Yay O'Clock With Sarah Holloway

Josh: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 453.

Tommy: What's going on, guys? How are we?

Josh: Very good. Sarah Holloway, lawyer turned funtrepreneur. I feel like I've got it stuck in my head. When did you come up with funtrepreneur?

Sarah: Oh, I think it was probably right at the beginning when I had first gone full-time, but I still felt like a total fraud. And I can't really say that that's disappeared as much as I would hope that it would have by now.

Tommy: Is it fair to say that the funness comes, it's the opposite of being a lawyer? Is a lawyer being fun? Is it fun to be a lawyer?

Sarah: I mean, I think it is for some people.

Tommy: Yeah.

Sarah: And I think they're the vast minority of people who do law and start their careers as lawyers. There's definitely an element of fun for the super brainiac side of your brain.

Tommy: Is it anything like Suits?

Sarah: Oh, I mean, less than I thought. I was getting really pumped, you know, to think that I was going to this glamorous career with like beautiful clothes and, you know, you start with this, like last for about a week. I recommend a deal closes and there's champagne. Like that's really glamorous and exciting, but most of it's paper pushing, eating, you know, Maccas at your desk.

Tommy: Oh God. I mean, some people that's the life.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: Living the dream.

Sarah: I mean, if you love it, if you love it, it's great. And like some people, there's a lot of adrenaline. So some people really love that.

Tommy: Well, you've almost gone to the opposite side, which is, and we've had a lot of people in the show. So we've had someone who has a criminology degree, hasn't used it. Mr. 97, he's smart as hell. And now look where you are, mate. But was it always for you, were you wanting to— like, I mean, we grew up together, you know, going to school. It's like, do the uni thing. It's like, you know, be studious, abide by the rules, do the degree. When did you start getting a hint of, I gotta get out of this?

Sarah: Oh, I think it was pretty early that I knew. So Pretty much since I was a kid, I've had equal parts nerd burger and arty farty is how I describe it. And you know, when you're a kid, you kind of keep doing, you keep your options open, you keep all doors open. At school, I did all different subjects and all different extracurricular activities. Then at uni, I did arts law, so I still kind of kept both sides alive. So it wasn't until I got into full-time work and I was a couple of years in that I realised one part had slowly started to just die away. Like, there's no role for that fun arty farty side in a strictly corporate environment. And I don't think I'd gotten to the point where I hated it. It's more in hindsight that I'm like, like, whoa, I was really stifling a lot of my creativity. At the time, it was more a feeling of, I'm probably not going to end up here forever. It doesn't light me up, but it's not awful. You know what, it's so hard to get a job as a lawyer. So when you do get it, the first year you just spend being grateful that you've got a job at all. And then, you know, you're getting paid well, like you've gone from a uni wage to all these opportunities. I got to work in Hong Kong for 6 months. There's enough for, you know, the A-type excited personality when the learning curve is really steep. It's still exciting for a while. It's more that I've realised when I did start Matcha, it was the comparison that kind of woke me up to like, oh wait, this is how I feel when I do legal work, but this is like me. I like feel like my true self, and all the stuff that I'd been letting kind of disappear came back again. And it was only by that contrast that I was like, oh, this is maybe not where I'm meant to end up. I think a lot of people get in there and they're like, I need to get out. I wasn't like that.

Josh: Yeah. So you've got a podcast now, Seize the Yay, which is where I feel— when I feel like I think of you now, that's a lot of the stuff where I see you spending your time. There's before the— or after the lawyering and before the podcast, you started Matcha Milk Bar. Is that right?

Sarah: Yeah. And Matcha Maiden.

Josh: And Matcha Maiden. What was the, the catalyst for making that switch from the matcha side of things, but then also saying making the next pivot across to podcasting?

Sarah: Oh, good question. I think pretty similar to both of those businesses. They were random ideas that came out of nowhere. That just is kind of how CZIA came about, is that I didn't even realise at the time when I was doing law that I wasn't happy. I just was fine, you know. And I think a lot of people are just fine and they're like, oh, this is just how life is. And until you see something that's more than fine, you don't even notice. So the idea of the podcast came out because I realised how many other people are in that situation. And I was lucky enough to have— you know, an illness and then a discovery of Matcha totally by accident that allowed me to start on this pathway that ended up in a complete life change. But a lot of people don't have something that just wakes them up one day. So the whole idea of, you know, Seize the A being my life philosophy of don't just be on this conveyor belt of productivity, start to find the joy in things again and let your inner child stay alive and stop being so serious about everything all the time. That idea came about because I realised I had found my joy, left corporate, started these businesses, but then 3 or 4 years in had started to corporatize those. And it's this cycle that you get into of like you find the joy again, you take a big jump, and then the comfort zone catches up with you and then you just sit there. And I was like, oh, I left law to get away from this. And then I'm my own boss and I've created the same situation where I'm burning out. I don't have the joy. I'm not excited. I'm— the learning curve has slowed down.. And I just realised everyone has to have something at all times, whether it's your full-time job or whether it's your side hustle that makes you excited. And that makes you excited about everything because you've got something that is driving you each day. So I was like, I need to start something new. It's been 5 years. Nick and I have been together 10 years now, but we, you know, became business partners and suddenly had no like boundaries between couple and, you know, like Pillow Talk would be our bass. And I was like, wow, something has to be done about this. Like I need something on the side. And the podcast came about again because I was just, always seeking to learn and grow and follow the joy and the bits that spark you. And I think the bigger a food or like any kind of retail business gets, the further away you get from the customer. And so in the beginning, we were like right in that personal connection. But as it got bigger and bigger, I realised as we scale, I don't get to speak to the customer. I don't get the people bit. And that's my bit. That's the bit I love.

Josh: Is it more painful finding out that second time around where you have actively tried to seek a lifestyle that works for you?

Sarah: More painful that it didn't happen? Or—

Josh: Well, yeah, I guess that once you get— because I guess I've had a bunch of transitions or pivots in my life, and when you pivot to the next thing, which is going to be the thing, it's meant to be the thing that's going to tick all the boxes.

Sarah: Yeah.

Josh: When it doesn't, it can be a bit rattling because you realize, oh, hang on, maybe this is me. Maybe this wasn't the lawyer job at all.

Sarah: Yeah, totally. I think in the bit between realising that I'd hit my kind of comfort zone— not my comfort zone, but I'd hit that kind of grind again. And before I had the idea for the podcast, which I reckon was a couple of months, I was totally lost. I was like, what do I do now? Like, I've kind of made this big jump, but you can't keep spinning that storey for, you know, it's been years now. Like, I've got it. What else is— what else am I leaving? What else is my legacy? And what are the bits that unite the bits that I love with the bits that I'm really good at? And I felt that in the matcha business and even in the hospitality business, they were starting to be the bits that I wasn't that good at, and then also the bits that I wasn't that lit up by. But I think that's what— that discomfort is what kind of makes you search for something new, which it's no mistake that then a couple of months later something else came up. And that's another thing that really helped me through that whole period was realising that once you make one big jump in your life, it's not like you just take a step back and go, oh cool, I'm done now. Like made one big jump, I'm good. Like, I am over self-congratulatory. So I was like patting myself on the back for years and years. But I think you, especially in this day and age, and this is what I talk about on the podcast, there's meant to be so many chapters. So maybe Matcha Maiden came to get me out of the legal career, but it was only one step. And maybe there's 5 more steps before I find my actual thing. And instead of holding on to that, like, I've done this, I have to make this work, I just, you know, I think I started the podcast and realized, oh, it could have just been leading me to this, or this could be still leading me to something else. Like it's all an unfolding, evolving process.

