Marlee Silva, Tiddas 4 Tiddas

Marlee: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 436.

Tommy: And we have a special guest in the studio, Marlee Silver. How are you?

Marlee: I'm fantastic. How are you guys?

Josh: Oh, we're very good. Yeah. You're in Melbourne.

Marlee: I am. Thank you for reminding me.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: You're in our studio, just in case you didn't know where you were.

Josh: Well, it feels like a bit like a casino. So people will come in here and they don't realise how long they've been in this space. It's got like—

Marlee: Yeah, the lighting.

Josh: There's no light. There's no windows. There's no clock.

Tommy: You just lose less money here.

Marlee: Yeah, that's good.

Tommy: That's fine. Actually, watch your wallet. Don't get away from it.

Josh: So, we actually met, it's probably like the start of the year.

Tommy: I think it was last, that was last year.

Josh: Was it really?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I think it was January.

Tommy: Was it? I think it was, it was the, yep. Trust me. It was the year before.

Josh: 2018.

Tommy: So, we made a video with Ziggy Ramo.

Marlee: Yep.

Tommy: Love Ziggy. And you were there, you helped sort of tee that all up. And then the video came out much later. That's why I think you think it was the next year.

Marlee: Honestly, the last 12 months is blurred into one. Yeah, second.

Tommy: It's been very busy for you because when we first met you, you didn't have your podcast at that point.

Josh: We didn't have Titus for Titus at all. So I remember seeing on Instagram you did a post and I was like, oh, what's this thing? I click through and I start following from the Daily Talk Show. And then over the course of 6 months, you've gone from— how do you describe what's happened?

Marlee: Oh, it's just been like it. An explosion. Completely surpassed what I expected. Like, I started it on a whim and kind of thought that it would consist of me putting these storeys that I cared about out into the ethos. And, you know, my friends and family would be like, oh, that's cool. But that would be it. And then, yeah, we're like at 15.7 thousand.

Tommy: Now, what came first? The the Instagram page. Like the name? Because a lot of people like won't do something, i.e., Josh, unless you can get the Instagram handle. And so, which I think, you know, having an Instagram, like having an idea turning into an Instagram, it then can evolve into something bigger, which it has. Tiddas for Tiddas. What is it for people that aren't, you know, get with it? 15,000 people are already following it, so start following it.

Marlee: So Tidda is an Aboriginal slang word which means sister. So essentially it translates as Sisters for Sisters, and it's, yeah, social media based, but we're starting to move into different areas. A platform that's all dedicated to empowering and inspiring Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women by sharing storeys of everyday women and big role models and leaders from across the country in what they're doing. And yeah, it's now a podcast, which is kind of insane. So it's an interesting storey how that came about. Um, one of our— I think I commented on a, um, a post about Brooke Boney doing an interview with Mia Friedman from The Account, and Mia saw it and stalked me and then slid into my DMs and asked me over for a cup of tea and said, you know, I mean, obviously a few things happened in between that, but literally within a week of her messaging me, she was like I think we can offer you a podcast. I was like, what? Okay.

Josh: And has that been a thing that strategically, have you always thought about the marketing? Like you've got a communications background, that's what you do. Has that been something of like, I'm going to comment and then this will happen and this happens?

Marlee: I would like to think that I had some sort of strategy going on. I mean, the reason we grew so quickly, we had 1,000 followers within a week because my sister is mates with Latrell Mitchell, the rugby league player. And messaged him and kind of was like, hey, if you think this is cool, share it on your story. And he actually did a post about it.

Josh: Amazing.

Marlee: You know, like, so instantly from him doing that, like, my phone died from how many people were like following us and stuff. I realised that if we wanted to reach more people, we'd have to get the right people on board. So yeah, I think there's probably a little bit of strategy around like one, who you're following and like what you're keeping tabs on and being very engaging and not only like commenting on lots of things, but like commenting back and making sure message people back and all that kind of stuff.

Tommy: So when was that? 2018 November?

Marlee: Yeah.

Tommy: And so fast forward to now, you're in Melbourne this morning. You were doing a talk.

Marlee: Yeah.

Josh: So you had the Madonna microphone on.

Marlee: I saw that. Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, you could hardly see it.

Marlee: It's very, very discreet, but I definitely feel like a wiggle every time. I just want to go like, you still can. Own it. Own it.

Tommy: It's your stage.

Josh: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that could be a brand value.

Tommy: And so, and so do you think that something like this morning, The Talk, wouldn't have come about had you not sort of taken that first step in starting?

Marlee: Yeah, it's weird because this whole like speaking life is not that new to me. I used to work in the nonprofit sector and my, a big part of my role that I had for a 12-month period, it was I was a co-CEO of an organization, which was like a 12-month sort of like a cadetship where I worked really closely with the CEO. And it meant that I was in a lot of rooms like I was this morning and telling my story. So like my first job as part of that role was to write a 20-minute keynote to present to a room full of 200 people. And I had never done that before. And I was 20 at the time. So I very much had to learn on my feet. And I think that, yeah, I had a lot of opportunities where I've been able to share like that. So maybe I would have been asked to something like this, but no, definitely not the context of this particular event because it's about inspiring like big businesses to think more socially and how they can give back and provide new opportunities for different groups to do better. So I think almost being considered a businesswoman isn't completely a new thing for me.

Tommy: Do you see yourself as a businesswoman?

Marlee: I don't know if I feel comfortable with it yet because I guess because there's all these little branches of the Titties for Titties concept that are kind of emerging with podcast and then there's, you know, we're doing some stuff in schools and there's more people who want us to do face-to-face stuff, it's going to end up something of a business. I don't know how you would categorise it at all.

Tommy: I don't think you have to think you're a businesswoman to become a businesswoman. I don't, you know, it's like being just starting a business. It's these things can happen so organically where you see something getting traction. You're like, you know, I think I was, my wife was saying last night, she's like, we're talking about Zoe Foster-Blake and Go To Skincare, and, and she— and we're just talking about that business, and she's like, I don't know if I could do that. But I don't know if you think ahead that far that you— like us right now, we can't be the version we want to be this moment because we have to get there. But it starts somewhere.

Marlee: And I think it's also for women in particular to kind of, uh, outwardly share that that's what they're aspiring to, or even talk about pursuing something like that because there's still this stigma of, you know, wanting to be— and also like it's an Australian attitude, right? Like the tall poppy syndrome sort of stuff. Like if you talk about it like that, it can be quite scary, like people's responses and people doubt you. Yeah, particularly if you're a woman or if you're an Aboriginal woman or the expectations are just like very low.

