Tommy: Since finishing up, um, 5 Day a Week, Hamish and Andy, um, you would think more, more time— I don't know your schedule, but more time means you gravitate towards doing more things like hobbies. Is that what you've done?

Andy: Uh, I certainly— I play a lot more golf. Am I doing more hobbies? I'm about to, um, go for my pilot's licence to be a kind of sick— if I fly.

Josh: Yeah, so Keegs does that, the radio station. He was up really doing all that.

Andy: Yeah, that makes me a little nervous because, um, because Keegs, um, God love him, we love Keegs, uh, but he I think it was the R&B Friday's Top 100 countdown.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: And it got to like just before our show one day and it got to quarter to 4 and he realised he had 10 songs still to go and people were on the Facebook going and Instagram going, you're not going to make it, man. You're not going to make it. And it just got too much for him. He left the studio. Really? Cakes. Cakes. So in an emergency, he just, he just went. No, I can't. People ringing up not happy because he was cutting a few songs short.

Tommy: Where's Konski when you need him?

Andy: Exactly. That's what should have happened. So Keegs left the studio, just got too much for him. He went out and then someone else had to come in, a copilot, if you will. So I worry again, if Keegs can fly planes in pressure situations, I'm just— I don't want him to leave the cockpit.

Tommy: So what gets you to go, I want to do my— I want to do the course, I want to get these hours?

Andy: I like the idea of being able to go anywhere. I just, I do like that concept.

Josh: Such a cool idea.

Andy: And helicopters was what I originally thought about. But the range that you can get on helicopter, it's not that far and they're a lot more dangerous. And so I thought, yeah, well, maybe I'll try and get a light plane going because then you can, you know, who wants to have lunch on King Island? Let's go down and have a steak and some cheese in the middle of Bass Strait. And that's, that's kind of what's enticed me to go for it.

Tommy: Well, light aircraft isn't ridiculously expensive. I had a client when I was at PT who had— his dad had one and he had his licence and him and his dad would just go, yeah, doing that kind of stuff.

Andy: Yeah, you can, you can buy a small plane for, you know, less than a luxury car. Crazy. Then it's like, which seems—

Josh: it's a real povvo plane.

Andy: No heated seats.

Tommy: Yeah, may come down. I mean, is that I mean, you could live your life in fear or you could do things like that, I guess. Yeah.

Andy: Well, I mean, so that's— I do like trying things and that was one thing I loved and I'm sure Hayne was the same about doing the radio show is things would present themselves and you'd go, oh, this will be funny if I really try. Now, I might not succeed, but this would be more fun. For instance, I got my bus licence so we could drive our band, our radio band around the country. And that was great going, getting my— heavy rigid vehicle licence and learning about articulated trucks and stuff like that. And then, you know, tap dancing to go, you know, it was solely tap dancing because I knew it'd be funnier if it was half good at it. So yeah, certainly the radio show allowed you to try a lot of things, which I loved.

Josh: The plane thing, you did the, the Round Australia tour with it on a plane. Did you, were you asking the pilot a lot of questions?

Andy: No, we were mainly sitting out there because we were in private jets there, which is very different to two propellers going. And so Hamon and I were mainly just drinking in the back.

Josh: Are you allowed to, like, if it's a private plane, I'm guessing you can have the cockpit open. Yeah, yeah.

Andy: You can go have a little look and, and they can't stand it. No pilot's meant to allow you to have a fly.

Tommy: But you were sitting on his lap eating your Snickers.

Andy: But in the past I'm not saying on that trip, but in the past some pilots have loosened that rule, which has been fun.

Tommy: What about— I went to Bali when I was grade 6.

Josh: You're bragging.

Tommy: No, when I was— Yeah, Grandma died. We got an inheritance. We spent it on going to Bali.

Josh: 1998.

Tommy: But I remember Garuda, the door open, kids coming up, sitting in there.

Andy: Yes.

Tommy: Do you remember that?

Andy: Yeah. Yeah. Before— Well, kind of before September 11th. The, the, the cockpit was as much of a museum or an interactive experience for passengers as it was for any people going in all the time.

Tommy: Yeah.

Andy: Yeah. And then, you know, that's obviously it was a bad day for, for everyone in Manhattan and all the lives lost, but also a bad day for pilot access.

Josh: Yeah. The, the blimp that you went in.

Andy: Yeah.

Josh: We were talking about blimps the other day. They're meant to be quite dangerous.

Andy: The blimps. The blimp felt— yeah, it didn't feel that safe because it's so small. Like, is it?

Josh: It looks fucking huge. I guess the actual balloon is a little—

Andy: the cockpit's more about this big as this table, maybe.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: So you are 50 metres by 50.

Tommy: We got a big studio, we're doing well.

Andy: I would say kind of 2 metres by 3 metres or 4 meters.

Josh: So you—

Andy: it feels like you're really just in a little box hanging off the bottom of a balloon.

Tommy: Which you are.

Andy: Well, it probably is a matchbox off the bottom of a balloon as far as like kind of the dimensions of it. So that doesn't feel as safe. And I mean, obviously you got your motor, but the winds, if the wind gets up, it's hard to go against it because it's such a big—

Josh: How's it working? Is it paddles? Like, how do they steer the thing?

Andy: We're all cycling.

Josh: I mean, we don't know. It's a dangerous thing that sounds right.

Tommy: No, James Bond, one of the old school.

Josh: So you're referencing James Bond.

Tommy: Yeah, but I remember hearing the engine, there was like, it's an engine stack.

Andy: It's just a fan with a rudder, essentially.

Tommy: Yeah.

Andy: Yeah. So kind of like a hovercraft, the way that there's a big fan at the back of the rudder.

Tommy: We talk about ABC, always be contenting. And I felt like it's actual acronym. I've always felt that having something like making a video has sort of giving me a bit of Dutch courage. It's like, yeah, I'll do it if it's filmed. I mean, you've talked about a few things that you've done. Yeah, the tall ship as well, the jet, the boat.

Andy: Hamon and I have got a new travel show coming out and we always talk about the courage that A, someone filming it doing, but B, your mates from uni filming it doing. So they're going, come on, yeah, off you go. And so you just absolutely, under those circumstances, of course we want to present a much braver version of myself, or much more exciting, because that's, that's, that's, that's better for television. And also that is a little bit of a motivator.

Tommy: Well, you've got the moment where you decide to do it. It's almost like it takes away that sort of defence mechanism or the barrier, because it's like you step into it. You jump off something, bungee jump, it's like you need to have removed the constant thought of the action of just tipping over a 60-meter drop.

Andy: And I think for, for me personally, it's, it's a reason. It adds a reason to do it. So if we're filming it for television, I'm like, this will be fun. It's going to be funny normally, but like, this is funny, this is fun, this, this will be great. Let's just do it. Where if I was there by myself, you go, oh, we're going to really risk our lives. Just, I mean, it's that little extra reason to do it. Shouldn't be. There should be no reason. Like, it shouldn't be like, yeah, it's because it's on telly, make sure you risk your life.

Josh: But that's like The Bachelor. Like, he's always looking like a top dog, like every single Bachelor. And it's, I guess like it's being filmed all the time, they're always their best self.

Andy: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Just stick your chest out, Josh. They'll be mistaken you for the Bachelor, I tell you what. I remember Jules Lund telling me early days, like he once bungee jumped off a helicopter, so he's still stuck to the helicopter.

Andy: Wow.

Tommy: But then they started—

Andy: That'd be more scary. I reckon that'd be more scary for the helicopter driver.

Tommy: Well, I mean, Jules weighs a bit, so that's what you get.

Andy: That kind of Helicopters are always kind of, they can be moved around a bit. That trajectory, I reckon that would be—

Tommy: If you went up and then it bungeed it and then shoved it back up.

Josh: No, but just think about the weight, like you're losing the weight and then gaining the weight.

Andy: Yeah.

Josh: Will Smith did it for his 50th birthday.

Tommy: Oh, that's right.

Andy: Off a helicopter.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Over the Grand Canyon.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Jules then said they stopped doing like Getaway, their insurance policies, they pulled back. Like you guys, I remember early days did some crazy stuff. Was there a point where it was like, you boys need to settle down?

Josh: It's—

Andy: there's a couple where they got— I remember the radio station particularly got angry with us in croc-infested waters in Northern Territory where I'd lost a bet and had to swim across this, this, this creek where crocs, salt, salty crocs are in, which I was nervous about. But, um, ABC. But I suppose that in retrospect I mean, I wouldn't do that now because— but you're young and, you know, you're excited. And it wasn't about the content. It was just— it just seemed fun. You take more risks when you're younger. And yeah, I don't know. I'm sure it's chemical. I'm sure there's something in our brains as we get older, we go, we're not going to do that.

Josh: Self-preservation.

Andy: Yes.

Tommy: And there's something in the brain of the risk. It's like you develop an area that sort of identifies risk. This one guy told me once when I was being a little shit. Yeah, but Hamish putting his hand into the ant trap.

Andy: Yeah.

Tommy: Like, you know what's going to happen, right?

Andy: Or did you know? Well, not really. We kind of both thought it would be not as bad. I mean, we got told it was the worst pain in the world, but we're like, but what does that mean? What does that mean?

Josh: You know, you like spicy stuff. Like, any time I see anyone eat chilli. Yeah, it's like, I'm sure I could do that.

Andy: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: I wouldn't. It would be horrendous.

Andy: It's that kind of strange thing. So with that one in particular, there's this great bit of audio. The camera is on the ground, so there's no vision of it, but you can hear Hamish and I chatting. And we didn't know who was going to have to put their hands in the gloves. Bullet ant gloves at that point were in the middle of the Amazon, for people who don't know. And that we're basically— they sew ants into these gloves, and it's a coming-of-age ceremony, a ritual where young men have to put their hands in these gloves for a couple of minutes and they get stung. And it's called a bullet ant because it feels like you've been shot. That's the sting.

Tommy: Same.

