- August 16, 2019
Zoë Foster Blake – Founder of Go-To and Break-Up Boss, Australian beauty editor, and one of Australia’s favourite authors!
She has combined her vision of accessible and easy skincare and makeup with considered branding and industry leading copy.
After taking off in the Australian market as a direct to consumer e-commerce business, Go-To announced that they were expanding into the US with beauty giant, Sephora.
This year, they’ve expanded their reach into retail with a strong relationship with MECCA in Australia.
Amongst Zoë’s massive business achievements, she’s also had a huge amount of success as an author, with her book, The Wrong Girl, having been adapted into a television drama.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we discuss:
– Our Fat Fridays order
– Founding and expanding Go-To skincare
– Zoë’s relationship with social media
– Creating a business through Instagram
– Cold sore remedies
– Deadlines and over delivering
– Having and committing to simple routines
– Earning the ask
– Branding and tone
Zoë on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zotheysay
Zoë’s website: http://www.zotheysay.com
Go-To Skincare: https://gotoskincare.com/
Break-Up Boss: http://www.breakupboss.com.au/
Small Giants by Bo Burlingham: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100467.Small_Giants
Three Women by Lisa Taddeo: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42201100-three-women
Watch and listen to this episode of the The Daily Talk Show at https://thedailytalkshow.com/426
Email us: email@example.com
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
It's a daily Talk Show Episode 426. It's fat Friday and we have Zoe foster Blake in the studio. Welcome, welcome.
we've, we've brought out a bit of a spread Friday's for us is where we just get to let loose. Sometimes it bleeds into the weekend which is most weekend. You know when you just start something and you just don't stop. This is it just quickly running through the fat Friday spread these cookies here. My wife baked them for us last night so sweet peanut butter chocolate chip cookies and tried them. Clear. I mean, I'm in the doghouse because I made the fridge stinky yesterday. So you said you had the cookies. I went out for coffee this morning. I've already ate one. I can't complain.
Well, Lisa, what do you think of the smell of incense to like incense?
It's okay. Depends how much I think the main thing has such a waft is ok,
as it got a triggering memory for you.
And my mom still bands it.
Yeah, she sent it to me. Yeah. So Tommy's mom gave us this 40 year old in sentence. Okay. And because I've got like everything in life, I've got no portion control. So I tried like 16 at a time and see how much we can get around. That's too much. And so, Mr. 97, and you're getting used to nicknames a reason why he's Mr. 97. Can you
guess? I don't want to say
okay, well, he got him. And now he got a 97 enter score. Mate.
Was it more relating to his age buddy, Franklin? No. He's, oh, yeah. Well, I actually most people think it is because he's on the night. So it's actually quite close to the, to the age, right. And the other part of our spread, basil. What we found with fat Fridays is we just said we get sent food young basil to message me and said, Man, I've got these things. I need you guys to have them for Friday's. Okay, along those lines, and then brought agent, yes. Box brownies. This is a Melbourne company that they make these amazing, amazing brownies. And of course another amazing company. I target very familiar big fan. So feel free to grab or not to grab. So
you. You saw a movie last night? It's the Is it the Quentin Tarantino one? Of course? Yes. And they go for like extremely long period of time. Yeah,
it was really long. And I haven't actually gone. I must say that maybe on the day it comes out for a while. But the whole scene was packed. I also haven't seen that for a while.
To be honest. I thought it came out months ago because they did the US press release. And there was all these promos. Yeah, I just saw it came out last week or something
today. yesterday. Yesterday. Yeah.
Yeah. And so so you are the founder of go to skincare, you do the you're the chief creative officer. It's the PR stuff that you do in regards to like, I find that you're in one week, you'll be everywhere. And I feel like that would be extremely exhausting in regards, like, say a book coming out? Or is that like a strict strategy G to actually just bulk at all?
Oh, well, I pretty much my policies only do press if you've got something out. Because there are opportunities to do press the whole year. And if you interested in, I think you've got to preserve goodwill with the people that care about what you're doing. So yeah, I do blocks and its product launch based on knowledge base. And then I go under, yeah, and I hide and I do work again.
So what's the what's the work in the height of your writing, obviously, but
actually not writing it currently, I'm really, like go to needs me at the moment. So we're doing got a big thing coming out very soon. And it's a big growing company. And there are a lot of I'm in charge of all new product development and marketing. And so always things to do. And we were in the US now. So that's a big beast as well. Yeah, I mean, from the outside. It's a fun brand. Is it fun on the inside? I know you is it is your baby. I will I worry about that. Because I still feel very much like it's fun in front of me. But I hope that that flows through today, employees. And because our office and our warehouse is in Sydney and I'm in Melbourne, I do feel a bit disconnected, but I'm obviously in touch with my staff every day and and I have the managers in there that look after the culture and the people but I really do hope that they themselves
do have a certain certain signs that you know, the company is doing well, from a cultural point of view of X y&z that's happening.
Um, I think it's a very pertinent question at this time, because we've just grown a lot in a small amount of time. And there's that saying that when you scale, you go stale, and you lose your culture and your mojo and I actually read small giants on your recommendation to Amish. And it's an excellent book about companies, small companies, and they don't even have to stay small, but just retaining that culture and Mojo, which is the spark, and it's that thing that people go, I'm interested in this company, and I want to work with this company, or I want to know what they're doing. And they keep an eye on you, because you're doing stuff that's fun and exciting. So my job really as fan as well as trying to keep the new products coming out and all that other stuff is to make sure that people that were within the company feel proud. And they feel like they're successful, because they're doing a good job for a good
company. And we've talked about and this week, I think we've had like a lot of we went to Gary Vee and this guy, great. Man. Interesting. It's refreshing to hear a different take on things, but it's very American. Yeah, you know what I mean? So they very big, big thing I took away from it, that thinking be there's nothing wrong with that. When when you have a small business, and I've had multiple, and they still small, we just called our company, big media companies. But I think this sort of that mentality of staying small, because you could go, you know, the thought around, if we get bigger, we lose the the personal touch. But if it becomes successful, if it resonates with an audience, it will become bigger. So it's a really, it's a hard one. I remember Josh, when you were the when you were young, you didn't want to enter much money because you didn't want have to patch it.
Yeah, I don't know. 18 K a year ago saying any
do a track? Do we trap ourselves with this thinking now that you've got something that has become big? Have you What's the shift for you? personally? I'm
sorry, just to really define what question you're
thinking big. Have you have you seen a shift in what you classify as thinking big and what you can actually achieve?
Well, I am not a big thinker by nature, and I don't do plans and forecasts and three and five year plans. And I think that's probably considered a shitty way to do business. But I don't think you can change how you're wired. And so for all my life, whenever they like, What's your plan? What do you say? So I can answer that? And my honest answer is, I really believe if you doing good work today, and this week, and this hour, and if you send an email that is excellent. And if you if you do a presentation, that's really good, and you put everything into it, and you just work on that press, press release, and make sure that that's perfect, or that, that products as best as it can be, that other shit will take care of itself. So it's a tricky one to be because as the family you meant to drive the vision, and you meant to make sure that the company is going in the right direction. And I hope that I'm doing that instinctively. Because I'm focusing on the now and just doing good work. And that that will flow on because I think that that's how it will take care of itself. But if you said to me, where do you want go to be in five years? I have no idea. Yeah. And I and I, and I kind of like that. Because even I reckon even if you plan it, you can't plan? Yeah,
we can bring it down to some, you know, I want it to be a great culture and fans are these are like, value set? Yeah.
It's not necessarily destination set new destination, is it conducive to getting investment? or things like that? Or do you have to reframe those other business conversations? If you maybe success doesn't look like being super, super big?
