Charlie Clausen The Aussie Podcast Godfather

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 300 with 18.

Tommy: We've got one of the OG podcasters in the, in the house.

Charlie: That's the saddest thing in the world, to be an OG podcaster.

Tommy: Charlie Clawson.

Charlie: Hello.

Josh: I think, I think that's cool. I think being— Tommy's so rattled having the OG. That's the first time you've ever interrupted halfway. I got to 3 before you started talking.

Charlie: Would you say I'm a godfather? A podfather?

Tommy: Yeah, original godfather, original gangster.

Charlie: Yeah, that's the—

Josh: I did see that there was, um, Howard Stern was talking about— do you know Howard Stern? He's like a radio DJ dude.

Tommy: If you're the OG and you don't know Howard Stern, you're no longer the OG.

Josh: But he, he talked about how he, um, started calling himself the king of all media because he heard that Rolling Stones just said that they were the biggest band in the world. And he called a press conference and said, hey, I want you to start calling me this. And they said absolutely not. Then after like a few years, people just It just started to stick and people started to call him the King of All Media.

Tommy: So what we're saying is this moment you can address everybody.

Josh: Yeah, so do you want to be the god, the king of podcasting?

Charlie: Australian king. I have to like qualify it because I'm not Joe Rogan, I'm not Kevin Smith. I'm the king of Australian podcasting, Charlie Clawton, the OG, the godfather.

Tommy: Well, you've got a fair few bloody, right?

Charlie: A few pseudonyms, right? I'm gonna have to stick to just one.

Tommy: You've got, how long have you been doing TOEFL for?

Charlie: Uh, we started in 2010. It's funny, I was talking to someone about this, uh, at the airport the other day. They're asking about podcasting.

Tommy: Is that a fan at the airport?

Charlie: Just, uh, yeah, it was someone who I knew, not through podcasting, was a fan, but yeah, not a podcasting fan. But he's asking why I was coming to Melbourne. I said, I'm doing a podcast. And which always leads to that question, what's a podcast? We still have to talk about in 2019. But he was asking what it's about and Will and I, I do TOFOP with Will Anderson and people always ask, you know, what's the show about? And that's when I always cringe because back in 2010 to do a podcast, the only reason or hook you needed was, oh, we're doing a podcast because no one knew what it was. But now there's all these great podcasts that have great hooks like, hey, let's watch these same 3 films, you know, again and again and analyse them or whatever it is. But ours is literally just Will and I get together and we just talk and it's such a, lame premise to tell someone, hey, I've got a friend, we get together, we have a conversation, that's our show.

Tommy: Well, it's something we've kind of struggled with in terms of like, you know, I think everyone's sort of guided down the path of come up with your tagline and know exactly why you're doing it.

Josh: What's your angle?

Tommy: What's your elevator pitch if someone asks you? Which can freak the fuck— freak you the fuck out and actually be counter to you working it out because you're so freaked out.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But we're slowly getting there.

Charlie: Well, our producer, uh, American guy, uh, he said to us, we were having a discussion on the show like, what is our show about, you know? And then he sent in a description which is so perfect but it's also so lame, where he says this show is a comedy conversation between two old mates. And I was like, oh no, I don't want to listen to that.

Tommy: By the OGs of podcasting.

Josh: Did you ever try and apply an angle to it? Like, did you feel the pressure of like, I know when we were doing the Daily Talk Show, if you listen to like first 10 podcasts, there were times where like, we're going to focus on a theme, and today we're talking about things that happened to us in the pool.

Charlie: I think what we tried to do— we were huge fans of Kevin Smith's Smodcast, and, uh, like when we had the idea to start TOEFL, it's because, uh, I was— Will was doing a stand-up tour, or trialling a stand-up tour, and I was following around making like a behind-the-scenes documentary. And so we had these long drives where we'd listen to Smodcast and It was just so brilliant. It was just two guys, Kevin Smith, Scott Mosier, old friends, and they would just go off on tangents and hypotheticals, and it was so funny. And they're just— and he's such a great talker. And so that's what we wanted to do. And I think in the first like 80 episodes, we were just trying to do our version of SMODcast. But, you know, as you know, you can't do someone else's show. The reason you like someone else's show is you would never have the idea to do it. You've got to do your own thing. So I think initially we would you know, try and, you know, well, you know, we're doing a lot more kind of like, uh, uh, what would you say, working blue, you know, with swearing a lot more, going to edgier topics and stuff. And then I think we just sort of found our rhythm. And what I like about this show is that we do just go all over the place. I think what we— what the feeling we try and create with our show, and even with our football show, the Two Guys One Cup, is it's— it should just feel like you've just plugged in with two mates. You know, and you can pick up the conversation at any point. And even if you don't know exactly what they're talking about, you get an idea of what they think about it.

Tommy: I think if you went in as a duo off the bat going, we're going to try and go all over the shop, it would probably not work. Yeah, but I think if you can— if you just are a— like most friendships, the conversations at the pub are just fucking everywhere. Yeah, you know, so that's what Josh and I have done. We just like, we can't help but go everywhere.

Charlie: Yeah, and it's interesting too because I think you notice it when you do the live shows because suddenly there becomes this, this pressure to perform.

Josh: Yeah.

Charlie: And it's actually the opposite of why we're doing the podcast in the first place, or why we like doing the podcast. Because, you know, Will and I have been mates for years, but we don't see each other that much. So it is genuinely a catch-up where the conversation goes all over the place. But then you do a live show and all of a sudden you're like, this is nothing, we need to give these people something, we have to come up with something to make this interesting.

Josh: Have you worked out times where you've had to perform? So Tommy and I have had situations where it's like after doing 318 episodes and being business partners now, we have days where it's like, you're pissing me off. And so we end up like, our approach has always been just sort of bringing it in on the show.

Charlie: 100%, yeah.

Josh: There was one time where it's like Tommy's like, yeah, like go ahead. We have a big fucking blow up. He's like, let's bring it on the show. I'm like, let's actually just wait a couple hours. Have you found, found that with the amount of episodes you've done?

Charlie: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely affected our friendship because if we get together to record a show and we hook into something interesting, all of a sudden we will pause and go, just wait, let's save that, let's not burn any of our material. But I think it's also that thing of, um, what we love, or what I love about podcast, is that it's not commercial radio. Like, I don't want to hear slick 2-minute conversations with a, you know, sting at the end, and then you're into a song.

Josh: I like—

Tommy: Are you saying you don't listen to Will Anderson's breakfast radio show, The Hot Breakfast?

Charlie: To be honest, I actually don't listen to a lot of commercial radio anymore. Like, I'm almost exclusively like digital. It's like with the way I consume TV now, it's all on demand. If I do listen to commercial radio, it will be like a podcast catch-up because I just cannot stand the advertising.

Josh: Did you ever go into the, uh, the the pipeline of trialling doing radio and things like that? Was that ever—

Charlie: No, I mean, look, if you've ever heard Toflop, you know it's not really like commercial radio ready. Like, but that's what I mean, is, is what I enjoy listening to with podcasts. Like, there's a show that, um, that I love called The Weekly Planet. We're actually on their, on their network. And I remember when those guys started getting sponsors, and the way they explained it to the audience was so transparent and brought you into the kind of process where they said, look, you know, we've got to pay for this, we've got to pay for that, um, you know, here's the kind of, uh, products we'll endorse, here's products we won't endorse. And because they sort of brought you into the process, a, that became content, like their business meeting, but secondly, it engendered loyalty in me with the products that they endorsed because they explained their reasoning for it. And I was like, oh, this is great, because literally anything, if if you identify with the show or like the personalities on it, then you can listen to them talk about anything, whether or not it's a personal anecdote or something that they've prepared or whatever. Like, that's, that's the beauty of, um, you know, Will always said, teasing for it, like, it's like the punk rock of broadcasting, podcasting. Because, you know, back in the day you only need to know 3 chords, you're in a punk band. Yeah, all you need is a microphone and maybe a camera and you can do a podcast.

Tommy: Did you ever get any offers to do radio, especially off the back of doing Home and Away? Uh, because you were on how long, 5 years?

Charlie: 5 years. No, no, no offers to do, right? I mean, I, I, I was at Triple J years ago, years and years and years ago. Um, I used to do like little segments there, and, and there was a sort of opportunity to go further into that, but then the acting took me in a different direction. But I haven't really had that much experience in radio apart from going in to promote something.