Josh: But there's also a huge expectation around like as an Aboriginal woman having to feel, I guess, like representing a whole community. How do you reconcile that? Is there a technique or a way that you view it?

Marlee: Well, it's interesting because the first time I guess I was expected to be the representative and the knowledge holder of 80,000 years of history was in high school. I was the only Aboriginal student there until my sister got there. I grew up in the Sutherland Shire in New South Wales, Cronulla, very famous for race riots. And I, you know, it's a very high Anglo-Saxon population and most of my peers had never met an Aboriginal person before. So at a moment where I was essentially outed to my school as a blackfella, a lot of questions came flying at me, um, ones that were, you know, kind of ill-informed because kids, right, who grow up in households where their parents talk a certain way.

Josh: Yeah, but all kids are pretty dumb. Like, that's like, if we're being—

Tommy: I should always assume dumb.

Marlee: No filter, no filter as well, right? No, you know, you're still learning your social cues and like what's appropriate and stuff.

Tommy: So, but I definitely think the product of environment, like you're saying, the parents. Like, I think about myself when I was young and the the dialogue then compared to now, it's completely different, right? Or maybe I've just become slightly more intelligent, but not that much.

Marlee: But you also have to unlearn certain things as you become an adult. But like one, you know, question in particular that has— I talk about very often because it's kind of like the central point of my life where I kind of think of everything as happening before that or after it. And it was after my dad picked me up from school one day and one of my peers saw him and asked me the next day, um, why my dad was Black. And never had I heard someone be called a color. And it was like the first— because growing up in a mixed household, it's obviously not something you ever talk about because it's not relevant, um, like in terms of skin color. Obviously culture is a different thing, but skin colour is a, you know— I think when you bring that into it, it becomes the, the ostracising element of society. So that was the real moment where you kind of go, oh my God, like, people think that my dad is different to their dad because of how he looks or whatever. But yeah, so that was the moment I was outed, right? And so then you start getting asked about what a witchetty grubs taste like, and do you believe in the Dreamtime? And then also like about our history and like, you know, what does this mean? Or tell us about this. And this is even teachers would ask me this sort of stuff.

Tommy: And what kind of knowledge around that stuff did you have at that age?

Marlee: My knowledge was like my family's storeys and my experience as an Aboriginal woman. So, you know, like, but it's stuff that I accepted as normal. When you're not, you know, it would be like we always went into Yarrban, which is the festival that they hold in Victoria Park in Sydney on January 26th. Never had I celebrated Australia Day, but I also didn't know that that wasn't normal, and I didn't realise the tensions around the day. And I also didn't realise until much later on in my adolescence that it was quite— it was like a divisive day. Like, as much as I knew that we weren't celebrating, I didn't really question it. I didn't go, why are we— why are we mad? Or why why do we do this and then all my mates go down to Cronulla for the big festival and wear the Australian flag. And also, so I don't know, you know, subconsciously why I don't feel like I connect to that flag, but I connect to mine.

Tommy: And what about Dad? Is that something that he was not— so he wasn't aware of, or he was and he kept that from you?

Marlee: Yeah, I think that Mum and Dad did a like a good job of protecting us from things, but it wasn't like they were trying to wrap us up in cotton wool. It was more like, nah, this is just how it is. And like, they didn't politicise things when it came to— I loved Yarrabin so much. I loved that day because I would be in with all my family at this awesome festival and we'd just be talking about how mad it is to be a blackfella. And so yeah, we just accepted it. That's what it was. And then it wasn't until people started going, well, why do you do that? And I remember one girl my sister had been in at Yarrabah with us and she had like our flag tattooed on her face. And then she'd gone to meet her friends at the beach after, and one of them said, why do you have that flag on? It's Australia Day. I mean, again, what we were just saying, kids, dumb.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Marlee: But like, that was one of the first times where you kind of go, wait, what? Like, we, we are this country. Like, we're the foundations of it, you know? And Also, I think I didn't even realise it was a national day of celebration, like in the way that it, I guess it is. And then that, you know, it's all those little touch points where you kind of have these glass-shattering moments of realisation that I live in a bubble. And a bubble that, you know, is a microcosm of what you would like to think Australian society is. I'm a very multicultural family, like even on my mom's side, my mom's white and like I have cousins who are Lebanese and Filipino and they're married to Islanders and it's like the UN, like.

Josh: Yeah. Well, in some ways, like you're describing that you became a novelty within the playground, which I find interesting because your dad's a cop. And I feel like as a kid, if you found out that someone's dad was a cop, it's always like, how many people has he shot? Like, has he got a gun all the time?

Marlee: Well, see, this is the trifecta because Yeah, we're Aboriginal. He's a cop and he's a former rugby league player.

Tommy: I thought you were going to say you had a double storey house growing up because that was big.

Josh: That was huge. Yeah. That was a big question.

Tommy: Swimming pool.

Josh: Yeah. Waterbed. Always wanted to ask you about the waterbed. Like, how do you fill it up? You know, a lot of novelties. And so, yeah. So like, was that it? Was that even a weird thing? Like, would people bring up the whole cop thing as well?

Marlee: Oh yeah. I mean, people were scared of Dad because they'd be like, oh, big black guy with a gun. But then they'd talk to him for 30 seconds and realise he's actually a 15-year-old boy with a gun. Yeah, but he loves— like, he just mucks around. Like, he's not a very serious guy at all, but people just look at him because he looks like a cop in a room standing there. He looks like a cop.

Tommy: People serious always say that. Yeah, I'm not that serious. But then he's got the badge and the gun.

Marlee: Yeah, yeah, but he just loves a laugh, so um, particularly when like boys would come to the house. Um, I had a lot of male friends and they'd always like— you just see the look on their face when Dad would walk in the room. They go, hello Mr. Silver. And they'd be like, oh, what up, man? Like, and then they're like, oh, okay, cool. Like, it's fine. But it was the cough thing. And then, um, yeah, also the footy thing was a big thing. Yeah. Um, especially when they were—

Josh: we got to that kind of age group where there was a lot of boys around me who wanted to be And so, so when you, when the teachers start asking you questions, I mean, you're meant to be the student learning and the teachers are asking these things. Did you then go home and ask a bunch of questions or did you feel the responsibility?

