Simon Taylor On Star Signs & Show Biz

Simon: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 317.

Tommy: Wow, what's cracking, Simon Taylor?

Simon: Man, I'm excited. 317. I feel bad that I haven't been here earlier. Late to the game.

Tommy: I'm actually glad that you haven't been here earlier because we've been polishing ourselves.

Simon: Oh, great.

Tommy: So now you get a better experience.

Simon: Now you're ready for me.

Josh: Well, Tommy's favourite phrase is not to blow your load early, and so this would be a good example of that.

Simon: Thank you for not blowing your load on me too soon.

Josh: I appreciate it. That's okay.

Tommy: Simon, Josh has said that we need to get you on many times. And then you were overseas for a while in LA.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, I'm on the road a lot, so I just dip in and out of Melbourne. So last week I got to hang for like an hour last time.

Josh: So, and I'm bad with admin as well, so it's a little— when I'm in charge of organising guests, yeah, sometimes fall flat.

Simon: The Google Calendar does all right. Yeah, I got like 8 notifications today. It's like, don't forget you're on this.

Josh: Oh really?

Tommy: Like, Google, I got Got it.

Simon: And then I get an email.

Josh: Are you a calendar guy? Do you do—

Simon: Oh yeah, big time. Yeah, yeah. I don't think I've ever missed a flight or like anything like that. I'm pretty, yeah, I'm pretty punctual to things. What star sign are you? Um, like Western or Chinese?

Tommy: Uh, I didn't know there was two types.

Simon: Uh, Aquarius.

Tommy: Okay, no, I'm just trying to do my own data research here on, um, the only one I know because I'm a Virgo, but I'm like, Virgos tend to be on time. Josh is a Virgo. I'm a Virgo.

Simon: So 1 in 12 people are— yeah, well, I'm assuming the distribution is even, but yeah, 1 in 12 people are punctual. Yeah, based on— I was actually having a chat with someone about that, about, uh, a friend of mine is really into star signs, and she said, what, don't you believe them about when you were born and the moon and planets and something like that? I'm like, but why when you're born though? Like, what, what's the diff— like, what happens to you as a human when you come out of the womb? Like why is that the moment? Like you're in there for a bit anyway, so why isn't it conception?

Tommy: Maybe 'cause it's like the first breath of real air.

Simon: So oxygen. As soon as oxygen hits your lungs, the planet starts affecting you.

Tommy: When does consciousness kick in?

Simon: About 5 months.

Tommy: Yeah, okay.

Simon: 5 months after, maybe that's it. About that.

Josh: So we're just unconscious before, like we're just sort of not.

Simon: You're not conscious in the way that, yeah, we are now. So yeah, kids, it's usually—

Josh: Maybe Tommy's still working on that.

Tommy: I'm pretty unconscious, guys. You know?

Simon: Yeah, it's just an interesting question. It's just, why, why birth? Um, it's just, yeah, I mean, just a couple of layers of skin, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: Affecting you. So why didn't the planets affect you sooner?

Josh: The whole moon thing, I, I always feel like whenever I'm, uh, feeling anxious, I'll look outside and it's always a full moon. But I think that that's just, uh, you're joining the dots at that point.

Tommy: I mean, I say the star sign thing, but I've always found the people who are— I'm one, super fascinated about people who are fascinated about star signs and know a lot. Like, I'm always impressed. Two, I've always found that it's not a screw loose, but like, you know, focusing your energy there of like, it's interesting.

Simon: Are you testing to talk about that stuff?

Tommy: Yeah, that's every time I say it, you into star signs?

Josh: It's a little bit of a test to see.

Tommy: Yeah, because they think I'm a star sign guy, which I'm totally not. And I just like to gauge the reaction because if I'd be super interested if you knew a lot about star signs.

Simon: Yeah, I, I, I like when people get excited about it and like, watch your star sign, like dating. I think that's a big one, our star sign. So really it's compatibility based on where the planets were when you were born. Like, I find that— but I studied psychology, so I guess I kind of, you know, uh, like, I know about personality types and I, and all the theories and the science and the empirical research but behind personalities and things like that. And that's so messy.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: So when someone comes along, it's like, no, I know. Yeah, yeah, I know because I read the Woman's Day Star Signs Today, so I know based on the horoscopes exactly what's going on with you. It's when you say your star sign, they go, "Ah, that explains it." Like, shut up! No, it doesn't. It's also like middle child was like, "Oh, do you have brothers, sisters?" Like, "Yeah, I'm middle child." They're like, "Ah, well that explains everything." I'm like, no.

Tommy: Well, can you explain Josh walking out and seeing the moon and him thinking it's the moon? Is there something from a psychological point of view?

Simon: Yeah, yeah. So that's called confirmation bias. So that's where if you were to do it empirically, you would, every time you feel weird or whatever, you'd, you know, take a note in your diary, hey, I feel weird, and then you'd write if it's a full moon or not.

Josh: I've got a lunar calendar which is probably perfect for it. It glows in the dark. I want to put it up in the bedroom, but Bree won't let me.

Tommy: Also, the confirmation's coming from his bloody calendar that's keeping him up at night because it's illuminating.

Simon: It's just a picture of a full moon. It's not real.

Josh: It's like every single, like, day has a different Moon. It's a very impractical, uh, yeah, calendar because it's actually the way that it's designed, you can't write on it. So it's purely for, yeah, for visual.

Simon: Yeah, I think it's, it's just when you feel weird and you look at the moon, you go, ha, see, I was right. But then when it's not there, you forget about it. So if you actually to, to, to, to write it out and record it— the, the one that people say about the moon is interesting for me because like, I mean, the reason the tides are affected by the moon is because Moon and the Earth revolve around an axis point. And so it's just based on the positioning of Tommy.

Josh: I believe you're the—

Simon: yeah, you're the actual centre of the Earth. But, but when people go, oh, doesn't that affect us? I'm like, but it surely depends what direction you're facing as well. Like, because if it's pulling the fluid in your body this way, but then you turn around and it's that way. So that one always was funny to me. It's like, but the moon and the tide. I'm like, yeah, but what direction are you facing? Because you can move all the time.

Josh: Studying psychology, does that mean you're a psychologist?

Simon: Uh, no, I didn't, I didn't get, uh, the, um, master's. So you go honours in the master's, but I did undergraduate and then became a full-time comic.

Tommy: So you finished your degree?

Simon: Uh, I finished my undergraduate, but I didn't do the— no, I didn't do the master's. So, um, yeah, I did.

Josh: I could tell by Tommy's face, he's like, don't know what that means.

Tommy: Well, don't you just get a degree or not a degree? I mean, these are two guys who don't have any degree.

Simon: First three years is undergraduate. Right? And that doesn't qualify as a psychologist. Yeah, bachelor. Yeah. And then, then you do honours year, and then you do 2 years of master's, then you're qualified.

Tommy: It's a fair, fair slice of time, isn't it?

Simon: But yeah, wouldn't you rather go to a psychologist who studied it for 6 years as opposed to a dude who's like, I did 2 subjects at uni.

Tommy: I found a guy that's done a coaching course on Instagram and he's great.

Simon: Yeah, whatever works. Well, what star sign is he though? Because maybe it's a match.

Josh: Did you, um, do you know much about— there's Freud.

Simon: Yep.

Josh: And what's the Jung? Yeah, is that the one? There's a book that's like the, um, like not giving a— it's not The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, but it's the, um, not caring what people think.

Simon: Okay.

Josh: But anyway, there's, it's, there's another psychology. I think it is young. What's, what's that called? Do you know what that's like?

Simon: Jungian psychology.