Andy: And I sitting there, and, and it's the last— we know we put like one of the more dangerous things in our shoot on the last day, just because if we get hurt, we could at least— we've got the rest of the show. And so this is great audio of Hamish and I going, oh mate, this is gonna be great. We'll fix this up, we'll do then head back, we'll probably get a beer by 6, and then I don't know, we'll go, let's go around with the guys and probably hit the town. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And then Hamish goes, look, whoever gets it, just, you know, put it on, obviously flick it off when you, when you saw, bounce around a bit, but you know, and but But, you know, we don't have to go too hard. Yeah, of course, of course. Turns out he puts his hands in and the ants send out a pheromone to all the other ants to go, we're under attack. So, he gets about 200 stings in 2 seconds. So, he flicks it. It looks like on telly that he flicks it off immediately, but he's already been stung like a sewing machine. These ants are just sending down their little spikes on repeat. And he ends up on a morphine drip in the hospital for about 8 hours. It's very different to me having a beer with the guys going, so gee, that was a big day.

Josh: Yeah. You were just working on Perfect Holiday, the new TV show. Is, is there, is it a lot softer?

Andy: No, I don't think so.

Josh: Like it's, is it different? What's the difference?

Andy: It's certainly different. It's what, like, and you always kind of, I was, we're both really excited to travel again, but we're also wanted to make sure that there's an evolution to the show. Just going back and doing the same old trick has never really excited us. In our careers, we've always bounced around. Like, we did the radio show for that amount of time and then wanted to try something different. But yeah, this one, what I loved about it was the surprise. Like, we surprise each other every day with the activity. So I'll choose something for him and he chooses something for me, which is quite different to gap year.

Josh: He was getting right into it. Like, before he left, the bike ride, that stuff, the Vegas thing, like he had lists, like the amount of work that you guys were putting in.

Andy: Yeah, because you're just like, there's just some really fun things where you're going, I— this will be funnier the more work I put in. Or we just became obsessed with this story. Like, you're like— there's an example is there's a guy called Fenn who, um, he's an older guy, but when he was 80, he sold all his possessions and, um, bought treasure with it and has buried the treasure in the Rocky Mountains. And That the Rocky Mountains is huge. It goes over basically half of America. And he's left a poem describing where this— all the clues as to where this treasure was. And I just became obsessed with finding the treasure. And when, you know, you're on forums and stuff like that and, you know, and someone reaches out and goes, I need someone to help me get to this place because I can't afford it, but I think I know exactly where the treasure is. So, suddenly you're talking to these people. And yeah, like that's the kind of— it's just going to be funnier if and more fun the deeper you get in and the better chance you have of finding a treasure.

Tommy: Spoiler alert: Andy has so much gold on right now.

Andy: If you can't see him.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: The difference between Gap Year and this type of show, like, is this a format that you think that you would continue doing or is it—

Andy: Oh, I'd love to. I think same's the same, whether it's every year. You know, we've got— it's Tim who shoots with us now, general manager. He's got a family and he's got 3 kids, James got 2. So, you know, you've got to balance all these things up with just being away and etc. But yeah, it's, it certainly felt that way. And I would say that like because we knew we were preparing the ideas for each other, they're probably a little deeper creatively, the ideas. There's probably a little less like What I loved about Gap Year is we actually didn't prepare anything. Like, we would go, let's go and see this guy who says he can kill someone by shouting at them. And Japan, like, cool, that's all we need to know. Like, so you didn't need to really have— and wildness would happen. With this, it's just a slightly nuanced change where you go, oh, actually, I'm going to pick this because I know Hayne will love it, or Hayne will hate it, or we'll both just love this adventure. And you can prepare a couple of things and then see where it goes. So it's just a slightly different type of content.

Tommy: Filming a TV show across, you know, say 6 or 8 weeks, it's a bit of a sprint. You've got to get what you can. What do you like better? Something where you're sprinting, the pressure's on, or like when you were doing 5 Days, it's the evolution. You're coming back, you're showing up tomorrow. Yeah, it's a, you know, longer-term thing. You get your full what is it, the before survey. So you got a few breaks a year.

Andy: Yep.

Tommy: But really you've got this whole year to be playing with.

Andy: I mean, I feel like it's an interesting, interesting question because I just loved the variety, like the things that you get serviced by daily radio, which is connection with people calling in all the time. I just love talking to every, like everyday people and people sharing their stories. They always made it actually so much better and so much funnier. So you kind of miss that. And it didn't— it never felt like a grind at all. We loved it. But you could yearn for a different type of content or a different type of thing. And that's what TV does, because TV has got— you shoot for such a short amount of time and then the post-production and editing it and all that stuff, it takes so long. Like for True Story, for instance, it was like 14 months to make the series. So you kind of start the second one before you even finish the first one because you've got to find all the stories. And then Hamish and I would listen to them and then we'd go around, Hamish and Ryan and I would go and write them all. Then, then you crew up for to do all the reenactments as a drama, pre-production for that, shoot them, then posting that with editing. So it just took so long. And certainly there's times I'm like, gee, radio's easier than this. I can have an idea in the ad break and we can be doing it straight after versus all the prepping.

Josh: It seems like such a different beast. And you with True Story specifically, that was something that you you then took the idea and went on to try and sell it overseas. What is the process of selling a format? What's the— how does it even— how does it even work?

Tommy: And what are you selling?

Andy: Really simply, this— the format. And I mean, this, this is what you're doing now is a format. Like, it's, it's two guys that do a daily show every day, and this is the setup and that's the camera angle. So like, you would list that stuff. It's kind of pretty boring content probably, but you would— you, you list what's important to you as, as the and defining for the format. And then you just go, would anyone like to make their version? And there's a huge thing called MIPCOM, which is in Cannes in France, and it's a television sales conference where everyone in the world goes, buyers and sellers, and go, hey, this is The Masked Singer, this is The Block, this is, you know, and this is The Voice. And all those shows do the circles in those kind of sales conferences.

Tommy: What's the vibe at a place?

Josh: Have you been?

Andy: No, I've never been. Okay. Yeah. I know the vibe. We've had people that have gone on our path and look, it's hard because it's actually, it's people, it's getting more and more cutthroat that less people are going to it now. South by Southwest, the big music festival, they've actually got a sidearm for TV now as well because people go there and then they also, yeah, look at buying television. But content is so rich and it's not as seasonal as it used to be. Everyone used to stop in summer and stuff, but with Netflix Netflix and Disney Plus that will come out and Hulu overseas and Stan. All these things mean that content's constantly being acquired, which is a good thing for content creators, but it's a— it means that those big sales conferences not, not as strong because, um, don't play as big a role.

Tommy: Yeah, I feel like a lot of creatives don't think about their IP as a creative because it doesn't feel tangible, right? Before you've made a video, you've just got an idea. I know from— I've never spoken to you about it, but hearing about— I think a lot of people use Hamish and Andy and the, the business side of things as an example of we can own our own stuff. Hamish and Andy is the brand, you know. Can you talk us through the early, early days of deciding that, yeah, we're going to be our own entity?

Andy: Um, most of the decisions didn't ever come from like a business decision, like we could make money doing this. It was, it was pretty much I didn't love the way, or Haym didn't love the way something was being packaged or being portrayed. And so, and, and when you're in big radio stations, often they've got a, they've got a certain kind of imagery that they slap across every single, uh, show in there. And we wanted our show to feel different. And we, we went, when we first started at Fox FM, they were really at an all-time low. The, the ratings were really poor and they were trying to searching for anything to get out of the trouble. And so we specifically didn't want their branding. Like, so we talked to them about before we signed on to go, we wanted this, this type of branding. And so it was mainly not, not because we wanted to make our own brand, it was more just like we just wanted to distance ourselves from them a little bit. And we loved Martin Malloy. Like, I'm not sure if you guys, probably might be too young, but for Tony Martin, Mick Malloy, the biggest radio show in their time. And they kind of again had gone out and, and just didn't sound like Fox FM. And we're like, well, this— if, if we can just sound like ourselves, sound like we're making ourselves, you know, comfortable. And did the same with the television as well. Channel 9 were fantastic when they came across before gap year. They are also going poorly. And, um, and the same kind of speech from, um, there's a fella called David Gingell who was running Nine who caught up with Hamish Nye. He's just brilliant. Brilliant TV mind, and he was like, we know that we're struggling. We don't want to make you Channel 9 at all. That, that'd be the worst thing we could do. We want to make it look like you guys have just somehow stolen the receiver and you're broadcasting your show.

Tommy: Yeah.

Andy: And so that was cool because then we could put out our version of ourselves and the things we wanted to make. And it comes from trust from above. And then you realize, oh, we're creating a brand. Um, so, you know, obviously we're thinking about a bit more, but we fell into it a little bit.

Tommy: Would you say that, um, you would advise if a young person, you know, who's starting in the creative world, is it the way you'd encourage people to go?

Andy: Or— I don't know, because so, like, you know, probably about 10 years ago we ended up acquiring all our rights back and stuff, um, and, and running it ourselves, but there's times where I go, well, that's a lot of admin work, that's a lot of stuff. And there was times where it stunted our growth a little bit because we're getting caught up in, in things that you shouldn't really be worried about. Like, has the website got a sponsor? Josh, website costs a lot. Like, you know, even before, like, um, where YouTube became a better place for people to actually go and find, but we're creating a website and even running that and having enough power for it, like as in the video hosting, the players, video hosting, all those things, tens of thousands of dollars. So I was sitting there going, oh shit, we've taken all this back and now it's costing us more than we're making. So that became a conundrum. Yeah. And so I would say people often— we were at it on the TV side of things. We loved Working Dog. Who people don't know who they are. They do— have you been paying attention? They wrote The Castle and filmed The Castle. They're like, they're just gods, thank God you're here, etc. And we— and they were always their production company doing their own thing. And so I had in my head, we have to be this as well. And so the other guys, um, without really knowing what it entailed. And I think people have in their heads, no, we've got to own everything and so on, but not really knowing the work that comes with that responsibility. So it depends on where you are, I would say, with your career. You're also early on in your careers, very unlikely to be able to own it all because you've got no leverage. You've just, you know, we could have gone in at day one and gone, and we're doing this, and like, okay, piss off. Yeah, we'll go with Tommy and Josh for the drive home. Like, yeah, good call, actually.

Josh: We'll sell ourselves.