Marlee: Yeah, definitely. At first I was exactly that, that feeling of like, hey, you're meant to be teaching me. Crap, am I a bad Aboriginal person? Like, should I be knowing all of this straight away? And in hindsight, it's like, no, like You know, first of all, the way that we pass down knowledge has been damaged through all the atrocities and removal of culture that we've seen in the last 250 years. But also, I'm young and I, you know, wanted to learn at the same rate as everyone else. But I did go home and ask so many questions. And one of my uncles is an academic and he is like he genuinely is one of the knowledge holders of our family. And I remember ringing him, uh, asking Dad for his number to ring him, and Dad was kind of like, okay, whatever. And I spoke to him for a few hours, and I was like, can you just like tell me about this, tell me about that? And, um, he, he was really helpful in that sense. And the more I learned about my family's stories, I think that was, you know, what I focused on for a long time. So when I was representing myself, that's who I was representing. And then I, you know, as much as my parents had done a really good job of, you know, not politicising things, not that it's a bad thing to do so, I became very political very, very quickly. And, you know, very angry. I was a very angry teenager. And it's crazy. Like, there was one point where I'd had peers write Marley Silver sniffs petrol on school property, graffitied it. Um, and I was just sick of it. And I remember sitting at the dinner table next to my white mother and saying, I hate white people. Like, that was the point that I was pushed to, which is insane. And it's taken a few years. Like, I still have, you know, problems trusting, um, non-Indigenous people sometimes, like, particularly in certain corporate environments. And some people, when You can kind of see the way that they react when I have, you know, my flag on because I always have different Aboriginal earrings on and things like that. And people kind of look at you and you just get scared. And it's not scared because I think they're going to be, you know, blatantly racist to me, but they have expectations. So it was, it was a weird journey to kind of navigate. I think every teenager goes through that identity crisis.

Tommy: I mean, going through it and identity crisis as a teenager is hard enough.

Marlee: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: And did you feel that— was there a fork in the road where you had to go down the path of activism and really being strong versus not?

Marlee: Yeah. So, I mean, I found that that fork in the road was almost when someone asked me, you know, why Dad was Black a little bit. And then it kind of was furthered because the school kind of leadership saw me as almost like a PR opportunity for the school because I was academically pretty good. And so they would parade me out in front of the Department of Education as the ideal Aboriginal student. I would go to any kind of event that they had opportunity to send me to. And actually, probably in year 10, I went to this leadership camp in Queensland and I was like the youngest one there. It was mostly like senior students. And over like 4 days of just having these amazing leaders like talk to us and kind of really pump us up and just tell us how amazing it is to be Aboriginal. That was probably the moment I realised like, hey, I have a voice. And you know, there's people who wanna listen to it and who are kind of excited by me and like all the young people around me. So that was probably the first time I was— I think it's being pushed into that leadership position where you kind of go, okay, this is, you know, maybe I have to speak out a little bit more.

Tommy: And, um, so does that shift from a feeling of anger to channelling that just energy?

Marlee: Yeah, into a purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I was still pretty angry until I probably— I left school and then you get to uni And I loved uni because I loved, you know, being able to choose what I studied and also not being told what to do by teachers.

Josh: Did you get into the extracurricular activities and stuff?

Marlee: I did. Well, I volunteered in a few things, like all things like related back to helping the Aboriginal community. And yeah, it was like starting again. It was like a clean slate at uni. And I found myself being like, hey, like my storeys and like what I've gone through, um, because I was volunteering with Aboriginal kids. I've turned it into something positive. It's now a tool to help people get through what I went through and also educate non-Indigenous people about like what's appropriate. Um, so that was the beginning point. So 18 is probably the time where I was like, hey, I'm— I've dealt with my emotions, I'm doing pretty good, and like let's do this, let's do something more.

Josh: Is there education that you end up doing with your family and parents too? Because I feel like you're getting such a unique perspective where you're talking to all— like, you're in that space, you're having that conversation. Has there been interesting conversations within the family based on that?

Marlee: Yeah, um, it's, it's really interesting because my sister and I, um, we're less than 2 years apart. We're only 1 year apart at school, and we had very similar experiences, exactly the same upbringing, but very different responses to it. Um, so it really impacted her self-confidence, and it kind of— she turned inward while I went outward. Um, so that's caused a little bit of tension in the household, like, not to a point where it's like a big problem, but there's been things we've disagreed on in terms of how we respond to things. So that's a really interesting discussion because Yeah, we're talking about the exact same thing. We have different perspectives on it, and it's kind of that whole like pick your battles thing and, um, you know, managing your energy and like who you should be, you know, addressing it and that sort of stuff. And for, um, Mum and Dad, I think the, the hardest thing for them is both of them had hoped that what my dad went through as a young man was not something we'd ever have to see or ever have to experience. And I think Mum talks about being really heartbroken and feeling quite hopeless at some of the stuff that we went through. That and more stuff that I think we must have blocked out or something because she— there's been a couple of times I've told storeys in sort of platforms like this and she's like, I didn't know about that. And I'm like, really?

Tommy: Yeah, mums can do that. They've got a great power of blocking stuff out that was very hard for them. I mean, they're older, they understand, they're seeing things. And then it probably affects them. Like, I've got a young son and I think about the future and, you know, that kind of— I know my mum, struggles I went through, she can't remember.

Marlee: Yeah.

Tommy: But I remember them.

Josh: Yeah.

Marlee: Yeah. So I have felt, you know, bad for them because I don't want them to think they didn't do enough because it's got absolutely nothing to do with them. We had the perfect environment to grow up in. We're so lucky in so many ways. But it's also accepting that as much as you can have the best place at home, you're not safe from the outside world. Um, and so yeah, that, that's been hard. And in the sense that I, I, I'm sorry for them to feel like that, um, because it's just so not their fault and they did everything right. It's just unfortunately the rest of the world isn't like us.

Josh: How do you experience gratitude? Like, I feel like when you're dealing with such massive issues um, it could be so easy, or like, I— and also makes so much sense to be in it and thinking about it. Um, how do you fit gratitude amongst, amongst all your experiences?

Marlee: Like gratitude for—

Josh: well, I think like, like from a— so for instance, all the things that have happened and the activism that you're doing and all that sort of thing, you're having— you're reliving all of these horrendous moments. And we get told all the time by self-help, it's like, you gotta be good. Like, gratitude is so important.

Tommy: Finding gratitude in the pain?

Josh: No, no, no, definitely not the pain, but just having fucking balance in life where it's like, if you're spending all this time doing that stuff, how do you then on the weekend chill, like chill the fuck out as well?