Tommy: Well, everything we do, we don't know the result. Well, I mean, we can't see the future. So it's like, that's what I love about creative endeavours outside of business, right? The stuff that doesn't really make sense. There's a bug flying in my face. Doesn't really make sense.

Josh: I'm being very artsy.

Sarah: Yeah, I was like, you're doing the NLP.

Tommy: Yeah, but I mean, we had an artist on this week who was putting up posters. He's now written a book. He's got, you know, fame worldwide for what he's done. But I don't— he didn't have that when he's rolling it up that that's going to be the thing. And so when you start something like a podcast, what was your— going into your podcast, we love talking about podcasts on this podcast. Let's be honest, we don't get that many.

Josh: I mean, in the early days, yeah, like the first, the first 50 episodes, there was a lot of podcast chat. So it's like, what do we want this podcast But I guess so. Do you think we'll do the podcast in 100 episodes? I don't know. I guess we'll find out.

Tommy: We're 450-something in and yeah, we're still doing it. But for you, when you take on a creative project, how far down the track are you thinking? You said you're an A-type. You know, you use that term. I've heard that more this week than I've ever heard in my life.

Sarah: I'll say now I say yay type.

Tommy: Okay, you're a yay type.

Josh: Have you done any trademarks, by the way?

Sarah: Yeah, I have.

Josh: I could imagine.

Sarah: My legal stuff, I've got yay type. I've got work rest yay. I've started using yayberhood, like welcome to the yayberhood.

Josh: Have you actually, because one of the things with trademarks is obviously you need to defend them. Have you had any moments where you've had to send any letters or anything?

Sarah: Yeah. Up until last week, no. In the whole, so I actually trademarked CZA 18 months before I started the podcast because I had the idea and I knew I would use it for something. I was like, oh, this is great. It just captures everything that I think about life that you don't— seizing the day is too productivity, achievement, success, money, milestones. I want it to be much more about like joy and fulfilment and excitement. But then anyway, I had no idea what I'd use it for. And in that whole time, I hadn't had anyone try and use it until a billboard came out. And I've got a little Seize the Day like Facebook community group, the Yabahood, obviously. And which I started like maybe a month ago and someone saw the billboard and was like, you're doing a collaboration with this massive company. It's all up all over Melbourne Central, it's amazing. And I was like, oh no, I'm not actually.

Tommy: But tell me the details where it is.

Josh: So what did you do?

Sarah: I mean, it's been removed now.

Tommy: So really?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, is that your doing?

Sarah: It was my doing. Yeah.

Tommy: I guess you get to defend.

Josh: Well, because that's the intel. I mean, I want to get back to my question. Yeah, but that's what I'm excited by. Intellectual property. I mean, that's what you're holding on to, right? Like if you got these ideas and brand, then you need to protect it.

Tommy: To that though, I think, yeah, people creatives are like, oh, it's just an idea. Like most, most creatives don't have a law degree. Let's be honest.

Sarah: Yeah.

Tommy: People who start a podcast and they have a good idea. And so, I mean, we looked into the trademarking thing.

Josh: Yeah, we did that. Yeah. So we tried.

Tommy: We're not smart enough to get help.

Sarah: Well, because of the—

Josh: No, well, we did the pre-check where they get someone from IP Australia to look at it. And they were saying it's like too generic, like the daily talk show, we can't.

Sarah: We can't trademark because it's too broad.

Josh: Yeah, too broad. But then Justine Flynn from Thank You was saying that what they did was I think they trademarked the image for— they started at the image level. But I don't know.

Sarah: We do that with Matcha Maiden. So you can do a wordmark, which is just the words, or you can do the logo which captures the words. And then that gives you some protection because then even if they use a different logo, you can say it still resembles the picture, the letter, like the whole thing overall looks very similar.

Josh: And so what's the— so TJ, what was your question? I'm worried about— you were so certain on it.

Tommy: You never remember what the fucking question was. No, it was about creative endeavors, stuff that doesn't really make sense financially, especially that you actually enter into and then forming a plan around that, right? Because you could come up, I'll start a podcast and, you know, all here's month 1, month 2, this is how I'm going to monetize. How far ahead do you think in your creative endeavors?

Sarah: Um, not very far at all. I always say I've gone from having like a 5-year plan or a 50-year plan to not even a 5-minute plan, which I kind of like. I'm like obviously at lots of different extremes. I'm either like super anal retentive planning or I'm like, fuck it, let's do it right now. And I think since moving into business, and this was another realisation that happened when I decided to start the podcast, was that you, if you give yourself too much time to think it over, and I'm a big overthinker, like if I don't rip the band-aid, I probably won't do it. And managing the self-doubt has been the biggest, biggest challenge I think along the way, because in law, you know, I've studied for 7 years to do it. You've got a really clear hierarchy of who to ask questions to. You're never out of your depth and you always know what's coming next, even if you're learning about different content or like learning different levels of responsibility. It's still like a familiar environment. But moving into business where you have no qualifications the whole business environment is different. Even if you had mentors that were clear, I think it's been good for me to get out of that whole, I need to know what's happening in 5 months, 10 months' time. It's like, you don't even know if Instagram will exist in 5 months or 10 months' time. You don't know what e-commerce platforms are coming out. So why agonise over all the tiny details when it's going to change month to month anyway?

Tommy: So is it about being ready?

Sarah: Agile.

Tommy: Agile.

Sarah: I think like the ability to adapt constantly to a new environment is more important than having it planned out in advance. You obviously have to like have an idea of how you're going to pay your bills and, you know, who you're going to ask and how you get your equipment. But I think one of the big things in the whole CZA philosophy is I always say, um, doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will, and done is better than perfect. And I've gone from being like such a perfectionist who is trained to be risk-averse and to find all the things that are going to go wrong and, and need to combat every single possibility, to someone who's like, don't even worry about it, half of those won't eventuate anyway. And then even if you get it perfect and you think that's perfect, you'll release into the market and they'll, they'll hate it and you'll need to change everything anyway. So just put it out there, get your minimum viable product, whatever it is, podcast episode 1. That's all I had thought about was like, how do I get one out there? And Matcha Maiden was the same. Like, how do we sell one bag to one stranger? And then I can put on my LinkedIn that I'm an entrepreneur and then I can go back to Laura and it'll be all happy and joy joy. And like, I can tick off that box, you know?

Tommy: Well, the side hustle is almost the hiding place because you can call it a side hustle because most people who have a side hustle would love if you gave them a magic wand to make that their full-time thing.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure.

Josh: Yeah.

