#292 – Improv with Dr. Jason Fox/
- February 27, 2019
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we’re joined by our mate Dr. Jason Fox. Jason is a motivational speaker, leadership advisor and philosopher who helps two gronks make sense of the world.
The different types of psychology
How Mr. 97 felt about his first date
Dr. Jason Fox vs Jason fox
Measuring your progress
Jason’s outlook on the future
Staying the course
Putting trust in someone you’re working with
Jason’s thoughts on social media
Watch today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjckgJwbNoc
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A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
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Talk Show Episode 292 with
Jason Fox, Dr. Jason Fox. Oh, hey guys. Good night. Yeah, yeah. Good. Welcome back. Thanks. It's been a while since you last on but you had your better half. Yeah. Unless you think you're the better half out of that Joe and I definitely the better half. Yeah. Yeah.
And that was like one of your early video one. Yeah,
You had a hot day. And then a week later, Kim was on
the temperature gets crazy and Kim
lamb is you guys are married. I mean, it's just throws me off the full named Kim lamb. And your name is Jason for
the full name is a lot longer. Is it an amazing? I can't pronounce it properly. But
now. Because the Vietnamese language has these odd phonetics and so if you have any hint of uncertainty, yeah, we ended up with night. Like a question mark. It screws the whole meaning.
You can't nail it. I'll never be able to nail it. Kim was on. So 207 70
guys to work it out. 7273 Yeah. And you were episode one. Was it 99? Was it just before? Hamish Blake
or after? Maybe it was 1111? Yeah. So in
a back 292.
And so the doctor in Dr. Jason Fox, that's because you've got a doctorate in something. Is that how it works in philosophy? Okay, great. Mr. 97. We've been talking about this
pre show. Yeah. He had a date. Yes. Yeah.
So you said landed on an episode where we're in the secret people are probably just tuned in as much
they want to hear you. And I think that's
actually what's more weird is is your your friends that have no idea who Mr. 97 is landing on this episode?
Because they're in for a ride.
Because last night, Mr. 97 he went on his very first date. Like he's 19 never been on date. This was the very first one. And we and we hooked it up.
well we shameless girls catalyzed
Yeah, but I do like that.
It's like that was the the end of that.
We did it. Yeah, it was us.
But we thought you are the most qualified person to what psycho analyst like it to psychoanalyze? Is that something you can do?
think it's something that's ever appreciated, but many amateurs attempted. Okay, great. I love
it. Good. Amateur psycho analyze?
No, I think it's good. So I will just say a few observations about Mr. 97. Yesterday, was that he dropped the ball.
and I say that in a loving way. It wasn't just him dropping the ball on a on a normal day, it was a day that his first day was about to happen. He left the camera out. He didn't lock the cabinet. That way we keep the camera.
Left, the lights are all the gear was left on, he was freaking out because he was only a few hours away from me from his best day. So we thought this could be a good opportunity. We had the day brief in regards to the dice. Yeah. And we thought that you were in a great position to have a good five minute chat with Mr. 97. To have a bit of an under I don't know if you could use some of your what's the different side of the just very quickly, this side note, different schools of psychology. When people say Freud, of Freud, even if it's a Freudian slip, yes. Why is it a Freudian slip?
My I haven't gone in deep into Freud. But like I my understanding is that you make some sort of accidental sexual innuendo that relates to your relationship with your parents, or some sort of like, historical
thing. Really? Yeah,
I feel like I use it all in the rhyme is just quite the wrong way. But I think that's interesting. And so there's different types of cycles. So that's why school Yes. like
India past? Yeah, yeah,
exactly. Yeah, I to logical like all that, which we're only gonna give you five minutes.
So we probably can
go into his pants. Yeah,
so maybe it's so Freud's off the table? What are the other forms of sort of ways that we can look at the way that we
finish schools of thoughts like this Atlassian psychology, which is more teli logical. So that means more about what were your intentions or goals or objectives, and how that shaped things. And, gosh, we'll get into the philosophy narrative and all sorts of things, I think that the boundaries between different domains of thought are fairly nebulous. So we'll just have a dance for five minutes, and they can
see what emerges. And so if I, just quickly on the psychology thing, if I'm trying to find a psychologist, do I, like I know that when Bry was finding one, she definitely wasn't thinking about is this person, a Freud? is a layer in or whatever it's called?
Usually, can I get subsidized for this? See, it
gets increasingly more important in this modern world as we experience more and more alienation and fragmentation of our own sense of personality and self through social media and all the other distractions. So what to look for in a psychologist, yeah, just Can you? Do you feel comfortable? Can you hang out with them? Can you just open up in a natural way without him seeming to rely on some data dogma?