Josh: Yeah, I think that's what makes Tofop unique as well because it's not coming in with all of the, like, the baggage that radio can provide as well. Like, there's certain things that, like, you're not going to hear you teasing on your show for, like, oh, you're gonna— we might mention this, come the butt plugs. I know you've got something funny about that. That will— do you think was that—

Tommy: that's not a random reference, by the way, that latest episode.

Charlie: You brought this up before we started recording as well. It's really, like, struck a chord with you.

Tommy: It had, um, it cut through. Yeah.

Josh: Um, has it been conversations with Will around specifically not being radio? Because Tommy and I are always talking about that. It's like, Josh, that's sounding like, uh, I might do a bit of gear.

Charlie: I don't think we've ever had like a specific conversation about what the parameters of this show are. I think we're quite comfortable that it just will fall into whatever rhythm it needs to be. Like, I don't know, we don't— and I don't really listen back. Um, since we— I'm amazed. I used to cut all the episodes and upload them and everything like that, and, um, now we have someone who does that for us. And I think it's actually freed me up creatively because I think if I did listen back, I would probably get more self-conscious and be like, God, that was 15 minutes of nothing, and maybe I should bring something in. And I, I do find the very few times I have attempted to kind of create a bit more, steer it in a certain way, like the way Will works, it It does, like he'll resist, like he doesn't, you know, he's not gonna, he will respond spontaneously and in the moment. But you know, I can sort of feel that when I try and construct something, it doesn't match the style of the show, what we're trying to do.

Tommy: Well, I also think it's like sometimes with how often we do it, trying that stuff, like it's, I think if you don't listen back, I think Josh and I both, and you're probably the same, just like you're so self-analyzing in the moment. If that didn't feel good, you probably won't go back there again.

Josh: It's also like, it feels like there's diminishing returns eventually of listening to yourself back. If I say something that's really bad, someone will email, probably, right?

Charlie: Yeah, 100%.

Josh: What's your relationship like with the audience?

Charlie: Um, pretty good. Like, we've— I used to really enjoy going to like the Apple, uh, you know, going to iTunes ratings and just reading the bad reviews, just like, you know, just pressing that kind of ulcer on the gum, just like, what are people saying? And I even did an episode where I brought in all the worst reviews. Yeah, but, uh, Will wasn't really into it. Um, but generally pretty good. Like I think that when we've done, you know, little bits of market research here and there, you know, we have a pretty good split in terms of male, female, you know, a fairly broad range of ages as well. I'm always really surprised when someone's like, oh, you know, you got me through high school. I'm like, you are too young to be listening.

Tommy: I've actually worked out how you become classified as the OG. When someone gets a tattoo of your podcast on them. That's what happened with Tofop.

Charlie: Yeah, we've got, people have got tattoos. There's a guy who's got A guy in Wisconsin, I believe, he's got personalised Tofop number plates. Oh, that's sick. Yeah, the guy who got the Tofop tattoo, I advised him against it.

Tommy: Definitely, I would advise anyone against getting out.

Charlie: It was a weird thing too, 'cause he basically got Tofop tattooed within a bat symbol and I'm like, confusing. I don't know.

Josh: Gives him options. Yeah. Maybe. Are you a podcast fan nowadays? Like, do you, are you spending much time listening?

Charlie: Yeah, I mean, I tend to, I've got my old favorites. There's some podcasts that I feel like Uh, you know, in the same, in the same way that Tofop is just, you know, a bunch of guys talking and, you know, you really have to sort of get in on that ground level. There's some shows I listen to which I can't recommend to anyone, and because it— and I only like them because I've been listening to them for so long and I know the relationships and the dynamic. But I imagine if anyone else was to jump on, they'd be like, what?

Tommy: I don't understand.

Josh: So it's such a common thing that people say about our show, but also just there's specific ones that have cult followings where it's like you almost feel like you've missed the boat. Have you got people that are finding out about Tofop today where you get the emails where it's like, hey, I've just gone, gone back through your catalog?

Charlie: Because we, what we've started, we've, we do a letters section now. Like, um, uh, a couple weeks ago we did an entire episode that was just emails, and I'm terrible at that. That's my job is to monitor the emails. Like, I think We've still got like a 3-month backlog.

Josh: You need a Mr. 97. He looks after all of our— he went through and saw that we had— because we still, we mentioned them on the show, but we're just not good at the like responding.

Charlie: Yeah. I mean, initially I made this promise to our listeners that's like, look, if we don't read it out, you'll get a response. And then I was like, oh, this is too hard. There's way too many emails. I can't be bothered responding to all of them.

Tommy: We've made a lot of promises that have fallen through the cracks. Is that something you guys have been doing?

Charlie: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We're constantly promising. We come up with stupid ideas every week. Generally, every couple of weeks we'll come up with some idea that is guaranteed to lose us money, some like promotional performance or merchandise or something. We, for a while, we really got into the idea of being as completely anachronistic as possible with this show.

Josh: So, um, I don't even know that word, anachronistic. What does that mean?

Charlie: So a counter, a counter to what works.

Josh: Oh yeah, great. Um, uh, a bit contrasting.

Charlie: Yeah, well, it's like, it's like, well, it's like recording a podcast on a wax cylinder. Like, well, you don't really, you don't really need that, it's outdated. And so, um, we were talking once about like, oh, we forget what we talk about in the podcast so much, we need someone to keep notes for us, we need to get like a stenographer. And so for a live show, we got a courtroom stenographer on stage with this, and so she like transcribed the show as we were talking, then we could go back and cheque with her. And then at the end of that, we took the transcription and turned it into a book that we gave to people. But the whole thing cost us a fortune. Like, court stenographers charge like $200 an hour, and then to get it transcribed and then turned into a book. But we loved it. Like, that's the kind of— it's the kind of— any, any money we make from advertising or Patreon generally goes back into the show. Like, we're not drawing an income from it at this stage, which we're quite comfortable with. We have other careers. Um, but what we do want to do is just kind of keep exploring these dumb ideas. Like, at the moment we have, um, the latest promotion is we got a sticker book made up where people can, uh, take these stickers and insert us into their family photos. So if they want to be the Banksies, stick it up around town. So we had a listener write in to say that her grandparents still have not moved on from her ex-boyfriend in all their photos, and so she's going to go around and stick, like, us into all those photos at her grandparents' place. Again, cost me more money to send it, because when we have international listeners, it's like, to send to the States, for instance, it's like $8 in postage.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, we'll send a couple of stickers. It does get pricey. Is it— I mean, a lot of people now probably thinking, ah, I'll go into podcasting, make money. It's like, what's, what's your thoughts for people that have that as the, the goal?

Charlie: Uh, you definitely, you can do it, but you need a massive— like, I would say you need to, you need video support You need a YouTube channel and a podcast, and you'd need significant audience numbers for both because no one's really— it's the same old storey in Australia with such a small population. Like, the way these sponsors often work is off a CPM, you know, per thousand listeners or per thousand audience downloads. So unless you have a significant number, you're not going to be getting that much for those, you know, for those, uh, thousand listeners. So Where I think maybe this will go, or what I'm hoping, is that brand associations or branded content seems to be the most like logical alignment. Like, there, there will be brands who are like, look, the numbers are well and good, but we actually like what your show's about. We think it fits in with, you know, uh, the image we're trying to push for our brand. Because I think it— 2 years ago, everything I read was like, podcasting is exploding, like this is going to be the new thing. I mean, you know, Jules Lund uh, who was on this show a couple— was it a couple weeks ago?

Tommy: Last week? Yeah, I think so. But he—

Charlie: I remember him saying to me 2 years ago, everything that he'd read was like, podcasting, you know, you're in the, you're in the box seats. I'm like, great, just waiting for it to start raining money. But I, I think that no one's quite figured it out. Like, we had, um, a sponsor for our AFL podcast a couple years ago that went really well. Like, they jumped on board halfway through the season. We made some video content for them. Well, I made some video content for them. Um, you know, we did a live show, all this kind of stuff. And the market research they did was brilliant. Like, all the responses were fantastic. Like, you know, positive opinion of the product, you know, would you recommend, would you take a product recommended by Will and Charlie? Like, all this stuff that was really positive. But then the following year, so, you know, we thought we're, we're going to get like, you know, Jules was right, Jules was right. Yeah, we're gonna get Qantas or Lexus or someone bankrolling us next But then the next year, the response was, oh look, um, we're just— we're redistributing the marketing budgets, we're sticking with traditional media, TV and radio. And you know, my wife works in advertising, I understand that. Like, marketing budgets— it's not that they're getting smaller, although they are, it's more that there's so many areas in which you can spend your marketing budget, it dilutes. So by the time people get to podcasting, and especially if you're a podcaster who has a small audience, there's not going to be a lot of money. Yeah, to give to you.