Tommy: Yeah, it's, um, Jordan Peterson's That's a guy that sort of model— I think is modelled off him. So is that what happens? So you, as a psychologist, you model your teachings or your—

Simon: No, I think it's just really like— no, I think science in general is sort of, uh, progressive based on previous research. So it's very rare that you just go, here's an idea, I'm going to study it. It's usually, all right, well, here's an idea, what's the previous literature on it? So if it's therapy, then you go, well, what do we know about therapy already? What has been studied? What's been proven? What's been disproven? So on and so forth. So that's the same in all, uh, science. I think it's— you go to the research, the body of research, to see what's next. What's the next question to ask? Because if you say, oh, you know, how do you, how do you, uh, deal with depression? How do you help someone deal with depression? You can just guess and go, all right, I'm going to try this, see if it works. Or you can actually look at the research and find out their star sign. Yeah, yeah, find out their stuff. Adelirian, Adelirian psychology. You just look look at the moon, you go, nah, it's, it's not you, don't worry about it.

Josh: The Courage to Be Disliked is a book, and they talk about Adlerian psychology, which is some other form of it. Okay, but when you're looking for a psychologist, what do you— we've asked many people on the show, we asked Ash Williams about psychologists, whether he'd been to one. What's your, uh, what do you look for? So if you're going to a mechanic or whatever, you look at the reviews, right? What's the process in looking for a psychologist, do you think?

Simon: Well, yeah, I've actually been speaking to my friends about this a bit because a bunch of my friends are psychologists. They completed the, the studies. Um, and I actually think it's— referral is a better way. You actually ask friends about psychologists and who they think would be good for you because they know you.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: So you ask your parents and your friends and people who actually know you, maybe even your doctor, if your doctor has a sense of you and who you would suit, because I think if you don't connect with your psychologist or don't respect them or don't have any kind of, um, faith or confidence in them, then that's a problem to begin with. So I've had psychologists where I'm like, all right, you don't know, you don't know what you're doing, really. Yeah. Or they just don't speak my language.

Tommy: So you've been, you've been to them as a—

Simon: yeah, a bunch. Yeah, I've been to a few. There's one in Sydney, um, which is unfortunate that I don't live there, but where I was in Sydney, I was going through some tough stuff and um, and my cousin recommended, said, oh, you'd really like this psychologist. And she's just so— she's so good for me. For me, she just, you know, speaks my language. We, uh, we're on the level. She knows, uh, she seems to just know my personality really type really well. And she was able to give me really practical strategies to dealing with the things I had. And then I had one in, um, in Melbourne who was just obsessed with psychoanalysis. It was like, so tell us about your relationship with your mother. I'm like, it's fine, just fix this, you know. So yeah, I think, uh, asking people about, you know, psychologists they know— I think a referral is better than a Google search because you don't know if you connect. And it's tricky because, you know, you pay what, $100 and whatever dollars to go see a psychologist for the first time, and it may suck.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: But also sometimes you need to like stick with them and trust them. So if— yeah, it's tricky, but, uh, someone who suits you.

Josh: The price thing's funny because I use it as a way of comparing it to other things. So I'm like, okay, $150, what about if I got an Audible subscription? Yes, for a similar amount, but just got Dale Carnegie.

Tommy: Yeah, you're still then relying on your own brain to work it out.

Simon: Yeah, that's true.

Tommy: With the information it's given.

Josh: Yeah, I guess that if you get the right book, right?

Simon: But how can you trust your brain to pick the right book when your brain's not well?

Josh: How can I trust the psychologist?

Tommy: No, you know what you do? Go outside, look at the moon.

Simon: Yes, it'll tell you that.

Josh: Melbourne International Comedy Festival's on now.

Simon: Yes.

Josh: How many years have you done it?

Simon: This is 9. This is year number 9. Fuck.

Josh: Geez, 9 years.

Simon: Yeah, 9 years.

Josh: What was the first room like versus the room you're in at the moment?

Simon: Um, first room was like a 30-seater, um, and it was in South Melbourne at the Butterfly Club when it was there. And that was— I don't know, I really like— I liked it. Um, it was downstairs. Yeah, is it?

Tommy: Is it downstairs?

Simon: No. Well, it's all— that venue's not there anymore, but it was on ground floor.

Josh: They're in the city now, right?

Simon: Now they're in the city. They're upstairs. Okay, so you're close.

Josh: They have a piano and shit.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's where I was. And I still love the Butterfly Club, but now I'm in Trades Hall. And it's a, you know, big old, uh, what's the word, union building. It's a union, I think it's like the trade union. And so that's, that's good, that's a good hub. There's a lot of like improv there and sketch and things like that. That's usually the hub for those sort of acts. So I've been there maybe 4 years or 5 years, actually that's not true, even longer. I've done shows there beforehand, so I, um, yeah, I think my audience knows me there, so it's a good spot.

Tommy: How many people go and see a show, and how do they find you? Are you like a headline act, or is there a group of dudes?

Simon: Well, up on stage, so in, in festival time, it's kind of almost like a free-for-all. There's like 500 acts, I want to say 500 different acts at the festival, something like that.

Josh: It's almost like the worst time to decide to do a comedy show, like all the competition in one go, right?

Simon: But it's when all the energy towards comedy is happening, right? So you get sort of the buzz of people going, oh, I've got to go see something during the Comedy Festival.

Josh: Like us with the podcast, everyone's doing it, but everyone's talking about it too.

Simon: Yes, right.

Josh: So it's not a sloppy session.

Tommy: Mr. 97, cheque the moon at the moment. This could be something about Comedy Festival, like the period of time.

Josh: I think there was just the full moon, actually. Okay, one question on the full moon.

Simon: Did you feel weird the other day?

Josh: I did feel a little bit weird. My left leg feel sore. But the, um, but the full moon thing, I got my calendar— I haven't even looked into this, is how fucking stupid I am. Is the moon the same in the US as it is in Australia in regards to when it's a full moon here? Is it a full moon?

Simon: It's a different position in the world.

Josh: Well, so if I bought my calendar— if I bought my— no, as in the day that it's a full moon, will it be that Oh, because I bought my calendar from amazon.com, right? Have I fucked it? I don't know.

Simon: No, mate, no, maybe it is, but that's a physicist question. Yeah, physics question.

Josh: I don't know, I think that's like 97.

Tommy: I get what you mean, I get what you mean.

Josh: But 97's looking up. He got a 97 interscore.

Simon: Oh really?

Josh: That's why we call him Mr. 97.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, that's really good. It's better than me.

Josh: But the, yeah, the moon thing is— but so the comedy festival So does that— so it means you've got 500 acts, you've got one of those passes where you can go see a bunch of them.

Tommy: Is that what you get for being a part of the— as like an actor?

Simon: Yeah, but I don't have— I don't have time to go see other shows because I do like a spot at other nights. So there'll be like the best of the early show, which is 6 acts in an hour, and I'll turn up, I'll do 7 minutes, and then I'll run off to another gig. Uh, and I did like squeaky clean comedy on, on Friday, and then I went and did my show for an hour, and then I did like a late night pub crawl, and then there's the late, late show. So you can do 4 or 5 gigs in a night, and so I don't really have time to go see other acts full show, but I'll see other acts doing their spots from start to finish of the festival.

Tommy: How many shows are you doing? 22.

Simon: Geez. Yeah, that's— I do 30 in Adelaide, but it's festival time. This is so sort of to answer your question, if just say there's like Um, for me, it's like harvest time. For me, to draw an analogy to farming, but we know farming, yeah, right?

Josh: And there's a lot to do with the moon, with farming. There actually is.

Tommy: Is that true?

Simon: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I think a lot of farmers use the moon as a reference point.

Tommy: Red sky at night, shepherd's delight. Yeah, that's a farming reference.