Well, we're not looking for investors actually. And I think that's a, that's not a pop, maybe a popular thing that a lot of people are doing, because I think particularly in the American market, that's what people want right away. When looking for investors, so we were small and private, and we can still act, you know, internally and do what we need to do. And, and I like that I like having that control. So we're not beholden to anyone in that sense. Yeah. So what how we choose to grow. And what we chose to do is that there's a lot of guesswork for us. But we've now got, we're bringing in people that are very experienced and helping us because I believe in outsourcing the skill sets, you know, going out to people who
are very good at it. Yeah, I guess on the other side of the train tracks, you got Jools Holland, with investors, and, you know, he has to tell him where he's getting, which I would feel a huge pressure stress. Yeah, that's, you know, and it's not where I'm going.
Today, like stakeholders, even if you don't have investors, you still have stakeholders, I guess, what was the conversation with? Like, you've had some great success going into the US and getting into support and things like that? What did you What did you learn in that experience, about how you communicate?
Well, when we when, when we made the decision to go into for in the States, I had a five day old baby, and we're still in hospital, and MIMO came through from my Managing Director at the time. And he was like, I know, I'm not meant to be emailing you. But I think he can want to know this one. And, to me so far in the States was always like a pie in the sky like it was you'd made it. On reflection now, like saying how hard the American market is, and what a small company we are, you know, we probably should have thought that through a bit more. And before you go into a huge market, like the US have a bit more of a plan. We now we have that plan. And we're doing that we're executing that. But when it came to maker in Australia, that was a no brainer. And that had a lot more thought around it. And strategic
planning. Did they split like Sephora, like I've had friends who have sold products, like they've been tech products, and they've gone into the big box chain sort of stores in the US. And they get squeezed so much on the margins, they get to a point where it's like, actually, we're not making that much money in here. Yeah, that part of the thought,
certainly the marketing value of and the storey is really important. And I think, whatever happens to us in the US, and however, that ends up, I still believe that being seen in the US was a big deal for us, and the value of that storey for us back in at home, but also for us to get that initial press. And that storey for the press over there was really valuable because the four is like an tipa that you made it they want you. So we working really hard to support now to make sure that we can deliver what they need. And we're going to
do this what does that mean? What does that actually look like?
Well, look, it's a really long conversation. And it's it's something that I think, perhaps we were so we're so we're doing well in Australia, and we loved and we have a profile here and I have a profile here. But of course, we want nothing over there. And I sort of love that challenge because it means that people should be skincare at face value. It wasn't like, Oh, so we made something. It was like, what's this page stuff? Talk me through it. So I relish the challenge of that. But it's a huge market. So many people, many people in so many skincare companies doing brilliant, brilliant stuff. And because I'm based here, so long storey short, we're going to get a lot busier over there, and, and we have some other new things coming out that I think will really help
differentiate us exciting. So I'm the American market. I mean, US learning from these Americans on Monday. Is this something that you've learned from that experience dealing with American business different?
Yeah, well, it's different. It's different even in terms of marketing, and how we, how we operate in Australia. And in terms of like, you know, no, influencing policy, for example, can't do that in America, you have to change. So what does that mean? What's that no influence. We just don't pay influences to talk about go to here. And we're lucky enough that we don't need to Yeah, but in America, it's a different business model. And you know, there's just not much organic happening over there. So you have to be paid. And And that for me, is that person going? No, but I believe the product is good enough that we shouldn't have to pay people to talk about it. Yeah, by. So you just have to realign things for each month it and I like learning all of this stuff. I think it's important. And it gives you a more holistic approach to business and will even help us back here as well. We set a rule early days,
like, you know, before.
Yeah, well, I mean, we launched in 2014. And Instagram was still sort of not really nowhere near where it was. Now. We haven't have cute packaging and cute copy. And that sort of did a lot of the heavy lifting for us. But people liked the product, and I want to talk about it. So that that's just worked really well for us. We've been lucky enough to get the word of mouth. Yeah, that's what you want, right? Yeah. And we value that and we value the customer, the hundred followers because she's dedicated and loyal to the product and really liked it and speaks about it so beautifully and wholeheartedly. We'd rather we'd like to live with her and talking because it's honest, and and powerful. So
So when an econ first business, you're on an econ first business, what do you get out of having partnerships and relationships with big companies like Mecca? Yeah, amazing.
So the rich and abroad.
I mean, we we were doing, we're having a great time just doing DDC for go to for five years, we always knew we'd go into retail or bricks and mortar, and make it with obvious choice. We love the way the head to align with what we do, which is education. First, we want women to feel confident in university using skincare. And mega do an excellent job of that their staff are fantastic at educating women, you're going there. But for us, it was just going well, people who know about go to know how to find us. But we want to get to that next level where people who've never heard of us can find us. So we have a really amazing, hardcore, beautiful, loyal following of go to followers. And they will always be there. But we wanted to show other people about the brand and make it with a beautiful vessel for that.
And when you're doing those sort of deals, how much of that is you leading it versus people within your business? Yeah,
no, I mean, we do those prelims where I'm like, I make the call and go I this is the right one for us. And I'm I believe in the company. And I really liked maker and Joe and have for a long time. It was just about timing also. And so yeah, then I hand it over to the contract people. Yeah.
What did you want to do? When What do you want to be when you're growing up?
a copywriter, and which is a weird thing for a girl in a very rural area in New South Wales, but I just had this idea of wanting to write advertising copy, and then did a terrible stint of work experience and put a hat on that night that's not and then I just knew that I liked writing and I just didn't really even care where so once I finished uni, I just applied for like a fishing magazine at golf magazine, raft magazine. Whatever would take me I didn't even really understand what the roles were like, what is the submitted? I'll apply
what was the work experience like? And
well, it was it was it was just it was underwhelming in one word I did. I did some time at Novotel because I thought I might want to work in hospitality management. I ended up cleaning spoons for a week. polishing sorry, was
no I put veneer on them. So they don't like Stein.
It's actually Bennett. Tommy doesn't realise the amount of tension the whole vinegar thing has because he left probably like it looked like a four week old meal if fringe which had completely gone disgusting. And it was it was basically stinking out the whole office. So Mr. 97 radio and I last night we're trying to make because it requires three adults to that. Yeah. And so anyway, we'll fighting over whether you use vinegar or by camp soda. I think it's well either, but we ended up going with a biker. Yeah. So you're claiming experience
claim explains and then I worked with a modelling agency. And I have no idea. Why don't I still don't know. I might I think they also managed artists and my father is an author and they managed him and and so I just sat there for a week looking at beautiful women coming in and go. I did I think I would be one of them. What Why am I here was because I found it glamorous. Anyway, I didn't end up working women's magazines, there was something about riding, swimming that fit together. But I went to kids mags and music mags and so on before I got there.
I see like all those steps, right even, you know, working working at the Novotel into the next they're all like these, we falling over into the next part of our journey.
I did your proper internship when I was at uni, though, in a magazine at a publishing house. And that was probably useful, actually useful because I was a proper intern doing copy and writing and so on.
So when we're younger, we probably have more. I mean, we're probably open to making more of those fumbles and stumbles along the way, when you're getting to finding your thing and your family. You've written your first book, and then you starting go to does it feel like you You lose that ability to be able to go, Oh, I'm going to now go over there. Because when you've got not much happening, you can't, you can go anyway. Yeah, when you have more going on?
I don't care what the project is. Because it's hard because people go hang on, what do you do? Like sometimes when I do press, they're like, and what are you here for? What have you done? Like, what what field are you in because I write about relationships or beauty and I make products and so on and good stuff. But I don't think you should not box yourself in at all. If there's a project that excites you do it. And so like even with the wrong girl doing some TV writing, and so on, it was really just an amazing avenue to be able to dip my toe into that and see if I wanted to be writing in the most obviously privileged way, which is it was your book, and there's a room full of incredible writers to sort of help you and play with you. And they did all the work. I just sat there. But you know, I think the the project can be anything, I think you should always try new things and never just go on justice. So
I love that. Because it's the opposite of Stein your line, right? Because I think a lot of it,
but I think you need to know what your superpower is that goes through everything feeds through all of those things. So mine is a free
line, right? thing.