Andy: Do you know what I mean?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So it's like people said, we were talking the other day to someone who, they talk a lot about saying no for things. It's either the hell yes or no, which is very convenient when you're an executive that's established or you're in a position like you and Hamish where you've put in all of the work to the point where you have an abundance of opportunities.

Andy: Yes.

Josh: When you're getting started, you sort of can't say no that much. You have to say yes as much as you can, right?

Andy: It's a difficult one because we did say a lot of noz when we were starting as well. Yeah, but we, we— I don't know what it came from, but it also came from the fact that being best friends, you get to have this journey together and you can look at each other and go, oh mate, I don't really love this either.

Tommy: Do I?

Andy: Great, okay, let's just, let's just do something else. You know, you have that confidence, you hope that another opportunity will come past. But you know, of all the shows that Hamish or I, or and/or I have been asked to do over the years, there's probably like one that we said no to that went on to be a success. And I would say there's— I can think of probably 30 that we'd asked to do and not.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: And then you watch, you watch them when they go to air and you're like, either A, I'm glad I didn't do that, or B, maybe I would have done it differently. But you don't know the situation back behind the scenes. So I think when you don't have an audience, if there's elements of something that you would love doing and you're being true to yourself in, in performance, it doesn't have to be the whole thing but just a little bit. I think yeses are really good. But if it's something that you— it just doesn't sing to you— the worst— we had a, we had a show on Channel 7 called Hey Machine Andy, 2004, got cut after 6 weeks. Lucky it did because everyone, the press were like on our side saying, oh, you cut these young guys too, too early. It's really unfair. But the worst thing would have, could have happened if we just went on for 10 episodes and then everyone would have gone, oh, that wasn't very good, which it wasn't. And you wouldn't have had this backlash to give us a glow. Yeah. And after that was when we were like, this is someone else's show. They were writing jokes, telling us to do them. We had some input, but not really of over the whole look and feel.

Josh: So was that good or bad for your career?

Andy: It was great. Great that we got axed, but, and it was great for a learning curve, and it was the time we said, okay, from now on we're only going to do things that's under our banner. So incorporate our production company off the back of that. So I'm really grateful for it, but the worst— it's the worst feeling ever failing when it's not even your content. Yeah, if you're the face, yeah, of a failure, it's not even your idea, that is actually more, I reckon, more soul-destroying than if you never did it at all.

Josh: Is that, is that from a different time in regards to, say, 10, 15 years ago? It was, you had to, you're a presenter and then you would audition and you would get picked. It's this picking culture, whereas now, say, even website hosting, all those things, the barriers to entry are so low that you can do the podcast, you can make all that stuff. When you're speaking to young people, I'm guessing there's a bunch of people who see what you've done and want to emulate. So they started on Channel 31. Yep. And then they sort of work, try and, you know, similar to what you did with Working Dog or things like that, reverse engineer. What are you saying to them?

Andy: I think the best thing is just try stuff like just, just be by doing, not talking about it, just by doing and whatever it is like. And work out what you want to stand for. So like, so many people talk and get annoyed, oh, that person got that opportunity, I should have got that, all that kind of thing.

Tommy: I didn't really like that.

Andy: It's like they're trying things, and through trying things, you find out what you're good at or what sings to you. Now, whether that everyone loves that, but at least you're going, I'm going to find my niche. And of course, everyone starts copying other people and borrowing, you know, their favourite things. And Haman and I would be copying like our favourite British sketch shows, not like the actual sketch, but just vibes from it all. But then you develop what makes you, you just by trying things. And if you sit back and you don't try and don't put something out, and you can audition for things, if you don't get it, there's other ways to get stuff out. So yeah, I think, and, and try as much as possible when no one's listening or watching.

Tommy: Is it removing the, the eyes on outcome?

Andy: Yeah, I think absolutely. It's, it's, you learn far more from your failures than you do from your successes. So we will, we've learned, we review quite heavily, um, and not in like a beat ourselves up kind of way, but just go, oh gee, that didn't work. When we have a bad break on radio and you go, if it's, gee, that didn't work, wow, okay, let's talk about that tomorrow. Didn't want to ruin the vibe, kept going. It wasn't like we were down about it, it was just like, oh right, we reached, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we weren't successful. How did that work? And a really great example is like when we first started on Fox FM we were doing some phone topics that were probably a little bit hard to follow, um, and our boss was going, you've got to dumb it down. That's what they kept saying, you've got to dumb it down, it's too, it's too smart, it's too— it, you know, our listeners are this, they're not intelligent. And instead of going from like dialling it back to like 10% of the intellect we were hoping to go for, the level of joke, we're like, let's just pull it back to like 80, you know. And the next day we did that and it failed again. Like, all right, well, let's just pull it back to like 60 to make it a little bit more edible. And people started getting on to the point where we, we got a new type of listener because suddenly we were pulling people in from AM. People stopped listening to Darren Hinch because we were pitching things not the traditional FM level that everyone expects there to be. And so it was nice to fail. It's nice to go, okay, we know why, we've analysed why, but let's not— let's go to the opposite. Let's say we think there's something here, let's just keep dialling back and tinkering. And then by the end of the show, and with our podcast listeners now, they're just so smart. They're so— they're far smarter than I am, and their level of intellect and the level they put on jokes is just awesome.

Josh: So the rules of radio, like, we— a common bit of feedback we get from people is around like, uh, assume that people don't know what you're talking about. Reset, give context. And Tommy and I always talk about the fact that what we want to be doing is creating a conversation. Yeah. And we want it to feel like mateship because it is, but also have a bit of a level of FOMO. So yeah, when we do the podcast, we don't have to spend fucking 5 minutes resetting who Andy Lee is or anything like that. People will go and like, if they're international and don't know who you are, they'll Google. How many of those rules have you broken, or what are some of those classic things that you actually just don't believe in?

Andy: Yeah, we questioned every single one of them when we started and then realised we needed to add some more back in. Um, it, to me, with the resetting, if, if you, if they're going off the conversation analogy If a new person rolls in and we're in the middle of a conversation at the pub and stands there, I'll always go to them, oh, sorry, we're talking about the footy at the moment and last week's game, and then keep going.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: So I don't think it's wrong to, to reset, because if anyone joins a conversation, naturally in human behaviour is to either choose to let them in or go, well, you weren't here when we started, so suck eggs.

Josh: It's interesting because I think there's— that's the difference between that and This is Andy Lee. He's got a book. He's got this. He's got that. And I guess that's the difference is it's like this, the stiltedness of doing it in a way that's—

Andy: Totally agree with you.

Josh: Which I think is, which is difficult. I think that—

Andy: So we picked a level.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: Again, again, that degrees thing. It's not like this is wrong. We shouldn't do any of this. There's a reason why some of these tropes exist.

Tommy: Yeah.

Andy: Same with the TV.

Josh: It's also format as well. The thing— So the, the idea of the format of of, you know, you've only got short talk breaks, and so people are coming in, coming out. Yep. What we're talking about is no one's coming in and out of this show. They're either listening to the entirety of the thing or they're stopping halfway through. And so then it's that much bigger thing of longer arcs.

Andy: Yes.

Josh: And how, you know, is— has that been something that you've considered, how you communicate those longer form arcs?

Andy: Yeah, yeah. What It's a really— that's a, it's a, that's a tough one as well because there are some ideas for Hamish and I that went so deep into like— and it was that you're like, there's no way we can explain all this. Like, there's no way to reset it all. Um, so—

Josh: and isn't that some of the fun?

Andy: Like, it's our favourite stuff. Yeah, it's our favourite stuff. So like, with— it can, it can stem from— what's a good example? So With Hamish had a dream that he was playing a, a, a, like a— he had a dream about a song that he had written and he wanted to sing the song, write the song with me to bring back his dream. It turned out it was an Adam Levine song. He's like, yes, Adam Levine was in my dream. And he said the dream should— maybe it's a premonition. And the dream was Adam Levine from Maroon 5 coming to a disused water park and on our final show of the year and singing a song that we wrote together. And I was like, all right, cool. And then we heard that, um, they were just opening the new water park in Sydney. I'm like, well, that is a disused— and so all these parts of the dream actually started coming true. And so we kept talking about it for like 5, 6 months, culminating in the show finally being from the, the disused water park and 100 people. And people flew in from New Zealand to try and be there, knowing that if we just built it, Adam Levine come, but it became so hard to reset.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so what's the— and what's the learning from that then? Well, we just—

Andy: you—

Josh: what we did—

Andy: what you ended up doing is just giving, giving up on what— you don't have to reset from the start, you can just reset from where you're up to. Yeah, that was, that was our—

Josh: which is the show, which is— are you resetting one show from what you've already done, or like— because that's not big resets, that's not— this is the the start of where it all happened.

Andy: No, yeah, it's what we do. And sometimes we would say, fuck, this has become too complicated, like, to reset.

Tommy: Yeah, but we've booked Adam Levine.

Josh: Yeah, he's on his way.

Andy: So why don't we, um, like, another, another good example— maybe it's a simpler example than the Adam Levine one because that was very convoluted— but, um, Hamish put money on me to win Cleo Bachelor of the Year back in the day, and I won that And we bought, with the money we bought a greyhound. And then with that greyhound, we could predict winners. Like we used to put nuggets on plates and like with idol names above, like from Australian Idol and stuff. And he'd go and eat the nugget and he got it every time. Like it was just crazy. And then we started taking this greyhound on a national tour to race and the, and he started winning races.

Josh: You have like 5,000 people or something at a WA. Yeah.

Andy: Yeah. This is Fred Bassett.

Josh: Fred Bassett.

Tommy: Where is he today?

Andy: He's out on a farm.

Josh: He got adopted out on a farm. We know.

Andy: He got adopted out by the head of the greyhound racing, and he retired and went to a farm. And so, yeah, he's still running around, which is cool. But we decided to drop the whole money to how we acquired the dog, everything, and just went, we now own a greyhound and we're travelling around. Like, you could leave off things once you got to the next step that weren't important. And so that's how we kind of would cut down our resets, if that makes sense.

Tommy: So the storey's developed enough that it's, it's now its own story.

Andy: Yeah.

Tommy: Outside of the setup. Yeah, I love that.