Sarah: But I think it's good to just start because the biggest lessons you'll ever learn only once you've started and once you get your idea out there and then start to mould it. Whereas people paralyse themselves with like overthinking and then the fears and the, you know, risk and all that stuff, it really bogs you down. So I kind of just— I think I had the idea for the podcast in like October and I asked my first guest so that that would force me to buy the equipment for the date that I had set with her. Love that. Yeah. And then I just figured out how to record on the day and then I was like, shit, I got to edit it now.

Tommy: Like, how am I going to do that? Nothing like a bit of pressure from external forces.

Josh: How do you deal with like family and friends if you're in a situation where they're like, oh, what are you up to? Doing this podcast. We get a lot around monetization. How are you making money from this thing? How do you— have you got a good answer that we could use?

Sarah: Yeah. Um, it's actually been amazing having such support. Firstly, Nick being my partner, and him, he's never had a job. He's literally been an entrepreneur for every stage of his career. So that's made it a lot less foreign to the people around us. It meant our network's kind of used to it, and a lot of people are in business already. So I was kind of the latecomer. So it wasn't this whole like, like my law friends obviously were quite shocked, and my corporate friends were like, what do you, how are you getting up at 11 in the morning going to yoga. I don't understand. And travelling all the time and you work on your laptop.

Tommy: You actually sleep till 11? That's a bloody effort.

Sarah: I mean, sometimes.

Tommy: That's a huge effort.

Sarah: Not every day.

Josh: I'm in the 5:30 AM club that's being pushed and I appreciate it.

Tommy: The 11 AM club?

Sarah: It's a great club. It's a great— I'm solely the sole member, but that's okay.

Josh: Yaya clock is what it's called.

Sarah: Yeah, that is exactly what it's called. Uh, yeah.

Josh: And so have you had to, like, is there anyone where you do feel that pressure? Um, because I guess there is a difference between freelance and business. And say with what we're doing, no clear business model yet. There's obviously advertising at a certain scale, uh, but if you're thinking only 5 minutes ahead nowadays, is there a good way of communicating it to people?

Sarah: Yeah, I think, um, I, I think in both situations I've made the circumstances in a way that the news is a lot easier to break. So by the time I wanted to leave my job, the business was already doing well enough. Like, we— I kept my job for the first 6 to 8 months, so I'd go to work, work like a 20-hour day, come home, pack matter in the middle of the night, go back to work. And so by the 6 months, you know, in, I was like, I'm gonna leave my job, but we're already making money. So, you know, it's proof of concept, it's not stupid, irresponsible decision. And then by the time the podcast started, it started as a hobby. It was never meant to make money, so that, that took the pressure off because we were already— we already had jobs and businesses. It was a lot easier to say, if it monetizes, amazing, so it's worth spending all the time on it. If it doesn't, like, I'm, you know, doing something that clearly has proven itself by now. And then I think if you can talk down things that you're doing at the beginning to make it sound less of a huge jump, then it helps you be able to cope with it and then everyone around you to get on board more. But I also am in that unique, amazing situation where I'm Asian but I don't have Asian parents because I was adopted. Yeah, which I think you know that already. So my parents are completely white country bumpkin Australians. So everyone's always like, how did you tell your parents? And I'm like, I don't have target parents. My parents are Aussies, are like, you go, you live your dreams. Like, you do, you know. They've been so encouraging that there's been no family pressure.

Josh: Um, has there been a transition though through the podcast as it's built momentum to say, okay, now I actually need to be thinking this with a different lens rather than it being a hobby?

Sarah: Yeah, I think once you get to the stage where you have enough of an audience, uh, who are taking on what you say in such a serious nature and applying it to their life, you realise you have a level of responsibility that you probably didn't think that you would have. And that's when I started to think, oh, I probably have to be a bit more conscious of not being so random. And like, I, I love the chats being so open and so random, but always to make sure that I've done my research. If there's anything super controversial, to make sure that I've covered off, you know, how I'm going to cope with that, that if it goes super open.

Josh: Like, what would be an example of controversy?

Sarah: Um, not so much controversy, but more like, um, you know, we've had Osher Ginsberg came on and was talking really openly about suicide. And I was like, I need to make sure I cover that in a responsible way because it's not to 5 people anymore. It's, you know, to a lot of people or things, you know, things like that that are hard to cover in a way that if anyone sensitive is listening, that you're doing your audience justice and doing it, you know, in a way that— yeah, I think as it's got bigger and then as sponsors have started to come on board, it also has started to mean more serious decisions about, well, if I took that sponsor on, what would that mean for my content? And I don't want any— anything to influence my ability to cover things that I think are really important.

Josh: Um, yeah, you have a lot of spread— being Type A, a lot of spreadsheets. What are you looking at from a measurable perspective? Like, what are you measuring in regards to CCA?

Sarah: Um, I look at the, like, the listens that each episode gets. I still— I think because part of the reason for starting it for me was to inject something that's for joy that isn't metric-based. I really have to hold myself back from trying to get growth episode on episode or week on week. Like, I know the Shameless Girls have been so clever in the way they've strategized how they want, you know, the growth to double and triple and how they do that. But I've focused more on just getting the content out that I really want to get, and then everything else is like a side effect because I'm— my, my, like, nature is to go, oh, but I got, you know, 20,000 last week, so I want blah blah blah this week. And then, you know, in week 3, I got this. So by week 30, I should be, you know, I've tried to not make it about that. Like I have happened to have an episode every week, but I've never announced that it's weekly. It's just like, if I can do it, amazing. If I can't, if I miss one week, like there's no date.

Josh: You'd be pretty upset by now.

Sarah: Now I probably would.

Tommy: So is this the announcement that it's now once a week?

Josh: Yeah, it's a weekly. That's a good exclusive.

Sarah: Exclusive content. Well, someone actually said to me, they're like, Wednesday, I'm waiting and I'm like, Wednesday, what? And it just turned out that they'd been coming every Wednesday for like 7 weeks. And I was like, oh, wow.

Tommy: It's funny, there's patterns though. We had Shanna Kennedy on who—

Sarah: Oh, from Calm, from the Calm book. Author?

Josh: Yeah, she's got the Life Plan.

Sarah: The Life Plan, yeah.

Tommy: Got it over there. But she's awesome. She was talking about something she works with, you know, a lot of corporates, executives, that it's just about standing in front of the mirror I don't know if she actually gets them physically to stand there, but it's about looking at yourself and taking away the job title. So be taking away the podcast, the things that you do, which the thing is, it sounds like you've morphed these things that you love to do into your business, which kind of becomes you, right? And so I look at what we do, and it could be different if you are a lawyer working 75 hours, 80 hours, could be more. In a law firm a week where you take away that because you actually have stuff outside of it. What is it for you? What, or do you see these things completely intertwined into who you are as a person?

Sarah: You mean like stripping back all the stuff that I do?

Tommy: Yeah, the brand, the podcast, the things you do daily, which it seems like you love. So that's where I'm sort of wondering, are they so intertwined?

Sarah: I think yes, but part of the podcast for me, so I'm so excited that the podcast has ended up being something that people really enjoy and seem to be getting something out of, but it very much started as I'm doing this because I need to fix something in myself, which was not having hobbies and not having things that had no metrics.

Josh: So is this— so the podcast was a hobby at its core?