Tommy: Jules was right, there was a pot, but now it's a tiny little porcelain pot.

Charlie: Yeah, well, there's like, there's like, there's like 17 different outlets you can, you know, release to. And yeah, you know, my wife directs commercials, and when they are doing a shoot, you know, the agency will say, okay, well, this is the, you know, we're going to be shooting the TVC part, but we also need to do stills, we also need like 60-second Instagram videos, and all this kind of stuff out of the one budget, whereas 10 years ago that was just your TVC budget.

Tommy: What about, um, when you're on Home and Away, uh, was that— because I think I, I met you when you were just starting. Yeah, was it just starting?

Charlie: I started in 2012.

Tommy: Yeah, so it would have been a year or two into that, right? Was there that sensibility then going, we're filming a TV show that is, you know, got the prestige, but we're now wanting to take chunks out of this? Was there that—

Charlie: any of that thinking, as in the budget for the show?

Tommy: Oh, so they go, we're going to film the show, but we want to create micro content So you end up doing—

Charlie: oh no, definitely. Like, they're, you know, every— they have a digital department. So there was a lot of kind of— I think actually Home and Away, at least when I was on it, was the number one digital catch-up show for Channel 7. So I think that sort of forecasts where it's all going, you know. Like, if you look at sort of free-to-air, it seems like a weird thing now. Like, I hardly ever watch free-to-air anymore, and when you do It seems so intrusive having these commercials play, yeah, like every 12 minutes or whatever it is. Like, sport completely makes sense, but, you know, I think the way people want to consume their media is on demand. And it makes sense that, you know, if your show is targeted towards teenagers, that they're going to watch it on their iPhone or their iPad or whatever. So, you know, you make those little bits of bonus content. Um, I think Neighbours did something really interesting a few years ago where they made these like short films or short series starring the cast where they did like a, they did like a zombie version.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, they had a guy, yeah, I remember full-time, uh, he had an FS7 like a camera and would go and produce, you know, all this different secondary content which sits on its own, right?

Tommy: Yeah, I'll tell you who, um, who could take— oh no, he's king of content, Alf Stewart. Was he on Home and Away when you were there?

Charlie: Of course.

Tommy: Is he still there?

Charlie: Yeah, of course.

Tommy: Far out. Have you seen what he's been doing lately?

Charlie: Uh, he's a spokesman for something.

Josh: Go Daddy.

Charlie: Yeah, that's right.

Tommy: Unbelievable. He's using his, uh, you know, flaming thing.

Charlie: He's—

Tommy: they're like releasing products. It's actually quite smart. I've talked about it a couple of times here. Bizarre though, like, that it's like taking his character and then sort of spinning. It makes sense, but it seems seems like this stretch for a guy like him.

Charlie: Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's obviously Alf Stewart as a character is like that crotchety old man. And so, I mean, they can copyright the name of the character and they can copyright the logo, but they can't copyright the actor playing it.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Charlie: So he can take that and leverage it in whatever way he wants.

Tommy: King of Content.

Josh: How much did you— that's, yeah, official title. How much were you looking at numbers at the beginning when you were doing TOEFL?

Charlie: Uh, oh, probably a little bit to begin with. Like, I think that— I mean, back in— again, this is the, uh, as a godfather of podcasting, I can tell you about the good old days.

Josh: The godfather— is that what we're sticking with? Oh, Jay, we need to work out the exact title because it's all about repetition. I think the godfather of podcasting was a guy named Adam Curry who invented it in 2009. 4.

Charlie: Okay, the Australian Godfather.

Josh: Yeah, I like that. Regional spin always works really well. Okay, so the Aussie Godfather, the AG, the AG, the Attorney General. So it was the early days.

Charlie: Yeah, so I think, um, back in those days, you know, you put your podcast out, you'd go straight to number 1 on iTunes because of whatever the algorithm is. And so, which we still don't know really. No, they— because they don't really release their numbers, Apple, do they?

Tommy: Yeah, it's confusing.

Josh: Yeah, it's— it can be gamed. It's— I don't think the charts are a good representation.

Charlie: There's something about reviews as well.

Josh: Yeah, it's moved a lot to subscriber numbers and stuff like that. Yeah, you can actually— there's a, um, if you use the CastBox app on iOS, you can actually see how many people subscribe to your podcast. And so if you want to know if someone's in the charts and you want to actually see if they're doing well, you can cross-reference Castbox and be like, oh, they've actually got no one. But yeah, there's a lot of ways of gaming it.

Charlie: But I mean, I haven't, I haven't checked the numbers in a long time because we have a, we have a producer who sort of basically handles all the back end for us now. Um, and so I, I mean, I've got an idea of where we kind of sit in terms of numbers, but it's never really It's never really been a conscious effort of like, okay, we're at this number, we need to get to this number. Like, we, we want to do what we do and make it accessible for more people. Like, part of the reason we joined Planet Broadcasting is that the Weekly Planet has a massive audience. In fact, you know, when we first talked to them, they thought there could be like a good exchange, a quid pro quo, in that they could— because their, their audience is 90% overseas. Yeah, and hardly anyone knows them in Australia, which is crazy because it's such a brilliant podcast and it's so well done, um, but they're not really known here. And so they thought, well, as the godfathers of Australian podcasting, maybe you can bring some attention to us and we can introduce you to our American audience, or, you know, mostly American audience. Um, I don't know, I, I don't know how, I don't know how that relationship has worked out in terms of have they seen a significant spike or have we seen a significant spike, but it does make me sort of think that, you know, you— people stick to what they, what they know and they like. Like, I, I'm— just because something works in one, you know, forum, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to lead to numbers in another area. Or, um, you know, if we decided to just go on an all-out assault and get like as mainstream as possible and stuff, I don't know that that would necessarily— because the show is what it is. I think for a time we thought maybe we did have like something that was a bigger idea, and then You know, with, for instance, with the AFL podcast, because that is a focused idea, it's literally, you know, it's about football. I, I noticed that we sort of, we tend to get more, um, interaction. There seems to be, uh, more— each episode gets more impressions, all this kind of stuff. And I think that is because it's, it's topical and it's current, whereas I think TOEFL sort of sits in its own little universe. Like, maybe, maybe TOEFL isn't the flagship, it's just the kind of spiritual Yeah, it's a spiritual podcast on the network.

Tommy: Well, footy fans are quite outrageous, so they're noisy. Yeah, and I came to your live show. That's right, yeah, yeah, there's definitely like an energy about, you know, sport and then connecting to the teams.

Josh: Should we talk more about sport?

Tommy: Uh, definitely not. Josh has got no idea.

Josh: Ray Walt, Hurd, Buckley. Now, who was it?

Charlie: Lloyd used to do the grass.

Tommy: He would talk a lot about Ray Walt. He's a St Kilda fan.

Josh: Oh really? That's great.

Tommy: In terms of Because you did a stint in LA.

Charlie: Uh, yeah, yeah, it's better part of the last couple of years.

Tommy: I mean, like most of the people I ask, what podcast do you listen to, it's all— they're all American podcasts. Do you think Aussies have a good shot of breaking the American market? Like, is that what's going on there? Because I don't live there.

Charlie: The Weekly Planet has definitely done that.

Tommy: How the hell have they done it?

Charlie: And I think it's— well, it's because it's a, it's a movie geek podcast, and that's huge business. Like, the geeks have inherited the earth. Like, that's You talk about like comic books and comic book movies and TV and, you know, Game of Thrones, all that kind of stuff. Like, that is so huge right now. You can go on YouTube right now and there's like 50 video essays about the breaking down the latest Game of Thrones trailer. Yeah, I mean, I came across the Weekly Planet that exact way, is I just found one of their YouTube videos, thought it was really good, and then they advertise their podcast and listen to the podcast. And it was kind of funny when we first met with them to have that discussion around, well, maybe we can help you, maybe you can help us. And we exchanged like download numbers. We were like, holy shit, like really? I mean, I think you could go on YouTube, they get like 5 million downloads a month for their YouTube videos.

Tommy: Well, 1% of the American population is a lot more than ours.