Josh: You were asking about Mr. 97's name. Mm-hmm.

Tommy: So we've dropped that part. We don't tell anyone. No.

Josh: So the reason he's called Mr. 97, and I told Hamish this and he wasn't impressed, he got a 97 ENTA score. Oh yeah. Which I think is fucking— compared to Tommy and myself, it's very good, which is why we thought it's a good name. We're getting more mail.

Tommy: Maybe it might be mail or my wife.

Josh: Okay, great.

Tommy: Delivering mail.

Andy: 97 is great.

Josh: Hamish got like 98 something. Oh no.

Andy: Yeah, but he tells me all the time, but I choose not to remember. So, but yeah, I had 97. Bloody good.

Josh: How did you go?

Andy: I got 96.

Tommy: See, that's fine.

Josh: That's top quality stuff.

Andy: I think, again, it's kind of, it's kind of under the impression that everyone cares about our interests now, which I certainly didn't from the very moment I got it, which is kind of strange.

Josh: But do you think your friends were annoyed? Like, were there people that were annoyed who really did care about that stuff?

Andy: Yeah, I think people— the main reason I didn't care is I didn't know what I wanted to do. So a number, this number represents nothing to me now because I don't know how to use it. It's, you know, it's like a lightsaber when you don't actually have the Jedi powers yet. You know, you can hurt yourself with this number.

Tommy: Well, the beauty of the nickname is it's stuck.

Andy: Yes. Good on you, 97. I salute that. But the— Yeah, so that's that. I find that an interesting thing. And people like my school asked me back to talk at the like the leavers And I was like, well, you realise I didn't go on and do anything that you guys wanted me to do. They didn't really even have drama at my school back then. They do now, but they were kind of— everyone wanted to be, had to be doctors, accountants, lawyers. That was, that was, I was quite a strict school. I said, I can't put my hand on heart and go back and talk about how great this is going to be for you, how this number is, because it just didn't mean anything to me. And they're like, that's fine, come back anyway. So my speech wasn't I don't think it was totally endearing to all the parents that had come along with their kids to hear about how to use it. But the one thing I did say, and that was what it did give me, the number, was more opportunity for more like-minded people. So, I met Hamish, which I'm so grateful for, and I met a lot of people. And Tim, who you guys know, who's our producer and general manager of our company, because we all went to the same university and you needed a score to get into that. Whether— it's not to say that you go to a different university, you won't meet those people, but we probably met people at a similar level to us. Yeah.

Josh: What do you think about when you think of the future and media technology, how you're going to connect with your audience?

Andy: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really interesting where it's all going, and I'm not like— I, I, I don't— we don't really delve so deeply into how to connect with audience members because we only ever did the show for each other, like Hamish and I, uh, which is which is fortunate to not have to worry so much about it. But, um, yeah, it will change. There's so many platforms coming out, it's shrinking market for television. There's so many areas to play in. And, um, I mean, they're about to launch in America a new, uh, online platform called Quibi. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. Um, so it's Katzenberg who, um, who is it, I think DreamWorks or Disney or or, anyway, started one of those big ones. And they put, I think, nearly half a billion dollars into this new SVOD platform. So like a Netflix, et cetera, but it's called Quibi for quick bites. And there's no show over 10 minutes.

Josh: Interesting. So are they snippets of shows or are they brand new shows?

Andy: No, brand new original content. So it's original content. So, but, and I mean, this would be a great example of a show that could be on Quibi. Because it's, I mean, it's an hour long, but you guys cut it up 6 times. Yeah, it's all good. You could, you could, so you could, um, if, if that's the kind of thing what they're trying to do is they notice that so many people are there on Instagram watching storeys all the time of people they don't really care about and they're bored and they're going, well, why? I mean, the other thing about Quibi is you could only get it on your phones. So what they're saying is they're wanting an alternative to just I'm just going to go onto Instagram and watch stories. I'm going to go onto this and watch a show I like, news I like. And then we know it's all in quick bits. So, if someone's waiting at the bus, they know they can get this 5-minute show in, or if they're going to bed, they don't have to decide whether they're going to do half an hour or an hour. It's just like, I'll do this. But Spielberg's doing a film that's cut up into 10-minute bits. But it's written, designed for 10-minute bits. So, there'll be a cliffhanger at the end of every 10 minutes or there's a change. They're trying to— we're all getting— our attention spans are all shrinking, and people think they've got less time on their hands.

Josh: Do you think that because all of those things you're talking about are the popular belief in this day and age, do you believe all of that stuff, or do you think that some of these things are actually overhyped?

Andy: Oh, look, I think a lot of these things are overhyped for sure, but I certainly think our viewing patterns have changed dramatically. It's very difficult to sit down and watch a show without being on your phone these days. People have— people— second screens are so important to people. Um, even during conversations, people pull out their phones and Googling things, or watch this, have you seen this? And, and, and so that is— it can't be ignored, I suppose. Um, I'd love to ignore it. I'd love to be— I've been a late adopter for, uh, look at most social media things and Why is that? I don't do it very well naturally. Like, it doesn't— I don't— I don't— I'm not—

Josh: What is it? What is social media? What is it that— Because you are great at content, you're great at storytelling, you're great at—

Andy: I never liked taking photos is one of my first things. I'm just— Hamish used to be our photo guy. He used to take all our— like, he used to take— I've just never really been a person to snap photos. And that is like— that kind of cancels out Instagram.

Josh: And so about writing, because Instagram, like the big thing at the moment is having great solid captions and yeah, right.

Andy: That's why I loved Twitter and I still like Twitter more because it's all about the writing. It's about jokes. I like one-liners more than where someone's sitting in, in what, on what island, in what part of the world. But, but I know you can do both. And, you know, and my girlfriend's great at that stuff and she's been teaching me this too many times where she's leaning over going, no, no, No, don't press that and do that.

Josh: Don't use that hashtag.

Andy: So, but that's, you know, it's, it's the other thing is about the, the writing stuff. So like, and I love daily radio, is I loved sharing my life on the radio. So it's not like I'm against people sharing their lives or anything. It's like, that's fine. It just doesn't really come naturally to me that to, to, to do something and, um, and then want to post it. And, and then there's times I do get Slightly sad when I'm like, there's something awesome happening and then see everyone pull out their phones instead of just like, oh, enjoying the moment.

Tommy: Nowadays sharing your life isn't unique, but sharing your life to a huge audience like you have for a lot of your life is a different and unique thing.

Andy: Yeah.

Tommy: What, what have you felt? And I think about this for us of how much we share. And my wife said to me yesterday, it's a bit dark, if something bad happened, would you be talking about it?

Josh: Like if you were going through something bad, we haven't had any like deaths or anything.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah.

Andy: Yeah. So what's the question?

Tommy: How have you dealt with that? How have you dealt with 10 years, you know, sharing your life? As long as I can remember listening to radio, I was listening to you.

Andy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we get to— you get to choose what parts of your life you share, which I loved.

Tommy: And it also means you're holding back things and actually having to live a life as well as share.

Andy: Thankfully, thankfully, like the two were just pretty much it.

Josh: Like, I—

Andy: you guys have known me for a while now. It's like, I wasn't kind of— I'm the same person as I was on air. Obviously we're looking for funny, but I'm happy to share things in real life that are uncomfortable for a lot of people, but I find them funny, etc. So thankfully I'm not playing a character on air. And we— and Hayman and I have talked about that. It's like, gee, I'm glad we just like doing the things we like and present ourselves, because it would be very hard to to not, you know, and people again, when we had early success, people would come up to me and go, oh, it's, you know, it's great that you're not like driving around in a flashy car or doing this, you know, you try and keep it under wraps to be the everyman or whatever. And then you're like, oh no, not really. I just didn't, don't really want those things.

Josh: About to buy a plane.

Andy: Yeah. So it's like, it's more just, I didn't really want, actually want those things, but I've got friends that did, do want those things and do love showing off money. And I'm fine with that as well. But it's not like, I was sitting there going, shit, I want a Ferrari, but I better just be relatable. It's just we've just been kind of lucky to that my natural wants and needs kind of sit into our performing.

Tommy: Going from something that's indie, you know, something that's new and sort of it's got a little niche audience to then making the step to it being this mass thing, which Hamish Nandy has become. What have you found with how people are treating you?

Andy: Yep.

Tommy: In terms of what you're creating? Yeah, it's—

Andy: I think again, we just make it for ourselves. So, um, I never felt that— there'll be people that probably think that we're really commercial. I've never felt commercial. Like, um, commercial would never do a Snickers deal. Exactly.

Josh: I mean, I mean, commercial is— what does that even mean, right? Like, it's just great.

Tommy: I don't quite understand when people say this, "Oh, you're not Indian anymore.

Josh: You're not Indian enough." Which is almost like just a tall poppy, like every— Everyone, like, that's inevitably what's going to happen. It's very hard to, if you keep going, get to a point of like when that happens. And so, like, it feels inevitable in some ways. Yeah.

Andy: Yeah.

Josh: So, it's—

Andy: I suppose broad is what I think we are. Which is, um, so I think people confuse indie with niche. Yeah, there's niche style of content, and which is something I bloody love, but, um, that's not as natural for us. Like, um, we've got things that we like that are probably a bit weirder, and then you go, okay, we won't do that.

Josh: But you're your own niche. That's the interesting thing, which isn't what happens at the start. I guess at the start it's like you're talking about your life, but then once you build a certain fan base, then there's probably more people that like Hamish and Andy than collect specific stamps.

Tommy: Is it the advice culture though to say, oh no, you need to niche? Because Seinfeld, the show about nothing, no one's now saying Seinfeld, dumb idea.

Josh: No.

Tommy: Yeah, no one's now saying Hamish and Andy, dumb idea.

Andy: Yeah, I think that if again, if you, if you set out just trying to make the show you want to make, um, And we got lucky that it was broad. Like, people go, oh, is it hard not swearing? I was like, I don't really swear all that much anyway. I will, you know, my mates at the pub or whatever, but it's, it's not— we weren't, we weren't not doing the content we wanted to do. And similarly, you know, Howard Stern left radio because he couldn't do the show.

Josh: Exactly. He was— yeah, he wanted satellite so he could— didn't have to deal with all of the regulations.