Marlee: Oh yeah, I don't really have weekends. What are they? Downtime. Someone asked me about downtime this week and an interview, and I was like, uh, sleep. Yeah, that's my downtime. But, um, no, I— the biggest thing that you need, and this is something I've actually had to learn in the last 18 months, so a bit later on in the piece, um, is who you surround yourself with. It is so vital. Like, halfway through last year, I found myself in a bit of a social rut, and it kind of was affecting my career path because I was still doing my honours at uni and was figuring out, you know, what I would do when I had to become a real adult after it. Um, and I kind of felt a bit stuck and a bit icky and just like I didn't feel like myself. And, um, I realised it was because the people I was hanging out with, and as much as they're not bad people at all, they're just normal, you know, 20-something-year-olds, they were living for the weekend and they were worried about, you know, drinking. They were just all they would do on a Monday is text in the group message and be like, "Far out, I can't wait for a beer on Friday." Yeah. You know, like, and I'm like, whoa, that's so not me at all. Like, yeah, I like to have fun and, and, you know, when I do have the off chance of downtime and chilling out, um, but I, I don't have the time to like be, you know, so hungover on a Sunday that I can't plan for my week.

Josh: Yeah.

Marlee: And, um, I actually— you need your body to be able to recover and you can't do that if you're just absolutely slaughtering it every single weekend. And so, you know, it's scary to do at 23, but I had to like make new friends.

Tommy: And how do you— do you cut them off or you just stop talking to them or what's the approach?

Marlee: You just gradually move away.

Tommy: Yeah. You say no to going to the pub 10 times, they probably won't ask you another one.

Marlee: Exactly. Exactly. And it's hard because there's no— there was no confrontation and it's not like I have any animosity towards these people. It's just a lifestyle difference. And yeah, there was a point in time when I was interested in going out every weekend, but I just don't have the energy for it anymore. And it doesn't fill me back up. I know I've realised the first time I worked full-time, I took a year off uni to be that co-CEO position and I burnt out really quickly.

Josh: Were you doing vlogging? I saw the couple of vlogs that you did. You were vlogging?

Marlee: Yeah.

Josh: That's not— 15-day mark, 30-day mark. Yeah. That was good. I loved it.

Tommy: I mean, how far did you get?

Marlee: I was supposed to do it. Like, I didn't do videos all the time. It was just when I couldn't be bothered to write something.

Josh: I think it's great. Like, yeah, I mean, the thing that stands out to me with you is like listening to your podcast and watching is your ability just to present and communicate. And the even like we're talking off air about my inability to hold on to information. And then you just like, like I can talk, but I can't. It's not that I make sense. And so I think the people you hang around, is it me? I mean, is it not hanging out with anyone? Was that a skill that you found early on and just worked on and developed?

Marlee: Like storytelling?

Josh: Yeah, storytelling.

Marlee: So I was super shy when I was like a little kid. My mum was very worried about it as I was going to primary school because I would like, we'd be at a, you know, family friend's barbecue and I would be like attached to her leg and like wouldn't go play with the other kids and stuff.

Josh: Because kids are dumb.

Marlee: Yeah, because obviously I knew that early on. Um, and so she was scared when I was going to go to primary school that I wouldn't make any friends. Um, so she put me into drama class. And, um, being on stage and telling a storey is— I, I don't know, just, I just have this inherent passion and I think a talent for it that, um, yeah, I refined a little bit over 15 years of drama classes.

Josh: What sort of productions did you work on?

Marlee: What were you, uh, um, oh God, what?

Tommy: Surely there's a Grease.

Marlee: No, no, I— oh, absolutely no musical talent at all. Um, oh my God, why can't I remember Shakespeare? What's that play everyone does it and it's the witches like in the—

Josh: oh, um, The Crucible.

Marlee: The Crucible. That was pretty cool. Um, and then for my Year 12 drama individual performance. I did a 10-minute monologue from the film Candy with Heath Ledger and Abbie Cornish. So heroin addict, really light subject matter. But yeah, I found myself like as a teenager a little bit socially awkward, and I felt more comfortable standing on a stage talking to a room full of, you know, 400 to 500 people than I did, you know, talking to my hairdresser. Yeah. I hate hairdressers.

Josh: I can really relate to you.

Tommy: And are you still that person? Um, you don't have to say you hate your hairdressers.

Marlee: No, no, no. I don't hate individual hairdressers. I just don't like social groups.

Josh: Do you go to the same hairdresser all the time?

Marlee: No, no, no, no.

Josh: This is my problem. Yeah. So what do you do? You just go to a random one each time?

Marlee: Well, so my hair is quite short now. I cut it. Cut a lot of it off at the beginning of the year.

Josh: As in, you're personally cutting your hair now just so to avoid the hairdresser?

Marlee: So before this, for the past 3 years prior to cutting it this short, my mum has been trimming it because I refused to get the hairdresser.

Josh: Yeah.

Marlee: And then I was like, nah, I want to go really short and I don't trust you— excuse me— um, with the scissors to do that because I'll probably end up with a bowl cut. So I went to the hairdresser's and, um, no, my hairdresser is really lovely. Okay, great. And she has cute little kids, so I actually just talk to the kids.

Josh: Um, but yeah, yeah.

Marlee: Yeah, so that was kind of where I guess I never felt like I trained to be able to tell a story, but I guess that's kind of what it was. And then also, I don't know. Yeah, I guess it's just that passion. And I feel like when I spoke this morning, someone like took a picture of me and like put it on Instagram and I like reshared it on my storey and my mom messaged me being like, oh my God, like like, how do you not like crap your pants when you do this?

Tommy: And I'm like, you do, it's a nappy.

Josh: Every TED Talk, they've all got nappies.

Marlee: Um, and I said to her, it actually makes me feel really good. Like, I don't feel nervous. Um, maybe I'm a sociopath, uh, but I genuinely just feel— but yeah, no, it makes me feel really good.

Josh: Is it because it's your story? Are there certain things where it's like, oh, this out of my realm and I'm not comfortable?

Marlee: I haven't found it yet. I think because I, I don't know, I'm very clear on what my messages are and like what my purpose is in particular rooms that I don't have any desire to kind of wander off into things I'm not qualified to talk about.

Tommy: Is it cathartic?

Marlee: Yeah, I think it's been a massive part of the healing process. I can tell these storeys now in this way and not get upset, not because they're not emotional anymore, but because I've healed from it. And I guess that goes back to that, the gratitude thing, because I'm thankful of the opportunity to share and to learn in telling the storey as well, because you learn more about yourself in the way you tell things. And now, yeah, being in a space where I'm strong enough to do that and to be vulnerable and also to call people out on things., you know, especially on a big platform, which is, that was something that was a little bit scary as we grew quite big, because it means that more people see you and then more people who are not part of the community that you want to be a part of it.