Simon: Oh, there you go.

Tommy: Perfect.

Simon: So I, uh, The second half of the year basically is me planting seeds, like creating new material. And then the festivals— I do Perth in January, then I do a week in Perth, I do 5 weeks in Adelaide, week in Brisbane, 4 weeks in Melbourne, a week in Sydney, and then that's it. That's where like I, you know, make all a lot of my money. And then the rest of the year I'm creating new projects to then, you know, sell off at the, the, the next part of the year. So, so last year was a big year, it was a run of all the festivals would have performed to, I don't know, maybe 5,000 people all up, like, over the course of the festivals. And then, uh, then worked on a TV pilot, then, uh, worked on a kids book and, uh, and a novel and a, uh, another— I did it, I did 2 TV pilots last year. So it's just like putting all my energy into creating things.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: And then this is the time to sort of like, you know, make some, make some hay while the sun's shining.

Tommy: Make some bank. Fuck, are you burnt out?

Simon: Yeah, I was, uh, yeah, January was a tough month because I was like, oh my God, I gotta get a new show ready. Um, so yeah, last year I actually burnt out. Like, financially it was my best year, but, and, and, and I feel like I've kind of planted seeds, so to speak, for other projects to, you know, uh, come about. So, you know, these two pilots could both turn into series, which would be more money and more exposure and bigger profile and hopefully more tickets. But at the moment, like, well, at the start of the year— I'm better now— but at the start of the year I was like, oh my God, I'm creatively spent.

Tommy: Yeah.

Simon: So it was a real mental struggle to get back to basics and get through the season.

Tommy: Dudes like Hughesy, I feel like they burn the candle at both ends and he just works it into his show. I'm tired.

Simon: Yeah.

Tommy: I'm working a lot. Right. It's just like, don't you reckon?

Simon: Yeah, but he's incredible though. Like, he's because I spend a bit of time with him at gigs, and especially in Adelaide because he's away from his family, so he, you know, gets time to hang out. Yeah, he's like radio and TV and live shows and has 3 kids, and he's— I think he's just— he's got that personality where he can, or where he can just go, go, go.

Tommy: Yeah.

Simon: And yeah, I, I don't know if I can— I don't know if I could do it the way he does. I think I need way more sleep and way more mental space. So I think he has a mental force sortitude that he's built up.

Tommy: Well, you sort of, uh, the boundaries or your limitations, I guess. It's like, I think with when we started this podcast 5 days a week, the start feels like a real stretch. We have built the capacity is the word. So we're stretching our capacity as we go, right? Because I even feel like, fuck, we're, you know, doing a lot. And then you speak to someone, they're like, oh, you're doing a lot. So it's like everything's in perspective, right? You look at Hughesy, he's an animal.

Josh: Yeah, I think you probably become detached as well. Yeah, like I think to be able to do that amount of work, you have to be, be okay with shit not working out or things like that.

Simon: Yeah. And I think also you get to a stage where I think Hughie streamlined the process. So he— I don't think he has to go to radio meetings. Because you've worked in radio, you know, there's so many production meetings. I think he doesn't have to do them anymore. I think he can turn up 5 minutes beforehand, do what he needs to do, leave straight away, go to the next project.

Josh: Streamlining.

Simon: Actually, I gotta say, I've got a story. What we did— he and I did a gig in Sydney at Taronga Zoo, and I flew up from Adelaide, he flew up from Melbourne to go do it.

Josh: And is that a charity thing? I feel like the only way that you had— like, who's organising the Taronga Zoo?

Simon: No, it was, it was a Twilight at Taronga.

Tommy: Okay, yeah, they do concerts.

Simon: It was really awesome. They, they had bands there.

Josh: Do you see the animals?

Simon: I got to see some giraffes. It's pretty good.

Tommy: It's because they were speaking on the show, you're getting a free ticket. Yeah.

Simon: Yes. So I, uh, I messaged Yuzi, I'm like, oh, when are you going in? We could drive when you're getting there. And I think he said his plane landed at 3:30 PM. I'm like, oh, you're cutting it fine. And he's like, no, it's, you know, it'll be okay. And then we, we get there, the show starts I think at 6:30. And Huzi gets there at 6, and then he's complaining he got there too early. He's like, oh, I gotta wait around. Oh, I should have got a later flight. Like, really?

Josh: Like, he—

Simon: like, even that half an hour was annoying to him of doing nothing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Simon: And I think that was reflective of his personality of like, can we just do— like, can we minimise time wasted?

Tommy: Yeah.

Simon: So that was, that was an interesting probably insight into how he gets things done, is that he doesn't want to waste any time.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely. You said you're the on-time guy. What's the process though? Like, because I could imagine myself getting to, you know, where I'm doing my stand-up show— not that I'll ever do one— but getting there an hour and a half early, just, you know, getting on my phone, maybe having a little bit of food, just feeling comfortable.

Simon: Yeah, that's, that's probably part of it. But when you've got gig, other gigs on, and you want to promote the show, so is it your bullshit that you tell yourself?

Josh: Or like, for you personally, if you're doing 4 shows in a night, you probably can't do an hour and a half. You can't have Nanbus running from Yeah, yeah, running from gig to gig.

Tommy: I just want a nice hour to get my Nando's in.

Simon: Exactly.

Tommy: But what about early days of, you know, your career? You, you know, 9 years ago, or say 8 years ago, right? You're a year into—

Josh: Do you think you're softer? Do you reckon you're softer at the beginning and now you're able to do more? Or do you think that you become more exhausted?

Simon: Um, I don't know. I think I've kept the energy up. I, I've always wanted to do do as much as possible. So as much stage time as possible. So I'd rather do a quick gig beforehand than just get there an hour early and wait. So yeah, I mean, punctuality is just about not missing a thing. But I like, headspace-wise, I, I think that's— yeah, I think it's just, just keep doing gigs, doing heaps of gigs. So yeah, some— sometimes I feel exhausted by it, but I'm also energised by the you know, the roll-on of like, great, got another gig, got to think quick.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: No, and, and I like that.

Josh: When you're organising your own gigs, do you have rules around how you enter the room? So Tommy and I were doing a live podcast, uh, the other day.

Simon: You guys just overthink everything?

Josh: Well, maybe.

Tommy: I thought you did overthink this one.

Josh: Yeah, well, I was like, because I was still just worried about everyone was like, everyone was coming in. Yeah. And we were just there. I just remember school productions, it's like no one can see you before the show, and so I was panicked about that. But then we didn't have music, so I was playing—

Simon: Was Venus in retrograde at the time?

Josh: I don't know, I think the moon could have been full.

Tommy: We ate a shitload of Nando's before, no joke, and we're all pretty slumped.

Josh: And so we, um, but I had my— which I found out later only this weekend that my iPhone speakers have been playing up. So, but I was using my iPhone as a speaker, so I was getting a very tinny sound, and I played the Queen album. And just had that playing on full blast just so there was some sort of noise.

Simon: Right.

Josh: But I was trying to say, I was trying to create a bit of an ambiance.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But it felt like I couldn't. What I would have liked to happen is like, hey everyone, like, all right, the guys are going to come out in a couple of minutes and when they do, we're going to start a big clap. All right. Okay, let's give it a go in 3, 2, 1.

Simon: Let's try the clap.

Josh: Oh, you can do better than that. Let's give it another go. I see you at the front with the polo shirt, bit of that gear.

Simon: Right.

Josh: When you're doing your own show and you're running the whole thing, it feels like you don't have the autonomy to create that sort of level of energy. What's your rituals when you're doing your own event? Do you hide out back? No.