Sarah: Yeah, it was a very like, you don't announce when you're, you're doing it, you don't try and get sponsors. If they come, amazing. You don't have a schedule, there's no like the metrics, you know, you look at them, but there's no like try and hit this by this time. It's— I've tried to let it be the opposite of what everything else is because the businesses have to be because of the logistics and stuff. They have to be the opposite. So it's been my release from planning and achieving and like being productive, even though I've kind of turned it into that now. But the one of the sections of each episode is Play Tia, which is who the person is when they're not doing like like you're a human being, not a human doing. So when you aren't your job or your hobbies or your output, what are you? And I think for me, I do everything I love, but I try to still have at least like all of Sunday I don't do podcast or work. That's just my day that I need to like— I get quite bad anxiety, and that's one full day where I just like put my phone away, it's on aeroplane mode. I might like take it to take photos of the dog or something, but that's when I like read crime books or spy books or garden or do puzzles or go for a run.

Tommy: How do you find switching off? Josh was mentioning this. It's that 6 days of going hard and then 1 day where you switch off.

Josh: Sundays are like my most anxious days, like the day of switching off for me. I'm like, I'm not going to do anything. So then I eat shit food. I think if I ate better food and did walking, it would be better. It's just when I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to watch YouTube and I just go down some really dumb rabbit hole.

Sarah: They're the best rabbit holes though. I know, they are good.

Josh: And that's why always am seeking to do. It's like, but then by the end of the day, it's normally because Bri does stuff. Like she's like, well, I'm gonna like go out. And then she comes home and then I'm sort of a bit of a sook. I'm like, well, where have you been?

Sarah: She's like, I thought we're having today together.

Josh: Exactly. A little bit of that. So I mean, what is, so is the Sunday, is that decompression, is that alleviating anxiety or is that giving you an opportunity to actually sit and address the anxiety?

Sarah: I think it started as my most anxious day because I was just like, ooh. And then I think it's like anything, if the more you practise something and the more your body learns to expect that on a Sunday you're not going to have to use your brain, it just takes the pressure off every other day of the week because it's like I'm operating at such intensity and your brain's going, and like even when you're just so people-facing and pouring energy into relationships and like being at the cafe and you're like, all the time, I I know that I can hold that up because on Sunday I don't have to speak.

Josh: Yeah.

Sarah: And I think once I got past that initial kind of 3 or 4 weeks of it feeling yuck, I feel like that's what happens. That's the nature of this, like, you know, overstimulated, anxious society that we're in, is that rest actually feels yuck at the start because you're searching for something to do because you've been taught that your, like, default nature is stimulation.

Josh: Or even like going to bed early. Yeah, I went to bed.

Sarah: What the fuck am I doing?

Josh: I went to bed at 9 last night. I thought I was like winning. I actually didn't go to sleep until 10:30.

Tommy: What were you doing?

Josh: I was like on my phone.

Tommy: Yeah, but the phone is just a—

Josh: I need to get rid of it.

Tommy: Just zaps.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It almost like when you are more brain dead from a big week and being on your phone, then it's just like you're fully in a vortex.

Josh: But it's almost like enjoyable about like the— The brainless. Yeah. But then I appreciate that what I love about your brand and what you do on Instagram is you're one of the few people who it's like you do have a level of positivity. Like it doesn't seem like it seems like you're enjoying the content that you're creating. And it's like, I think it's also because the way that you speak to the camera. I think Emmy Lou is another person who does it really well. But it's just the, yeah, I think what I learnt from watching you is that you can be in the platforms and still be a functioning adult. Because it feels like, it feels like at times, the amount of time I could be like, oh man, I've spent 6 hours on Instagram today. Yeah.

Tommy: Which is quite high and quite regular.

Sarah: Yeah.

Josh: But is that what you're doing?

Sarah: I mean, are you spending that amount of time? But I think it's also since having, since being a bit more clear about what I'm using it for, I think it takes a really long time to get comfortable with why you're there and what you're trying to do with it. And since the podcast, it's been so clear to me that it's to spread joy. Like one of my favourite quotes is, people will never remember what you said or what you did. They'll always remember how you made them feel. And I feel like that's my brand is every conversation, every time they buy a matcha, every time they listen to the podcast that they leave being like, yay, life.

Josh: And it feels like a bit detached as well. Like I think like Tommy and I were talking about it, having a show, having something gives us this licence to put stuff out more because it doesn't necessarily feel like it's us either. Like in some ways, like it feels like, say at the beginning we would never post, like Tommy especially, not much stuff on personal Instagram. And then you just get to a point of like, oh, this is the sh— when you're doing a podcast and talking for an hour a day, oh, this is who we are.

Sarah: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, you're convincing yourself also. And I think it's of the thing that you do. So there's a confidence level in what you do when you start doing it for long enough because there's a lot of noise of people who just you see them, they've celebrated and put a launch party out for episode 1 and then it just kind of fizzles out. That was actually the best episode and the most fun that they ever had in the project.

Josh: Were you worried about that? Getting the podcast out there, was there a mechanism so that you could get past that? I think it's 11 episodes. There's this sweet number.

Sarah: The critical point of like death.

Tommy: Josh speaking like, Death Valley.

Josh: My old podcast. Last Josh speaking did 11 episodes. So I feel like that's the—

Tommy: No, I've read that. Yeah. Oh wow.

Sarah: I didn't even see— this is why I think it's good sometimes not to do your research and just start because otherwise around episode 11 I would have been like, ah, yeah, but I was just like, nah, fuck it.

Josh: And so you were doing one of the— was the— did you batch any at the start or was it—

Sarah: I've been all over the place. So I batched the first, I did one, then I batched 5 because I was in Sydney and they were all in Sydney. And then I went to 2 weeks ahead kind of rolling. And then I went through a phase where I was literally like 3 days before or 2 days before I was like, fuck, I've got nothing. And then now I'm like 9 weeks ahead.

Josh: Oh wow.

Sarah: Or maybe 10.

Josh: Did you change the type of content? Because I guess one of the things that we've discovered with doing the daily talk show is having the always-on sort of we're continually moving. It's all chronological, so it's all quite easy. And when we have, we had a couple of moments where we've done batching. And it can, it changes the dynamic a little bit. Have you thought about that in regards to, oh, this is going out in 9 weeks, where is my guest going to be in regards to the audience?

Sarah: Yeah, I definitely prefer not to go further than maybe 3 or 4 weeks because I think when you're chatting in a really informal, like casual context, you always talk about stuff that's happening in the news or like topical current stuff, or there's a launch coming up and then by the time it comes out, they've already launched it. And it just feels a bit stilted, it's just because we're getting married that I was like, oh, I want to make sure that there's, you know, something kind of lined up.

Josh: It makes a lot of sense.

Sarah: I've definitely felt, because we're, you know, travelling a lot in the next couple of weeks, but I've definitely felt that now when I'm editing them, I'm like, oh wow, that was a long time. What did I even say?

Josh: And so editing, do you— we don't edit at all.

Sarah: Really?

Josh: Yeah, we could. Sorry, we should have let you know before.

Sarah: Oh no, did you— oh, you mean as in Well, as you don't.

Josh: No, no, no, no, no. We don't edit at all. We never cut anything out.

Sarah: You never have?