Josh: Yeah.

Marlee: Who kind of are just like, again, blatantly racist or like their own opinions and things like that. That was scary for me, not because it was going to affect me. Because of, you know, what I've just been talking about, but because we have lots of young people who follow us who are not at that point, and I didn't want them to have to see it on what is such a positive place for us. Um, and then when it happened a couple of times, you know, I also had to catch myself in how much I, you know, gave them. And when you go to a point where you're like, I'm not going to change this person's mind or teach them anything, so just block and delete. So that's kind of like a, a weird thing as well.

Josh: Have you found, like, obviously the intergenerational trauma is such a massive part of this whole thing. The healing that you experience, does— do you find that it— do you see a change in your dad or your family through your healing?

Marlee: I don't know if it's directly a result of me or if it's also because there's this changing attitude externally as well. But the way my dad's opened up about a lot of the stuff that happened in his childhood in the last 2 years has been amazing. And his brother's done the same thing, um, and I think they're all coming to terms with how abusive their father was, um, and how much domestic violence my nan went through. And I'd never heard them talk about it before. And my dad's a White Ribbon Ambassador, and he actually like did a video series about it And, you know, got a bit of backlash from some of his cousins who obviously didn't live with his dad and stuff. And like, you know, my pop's now passed away, and so they were like, you're disrespecting him or whatever. Um, but he just like was so brave and like so was like, again, it's, it's that healing process. And he's like, people can learn from what I went through. So yeah, I think maybe it's because we are constantly talking about stuff, constantly sharing storeys in our house, and talking about culture and what it means, and like what our— for myself and my sister, like what our goals are moving forward, that maybe that's had some impact on dad sharing. But also because there is this kind of growing voice all over Australia of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are killing it in whatever game that it is that they play. And, you know, using their platforms to talk about this stuff and normalise it and change people's perspectives.

Tommy: Yeah, you talked about your sister and yourself, similar upbringing, different experience, different way of coping with it. Like, from listening to your podcast, you know, some of them made me feel really uncomfortable and then some of them didn't. And they're different storeys and they're people that have experienced a similar thing dealing with them in different ways and having a different outlook. What have you learned about hearing that sort of that difference across people having the same experience but just different perspective?

Marlee: Um, it's really interesting. I think that I'm learning so much more about my culture and like the how varied and diverse the Aboriginal experience is. I've never doubted that there's no one way to be an Aboriginal person or there's no one experience that makes you you know, more Aboriginal than anyone else. Uh, you know, we really are a continent. Um, you know, before invasion there was over 500 different nations and so many different language groups and things like that. And I think that I've just had it reaffirmed in me that as individuals we represent that diversity in our experience. Um, I think that it means that some of the issues we face are far more complex because how they need to be addressed in different communities is like, some of them is so different. Um, and it's also like really beautiful. I think if you think about, um, the thousands of people who do identify as Aboriginal and all of their storeys playing part, a part in the continuation of the 80,000 years that we've already had, which is this kind of amazing tapestry of, um kind of immense beauty and strength and also immense sadness and, you know, resilience and heartbreak, um, that is— has the power to, I think, solve a lot of the issues that we see in this country across the board, regardless of whether they're Indigenous-specific or not. Um, and I, I guess a big part of what I want to see is like the rest of Australia looking at that and learning from it and Also, when they address individual Aboriginal people, not going in with any expectation because like you can think you know something because you've met 5 Aboriginal people, but the 6th one is going to be a completely different story.

Tommy: I mean, what I like about the podcast is that there is the difference in these storeys and I guess maybe anger level or a way of communicating is that everyone receives information and digests it, actually embodies it differently. So is there a— have you found, you know, like, is the anger— do you think that translates to education for someone on the other end? Because I think my thought from listening was I think it might for some. Yeah, maybe not for other people, but nor that other style might not connect.

Marlee: Yeah, it is interesting that you raise this because it's An interesting thing that I was talking about with a friend of mine recently, he's also Aboriginal, the way that we respond, you know, anger is like the natural instinct, I think, because when injustice happens, that's how you feel. You feel angry and frustrated and you kind of want to fight fire with fire a little bit. But if we want to be really realistic about bringing people with us, I think there's a real fine line there. I think you need to be able to cement with people like how serious this is and how they really need to pay attention, but also not ostracise them and kind of talk to them as if they are like, I don't know, the devil in this kind of situation. Um, and I think it's because I was that person for a very long time. I was that person and no one was walking— no non-Indigenous person wanted to listen to me because I was like, you are this, and you know, blah blah blah. So there's still plenty of times, like in my speech today, I finished it by talking about, you know, when people hear these stories, they always say like, how can we help you? How, you know, what can we do to help you help Aboriginal people? And I had to be quite honest and say, just because you're white doesn't mean you're more qualified to. So I think something like that and not being like, don't come at us like this and whatever, whatever. It's an honest statement, it's an open one, and it's one that I think causes, you know, some dialogue that in this particular room, no one got defensive on it. They just went, okay, cool. Like, I'll listen to you sort of thing.

Josh: Well, you shouldn't have to have all the answers in all of this. I even notice like anytime I have someone from overseas come and visit, they'll ask just very basic questions about like even just Melbourne. Like, why is that street there? And I realise how little I know about everything. And then I can only imagine as an Aboriginal woman how much you experience every day of people just asking every question.

Marlee: And I do put myself in a position where I guess people, um, yeah, feel like they can come to me to ask questions. Um, I actually had an experience recently which caused a bit of division on the platform, um, where someone I went to school with who— yeah, like, I've obviously spoken about what my school experience was like and The handful of people who like backed me and supported me and even just comforted me when some things did happen was quite small. And the rest kind of went, "Mm, like we don't get it. Like you're not really that Aboriginal," because of how I looked. And also like the get over it sort of attitude. And this person who reached out to me on my personal Instagram was one of those people who was indifferent. And also like, I very distinctly remember, I shouldn't say her, but now I've said her, oh well. Her saying that she was scared of Black men and she didn't know why, like in front of me, like for no apparent reason. And she'd message me and ask me a favour about connecting her to an Aboriginal artist, and I just blatantly said no. And she kind of was like, oh, why? And I was like, look, I just think it's ridiculous that the two times that you've reached out to me since high school have been because she'd asked me to help her with a uni assignment like 2 years ago, and again I said no. And now she's asking me for this. I have been to do things that would benefit you in your workplace, in your study, but it's got— you have no appreciation with the culture and no vulnerability of going like, hey, you know, I'm growing, I'm learning, and you just are coming to me as if I'm Aboriginal Google, right? And I posted about it on Titties for Titties because I think it was something that, um, a lot of people don't realise is kind of quite taxing. So I, on the Titties for Titties platform, I answer every single question, and I want people to ask questions. And everyone always comes to me from a place of like, I really just don't know. It's not demanding, it's just open and honest. And there's times where I have to go, I actually don't know, and, and that's fine. And it's a really, really amazing kind of exchange of learning. So, when I posted about it, I was like, hey, like we need to talk about this because it takes a lot of energy a lot of the time to be that cultural spokesperson because like we've talked about, we don't know everything. And I'm also stupidly busy all the time and I don't have the time to do certain things, especially when it's something that you can literally just put into Google.