Simon: Well, the short answer is when you do this so much, you don't really have time for rituals. It's like a get on with it thing. Yeah, because if you have a gig at— I'll take you— I mean, you've seen me. Yeah, you've seen me. You've, you've seen me go from here.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: And even that, it's— I'm finding the time no matter what I was doing. I think I was riding my bike and I was thinking about the gigs, or if I'm on the tram on the way to a gig, I'll be doing it there. Like, I'll be going through that mental process there. So I don't think you need to actively set time aside for the ritual and the process and the headspace. You just find it where you need to to get the gig done. And if you don't, then it, you know, whatever, the gig will be whatever it is. So it might be rushed or it might be ill-thought-out, but you learn from that and you can hopefully think back on it later. So ritual-wise, I don't really have any. It's just whatever I need to do to get ready for the gig in the time I have it, the place I have it, because I'm in a different venue, you know, a lot of the time. I'm jumping from venue to venue, I'm flying from city to city, so there's no real space for ritual, ritual, yeah, or preparation.

Josh: Like comics, comics versus comedians, is there a difference?

Simon: No, it's just the, just the nickname.

Josh: Okay. And do, when you're backstage, are there certain comics— do you like saying comics or comedians? I feel more—

Simon: they're interchangeable, I think. Yeah.

Josh: What should I say, do you think? I was to pick one, um, I think you should just follow your heart. I'm gonna say comics.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah, I was going to make another Moon reference, but I'm done.

Simon: I think comics is probably more of an industry term, so that'll make you feel good about yourself.

Josh: Yeah, so if you— definitely. Yeah. So backstage, there are certain comics that give off a bad aura that actually are unsettling when you're, when you're there before you go on, and how do you control that?

Simon: Yeah, not really. I mean, I know what you're getting at is like, what are the um, trigger points within, uh, sure, the friction. Yeah, yeah. What are the challenges in the environment of the workspace? But I think the interesting thing is that the variables are changing all the time. Yeah, like you're at a venue and you've got 5 minutes before you're going up and whatever, maybe you're standing chatting to comics, maybe everyone's on their phone, maybe you're having a drink. Like, it's— the variables are different all the time, so there's no real consistency into what happens before a gig or doesn't. Sometimes there are comics and people that you don't, you know, like around, but that's like normal life and everything. So the only thing that is consistent, um, is you and the audience, like how do you actually, um, you know, connect with the audience. And so that's the only thing you really have to be concerned about. All the other stuff about what's the venue like and who's backstage and stuff like that changes all the time.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: So you just adapt to that and and get on stage.

Tommy: It's the thing you do, you have to think a lot about, but then you can't overthink everything else around it. It's like, I see—

Simon: Yeah, focus is jokes. Yeah. So don't worry about like, oh man, what if this person's here before the gig? Or where do I stand before the gig? And will I be able to have—

Josh: This is all my thoughts.

Simon: Nando's before the— Yeah, all that stuff doesn't matter.

Josh: How many drinks you— Do you have a policy of, I'll only have a max of 3 drinks before a show?

Simon: Well, I don't drink alcohol, so that answers that question for me.

Tommy: Are there— zero alcohol?

Simon: Yeah, I don't drink.

Josh: Yeah. Are there any comics that are just full-blown alcoholics?

Simon: Uh, yeah, but they don't last very long. So maybe in the open mic scene— yeah, they die. But they— I mean, there's— I had an interesting moment the other month in, in— it's called Crab Lab. It's a really good night here in Melbourne. It's a Wednesday night. It's the Cool Room. A lot of cool comics go there, a lot of like young, cool—

Josh: do they do food?

Simon: Uh, no, I don't think they do food.

Josh: Yeah, they do Crab Lab. I was hoping for some form.

Simon: Yeah, not quite.

Josh: Yeah, like, um, sandwiches with some, uh, what's that called? Like a crab—

Tommy: crab meat.

Josh: Yeah, what's that called? What's the famous— yeah, like a lobster roll, right?

Simon: Oh yeah, yeah, sure. Oh yeah, uh, no, there's like crab rolls as well.

Josh: Yeah, it doesn't sound as good.

Simon: No, it doesn't sound as good. Anyway, so Crab Lab.

Josh: Crab Lab.

Simon: Yeah, and Uh, the MC gave me all the drink cards and said, I'll give it to the comics when they, they turn up. I said comics, I'm in the biz. And I offered it to every comic who was on. There were like 8 comics on and none of them took it. And that's actually quite a contrast to when I started, you know, oh, free drink, free beer and things like that. But I think the comics get to a level of maturity where it's like, this is a job, and like, I want to nail this and I want to be focused and I want to get— have a good set. Because if I have a good set, then I know I've got that material for my comedy festival show or for when I do a TV spot. So for us, it's like, it's, it's business time. You're athletes in some regards, to some degree. But it was, it was interesting knowing that here are free drinks, and we went, no, don't worry about it, because we, we came up being so used to getting free drinks that it's not that appealing anymore. It's not as rewarding as having a solid, you know, bit of material that we know is going to help the career and the business.

Tommy: Among the, um, the Comics League Is it a mantra to, you know, outwork the other comics because that's how you, you know, you make it?

Simon: No, I, I think in, in business in general, like, you hear that work smart, not hard thing. And I think if you read all those books about successful entrepreneurs, it's like, you know, they don't, they don't grind so much. Like, they, they think big picture and they, they, they hustle in different ways. So I think it's not necessarily correlated in the comedian who does the most gigs is going to be most successful. Like, there's so many different factors there. Are you appealing to the public? Do you have a demographic or an audience? Do TV producers find you, um, you know, worth putting on? Whether that's because you fulfilled a diversity quota or because you've got profile, you're going to bring ratings, or because you're just so unique and funny. Like, there's various boxes they need to tick and they should be ticking for, for TV. And if you don't tick any of those except I'm really, really funny or I've done heaps of gigs, well, that doesn't— it doesn't really matter. So success in like the sense of profile and income isn't necessarily linked to how many gigs you do. It can help.

Tommy: It's probably early days tunnel vision of, you know, getting your flying hours is helpful.

Simon: Yeah, but there are comics who don't— capacity, sure, there are comics who don't. They just like, they've just got this crazy personality and this great marketing image and brand, like super clear, and they'll get on the, you know, the TV shows and they're good enough, you know, and then they sell tickets to their show and the show's fine. Like, it's not bad, but it's fine. But then there are plenty of comedians who are like road hard, have done thousands and thousands of gigs, they're just, they're not appealing. Like, the image isn't interesting, or the brand's not interesting. And so if you saw them at a club, they'd destroy, but then you, you wouldn't think, oh, we should get that person on TV, because there's just sort of like a maybe a blandness to them or whatever.

Tommy: Do you think these people know that? Like, can you say— I don't want you to say a name if you're not comfortable with it— like, who's someone on a world stage, yeah, that has that rep within the business? They've come in, they haven't been, oh, Maybe too. So who's the person that's worked their fucking ass off, right, but hasn't made it as far as they should?

Josh: Yeah, what's the contra— yeah, what's the contrasting business models of someone who's— who is the— I do 5 shows a year.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: And then there's the person who does 200 shows a year.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: So they're both successful.

Simon: Yeah. So, well, there's plenty examples of that, but I can, uh, uh, I won't name names, but I'll give you like uh, let's say names that rhyme. Comic. Yeah, yeah, no names that are like, um, let's just say Comic A and Comic B. So Comic A is doing spots every single night, working on routines, refining routines, like joke-focused, almost like a bricklayer. Like, just this joke is good and this joke is good, this joke is good. And so it's like really can do 300 gigs a night. So I know a bunch of them. There's a, you know, a dozen I could name who are like that, who are just gigs, and then they will get club gigs and pub gigs and cruise ship gigs and things like that. But then there are—

Josh: have you ever done cruise ship, by the way?