Charlie: Yeah, so they definitely have a breakthrough. And the audiences do— the, the fact that they're Australian doesn't seem to be like— it doesn't inhibit people's enjoyment of it because they know their shit. And you know, that's the other thing about sort of like fan if you're, if you're, if you are doing a show that is fan orientated, people will sniff out if you are not a real fan. But these guys know their shit, and so I think that, that their, their, um, credentials are on display with every episode.

Tommy: Ash Williams, who we had on this, this week, yeah, this week, he gave, uh, LA a bit of a crack. Do you think there's, as an Aussie going to LA, like now you go, there's heaps of Aussies Do you think there's still, uh, weight in the Aussie in LA? Where's Ash fucked it with the two grandios and working at that, uh, topless jelly shot bar?

Charlie: Jelly shot bar, yeah, story. Uh, I, I, look, I think we're— our first time I went to LA was in 2007, and you were definitely much more exotic back then. Um, now that there's so many Australians in with high profiles over there, I think it's a bit less of a, of a, uh, an attraction. But it works both ways because Australians have a great reputation over there as both being talented but also hardworking. And I think that's a product of coming from a tiny industry where, you know, you've got to fight and scrap for every opportunity you get. And so those two attributes hold you in good stead.

Josh: Great baristas as well.

Charlie: Great baristas.

Tommy: Yeah, Aussies are.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that when we were in LA, there was a lot of Aussies.

Tommy: Well, the good coffee joints in New York are run by Aussies.

Charlie: Yeah.

Josh: Did you— is consistency an important part of this whole equation?

Charlie: Yes, 100%. I mean, I think that's the one thing that we've done better than anything else content-wise on the show is we put it out a lot, um, you know, and especially considering, you know, Will and I have spent large periods of time overseas, we've managed to just like Skype in and do it. So even when it's been really challenging And it's much better when we're in the same room, easily. Like, you know, but that just is not possible. We live in different states now. Um, like I said, for the last 4 or 5 years, at least one of us was based in LA. So, you know, we're trying to get the time zones lined up. And I even remember doing a show, uh, travelling between LA and London last year and getting to my hotel, and it was like, you know, 1 in the morning, and I'm getting up to do this show, and the hotel internet connection was shit. And like, he kept dropping out, and we just like struggled through this whole episode. And then I was like, what are we doing? Like, this is a fake radio show. Like, I mean, I, I'm— I know people love it, but it's like, what are we doing? But then what else would I be doing? Yeah, like, I, I like it, and I think that it sort of keeps— you got to keep the blade sharp. Like, I think that I, I, I want to— I want to be doing this, and, and the, the financial opportunities, or where it might lead to career-wise is sort of, you've got to put that out of your mind a bit. And if we often— and we're often very honest when we talk about it, like, look, if this gets too hard or if, you know, the benefits are no longer there, or it's just like it's too much of a hassle, then we can let it go. Like, that's the thing you have to sort of, sort of weigh up. But it hasn't, you know, I don't feel we've been close to that yet.

Tommy: Yeah, what's the worst that can come from it and what's the exact best that can come from it? I think you've been— from what I can see, I looked on YouTube last night, I found this film you wrote and directed, Fired.

Charlie: Oh my, no, I didn't write it.

Tommy: You didn't?

Charlie: I did, yes. Sorry, that was 15 years ago, right? I think the editor, uh, I think the editor put that, upload that to YouTube without my permission.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I found it and it's on YouTube, but don't look at it. So that was 15 years ago.

Charlie: 15 years ago, yeah.

Tommy: Which, I mean, I think it was uploaded 15 years ago or something like that.

Charlie: Yeah, by an editor again who did not have permission.

Josh: I'm sure Game of Thrones have that all the time, just the editors.

Tommy: What I love about it though is I see you, and in that was Chris Lilley, yeah, and Roger Corser, yeah, and Brian Johnson. These are people who are, you know, yeah, up there in the Australian media landscape.

Josh: And I'm doing a, uh, daily show.

Tommy: No, but you're doing it too, you know, all the things you've done. But it's like, I love seeing that, um, piece of history of Australian people who are still now working that were doing it then, doing it for free then. So it's like, you've got to have a passion, you've got to have a love for it, because there's a whole bunch of stuff you've got to do where you're not getting the monetary reward.

Charlie: And I think, I think having a blue-collar attitude towards a creative pursuit, yeah, is the best combination. I think that's why Australians do do well in LA. It's like, I mean, we don't have big trailers. Like, even when, you know, I've worked on big TV shows and like, you're still getting changed in like a broom cupboard with no privacy. I've never seen—

Josh: so like, it doesn't romanticise it. I remember filming something at Conan's set, and you have this idea of what you think it is, but it's essentially caravans. Yeah. With just like— it's not that aspirational once you actually get up close and you knock on the wood.

Charlie: And yeah, and I think too that if you have this idea that, you know, showbiz has some kind of, uh, what's the word, like, um, um, you get some cachet over and well, you're going to be really disappointed.

Tommy: Like, you know, unless you're seeing Alf Stewart's trailer.

Charlie: Well, you mean it's like that— how often have you heard about someone going, oh, I met a comedian in real life, oh, he was really serious, or he's really quiet? It's like, yeah, because it's a fucking joke. Yeah, like, he's not going to be on all the time. And I think if you go into a job like this thinking, oh, it's all just going to be like fun, and then you're crazy because it's, it's still a job. And I think the people You know, to your point, I guess the people who have gone on are the ones who, yeah, will front up to do a short film that a mate of theirs has thrown together, you know, for no money. And the same— they have the same attitude and level of professionalism as if they were working with, like, you know, Steven Spielberg. And, you know, that's kind of my philosophy is when— I don't think I've ever turned down when someone's requested I do, uh, can you be on my podcast? I don't, I don't think I've ever turned it down because I'm always like, well, what's the worst that could happen?

Tommy: Yeah.

Charlie: You know, it can be a train. Cut to me being kidnapped by some Stan type. The Daily Talk Show. Bag him, bag him.

Josh: We normally do that at the 45-minute mark. Um, have you ever made any big life decisions based on the podcast?

Tommy: Uh, eloping.

Josh: Didn't you elope?

Tommy: Yeah, but content?

Josh: Well, I just like— no, no, no, I mean like, you know, there are things that I travelled for 3 months and Tommy and I still did the podcast, right? So every single morning when I was in Europe, I had 4G. So I probably spent $1,500 on 4G SIM cards wherever I went.

Tommy: Like, no joke.

Charlie: But I know exactly what you're talking about.

Josh: I justified it. And so, and you know, just being, yeah, in all different parts and realising that this is, this is actually like consumed my life. But then my girlfriend Bree's like I don't want you to stop because I— even though I'm in pain in those moments, I know that it's like, it's actually what I want to do. And if I— the reason I'm in pain is because I just want to get it out. Yeah, that makes sense. So what is there— have there been things where it's like you have actually made— you've turned things down, or you've said, oh, maybe I will? Have you ever thought, maybe I'll go here so I'm in the same spot as Will so we can do the show?

Charlie: Yeah, like, I mean, I think we've both made sacrifices. Like, when, um, LA Podfest was still a thing, uh, Will and I both flew out to LA for our weekend to do the live show. I mean, not at the same time. There was one year when he was living in LA and I was doing Home and Away. I literally finished work on Friday morning, jumped on a plane, flew to LA, did the show, uh, Saturday night LA time, went straight from the show to the airport, back on the plane, flew back to Sydney and went to work again on a Monday. So amazing, did LA in 24 hours. And Will had done the same thing and we were losing money on that. That was like a, you know, $1,500 airfare. But we just sort of felt like, well, let's do it. I mean, because this may never happen again. Like, this may be the only opportunity we have to do something like that. And if you're not making money from it, then why else are you doing it if not for the experience?

Josh: Yeah.

Charlie: You know, or to have the conversation. And, you know, I also think that it's too late to, to be conservative now, you know what I mean? Like, we're all in. Like, what are you going to do? You either shut it down or you just keep pursuing these things.

Josh: Did you have a break from Tofop while you were doing Home and Away?

Charlie: Yeah, so when I started, um, on Home and Away, there was sort of— I mean, I don't know what I'm allowed to say. No one listens, so yeah, there was just some, there was just some concerns about the fact that, you know, Tofop can be adult content, and now I was on this very family-friendly show, and so they asked that I stop doing it, which, you know, I talked to Will about and we weren't happy about it, but it was like, okay, this is a new job and I, you know, I want to make a good impression. And so we did that. And then it's actually Jules Lund, of all people, who when I told him about it was like, who said you couldn't do it? And I said, oh, you know, Channel 7. And he's like, who at Channel 7? I was like, I don't know. He's like, well, why don't you find out who and go talk to them?