Andy: Exactly. He wanted to talk about sex and swear and everything, and it's not like I'm ever held back from— I was like, damn, I wish I was talking about, you know, all these things.

Josh: I mean, he's even dialled it back, like what he's doing. Monetization, obviously a different conversation where you're at versus the start of our journey and where we're at. Do you think that monetization of this type of content Is there going to be a new version of that? Is it going to be, be beyond advertisers paying for ears and eyeballs?

Andy: Yeah, I think there's so many places for advertisers to put their money now, so it's really difficult, I reckon, to, um, for them to choose. And what, what I think they should be doing is looking for more closer brand plays, brand alignments. So it shouldn't be about about, hey, these— I know they look up demographics, etc., but, but even deeper than that, just going, what do these two guys stand for? What are Tommy and Josh? And, and does this link really well to our, to our brand?

Josh: So where do networks sit? Because I, I have a lot of friends who are getting into networks and they, they get really pumped about it. And we want to celebrate everyone, but it's also like, oh, you're, you're then amongst a bunch of numbers. If, if it's a network based on we have a million, you plus listens a week or whatever, or a day based on a huge amount of shows.

Andy: You're talking about podcast networks?

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: Yeah. So the fact that they're all, again, it's a way they have to monetize it. So for people who don't follow this, it's essentially they bundle.

Tommy: Good reset.

Andy: Good reset. They bundle. So a podcast platform will bundle a lot of shows together because it's very hard to sell advertising for, say, 100 listens there or 200 listens there. But if they get 10 or 12 of those shows, suddenly, oh yeah, we could sell advertising across 3,000 listeners.

Josh: So good. Well explained.

Andy: So the hard thing is that to me is a great model because it means that even though not much money is going to flow back to the smaller podcasts, at least they are seeing some money and it's proportionate. The hard thing is, I think Chaim told me this the other day, I might be getting it wrong, but it's in the ballpark. I think there's 770,000 podcasts in the world. Yeah. And the median. So how many listeners do you think the very middle podcast has?

Josh: Yeah, I think it was like 120 or something. 124. Yeah.

Andy: Yeah.

Josh: So there's Seth Godin talked about in that Meta.

Andy: Oh yeah, right. So there is a lot. So there's a lot of noise out there. For podcasts to have to try and break through. So if you're sitting there going, this is going to be my job for the rest of my life, yeah, you have to think about it in a completely different terms then, because I even consider it around like schooling and education, right?

Josh: And the difference between going to university to study arts and the idea that there's going to be 150 directors coming out of VCA all vying for a job. I guess to your point around that network sort of model for that longer tail to be able to, if you really believe in it, if you really think that you are going to be in that top 10%, then a network maybe doesn't make sense. But to your point also about the admin, I think the admin thing is interesting too. We take for granted production. We take for granted all of these things like having a lease, being able to run a business where where the idea of being able to walk into a studio and just click and record is a big deal for some people.

Andy: Oh, absolutely. Really huge barrier of entry. And yours looks polished and you guys know how to do that stuff like so that they're all competitive advantages. And, and that, that is a cut above, you know, other ones, which is great. But it's the things you have to work on and sometimes you have to have money for or you have to put that investment in. And I'm not suggesting to any young podcasters 'cause you need more money, make it look sharp. It's more just because you might put that money in and you never see it again. So it's, so they're tough decisions, but yeah, it's a really interesting. The other thing I find though is staying power. If you love something and you actually wanna do it, sticking around long enough, you generally will get there. Like in a version of it. There's not too many, like you see so many people that become super successful late in life. Ricky Gervais is a really good example, But even not just super successful, like I've got a lot of contemporaries from Channel 31 who I've bumped into and gone, what are you doing? And they've stuck at it and now they're producing the news over here or they're doing this and that. And if you are keen enough and you love it, you'll find a job. It may not be that, you know, you might not be the next Wolverine because there's only one of those if there's ever going to be another one again. But yeah, you'll be able to find, make a living out of it.

Tommy: They're saying the bigger the ship, the harder it is to turn. When you're starting out, you can be making, you know, decisions, dropping this, starting that, testing, learning. Have you found as you've gone on the journey that it's actually harder to just take everything off the table and move over here to do something different?

Andy: Yeah, yeah. I think that, um, I suppose that there's— we kind of try to free each other up for all that stuff, which is because the reason we're doing it is for fun. Um, but you know, talking from my perspective, there's certainly times you go, should I do this? Should I do that? What's the cost? Am I going— if I went and did a porno, um, I know I've taken the extreme. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we like extremes. I went and did a porno. Um, how much do I want to do this porno? Because I am risking the whole brand. Yeah, I'm risking a joint brand, not only my own, but whoever you're doing the porno with. Yeah. And I do it with Hamish. That's both of us. So yeah, you definitely take those thoughts into it. That's the extreme, extreme example. But you take those things into account. But at the end of the day, I, we kind of still think about porno. At the end of the day, you hope to live in a world where you could go and do the porn.

Josh: You know, The predictions have been spot on, haven't they?

Andy: Because you should be, you hopefully should be able to do whatever you wanted to do. I shouldn't have said porno, but I should have said like a strange documentary about whales and that.

Tommy: I'd watch that.

Andy: So yeah, it's not like if a hey, or any of my mates in Radio Karate with Ryan Shelton or Timothy, if they all, if they said, oh, like I'm really passionate about doing this, we'd go, okay, well let's work our ways to do it. Because that is why we got into this in the first place, is just following passions.

Josh: So what are the boxes that you have to tick? Because we normally have like, there's these 3 boxes, uh, it either pays well, it's good from a creative perspective, and it's with good people. And we, we have to just pick 2. Yeah, like as long as we tick 2. So it could be, uh, really great people and great creative, the money might be shit, but that's, that's okay. Or it might be, you know, great people and good money. Yeah. Have you worked out what those filters are for you?

Andy: Um, generally it just comes down to, do I really want to do this? So it's, it's not so much about like making a living as much as it used to be, like, um, because, you know, obviously I've been fortunate on that run. It's like, am I pumped to do this? And the podcast I am like, I just love it so much. And so that's, that's exciting to me. And there are other things that come up and I go, yeah, I think I really do want to do that. And, and normally if you're following things that you love, if they, they, you end up putting a lot more work into them and with a lot more work, things generally turn a bit better. So that's kind of where I am at the moment. It's probably not, doesn't make great fiscal sense. Like there's times where I'm like spending money on something and I'm like, oh well, this is, I'm just going to cost me more than that. But I just wanted to do it. I loved it. So yeah, that's probably the only filter at the moment. But back then, 10 years ago, the filter is really different.

Josh: Yeah. And so the podcast, using the podcast as an example, how much of that is it the format versus how much of it is just being in a studio with Haim and Jack and like, what is it about that?

Andy: Yeah, I think it's, it's hanging out with Haim and I just love it. Like, I just can't get enough of it, um, in that, in that environment particularly because the— from, from idea to execution, it's so quick and it's just us.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: Um, and so you're not really relying on anyone else to, to bring it to life. So there's this level of comfort there. But with putting that one aside, which is a given, it's just hearing from people. Like, the interaction is what I love the best. The participation rate is huge and it's just so much fun fun. And that's— I had that in radio, and it was really awesome that didn't have to give it away by stopping that. We could have the podcast and have, you know, people reaching out and just adding their own fun each day.

Josh: The duo thing's interesting. Like, Tommy and I, uh, just experiencing this for the first time. And so we've got the initial stage of Tommy got an email today from a brand saying, hey, will you MC? And Tommy's response is like, oh, if we do it as a duo, we can, we can do It's just not fun by myself, to be honest. And so what, what was that experience like? And then also, what has it been like in recent months or years where you have started to have a crack at that solo stuff?

Andy: Um, I mean, it seems— it's, it probably seems to people more like we're doing more solo stuff now than ever because the solo stuff's really big. So like Hame doing LEGO Masters is a really popular show, but he was off and he did The Librarians and he did Spicks and Specks for, you know, 56 episodes of that during its course. Like, he guested the most. And, and I did Talk About Eugen back in the day and also a bit of Spicks and Specks and have done a short film or done the kids book. And so we were actually doing—

Josh: And you're in a band.

Andy: Yeah, in a band.

Tommy: So, so when you're getting your pilot license, it's a bit happening.

Andy: So you do So when people— I think because it's in a creative field and it's really public-facing, like say LEGO Masters or me doing Your Gen, people go, oh, now they're doing stuff on their own. Oh, that must be weird. It's like, no, it's been like that since the beginning.

Josh: What about the perception though? Because that's the thing that I find interesting is it's like, even if it's not Tommy and my joint experience, it seems like there is having an audience play something interesting into a duo, not so much the duo dynamic, but the way in which people perceive that and look at it from a psychological— but like, it's all weird. It's—

Andy: I think, I mean, for me, I think what I do solo is just so different to what Hamish and I do as The Collective. So I just, I don't think I could do anything except for a porno that can take away from what Haim and I do. And I think I've really come— and I probably didn't feel that 10 years ago. I probably felt far more connected. But you get past— and also we're on the treadmill there and it's all growing and you're hoping, you know, you're worried that someone's going to take your job and who's the young people coming through, all that kind of stuff. So, I think you get to a point where that doesn't bother you anymore, which is really nice. And then the times you split and do stuff, you always come back with better learnings. So, anything we've done individually has made the collective better as well. And it's the same for— there's 4 of us that work on the TV stuff together. It's the same with that. Tim will go away and he directed, um, uh, Little Lunch for Robin Butler and Wayne Hope and a new Netflix series that's coming out for them as well, kids shows and stuff. And he would come to us and say, hey, we know— we all know our TV production— these production companies, the priority, but Guys, there's a chance I could take this time off to go to that. And everyone's like, of course, because you're going to come back and go, you know what? I met this DOP. We use this lighting guy that's amazing. We tried shooting on these different cameras, which was interesting. I wouldn't recommend this. I would. And so we're getting all this knowledge. And the same with, with, with Hayne with LEGO Masters, like him going back and going, this is how they're doing the reality side of things. We'd never done that. Like that. That's just awesome to hear and learn and put another little arrow in our quiver for our production company. So yeah, it probably comes, it'd probably come from a pretty poor place to stop anyone doing those things. And I think normally people might assume that there's a fear that if he does that, then maybe we don't do anything ever again together. But we're pretty comfortable there.