Tommy: Yeah.

Marlee: So the response was really interesting because like a vast majority of people were like, oh my God, this happens to me all the time. Like, I'm so glad you're talking about it because, you know, you want to find a nice way of being able to go like, yes, I want you to ask questions and that's great, but also pick the time and like respect me when you do it. And then there was other people who were like, no, you shouldn't post about this because it's going to turn people away from wanting to ask these things and then they'll just think that, um, someone made a comment about like kind of the angry Black woman trope, which made me a little bit mad, which is ironic. Um, and so that, that division was really kind of interesting and complex. And like then people, like people who commented sort of like opposition to me, the people who were in agreeance with me would like comment back and stuff. And I was like, whoa, like let's not— when— this is not a place to argue. Like this is really important discussion, and I think it can be really constructive. And for the first like hour after I posted it, because it like blew up really quickly, I was like, oh God, should I have done that? But by the end of the day, I was like, no, this was really good. This was important. And like, it's about setting boundaries. And I think again, because of the journey that I've been on, I'm not afraid to kind of be like, yeah, thank you for being part of this journey. But at the end of the day, don't make it about you. But yeah, again, this like dialogue back and forth between me and non-Indigenous people, or our community and non-Indigenous people, where finding a balance and just working with everyone's egos and kind of trying to find a nice compromise, which I think sounds easy when you say it like that, but it is hard when there's all these different people. So that was, that was one of the times where I kind of I don't know. I was a little bit torn about, you know, what to do and whatever.

Josh: Well, it's beyond race too, because it's an entitlement. Like, it reminds me of people in school who I rarely talk to, ask like DM. One of the reasons I got rid of Facebook was because the amount of people asking which MacBook Pro they should buy because I had a tech blog once, right? Like, people are—

Tommy: I'm pretty sure I've sent him that.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. I'll help you now because you've been— But yeah, it is. It is interesting, the idea of picking fights. And also there's a great book by Jon Ronson called So You've Been Publicly Shamed, which is all about when sort of the— when it switches over from being that productive to that mob mentality of the exact same thing.

Marlee: Yeah.

Josh: How do you talk to young people who are where you were when you were young and angry?

Marlee: Yeah.

Josh: Is it about saying, looking at it from another perspective, or do they need to experience that?

Marlee: I think when it's been like an individual, like one-on-one situation, which I've luckily been able to be in with some young people who are very angry, um, I kind of open it up to them, be like, yeah, tell me why you're angry, and like have this angry moment with me now so then we can, um, move past it and do that healing and then figure out how to express it, you know, better so you aren't getting kicked out of class in school and you aren't facing those, um, the negative things that come out of it. And when, um, these individuals have an opportunity to express themselves like that and then like talk it through, that's— I find that they can, they build a lot of resilience that way. So I mean, for people who are going through that too I don't know, maybe there is a certain level of you need to experience that, or if you have it, like, feel it and own it. And, um, but don't hold on to it forever and don't let it turn you bitter, because then that hatred that you get spewed at you wins. Because if it turns you into someone who's bitter, then you hold yourself back and then you can't grow and, um, be better and do better for yourself.

Josh: It's also interesting, like, I guess what we're talking about is these massive cultural shifts of people and Like, I even think about Australia Day and I think about like the, the, the flag and the emotion, the emotive response I have of it now, or the cringe versus when I was a kid at the party with the cups and all that sort of thing. Do you think that in a culture of everyone wants everything now, everyone wants to be woke now, everyone wants to be the one that's saying, you know, I've got all the answers. Does it actually, like, do we need to take small incremental steps or are there actual radical shifts that will get us there?

Marlee: It's a balance of both. I think that in doing something like changing the date of Australia Day, that, you know, is a, is a one step. It might seem like something radical, but really it's one step. And then what comes after it is the incremental changes around redefining the Australian identity. That's ultimately what the argument is about. Because that's something that isn't very clear to a lot of people, and that's why people get caught up in the— like, even my mum, and my mum says that growing up, that Australia Day wasn't a piss-up. Like, people didn't get drunk the way that they do now and like make it this big party. She was like, it was never like that. Um, so I think we, you know, a lot of people have like misconstrued what it's meant to be about, which plays into like the toxicity of the day. And makes for really awful kind of outcomes. And I think that if that was changed, in order for it to be a success, and we would have to make sure that the date it was changed to didn't become exactly the same as what it is now. And it would, it has to be about redefining like, what does it mean to be Australian? What are our values? Like, you know, we are such a diverse community. How do we come up with something that's universal that we can all buy into?

Tommy: How much shift is there in schools, especially the primary school age, of what education is and what's being taught around what's happened?

Marlee: Ah, well, I think it's a little bit different everywhere. Um, I don't know exactly like what the curriculum looks like. I only know of like, um, the University of New South Wales a few years ago got, um, quite a bit of publicity when they started teaching they're teaching students to say invasion rather than colonisation and to be, yeah, a little bit more honest about the beginning of what we know as Australia today. So that's interesting. I think that it's almost, yeah, the changes in universities are where a lot of that can be cemented. I went to UTS and they have an incredible Aboriginal unit, and they're actually building the first Indigenous residential college, which would be amazing. And they've embedded Aboriginal knowledges and practises into every single one of their subjects. So it's what guides everything, regardless of what you're studying, regardless of what the topic is. It's— yeah, so, so that's really interesting as well. And I imagine that that's probably going to produce some teachers who have different perspectives too. But yeah, as far as I know from working with some kids in high school and stuff, it's still like Aboriginal history is 1 or 2 periods in Year 8. Yeah. Unless you do Aboriginal studies.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, the young people of today will be the teachers of the future. So I think it's that in terms of it changing and it might not change from a curricular level, but it from a human level, the people going into those jobs, that's changed and that's what we need. And so that's what inspires change too.

Marlee: Yeah.