Josh: And it was the best bit of advice because it was a social media coordinator or some shit or some fucking Well, you just, you just hear—

Tommy: Fucking Alf Stewart, king of context.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Charlie: Well, you just hear no.

Josh: Knocking you down.

Charlie: You just hear no and you're like, oh well, they've just said no. And in your head it's like this big faceless— but then, you know, there was a person who made the decision and I want to spoke to them and explained my position, which was like, look, um, you know, I don't think that there's going to be, you know, any kind of like crossover. I don't think anyone's going to be scarred from going from one show to the other. If anything, you may get more curious people wanting to cheque out both sides. Exactly. Um, And once that— I had that conversation, it was like, yeah, go for it. And so we got up and running. And to be honest, I think actually having that break probably helped the show a bit because it sort of allowed us to go off. Like, Will went off and created Faux Fop, which is, you know, Tofop without Charlie, and enabled me just to focus on this new job because my hours were all over the place. And, you know, maybe it would have been a bit too stressful having the two things going at once. Um, and it also gave us— like, it added to the mythology of this show. Like, that's what we You know, we often talk about, you know, when something like that happens, it gives you like hours and hours of content to talk about, but it also is part of the story. And so when we decided— when, when we got the green light to do the show again, it— we, we able to sort of do this really cool build for a couple of months, like just dropping hints that, you know, what's going to happen, the show's coming back. And so just sort of, it's another way of bringing the audience back into it.

Josh: Did you feel like you had, had framed them as the man? Were they that, like, Yeah, well, I mean, I, I kind of—

Charlie: it wasn't a case of like, um, they were the villain. Like, we— when we did our last episode before we took a break, you know, we sort of explained what had happened and it's like, we completely understand their point of view. Like, you know, they're protecting their product just like you would protect your product. Um, you know, we were disappointed that they, they, they, they thought the way they did, but it wasn't a case of like I mean, I could say no, you know, that's the thing. It's like no one had a gun to my head. It was a choice that I made.

Josh: Was it a moment for you to reflect? Because maybe in those moments I feel like we can dip between, say, old school media and new school media and the different sort of schools that they both have. Yeah. Did you feel like it was a learning from you to be like, actually, if I believe in this and this is going to be the thing, someone shouldn't be able to tell me Yeah, but I also wanted to pay my rent.

Tommy: Had you been working towards getting something like, you know, a full-time acting role like Home and Away? Like, they want some— two of the shows, Home and Away, Neighbours, like, me— four actors in Australia can work 5 days a week.

Charlie: Exactly.

Tommy: Doing your craft.

Charlie: Is it 100%?

Tommy: Is it what you were sort of aiming for?

Charlie: No, like, I hadn't— it wasn't like I was aiming for it. I'd had Home and Away come knocking a couple times before that, and I'd sort of turned them down because it just I was doing other stuff or I just wasn't interested. But at the time that they came back, it was, was settled in Sydney, um, you know, my wife was getting her advertising career going, so it just felt like the right fit. And I'm really glad I did it. Like, I have nothing but good things to say about Home and Away. It was one of the best jobs I've ever had, um, you know, still got lots of friends from that show, um, and in the end turned out to have a lot of flexibility to do what I wanted to do. But I think it's like any new job is like No one is going to hire you if you say, oh, by the way, I actually have this other thing which is my real passion and I'm going to be doing that. Yeah, like you've got to front up and justify your paycheck.

Tommy: All you have to call it now is a side hustle and everyone's cool with it. Yeah, everyone needs a side hustle.

Charlie: I mean, and it is kind of a weird thing too because there are a lot of actors on the show who do have side hustles who, you know, they'll either do endorsements or they'll do hosting or they'll do all kinds of other things like that. But again, it's more about showing that you're going to be professional, you're going to turn up on time, focused, you know, know your shit back to front. So once you establish that, then I think any reasonable employer is like, okay, well, yeah, you can start, you know, diversifying.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, what, what's opened more doors, Home and Away or TOEFL?

Charlie: Um, that's a good question. I like— it's so completely different. Like, Home and Away in terms of acting, gives you great visibility. You know, you go to the States and, you know, all the management agents know about it because obviously people like, you know, Chris Hemsworth and Ryan Quenton have been through that factory. So that's one benefit. But TOFOP in terms of unexpected opportunities has been really great because, you know, not only through stuff we've pursued ourselves, but the people who approach us. Like, we're approached by a publisher about making YA. Uh, no, is it— yeah, young— what, young adult fiction?

Josh: Is that okay? Yeah, that could sound about right.

Charlie: Yeah. Um, I thought they wanted us to write a children's book, which I thought would be hilarious, but they're like— this publisher was like, I think you guys would appeal, you know, to young men. Um, so, you know, have you— would love to have a conversation with you about like some book ideas, which we talked about on the show and then never did anything about.

Josh: There's good content though.

Charlie: Yeah, it's great content. I mean, I, I love the idea, um, I love the idea that, you know, if TOEFL never grows beyond what TOEFL is, you know, the audience we have now, and we're just constantly doing it down the line or in Will's spare room or whatever it is, if that's what the show stays, I do like the idea that there can be some associated product that spins out of it. Yeah, that, you know, um, you know, for instance, uh, the guy, uh, the guy James Vostak is our resident artist. He does all our episode artwork, he does Will's tour posters, he's a brilliant artist. And he and I have been writing a comic book together, and, you know, we've released kind of like 6 issues of this like mini comic book. And that has all stemmed out of a conversation we had on the show. And so I went to visit him at his studio in Adelaide, and that's just something that I would not have thought of 4 years ago, you know, being a comic book writer. And it's been really great. And now you look at that, it's like, okay, well, can this comic book be turned into something else? And, you know, I love it when people send us, like, you know, their art inspired by the show, or like fiction inspired by the show, all that kind of stuff, because, you know, I'm gonna steal from them.

Tommy: I love, I love looking at podcasts as the mechanism to do, and then from the doing comes these opportunities like you're saying. So it's like that constantly showing up is— something has to happen. It might not be the, you know, the big thing.

Josh: Something has to fucking—

Tommy: bag him now, bag him! No, but something has to give at some point. Yes, connection. Well, like, we've got a guy—

Josh: it is that blue collar thing, right? It is. It's just like that. But I also think to that point, TJ, is it's like, it's also being happy. Yeah, TJ. Um, I get fuck with a lot. FW. But, um, uh, what the fuck was I saying? Oh yeah, I think it's also being okay with nothing happening as well. Like, I think that the— yeah, um, surrendering, we've talked about. Yeah, like being detached from the outcome because otherwise— because we need to be. I think like Tommy and I have had conversations where it's like we need to be— like, you look at, uh, salaries of radio personalities and all that sort of thing, and we think there is a market of like, if we just— if we can make fucking $100K a year each, doing the— being able to pay Mr. 97 well, have an office, and that's, that's it. Yeah, like, we would be so fucking happy, happy with, with that. And I think that maybe there is that expectation that you are going to blow up, it's going to be this massive thing, rather than just fucking paying rent.

Charlie: Well, I did a short course last weekend— well, last week— um, about growing your creative business, just, uh, at AFTRS in Sydney, the Film and Radio School. It's like a 2-day course, and, uh, it was run by this guy who, you know, used to work in publishing, and, and now sort of he just works in an advisory capacity to of industry, uh, different businesses, but specifically sort of creative industries. And so, you know, each person was there with this couple of content creators. There's a guy used to work in advertising. Then there was me who said, well, you know, like, I write and I act and I've got this podcast and stuff. And he said, okay, well, what you need to work out is the tipping point between hobby and business.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Charlie: And he's gone, and that's a purely numbers game. If the money you're bringing in is equal to or less than, yeah, yeah, then it's a hobby. But he said, if you are— if you— you've also got to count in things like, um, hours away from your family, you know, hardware update, all this kind of stuff. And so the more I thought about it, I'm like, shit, I think this might be a hobby. Like, I mean, it's kind of weird because like I said, you know, the things that we love pursuing, like the sticker books and the stenographer and stuff, is all stuff that loses us money. But But by the same time, that's why I do it.

Josh: It's a thing.

Tommy: I love it.

Charlie: I love it. Like, it would be great if, you know, some mega producer just swept in, some billionaire, you know, producer said, okay, great, well, you know, we're going to fund you, you're going to have like new equipment, here's $100K a year for both of you and an office. But I don't know that that really exists in such a saturated market.

