- May 16, 2019
It’s Thursday and we’re joined by the wonderful Andrea Clarke. Andrea previously worked in Washington D.C. as news correspondent and spent time in the war torn Middle East as a humanitarian aid worker. After being exposed to some extremely high pressure environments, Andrea now empowers individuals through CareerCEO – a leading communications training program supporting emerging leaders and top executives to communicate with authority. Andrea’s newly released book, ‘Future Fit: how to stay relevant and competitive in the future of work’ – which by the way is super captivating – delivers practical advice to keep up in intimidating workplace situations and dealing with the uncertainty that the future holds.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we discuss:
Going from journalism into corporate communications
The responsibility to do the right thing
Compartmentalising emotion in reporting
Working with people that inspire you
Isolation and disconnect
The new way of networking
Creativity and the future of work
Choosing how you want to convey yourself
Buy Andrea’s book, Future Fit: https://www.careerceo.com.au/futurefit
Andrea on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrealouiseclarke/
Andrea’s website, CareerCEO: https://www.careerceo.com.au/
Watch today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3lrgEieu9Y
Subscribe and listen to The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.thedailytalkshow.com/
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Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
Daily Talk Show Episode 348. And in the middle
Andrea clock welcome. What's up? What's happening?
I were basically Instagram friends love it.
Well, we I actually saw Andrea, you speak at the few business, what would you call that a financial executive women? I knew I had an acronym. But I couldn't nail it. But I saw you deliver a keynote in Brisbane and it was very captivating. The room? Yeah, the women loved it. And I was there. I was one of the only men in the room.
I'm so glad you said that. Because I was feeling donuts when I was up there really nothing? Well, audience is giving you nothing. And that was tough. Because the room was weirdly set up if you remember, it was like, you know, it was like 180 degrees. And as a speaker that's disconcerting. Yeah, keeping on the time, and it can't kind of engage with the audience properly. So
it was a room full of
accountants or lawyers. Just a room full of highly excitable papal.
The title, what I loved was, it kind of blew me away, because in your book feature fit you the first chapter, you go into your time that you spent in places like Iraq, which is crazy. I thought we were on the front line here. And
you were really on the front line, which I
love that your book you you blend this, you know, you blend these personal stories with these sort of practical take homes, on what it's like for the future of work, which hence the name future fit. It sounds like you've read at least the first chapter.
No, I'm really impressed as to gronk who are pretty bad at writing.
It was it was surprised we got through half in bit over a day. Yeah. And that's, that's a fast rating of it.
Even even my girlfriend Bray was shocked to see me I had my pencil out and I was reading it. And it was like, Yeah,
it's a thing you people are highlighting underlying taking notes. And you know, the highlight is back people.
Yeah. What I love this, just hearing that you lived and worked in DC. And all I know of DC is from what I've seen in with House of Cards. And Jason Bourne when he visits it's
Yeah, we can talk.
I am a little bit.
But I love watching the opening credits, especially the House of Cards, because I know all of those places. And it's really bizarre to watch a show that is so captivating. And you know this, you know where they're shooting?
Yeah, well, Capitol Hill, little suburb right next to the White House. Is that where you lived? You know,
I was I was 13th and n. So I was only about, you know, five blocks from the White House. So I would literally, you know, I'll never forget, I was on the top floor of a building. And I would wake up in the morning and Marine One would just be cruising past, you know, with the backup marine two and three in case Marine One got shot down. So and you never knew which one the President was in. So who was
the president at the time? Obama? Okay, yeah.
So always in there from the bush to Obama years. And there was always so much happening in that particular quadrant, I was in the northwest corner of DC and, and that was that was where the action was. So whenever there was an evacuation on Capitol Hill or a bomb threat, you would know about it, because it's literally next door, you made the transition from being a journalist to sort of more communications
How did journalists or your fellow fellow colleagues see that type of career transition?
That's a great question. And I'm still trying to figure it out. I don't know if no one is telling me because I think I should have stayed in my, you know, in my job, but the transition for me has been so much more rewarding than I thought it would be. I've always loved to tell the backstory, I love the story. I love connecting with people and having them share their stories in a way that's compelling to the audience, obviously. So for me moving from journalism into columns, it's the same, the same rules apply. It's the same thing. I'm still telling stories and helping people tell the best version of their stories, to connect with their audiences. It's simply a different context. So but the the theme is still the same. And that's been a theme that's been continuous for my career.
I've had some interesting avenues in my career, which we don't need to get into. But how I really
gone from stripping to pay to pay to
radio to now hanging out with you. gronk. But I always think about like, like, I remember when I was a strip, I was like, how do you really work? I was Yeah, I was like, on a big stage traveled around New Zealand. It's not that commendable. Really, I mean, your your charisma,
I'm sure that you have it a level of executive presence.
Go, I learned a lot
about the world when I was 19. But I think about, you know, in in your book, you talking about being in a plane coming down to land in this chapter. Yeah. I got past the first. Sorry, impressed with you. It's captivating you and you're coming down into this war zone. Yeah. And your nose diving. But I was thinking you did mention kind of what what you were thinking of that moment. But I think about people over in those areas doing jobs like you and and i think about what's the story, like, how do you do you look at what you're doing going? How if I ended up being like,
Oh, for sure, every day, what are the steps? And what are the steps to in the morning that I was on that UN Charter flight out of Amman and I flew into Amman from from DC and had the not there before I was getting on the plane. And it was a weirdest feeling because the night before the hotel, I was on my own. And I was thinking well, I don't know. What do you do the night before you going into Baghdad? I guess you know, do I write some notes in case something goes wrong? I made sure that someone had a decent headshot of me in case you know, I was going to be
missing or something. Please just don't use a shit photo.
Maybe attend to the day finally.
I'm the person who used to do that. Yeah, I'm across it. Yeah. So I was in a hotel room the night before thinking well, I guess I'm just gonna hope for the best. And when you I think when you commit to a job like that, it's important to to be really at peace with what you're doing, you know why and and be convinced it that you're doing it for the right reasons. Otherwise, you couldn't you couldn't do it. But it was interesting that morning, I was went out to the airport and got on the plane. And I was like, Where's everyone else in the novel? Like, you're the only passenger. I'm like, I'm the only passenger on this channel fly into Baghdad. It's already already have, you know, my mind was already going fairly crazy with that, because it just was weird. It was weird silence on there on my own thinking, yeah. How did I get here? Like, what? What were the steps? How do you hack for
something like that? What do you bring?
Look, packing is a sport. As far as I'm concerned. I excel at packing. And, you know, I was carrying a pretty small bag. So it was just basics, because apparently the flak jacket was going to be supplied to me on landing. Yeah, yeah. So that was the extra stuff. But yeah, I had those have those moments a lot in store to how did I get here. And it's a non linear path. But I guess part of it is.