And I honestly use projects like I think as I still wanted to be a copywriter. So I think I use projects just to write copy. I actually think I might go to just to write the copy. Yeah,
I mean, that's your Instagram account, right? It's like the Playboy magazines people rated for the caption is not cover photo. It
was a social media. We didn't have photo.
It's called Twitter.
Yeah. Why is Twitter so fact?
It's angry, isn't it? I'm not really on there anymore. Yeah.
I think is it was it's something that links out to a bunch of stuff. So it's got this element of everyone, I guess needs to have an opinion on their, your relationship with social media. How do you keep it being this something that is positive? versus I mean, I retired for social media for six months, because I was like, it was meant to be forever.
back with a vengeance.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But, uh, yeah, man, what is your relationship with social media?
Um, I have chosen to view it as positive and is chiefly work based. I think the like, I feel like there's some trick we don't know about. Because Instagram just seems like as someone who's creating things and asking people to spend money on them, having it a billboard, like that is ridiculous. And it's free. Yeah. And I just get to talk to people engage with them and write stuff and play with them and talk, you know, it recommend things you know, and have that digital back fence that I really craved, which is why I started blogging in 2006, just to have that dialogue. So I I choose to view it as something that is purposeful and useful for me. I don't I do put up photos of my life and my my family and my holidays and my work but it all that's who I am. Yes, you know. So but I, I like Instagram. Yeah, I I'm very limited on my time on it. Now I delete the app and dive back in a couple of times a day, because I just found out spending too much time just mindlessly scrolling and not paying attention to any of it was. So do you have the app anymore?
you downloaded it?
I'd have to re download it. So that's a big process. So yeah, it's annoying. So you're still a Bitly annoying? Okay. Yeah, like that.
I guess you work these things out, right. Because I think the conversation we've had with a lot of people is about their relationship with things like social media, and some just have a non complicated one. Yes. I'm ever really complicated one. Yeah. And then you got to put in the boundary. Yeah. I mean, for you, Josh, coming back from the retirement. I mean, you've gone full throttle, the foot is on the floor, you're getting a bit
I asked, like was on my phone last night, what my screen time was, which was, I guess, I know, probably a reflection of how much time I'm spending on it. But ya know, it seems though it is interesting, because I think we're all different as well. I mean, this is the advice culture that we're in. At the moment. It's like your next actually, the opposite is normally true. Like our friend Gemma watts, like she's she spends heaps of time on Instagram. She like, doesn't Yeah, it doesn't bother me at all.
And that is 100% her job? Yeah. Like, that's how I learned about Gemma is his Instagram. Yeah. And that's how I find people. And it's, I clearly had a problem because I've had to delete Yeah,
well, that's it and like I look at, I was literally saying this to Tommy, so that might look at how happy Sarah Holloway is. And look how much he posts on Instagram. Surely I can post that matter and still be happy.
Like, there's a lot of once a week
yeah, and so there's there's the spectrum, right you can do I guess there's there's an assumption that if posting too much can be bad for you. But there's heaps of great examples of people who are super fulfilled super happy serving their audience.
So if you're on it, and I I treat storeys and enrol posters, very different base. So I do real real posts and the money is there, you know, more rare and sort of think about those ones a bit more and make sure that the photo is nice. But I am a huge proponent of recommending stuff. And if I find something that I like, I want to tell people about it and storeys is a wonderful platform. Yeah, I'm not telling storeys like I think some people are brilliant actually doing a bit of a narrative like I did this today. And he's Oh my God. Now this is happening. These are really good content producers. Don't look for that for me, just blow me I've made a playlist Why don't you listen to it? I read this book, or these TV shows amazing. Or have you eaten here? And
you know that word of mouth, right? Yeah.
Because I wish people would just fucking tell me that shit. Especially when I was pregnant. I didn't know anything. And I was craving that stuff. And and then when I fell pregnant, I had problems. And so and I'm just like, just do this. This is the primary need. Yeah. Don't worry about the other ones. You just you just want someone to tell you and and you know, working magazines for so long, you get used to being the editor for people. And I like being the editor for people if it can save them time and money.
Is that your pushback on the no paid influencer stuff? Do you think that your personal relationship with recommendations, a push back,
I don't really have a push back? I just do it. I've just, I think that again, going back to I started blogging, because I was writing for magazines, and I was getting four pages per month in a huge magazine to write about beauty. And it wasn't enough because I was just thrilled with beauty and wanting to write about it endlessly. So I just took it offline, took it private and started writing about it because I was like, This is red lipstick that you need. Do you ever know? And and just going on these huge rants about just one product? And and this was I mean, paid nothing. Nothing was paid. You know, back then it was it just didn't exist. But now I have a business. That's where my income comes from. Yeah. So I don't have the luxury of not needing to ask people for money. That
was that. Was that fork in the road, though? Like earlier in the guess where, with where the daily talk shows that we're trying to work out? How do we monetize? Like, how do we just make a living? How do we survive while doing what we do?
right ways to do it. And I think people just want you to be honest. That would be my main thing. Make your money like that, to me that like that. There's a huge feminist part of girls making money from putting makeup on in their bedrooms. I love that. Yeah, right. Do it. And it's, it's however you want to roll making a business out of Instagram. I love this. This is wonderful. So do it. And I just think it's about being honest and and and never ever taking your audience for granted. I respect my audience. And I always keep them aware of what I'm doing. Because I realised that you only have fun at Goodwill points. Oh, definitely. And so for me, I'm already telling them to buy book by and by these like, that's enough.
Do you think that during your I guess we have to make mistakes, but we go through when we push and pull, push and pull and work out what
and you can evolve changes all the time. Like I might change my mind about this in a year's time. And and I think you know, when you look at like, for me, it's newsletters, I think I love good newsletters, because I've opted in and the content is useful. And I really enjoyed that. And that brought it into my world. I like it. And I think they're really clever ways to monetize. And you can just be really honest about it. Like this is painful.
Yeah. opportunities in life. So you could look at Instagram as an opportunity. You can look at writing or making videos as opportunities to take you take you on what at what, but what about what's it been for you when it comes to creating opportunities in the early days?
Um, do you create opportunities? Or is it like that intersection of hard work and luck? Yeah,
well, I mean, if you believe in luck, I believe in luck. But it doesn't even the harder you work, the luckier you get. Yeah. And Kevin, I, Jules lon, they used to say that to me, and I get it, I've taken an opportunity. So it's an opportunity to use a platform like YouTube to make videos and then it then it gathers that momentum, what what were the opportunities that you took up?
Well, I found an audience like because I had the thing about magazines back in 2000 453, whatever it is that you it was one way traffic. So you will run and you had no idea. Even caring, listening, what was resonating, again, why I started a blog because I wanted to know what was heating and I wanted to talk to people. And I liked the you know, there was no editor you can write forever. So I think before I was even aware of it, I was finding an audience back then that audience which was was really instrumental in the rest of my career, because I was one of those early adopters. And I think the early adopters had that huge privilege of just being first didn't mean more better by any means. We just happened to be first at that time in Australia, in terms of blogging, and I was impressed on Instagram or Twitter or any of those things. But having a digital following was so useful when you start when you launch a brand. Or when you you create a book. And so I think opportunities come because you work hard. And you have an audience.
I feel like a real fraud. I'm not I've never blogged in my life. And I blog therefore I am.