Tommy: We've talked a lot about how there's a pressure, I think, for everybody to feel like they need to turn their hobby into the side hustle, into this money-making thing, which like, you know, think about everyone— the candles, you make them because you love them. Oh, I can sell these. Yeah, it's like there is a huge difference between having it running as a serious operation.

Charlie: Still Saunders, who does the I Love Green Guide Letters podcast, that was his flagship. That's what, you know, the show that he started doing. And then his side thing was he did, um, like a Star Wars podcast, like a fan thing. And quickly the Star Wars thing just caught fire to the point where he moved to Los Angeles because he just had so much— the audience grew so quickly and there was such a demand for it that he had to get closer to the source. And so now that is his primary thing. So it is— he still does I Love Green Guard letters, I believe, or at least, you know, intermittently. It's harder in the United States to get to explain to people what the Green Guard is.

Tommy: Even just Mr. 97, do you know what the Green Guard is? And 19-year-old kid? No idea.

Charlie: Do you know what a newspaper is? Just.

Josh: He got 97 on his ATAR, on his ENTER score, so I could imagine Mr. 97 actually with the newspaper doing all the like, uh, the issues. No, I'm useless. Really?

Charlie: Yeah.

Josh: Ah, I thought you might have been one of those kids that I remember when I first, like, when I grew up I was in the suburbs and I was working on a short film in the city and it was like one of the first times I saw the age. Like, wow. The Herald Sun was always like around my hood. I just thought like, these guys are so smart. Like, I saw an actor, fucking Asian, it was like, look how big that fucking—

Tommy: read the Fin Review at a cafe. You grew up with a large family?

Charlie: Yeah, youngest of 9 kids.

Tommy: Youngest of 9. Josh's mum's one of the youngest.

Josh: Youngest of 11.

Charlie: Oh wow.

Josh: Yeah, so all my aunties and uncles are fucking either super old or dead. Yeah, right.

Charlie: But, um, that's an upbeat story.

Josh: A bit of a fun one.

Tommy: But is there the— do you think there's anything that shaped you of being one of 9?

Charlie: Uh, definitely the being one of being wanting to be like an entertainer or a communicator or whatever, because when you're the youngest at the table, the dinner table, no one's listening to you. Yeah, your opinion doesn't count. Even now as a 41-year-old man when my family gets together, my opinion somehow still ranks as least important, you know, because of where I was born.

Josh: Did you ever have a conversation? Like, I feel like, I feel like as I'm—

Tommy: we're all youngest, by the way. We're all the youngest kids.

Charlie: Babies. Yeah, babies. But I think your podcast called Three Babies. Three Baby. Three Babies and a Man.

Josh: There are three big babies. No, there, there is, um, I feel that there is the the feeling that you need to have a conversation with everyone, a bit of a reset, being like, hey guys, we're all adults now. Have you ever felt like you need to have that with your family where it's like try and shift things, or are you just happy just being—

Charlie: well, I mean, I think podcasting, my love of podcasting stems from the big family thing because my family are all big talkers and they love to explore issues and, you know, really get into like meaty discussions. And so I grew up with the sound of like conversation. To me, it's really comforting. Like often, you know, I, I love music, but I, I'm not like a huge fan where I can, you know, name every track off an album or whatever. But I love listening to podcasts, I love listening to people talking, and I think that does stem from that. But I also think that my family don't really get what I do. Like, I remember a couple years ago, it was hilarious, you're at my sister's place in Melbourne for Easter and, uh, it was the day before Will and I were playing the Comedy Theatre for the Comedy Festival. So, you know, like a 1,000-seat theatre, pretty big show. And, uh, Miranda sort of said to— I'm sorry, uh, Gemma said to my sister Miranda, like, are you guys gonna go see Charlie's show? My sister was like, uh, nah, nah, nah, we haven't bought plans. And Gemma, thinking she was doing the right thing, was like, oh well, you know, we can get you tickets. And I'm like, oh, I don't think they're— and she's like— and so my family, very reluctantly, yeah, sure, we'll 'Will come.' So we got them like, you know, a bunch of tickets and I remember doing the show and it's that thing of like even with 1,000 people you can still just like fixate on the people who aren't laughing and I was bang, there's my family and they just, they're just not into it and I mean they, you know, I love them and they love me but it's just not their thing, like what I do for a living.

Josh: I think part of it is realising that it's like it's okay for it to not be their thing. Like, I always ask my— like, my mum said, I listened to your episode the other day, or whatever. And what I always do is I always make this mistake of saying, oh, what'd you think? And I caught myself in the moment and I said, oh yeah, cool. And I was like so proud of myself. But the next day she followed up and said, I don't think you're very nice to that guy. You're holding on— she was working out, waiting for me to ask.

Tommy: A friend of mine said to me about their sibling, if they weren't family, I wouldn't be friends with them. Which is kind of dark, but there is a bond that is beyond just—

Josh: Is there though?

Charlie: I think my mum, a couple years before my mum passed away, she said to me, uh, I saw you on Home and Away, and she's gone. It wasn't embarrassing at all.

Josh: That's a review. It should definitely Definitely print that as a review. What have you learned from being around comedians?

Charlie: Uh, that they hate themselves and they hate each other. Yeah. Uh, and the worst thing you can say, uh, yeah, the worst smear you can say about a comedian— because I've heard every comedian like alleged about another comedian at some stage— is like, oh, you know, they steal jokes. It's like one of those— it's like the lowest thing, but every comedian has like accused someone else of doing it. Um, I don't know, like, because I started off with Michael Chamberlain and Charlie Pickering and a few other guys. We were all at this production company in Melbourne in like 2001. It's a great production company called Exit Films who now they're sort of exclusive.

Josh: And I love when I was— I remember being in VCA and like film and TV and just watch like Exit because they were all shot on 35mm. Brilliant directors.

Tommy: Yeah, my mate was a runner for them and we got access to the building and South Melbourne.

Charlie: We filmed on their rooftop and it was like, well, even before that, they had this place in Richmond opposite Richmond Station, which was this old creaky warehouse that they'd gutted and hardwood floors. And it was like classic kind of like creative space in the late '90s, you know, where people were riding like Razor scooters around. It's all like glass walls. And so they— the guy who ran the company, Henrik, was this brilliant kind of Danish, um, photographer, had moved to Australia and just decided to start a production company. And so they were— they weren't quite exit films and they were sort of coming up though. They had a lot of great young directors like Glendon and, um, Garth.

Josh: Yeah, Glendon Ivan, he did the— that cracker— I think it was Cracker Bag. Yeah, sick film.

Charlie: Um, and so they had— they wanted to make a comedy pilot and they'd seen these guys do a show at the Comedy Festival, like a, you know, uni review type show. And so that was like Charlie Pickering and a few other guys. And so they had been working on this pilot that hadn't really gone anywhere. Then Michael Chamberlain was brought in and he brought me in as a writer. And so we weren't getting paid, but what they gave us was an office and access to all their gear. And so we would just go in every day like a job and just write sketches and go out and film them. And it's really weird because you didn't realise it at the time because we're just all uni-aged and we just assumed, oh yeah, this is what like life is. You just go to some place and people give you cameras to make stupid sketches.

Josh: Extension of uni and in some regards, right?

Charlie: Yeah, yeah. And then after about a year, because Henrik's dream was to— we had two dreams. One dream was to like, he wanted to make this like pilot that he could sell to a network, but that never happened. And then in the other, the other dream he had was he had this crazy idea that one day people would want to watch videos on their computers. And so he wanted to create like exclusive video content for people's computers. And I remember we went around and met with all these different companies who were like, no one is going to watch videos.

Josh: Yeah.

Charlie: On their laptop. Like, you know, it's TV on nothing, dude.

Josh: Wow.