I mean, I knew I wanted to get out of journalism out of Philly. Out of Philly strong experience on the way to work. in DC One morning, I was walking past a newsstand going into the Al Jazeera bureau al jazeera english bureau where I was working at the time. And I didn't pick up a newspaper, I didn't pick up the new york times the first time, like ever, I looked at it on my phone. And I thought I literally stopped and thought, if I'm a working reporter, and I'm looking at the times on my phone, what does that mean, for everyone else? And what does it mean for the industry. And that was literally the day where I walked into the newsroom, and started looking for another job. And I've always been fascinated and, and felt obligated to contribute to human rights in some way. And so literally a month later, I found myself, I was unfortunately pushed out of that by an amazing mentor of mine, ringcentral son, he got me into a major aid group. And a month later, I was packing a bag to Baghdad. So it was all very real. And you can't once you're on that train, you can't stop it. And I wanted I actually I did a master's in international security studies and defense studies because I wanted to be a war reporter. But coming to the Gulf War, watching the first and then second Gulf War, it was obvious that, you know, when you're embedded, there's a certain amount of propaganda that goes along with that. So I felt I couldn't, I wasn't going to pursue it as as a standalone career, because you know that you can only contribute so much when you're when you when your days being governed by the military. So I was, I was not unhappy at all about going into that situation as an aid worker. Because at that point in my life, I felt like I could contribute more to what was going on?
Is there a sense of helplessness when you are writing about these big world issues? Because I feel like with even thinking about climate change, and all these big things, I'm sort of like, I have two thoughts, which is like, I'm gonna change my light bulb and by cape cap, and then the other side is it's like, so we can be fucked by something. And so I'm just going to sort of like, not stress about it, it's gonna hurt. Yeah. And what where do you fit on the spectrum of hope?
really optimistic about the future, I like to think that human beings are going to be a lot more proactive about saving this planet. And as someone who has seen abject poverty and being, you know, deeply affected by it, they are, that is the demographic that's going to be impacted first. And, you know, I think that I think we're going to see a swing back towards people giving more of a sheet because this climate emergency Israel, I do think that that there is going to be an awakening to some degree on that. And I think that, you know, there will be incremental action that will lead to, you know, a five, quite a moment because we had that urgency that I think is hitting us in ways that hasn't necessarily hit us before
your business career CEO. You're helping people be the CEOs of their own career, have you felt throughout your career that you've had control of us,
I've had absolutely no fucking idea what I've been doing most of the time.
Look, I when I got sacked from that job, when I was in Iraq, I basically, and this is all on the record in the Washington Post, but I, you know, flagged a failed fairly major misappropriation of funds at the time. And so I got walked from that job without knowing at the time, that's what it was about. And so that was the whole catalyst to me thinking, Okay, well, how can I future prove myself? How can I make sure that I can always stay in business as an individual? What does that mean, in terms of my skill, my skill set? What's missing? How do I modify that? And then how can I empower others? How can I create a business that essentially empowers others to always be encouraged harlot bakery and never feel that level of vulnerability have been, you know, involved in a restructure that doesn't shake out really well? for them? Yeah, I heard a phrase that I feel like is only really coming to fashion the last couple of years, which is that you should stay in your own line. I guess, like your that story that you talk about. It speaks of like sort of the suppression of staying in your own line doing your job, sort of not identifying the things around you that you might not agree with the learning that you went through with being sacked? Send sending the email doing all that stuff. What did you actually take away from that experience? That the standard you will pass really is a standard that you accept in your life, regardless of what part of your life that that is? And in reflection, on really on Talia, I'm okay with taking that action. It wasn't our job was to save lives. Yeah, it was life and death. On the other end of, you know, the recipients of the funding of micro finance grants or food security or, you know, emergency measures that, you know, all of that method in medical a lot more than a major organizations sending their staff to six star retreats to like talk about team building.
I wasn't okay with that. I didn't think there was any way to run an organization, specifically a nonprofit that was being funded by the American taxpayer who at the time, were wondering what we were doing in Iraq, as well as not even having fixed New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. So, you know, we had an extra level of compliance, I felt around the responsibility to spend US taxpayers money, and to spend it in the right way. And you really,
you painted the picture in the book saying millions and millions of dollars in cash will tool? What was that experience, I look,
as a reporter, I've walked into drug busts where I've saying piles of cash.
And that's just some victorious right coming out.
So you as a reporter, you're thrown into these extraordinary situations, you're often meeting people on the best or worst days of their life. But I distinctly connected that with an experience I had trop right, you know, being in a chopper going out to somewhere, walking in meeting detectives and saying just like, just bags of cash and along the wall. So when I walked in, that wasn't the first time I'd seen it, but not at that scale. It was literally piled to the ceiling. And I remember thinking, it's just going to be 10s and 10s of millions of dollars. And where's the security around this? So all of it loops, if you know what I mean. And so you sent in an email, writing out the concerns that you had, what was the thought process of clicking send? And did you want to understand what that would potentially lead to, I had no hesitation in sending an email because it was to what I was to my boss, not realizing bit naive at that time, not realizing that my email was probably being monitored by other people in the in the organization. But the email was essentially around, you know, the core of the email was around concern about what we was spending at, you know, at staff retreats.
It was more about the overall spending.
Is it a treat, like the people enjoying these, you know, this money being spent on? Like, I mean, everyone is contributing to the problem of that.
Yeah, right. And, and so at this particular context, it was an all staff retreat, where we were all bust away to this, you know, the six star resort in in Pennsylvania, and I didn't want to go because I didn't want, I didn't want to spend two or three straight days with my colleagues, and he got free iPods
didn't, we got free off, and that would have been like, 2008, or something. But what it
was, and I were big data
2000, I think the iPod video was just sort of coming into not to get too much on that
it was an exclusive thing. So you know, the number of chickens I had, number one, the cost of this particular a result because it was, you know, three $400 a room per person, 300 staff. So for me, that was fairly reckless spending, and I didn't know what the rules were in terms of, you know, when you want a 10 day, you had a certain amount for staff, you know, whatever, but I just didn't, I just felt wrong, everything about it felt excessive, and, and certainly decadent in the environment that we're in. So that was my email. It was really about that. And it was quite specific in, you know, in how I felt that could absolutely lead to a reputational process for the business, which it did. And then you look at 2019. And what's happened with the banks here in Australia,
about trust. You know, what, what do you see is like, so as an external provider I've worked with not for profits before and you see moments of like, guys, you're not doing this the right way. There's real inefficiencies. And sometimes you're at the, that rewards you based on financially because like, I wouldn't be doing it this way. I'll do it this way. But there's a bunch of they've got a bunch of stuff successes in the way they do it. What do you think we have is for our clients to be able to communicate in those moments of like, Hey, guys, these internal processes are great.