And then yeah, that's my cup. It doesn't actually hold that much coffee, which is kind of the issue with him. It's quite a narrow. Yeah. I like it. I think it's great. It's your cup now. Yeah, I mean, you're a craftsperson, as well, I think that's like part of it, which is like the writing and all that sort of thing. It's not I want to build an audience. It's I want to express myself and write and, and that sort of thing. I guess that's Do you think that people miss the mark of their people misinterpreting the building the audience versus the craft, and how important it is? Listen,
I think it's a marriage of both. And I think you can choose to focus on one or the other. But I think like I was saying before, for me, writing is such a joy, and playing with people. And so when I construct sentences, whether it's an Instagram caption, or a blog, or in a book, I, I do it to please myself. But I'm also very aware that there's an audience on the other side of that, and I'm hopeful and I love even with Instagram, you get that feedback going. I love this. This was this worked for me whether it was breakup boss, which is the one I by far get the most content feedback back on. bit. Yeah, so I am aware of the audience, but I'm still selfishly writing for me and I do projects that I want to do. I think you have to I think that's the selfishness of blogging is that you thought that what you were writing was important enough that you had to do it every day? Well, I mean, I think
your email is a testament to that. Because whenever you send an email, it's always crafted so beautifully. I feel like whenever I'm writing back to, it's like, there's always a level of pressure of being like, oh, not even pressure. It's the thing if I had this is fun, like what, like, you can have fun with.
Well, it's your it's your skill. It's and for me, it doesn't feel like work. It feels fun. And you're you're a good audience because you're you're playful and you're you're chatty in someone's, and you're in the media. So would you know, but not every email to my team? Is that delightful? Yes. Let's just wait. But
I try and make my wife's comment about your content. Because I asked she's not just coming to me. She says she's content. Fresh, I catch up. She says it's very relatable. And I think that from what it sounds like comes from you thinking about what is going on in your head and personally, that's your best shot at relating with somebody else's talking about what's going on. For us one of the most relatable pieces of content on your Instagram is your bit about cold sores. Oh, me. Yeah, I know. I grew up I got no problem with being the cultural queen. Oh my IT who's the cultural King Michael jacket? My brother RJ go? Oh my god, I should say the family photo album. It's nearly every photo the kids gonna cancel. And I got them and I just and this is so unreliable for you Josh because you know the people that just do that terrific photo.
Oh, you're disgusting. So discriminate at
it's this full on I got like a little pimple that I thought
like, Oh, you know,
the corner of the mouth. Now you just that's
orange juice. Now you know what you need to put on that
by the way. I was putting other things on it. You need to put up a cortisone cortisone cream on there on the corner. Not yet because you're eating bad food and you go to
the petrol I believe.
Growing up I remember it was such a such a. I remember one go to school because of cold. So it's funny in the social death, it was the worst as I've gotten older, I always embrace them if I get them, whatever. I'm mom used to kiss me on the lips, because she knew that will make me feel when she say it's okay, darling, a little peck on the lips. I mean, so then that was very relatable piece. That's very sweet. of call.
Yeah. I mean, I yeah. But they they played my whole high school career. And I had one for the low a few years ago. My wife and I made that old wedding day. And as most people know, now that we've talked about it, we're bound to get one. Yeah, but I know what works because I, unfortunately, I live and I work in an industry where I'm not allowed to have a bad skin. And people often if they meet me, they're like, Oh, I do my makeup. extranet today, I'm like, No, you look beautiful. But I know that you're scrutinising me because I'm the one who's going out there going. Hey, everybody, let's have great skin. Yeah. So yeah, but I was just like, I don't have time for calls I have to fix and I do believe that I have. And I put it in highlights because everyone keeps asking you. Yeah, I mean
being the fan via
the antiviral tablets SF like I always have them on me. And then they come paid patches. Yeah, don't take them off.
Yeah, just Michelle. Sorry. I'm sorry.
Yeah, absolutely. Joe, the
you we're talking about the scrutiny of people looking at your face or whatever.
It's not certain is too strong a word. But you know, I think that's the that's what's gonna happen to people you said, I did say that note for me to put yourself out there and tell people what to do about with their lives in their face. And yeah,
I'm a personal trainer. You know that? Yeah, exactly. To the dresser. Yeah. I mean, my head dresses bald.
Yeah. I mean,
that's take the pressure off does. There is something that is there anything in life that you typically undersell and over deliver, deliver on, like real? Like, you know, it's a specific question, but I know when I was a kid, as a freelancer, I was the hype King being like my don't have a team Monday and Thursday. I'm like, I fucked up, you know? I mean, are you good with deadlines in that way? Yeah.
Well, to write a book, you have to be good at deadlines, although they mean that the stereotype is that we're not. And I'm, I am one of those people who can have internal deadlines that I can stick to. And I've actually, for the first time in my life, in 10, over 10 years, I've gone off contract with my books. And I did that deliberately because I wanted to write fiction again for the joy of it and the love of it. With no, no marketing scheduling.
Without an upholder. Is that what that Mike? Yeah, yeah,
yeah, I think what's, what's the value there? So that, you
know, it's the the four tendencies by Gretchen Rubin is a Gretchen Rubin. Yeah. But I think that it's like one of those things of I'm a boy, yeah, I'm the one that like will do do stuff. I'll say yes. And then I'll get really annoyed about it. And I'll push back on it, but then I'll do it anyway.
I think that's called resentment.
So for me, I think it's like I don't like to say anything that I want to do. So and then I
feel like that's a good thing to
do. But But what I realised in a business partnership is that's not Josh value, necessarily. We've all got our own set of values. Right. And so it's like a pocket my battles. Yeah. What What's it what's the value that you hold true to yourself? Zoe?
I just think if you're going to do it, do do do it. Well. Do your best and I have a hell no policies over there. And let sorry, hell yes. policy. So with my management, we get a lot of lovely opportunities and office and I'm pretty much like, and I can't remember who it was. I think it was I'm
Derek cyphers. Yes about it yesterday, baby. Well, him Yes.
But then there's the seven. So it's, it was on another podcast? canonise. Which one? But they said, you know, think of this project Adam a one to 10. But you know, lead to seven and how much you want to know. And then you if you're an A? It's a yes. If you were six? No. Like that.
Yeah. Tim Ferriss talks about it. It's one of those things? Well, no,
it's one of those.
Yeah, it is a Kevin clients. It's a it's a very clever way of distinguishing, like, you had the bullshit, right?
things. And it's your own bullshit, right? Uh, but I've got since I've had children, and I've got a business online, I just don't have spare time. So the projects have to be
pretty amazing to do them. spare time, and friendships and all that sort of thing. I feel like as I'm getting older, I can't tell whether it is productive or unproductive to become more insular, or just like, yes, like,
I've got this dream. I think it's not just understanding myself.
Whatever narrative you want,
I'm trying to work. I mean, what is that? What's your relationship with that I do
heavy introvert and very fine with that married to a heavy extrovert. And we sometimes just have a little alignment of that, because like, he could work in monster awake. And his idea of relaxing after that would be to go to dinner with 10 people. And my movie, put my soft clothes on, and have a glass of wine and sit on the couch. And so I sometimes just go, Hey, I married a writer who lived by yourself. Just remember who you married, because that's, that's who I am. But I am aware that I can become quite a hermit, particularly when I'm writing and just being with the kids and the family. And so I went to an event yesterday of a friends product launch, which I never ever go to. And I always like, sort of drag my fate. And then once I'm there, and I get home, I made like, I got three amazing things happen. Like I was like, looking for, you know, something, and someone had a recommendation. And I met a great person. And I'm just like, doing it more. Yeah, like you have to connect sometimes. And not just on Instagram, like
real life people. So is it bad pushing against what is natural to like, you know, should the introvert be authorised to be in it?