Simon: Uh, yeah, I hate them.

Josh: Motion sick?

Simon: Yeah, that, and I don't like being isolated, and I don't drink, so there's not a lot of joy for me on them.

Josh: And how long did it go for? How long were you there?

Simon: 6 days.

Tommy: There's no getting off.

Simon: It was, it was okay. I had some cool comedian friends on it, so that was okay. But yeah, just—

Josh: it's an experience, uh, just like being hit by cars.

Simon: Yeah, I know, but it's just like— yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, no, almost like, oh, visiting a hospital is an experience.

Josh: But, uh, yeah, so, so anyway, so that was—

Tommy: there was—

Simon: so let's just say there's the, uh, the road, you know, the road comic who's like that and just really bulletproof great comedy set, but not necessarily anything, um, marketable about them. Then you have another comic who maybe does— just does comedy festival, just does festival, doesn't do gigs outside of that, just kind of works on the— a show, which is, you know, will be okay. But what they're really good at doing is writing a press release, and they have a very clear demographic online, and they put lots of videos up online, and the videos have lots of buzzwords like toxic masculinity and gender politics, or maybe they do a response to Jordan Peterson, or maybe they have like a, you know, a video that goes viral about, you know, whatever it is, workplace safety or something like that, that just has like a very clear demographic. I can think of a comic who just had this really amazing like blokey, he just, he got that tradie demographic down pat. All these videos about, well, I'm a bloody bloke and we, you know, did blokey stuff, and I was on the work site and this happened. And all of a sudden this niche, this market just blew up, like he blew up in that market. And so he was now selling out his comedy festival shows, this is Comedian B will say, so, you know, so his energy went into marketing and his show, let's just say it's a 7 out of 10, a 6 or 7 out of 10, fine. His audience, now that he has, you know, 10,000 people coming to see him are going to be happy they're getting a 7 out of 10. But you have Comedian A who's got a 9 out of 10 show, yeah, but just has no online presence, not good at marketing, radio stations aren't interested in talking with him, he's got no credits really, that sort of thing. If you went and saw that show, you'd be like, man, there's a 9 out of 10 show, why doesn't this person have more? Because they don't have any of that, you know, uh, smart. So the easiest way to put it, and this is kind of a little cheesy to say, but it's show business. If you don't do the business, you've just got a show.

Josh: Yeah, I think there's also something in that 7 out of 10 show, if it's done to a niche, could be a 9 out of 10 for them.

Simon: For them, yeah, the experiences. Yeah, for sure.

Josh: And so I think that's, that's an interesting part of that. With the— what's the difference between, uh, performing in Australia versus the US?

Simon: I feel like American audiences, uh, celebrate you a bit more. Yeah, I think like they're more likely to just applaud at things and be on your side about things and like, oh, you're doing it. Hey man, this guy's doing it and you're an entertainer and you're, you know, you're speaking your truth.

Josh: What's the best state for that in the US? Is there a certain state that— yeah, so you've done all around the US. How many states have you done?

Simon: I've been 22 states.

Tommy: Yeah, doing stand-up?

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: So just a nice holiday, mate.

Tommy: I'd do 22 states and I'm not a stand-up.

Simon: Yeah, oh man, it was awesome. I just drove from city to city, and that was— that's an example of being on the drive, like, being in my head. Like, I'd be going from Albuquerque to, um, uh, New Orleans or whatever, and that drive was just where I got to formulate ideas. Or driving in Colorado and there's a storm ahead of me, and like, it's stimulating. Like, it's, you know, and, and I'd get into town and then go find an open mic and do that. So I don't know, I really liked— Denver is an incredible city. I think the response there was at the club there was pretty, uh, pretty amazing. It was just like a really, really, really supportive American crowd, like you'd see on Ellen DeGeneres or something.

Josh: Yeah, I actually caught a bit of— I went home for lunch today and I had Ellen DeGeneres on.

Tommy: That's why you went?

Josh: Yeah. And there was just such a— they'll fucking dance at anything. Oh yeah, it's just like, I like— oh my God. And they said like the, you know, the, um The Billie, that new artist. Yes, she was on the show performing.

Simon: Yeah, it was.

Tommy: And Justin Bieber on it.

Josh: I didn't see that bit, but she just performed and then Ellen DeGeneres came out and said, um, and by the way, everyone in the audience is getting her album. Oh yeah, people went absolutely nuts, as if they didn't have Spotify. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there is, there's a disingenuous Like, it feels a bit disingenuous, but I guess when you're on stage, it's exactly what you want.

Simon: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think the audience is kind of a prop. Like, I've spent a lot of time in Hollywood and been at shows. Do you know Daniel Tosh? Tosh.0?

Josh: Oh, Tosh.0.

Simon: Yeah, Tosh.0 is, um, it's kind of like an internet commentary show, I'd say. Yeah, like, it's pretty— it's primarily internet and stuff, um, and he's just there in front of it, and it's not a show. It's not like a comedy show that you go to when it's like, hey, this is for you guys. Yeah, he's like 'All right, I'm going to do this bit again because you guys didn't laugh enough, so can you just laugh a bit more at this?' And we'll just do it. And he goes, 'Yeah, all right, I'll take a laugh from something else.' Like, he's just— you guys are a prop. Like, you're here, you're enjoying it. It's showbiz, great. But he didn't treat the audience like, 'This is a show for you.' He's like, 'This is a show for them, yeah, and you're just helping me make it sound right,' with them being the camera, the camera, the home audience.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What's your sort of, I guess, signs for a good show?

Simon: Star signs? You need to be Virgo.

Tommy: Denver, Colorado, there's a bunch of Virgos in the audience laughing. They're on time.

Simon: It's a full moon.

Tommy: Is that the sign of a good show for you? I guess it's an indicator, but what are the personal indicators? Because sometimes we do a show, Josh feels great, I'm like, yeah, whatever.

Simon: What? So audience-wise, audience-wise, I think it's when you can hear them. Because sometimes you have a crowd that— there's a culture of a crowd. I've done— I think my record is like 8 gigs in a night, right? And I do the same material at each gig, let's say. And how vastly different the reactions can be based on who's in that audience. Sometimes there's a Bucks Night Inn and they're making lots of noise and they're a big group and they're kind of— they care more about each other than they do about the show. So that's kind of a bit distracting and the audience is a bit uncomfortable by it. So I'm doing the same material, yeah, but for some reason I'm just just not hearing the audience engage with it. But then the next crowd are like switched on. It's like a bunch of couples, and you know, they're, they're maybe, you know, been together for a while, slightly older audience. So it's not like a nervous first date thing. And you just, by sheer statistics, just have a really relaxed, happy crowd. And they're laughing at everything— the big jokes and then the little jokes along the way, the little laughs. And then maybe just, you know, give a little wink or a gesture, and then that gets a laugh as well. So they're just so switched on to you that you're like, oh man, this is a show. Like, they're, they're really absorbing this, and I can hear them. I can hear every response from them. And then some crowds, it's just late and they're tired, and you do the show and they come out and go, oh man, you were so funny. It's like, I didn't hear you laugh. Yeah, so they can enjoy it, they can appreciate what you're doing, but they're liars. But there was no— yeah, right. But their response is, is just low energy because it's, it's late and they're tired. So that's what I kind of like about stand-up is that the variables are always changing. So it's kind of like, to answer that earlier question, is, you know, it's hard to have rituals when you don't know what the variables are going to be.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What can you rest on if you were to go, I'm going to take a gauge for every show, for a person, on a personal note? So if you can only— I guess you are getting feedback Yeah, it's the laughter.