Charlie: So 4 years before YouTube started, like, if he just sort of held his fire a little bit, he could have timed it perfectly. But so we did that for a year, and then after a year, Henrik said, look, we have to shut this office down. We can't afford to just, you know, keep, um, giving you guys access to our gear. But that was great for us. So me and Michael and Charlie made a, like, a sketch comedy pilot, just brought in some friends and sent that out, and then Michael and Charlie started doing stand-up. And so I sort of had two paths to go down. I was either going to do the stand-up path or, you know, just keep pursuing the acting. And then I got my first acting role, so I went in that direction. But I was tangentially associated with comedy the whole time, and I tried stand-up a few times and just found it terrifying. Like, I did, uh, I did, I think, two or three. I did Raw Comedy once, did a heat, didn't get through. And then I did a couple shows in Melbourne and and all I remember is just sheer panic, like just sheer panic, like with such an overly rehearsed, you know, like 5 minutes. We did it, we did a live Tofop a few years ago where we, I found the original, uh, 5-minute bit. So we, we reread it. It was just awful. Um, but comedians, it's, it's, I think it's got to be one of the toughest jobs, not just like that, musician, because you've got the tour, the grind of the tour of going around and gigging. But it's also just, it's all on your back. Like, it's not like, you know, you can play the hit that everyone loves, you know. Like, generally most comedians— I mean, there are some comedians who do the same bit for 20 years, but you're going out and you're really just with a microphone. You're completely naked on stage, you know. Not literally, but some comedians I'm sure are. But just the idea of being up there and just trying to, trying to make people laugh. Like, it seems— if you actually think about what you're trying to do, it seems insane. Yeah, because If someone says to you, hey, I'm here to make you laugh, what's the first thing you do? You go, fuck that, go on, try it.

Josh: Try it, especially an Australian audience.

Tommy: Yeah. And if you don't make them laugh, the natural thing to do as an audience member is to judge and think, that fucker wasn't funny.

Charlie: Yeah.

Tommy: Which is then just a complete, you know, rip apart of what they've been trying to do without really trying to be malicious about it. Even if you just say, fuck that, that wasn't funny.

Charlie: I mean, I think generally the best comedians I know are the ones that are the ones Obviously you've got to have something to say, but I think it's, it's, it's knowing, it's knowing who you are and embracing the differences. Like, no one wants to see someone get up and make observations that 90% of us can see. You need that kind of left of center, that very personal take on something.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Uh, working in a partnership with Will, what's been the personal learnings for you? Because I think, like, with Tommy and I We have been two individuals doing our own thing, you know, coming together, working on the daily talk show, and then trying to, you know, mould our dual story, right? And letting go some of our independent stuff. What's your take on your, you know, joint storey together? But also, like, you've had— you had the That's Awesome podcast and things like that. Was, was there a desire sometimes to say, I want to try my own thing?

Charlie: Because yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, uh, with podcasting I often think of like doing my own thing, but I think I'm very lazy. There's just other stuff going on. But I find I— with That's Awesome, that was really— I just wanted to, to be— it was the most indulgent idea for podcasts. I just wanted to create a diary of friends of mine. Like, I just want to have long conversations with friends of mine and just get their take on stuff. And the last interview I did— I did 3 interviews with my mum, who was— I had stage 4 breast cancer at the time. And so I did one with Will on Tofop, and then I did 2 with her in her last 6 months of being alive. And the last one I did with her was 2 months before she passed away. And it was really— it was such an amazing, unguarded, honest conversation about death, you know, and and, you know, it's funny and it's sad, and she's so brilliant in it that when I uploaded that episode, I was like, who the fuck am I going to get on after that? Yeah, like, I think it's like 37 episodes or something. But, you know, and it had such a huge response, like, the people who heard it were just— they were so moved by it. I kind of was like, I think I've achieved what I wanted to do with that one.

Josh: Yeah.

Charlie: I mean, I'm— I— there's a couple of ideas I'm kicking around to do, like, solo podcast, but I think I want to make it a bit more structured.

Josh: Yeah, what, what is that, um, not even advice but the learning that you've had in doing the duo or the team stuff? Because I feel like the stuff that Tommy and I have gone—

Charlie: sounds like I'm doing some kind of like mediation. Absolutely, absolutely.

Josh: I think that, I think the thing does—

Charlie: will chew really loudly.

Josh: I think there's definitely— I think there's I think what's probably— I was even watching one of Rooster Teeth's brands. They have a show called Mythical Mornings, and they've got— and there was an episode where the guys basically deconstructed the fact that they're like, they were receiving feedback from fans around how someone didn't like how Rhett was chatting, talking to Link. And there's this whole deconstruction around like, even though we're being authentic, we're also playing characters and we're doing this and that. And I feel like whenever you do something on, uh, in the public eye and there's two people there, there are all these things that come along with it, especially when it's with a friendship. Have you had discussions around this is a bit of gear, this is content, or, you know, what has been those, those points of learnings about yourself? Because I think it's like, it's an— you have to remove your ego, I feel, when doing a duo, realising that it's not even removing your ego, it's realising that like your storey's not always the funniest story, it's not the best story. And that also, that, uh, thing of when someone says a great story, my first inclination used to be to be like, oh, I've got a funny storey too. How do you reconcile?

Charlie: Well, I think, uh, I mean, it helps when you've got one of Australia's best comedians sitting across, and then Will, um, No, I mean, the great thing about, you know, working with someone like Will, he's so fast and so quick and he's been doing it for so long that you— I don't really have to worry about something getting too slow or boring or whatever because he, you know, at any point he can just pull something out. And I think without really— we don't really discuss stuff like, you know, we don't— we don't sort of come with a plan or say, hey, should we talk about this? But Instinctively, I feel like the show works best when I come to the show with a something, with something I've read, with a personal storey or whatever it is, and then Will is able to pick that apart. And then when he picks it apart, I'm able to respond. That to me is the best episodes of TOEFL where, you know, we did this in— we call it the bin trilogy. We did this entire thing about 3 episodes in a row where I was getting so annoyed. I had my wheelie bin went missing and I was convinced that my, uh, that I was convinced that these, these, these kids, these teenagers in my street had stolen it. Like I'd created this entire paranoid— and so bringing that in and then Will sort of like counselling me through that and then discovering that it wasn't these kids, it was actually, you know, my neighbor. And then, you know, all this other kind of stuff went on through it.

Josh: But where was the bin?

Charlie: Well, my neighbour just accidentally had taken it. I was convinced that these like these teenagers, these, these like '80s, '80s movie punks, you know, had like stolen it, but it was just, um, that, that's kind of perfectly sums up when the show is, is cooking really well. It's like, well, you, you bring in a topic and then it can go in any, any direction. I think, you know, that not that, you know, every show is like your child, you're not going to pick favorites, but I, I definitely know that the show For me, the show feels like it drags when we are trying to force— sure, trying to force humour into something or trying to force something out of it. Like, it flows much better when it's just like this, like it's just a conversation.

Tommy: Would Will say the same thing, do you think?

Charlie: I think so. I mean, yeah, I mean, I feel like— and also, you know, he's one of the hardest working guys in showbiz, literally. Like, he has, you know, he's got his stand-up, he's got Gruen, he's got radio, all this kind of stuff. So he doesn't really have time to prep a whole bunch of material for his fake radio show that he does with his mate. So it's easier if I can, you know, it's a, it's probably a relief for him that he can just sit in a chair and then just like snipe, you know, I can bring something in, he can just pick it apart.

Josh: What's, uh, what's exciting for you with TOEFL specifically in the coming years, do you think?

Charlie: Um, I just think it's the associated product. Like, you know, we sort of felt a couple years ago, or maybe a longer time ago, that this, you know, shit, maybe we're the new Hamish and Andy or something like that. But I think now we've sort of like really settled into, no, it is what it is. Like, I hate using the word cult, but I think we have a very niche audience. I find it very hard to recommend my own show to people because I just don't know if they're the kind of people who'll get it or who'll like it.

Tommy: By not having a niche, you've created a niche.

Josh: Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, your niche is you guys. Yeah, yeah.

Charlie: I mean, you're either— yeah, you're either into what we do or you're not. Yeah, our particular brand of whimsy.

Josh: So those associated products, what do you actually— what are you thinking? Like, what do you dream of? Uh, what are your dreams?

Charlie: Look, I mean, probably none that have been explored enough to articulate here, but I think that there are there are— there— we have generated so much content over 200 and whatever episodes. And I know that seems laughable to you guys, right? I mean, we've only been doing it for a year and a bit, so 10 years and 200-something episodes. But, um, we— I recently had an intern just go through and log every episode from episode 1, just time code everything we've talked about. And when I read through it, I'm like, there is a shit tonne of stuff here that could be mined, you know, if you wanted to like turn it to a TV show or web series or do like a podcast just exploring that. Did you guys hear Finding Drago?