But I can be I think that we're all mixes but I can be very extroverted. But I just
yeah, I guess like,
one feels more comfy than the other? Well, because actually, I think
you're an extrovert, tj.
Yeah, I'd say but I reckon I've started to become more since having a kid and doing kids just
called being tired.
Yeah. But I definitely think I don't really want to, I'm focusing on this. And I got a wife and like that, that thought of getting home with my family. So lovely. Yeah,
and do that. But I think it's more isn't it more how you recharge, like, that's the true definition of an intro and extra, I'm not sure. But I you can go out and have an amazing day or time, but then you've got to like so I do a day of prayers afterwards. I Michelle, I can't talk because you've just given so much energy all day. And I think that's true of anybody. But yeah, I think it was a good reminder yesterday to sometimes just go Just get out there. Stop being such a home person. Is
it cooking it in advance that gives you the anxiety? Do you think like if you booked it out? I hate booking? Yeah.
Again, I didn't I'd probably say if he says, you know, you can't book things that far up, because you do you look at your calendar, you like, I don't have anything on in October. Do that. I like it, you get to October. Very, very good.
Well, I asked you about this, I think in my side like I did my own trick on you.
I'm actually sorry, walking, passing.
But I'm much more like I guess that 100% Yeah.
Yeah, it is because it's the anxiety. It's the thinking about it beforehand, that sort of builds out. Yeah. But then there's also the other thing, which like, there's a certain trait, and probably home would be more likely to do it. And Tommy would do it as well, which is just adding extra people to a dinner or something. Like for instance, I'm like very funny with like, I did a world trip for three months with a mate. And he did like that he's like, more is better. Okay. And it was like, it's a nightmare. So if I want like if you if you have someone if you want inviting someone to dinner or whatever, it freaks me out if all of a sudden someone else has rocked up.
Yeah, I think in my heart I'm a rules and routine person. And that makes me nervous when I've booked a table for four and then that can only fit for him. It was like Don't worry, they'll be fun. That is fun on the show. And I always like it at the end. Yeah, I always enjoy it. But my brain resists anything outside.
So is the resisting productive in any way. Nice.
Surely this I wanted to be productive?
It's not stupid. With all my worried my parental anxiety like it's bullshit. And you have a kid? Yeah, I was never an anxious person. Yeah. And now I'm one of those people. We
you can't Yeah, you can't survive if you were to be the kid like you How much? Yeah, just running around next minute the shadow shadow over there. And anyway,
the mountain folio
placing is that is that to hobbies? Have you got any? And I can't be writing and they can't be?
I don't that's not a hobby. That's absolutely not a hobby. It's work. But it's enjoyable work. hobbies. Such an 80s word? What? What does that
even mean? We actually looked it up what hobbies what you do in the time outside the spare time? So yeah, what are the things you do in your spare time?
Yeah, well, it's just being off. It's just having no plans. On the weekend, family just pretty much at home the whole time or together on bikes or, you know, going to have pancakes or something we just in. And I know that will change once the kids are doing sport and stuff like that. But we really love that stuff. And we see family and friends or whatever. But I don't like to lock in plans if I can.
I do tolerating because I think that makes you a better writer, or that makes me jealous sometimes.
And what is that feeling? Because I've there's been a couple of times over the last few months where I caught myself feeling down on myself based on someone else's success. Yes. And I was like, and it was, and the thing was that I was so happy for them. And it was such a reflection. Like, if I can do that. Why don't you do this or that? I mean, so how do you I mean, how do you
inspiring I remember when when I saw Scott Pilgrim years ago, and we both sat there just clinching the sick. Fuck. So good. Yeah. And, and a piece of art or book or TV show like big mouth and we watch that which is so good. A Russian doll or euphoria, you know, an amazing TV show, or whatever it is. I get inspired by that. And I think it's that so funny. You don't laugh because you just sitting there going. Alright, this is great. This is gonna make me leave my game. So I don't get down to myself. I just need a new standard now.
Yeah. I honestly taught
myself in the most ridiculous company because I'm like, Ah, geez, Tina Fey is good. I should be better. Yeah, it lifts
me makes me better. Its energy. It is yes. Looking at the negative for the positive like it's your
energy. Yeah. So if you think about energy, because we've been talking about, like Mr. 97. and I were talking the other week, where it's like, I have moments of slide. How would you describe it to JU, you experienced
myself manic? Oh, yeah, a little bit manic
a little bit. Like, we need to be doing this. We need to be changing that also thing. And it moves us forward. And we'd like it gets doing things but feels like it feels sort of productive. At the end. I'm like, Oh, look, we got the thing done. And like everyone sorted their shit out because I felt that way. But it would be nice if there was an easier way without having to like, make people feel sick.
I've got no advice. Next, I do sack same thing. Yeah, that's fine. I have one of those assholes that has an idea or say something and emails my marketing director and says, we need to do this. Yeah. And it will be great. And I just throw her sideways when she was on an amazing trajectory already. That was well thought out, plan scheduled. And then and then some of those ideas, they do move you forward. And then they are clever, and they're great. But it's that you know, classic trope of the the founder who's you know, wild and can't be tamed and has the ideas. And I reckon I have probably, you know, maybe 10 ideas a day and nine stinkers, but it's worth having the ideas just to
move one of them forward at one point, you know, it's a good idea. And do you know, it's a good idea?
If it sticks, like often will have a meaning week later? And they're like, Okay, so here's the, here's the the project that we're talking about. I'm like, What is this? And they're like, this was the thing that you wanted to turn like, really? on so painful. I would hate to work enemy nice, because it would just be such a waste of energy. So now I'm like, Hey, don't work
with like, really talked about it? And
what have you learned about yourself through having a tank?
Well, I've now got a marketing director who is so great, and so experienced, and so good at handling me and understanding when I'm just having a, like, I'm just spit balling. And when I actually made it, and as a good idea, it's when she picks up a pen, which is like, when she writes it down. I'm like, Okay, that was a good one. Yeah, okay. So he's, it's finding people who understand you and know how to sort of read you,
and it doesn't feel like I guess part of it is that, that those moments of extreme anxiety or like having a certain energy gets the result that you want. And so it's like working out if that becomes your standard, then sometimes it might not feel like people are understanding how passionate or important you think x y&z it is, unless you bring that energy?
No, I don't think I feel that way. I think I haven't had my best ideas what I meant to be doing something else. So classic is sitting in the board meeting for go to, and they're talking about financials or something. And I will have astonishing ideas at that time, because I'm so bored. And and it's that thing of for a lot of people who are creatives that when their brain is meant to be doing something, or going for a run or having share, when your brain is busy doing something else, then the actual creativity comes so I can't You can't sent me an email and go, Okay, what are we going to do for our next, you know, pop up track, or whatever it is, I'm not going to give it to you in that moment. It's going to come
when I'm walking my daughter to school, do you have more board meetings now just so you can have ideas? Are we gonna put up? I mean, I mean, these just storeys that we're telling ourselves that this is the place, you know, it could be for when you know, when the moon's over here, and I've had half a cup of water, I can make the best
videos, you can tell yourself anything you want. It's rubbish, like, but I do believe that there is a lot of literature that supports that, that brain switch between, you know, a rote activity and the creativity coming. Whereas when you sit down with a pen and paper and go, I must be creative. It doesn't often it
is or is there a way that you can get a perspective very quickly? Have you worked out a way of
need a bit of time I given a night's sleep? Like I made a big decision yesterday and already this morning? Like, yeah,
I didn't tell anyone. So that's a good one.
Tell them about the idea. I get that. What about food you're writing? You know, that's something that takes a lot of effort to get into the headspace is what I think this is my storey right now what is it for you as an author?