It's not about what we could do. It's about what we should do. What What should we be doing? How should we be doing business? I think everyone should be asking that question. And if, if anyone is in a situation where they can say something is not going right, and this came up at a conference yesterday, you know, if you're, you know, the question is, how can we charge dead people for superannuation face, it should be what should we be doing in this situation, that is not going to lead to you just, it's all about doing the right thing. It's so simple, but but we get so
you know, we get caught in this web of compliance and governance and, and hierarchy. And and I think that we all have a responsibility to be bold, and to lead through that in a way that is, you know, authentic to the purpose of our own work, and authentic to, you know, the the intention of the business across the wider community to really see we
just did the right thing. When you were in DC, you were covering what happened to Virginia Tech. And my wife and I were reading bed last night, and she she was amazed at the ability of, you know, a reporter being able to sort of shift or hold those emotions, which we all feel You're a monster if you don't feel emotions when you go to a tragic event. But I know as being someone who's worked on the radio and reporting on things you kind of insensitivity, you need to put it down to deliver what you need to have you found that you have that you've been you've carried over that ability to sort of shot aside the sensitivity? Or do you need a work on that, as someone who spent a lot of time reporting you now, you know, feeling that muscle that you've trained to go? I mean, this is it's all about, you know, facts and working on what's happening.
I think that most reporters would say, anytime you work, you walk into a trauma or into a tragedy, you absolutely have to in that moment, put your feelings in a box. And just because the focus is to focus is to get the story and not in an insincere way. But when I was covering the Virginia Tech shooting, I really felt like that, for me was a turning point I didn't feel like it was I didn't feel like it was respectful of people that I was interviewing, because it was such a parachute in, get what I needed, and then get out and that was my job. But that was a moment where I felt I'm not really sure what this is right. For me. It's clashing with my personal values and ethics about, you know, the general respects level I should have for people in any context. So But nevertheless, it was my job to you know, to interview people and do a lot of cross into a mark. I'm more turned up, who was a bureau chief of CHANNEL SEVEN at the time, based in Los Angeles. But I have always found a way to process I always process is plenty of downtime you have as a reporter, you have you have these short bursts of extraordinary activity and really intense activity. But then you'll find yourself on a stakeout that 24 hours waiting for Shane Warne and Liz Hurley or something, you know, really compelling like that was kind of
like I resonate with a bunch of feeling any so anything that sort of a stakeout or like I there was a time where I
was seriously looking guys.
Use cameras. Yeah, exactly. But there's plenty of opportunity to process emotion and certainly flying. There's something that altitude does, I think too many of us but you know, I have had plenty of moments. And after that trip from Iraq, I went to Tbilisi in Georgia, that was to August 2008, which was the same week, the Russians were inviting. So things were still on fire. When we got there, it was really serious. And we went to an orphanage that was full of mentally and physically disabled kids. And that was, it was pure heartbreak. There's no other way to describe it. And I walked out of that orphanage. And my phone rang, and it was my boss saying, Can you get on a plane and go to a couple, we need you to go to Afghanistan. And I said, I've never ever turned down an assignment in my life. And I said, Rick, I'm getting on a plane, I'm going back to Washington, and I don't want to speak to anyone for 10 days. And, you know, plenty of downtime, plenty of like plenty of process crying like this. I call this the ugly cry. And then there's the process cry, or the process cries when you processing whatever's going on. And I've had plenty of those days, because, you know, I've needed to through this career, and I'm sure other reporters have their own outlet. But when you when you soften in moments to where you have real silence, it just, it appears and you don't you can't fight it, because if you if you thought it, it's going to manifest in a much more
destructive way was it like opening the door, when you Virginia Tech, that first real realization internally that it's clashing with the values I'd like is it like you can't go back each one, then moving forward is same feelings coming up, just
lose a certain you just lose ignition for the story, when you land on a site, you know, it's in a supercharged mode where, and in that case, I had, you know, I had to get there, grab soundbites and fall back, but then I had to go back to drop stuff to the hotel came back. And at that time, I had 90 seconds, probably less than probably a 60 seconds, stepping out of the car, stepping in front of the camera and going live to animals in Sydney. And that was really, I was really stressed out I was it was serious, high anxiety for me, because it was blowing 40 knots, the lights were smashing over there, it was a totally chaotic environment. And I'd never seen a sea of live of life trucks that was a it was a biggest story in the US at the time at the time. The you know, the unfortunately the the largest the largest shooting number people did at the time. So you know, turn up to this, this sea of live I tracks with in total chaos, and you have to make it work and that was you know, that was not that was my thought on talking to people who are in medical shock. And that is is not the right thing to do just as one human being to another so what can I do perhaps on the other side of the camera that's going to be more fulfilling for myself and and more helpful to the people on the ground? Because that's what was happening people walking around in in medical shock. How do you stop trivial trivializing those types of situations. So So when you're in a war zone, and you have the support of security, and you've got your, you know, bulletproof flak jacket on, you've got all of those in the helmet, all those sorts of things.
How do you reconcile that, that whilst you're entering these areas, these are places where people living and experiencing and and don't have the luxury of that sort of support.
By meeting as many people as as you can. I certainly made that my business to meet as many locals who were either locally engaged by the group or were living inside the compound, because we were in a compound that stretched across about four city blocks, it was surrounded by 300, locally engaged directly guards along the perimeter. And we had a militia launching our PJs from the back fence, which literally was like 20 feet from our rooms. So it was really, really intensity. There was no sleep, you couldn't get any sleep at all. And so I mean, the state of really high adrenaline constantly. But my I really felt the situation for me was calmed considerably by meeting and talking to local Rockies and hearing their stories and what brought them back to Baghdad to restart their business and you know, how they families were and what their hopes were for the future. So we've
done in quite a rebrand
as I say, we're on the front line here and habits. But you I guess it's like I look at I love the bit where you talked about rate reds because we love a rebrand here.
That a rebrand? Well, I've done a few in my life. I used to be 120 kilos, used to wear snap backs and all that sort of thing, and then sort of changed my glasses and did a few other things. But yeah, I enjoy the I enjoy the process of having a Pinterest board. And like I have, I've actually got a few different versions of where I've done it. But there's the vision is the visual, there is the visual, right, Brian? Yeah. But then there's also the other bits to which is how you how you speak how you interact with people in your book, you talk about, you know, this sort of leaning to apologizing, you know, saying sorry, in a conversation or things like that, how much of that is ingrained in you? And it's like, I went back and say, Sorry, when I'm don't feel that way versus something that has been taught over realizing that in these situations like I'm doing this main main page?