Josh: You're one of those people, winter, you were in Europe.

Tommy: She lives in Sydney, mate. There's not much winter up there. You're lucky.

Josh: Very lucky. It's cold in Melbourne. So you're having a great time in Europe. When you're travelling around and seeing other countries and how they experience history and culture. What do you, what do you take away from all of that?

Marlee: I've been really lucky. I've travelled so much throughout my life because my mum works for Qantas. Yes, staff travel.

Josh: Oh, so there's another novelty.

Marlee: Yeah.

Josh: How many, like, is she still working there?

Marlee: She's worked there for 30 years.

Tommy: Really?

Marlee: Daddy cop? Yep.

Tommy: That's a good double whammy.

Marlee: Yeah, it was his 25-year anniversary 2 days ago.

Tommy: Wow, congrats.

Josh: That's amazing. And so when you're a kid, like the— on the Qantas thing, not to make it all about that, but so was she— yeah, what did she do at Qantas?

Marlee: Uh, she's moved around heaps. Yeah. Um, oh God, I couldn't even list all the things she does, but now she is working in the freight bit, so she's in the office and making sure— oh no, I won't raise that, but she's got some really scary storeys about, um, sending dogs on planes. So if I can tell anyone anything, never send your dog on a plane.

Josh: Really?

Marlee: It's terrifying.

Josh: Well, Virgin's doing their whole, like, you get frequent flyer points now when you send your dog. Like, I'm thinking about getting a dog just so I can get status.

Tommy: Please don't. Please don't. AirJet, there's like a dog businesses to send pets.

Josh: United killed a dog the other, the other flight.

Marlee: No, like, can we?

Tommy: Yeah.

Marlee: That if that's the number one takeaway from this, please just don't do it. I will tell you some storeys offline because you people don't need to hear it. Yeah. But no, it's like really awful.

Tommy: Dog stays home, alright?

Josh: Dog stays home.

Marlee: Drive your dog if you have to go anywhere.

Josh: Well, there's a story, you know, the Hamish and Andy's True Story show, they did one where a guy was working at the freight type of thing, like for the animals. They— the dog got to the location and the guy looked, it was dead. So he found an old dog, like a dog that looked exactly the same. Swapped it. The thing was, the dog was actually dead already. So the owner rocked up It's a dog. It's a dead dog. And it's alive.

Tommy: And it's alive.

Marlee: It's got back to life.

Tommy: Oh, that was crazy story.

Josh: But anyway, back to the Europe thing, because I find it interesting, like going to New Zealand specifically, it seems like the relationship with the indigenous people, like they've got it tapped, like dialled in a bit.

Marlee: Oh my God. A bit more. There's so much. I mean, sometimes I feel like they're just a better country. Look at their prime minister. Yeah. Yeah, no, so we've travelled heaps. I've seen, you know, I've been really lucky to experience a lot of different cultures all over the world, um, and also connect with other First Nations people. I did a summer programme at Stanford University, um, in 2016 and met some Native American people for the first time, and their storeys are so similar to ours, which is quite, you know, it's nice because I see, I see ways that we can work together, but also heartbreaking because the kind of context in America is like there's so many oppressed minority groups that you're kind of all fighting for attention. But being able to do that and being able to experience cultures that way in Europe, I found myself, you know, we were in Rome and at the Colosseum and things, and Mum made a comment like, oh, look how old it is and stuff. And I said, mate, you're joking, right? You're joking. Like, the answer, oh, that's cute. Like, 1,000 years old, cute. Okay, give me, you know, 60,000. Let's go to Brewarrina, the fish traps, 40,000 years old, oldest lit surviving man-made thing in the world, right? So that's how I kind of look at those sorts of things. But I do find it interesting, yeah, particularly in Europe, I think there's, you know, people stand there in front of these things in awe and they're like amazing and everything, and they are, but I think they're perceived as amazing by so many people because it's still a Western idea of what success is. It's these big buildings. It's a society that looks like the beginnings of the one that we know today. So I find that it's made me, I mean, being able to travel my whole life has been amazing, and I'm so thankful for it because I think it's also played into who I am and how I understand other people and kind of also situating yourself in the world and kind of sometimes how, sometimes it's made you go, oh, I'm insignificant. Ant on a speck on a speck, right? But also knowing that, you know, some of the big problems we see are— they feel a little bit smaller sometimes, and that's really nice. But yeah, I mean, I love travel so much, and probably one of the best trips I had was last year. I went to South America and did the Inca Trail, and that was amazing. You know, our guide was an indigenous man, and he kind of told us all the storeys and things like that, and Again, when you have your own culture and your own storeys that you appreciate and things like that, the way that you empathise and connect with people overseas is different, I think. And yeah, it's beautiful. And yeah, I think it's definitely shaped who I am too.

Tommy: It can change your perspective, take you out your bubble.

Marlee: Yeah.

Tommy: Do you think tourism is good for awareness or education, or is there a missing piece? Because I, you know, I've stood in the the cathedral in Rome and like, you know, I'm just at awe of visually and hearing some things. But, you know, take the huge rock in the middle of Australia and what's happening there and tourism, you know, it thrives and that's how it helps people. Do you think it helps the awareness in the right way?

Marlee: I think that tourism industries across the world have the same problem. So Rome is a prime example. The Vatican, amazing kind of structures and everything, but on the outskirts of it, um, there's plenty of homeless people and you kind of go, what, you're a church, like, isn't that your job to look after all of God's people? You know, if that's your thing.

Tommy: No, no, €70 to get in.

Marlee: Yeah, exactly. But that's exactly the point, right? There's all these contradictions. So again, you want to go to, um, the central part of Australia, see this phenomenon that is Uluru, and you recognise it as a spiritually significant place for Aboriginal people. But then the contradiction is you go and pay to climb it when it is completely inappropriate and so offensive to all Aboriginal Australians. So I think it exists everywhere. And I think that responsible tourism is probably something that needs to be focused on.

Tommy: And I mean, when they're looking at the bottom line, when they're looking at the dollars that they can make.

Marlee: Yeah.

Tommy: That's hard.

Marlee: There is a growing Indigenous tourism industry which owned and run by Aboriginal people, which I think is amazing. And I think another thing about kind of, I often say that an international person and a lot of just regular Australians perspective of what Aboriginal people are and where they live in that is kind of the Tourism Australia pitch. In the Red Desert, they all look a lot darker than me, um, and kind of live quite traditionally, right? Which just isn't the case. The highest population of Aboriginal people in the country is in Western Sydney, right? That's the highest concentration. Lots of people don't know that. Um, so people's perception of where Aboriginal Australia is, that it's really remote, it's really far away from the average person, is something that needs to be dispelled. And I think a part of that is, so we are seeing, you know, our voices rise in Australia, but there needs to come a point when we kind of get to that international level as well, which seems far away in some cases.