Simon: It's really just, you know, that, that response of, um, are they laughing at the big jokes, uh, and, and the little jokes? Like, and, and are you getting a roll?

Tommy: Yeah.

Simon: So I— okay, if I can give you one gauge, it's like, are you building, um, sort of credibility about— can you get a roll of laughter? Because if you tell a joke, they laugh, hahaha, and then it stops and then you've got to start again and get them from 0 to, you know, 10 again. But if you get that laugh and they're laughing and they sort of keep giggling and there's sort of a feeling, and then you can get your next joke in, so you know that their noise never drops below like a 5 because you just kind of get that laugh and you keep that ball spinning.

Tommy: It's almost like you're getting it to flow, so you're taking the energy.

Simon: Yes.

Tommy: And working it totally onto the next thing. It's Fucking massive.

Josh: Yeah, relying on them as well, right? Like, it's a flow that's— it's like surfing, I guess, in some— not that I surf, but I guess there is an element of, okay, there's an outside source. How much choose your own adventure is there in regards to depending on the responses that you're getting? They're laughing at the digital content, I'm gonna deep dive into this social media thing. Are you, are you responsive in that regard?

Simon: Well, so some comics treat it like playing a game of, say, football or soccer or whatever, in that you know the moves, you know how to kick the ball this way, you know how to move this way, you know how to feint and to do it, you know all the moves. And then you go out and based on the audience, you adapt and you do those moves in whatever order is appropriate for the time. And then there's some comics who are more like gymnasts and like, this is my routine, I've practised this exact routine 'Are you guys on board?' But you see some gymnasts like, 'Hey, you guys on board?' Yeah, you know, they get, they get, you know, a connection with the audience, they get some energy from them, they build up an atmosphere, and then they do the exact routine that they prepared to the letter. And so there are some comics who are a little more, 'All right, I'll adapt to you and I'll do my material based on what I get from you.' And then the comics will probably— I'm more like that in that I'm more of a gymnast about it. Like, I know the set I'm doing before I get up there, but my energy level, where I direct it, who I sort of focus on, if I get, if I chat with the crowd, I'm almost building ramps into my material as opposed to changing my material.

Josh: Sure, makes sense. Our mate Christian Hull, he's done very well online, building a Facebook following, creating content. And I was walking with him the other day and he was telling me how there are comics who would look down at what he's doing based on you haven't sort of earned your stripes.

Tommy: Is he the Comic B? Could you say?

Josh: No, he's a hybrid. Some comics would say you're not a stand-up, you're doing a completely different show. This isn't stand-up, this isn't comedy.

Simon: Right.

Josh: Have you?

Simon: That's a big— no, that's the big comic, I think, of He seems to be focusing on the branding and marketing and that, that sort of thing, and his product isn't, you know, wasn't forged on the stand-up.

Josh: Yeah. Do you find that with going from the magic stuff that you do, the singing, all the different elements, do you find that you can sometimes be put into a different box outside of the comic stuff?

Simon: Yeah, but I think I've taken a more empathetic approach to that. Because in comedy, like, you're— if you're in a scene, everyone's got their own insecurities and worries. And, and let's take a surfing analogy, right? You're there ready to catch a wave, right? You're sitting there and you're ready to catch—

Josh: what's the tide like?

Simon: Yeah, exactly. And you're waiting and you're like, great, all right, I really want to catch a wave. And that's like a, you know, a big gig. Yeah, that's a TV spot, that's the gala, that's all these things. They're going, all right, I'm ready for this. I've been been, you know, practicing. I'm ready for a big wave. And you're sitting there and you're waiting, and then some other person goes by and you see, like, well, why are they on a wave? I, I should be on a wave. I've been waiting longer. Yeah, you know, I'm a better surfer.

Josh: It's my local spot.

Simon: This is my spot. Who the hell is this person on a wave? So you can have those emotions of like, well, why is this person getting more audience members than me? Why are they getting opportunities that I feel like I deserve? So anyone who comes into the scene is gonna— if you have any form of success, if you're ever on a wave, there will be people who are not on a wave criticising you for whatever. And, and I don't think the reason's always legitimate. It could be like, well, they're not a real comic. What does that mean? Means nothing really. Um, oh well, they, you know, uh, they're only getting that because of A, B, C, or D. It's a surfboard. Yeah, whatever, whatever it is. Or, or, or, oh, they're rich and someone dropped them off in the perfect spot or whatever, or they've got—

Tommy: someone towed them in on a fucking jet ski.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And you always catch a wave.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, totally. So that— so man, I feel like we've really muddied this analogy, but it is that— it is—

Tommy: I just want to go surfing.

Simon: But it is just everyone's going to have an emotional response to you and try and make excuses. And people do that with me all the time. Like, I had this big opportunity to film a special And, uh, my agent said, we're going to do it in a 1,000-seater, we're going to do it at the M.O.R.E. in Sydney. And I'm like, I don't sell in Sydney, I've got an audience in Melbourne, I've got an audience in Adelaide, I've been doing that for years.

Josh: It's a charter flight, right?

Simon: Get everyone, get about a bus, get the Greyhound bus. Uh, but I, I was worried about that. I'm like, how am I going to fill 1,000 seats? But we did it because I had a mailing list. I, you know, put videos on, on Facebook and YouTube, like targeting that. The fact that it was for ABC gave it a bit of credibility. My agent brought, uh, you know, uh, audience from their mailing list and whatnot. And then I went to Sydney 2 weeks early and just did a bunch of gigs and fly people and say, please come to my special. So we filled a 1,000-seater. But then I heard from a comic who told another comic friend of mine— friend of mine—

Josh: why are they all such little bitches? Yeah, I feel like comics are Fuckin'—

Simon: No, but it's any industry. I think that's whatever.

Josh: I feel like comics are notoriously— every time, like, if I say different comics' names to other comics, I'm always 50%— how's this gonna go?

Simon: Like, yeah, sure.

Josh: And so that's what— that's what I love about even what we're doing with the podcast is we can be this sort of like fuckin'— um, I was trying to use a North Korea analogy, but who's the— who's like the neutral source. You can't really say the US. Yeah, maybe.

Simon: Is it the Swiss? Yeah, yeah, the French.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I don't know, it's a French— so let's say Swiss. But we're just— we can have different people on and we don't necessarily care too much about the drama.

Simon: Yeah, totally. But so, yeah, so I heard from someone else, it was, uh, they said, oh, well, Simon got a, you know, had a great special. And they're like, yeah, but they, you know, that audience wasn't there to see him. I was like, well, who were they there to see? They, they got tickets.

Josh: Coldplay straight after.

Simon: They're like, yeah, most of them bought tickets, and there was maybe like a couple of hundred comps, but most of them were like paid because, you know, we advertised and we pushed it. And so that was like one of my most proudest nights of my life, and there's already someone trying to detract from it. And the way that I process it is, well, no, that's their emotional state. Yeah, because I think you could do it with anyone, pick any successful person, and you could find excuses for why they're successful or detract from them. And it's just a mental game we play. Anytime someone gets something I don't, I immediately get that emotional, like, knee-jerk, like, 'Oh, goddamn it, why?' And then I just go, 'Well, it's fine. They're living their own life. They have their own demons. They'll have their own shit.' And it's kind of trying to be zen about— you think it's good, right? But there will be negative parts of it as well.

Tommy: Yeah, it's counterproductive to sort of project that negative energy? Has there been a time? Because I know personally I've done it.