Yeah. Well, I think that communicating with authority is something that I've learned. And reporting has been such a huge part of that. So, you know, the reason for starting the business essentially, was that I was obviously an on camera reporter no problem communicating directly to the audience. When I stepped off camera, I couldn't hold a, you know, a powerful conversation with my boss couldn't ask for a pay rise, couldn't make any legitimate compliance, couldn't communicate anything with impact. And I felt that started isolating me pretty quickly. So I ended up, you know, essentially, you know,
leaving CHANNEL SEVEN, I'm pretty unhappy about it, because I felt like I was bullied out over the course of 18 months. Don't have any problem talking about that, but not going too far into it. Because for me, what was most important was the response. So that was part of the process of me creating a program that helps everyone else around me communicate with authority. And that means understanding how we unconsciously undermine our authority through our use of language, our body language, how we structure our content, and certainly how we use our voice as well. So that for me, it was interesting that I had no problem communicating with authority while I was on camera, but in every other context, I would play small, apply myself down and I would lose out of that situation, what do you think it was always in an environment that wasn't supported, that wasn't inclusive, that didn't encourage my development in any way. And you know, news is an Express, I love it, it's such a dynamic environment than team, you know, that I will never again, feel what I did, working in a news team, you know, that it's a powerful being at being in a highly effective news team is a really addictive thing. That's why it took me so long to leave. Yeah, and it's a very, very powerful way to hone problem solving skills, or all kinds of skills at the same time. But you know, broadly stepping back, I wasn't necessarily in an environment that supported my development. So that that led that led me I didn't even know what culture what the word culture, I didn't, I hadn't heard that, until about 2014. So I was a bit of a late adopter to that to that only because culture wasn't something that was valued as a core pillar of a business, you know, in a news operation, so. And that led me to, to pulling together a program that I felt could empower other people. Because we know when you're disempowered by not having a voice that leads to so many, so many other issues. I think, you know,
the visual rebrand is what you can do overnight. Yeah, the rain breaks a lot longer is hard. And I know you talked about, you know, your core values, your purpose, like living in alignment with those, which I've heard a lot in my life, but I think I'm now closer to living in the alignment with my purpose and my values, and it makes you feel good. What What do you think if you had someone come to you and say, I need to rebrand. Andrew, please help. How long? Is that process of changing the internal? You know, Helen, what is it?
And what does that even mean?
I think we're constantly a work in progress. And I like to think of it as a purpose lead pivot. So
I do have personal rebranding.com. But I will get that to slip.
If you're paying attention in chapter one.
Yeah, I could pick up
so on the line.
So that's really about, you know, what, what gives meaning to you. And what I love about the future of work is that I genuinely think it's an opportunity for us all to, to be more connected to ourselves to the work that we do, and to our ability to deliver more meaningful work. So. So if anyone came to me wanting a rebrand, or I would lead with what do you feel gives you meaning in the workplace? And what does that? What are the tasks? What are involved in those tasks? Is it talking to people, you know, is it? Is it data entry? What do you love about that? You know, you've got to really dig, you've got to dig deep. Yeah, but I think we're constantly a work in progress, which is a fantastic thing for all of us. What about having multiple personas, and the idea of having a persona for work, and a persona for personal life? Should we be mates with our colleagues? I don't think there's any difference. I don't, I don't make any distinction between work. And, and personal. Because there's our work life balance, it's it's just life balance. And I don't know if I think it's difficult to not be mates with people that you work with. Yeah, I think if you bring a wall down, that it's not going to allow you to connect with people around you, and really get the best out of your time if you're leading a team. So I think you've got to be, you've got to be your authentic self everywhere. 24. Seven, and, and if you're trying to be anything, but that that will be a brand issue for you.
And the hard thing is, if you're working with people that you don't, you're not inspired by not saying you guys sound
sounds a bit like a retro.
When you move into the people that you hang around?
think that we are absolutely, there's some value with the five people we spend the most time with. And that's why I love being surrounded by, you know, the fabulous Belinda wall, who's my chief of staff and oversight committee, and Jen Adams, who's the most, you know, fantastic facilitator, so we you know, and that's, that's a process in itself, because you've got to, you've got to find your tribe, you've got to stick to the tribe. And when people aren't, when you feel like people aren't, you know,
sort of dealing with you, then it's okay, it's okay to let people go with love, that's fine. Because we have to do that at different stages of our career. But it's so important to be to spend time with people who do inspire and motivate and encourage you and want to hear the good, the bad and the ugly,
the movement of picking yourself is very ripe, Seth Godin, I guess where the again, Sophia, in the School of love Seth, I cannot sell something. And I've always kind of, I guess I've pushed back on those jobs where I'm working for someone, I've had my own business for many years, which is given me the sense of paving my own path, my, my future is in my hands. And I felt disempowered working in corporate structures where you know, I can't do much, but something in your book that you mentioned, was building that board team, that was the board of directors, the Board of Directors, which, you know, the people around that yet could sort of call upon should something go pear shape,
definitely. And you probably had that structure already without really having formalized it, or, you know, given it a label. But what I think it's really interesting about the next 10 years is that the responsibility for finding, securing and delivering work will is shifting to the individual in ways that we haven't seen before. So regardless of whether you're in a big organization and part of a machine, or you're working on your own, it's up to you to to make it work for you. And that involves absolutely having sponsors, mentors, advisors, people who are on, you know, on your team, part of your crew, who will give you unfiltered advice, and encouragement and be able to talk through any issue that that's important to you, I see it as sort of taking that power back
in an environment where you are being picked. But you're also picking yourself to know that stuff goes wrong, or you know, I can call on somebody we can send the troops had to get a new job. We did, yeah,
look, we all need that support network. And I was so fortunate when I I lost my job in Washington to be surrounded by a group of really intensely diligent and, and, and, you know, powerful women. And I picked up the phone and I said, Hey, guys, this is not the call I ever really expected to make. But I mean, I'm in real trouble. I really need help. And I hope I never have to ask for it again. So. And when you have built sincere relationships, and friendships over a period of time, people want to help people love to help if someone called you and said, I need help, what are you going to do, if you really respect him, of course, you're going to pick up the phone and make calls or whatever you need to do. So it was, um, you know, that was a moment that I felt, you know,
my having a network and a deep network really paid off. And it wasn't. And there's nothing insincere about calling people asking for help when you need it, you know, in the end, you need to have the right people on your team. I mean,
it's scary sometimes asking?
Well, I think it was, I mean, that was certainly a moment where I felt extremely vulnerable. I was in a form country with with a visa that was tied to my employment. So I had the added pressure of having 10 business days to find another role. Otherwise, I had to leave the country. They mean they kick you out. Yeah, you have to self you have to self manage way out of the country. But you can't say visa so because that impacts your ability to work and apply for gronk hot everything else. So I you know, it was a high pressure I you know, I said in the book, I literally just cried all night. And then I woke up in the morning and said, How am I going to how am I going to handle it?
But I handle it? How did you deal with mourning the loss of that role? And how long did it take you?