Tommy: No. Which is once early that, so we, it brings in a new element when you're starting to film stuff.

Sarah: Yes.

Tommy: So there was a few, like once earlier on, which is, this is the, you learn really quickly when you have to do that. 'Cause then you're like, never again. And so, yeah, it's good practise just so that we can get through them.

Josh: And yeah, so I think, I mean, are you—

Sarah: It's like a time constraint thing more than an editorial decision. Yeah. But it's also like, the—

Josh: I think you become maybe a better performer, maybe not performer, but like a better communicator in regards to you don't have the option to edit.

Tommy: Well, if you were to do talks, which I know you do, if you could know that you could cut every one of them up, it just then becomes this perfect thing where, yeah, it's an evolution. You grow from seeing your thing out in the world that isn't what you wanted it to be. So then you've got another option to come, another opportunity to come back and try.

Josh: There's a— it's strategic too, I think, for you. Makes sense to edit based on giving people a very bespoke experience around CZA. Whereas I think what we're trying to emulate is a couple of gronks talking.

Sarah: I love the word gronk. Where did you get that from?

Tommy: It's my favourite word. And then I just started using it and then I didn't realise how much I used it. And then we had people emailing us saying, I've been using gronk.

Josh: So our audience is called the Gronk Squad.

Sarah: Is this an original? Jacket creation.

Josh: No, well, it's on Urban Dictionary.

Tommy: Yeah, it is. And then there's a guy, an NFL player, Gronkowski, who uses Gronk. And so I think we actually got a GIF into Instagram through his— we've got the Gronk Squad. So we've got this flashing Gronk Squad, but I think they only let it in because of him.

Sarah: They thought it was him.

Tommy: They thought it was him.

Josh: We tried to do the whole Giphy thing.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: The pains that we go through.

Sarah: It's actually, yeah, tough. It's tough.

Tommy: So in terms of the stuff you do and the stuff we do, I think it's quite natural in the early days to look to your right or left and see someone doing something that kind of what you want to be doing or where you want to be.

Josh: They have a verified Giphy.

Tommy: They have a Giphy. Let's be honest, we looked at that, mate. We're pissed. No, but I think it's quite natural to have the knee-jerk reaction. The visceral response of, oh, like, you know, it's almost not jealousy, but it's a reflection of you and where you are, I think, as a person. Have you had those moments where you are looking left and right at maybe competitors or people doing the similar thing?

Sarah: Yeah, definitely. I think early on, especially when we literally went from being the first to market and definitely the first to market that even knew what Instagram was, like, we were like, the cool matcha brand at a time when it was booming as a search term and as a product, and Victoria's Secret Angels wanted it, and we were just the only one that was actually selling it easily online. And then we went into this landscape where there were like 20 to 50 competitors in the course of like 6 months. Everyone just figured out that the barriers to entry were low and just went boom. And that was super distracting. Like, I reckon for a year I spent time just heavily researching everything they would do if they bring out another flavour or like whatever direction they were going in. I was like, I'd be like, oh shit, and I'd go down a trail of like wasting 3 or 4 months trying to, you know, formulate something they were doing before, you know, they'd pull it off the shelves because it wasn't selling and I'd wasted all this time on comparison. And I think losing traction in that first 6 months of having competitors compared to when it was— I was just focused on what we were doing and a couple of instances like that where I was about to take someone's lead and then heard that it wasn't a good idea or it didn't work for them and being like, God, if I had done that, it would have totally— you know, I felt like it wasn't a good idea, but I just did it because everyone was. I think that really taught me early that you just have to get your blinkers on because someone else is always looking for exactly what you have. And so the way you do it differently is why people come to you and why people go to the competitors. But if you don't stick to what you've got, then you're just becoming exactly what they are. So stick to your guns. Also, you have to do what's got more longevity rather than if you, you know, a lot of them were doing things that would get people really quickly because they wanted to kind of steal market share, but then weren't doing wholesale. They'd only do online. So it's like, well, what if the online retail context kind of slows down, or which it did, and Instagram's like, you know, like direct sales would slow down 2 years later significantly, and we'd spent all that time building wholesale. So I think that first 3 to 4 years really taught me how many mistakes I almost made by being too distracted by others. And reminded me that the, you know, the grass is greener where you water it. And literally on Instagram, if you're on your competitor's page, you're like giving them engagement. And I just realised like I can't follow what they're doing. So I think I unfollowed or just blocked them until I could be sure that I wouldn't be tempted to do it. And that has meant that now that experience has made me very clear on, you know, we're talking about before, like how do I get anxious when I'm not on my phone and how am I comfortable with with the, you know, am I still getting joy from the platform? And I think I am now because of those experiences. It's taught me very much to just delete and block the people that don't make you feel good when you're on it and only follow the people that, that you get something out of. And I feel really confident that the stuff I put out there is stuff that I like, represents what I want to be doing and achieving for other people. So it makes it a really nice place to be rather than somewhere that's like pulling my eyes towards like people with better bodies or people whose businesses are doing better. And it's all just like fluff. Yeah. Like, and you realise that when you realise that what we're doing is fluff. So what they're doing must be fluff. And we did an incubator with Chobani, which was amazing. But again, like what you think a business is, what, what everything looks like on the outside is never what the operations are like. So there's no point getting all riled up about something when it's all just perception and smoke and mirrors. And the ones that are doing so well don't have a big following and don't market very well. And the ones that aren't doing that well look like that, you know. So it's just like, just focus on what you're— all you can control. Is what you're doing. And any time that you spend stressing on everything else is just a waste of your energy. And you've got so little energy and time as it is, like, that's not what you want to spend it on.

Josh: What do you think about having an internal list of all the things that you want to be doing? And when is there ever a point where you say, okay, I need to be the first to market with this? Like, I guess on that sort of competitor talk, I know that the Daily Talk Show, we've got a list of stuff that we want to get done. And it feels like there's a— opportunity to be first to market with those things. Uh, what's your vibe on giving something time versus trying to be the first to market?

Sarah: Yeah, that's a really hard one. I think in food it's a lot harder because you can't just go willy-nilly with things because if there's a mistake, like, it's a serious legal issue if there's like public liability or something like that. So we're a bit more careful before releasing anything because you have to get so many food approvals and registrations. But I still think being first to market, particularly now, is still so important because it's so rare. It's such a head start. It really is such a head start to not have competitors and to be— it's hard enough to start a new business, let alone when you're already competing against big players in the market who out-resource you. And, you know, I think, I think it's so— that's the whole done is better than perfect thing comes from that. It's like, you get— if, especially if no one else has done it before, just start and figure it out. But then if it's an app or something that if you, you don't want to sabotage yourself either. If you release it before it's ready and then you, you've got one chance to make your audience sure that it's going to be good, you kind of have to get in the middle of that somewhere in the middle.

Josh: I guess there's the financial investment as well. Yeah, it's like working out the right time. Like even I think with our studio space is it's like the reality is we could have kept doing the show without the space, without the equipment that we're using. And so it's, you know, it's— what could we— well, I mean, that's the question.

Tommy: And so when things are working and you're getting, you know, you're seeing some form of success metric on the incline, it's like the storey could be, oh no, everything we've done is why it's going up.