Simon: Oh yeah, but it's just emotional regulation. I don't think you're— anyone's ever gonna like never feel jealousy. Yeah, jealousy is a good message. It's like, hey, you want something, you care about this. So you can either process it as gossip and lashing out or calling someone shit, or they don't deserve that. You can process that emotion that way, or you could say, oh man, I need to learn from this. Oh, I'm jealous, so I need to, you know, focus on working to get to that. So that's how I look at it, because you can get bitter and twisted as some comics do. It was like, this is bullshit, it's because I'm this and they're this and they got signed and that sucks. And no, that's— they're this shit anyway. Like, I see plenty of them, those people. I'm like, if you took that energy of anger and resentment or whatever and channelled it into, well, how do I market? Why don't I rebrand? How do I solve the problems that producers are looking for and festivals looking for? And that's, you know, I'm gonna— I'm going through that this year. I'm like, oh, I need to— I need to change my marketing a little bit this year because I think I was too broad this year. So I felt a bit annoyed at myself of like, ah, I didn't market right this year. But I could lash out at other people. I'm like, what are they getting? Whatever. Or I could, you know, but it's just— it's personal, uh, emotional regulation and maturity. So when you hear about that clicky stuff, it's like, yeah, I relate to those people, I go through those emotions. But what you do with it is what's the— what defines you, I think.

Josh: Yeah, it's like the, um, the saying that grass is always greener on the other side.

Simon: For sure.

Josh: The funny thing about it is all these sayings are making us feel better based on the idea that what we're seeing isn't as good as what it is, sort of like it's the, uh, basically it's fucked for them, but we're just seeing the highlights, which is almost like— which is still, for me, feels like there needs to be a bit of work, which is for me in the being happy for people being great and doing great things versus I'm happy in the idea that even though it looks great, they've probably still got a lot of anxiety and things are probably a bit fucked up for them.

Simon: Yeah, I— well, I just think it's— that's really just having perspective though on their life and your life, in that you think you want what they have, but what you're actually ignoring is the positive bits of what you have. So I think, like, a good, um, fable I heard— it's like an old Chinese proverb— was Chinese farmer, um, one of his horses escaped, and his neighbours said, oh, this sucks, that's bad news. And he goes, well, maybe. And then a couple of days later, the horse returned with a wild horse with it. And the neighbour's like, oh, that's awesome, dude, you got a free horse, that's incredible. He's like, maybe. And then his son was trying to rear the new horse.

Josh: Dad's very standoffish.

Simon: Yeah, right, yeah, totally.

Josh: He's just like, why the fuck is he just—

Simon: He's super weird, he only knows one word. But his son was trying to rear the wild horse, fell off, broke his leg. And the neighbour's like, oh, that sucks, dude, your kid broke his leg. He's like, well, maybe. And a couple of days later, the army was coming through the villages and the farms and they were recruiting young men to go to war, and his son didn't qualify because of the broken leg. And they're like, well, this is great news. He's like, maybe. And it's like a good just point of view in life of, oh, this person's, you know, that this other comedian's famous.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: Oh, that sucks for me.

Tommy: Does it?

Simon: This is maybe, maybe it's actually good that you didn't get that opportunity because maybe you weren't ready for it. Maybe it's not the best time in your life to get that exposure. Maybe you don't have the headspace to handle fame and criticism right now. So for me, with like my pilot projects—

Josh: I love that fable, but I'm just thinking of the horse, like, yeah, the picture is very, very—

Simon: yeah, it's kind of cool, right? Uh, I'm thinking about this all the time, is like, oh, I didn't get this, you know, TV show spot I wanted, but maybe it's good that I didn't because I might have a better set next year.

Josh: Why is TV still a thing, do you think?

Simon: It has a credibility that I think independent content doesn't.

Tommy: So what is TV? Is it Netflix? Is it these streaming platforms? Is— as a comedian, what are you classing it as these days?

Simon: Well, I think it's anything with gatekeepers, right? So you guys can just make this and put it online without any real gatekeeper, but I think people acknowledge that if you're on TV, there was a, like, a higher power that selected you.

Josh: Sure. So isn't that so fucked up though? Do you want to be part of that system?

Simon: Um, well, you want the autonomy to be able to do the projects you want and, and have some control over your life. So, uh, you know, you're actually making your own decisions for your career and so on and so forth. So sometimes that's And a network will give you resources and profile, and— but sometimes it comes with downsides, restrictions and sponsorship and so on and so forth. So it is a— it goes back to that analogy, like, hey, you've got a big network show, that's amazing. Yeah, just in some ways. Yeah, maybe in some ways it is, but maybe if you did— like, uh, Marc Maron is a good example. Marc Maron was never really chosen chosen to be the chosen. Or Bill Burr was never really chosen to be that cool guy on TV, didn't get the network spots or the, uh, the sitcoms and things like that. So he did his own podcasting, and now he's huge. And Marin are both huge in there. They've got way more autonomy and way more control over their careers, and they, they have lots of money and lots of fans and things like that. And they have all those things. So in some ways not getting all that mainstream stuff and the TV stuff, uh, sent them on this pathway where they, they have all these other amazing things.

Tommy: Is it a forced pathway, or are you, you know, because I think more people are choosing that pathway, that independent creator, that's right, no gatekeeper, I'm going this way, which is essentially what we're doing, right?

Simon: But it's, yeah, it's, but it's just a, uh, it's a path, it's a path, it's just a choice you make.

Josh: It's based on goals too. Like if you're, you're using the idea of how do I sell more tickets to a show, how do I do this, how do I do that, and it's like the gatekeepers do play a massive part in that, right? But then there's other people like the Christian Hulls or whatever that's doing something completely different. Do you think that you'll reach a point where if the gatekeepers don't allow you in that it will force you down a path of independence?

Simon: Yeah, I, I don't think I'm ever going to stop creating. I think there's sort of— I don't know, it's kind of like for me, I, I always think this is kind of a calling. Like, I don't really imagine myself being able to do anything else than be a creative, whether it's through books or TV show projects or stand-up, whatever. I like creating and sharing. That's just part of my personality. That's where I feel most fulfilled. So the vehicle for that, if it's a network, like, I'll knock on that door. Yeah. Oh, no one's there. Okay, no worries. Well, then I'll create a YouTube project. Um, that didn't go that well. All right, fine. When I write a book— oh, that worked really well. Oh great, so now I can get, uh, a tour out of that. Oh great, now I can maybe turn that into a TV show. So it's kind of like the path of least resistance, really.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: So I don't think there's any harm in knocking on a bunch of doors or doing all those things. But where you put your energy, I think it's, it's, you know, the, the process has to be enjoyable. I think you guys enjoy doing this, um, but what you could be doing is every day spending time, you know, creating a TV pilot and then shopping around to networks and hoping that gets up.

Josh: Would you do that if you were producing the show?

Simon: This show?

Josh: If you're producing the Daily Talk Show, what would be the first, you know, you had the first 100 days to make big changes other than getting us completely off the show and you hosting it yourself? What would be, what would be some strategic things that, you know, based on the little info you, you know, about what we do, what would you be doing?

Simon: Um, I would say, uh, just more like Instagram models, uh, heaps of influencers. Uh, no, I, I don't know. I don't know the to that. Just, uh, yeah, I don't know. I'd have to, I have to think about that because I'd go to like, all right, what's your, what's your overall goal? Like, what's your overall goal? Like, who's your audience? What's the long-term goal for you? So if it were, well, we want to be personalities, then I think like, like radio personalities, you're in trouble then. Yeah, but then, then the focus is on you guys as individuals and, and selling you as personalities. But if it's the, the product, uh, of the, you know, the daily talk show and that, then you, you brand that, I guess. So I, I don't know, I, I don't have an answer for that. I think it's pretty, uh, complex. But I think having control of it and doing it independently is actually a really good, you know, a really good thing.