I was got it because it was such a great role. It's a dream gig and I loved it. I love the team love my cameraman. And love the context loved also being able to help people and expose a much broader audience to the issues that we were covering. So we were raising, you know, 10s of millions of dollars for people who needed emergency aid on the ground. And that felt useful. And that felt like I was contributing. So for me, that was the loss that I beyond being a great role. The main part of the role was helping was connecting people on the ground people in really, really high levels of authors that could write checks for $200 million. So the impact that I lost there was I grieved for two months. Yeah. And I moved into another really intense role with a safety or for coalition. So my job was to help lobby the US government to stop the genocide in Sudan. Yeah, so it was sort of one one trauma to another, almost, at least I still, I still felt like we were contributing. And we did get that down. We had a un were to US Special Envoy appointed to, to Sudan, at the UN General Assembly. So you know, you want to I just felt like, I'm still contributing what happens when you
get home? Like it's all quite a bit much I couldn't handle it.
It's really it's a very different environment and our members often coming home for Christmases, you know, coming home and my sisters, I'd be like, what, you know, what did you guys get up to this week? And that'd be like, something really, you know, small happened and, and I'd sit there thinking, wow, I'm really, you know, I love I just love the realness of ash. Because, you know, maybe the toughest part of my week was looking through, you know, UN reports on, you know, on genocide or something like photographs of when the first the first people who came through the villages were burned down and you know, you see all it in its total trauma, or, you know, walking down the Senate, the Hart building and saying, Ted Kennedy or something extraordinary. So you know,
what happened when you go home when you when you actually move back to Australia?
And believe that a nice quiet life? What do you take a difficult DK perspective? Like, do you still like if your Uber rates orders cold? Like, do you think about all the bad stuff in the world be like, actually, it's not all you always have to remind yourself?
Yes, someone has it worse off. And but I had a really difficult transition. I mean, I'm not gonna bullshit you it was really, really difficult. I came back the first four years, at least always thinking, you know, maybe I should turn around, go back. No, I felt really isolated. And I felt like I couldn't really, you know, connect with anyone on a level that I that was important to me, I was going into the newsroom, a channel seven doing stories, and you know, that we're pretty lot stories compared to what I was covering, and, you know, there's no judgment there, it's just that I would prefer to be in a bigger environment, you know, working on policy and things that impact, you know, people in, you know, in situations that are, you know, far less fortunate than, than those of Australia. So,
what you learn about ego throughout that time, it's just not useful.
Yeah, anywhere. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, that's part of what I've loved about being a reporter, because you get trying on, on to so many into so many different contexts. And there's no room for ego, there's no room, you've got to be able to connect with people from all walks of life at any point during the day. And you've got to be able to train between the Dalai Lama, you know, Bill Clinton, Oprah and, and someone who has lost their business in West Virginia, or, you know, a cold coal mining town. So you have you just transition between these really extraordinary levels of life and, and each one of them is so rich and powerful, and their own wise and, and it's, it's always been my job to get, you know, to get that backstory out of people. And I, some of my favorite stories are talking to, you know, everyday, everyday Aussies who lost everything in a house fire or something, you know, you showing up on the worst possible day of their life. And
there's just, there's just no room for ego. So the four years where you were feeling isolated. Now, looking back, if you were to create a list of all of the top tips for not being isolated in your career, what sort of what sort of advice do you have or thoughts you have on isolation?
I think that's part of the process of finding your own tribe, I think you've got to go through, you know, there's no shortcut. So shortcut to being content, and really happy with yourself, you've got to go through that process. And, and I certainly went through that process in resettling, and I made a conscious choice to start a business and to follow it through no matter how painful it was, and, you know, in terms of would I change anything, not necessarily, because it's led me to this wonderful place where I have have a really dynamic, small business, and I work with two of my favorite people. And the work that we do is really meaningful and has big payoff for the businesses that we deliver into. So would I change anything? No, but I think that anyone coming back from Philly exchange overseas, it's a challenge. And, you know, part of the challenge is something that you can't do anything about, it's just that Australia was so isolated from the rest of the world, and, and you feel you, you really feel that disconnect every day. But my answer to that is now, you know, taking three, four overseas trips a year and working in modern working in LA, and stuff connected with my networks. So I keep that alive. And, and I keep my inspiration alive.
We've been talking about the tribes and building the people around you. And
I love the way you said, the old school networking is dead, diver, what is for people that might not be across the different types of networking? Because I just think there's one type of networking. That's just, you know, in the coffee room talking to people, what, what is the old school networking? And what is the new school networking, I think the old school networking is something that most people tend to dread. And that is walking into a room. And, you know, exchanging business cards and just hoping for the best having really awkward conversations, what I think is going to dominate, especially as our workforce moves to a far looser and less structured environment is tapping into those German ties. So Dr. David burgers has a great line about show me a friend of a friend and I'll show you your future. So essentially, the people that you've been connected with through school and university reconnecting with, with those old timers, and because you're a qualified lead, you know, and it's not an insincere thing to do. So I'll give you an example, which I wrote about, there's a, I grew up with thumb, candies, Trello, who's so terrific, and we didn't, we didn't go to the same school, but we were sort of in the same neighborhood. So we should go night clubbing and you know, everything together. And I ran into her at an event 25 years, no, 25 years later, 20 years later, and
maybe 15. And she was working in supply chain at Telstra. And she said, I'd love to bring you in and run your program with the group. And that has, you know, was incredible, because she already trusted me, we had that established relationship, she knew what I was doing worked. And so there wasn't a process that you would normally go through that lead time and that you know, that qualification period that you would go through sometimes for a year or so with the business before they brought you in. So that's what I mean about reactivating the old times, I think that our existing network is going to be a lot more you to us. And that's a network that we don't have to you know, cold call or introduce ourselves to in a really awkward way. So, I feel like that's a great, that should be a great comfort to all of us. I think
a lot of us want report now, you know, like you meet somebody and you want that trust and it does take time does it's
not transactional? Yeah. I don't think humans I don't know, if we like transactional exchanges, we want meaning. And that's that's part of the deal. The part of this is being connected to yourself and and and having meaningful exchanges that really add value. Is there a mutual value exchange when you're talking with someone or someone just trying to sort of tight tight tight from Yeah,
the push and pull and it's, you know, the bullshit filters greater than ever, for most people on LinkedIn, you know, the the inbox is that you get, it's just like, show, impersonal.
It's it's transactional. It's hard. And so how do we utilize these platforms to do this new age networking? Well, I think you've got to map your own network and figure out who are the people who are the people that you went to school with him went to university with him? Where are they now look them up on LinkedIn, and see what they're doing? You know, and just see if you can reconnect over an alumni event, or maybe something that might be where there might be a mutual value exchange. But again, when you reconnect with someone, you want that to be meaningful, so find something, find something that's useful to talk about, not just Hey, how's it going? I know,
like, I grew up with some great people who are doing great things now. And I've and I've better those feelings of like, reaching out, they might just think this thing, but I know I've got value. Yeah. And so what you're battling this internal, you've got an internal fight happening,
where you're telling yourself a story that might not be real. Yeah. So you know, drop the story and drop that narrative in your own mind. And, and, you know, send them an email. But you might I mean, there's so many reasons why you guys could get in touch with people that always go with so
what what do you think about people who say have gone to low socio economic schools, or they're part of sort of the poverty cycle within their their neighborhood, that they don't have the support of say, those that are III or sort of other networks? How do you transition? If you're an 18 year old or 19 year old? How do you actually start to embed yourself into some of those
networks? I think that's really important. And I would like to think that we we all live in a society where we all had the same opportunity for success.