Josh: The—

Charlie: no, no, uh, uh, uh, it's a podcast, uh, two Sydney comedians did, which is about, um, fan fiction. That one of them found a bit of fan fiction about Ivan Drago, you know, from Rocky IV. And it's such an innocuous beginning to a podcast, but then exploring who wrote the fan fiction and where it's come from. It was so fantastic. And it's— to me, that is like— that's— Tofap has 100 of those ideas in its back catalog. It's now just about, you know, going through it, which I've only just started to do, and reading through all the, all the kind of time codes and being like, okay, is there something in that? You know, maybe we can expand that in some direction. I mean, the great thing is we have an audience that is very loyal and, and really like everything we do. Um, you know, when we, when we put something out there for them, they snap it up really quickly.

Josh: How do you pitch things into Will?

Charlie: Um, just have a conversation, like, I mean, nothing special.

Josh: Or is it— do you feel— because I feel like you were mentioning that he's this, you know, the hardest working guy in showbiz. I guess there's a prioritisation game that you probably play where it's like, okay, what— we've got the show, that's like the, the number one thing. And sometimes it probably feels like just treading water, just making that happen.

Charlie: I mean, Will has never made himself unavailable. Yeah, like that's the thing, that's the crazy thing with his schedule is that he'll always find time to do it, which is, um, you know, so it hasn't really been a case of like having to pitch something into him. Like it's just if he can, if he's got time, then he'll do it. And there's been times where, you know, a lot of the kind of more administrative stuff is down to me and our producers, you know. I'll just go off and work things out and then you just present— I'll present it to him and say, okay, well, this is what we're doing, yay or nay. And it's the easiest way to get it across.

Tommy: Yeah, I think there's so many— like, there's so many differences in your partnership and Josh and I. Yeah, in terms of the level of sort of breaking down everything we do. I don't know if that— what I've gauged from speaking with heaps of people is like there's no really one formula.

Josh: Maybe I overthink as well.

Tommy: No, but that's then, that's your formula, so it's not that we need to take someone else's approach. Exactly, bag him, you're fine, mate.

Josh: Yeah, tomorrow you've got a live, live show. Yeah. Um, how many live shows do you reckon you do a year?

Charlie: Not many. Um, we, we used to do like one a year.

Tommy: You did the Opera House, didn't you?

Charlie: We did the Opera House. That's bizarre. That was crazy.

Josh: How did that happen?

Charlie: Did the Opera House but weren't allowed to, um, mention it in any of— when we raised it, it's part of the Opera House deal. You have to give them $10,000 if you put the Opera House in any of your, like, episode titles.

Josh: We've actually been in the Opera House 5 times for the show, but we've just never paid the 10 grand.

Tommy: Well, we did one at Opera Bar. Oh yeah, that's right. We had the camera set.

Josh: It was good. It was definitely Not authorized.

Tommy: We got sunburnt.

Charlie: Our tour poster for that show, uh, sorry, our Opera House show is, um, uh, like a drawing of like Will and I hanging from a helicopter above Sydney Harbour with a big sinkhole. There's our little joke. But, um, yeah, we—

Tommy: Sonic the Hedgehog, let's put him in there. He'd probably get sued for using Sonic.

Charlie: We did the Comedy Festival for a few years and it was always a great fun show and it's great to bring out other comedians and stuff, but Um, I think now that podcasts are so widespread, there's so many competing for attention, we just sort of felt like, ah, well, it's not, it's not as special as it used to be. And also I think that, yeah, you know, we, I think we sit more comfortably with us in a smaller— it's like hip-hop. I like seeing hip-hop in smaller venues. Like when you go to a big stadium show or music festival, hip-hop never translates quite as well. And I feel like, you know, our show is two guys talking, and so do you really need 1,000 people? Yeah, that seems like a smaller audience. Yeah, that much better.

Tommy: We've thought about doing live shows and stuff, but I mean, we've done mini ones. Do you— what's your— going into that, do you prepare more?

Charlie: Yeah, well, when we do the live shows, that's 100% me, um, and I love that. Like, I, I will prepare, you know, we'll do like a game show. And the Opera House was— that, that has been my favourite so far because, um, at, uh, Mike Howell is our producer, who's this, uh, guy who lives in Portland, Oregon. And the way he came into our show is he just approached us and said, hey, you know, I, uh, I've got my own sound studio, if you want me to do all your post. And so the joke became that, hang on, this guy just contacted us online, how do we know this is not just like super sophisticated AI? And so the joke became that he was a robot. And so that's been, you know, the running joke. So when we did the live show—

Tommy: he's the computer on the website. Yeah, a little computer icon for his face.

Charlie: Yeah, yeah, that's right. So no one's really seen what he looks like. So when we did the the live show at the Opera House, I thought it'd be hilarious to, um, because he was, he was going to fly out for it, and so I was gonna— him in the audience— I thought it'd be hilarious to say to him that I've found an Australian girl for him while he's out here, and then roll out this robot. And I wanted to get Dexter from Perfect Match to come out, but I couldn't get Dexter, but found these guys in Western Sydney who run like a, a robot workshop where they're just hobbyists who build robots. And so I got them to build a robot. Turns out Mike Howe couldn't make it out there, so I got Justin Hamilton to voice the robot. So like, you know, we're in the Sydney Opera House and I get them to lower the lights and play some like '80s sci-fi.

Josh: It was so self-indulgent, so indulgent.

Charlie: And out rolls this robot being remote controlled by some guy off stage and then being voiced by Justin. And it was so dumb, it was so dumb, but it worked really well. And it's kind of like, that's my favourite stuff, is like, it's not so much about what you're doing, it's the spirit in which you're doing it. And you're playing to an audience of people who love your stuff. Like, it's very hard to have a bad show. It's not like the guy in the stand-up audience, he's got his arms folded waiting for you to convince him to laugh. Like, yeah, they're there because they, they want to, they want to be there.

Josh: Yeah. Your normal location where you live is a weird way of saying it. Sydney. How often—

Charlie: that is a weird one, I didn't have no idea where you're going.

Josh: Location, home, yeah, yeah, right by residence. Yeah, it's all coming unstuck, uh, in Sydney. How often are you in Melbourne?

Charlie: Uh, quite a bit this year. Um, I've been doing quite a bit of stuff down here, but like, Melbourne's home, that's where I grew up, and I always love coming back here. So I try and get down to Melbourne at least half a dozen times.

Tommy: Do you come back to watch the footy? Because I know you're a mad St. Kilda fan.

Charlie: Yes, I will, I will come down to watch Lots of football. I am a St. Kilda Football Club ambassador this year. Oh yeah, so I have some official ambassadorial—

Josh: what does that actually mean?

Charlie: You have to talk, talk at the club, I guess, go to a president's lunch. Um, generally, generally just, uh, use my influencer status to promote the club.

Josh: 3 Instagram posts a year or something like that.

Tommy: And then, and so, um, Two Guys One Cup's back.

Charlie: Two Guys One Cup's back, uh, worse than ever. I mean, completely Every year we seem to talk about a player who's been retired that we have no idea.

Tommy: He mentioned Rewalt before.

Charlie: Yeah, well, Jack Rewalt's still playing.

Josh: That's who I meant, you fucking idiot. He's got no idea what team he played for. St Kilda.

Charlie: Yeah, he did, he did, he did.

Josh: Of course he did.

Tommy: No, no, no, Nick did.

Charlie: He was our longest-serving captain.

Josh: And then you had Jack. Who's he play for? I think it was Richmond. I guess it's Richmond. Is it Richmond?

Charlie: Richmond, yes.

Josh: That's really good. It is really good. Well, it would be great to have you back on the show because we're going to be doing this for like 10 years is the plan.

Charlie: Yeah, great.

Josh: 10-year plan.

Tommy: Unless we go to that workshop you did and they tell us that this is a fucking hobby.

Charlie: This is a hobby. And work out— do you guys do your own accounting?

Tommy: Yeah, we do.

Charlie: You got Xero? Yeah. Gee, man, since I started getting Xero, I'm like, fuck. Wow, there's a lot of outgoings and not many incomes.

Josh: That's a good brand integration. It's just like zero looking after podcasts.

Tommy: You naturally cook the books when they're on paper, but there's no cooking the books when it's—

Josh: when you've got nothing. And also when you've got nothing coming in, there's no way you can really cook the books.

Tommy: Zero really looks like a fucking shithole.

Josh: Thanks for coming on, Charlie. The Daily Talk Show. Send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Tomorrow's Friday. What are we doing for Fat Friday?

Tommy: Fat Friday's every Friday, Charlie. We eat shit food because it's Fat Friday.

Charlie: Yeah, great. What do you eat?

Josh: I have no fucking idea, but we're filming you guys too, so we better go cheque out that location.

Charlie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do that.

Josh: All right, thank you guys.