Josh: It feels like Tommy and my personality plays into what we're doing. Do you find that your personality actually plays into traditional television and that you have certain traits that work well with that versus, yeah, doing a video show online?

Tommy: I can't stop thinking you're just going to answer every question with maybe, maybe, maybe.

Josh: Depends on the horse.

Simon: Yeah, I think, I think the maybe analogy is just calming your mind down about worrying about all those things.

Josh: To be slightly passive-aggressive, like if I do that to Bree, to Tonight, everything will be like, do you want to go to the—

Tommy: try and tell us tomorrow how it goes.

Josh: Yeah, everything's not well. Well, just like, oh, do you want to go Sunday for breakfast? Maybe. Oh, it would fucking— it would erupt.

Simon: No, it's about your emotional response. It's not about practical decisions. Like, do you want to build a successful farm? I'm sure he'd say yes, but it's just like, you know, it's about like emotionally coping with consequences and things beyond your control. I think that's what it is.

Josh: So you're a traditional personality?

Simon: I, I think so. I think it's just I've— I grew up watching the TV show, the talk show presenters, and I've— I've— I, I think that derives from my sort of personality as well. I think from being on the internet a lot, I've done lots of— I've done podcasts, I've done web series, uh, I've done street talk, I've hosted, you know, uh, community TV shows. And I just think for me it's the path of least resistance of Oh, I suit— I'm quite accessible. Like, I know that, you know, I can have 3 generations of people watching me and all find my jokes funny because they're sort of accessible enough. Where I know some other comics who don't fit that mold, they're way more niche, and they're like— they almost suit like this particular niche demographic. They're crass or they're edgy or whatever, and they're better off online because they can find the exact demographic that suits them using the algorithm and using that marketing. But on TV, you've got to be somewhat broad. So I think I just suit TV, and that's why I, I, I pursue it.

Tommy: A lot of people fall into the, I guess, trap of thinking they need a niche, because it's, it's an understandable path to take. Niche equals audience-specific, you know, talking to them. Have you felt that pressure of niching?

Simon: I think it— I think it's a good place to start. Yeah, because I think you can just be overwhelmed when it comes to marketing or selling yourself. And in every— in every press questionnaire you get before a festival, they go, who's your target demographic? Please don't say everyone, because it— yeah, mum, it's just— yeah, right. But it's just impossible practically to go, well, everywhere, every single human just hears a flyer to my show, it's like, well, why would they come? So I think it's a— it's an okay starting point to go, well, if I target these people, the uptake is going to be higher because it's a product that they would want or an image that they connect with. And then from there it can broaden out. So I think it just— it happens in successful businesses. Amazon always wanted to be a broad retail website where they could sell anything, but they started with books because they can go, great, we will target readers and people who buy books. And, and then when we get successful, then we can start to add those things later. So a niche is just a, I think, just a practical step. Yeah.

Josh: What's, what's the plans over the, the coming months? Where are you going to be? What are you going to be doing?

Simon: Uh, Comedy Festival for the next couple of weeks, Sydney Comedy Festival after that for a week.

Josh: Whose is better?

Tommy: Um, I mean, Melbourne's like a, on the world stage, isn't it?

Simon: Yeah, it's international.

Josh: Sydney So is Sydney International Comedy Festival? Is it?

Simon: Yeah, there'll be some international acts, but I don't think it's called—

Josh: Do they?

Tommy: Okay, so it's called the Melbourne International Comedy Festival.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So just wondering, Melbourne's bigger and I get to see more of my friends and it goes longer so you can make more money. And, um, so in that sense it's, it's a bigger festival.

Josh: But your psychologist is in Sydney.

Simon: Yeah, so that's helpful. So I actually cope with it better.

Josh: Yeah, um, that all makes sense.

Simon: Yeah, and after that I've got to finish my novel, which is, uh, I'm enjoying it at the moment, but most of it is painful. I'm enjoying it because I'm reading over bits I like and going, yeah, this is going to be good, this is going to be all right. Uh, but when you actually have to write, super painful. So I'll do that, and then I'm off to the UK. I've got gigs, uh, all around England and Scotland. Edinburgh, uh, Edinburgh Fringe. I will, uh, yeah, I'll probably duck in and do some spots, but I'm not doing a fall season. Yeah.

Tommy: Is it— are you the, um, I guess it's like the, the— a lot of artists, it's a painful journey, but it's within that pain that they find that enjoyment. Is that you?

Simon: Yeah, this has been incredibly painful for me.

Tommy: It's the show.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. We're just—

Simon: yeah, this, yeah, this last hour of my career.

Josh: The Stools. Perfectly.

Simon: Yeah, it is. It's hard. It's— I don't, I don't I feel uncomfortable most of the time, like, oh, I'm not settled, I'm unsettled because I'm travelling around too much, or finding it hard to maintain, you know, long, long-term relationships, which I really, you know, I really want a companion. That's something I prioritize, um, and I try to, you know, uh, nurture, but it's, it's difficult. And then money is like, fluctuates so much, but I, I know things will, will get more comfortable financially, and I know things will get more comfortable if I get a radio gig or a TV gig or things like that. I will have some financial stability and things like that, but maybe creatively I'll be uncomfortable then. So I've— yeah, I find being a stand-up in general really tough and uncomfortable, but there's enough to look forward to and be satisfied from, and that, that keeps me going. Yeah, maybe.

Josh: Thanks for coming on the show, mate. It'd be great to have you back on if you're keen.

Simon: Yeah, in another 300 episodes.

Tommy: Well, no, we're getting our new space and it will be a different vibe, different setup, layout. So you'll have to come in to christen the new joint. What does that mean? No, but just, I don't know, hopefully it doesn't break a wine bottle. Break a champagne bottle on the wall or something.

Simon: I don't know.

Tommy: Okay, we'll just do something.

Simon: I'm just smashing things.

Tommy: Yeah, maybe we can pretend it's a boat. And we'll hang a string with a bottle of champagne and you let it go and it comes and smashes.

Josh: And we could actually have Ash Williams' feet there for the champagne. That's a callback.

Simon: Call back to yesterday.

Josh: Yeah, it's a daily talk show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email. Uh, you're on for the next couple of weeks. Uh, the Comedy Festival, is the best thing just to do it, like, book online?

Simon: Book online on the Melbourne Comedy Festival website.

Tommy: How can we find your ABC special that you did?

Simon: Oh, well, Channel 10 bought it, so they will play it intermittently. Oh, yeah. So watch TV. There you go.

Josh: That's about 10 Play. Are they gonna put on 10 Play?

Simon: Uh, yeah, just after they air it. So I think you have like 48 hours.

Josh: When are they airing it?

Simon: I don't know. The next one they added a few months ago, so I don't know. They don't tell me. They bought the right paper. They bought the rights to it for 2 years, so they'll schedule it and play it.

Josh: Is it part of a bigger— like, do they do a big buy of stuff? Do they say, hey, we've —because you're part of— what's your management called? A-List. A-List.

Simon: Yeah. So they buy like 6 specials from A-List? Yeah, I think they've bought a bunch of like the big names like Arjun Kitty and Karl Barron. Um, but then I think mine was— yeah, I think mine was a special case because they're like, they didn't bother watching it when it was offered to them. They're like, oh no, he doesn't have profile. And then I told my agent, I'm like, just tell them they could have it for free. And they're like, oh, for free? All right, we'll watch it. And then they watch it and they're like, oh, we want this for 2 years. And he's like, well, no, you have to to pay for it. Yeah, perfect. So we kind of hustled a little bit to get that through. So that was— so once they watched it, they're like, oh yeah, yeah, well, all right, we'll get it. That's great.

Josh: Awesome. Thanks, Simon Taylor. It's the Daily Talk Show. We'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.