And I think that, you know, if if you find yourself in that cycle, I mean, I part of it part of me things, you know, groups like I'm the white group,
white guy was like, yeah,
so I think that finding groups like walk out, which is a community of people and a very diverse community, they're the kinds of communities that we want to be a part of, because that's where real meaningful connections have found. And, and, and real mentorship happens quite organically. So I think it's about finding those one or two communities that you know, you can feel a belonging to, because there's a difference between fitting in and belonging. So, but that is a great example of a group that's doing incredible work in the community and can be a touch point for people from all walks of life.
Well even look at rich and so land and to see, that's a good example. Right. And so I think, I think one of the challenges is the even communicating that part of like, going out and taking that first step, I think he looked at three day deal.
Yeah, he's from a intern from Canada. He's come across to the other side of the world. And he said something great, nice post that we made a video about his journey over here. But he, I think it was something along the lines of if you don't, if you don't ask the answer is always No.
Yeah. Which is
Profound, totally. And so true. But isn't that the great thing about about social that you can that there's no barrier to connecting with people anymore?
And we're all internet friends. You're actually
like Josh to the internet? Yeah, I don't know where I see.
Mr. 97, three day deal. Yes. You know, yeah, it's, it's beautiful, really.
Talking about that story that we all tell ourselves, I think that that is such a key part of this as well, we have a narrative that sits in the back of our mind and drives behavior. Yeah. So the breaking that often and reminding yourself that that story might not be it's not real and not relevant.
You're a good storyteller, when you telling yourself the wrong story? Like Have you? Do you know, is it something that needs to be rewritten on a weekly or a monthly? Or is it something you need to reread in your own mind? Just generally, yeah, I think just, I think, if we're telling ourselves stories, the story can shift without consciously thinking, we want to shift the story. And sometimes
it can help us like so say you, you finish at a job. So for the I found first year, there's a certain sort of narrative. Yeah. And then you sort of, you know, it's sort of the rose colored glasses come off, and you realize how shit the company was?
Yeah, they're not me. Yeah, exactly. You do? Definitely. You do definitely say that. Right. I've been lucky enough to work with a bunch of interesting companies and seeing the people leave, and you sort of see the process of the start of it's just like, everything's fact. And then it's sort of plateaus off to normal stuff. I mean, how do you reconcile the stories of leaving and transitioning from roles,
self awareness, I think, I think you've always got to be, have a heightened sense of awareness, in any situation, and, and remind yourself that, if as such, if a situation is uncomfortable, or if you're feeling discomfort, that's temporary, it's always temporary, but you've got to, if you're exiting a business, you're going to be good to be gracious about it. Because business is all about the long game. It's about relationships, and it's about meaningful, meaningful relationships. So you can't ever you kind of spit the dummy. You know, you've got to be an adult advantage and respectful and, and respected. You know, it just may not, it may not be the right fit for you. But I think self awareness is every and and observing yourself checking yourself observing your emotions, and, and, and often through that process alone, you can figure out what story Am I telling myself and doesn't match up with these other you know, these other things that I'm saying and feeling?
I got excited reading where you were saying about audio? I mean, it's, it's very much because we're in the video game. And now it's, you know, double video, or Tommy
a different point than I did. But we'll get to that.
Well, I mean, Gary Vee, you were mentioning Gary Vee, what excites you about the future? in general? Yeah, I guess, across you know, what, with all the research you've done for the moon,
because you've done research, you've done stuff on, like, artificial intelligence, was that right? Like, yeah, I'm a technology standpoint,
I think the mate, the future work is so many things, and so many confusing and ambiguous things like the cloud metadata, II, robotics, etc. But for me, ultimately, the future of work is about talent. And it's about your talent. And, and when I talk about talent, I mean, the humans skills, which I think will disproportionately advantages all in our careers. So you know, and I think that we have to look at them in new ways and upgrade our skills in ways that we have perhaps not considered before. So. And if you think about the environment that we're going into, you can see why that's going to matter. So if you're going to get life, if you're in a, in a gig economy, for example, and you're getting really short, sharp windows of face time,
face to face time with the people that are hiring you, then you know that then then your reputation, capital is going to be more relevant across LinkedIn, your com skills are going to be short, sharp, compelling, and sincere and warm. When you have those moments of pitching yourself. You know, you've got to be able to solve problems for a business that are new problems, you've got to be dedicated to your continuous learning. What excites me most about the future of work is that I really believe this a new breed of work are emerging, that is someone who prioritises and he's a master has a master's in the human skills, in addition to all of their technical skills, because that's what it's going to be it's going to be about continuous learning, leading through emergent conditions and all the other and the other eight, you know, skills that I've written about, I haven't synthesize this thought completely yet. So like,
that's the ethos of this podcast. So yeah,
that's the tagline. Yeah, exactly. So I'm curious to get your take on this. So the stuff around apologize that not apologizing? Yeah, yeah, that type of stuff. Even there's a there's sort of that push to don't work for free that not specifically in your book, but there's there's certain languages, especially being used within sort of, like sort of that business chicks, women in business. And what I worry about is that some of the experiences that I've had and the things that have made me personable law that has connected me with people have been some of against the advice that we're hearing to people who might have a handicap within an industry already. So I just wonder, how are we going to are we potentially create creating a situation where people are cutting themselves off from opportunity based on bad advice? Sure,
I think the most important thing to know about advice is that it's autobiographical. People are giving you advice from their own experience. And that is not always relevant or useful to you. So you've got to make that call in your own context. Yeah, it's as simple as that. And you've got to go with your gut. And you've got to rate a situation radio room, effectively, and do what you think is right. And there might be a negotiation that so you might do something for free. But in exchange, you, you might ask for something in return, you might not be a financial exchange, but there might be something you know, promotional, something else that's really valuable to you. You're there's complexities, I think, in all of this stuff, which can sometimes be missed with that advice, type stuff, you can't use it. I think that you've got to assess things on a case by case basis and figure out, you know, how could we make it work? You can't? I don't think you can ever go into any discussion, thinking, the only thing I want to do is financially benefit from this discussion. Yeah. Because there are so many other ways that you can benefit through that relationship. And
some of it too, is going against gut instinct as well, I guess it's part of it. So that willingness to apologize, or whatever that comes, I think, like, I tend to do it a fair bit. And I feel like in some parts, you know, talking about, I'm not an expert in this or things like that, when you are
yet well, I think that this this is the this is where that line is I think some people will take this advice, and maybe use it incorrectly, where it's like, I feel that it empowers me to say if I'm in a room full of comms people, and I'm specifically talking from a video perspective, I'm more than happy to say, Hey, I know we've got a PR person on the call, I'm not an expert in this area, and then going to them, but you still
have you still are an expert. Yeah, at you know, an aspect of it. And I think it's important not to play soft down by using soft diminishing or tentative language. So I don't think that you would ever want to undermine your authority in a meeting by by unnecessarily calling that out. Because I'll tell you, my hope is that every meeting I mean, I'm I'm not, you know, I'm definitely not the smartest person in the room. And but I would never, I would never say that I would never sort of acknowledge that, that I'm not an expert in something I would say my focus is this.