Oh, well, for nonfiction, no nonfiction is feels very easy. It's like writing a lot of columns or essays, which I've done a lot of. But I'm about to do fiction again. And it's been about six years. So I am feeling a bit nervous. And I really want to do something good. And I'm telling myself, it's going to be great. And so just go to start. But I also I'm making excuses. I'm like why can't start until like this new product launches, because we're all very busy. And you know, I just want to sort out Sunday school for next year. And then and then once that's done, so I am holding up but I know also that once I mean, I mean, and I'm committed and it's it's like when a fiction book is rolling in May it's like I'm at maybe I'm sorry, I wish it was a better way to explain it. But it's like the information just flows through me. And then so it's it's flow. And like breakup boss. I think I wrote most of it in a weekend. And I think I felt in my waters that I was pregnant, but I hadn't done the test yet. With this is with ready. Yeah. And so I knew that as soon as I got pregnant, I would have morning isn't I wouldn't be able to right. So I time you're on sunny for the whole weekend. And I just sat like the possessed and I got like 30,000 words out. Wow. And but I think I just knew that I had to get done.
Can you manufacture that?
No, I don't think so. I think it's no, I can't and I'm a deadline person. Like when the books do I can write? Yeah, like 10 20,000 words in two hours. I'm in two hours, two days just to get it done. But that flow. No, it's coffee. It's time and space. And when you've got young children to get that clean headspace to write fiction is really hot.
The consistency for us has been a big one just showing up and doing this show is you know that well done. Thank you speak. The rule is we can't miss one. And we and I feel I would feel so guilty if we miss.
Yeah, we stopped the show. What do they do?
Because they've committed so we do
it? Yeah, we just yeah, we don't. We don't like make Jordan Michael ladies had organised Gary Vee To be honest, podcast. Yeah, taste it. And then if I can pull the pin and so the lesson it like, Oh, yeah, that's one of the lessons that we have, which is like when we had organised Seth Godin in New York. Until that That shit was recorded in the can and ready to exist in click Publish. Yeah, we're not packing talking about it, because we're gonna jinx it. So I man Yeah,
he's the God of our house.
It was it was a bizarre experience. I mean, that could have gone pear shaped that could have been. Yeah, I mean, we flew to New York.
Yeah. Well, I said, we're gonna be in New York. I said, we're gonna be hanging out. We're just gonna be in New York. And
he was I didn't know how I didn't ask Josh if it was all good. Because I you know, when you don't ask somebody because you know that then they will be. Chrissy, Josh. Turns out he hadn't emailed Seth until we were in New York.
Well, I didn't want to be I didn't want to overflowing inbox. I was just like, let's just be cool about it. What's the worst case scenario? And so, yeah,
he's in Denmark, and he
already locked in a few months earlier, whatever. And so it was all good as God. So I felt very confident about it. But it's interesting, because it is that getting guests and getting people on board, there's a huge amount of respect that you need to bring to all of that. And I guess that's part of it, which is, it's not all just like, you can always just be thinking about your outcome like, so for us. We're thinking about, we need to know this sort of stuff. And for for me, I was thinking for Seth, that's just another thing that he needs to risk response
is another one of consistency. He's blown that he puts out every day, how many words 20 something million words a day. Yeah. Crazy, crazy. Any. And he didn't set out. He said, I didn't set out to do this every day. And I can't remember the day that it became every day. And for us, we can remember those times. But I think in bringing back to the consistency, is there something that you've used that matter of consistency of showing up and
it just all went out when the kids came because I did have a great, you know, get up early and right before email started to come in. And that's that beautiful, quiet time in the house when you know, you I didn't even put me on because email is the biggest distraction. To the point where I've got your thing, I've got out of office on saying I don't read my emails and talk to these people, which is a great line of defence. But yeah, I don't really have that routine anymore. And I used to do Saturday morning six to 10, which was always a great time to write because again, there's nothing coming into your inbox. And life's a bit less crazy than weekdays. But since I've had the kids and my camp early and being on them, it's not there anymore, so I have to manufacture it. And it's not one my Brian uprights best. So I'm gonna have to be one of those people who wakes up earlier than the children. Like,
oh, horrible. It's gonna be hot. So what does that actually mean for you? Then what do you
well, even if I did six, to like, 645, I can get some good stuff done, because that is my flow time. You just don't get it as a parent.
You actually got an external office for a bit.
I did not get it. Yes, I have to have it. Yeah. And I don't use it enough. But the times when I use it, it's the only way I got my last book finished. Yeah, was to have that because you know, I've got a two year old at home. And if she knows you there, she wants to play with you. And I want to play with her. Yeah. So on the days that I have a nanny, they'll have three days a week where I can work and do my business and my writing. And I need to do it and get it out of the house. What needs to be set up in the office space. what's the what's the vibe on just a desk? I've written many books that just a desk, but it's a nice vibe. Like it's because I have my team have meetings there and so on. But it just feels nice as a candle and good Wi Fi.
It sounds uncomplicated. It is because we complicate everything. Yeah, usually. And that sounds really,
yeah, I don't need to write I just need actually laptop,
or really only the pen the paper or laptop. Yeah. But I think it's the fountain pen. It's the most
shocking with actually writing with a fountain pen like my, my handwriting is horrendous before he's a nice. I'm trying to push through the barrier of being a bad handwriting icon, right?
It sounds like the stage you're at with the kids and where you've your previous routines that you seems like you won't be able to use any of these excuses if you actually want to do it. Right.
So right. And and maybe that's why I said I'll go off contract for this one. I don't want to be beholden to a timeline, because it might take a very short time or might take a very long time. But I think what I've got to do now is go back to compartmentalising. So I used to have a sit stand desk, and I would stand for comes and I would sit for writing. And then I tried two different laptops. One was for writing and one was comes. And I've tried to create all these things. You listen to a podcast and like that's going to be the big and it's not. So what I have to do is go back two days of the week. So you know, Monday is my go today. And Friday can be my writing day. And I have to do that and have to do that now have to commit to myself not to anyone else. That's fine. Go to always I'll get my work done. But for the book. Yeah.
What about like, the cyclical nature of creativity as well. Like? I noticed that winter in Melbourne bothers you a fair bit being Sydney, it's like go away for it. I mean, yeah, is that being something from a lifestyle design point of view around creativity and what's important, I'm curious as to some of those non negotiable throughout the year that you may have.
I think it's just a human like, I just need something to look forward to and to warm my bones because I'm not used to seven months of winter. And low grace guys sort of do my heading. I think I do probably have a bit of seasonal affective disorder like I just a need for the kind of Should I do it? Let's be honest, it's frosty. It's live. It's fun. And I remember when Haim was doing filming New Zealand in Invercargill, which is very low and very, and very quiet. And I went over then I was I said, I'll come because this is my kids. And I was like, I'll just come and write a book like that, because you'll be peaceful. I noticed knuckle down. And I realised very quickly that I need traits to work. I need to be able to do two hours of work and then go Ivan to croissant. Yeah, go to a cafe and get that I can rely. Yeah. And I do and I was in an area where I couldn't have that like carrot dangling. And it was terrible. But also I was trying to write you know, I think it was the young man. And I was trying to write this book and I was in a little bit of hell.
I mean, who didn't grow up in Sydney, get it? Or if you've lived there it like? I mean, they get a winter. Yeah, it's so different. We lived in Bondi for a while 3d deal was up there on Monday, and it was it was swimming at Bondi Beach. It's winter, guys. It is a different vibe. I took all my jackets up there. were one of them. What's the better city Melbourne?
I know, I love me, but I won't be drawn into that. Because I think they're both.