Sarah: Totally.

Josh: But it's hard to know because like when people walk into our studio, they're always like blown away and they're excited about it. If we had rocked up differently and it was a different scenario, would we be giving off the same brand and all that sort of thing? So it's, yeah, it's interesting.

Tommy: So when do you call bullshit on your own story?

Sarah: Ooh, that's a good question.

Tommy: I think we could call bullshit on the storey we've told ourselves, but we got this offer, so we're happy.

Josh: The lease is 2 years, option of 3.

Sarah: Yeah, I think that's kind of part of of your everyday journey. Like, there's a moment in every day where I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, I have no idea. And part of that imposter syndrome and that feeling of fraud is, I think, you know, I try— when I talk about self-doubt all the time, it's like the thing that's the most natural human reaction to stepping out of your comfort zone. And so if you're ever going to be a person who's learning and evolving, you're going to come across that feeling. And instead of seeing it as a bad thing, I think it's something that shows you that it's proof that what you're doing is actually worthy. It's going to teach you something and teach you something new. So that imposter syndrome just shows that you— if I didn't have that, I think I was either too comfortable because I was too sure of what I was doing, or I think that I wasn't checking myself enough to ever learn or evolve. So I think it happens every day. Every day I kind of cheque myself and I'm like, oh my God, I don't know. I have no background. Like something will happen in Matcha and even though it's been around for 5 years, I'm like, it could be double the size or it could be triple the size, or I could have had, you know, like 25 SKUs, or, you know, you hear these things in the news that, um, a tea company got acquired for like $2 billion or whatever it is, and you're like, oh, maybe I could have done that by now, and why haven't I? Is it because I don't know anything? I don't have any experience? And should I get investors? And like, you're always triple questioning your decisions because they're yours and no one else has helped you make them, and you're like, am I wrong? Like, and that's— I think that's just part of it.

Tommy: Are you hard on yourself?

Sarah: Very. Um, I think I— that's part of what keeps me driven is being hard on myself. I think the past year, and this is actually something I was going to say to you before, is that when you're making that decision before, you know, about do I do the next thing or do I start something new, over the last year what's become more important to me is what is that going to mean day to day. Because I think we chase how something sounds in the abstract and don't think about day to day. Is that going to be shit? Am I going to hate every day even though I like sound of how that sounds, or am I going to enjoy it?

Josh: It's like being an author. If you don't like sitting down and writing a fucking book, don't become an author.

Sarah: That's what I mean. Like, because it sounds great to be a published author and have your own book, I think a lot of people would go, yeah, sure. Like, I have to write a book because everyone has a book. Oprah has a book. Like, I can't be Oprah unless I have a book. But if you hate writing, you're committing to spending a year unhappy. And it's sort of like, is that really a good try to, I mean, how much do you care about the book thing? So I think I am very hard on myself, but this year because it's the wedding year, you know, I think I made a really big decision at the start of the year to be a little bit less hard on myself and just let myself be part of the 11 AM club some days. Because yeah, what do I buy?

Tommy: Where do I buy?

Sarah: Well, the big thing was, this is part of the checking yourself thing, is it If I am preaching finding a joy and I don't make time for it myself, then I am a fraud. Like that is so hypocritical to be like, well, I'm, you know, become so consumed in this podcast that I work in matcha and then I come home and do the podcast and then I have no time to read crime books or find joy. And I'm like, you know, on my laptop all the time, then I'm not seizing my yay, even though I'm telling you to do that, which is, you know, I think some of the, I mean, Gary Vee, you had Gary Vee on your podcast.

Tommy: I think I've heard him before. Or talk around, you know, you've got your thing that you want to make your full-time thing. So your side hustle and you need to keep your job like what you did, worked in the law firm but started on the side. For someone, and I know you've probably, you probably felt like this, you just want to get out. You don't like that advice.

Josh: It's not, you know, because you want to, you want to just paint your resume.

Sarah: Yeah, you're like, don't tell me that, you asshole.

Tommy: Do you think there's a time? When is that time? And from your lesson, what is that moment? Because I don't think it's just a dollar value of how much, how much money is coming in the door.

Sarah: Especially for those that— there are some products or business structures where by its nature you will never make enough. You'll never get it to the point that we need to jump unless you jump. So you're just going to keep chasing that if you wait too long. I think the moment for me was when they become mutually exclusive. And I think people forget as well that when you start a business like as a side hustle, you're not inundated straight away. Like, it takes you a while to grow to the point where you would even have enough to do full-time. I think people think it happens straight away, and then you suddenly, with this decision of like, oh my God, do I leave my job? But it happens slowly because you have to build to the point where you have enough to do every day. And I definitely didn't. I had more than enough time to still do my law job for the first 6 months. It wasn't until the minute where I realised I would have to say no to opportunities in the business because I physically had no more hours left when you get to that like real kind of grindy point where it just— everything's pushing and there's no more room for you to move, that's where it becomes necessary to either choose one or choose the other. And that's when it's not as scary anymore because you realise it is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. When you've still got your foot in kind of both and you can still kind of manage them together, I'm like, keep doing that because the cash flow will help you enormously. Your wage will probably help the business grow for the first, you know, however long it I think it's just when you are becoming your own opportunity cost in the equation, that's when you can consider leaving. Like, are you stopping it from ever getting bigger? If you've hit the maximum that you're ever going to get to without leaving, then it's maybe time to give it a chance because you can always go back.

Josh: Especially we've been talking a lot about perfect days and Tommy and I have gone into detail about our perfect day.

Sarah: What would you please share?

Josh: I know they go too long. They were like full episodes. But we want like seriously like 15 minutes on perfect days. What's your perfect day? If you were to go into extreme detail about your perfect day, waking up, what time? We know, 11.

Sarah: I mean, it's a pretty short day, to be honest.

Tommy: What time do you go to bed if it's 11 o'clock?

Sarah: Oh, that's when I've gone into a vortex of YouTube and I'm watching dogs coming home to their owners from Afghanistan. Like, it's a really great time. There's also pregnancy announcements when there's twins. It's the best.

Josh: Oh, really?

Sarah: I go, yeah, when there's twins and like they don't tell anyone that two have come out and then you can walk into the hospital. See, this is the shit that I end up doing in the middle of the night. And like they're holding one baby and then the dad pops out with the other and it's the best.

Tommy: The gender reveals gone wrong is another great rabbit hole.

Josh: Really good.

Sarah: I just, I can't, I can't go past an owner coming back from Afghanistan to the dog. It's just my, my, my real trigger point.

Josh: So the perfect day, what would you, if you were to go into details, seriously, like be outrageous with how long it goes for. I want like every, blow by blow. Yeah, blow by blow.

Sarah: Okay. Well, there'd be a sleep in. I'm a big sleeper-in-er, not a morning person. I force myself to be a morning person most of the time. And the first thing I always do is like—

Josh: What time are you waking up?

Sarah: Probably like a 7, 7:30.

Josh: Does the alarm go off?

Sarah: The alarm definitely goes off. I don't wake up naturally. Otherwise it's 11 AM.

Josh: Is that a perfect day as well?