Yeah. So you shouldn't preface the conversation by putting yourself down. Yeah, point. Because it's interesting. We hear constantly that the US culture and the way they communicate versus the Australian self deprecating. Is it real from, from your perspective? And was that learned from being in Washington DC and having hard conversations?
Look, I think Americans generally a very direct, and that's productivity driven? Yeah. I mean, they're in a highly competitive market of 300 million people, when you come appetitive in a field and you get a job, you want to walk in and deliver in the best way possible. And that means that means communicating in a, you know, in a direct, but woman's and sienna. And that's their conditioning, generally, as opposed to Australians were in a far smaller market, where it's a bit more parochial in a sense. No, I think the greatest influence on me has been simply observing the difference between my ability to deliver a news report and then and then, you know, the very big distinction between that and sort of off camera conversations. So I think that that was actually a greater influence, and then than being around people in DC, but it was impressive and intimidating. That's for sure.
Yeah. Look at Gary Vee. You know, he's pretty sure sure on what he does
on it, since it's inspiring.
Yeah. Well, I think I mean, he's nailed that being in alignment with these values. Sure. And I think there's advice culture out there, you're really saying, set my phone alarm, you really sage advice, culture is, you know, people giving advice when it's not asked,
and you have the option not to follow? Yeah,
so and that's a great thing. But I can't help but follow the
guarantee. It's interesting, because I find myself following him for a week at a time and then switching off and following again, and, and then getting notifications, because it just depends on what space I'm in. But sometimes I need a kick on a to kick in. And that's sometimes where I'll get it from. So you've got the option.
Yeah, I think, from an Instagram, like, who you follow on Instagram, or who you consume, if you talk about that, you know, five people that are closest to you. I guess the 2019 version is the people that you follow? Yeah. What what's your method or system in who you follow and what you consume?
I don't necessarily have a system. I'm definitely driven by people who create original content and have original original thoughts. And so and in fact that why I found Belinda is I was going through in store and it popped up in my, you know, a couple of years ago. And I I remember thinking, wow, this is an operator who is
really sophisticated in her use of language and ideas and concepts. And of course, and naturally solution, because she's a brand expert at the time doing a lot of work for PwC. So I actually, you know, hit Blender up and said, I really want to find a way to work together, because that's the kind of our really valued that that original content and the ability to think critically about issues and to assess brands and figure out what is the tone? What's the right tone of my brand that reflects me authentically. So in terms of who I follow, it's, it's really whoever I'm connecting with. And I'm obviously a very, because TV very visual person, I love a strong visual, but I want that I want some depth, I want some depth in the content so that that's what really drives me.
Yeah. Are you excited about creativity as a real currency in the future of work?
art, creativity is absolutely the competitive advantage. If you're creative and original in the workplace, you will be noticed and you will solve problems. For businesses in so many different ways. I think a real challenge that businesses facing is getting new products and ideas to market in a really complex environment. So you need people on the team that can think creatively and differently. And interestingly, one of the biggest stats that has jumped out of me jumped out of me recently is a statistic around 80% of CEOs being when it comes to threat to business to their business. 80% of CEOs know that or are concerned about an availability of key skills. And when we look closer, at that data, 77% of CEOs can't find people who are creative. So there's a huge opportunity alone for all of us. And you can imagine the impact that has on a business's ability to innovate.
What do you think it's, the people are scared of being in living in that creative space? Because I don't think it's gonna make them any money?
Well, I think that quite interestingly, you know, people who identify with being creative, and 13% more on average per household, and then people who don't identify as creative I met.
Yeah, bring it, bring it.
Let's get that to 20%. So, I think that businesses are trying hard to create the conditions to generate creativity. But that doesn't always work. Because you need to have the right people who are willing to be bold enough to share ideas and content and concepts that may backfire. So for me, creativity is it's, it's where we should be spending more time and allowing ourselves to to be much more, you know, much more vocal about ideas that we have, because we all know what it's like to sit around a table. And think should I say that? You know, I'm not sure. I'm not sure how that's going to land? Yeah. You know, you had that hesitation. But that's the moment where you've got to take a risk.
I remember in 2013, reading an article that was all about around a stat that people who have nicknames in the workplace, make more money. And so I straightaway started signing off on my emails is JJ
attack to get
absolutely works. That was great. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. But what is the
what is that balance between being likable within a workplace, being the maid and actually getting shit done, and being professional, I think we have to give, you know, have to be far more concerned with being respected and liked. Yeah, we all want to be liked. And that's fine. But that's not necessarily going to, you know, get you to where you want to be. You don't want to be seen as a pushover. So I think that when it comes to, you know, at pitching or any level of creativity or contribution you want to make even you've got to do it in a way. You know, that signals you you. You know, respect.
Yeah. I mean, the signal stuff, I think is really interesting, because I'm pleasing to that branding piece. And what people are saying about you, what do you think people say about you? You know, I,
I hope I hope just nice positive things. I don't know I have. I mean, Belinda can jump in here anytime she likes, but I
I'm feeling super vulnerable. And hopefully, because I, what do
you actually want because I guess that's part of it, which is sort of like, it's uncomfortable to be like, the reason that I went from wearing snap backs and having a crazy Neck Beard all the time and wearing hoodies was because I was like, if I actually dress like a creative director, I can actually like, control my situation. Yeah, that and actually have that respect. And it's, I'm not necessarily a videographer for Hi, I'm, I'm a
creative director with positioning yourself up here. Yeah, exactly. And so I think that a lot of people are uncomfortable with that, sort of, because there is a level of it, I guess, we think it's a bit fucked up to be thinking about ourselves in that one, but you do, because that is it's everything, that perception is everything, you can't control what people how people respond to you, you can only control your own behavior. And, and, you know, I sort of identify with that, and a lot of work that I do is, is training, you know, leading ASX CEOs to, you know, to communicate with authority and media train. And so, often I find myself storming through, you know, marble lobbies, in heels and in the whole, you know, outfit, and I
think, right visually,
Yeah, I'm pretty much strolling through my sneakers and running life. And so I'm going to be really conscious of, of how people are, how that's landing with PayPal, and, you know, a great wake up call for me coming out of reporting was, you know, ditching, ditching certain fabrics and, and ways of dressing because it would be a real shutdown point, because I'm loud. And you said that coming towards you strongly, strongly down the hallway with this loud voice, it's really too much for a lot of people. So, you know, but simply by even doing something as simple as, you know, wearing flats and softer fabrics, you know, I feel friendlier. You know, what I mean? So, and I really feel like I am a very warm person, but, but, you know, I do keep a really keep, you know, we're really busy. And, you know, I've said to people, I'm not someone who, you know, I don't show up to networking events and things because I'd rather be kind of reconciling stuff on zero. This is always something to do. But, you know, generally speaking, you know, I mean, I hope I feel, I feel like I'm really true to my own brand hope, which is, you know, someone who's dedicated to the growth of others. You talked about in the book about resting bitch face. Yeah.