No, I think we're lucky to have to go. So different. But I'm here now and I never thought I'd live in Melbourne. But that's what happens. And I honestly waited till I was six months pregnant before moving like fine. But I'm I'm here and I really love it. And I love the I think it's a bit more understated. And I think a lot of people moved to Sydney and particularly in the magazine industry. Everyone that I worked with had come from Adelaide, Wonder camera. I came from very small town to make something of yourself. Yeah, you know, and so we're all there with purpose and a reason and I think in Melvin, you're probably from Melbourne, and you just get on with things.
Yeah. It's interesting that you didn't like that experience of being in the cold because I feel like creativity. Like I like the idea of being poor pouring with rain outside and makes me want to sleep.
I want to I want sunshine and to go for a run.
So like la would be like, have you ever done a stint in LA or anything like that?
Actually, last time I went was the first time I thought okay, because I was in the Kuwait is like Silver Lake and there's a lot of Ozzy's there and some cool stuff happening now. I know I
knew to figure that out.
I'd always only ever been and you know, Hollywood and yeah, I always felt like it would be human work that would take his day. He had something that he was telling me a bit. Yeah, I thought I could do this. Yeah, you've done a little stint in New York. What do you Yeah, well, that killed me. I mean, in terms of, I love New York to visit but it is a heavy energy city in terms of like, you give so much at City me it takes so much from you, and you get so much from it. But that transferral at the end of every day just shattered. And we had, you know, really wasn't even what she just turned one. And my son was, you know, high energy four year old, and I was trying to launch the brand over there and then work with the Australian team overnight and a big launch back here. And I just you shouldn't combined work and, and family. It was a shitty idea. What's your relationship
with journalists? Because during that time, I remember him saying, Oh, yeah, we'll get we're going on this holiday or whatever. And then you read it in the news to New York, and then the next than the next headline, he's decided to come home. That's what happens when you go on a holiday. I mean, what What's your relationship with with journos?
Like, I guess, uh, yeah, the press, I guess that sort of broader sense where it's like, do you constantly have to worry about the things that you're riding online, and how that's going to be,
you can choose to give energy to it or not. And that was a lesson we learned. And some of the things we did was, we would just not engage. And what we realised is that if you don't know it's being written, it doesn't exist. And I think we live in a small pocket of media world, like a lot of our friends, and we're all sort of in the media. So we we sort of keep track of it. And but outside of that no one really knows what's going on. And no sure that a lot of its bullshit. So yeah, I guess when I write a post, my main thing is I don't want to ever offend or upset anybody. And I keep my Instagram and my copy in my work, light and happy. Yeah. And I do even get criticised for that. Just like, oh, what about real life? Like, of course, I have real life. Yeah. But I'm what I choose to show you guys. And this was like, as a beauty editor that you got dressed up every day. And you had to look like a paediatric because you're representing the magazine out in the world. And I feel like that's what I'm doing an Instagram, I'm dressing up for you. And I'm, that's what the face that I choose to show to you. I look at some of the articles that may be misleading. I click through to the journals, and I honestly go down the trail to see the young journal. It's written to hit pieces. I mean, I just wonder if they obviously don't have the mantra of being nice to people don't write things that aren't
they're doing their job as well. Right. So the problem is, they're not
learning that it will be a hard learning curve, though. I think,
you know, it's what are they getting? What are they getting?
teaching them? Like, what are they learning? Really? It's, I mean, I feel like the metric is so dubious, because it's based on clicks attention, and what is most outrageous what's going to inspire the biggest, you know, click, and I think that's a terrible way to learn journalism, I think it's a really poisonous way to learn how to write. So I feel sorry for them, because my training is agenda was learning and a team of collaborators who are putting together magazine and, and and working together to be better to do good work. And so I know that they need a job. And I, I hope that they find a better one.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, what would you say to? I mean, you're getting a lot of requests, and just that inbound stuff of whether, you know, be brands or people reaching out for a bunch of different things. What is the What's your thoughts or mantra around that stuff that maybe you could pass on to people who are wanting to reach out or requesting things from, you know, people within the media?
I'm a terrible one to ask because we have we don't accept unsolicited stuff. We don't need it, and we don't want it in a house. So yeah, it's a funny one. I think if something's good, it will find you. And I think, you know, I do want to help out, small business and so on, but I think people's etiquette is CB it but I also realised that I personally make it hard for them because we weren't accepted through our management and, you know, deems. It's not the way that
it's not professional, or the amount of people that had deemed Gary Vee, and can I have an internship like YV got up and said, I'm the guy from the DM that you said no to that.
But I guess the thing is that the the empathy lens is people just don't know what the fuck they're doing that everyone's trying to do it. So it might hit Yeah, you never know. So what's the weapon? Like? If you were to say like, Hey, this is actually to enable people to be better. Is that? Is there an answer?
I don't know. I feel I think you just have to believe in your work and do good work. So someone asked me the other day, a barista, she was like, how do I get my graphic design out there? What's the thing? And I remember a lot again, whereas would send me How do I get my work sane. And I was like, start a blog, start a blog. And this was a long time ago. But I always believed in specificity. So just be the person who writes about chopping up butter brownies, be that person and be the best at it. Be specific, because generic is not going to come through no one needs another food blog. Yeah, we want just the brownie girl. So I said to her, you know, what's your Instagram, and she said, I'm not really have one up to date. And I know, first thing people are going to look at, you have to make your portfolio. So good. And I said, what we get a lot of beautiful designers is that they'll designer go to product. So they'll draw it up in this specific way. And then tag us and like that's clever. Shows you work? Yeah. Don't ask something don't ask us to take you on yet. Let us see your work.
How do you find you? How do you know when to do the ask? Because I think one of the things that that's like a tonne of the feedback that we Tommy and I get all the time is how under leveraged we are not like in regards to the network we have because we respect like the people who were connected with, we're friends with, we want to be like, it's not transactional. For us. having you on the daily talk show is about actually having a conversation and it's not about trying to push our numbers.
you can feel that. And so I mean, how do you? How do you think about those things? I'm wondering if there's any clarity that you have on that stuff? About about the knowing when to ask. So I guess they realised that like, especially coming from the mouth of the Monday thing, which is just like tall poppy syndrome, like you need to get out there and all that sort of thing. Whereas we're coming from it from the thoughtful lens of we're planning on doing the show for 10 years, at what episode do we ask
you to do 400? And then go not 500 is the number then we might start trying to pull in five? Right now? Yeah. 600.
And so part of it is a level of him not imposter syndrome, but just being like,
we haven't arrived. But I think that that is enough for people to understand the fact that you guys are mindful of that and that you don't want to call in favours, that speaks volumes. Yeah. Because people can sense when they're being used. And people can sense when, like, some people will write me and say, I have a storey business, it would be really helpful to me if you could post about it. Yeah, I know, that it would be helpful to make Kim Kardashian with us go to, but you have to do the work and get noticed. And and you can't. I think there's this shortcut culture now because of dams and things like that, where people just go, I've made a thing, and you're a famous person, I'm going to connect the two. But having said that, sometimes it flies Yeah. But I think most of the time the work has to do the work, not the ask. And you have to earn the ask if that makes sense. Because like, I think back to I think in the sense of entitlement that some people come through it, whereas what I would ask like when I was very young and working for me freedom and I was like this the whole time like ah, and and i think that respect for for people who are able to help you and able to offer you advice and so on, it still has to be there.
Yeah. What do you look for any young person that joins the go to?
We just hired and I look for talent, obviously, I think you can train people to do anything was at heart so challenges talent, Harless copy, it was copy. So it's obviously something I'm very hardcore about. of Yeah,
well, I'm looking for talent.