Sarah: Oh no, that's a normal day. So on my perfect day, I would sleep naturally until I woke up, which is not on a weekend, probably like 9, like 9:30. I go for brekkie. I love brekkie dates. I go out for brekkie every single day. Like, I don't buy handbags, I don't buy jewelry. I'm not like a things girl, I'm an experiences girl and like food.

Josh: Poached eggs girl.

Sarah: I'm a poached egg smashed avocado girl. I'm so Melbourne, it's like ridiculous. Um, so I go out for brekkie. Um, gosh, I don't know. I think— I don't know if I'd work on— I think I would work. I think I'd have like a podcast episode to sit down and edit. I like feeling like I'm, you know, Producing something or, you know, where are you in the world? Oh, I love travelling more than anything, but extreme travel like our honeymoons in Egypt.

Josh: Amazing.

Sarah: Like we do weird stuff. I'd probably be in Africa or like, you know, on the beach in Seychelles or something. Haven't been to Poland.

Tommy: I'm just worried that you won't be able to get smashed evo at these places.

Sarah: I mean, that's tough.

Tommy: Mexico. Yeah, maybe.

Sarah: Yeah, Mexico.

Tommy: At least guac.

Sarah: I'm really, I'm a summer baby, so I'd be somewhere warm. Somewhere where there's a beach, but where there's also cafes that has mashed avocado.

Josh: Potentially California.

Sarah: Potentially.

Josh: Oh no, not much of a Los Angeles gal.

Sarah: I mean, it's a great holiday. I've never said gal before on the podcast. I'm sorry.

Josh: And we don't edit.

Sarah: You're fucked. Maybe somewhere more exotic. I think probably like a south of France. France. Okay. Or like Nice? Like, yeah. Or like a south of Italy. Yeah.

Josh: Okay.

Sarah: And so you're, um, so I'd be on my computer doing some learning things for my brain. Um, the golden retriever would be there. Nick would be there.

Josh: Um, it's about 10 grand in customs cost, like in getting the dog across.

Sarah: But, and then 6 months in quarantine to go home.

Josh: It's full on, isn't it?

Sarah: It's so full on.

Josh: Johnny Depp style.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: What happened?

Sarah: Yes. They actually have to live in quarantine for 6 months.

Tommy: That's I hope it's nice.

Josh: Well, we had Marley on and her mum worked at an airline and said that never take your dog on a plane.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So go on.

Sarah: Yeah. So he would somehow have shipped himself over on a nice dog retriever friendly boat. And there'd be a dip in the ocean, probably a run or like some kind of class. And then I would read a true crime book for the rest of the afternoon in the sun.

Josh: Do you speak French or Italian?

Sarah: Both.

Josh: Fuck, that's good.

Sarah: I speak a lot of languages. I love languages. Oh, I'm fluent in French. I did all my law exams in French.

Tommy: Wow.

Sarah: Um, I know it was stupid. I cried for like 3 months.

Josh: It was so stupid because, because law isn't hard enough. I know, they do it in a different language.

Tommy: That's just like—

Sarah: it was dumb in my brain. It was, you know how I force myself to into situations that are going to be beneficial, like at the end? I didn't think about But this was when I hadn't learned the whole day-to-day, what does this decision mean? You know, overall I was like, well, I'll be fluent at the end. So that's awesome. And then I hated every minute. I was like, I'm going to Europe on exchange and I'm going to be, you know, partying and on boats and stuff. And I was just studying the whole time.

Josh: So does that mean, would there be—

Sarah: So lame. So lame.

Josh: Would there be things in the legal system that you only know the French word for?

Sarah: Probably not. There's a few things in civil law, which is like like the system that applies in Europe, that we have common law in Australia. So there were some things that I was like, oh my God, that doesn't exist.

Josh: It is je ne sais quoi.

Sarah: Yes, exactly.

Tommy: I'm the guy that asked for French onion soup in France. They said, what?

Sarah: We just call it onion soup.

Josh: Exactly.

Sarah: And so you've had the Singaporean, and when he orders Singaporean noodles— he's not Singaporean, like he's grown up in Australia, yeah, from Tassie— and he goes, I'll just have the noodles. And they're like, which ones? He's like, well, I'm Singaporean, so I just call them noodles. I'm like, it's not funny. It's a dad joke walking. It's like you turn 30 and he went, dad jokes. Like, it's just gonna be my thing now.

Josh: Tommy's all about that.

Tommy: You don't even know how you can do them.

Sarah: They just come out.

Tommy: I mean, you can do your exams in French, I can do dad jokes.

Sarah: It's all good.

Josh: Dad jokes in French. And so you've done the class or you've gone in the water.

Sarah: Yeah, gone in the water.

Josh: What's the temperature outside?

Sarah: I reckon like a good 32.

Tommy: That's hot.

Sarah: A 32, but not a 35, like a 31, 32.

Tommy: It's a Euro 32.

Sarah: Yeah, so a warm Mediterranean water 32.

Tommy: Yum, that'd be nice.

Josh: You say yum?

Tommy: Yum.

Sarah: Yummy.

Josh: She's not drinking it. Gal. Gal yum. Daily talk show.

Sarah: So this is what happens. I've just spread the yay to you guys. This is great.

Josh: And we're not even past your exercise. So you've done—

Sarah: Yes, I've done some exercise. Had some exercise, the dogs had a swim, and then I find like a cliff or something where I can like spread out and just read a crime book for the rest of the afternoon. And then eat again, big eater, some kind of big Mediterranean feast.

Josh: Yum.

Sarah: And then, yeah.

Tommy: See, that's the right context for yolk sense. I got it right there, guys.

Sarah: And then, yeah, I don't know, just a nice Quiet evening, walking around.

Josh: Well, we fucked up because we didn't mention our partners at all.

Tommy: No, but you, your business partners. So your partners and business partners.

Josh: Yeah, but you haven't mentioned at all Nick throughout the whole perfect day.

Tommy: The dog got to mention.

Josh: The dog got to mention.

Sarah: No, and I said Nick. I said the dog and Nick, and that's because I've traditionally not said that. And then Nick's been like, wow, you.

Josh: I don't think you did say Nick.

Tommy: Did you say Nick?

Sarah: Oh, maybe I thought I did.

Josh: You were thinking him because I was thinking my wife, but I just Tommy literally, the other day, Tommy had a moment where he said, oh, and then I go on a flight to LA. And I was like, oh, with Bodhi, like your son is like, oh no. It's interesting. It's interesting about the perfect day because then it starts to reframe your normal day and you're like, oh, why don't I do all those?

Tommy: Yeah, well, you're nailing the breakfast. Yeah, just you're in Melbourne freezing.

Sarah: There'd be a massage. I'm a big big fan of massages. There'd be a massage in there. And then some Netflix, some crime-related. I'm so— it is so weird, okay? So I'm such a happy, optimistic, like the kindness of humanity, blah, blah, blah kind of person. And then my joy when I have everything stripped back is like war and crime and genocide. Like, it's like, what the fuck is wrong with me? Why does that make me happy and relaxed?

Josh: I think it's—

Tommy: Gulag Archipelago, have you read that?

Sarah: No. It's a fucked up I'll love it then.

Tommy: Part of history. Anyway.