Is that actually being something that you have to consider in the workplace or communicating?
Well, I had to consider that when someone met me for for coffee a couple of years ago. And they said, and it was really funny, because I'm always I'm also surprised what people say to me sometimes. But this person said, she was I think she was an HR director. And she said, Look, I have to tell you that I'm, you are much friendlier, you look much friendlier in person, as opposed to your LinkedIn photo. And I was genuinely horrified. So, you know, I'm caught a photographer got a new headshot that I thought was more approachable. That was a really valuable piece of a Mac to me. So bit of a, like a lane, and
how do you how do you look
friendly and just, you know, just friendly. But I, that was a real shock to me. And I felt I was so grateful for that feedback, because she said, that is the best wrestling wrestling pitch face of ever saying I
thought maybe is not, it is not, it's not the signal that I want to send, because I don't think it's me. It's interesting, because
that is like an example of advice, where, you know, you can wear what you want be you all that sort of thing. But there is that thing of like when you are playing with in a system? Yeah. It's you have like the the Burke Burke, or in Iraq, you could have been like, Oh, no, that's not that's not me, I'm not going to wear it. That's a real quick way to get fucked up.
Right? You're gonna make your environment halfway. Yeah, you've got to, you've got to really actually made it halfway and be respectful of whenever that environment looks like,
I felt like a fish out of water in the big corporate environments. We've done work. And I've like, oh, here comes the creatives. Yeah, definitely I who's into the building without permission?
I've worked with people on personal brand. Yeah, have been in the corporate environment. And there is maybe it's something I don't understand from not having worked on the inside of these in corporate corporate environments. But what we're talking about is like, deciding how much we're going to share of ourselves. You know, I like the corporate presentation that people need to put on vs. who they are on Friday night drink? Yeah. And how do we market ourselves? What do we bring in some of that, you know, real smiley, bubbly, funny? Or do we need a sort of save face, or
I don't think it's a sustainable means to be to fake any part of who you are, to try to fit in or belong to a corporate environment. I think that's part of the discovery that we all make about what kind of culture we want to be a part of, and how we want to spend 120 hours of our week. So that's a great, it's a great place to be to be figuring that out and realize it, you know, why would you want to be anyone else? You know, Brent, Brent, I Brown has one of my favorite lines, and it's about, you know,
be bold enough to be who you are without apology. It's that simple.
Yeah, I think that for a lot of people, it's actually
trying to work out who you are. I think that that's part of it, too, is it's because in this complex world that we're in and complex humans that we are, we have different versions of ourselves. And so I think that that is part of it, which is like, which 1am I bringing to this,
and also our interests change, you know, of values strengthen, as we get older as well. And, and we want to be in a place that reflects that, you know, hence mine ditching TV, you know, at that point in time, so when you feel like things are clashing, you know, it's time to move on. And that's the great thing about all of us, we're constantly working progress,
love the book, I love that you've taken, you know, everything you've learned from on the ground, in Iraq and on the ground in DC, and taking those experiences and, and sort of wrap story with strategy and process, which is I love it's really practical.
Yeah, yeah, it's a good mix of that storytelling stuff. And then actually having tips that you can walk away with and no sign of resting bitch face, you know,
you look at that super friendly and approachable. Yeah, it was really important that we had, you know, that I had a narrative that that led into something that was tactical, and I didn't necessarily start out to write a book that, you know, had exercises in it. And it's so important for me and as a facilitator that's so in my nature to give people things that they can apply tomorrow, you know, in a workplace or in their lives. So, but it was important to start with the backstory because because they were they were genuinely lessons that I learned from from those sort of interesting incident with the with the cover.
Yeah, how much thought went into what the car was going to look like, was attempting to have a flak jacket, sort of Remington style.
He wasn't the photographer in the last photo.
No, it was
Ross copy, who's incredible. I, I struggled to think how could I illustrate? How do you graphically illustrate the future of work? Like, you know, in a graphic design sense, if we weren't going to have my face on the cover? What would that look like? And I felt like the future of work is it's an intimidating, confusing, ambiguous topic for so many people. And so I actually had a really long chat to, to Belinda enter Bernard salt, who's my mentor, and has been for many years about, about having my face on the cover. And I really felt like, as a communicator, I love to connect with people, and I wanted to have that opportunity. So so it was a really, you know, to two reasons I couldn't like how do we, how do we do a drawing that's going to that's going to help people understand more about the future of work? How do you illustrate that it's so difficult so that was really the driving force to making cool just to put my photo on and just hope for the best I
think it speaks true to your knowledge on personal brand, though, because it's hard to connect with if you weren't on there. Like my point of view if you've ever worked with you,
yeah, it's I think it's there's a few things in there that really connected with me. One of them was your appreciation of walkie talkies. Which you Oh, yeah. Zombies always sort of trolling me with walkie talkies.
I don't work half the time.
I literally brought I turned it on and then Mr. 97 I was attaching it to my belt this morning for today's show when Mr. Nice seven said no, I put it away. walkie talkie right? Yeah.
It was great. Yeah, right probably The other thing we have is the problem.
Humidity as well that hydro humidity I don't know why Bali is a good location for holidays because I having anxiety attacks based on the humidity
Look, I don't care if I'm if I'm on holiday, but if I'm working you know it's impossible for a goal to look right in humanity on camera. It's a it's just a very simple proposition. Like forget it like you've got to embrace a new level of
authenticity it's like
when I when I went on a big trip and we It was summer and a lot of places like Pakistan and Indonesia and I had some pants I go normally shorts a spear shorts guy that was a previous brand a bit that the yeah the pair the combination point out exactly a combination of the pants Yeah. And the humidity was quite a quite a
punishing in that circumstance. I was in Cambodia and and shooting a story on land mines. And the problem is is you guys would know humidity really impacts your equipment. And so it shuts it down. It plays up. It's really tricky. And that's it just adds to the frustration of feeling like you're in a state where you're wanting to harm yourself.
Yeah, it's not ideal. Yeah, Andrea, thanks for coming on the show. I shall be great to have you back on soon. You're in Sydney normally is that where you based as well? Go to Delhi talk to everyone. Hi, the daily talk show.com if you want to send us an email, Google career, see when you'll see all of Andrea's stuff so we'll see you tomorrow Guys,