Josh: So, uh, Jase Hawkins was on the show the other week and he was talking about Jase and PJ and how at the end of every year they'll go out to dinner, have a boozy dinner as Jase would, and talk with their partners and they work out what are we going to do next. What is that relationship like with Haim? Is it every single year it's, we're going to have at this time of the year, we start to renegotiate for the next year or? Yeah.

Andy: So deals often aren't just yearly, sometimes they're longer term and stuff. So, and yeah, it's, so we talk about that stuff when they come around a bit more. Um, but yeah, it's generally that. It's not like a set time or anything, but it's just generally checking in. We talk, we talk all the time anyway, but so it's, it's not like you're ever going to receive something that you're like, oh, didn't expect that coming. Um, so yeah, we just talk all the time and go, how do we feel about this? Are you loving this? Um, and often it's, yeah, I love, I'm loving that, let's continue it, or I don't think I have the time this year, or I'm a bit nervous that I might be are you burnt out? Or all these things. And, and I just know that, and I'm sure Ham's the same, is like, unless we both want to do it, we're not going to coerce the other person in. We don't really care. It's like, there's, there's plenty of other things to go and try our hand at. And so it's, it's not a nervous conversation as it was again when I say 10 years ago, where for me personally, I'm going, yeah, I hope he wants to still work with me because I'm loving this, and also it's going really well, and this means this amount of money, all that stuff. That probably played more in my head back in the day, we still both had mature conversations to be able to go, hang on, look, this will only work if we're both loving it. So if anyone wants to step away, we'd respect it. But that was probably more of a fear. And now it's just like, sure, with like, what do you want to do? Yeah, great, awesome, I want to do that as well. But that—

Josh: so it's—

Andy: we're in a happy place.

Tommy: It's almost earning it though. You've kind of earned that in your relationship and it all evolving. Is there something that you personally did to change you or better you that actually then resulted in a shift in the team?

Andy: I think we're always, both of us, always tweaking. Yeah.

Josh: Not to be confused with twerking.

Andy: But yeah, I mean, there's definite— I think also like early on, I'm a bit anal as like about a lot of things. Like, I like things being something like perfect going out, or as a version of our version of perfect. So I'm looking at edits a lot, and that can probably wear down a bit of the fun. And just, you know, even not just for the Hamish and I relationship, but for the broader, our broader producing team, we'd have something would happen on air, even if it was awesome, it was success. As soon as the song would go, everyone, you know, everyone claps or there's exciting things.

Josh: You're just like, no, stop.

Andy: Well, I'd normally walk out and go, you know what we should have done? You know, like that was, that was something that I used to do. And Sammy Kev, who used to be our producer, one day just pulled me aside and said, hey, I love that you want everything to be right or could be better, but just let everybody have the moment. And enjoy the moment yourself. We can talk about it tomorrow if you still care about it, but just let us have the moment. And that was really good advice because, yeah, instead of like finishing a break and seeing everyone excited and going, you know what, the second caller should be the third call, whatever it is.

Tommy: Did it hit you hard or was it something you were aware of?

Andy: No, totally aware of it. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's— but it's been great advice for completely ongoing as well. There's there's times to sit around and go and actually pat everyone on the back and everyone enjoy it because that's what we do it for.

Josh: And you'll be talking about it tomorrow.

Andy: Yes. But, and then look, the next day off and it was like, yeah, why do I even care?

Josh: Yeah. So do you sleep it off and then work out that, yeah, it's not like, why the fuck was I even worried about that?

Andy: Or why was I even, you know, like the whole, the grander scheme of things was to it to be fun, funny, and it seemed that way. And it was like, it doesn't have to be, but there was then there's other times where I'm going, now I'd like to bring this up just to reflect on yesterday's show, mainly the bigger failures, like the things that didn't work. I loved going, hey, um, why, why didn't it work?

Josh: What would be a fail?

Andy: Like, uh, well, you might do a, um, a phone topic or something that— like, here's a good example.

Tommy: We—

Andy: Shannon Noel brought out, um, years ago, Shannon Noel brought out a cricket song like he— I think it was either like We Don't Like Cricket or something like, and it went number one. Like it was great.

Josh: It was anti-cricket.

Andy: No, it was. It was.

Josh: We Don't Like Cricket.

Andy: Oh no, We Love It. We Love Cricket.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: I think that was the song. Mr. 97 might be able to— Is there a Shannon Noll cricket song? I'm going to call it 2004 or 2005 or something. Come On Aussie. Come on Aussie. Yeah. Come on Aussie. Come on. He actually released Come On Aussie cover.

Josh: Was that already? Me, cover. Yeah, cover.

Andy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Well, he did the What About Me, which I love that cover.

Andy: Yeah, I mean, he owned it. Darryl Braithwaite, Horses cover. Natalie Imbruglia, Torn.

Josh: That was an interesting one when I found out that.

Andy: Yeah, that was good. That hurt. Um, anyway, he brought out, um, uh, Come On Aussie, Come On. We thought we would bring out, because it was a pretty bad song, we were like, well, let's do— there's another cricket song, How's That, which was a Sherbet, Darryl Braithwaite song.

Tommy: Song.

Andy: We're like, let's call it How Crap, and we'll do a parody song of Shannon Noll's song and we'll try and get it to number one. It just didn't—

Josh: why?

Andy: A, it wasn't very funny, and B, it just kind of didn't really work or get the momentum. And we did turn around and go, what, what were the reasons that that didn't really sing?

Josh: Did it feel at the time that it was cringe or not, not good?

Andy: Yeah.

Josh: Okay. By about a week later, we're like, wait, once you'd put the song out though?

Andy: Yeah.

Josh: So when you were like in the studio and you're singing, I thought it was all great, and as soon as, almost as soon as it released, like, this isn't, this is not great.

Andy: What'd you do?

Tommy: Did you pull it?

Andy: No. Well, so that's the thing. And, but the learning, I mean, we just released it quickly and kind of shuffled away and it wasn't a big deal because, you know, some people would have thought it was fine, but it just didn't sing like you'd want an idea to kind of take off. But it was a great lesson to go. The main one we did was like we set the bar so high, we're gonna release a song to beat Shannon Noll's song on the charts. And so we said that from the get-go, and there was no way you could exit that idea without doing it all. And there was only one way you could be successful, which is if it actually did it. And that's where we changed, just augmented a little bit the way we set up ideas, to go, let's make sure there's exit clauses all the way along the way. If it's not You can be so pumped about something for 2, 3 days and then realise it doesn't have legs.

Tommy: Yeah.

Andy: And so, yeah, that would probably be a change we made to go, let's not lock ourselves into having to go through with something that's pretty shit.

Josh: Promises. We make a lot of— I make a lot of promises on the show. It's sort of my default is like, let's— it's funny, let's do it. Did you have to rein them in or did you— were you really pedantic about making sure that if you said something say for instance we've got, um, a listener who's getting the Daily Talk Show tattoo, Hayden, um, Gronk of the show. And so, uh, we said that we're gonna do it on Friday last week. We ended up having another Fat Friday thing, so we did— we haven't got it done yet. How pedantic are you about we say something, Sammy, write it down?

Andy: Yeah, we were, we, we, we were. But the thing was like, if it wasn't— only if it was still funny. So you could say something and go The next day go, we're in the moment there, this actually isn't that funny, or we're not that jazzed about it. And we'd either go on air and go, I know we said this yesterday, but tomorrow we come in today, it's like, this isn't happening. This is, you know, you either be that honest or you just don't ever mention it again.

Josh: That's what I'm all about. But Tommy, it really rattles him.

Tommy: Well, I think that, you know what, that is the duo. It's actually a value within me that I won't say something to somebody if I I won't do that thing.

Andy: I'm a bit the same. So like, I, I, I would probably be on more Tommy's side, and I'd say Haymes probably a little bit more on your, on your side, Josh, just to throw out whatever.

Josh: I think it's good, like, which is great because things can happen.

Tommy: Well, exactly.

Josh: For instance, we had an intern come from Canada, 3D Dill, and he stayed with us for 4 months.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: And that was off the back of me saying, oh, you we should look up flights to Air Canada. Yeah. So he booked them.

Tommy: And so then he designed the logo.

Josh: He designed the logo. He did like a 3D squeegee. Show the squeegee on the keyrings. It's just there. 97, is it not?

Andy: That's— yeah, see, but that's— I think, look, I found part of my role was to hold Haym to account, and he does the same back to me. You say something, I ferret it away, and I bring these things up 6, 7 years later. I've got a list of things.

Josh: Well, the person that was banned from the show.

Tommy: Yeah.

Andy: There's these things that come back and you go, and people are podcasting old episodes and they'll write to me and go, "Hey, you realise Haym said this?" And I'll look it up and go, "Oh, this is great." And so like, so, and that's even, that's also funny. So I don't think it has to happen straight away. You guys will have a long time doing this stuff. But Tommy might be able to go in about probably at the most annoying time possible and say, "You know what?

Josh: You said this.

Andy: We should be doing this right now." That's definitely most likely.

Tommy: We're going to build a part of our website that that he's promises. And that's a promise in itself.

Josh: So that will happen at some point. There was a Howard Stern leaked video of him speaking to his SiriusXM team for an hour and a half going on about what they needed to be doing and they weren't doing enough. Being such a successful radio show, did you have those conversations of like, we're so underleveraged, we should be doing this and we should be doing that?

Andy: We've been really lucky. Our team was really great. Great. Um, we always would cheque in, and again, not led by me but by our producer Sammy. We'd always cheque in just to see how everyone was feeling about their jobs. Um, and because a happy team was always better vibes for on air. And yeah, we'd, we'd address— never in a dressing down kind of way, but if something went wrong, we'd all talk about it. And, you know, if people are like, so I'm so sorry, I'm swamped with this, that's why I couldn't get to that, like, oh well, let's, let's help them. It's It always came from a place of let's help everyone be successful. But yeah, those conversations are really healthy. And yeah, we did them a bit along the journey.