Josh: Feels like we have such a long way to go. Yeah, I think. In regards to like locally.

Marlee: Yeah, but then you think of someone like Patty Mills, the basketballer, and he has just like, just got married, has been here with the Boomers. And instead of having a honeymoon, he went out to a town called Oodnadatta in South Australia and like did this and worked with like all the kids and stuff and like gave them heaps of stuff and travelled around a few different remote communities and all documented on his social media. So he's bringing storeys of remote Australia to an international stage because he plays in the US. So I, as much as it does feel like we have, we do have a lot There's no doubt actually that we have a lot of work to do in this country. What happens is when we do have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people given the same opportunities as other Australians in education, in employment, in everything, what we see is not them meeting the average kind of standard. They exceed it. That's what happens. It's been shown in a lot of um, like, I, yeah, I used to work for an education program, and what we'd find is when kids were mentored through their schooling and told that they could do more than what was expected of them from their schools, a lot of the time they didn't just get average marks, they got the best marks in their class. So there's so much opportunity there. I think that if we continue to build up, um, you know, better understanding and, yeah, more opportunity for everyone, you'll just see us kind of like rise up and take over.

Josh: And, uh, you get asked a lot of questions, a lot of them probably coming from people who have no idea. What is— what's the one question that you get the most? What are people constantly asking you?

Marlee: Um, oh, I mean, a lot of people are asking how to help. Um, With Tiddas for Tiddas, a lot of people ask how to help, and the answer to that now is spreading the word and being a part of it and learning. I think the biggest thing that non-Indigenous Australia can do is sit back and listen, and listen to learn, not listen to respond. Because I think a lot of the time people want to sit and listen to storeys so they can talk about their perspective or their opinion on things, when it should just be, I'll listen to this, I'll learn, I'll take it on, and I'll grow as a person.

Josh: So, I mean, the great thing about things like podcasting is it is spreading the word, or it's like, it's in a startup word, it's that scalable thing, right? It's scaling you so that people get— it's like, oh, well, you can just listen to that. Are there any resources or technology that's come about in the past few years around this space?

Marlee: Around like—

Josh: I mean, sort of Indigenous education?

Marlee: Yeah.

Josh: Like, because I guess just Googling it. Like, there's a, um, there's a great site, I think it's called justgoogleit.com, and you can put in, uh, the question that they ask and it will spit out an animation of a cursor going and typing it in and pressing Google. So then it's sort of a passive-aggressive way of telling people to Google it, which is great.

Marlee: But also, there are definitely—

Josh: Google's a bit fucked. Like, Google, there's a bit of like— there's bad information. Like, when I was, uh, in— when I was like 15 years old, We went to Central Australia for a school camp, and the— what we were told around things is just so different to the actual reality. So that was a time where it was like, oh, you know, Aboriginal people are, you know, like they're looking after all the tourism stuff. So climbing Uluru, it's like, you know, they've got it all, like it's their business and blah, blah, blah. And there's a few. And at that point in like 2006, from me being in a coach in a bus, you know, being educated on this sort of stuff, it's so easy to see how misinformation around this stuff can happen.

Marlee: So like a great place to start is with resources that are authored by Aboriginal people. There's plenty of— a great book that I couldn't recommend more is Dark Emu by Bruce Pascoe. It's just incredible in the way that it dispels so many myths about how our society operated prior to the British arriving. And it also helps people unlearn that we were this kind of unsophisticated, unintelligent society. We actually had some of the most sophisticated systems, means of agriculture and everything. It's, it's really incredible. So books like that, I will plug a book that I'm in called Growing Up Aboriginal in Australia, which has been edited by Anita Heiss, and it's a collection of short storeys of which I wrote one. And yeah, a whole plethora of different Aboriginal people. The youngest writer was 15, the oldest was in their 70s, and one person wrote from jail. Like it does a pretty good job at painting how diverse our experiences are. So, so starting with that sort of stuff and just, yeah, being hungry for it and going to local events. If you see something particularly around January 26th, NAIDOC Week, Reconciliation Week, when you see those events, go and be a part of them. Listen, start conversations with people because that's kind of the time of year when we're ready to kind of talk about a lot of stuff, um, and also interact with Aboriginal businesses. Yeah, um, that's, that's a really great thing to do as well.

Josh: I think social media also, there's such an opportunity of like who you follow and who you're consuming. Yeah, and I think that's like, I think a great starting point is just going on to, you know, Tiddas for Tiddas and following and just like, yeah, engaging.

Marlee: There's so many people that we share that you'll you know, want to follow them. Yeah, a lot of artists, a lot of people who are doing like crazy stuff that you just wouldn't even think exists. Um, so yeah, like I guess we are kind of a starting point for a lot of things. Um, lots of discussions and lots of events that happen that people don't know about. So yeah, awesome.

Tommy: You've got a great podcast. Yeah, it's, it's amazing.

Marlee: Likewise.

Tommy: I think like the— what you're talking about, these other resources It is a resource.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I'm listening to it thinking, fuck, I didn't know this shit.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I feel really uncomfortable. And that's the good thing, right?

Marlee: It's like, it's okay to feel uncomfortable about this stuff because it doesn't make you a bad person.

Tommy: Yeah.

Marlee: It makes you someone who wants to be better.

Tommy: Well, I think people try and get away from discomfort and it's probably not— it's not where the change lives.

Josh: Yeah. And it's about what we consume as well, right? Like, it's so— I think about like Tommy and I will go to an event and then for the next 2 weeks we're talking about it and all that sort of thing. So there's slight shifts in what can we do?

Marlee: Well, like, you can go listen to a podcast and also be like conscious of the mainstream media that you consume as well, because there's a lot of mainstream media that doesn't do a good job of representing anyone. Yeah, you know, so just be conscious of that stuff as well.

Josh: Awesome. Well, congratulations with everything you've built. It's like awesome seeing the start of this journey. It feels like it's just the beginning. So we should— would love to have you back on sometime soon.

Marlee: Thank you. Maybe I'll be too famous.

Josh: Yeah, you'll have bodyguards. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email. If you've enjoyed the show, take a screen grab, take a photo if you're somewhere exotic or tropical or somewhere other than cold Melbourne. And otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow.

Tommy: See you guys.

Marlee: See ya.