And so I think, is it so the difference is, Are you trying to get if someone writes like Zoe foster Blake, is that what you like? I could imagine, because you've got such a distinct style. If I was a copywriter going in there, right? Like me? Yeah, I think I think that that that could be an easy trap that people have, like, I'm going to, if I can write something that sounds like, that's what zombies gonna want,
which I would understand that makes sense. But I think what you had to think about was more the brand. So we gave, we set up the parameters for this person or these people to to write about. And we said, here's what it is. This is the product and this is a launch and we gave them a new scenario. And then we let them go. And then those who showed promise, I was like, Okay, now I'm going to teach you the words I would never use. Yeah. And just to help you know what I'm looking for. And then by that second round, beautiful,
what are some of those words?
Oh, what it pertains to a new launch like
it's sorry, that's such a silly but there are I have pet hate words and I think is where you I mean, the go to Tony's its own time. Yeah, but it's come from my brain, obviously. But now the girls and with the women sorry that that right for go to have mastered their go to time. Would you ever say silky skin? silky high time? They'll be fine. This
It's more like weird. Like, you know, we don't say babe. Okay, yeah, sure you have certain tone for each brand that you have your words that you're doing it? I mean, that's what Frank body would like.
Yeah, it doesn't necessarily keep with everyone. I know. Like Bray was always like, doesnt sit with me that style, but it will sit with other people, which is really interesting. And I've had a few businesses and I've thought about in the past tone of voice and how do I find that? what's what's your suggestion for someone who has a product, and they don't just want it to be a box they want it to?
Well, I think this is actually an excellent example. Because they knew their time from day one. And they mastered it. And it's perfect. And you know, the time so the fact that we throw it away, we just went Oh, that's it. So that's a big tick, I think someone I think it's a funny one with tone. Because a brand isn't a person, it doesn't have a tone, you you're giving it something and I always make sure that anyone who works with go to has a name and a face when they're writing back to people like hey, it's Jamie here or whoever, maybe. So tone has to be authentic. You can't sustain it. If it's not. So whatever you're doing, it should be just, it should just flow. It should be who you are.
And it depends what your product is. Should you be putting your name? Sorry, sir. I think about like, branding, having my own company, it's a different name to me. To separate entity, separate entity blood humans connect with humans again. So I don't want to call my company my name, but then does the brand. So if you do have a business be many company. Is it just us? Is it actually just Josh and is it our voice? Is that what we should be pushing into it to then create its identity or its tone? I think so for you to
say yeah, that's it, because people know who you guys are. They already like it. So that you've already got that base there.
And so is there a Is there a move I guess on that scaling pace? people, people who create businesses that scale would say, Okay, well, you can't. We can't lean on one person. Like we know that the daily talk show. There's no exit strategy for the daily talk show. Because it's because it's ass. Yeah. Is that been a conversation?
Well, this is four hour workweek. This is what I learned. This is Tim Ferriss, don't you bet on automated business? Because everything you do as a rider and or as a comic, or is it an actress or a TV presenter ease you, you're the only one who can do it. And that's actually not a great way to ever give yourself a break for one thing. So go to is now my automated business. It has a lot of me through it, obviously. And I'm front and centre, but it can run without me. Yeah. And that's a huge relief. Because now when I do write a book or something that can only be done by me, it's sort of more enjoyable, because it's,
it's me, it's back to me, the things, I think it's the US market, push that even further because I guess the your status within the US versus the Australian market. Did you feel like was an opportunity to say, okay, am I going to push myself Ford as the thought leader within this? Or am I going to talk more about the product itself?
Yeah, great question. And we had to get advice on that from our US Agency. But their position was very much that you need a founder like when if you've got a talking head, who's got experience in the industry, that's far more valuable than just going here as a brand and fall in love with it. So you need that fan that to hand hold and bring them through and go, this is my journey. This is why I created this particular you've been in the media industry that's adds that level of credibility. So yeah, they're all for it. And they were like, You're so cute and different. And like you have short curly hair, and you're not like the other fan is
video because I remember distinctly the video that you brought out where you're got the coffee cup, and you're walking around. It felt like an international play in some regards
festival in the US. Yeah. So it was very, we had to very quickly and visually and totally present the brand in like one minute. And it's not something we're used to because you can remember we were direct to consumers that we had a direct line back and forth was a customer and suddenly now like going into a store, and we're like we've been American Guess who's never heard of us and doesn't care. And we're trying to very quickly submit our tone in that way different. So it was a good challenge. I think we got there. I think we made it clear that we allow chickens. And we're Ozzie and we're silly, but our stuff actually works.
Did they point out anything that was sort of in your blind spot based on being in Australia?
No. And I think America that's why America is the first market we chose to go into because the tone the sense of humour does work. And obviously in England, it would work but I think if you're trying to crack the Asian market, perhaps a lot of the translation of our slang and all the makeup words that I make up so many words that have got through. Yeah, it would be tricky. Well, I was listening to Gemma, what's her podcast with the founder of bond ice. And so it was interesting how he was really talking about that Australia, Anna, or like pushing that the Australian tans are trending right now. Yeah, I mean was on day one specifically.
Yeah. The Melbourne 10 is horrendous.
Looks like a lot of time.
And yeah, so what's what's the all your thoughts on their perception of Australia and what sort of products the Australian market make? And I just the other point is like, road, the microphone brand, which has all these mics. They actually have a fancy on the Oh, it looks like some sort of like Swedish, European sort of thing. As a way to look more euro. They're an Australian kit. They're based in Sydney, they manufacture in Sydney. What was that for you? What was the thought process for you with that?
It was funny because a beauty which is the thing now which is like because it started with KBD, which is Korean beauty in Korean sort of changed the whole skincare market around a couple of years ago. And now abt is a big thing, which is great for us. And Frank bought another rz brands and because Australian beauty is having a moment and when people think of Australian beauty they think of you know caca do plan, you know, a domestic ingredients that we use from I think they think that it's just we go out and get some shrubs and whatnot like this. And there's the what a lifesaver in a kangaroo walks past. Like it was actually funny to say some of the articles written because they're still using the tropes from like a talk about on the butterfly, and yet. But our skincare is so sophisticated that they are appreciate it. And they like it. And they're talking about it and using it. So we were grateful.
What is premium main premium? Yeah. to you as a brand.
Oh, I'm the go to Yes. Oh, I didn't think of us as a premium brand. I think of us as a premium brand internally, because our, our quality control and our products and our ingredients have such high standards. But in terms of where we've placed ourselves in the market and our price point, we wouldn't be considered premium.
Yeah, it's interesting because like so much of that is also just like marketing as well. Like the difference between print like you'd be using the same product
could use the same vessel in the same location and change the label. And we could call us premium $40 more. But when I came into go to going, I just want skincare to be easy for people. And I want it to be accessible and reliable. And you don't get that when you're charging $90 Absolutely.
Sorry faster bike. How about you? Thank you for coming on the show.
Wow. Yeah, that's a
thing. It's like we've we've had some pretty crazy stuff that we're waiting on fat Fridays, which is
on the Bobby's Oh, yeah, no, I haven't done it yet.
But thanks for coming on the show. If you want to send us an email hyper daily talk show.com we don't get many email so we respond to it while we've we now respond to them. There was a time about a week where we were actually getting emails. We started we started
Zoey recommendation book on a like recommending what
do you do be reading? Well, small giants for people in marketing business. And I've just finished three women by Lisa Toledo. which is fantastic. And it's amazing, but I won't be the only person to tell you that and euphoria. TV show
once upon a time in Hollywood recommend it, would
but I'm sorry, this is the problem with expectation because everyone's like it's the best one night and I've got Kill Bill in my mind and I think that's phenomenal. And it's just it's a slower pace less violence.
You don't know what you don't like what do you don't like watching long films Do you have a
I appreciate a good at it though.
Cuz I'm always tired but
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