Josh: What's the 2019 community like? The media community or like we feel like we're sort of this weird out-of-place thing that we're building and we can't necessarily work out what it is, but we feel like we're on to something. Yeah, it feels like we're on to something and it's just, it's working. Do you get a sense, having seen the Working Dog, uh, sort of those days and seeing, uh, like more of those obvious things, where, where do you think it's all going?

Andy: Um, I think that, I think you guys absolutely are on something. I think that the, all the online content is still trying to work out where it sits, and people may, and I think more, moreover people are still trying to work out how to find it, how to find their things. Um, it's amazing for like kids— I'm talking like, you know, 10 to 14-year-olds— how they don't watch any television but they have all these YouTube stars that they love following. Um, I've talked about that before with Eamon and going, well, shit, should we be, should we be going into that space? Because that's where it is. But it just doesn't really interest me.

Josh: What about bringing them into the show? Like thinking about guests, how do you filter, oh, we're going to have this person on or that person on?

Andy: Nowadays it's just like, we like them, we're interested in them. That's as simple as that. It's, um, we had a— when we came back to do radio, the second stint, um, I remember meeting and they're like, hey, can you guys have, um, Jenna Marbles on? I think it was. And I had no idea who she was. I do now, but a big YouTube star for people who don't.

Tommy: Really changed her look, by the way.

Josh: Has she?

Andy: Yeah.

Josh: Coloured hair now.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, she was the blonde and she's still got the dog. Just giving you an update.

Andy: I just found out she was blonde and has a dog. Was blonde, now brown.

Tommy: But it really sort of— I was watching your videos. I'm like, oh my God, this is Jenna. I used to watch her years and years and years ago. Yeah, right.

Andy: So that was the thing. So people were like going, Jenna Marbles. And I said, I fucking have no idea who this person is. And like, she's huge. And I was like, she's not to me.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: Um, and I just didn't want— and Hayma Sima— I just didn't want people on the show that I didn't understand or couldn't really relate to. And then maybe that was a sign of us getting older, or— and, um, but it was just— and also maybe a sign of the, this, the show changing to go, nah, just wants to be what it needs to be. It doesn't need to to have to tick every box. But funnily enough, we had the same argument when Kim Kardashian was offered the show. I had no idea she was. This is before she really took off. Yeah. And, and Sam's going, hey, Kim Kardashian's like, who's Kim Kardashian? And she's— they explained it and I was like, God, no, there's no way we're not having a reality star on. This is, this is not happening. Um, now they're all very big prominent stars. The reality is that reality is the biggest stars in the world. In some— YouTube stars are the biggest stars in the world. So it's a different offering now. But back then for me, I was like, no way. So we both said no. Haim said no. And then circle back the next day, Sam's like, it's gone up to upper management. They really would like for our audience, they really think people would like Kim Kardashian. Like, oh Jesus fucking Christ. We said no to Kim. Anyway, so we had her on. We're like, oh God, all right. I'm going to spend more time arguing. We'll just have this person on. And cut to like 6 months later and she's probably the biggest thing in the world.

Josh: And how was that? 'Cause once people are in and they're on in the studio, the experience is gonna be the same in regards to like you guys bring the energy, you get excited about them, you celebrate them. How do you celebrate in that scenario where it's like the back of your head, you don't give a fuck?

Andy: Well, we talked about that a lot through our time, particularly early days at Fox where you were being told to have these people on because they are huge pop stars or something, but I didn't really know who they were. I thought, no, my job is to find the angle that I do want to talk to them about. And as soon as we found that and we found some excitement, and that's why generally the interviews are quite different, because we were going, let's just find what we would be pumped to talk to them about or play with them. And then it became really fun. Didn't matter if they were the biggest star in the world or just a listener. Not just listener, or a listener. We're still just going to be as pumped and it would turn out just as, just as great. So that was the, the way we walked into those. Learned very quickly to not throw the, you know, the toys out of the cot and these things. So it's like, let's just think of a good idea that makes us interested in it. It's on us now. It's not, it's not about trying to stop things, stop input. Let's just take the input and make it as good as we can.

Tommy: Were you converted with any of them? Kim Kardashian, were you?

Andy: Oh, I mean, she was kind of fine. I mean, it's like there's definitely people that you you didn't expect to come on, and then they blow you away, like, and you go, wow, that person is heaps of fun, and that's really cool. But you can get equally as disappointed by these people who come on and just, they're swanning through it, they don't really care either. You're like, oh well, we're both here not caring, and that's fine.

Josh: You've been doing a bit of media because you've got your new book, Definitely Do Not Open This Book. How many kids' books? How many?

Andy: Four. This is my 4th year book.

Josh: Is that one a year? Just about. Oh, one a year.

Tommy: You love, love the process of writing?

Andy: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's like when I— people write young novels or even a novel, and, and I— and these books have like, I don't know, probably less than 500 words. So when people say the process of writing, I feel like—

Josh: was it in iPhone Notes or something?

Andy: Yeah, it was pretty much. Yeah. So that's, that's why I feel like a little bit of a fraud when it when it comes to that, but I do love the process of crafting the books. And for people who don't know, it's called Do Not Open This Book. And essentially the idea is to try and stop kids turning the page and using all the tricks you can. And sometimes it's frightening them, reverse psychology. It's kind of encouraging them to turn the book upside down. So then they start turning the wrong way and then they kind of work it out. And all these tricks to stop someone to—

Josh: To reverse psychology, ultimate reverse psychology.

Andy: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: You use the word definitely, which is, I think, a hard word to spell. Yes. It's one of those words that, for what I always accidentally write defiantly.

Andy: Yes.

Josh: Was that a consideration when you were writing it?

Andy: I love putting, yeah, definitely. I love putting words that are hard to spell in the books. Like I've got categorically in this one as well. That's very good. And that was the first bit of feedback I got when I, it was never meant to be published, the first one. I just wrote it for my nephews and as a test book. And my mate's a publisher. And he asked whether he could publish it, but he was like, oh, look, they won't know this word. And I was like, yeah, but remember when we were at school in grade prep or one and we learnt Mississippi or superfradicalism?

Josh: Yeah, anti-disestablishmentarianism.

Andy: All that kind of stuff.

Josh: What the fuck does that even mean? That was the longest word, I think, right?

Andy: Exactly. And it was like Googleplex was something I was really excited about learning before actually Google became a thing. Yeah, I love that. I'd love that to be the discussion. I'd like kids to go, I can't say it. I think it's really funny when kids can't say words, but also they're going to actually go, what does that mean? Rather than just breezing through it. So that's kind of why those words are in there.

Josh: Doing the rounds, going to all the different studios and chatting to different people, does it give you a different perspective? Like, obviously you were on the other end Yeah, where people were coming in and chatting to you. Do you know how to be a good guest? Oh yeah. What does that mean?

Andy: You guys can tell me. Yeah, you're amazing.

Josh: Yeah, definitely.

Andy: I think you definitely realise that it's— look, it's not so much all the major cities, they're all brilliant performers. You probably realise what the big stars are going through when you go out regionally and start doing all the regional radio shows.

Josh: Did you do that?

Andy: I haven't done with this, but we've done it with the TV shows and stuff before. And that's a harder slog. That's where you have to work much harder as a guest. And I love that challenge. I just feel like I was always so grateful when we were on the other side of the desk being the question-asking team, that if someone was there to play along and was keeping the ball in the air and giving up stuff. So Um, yeah, every time if I've committed to an interview, I'll try and do the same thing now because, uh, there's nothing worse than a stale guest.

Josh: Yeah. Has there been a guest that's been extremely generous in their style? Because I guess people can, you know, they either bring something to the— or just an energy. Like, I think like your, your energy is your openness. You're willing to not just have fun and laugh, which I think can be the default for a lot of people in commercial radio, it's like they can do an hour of laughing, but being able to actually like change the energy to not necessarily your normal, normal shtick, I think is what you do well. I love the chat that you did with Will Anderson. I think it was amazing. Um, has there been an example of a guest that's done that for you guys where they've just shown up?

Andy: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's probably only a handful of them that you're like, holy shit, you didn't need to do that. That's awesome. And Tom Hanks was one. He was just, he was just a really funny— and people forget that Tom Hanks was just a comedy star in the '80s. You guys probably never saw his comedy films, but like, far out, they're, they're fucking good. Bachelor Party, Big— I'm not sure if you've ever seen Big movie. That'd be the one I'd go, go back and watch Big.

Josh: Okay, great.

Andy: It's, it's a, it's a—

Josh: you're doing promo for Tom Hanks.

Andy: So it's about this kid, it's like one one of my favourite films from the '80s.

Josh: Has it got a trampoline involved? Yeah, I hope it does. New York?

Andy: Yeah, because I hope it stacks up. But essentially, this kid is at a fair, goes up to a Zoltar machine, which is this weird mysterious machine, and gets a wish granted. And he just wants to be big. Yeah, he just wants to be big. He's sick of being a kid. And then wakes up and he's Tom Hanks, and he meets up with his best friend. He's like, has to convince his best friend that, no, it's him, you know, and then gets a job testing toys at— in New York. And girls really like him, but he's still the kid's mentality. But he's, he's, uh, he's big. And, um, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a fucking classic. He's great.

Josh: And so what did he— what did Tom—

Andy: well, Tom was just like, he was so giving and fun and up for laughs. But then like, we started— it was for the, um, Angels vs. Demons, which is the sequel to Da Vinci Code. And there were some aspects of the film where we were finding it funny. Like, there was a part where he got locked in this museum, um, which was, um, uh, it had to be— what's the word— the, the temperature and also the, the atmosphere within the, the museum library had to be low because to preserve the books or something. So that, um, and we were laughing going, how do you —kind of portray that the atmosphere is changing. And like, we noticed that there's a big cutaway shot to like a big dial on the side of the— and he was— he just took that and ran. He's like, oh yeah, there's all these unrealistic things that were all— and he's listing all these things that of course— and I'm running, I'm running everywhere, but I'm never puffed. Have you noticed that? And he's talking about all these things and you're going, this is so great that he's picked up, but we're nitpicking his movie and he's fine with it. Yeah. And he's picking up and running and you walk out of those and go, oh, that's, that was really cool.