Josh: Well, there's something interesting about like the world and all the shit that's going on. Like I went and did a big deep dive into North Korea like 2 years ago, just reading all of them. My people. And it's insane. Like I was reading, there's one, it's like a love storey or whatever, but it's like fascinating.

Sarah: Do you know, so I was born in South Korea. And people are always like, which Korea? I'm like, well, obviously the one that you can leave from.

Josh: Well, yeah, it's interesting because I think like there's only been a few defectors unless you're running through the DMZ.

Sarah: Yeah, which I can't go to.

Josh: Oh, because have you heard about that?

Sarah: In case I get snatched.

Josh: It is full on, isn't it? But you think about like just stopping for a moment and thinking about all the people that are in the world. And then think about like what they're doing. It's pretty crazy. I did it once, like I was flying over.

Tommy: What are they doing?

Josh: I was flying over Adelaide, like just in a plane. I remember once.

Sarah: Yeah.

Josh: And for some reason I fucking got chills. I'm like, fuck, look how many people are in Adelaide.

Tommy: I was flying from Israel to Italy and we're going over these look like desert areas and these rocky areas, and there's little lights on, and that's when I go, holy shit, look how—

Sarah: look at where people live.

Tommy: This is crazy. Mm. It's fucking—

Sarah: yeah, dot, dot, dot. This is the stuff that keeps me up at night, and I think that's why war fascinates me so much, is because it's the psychology, like the human condition. It's like, how did people like us degenerate to that state of affairs?

Josh: Well, how fucked would we be if we had to fight in war? That's the other thing I think about. Like, if all if things happened and all of a sudden we had to like sort shit out.

Sarah: We're hopeless.

Josh: Yeah, what would we do?

Sarah: So this is why I didn't go to Korea for 15 years because I have a birth certificate, not a passport, but there's a technicality where I could be called out for military service. Not now because I'm 30, but I could have been. And I was like, I don't feel like I'm equipped for that.

Tommy: Yeah, I just want to eat, not this bloody gunfight thing.

Sarah: Yeah, it's just not my vibe. Definitely not.

Josh: Have you been to South Korea then?

Sarah: I went back with Nike actually 3 weeks ago and it was the first time in 17 years.

Josh: Was it emotional or what was the experience like?

Sarah: Not really, because I left there when I was 6 months old and everyone's like, oh, but you know, do you remember being torn away? And I'm like, do you remember when you were 6 months old? Like I'm a full-blown white Australian country bumpkin in my brain.

Josh: Yeah.

Sarah: I only remember here. So it was like a like, it was, it was nice to be like, wow, this city has changed so much in 17 years. But also it was kind of like any tourist who's Australian going there and being like, cool.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Do you feel a connection?

Sarah: Not really. I mean, especially because even the locals know that we're Western because our body language and everything, and we're speaking English, obviously. They don't go, oh, come up to me and talk as if I'm from there. They're like, oh, like they speak English to me straight away. So I'm like, I don't feel like— yeah. Yeah, I'm a dormant spy. I think it's my fashion. Yeah, yeah. It's probably because I was looking for the smashed avocado and they were like, we don't do that here.

Josh: Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's great just talking shit with a fellow podcaster. It's fun. Yeah, just nice to— I like you in like the, you know, obviously you do normally doing interviews and stuff. So it's nice just to fucking talk absolute shit.

Sarah: Yeah, that's my favourite kind of talk.

Josh: Would you ever consider doing something that's like a an added on thing to what you do that is a little bit more like that? Well, not chatty, but just, yeah, loose where you can be really outrageous. Yeah.

Sarah: So every now and then I did it for my 30th. I do one where I just talk like people ask questions and then I just kind of like let it all come, let it all hang out. And it's a great time for all. And I think people are like, whoa, she's fucking weird.

Tommy: That's good though.

Josh: I appreciate it.

Sarah: Yeah, Nick and I are going to do one for our wedding where people can just go to town and we'll do like the newlyweds game and record it.

Josh: Oh, that'll be awesome.

Sarah: So it's less structured and it's more just— and I kind of— it depends on the guest as well. I feel like some guests, the episodes come out that way because they're like hysterical. And some of them come out a little bit more structured. But yeah, I've been thinking about more how I could do a more loose unplanned segment that wasn't researched. Maybe by bringing back guests who have already been on.

Tommy: So much power in that. Choose your own adventure as well would be something fun you could play, like cards or, you know, what is the— is that a card?

Sarah: Yeah, cards.

Josh: Oh, yeah.

Tommy: Just to choose your own adventure. So like, because you are so great at talking, you know.

Josh: The quote book, the quote calendar, was it? Or what was it?

Sarah: Yeah, it's a little flip book.

Josh: Yeah. I could imagine something around like choose a theme or something.

Sarah: Yeah.

Josh: Like questions and stuff too.

Sarah: Like the milkshake ones.

Tommy: Yeah.

Sarah: That was really fun. Yeah. I love that, those kind of chats. And I'd love to be a bit looser and like just chatting about random, random stuff. And I think like I encourage every guest to be that way. If they get onto something they're really interested in, we just go with it.

Josh: Well, it takes time too. Like, I think the other thing is it's like we always end up drawing out the ends because it's like we're just like a bit relaxed or we're exhausted by the end of the episode. And so we don't, we were out of podcast interview mode.

Sarah: Question mark.

Josh: Or just that mode.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so I feel like that's where it's actually some of the magic can be.

Sarah: Yeah, totally.

Josh: Yeah. Great. Thanks for being on the show, Sarah.

Sarah: Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is amazing.

Josh: Back on very soon for more fat chewing. Yeah, absolutely. It's a daily talk show. If you enjoyed the show, screen grab, share it on Instagram. Also cheque out Seize the Yay on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, anywhere podcasts are. Any, any, any episodes. Thanks, gals. You said gals.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: The other day though too.

Tommy: But I was probably taking the piss.

Josh: No, you weren't. You weren't. You were definitely saying, oh, like, you gals. Oh, you're saying it to Shameless. Every time you say gals, I just, my ears ring. It's just like trauma.

Tommy: But you said it, dude.

Josh: Yeah, I know, I did. But I was being a bit funny.

Sarah: But they are gals. I'm a gal. So it's a bit weirder to just kind of let out, let gal out of the box for the day.

Josh: If you would have listened to one episode of CZA based on our audience and all that work, a few gronks, the gronk squad.

Sarah: Gronk squad. Oh, that's a hard— okay, so I think my favourite episode is the one with Barney Miller, who's the paraplegic surfer.

Josh: I haven't heard that one yet.

Sarah: Him and his wife are legends, and he was very early, I reckon like episode 7, and is one of the happiest people I know. And he was 20, in a car accident, no alcohol, he was the passenger, driver got out pretty much with a scratch, and he was like like complete C6 quadriplegic.

Josh: Wow.

Sarah: And he learned to walk again to— no, kneel again to propose and walk again to have their first dance. And it's just like the most beautifully chilling, amazing storey just about humanity. Like, they're amazing.

Josh: Amazing.

Tommy: Put it in the show notes.

Sarah: Yeah, they're so much fun.

Josh: Thank you. Uh, hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys. Bye, girls.