Tommy: Is it? Do you, I mean, you could, if you were being a, um, you know, if you're looking at it and going, was that what Haim and I brought or was that, oh yeah, what he brought to us? Or, you know, I think it's both.

Andy: Yeah. Um, uh, and to not sound arrogant, it's, it's certainly was— it became a competitive advantage for Hayman and I because, um, we weren't interested in people's private lives very, very much, um, which was relieving for a lot of people, uh, not by— not by choice, not like, oh, I don't ask that, but it's— it was just— we just were there to have fun. And we found that guests would come back because mainly the bookers would know safe place, the guests will have fun. If these people are travelling out to Australia, we just want them to have fun because that's their better experience. Maybe they'll come out again, all those things.

Josh: You're not looking for a Daily Mail article where there is radio shows that that's their bread and butter. It's like, what can we get on news.com.au? And they send it.

Andy: They get straight off your interview. And I've had this, they just get straight off your interview and they just send the one line that's going to make you look the worst. Daily Mail on you.

Josh: Andy Lee thinking about a porn act. Yeah. This in '97 has about 10 And you start translating your article.

Andy: But that's true. I mean, you could. It's really easy to do that. So that gave our barrier to entry an easier barrier to entry for those people. It's like they're going to be fine. And then when we're overseas, we had situations where we went to New York, for instance, to interview Johnny Knoxville, Jessica Simpson, and I think it was Sean William Scott, Stifler, is that his name? Oh yeah. For Duke's Fazbear. And Warner Brothers would go, hey guys, you know, we know you're an hour in, you know, in an hour's time, but can you come in now? Um, the, this, the actor is, isn't, hasn't got a great energy, and we thought we'd put you guys in to try and change the mood for the, for the interview day. And you're like, oh cool. Like, so they even knew that we could potentially go in and have fun with someone, and maybe they'll, you know, loosen up a little bit for the rest of the thing. So that did become a competitive advantage. Uh, your book, where can—

Josh: where's the best place to buy it?

Andy: I reckon small bookstores. Yeah, I know, I know. Well, you can get it at Big W, all that stuff, and I really appreciate them, but I reckon bookstores really need everything they can get at the moment.

Tommy: Yeah, and they're great places, like they're always interesting, got a bunch of other stuff going on.

Josh: Yeah, what's— have you got a favourite one in Melbourne that you—

Andy: I like the, uh, yeah, in South Melbourne in, um Cometry Street, Cometry Street Bookstore.

Tommy: It's funny that when I first saw your first book, it was in there. I was in there and flicking through it. Yeah. And that's what came to mind when you said small bookstore.

Josh: Yeah, it's such a nice vibe, isn't it? Like just going to those smaller ones and yeah, even if you like, you even like, I even look at businesses in general and you think about, you know what a lease costs, you know what it's like. Amen. And you like, I know you think about that with like restaurants and shit.

Andy: And everything's online these days. So I go past these stores all the time and go, God, good fucking luck. Yeah, absolutely. I'm rooting for you.

Tommy: Andy, thanks so much for coming on. I feel like when I put these headphones on, it brings me back to being in my car listening to you all those years and the energy. Like, I feel I was always happy when I got out of the car. And you do that.

Josh: Oh, thanks.

Andy: And you've got the, yeah, hey, you should know how to drive.

Josh: Big, yeah, like you. Yeah, I mean, that's like in a lot of ways that's like our nostalgia. That was the— even it's so funny that people differentiate between, oh, you guys were doing radio and then podcast. But I remember just podcasting like at the, like, you know, '06 or like all that, like just listening through. It took us a long time to get—

Andy: so we wanted to do the podcast from the get-go because we love Ricky Gervais' podcast. And then Austereo just were not interested. No, no, no, not doing it. So we ended up like getting it up. I said, if we did ourselves, could we get get it, you know. And so we put it out, I think it was 2006. And, um, it was kind of funny because, um, there were not many podcasts around, so you were automatically in the top 10 if you— that's what we're talking about, putting it in.

Josh: Yeah. Um, but it was—

Andy: I, I used to listen back again, weirdly, just to see how it was cut together, making sure that it sounded smooth, etc. And one day I heard an ad in there and I was like, they fucking put an ad in our pod— I think it was for Mick Malloy's film, it was for, um, Boytown. Yeah, yeah. And I went in and said, you guys, you fuckers didn't even want to let us have a podcast and then you've slipped it in. They're like, yeah, we noticed that it's actually going okay.

Josh: We're like, all right, well, you want to tell us this?

Andy: And so there's a funny little argument that, uh, that we had. But yeah, it's nice to, um, to have had so many years of doing it now. Yeah.

Josh: Are you listening to any podcasts that you can recommend Um, I kind of listen to a few of the regulars.

Andy: There's— I mean, I really like the TED Talks one, but that's just some— that's not— that's nothing new. I, I'm— I— there's an— is a— is it 3 guys called Welcome for Patchwork? You know?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, they're great. I really like—

Andy: I really like their stuff as well. And, um, yeah, it's— I tend to just browse and see a topic that I like, and often and this is the problem with like Spotify and stuff, often don't actually know what it was ever called. Or like, I have no— when I said I was listening to the expert one, I don't actually know what it's— I think it's called, um, Trust Me, I'm an Expert, I think it's called. But again, I've got the browse feature in the car and I just said, where does brand equity lie then?

Josh: I want like, where does— how do podcasts like ours stand out? I guess you need to get people back 2, 3, 4, 5 times.

Tommy: Or get up in the browse section because it's only limited in the cars.

Andy: Yes. What I do. So it's strange that way. I mean, I also like Junk Time AFL podcast and, but you know, there's a bunch of people that I'm friends with that do great stuff. But it's interesting, just they haven't worked out how to curate it yet, I reckon. I'm not sure if you guys agree, but.

Josh: Yeah, the social, there's been a few podcasts that have specifically gone out sort of gone for that market of we are a social app for podcasting. Swoosh was one of them, which is like it will show you what your friends are listening to. But word of mouth seems like the, the most powerful out of them all. Yeah, like, um, I don't know how many people are finding us in the charts, clicking through, and then listening.

Tommy: Yeah, um, but if you're not in the charts, then it's hard to—

Andy: the thing is, the charts is like, also the chart is not— I think Apple do probably a good thing, but the chart doesn't represent the most listened to podcasts in the charts because they'd be the same ones probably. Yeah, the big followers, they—

Tommy: you're in there a fair bit, mate.

Andy: But it represents— there's a— there's a— they actually have never told us the algorithm. We've asked so many times. You actually have? Yeah, because it often doesn't really make sense. But I think what they're trying to do is make sure there's enough new content going in there, and I really like that because you're not just seeing the 10 people that—

Josh: yeah, yeah. And then you only need to get it in the charts once to say that you're in the chart so now you can exactly write it everywhere.

Tommy: We got it, we got it at the top 56 or top 60 actually.

Josh: Yeah, all around about 50 plus Andy Lee thanks for coming on.

Andy: You can actually say without lying I reckon. Without lying? That's what you want to do. Hamish and I have a game called The Not Lying Game Which is essentially, you know, it's to help with like, say, I think the first example was I had a curry for dinner at the restaurant and it was shit. And the waiter came along and said, how was your meal? And I didn't want to say it was shit, but I definitely was never going to say it was good. So I said, who doesn't love a good curry? And they went, oh great, and just clear the plate. I was like, like this wasn't a good one, but I didn't say that. But they'd left.

Josh: But who's so strong? So I, we spilled water all over my MacBook last week and went to the Apple Store, right? And was determined not to mention water. I was never going to mention water. No.

Tommy: And so unless they bring up water.

Josh: And so the USB wasn't working. And so I just focused on something else. So I just said, oh, sometimes in my iPhone there gets fluff in it. I think there must be fluff. Fluff, fluff, fluff. Fluff, fluff, fluff. Fluff. And they came back and they checked it and they said, oh look, uh, nice railway. I said, did you see fluff? And they said, because I was panicking, uh, they said, no, nothing like that, no water damage. And it was very good. But I did, I couldn't help but smile at that point when they said, yeah, water damage.

Andy: Like, another good example for not lying is there's a guy that we're chatting to, Hamish Nine, and he was annoying, um, and and, uh, he said, I'm— we're overseas, like, I'm, I'm heading back to Melbourne, um, and, uh, I'll, maybe I'll catch up with you guys. And Haim said— I'm gonna go get the wording right, which I just— because when he said it, I was like, this is brilliant, not lying. He said, Andy and I look forward to catching up in Melbourne. And I was like, that's awesome, because it's true. I look forward to seeing Hamish in Melbourne.

Josh: I like that game.

Andy: So it's a great game. But yeah, you guys could say, well, let's workshop it for the podcast charts. Yeah, I reckon you could say one of Australia's most listened to podcasts. Well, this is what we're—

Josh: So we're saying that at the moment on our website, I think we say the only daily podcast and video show Australia—

Tommy: Australian, I think I put Australian in there. The only podcast, the only daily podcast and video show in Australia.

Andy: Yeah, so you're the number one then. Well, exactly, the number one daily podcast and video show in Australia.

Tommy: We'll just add the number one bit in there.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it sounds pretty— it sounds all right. And now we put Andy Lee as a quote. It's like, oh, we're just quoting Andy now. Yeah, thanks for that. That's it. It's a daily talk show. If you have enjoyed the show, uh, reviews— I think Apple Podcast reviews, I don't know if they necessarily help in the charts, but it shows people that we're not shit.

Andy: Yeah, no, review, I reckon it's a great thing. It's a— it's also— I often have a little look down at the reviews. So do it, guys.

Josh: Uh, thanks for coming on, Andy.

Andy: Hey, thanks so much for inviting me.

Josh: This is the first handshake we've ever done on the show, but I appreciate it. Uh, it's a daily talk show. Hi, The Daily Talk Show. Show.com is the email address if you want to send it, send us an email. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow for Saturday, which is Jack Post and Radio Mike, their band. They're doing a performance live on the show.

Andy: I might stick around tomorrow. You don't have to. Catch you guys.

Josh: See you guys.