So would so to most psychologists say I am of the school?
Not so much? And I wouldn't I wouldn't be warning bell, if they said that, I think there would be more, a good psychologist would be listening to be really curious and just be offering new perspectives or ways of seeing things. And
so I asked that question of a psychologist, like I'm just trying to think of like, if there's a different if you've got a car, and there's different ways to service the engine, I might want to say, I actually only want them to do this certain way. Is that me being a control freak to say, hey, I need to know exactly what sort of technique you're going to use. It's okay. So yes,
um, well, yeah,
possibly. I mean, it would be going into it with a whole fixed notion of what, what, what do you want the method to be? I mean, let's just like little caveat, my backgrounds in philosophy, right. And psychology. Yeah. But I think just a general looseness to this teasing it out seeing what works and what seems to seems to work. That's probably the best approach. Okay.
What I'm drawing the, the connection between is finding a psychologist and missing 97 going dating very similar things. Yeah, exactly.
You're gonna build the pole, you're gonna see how you interact. Yeah,
and so and so on. Just
cost money. The other.
Philosophy is a good place, just like, I think looking at this whole dating thing from a philosophical lens. is nothing more practical. Yeah. And
so our thinker, and Mr. 97 is a thinker. So I think maybe you could untapped some of that.
Thinking. Rich and confused. Did you have in? Who did you have like into schools?
Did you do it?
This way, did Tommy and I both worked great. And
we've actually split up Josh is between us. We've got 28. Yeah.
But it's so interesting. When you are growing up how much
importance is put on that number? How much emphasis parents seem to put on that? And yeah, yeah, it's an it's an old psyche and dynamic nowadays, but I don't know how relevant it is compared to what it used to be.
What did you get it eight?
Let's bring in the most intelligent one in the room on paper.
He doesn't have any degree you do. You're a doctor
who said the thing is the web standards versus Victorian? I don't know. Like, from a I feel like wi might look down upon
Victoria number. Yeah.
Let's try to save face for Dr. Jason.
we're gonna give you five minutes. Mr. 97. Jason, you jump into my seat.
gone. This is the easiest podcast. This is great.
Yeah, good. Nice. Wow. So this is exciting. Thanks for stepping in. Yeah, yeah.
So first days, what I'm so curious about is what what's the Thank you.
to get a sense of like, How were you physiologically? Yeah, what happened? Yeah, and what were you imagining would play out? What you were hoping for? Yeah,
sure. I think going into it. I was a little little bit nervous about it. I think leading Where did you experience the nervousness? How did you know you're nervous? Hot right. Definitely a hot right. Yeah. The hot was panting a little bit but it was I think it was actually arrived because I got there. And I was I was more excited than that. Which was which is great. So sort of like a reframe that, which is cool. Yeah,
that's a great technique. And yeah, everyone, like reframing nerves into it. Yeah. Mentor anticipation. So like, what
was it like?
Did you did you feel that you had an array Joe? We editing yourself? Would you feel quite in the moment when you're there?
Now the the, the sort of the night that it was it was just like relaxing? And and chill. So it was, yeah, nothing was false. It was just sort of, I could just go with the flow and pay myself. Yeah, really? Yes. Yes. Cool.
What do you think made it relaxing?
Just just it being just like aeration or not just a being like a whole open environment? Just I mean.
Oh, yeah. Yeah,
that's right. Because I have animals in like, retirement village, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Cuz apparently when you pat them down,
you're not brought your own. Yeah, I brought my pop videos. I'm not just doing normal things like going out, picking up food, that sort of thing. Going shopping at the supermarket. say okay, so you started off at the supermarket? Yeah. Okay.
so while you're at the supermarket for your first date,
I mean, yeah,
we picked up some food for dinner. All right. Okay. Yeah.
And did you have in your mind like little ploys, like I'm going to pick the organic stuff and I'm going to show you how progressive I am
now. Now. I sort of just went with the flow didn't I didn't think I didn't want to overthink anything so I just sort of yeah went with it Yeah,
yeah putting in anything
yeah, no, it was it was all healthy stuff.
What we cooking
we're going to do Mexican but we just made
wraps with veins and stuff. Oh,
why? Just when you say just made Ah yeah, well, it was just it was just a bit easier Yeah.
to to to There we go. Mr. Nice seven. Is it worth pointing out the fact that you didn't ask the dietary requirements beforehand? That's
she might have been vegetarian
she might have a vegetarian let's go back to the philosophy of it. Yeah, yeah.
so so like what have you made this mean? Like this is a this is a funny thing first like in Western society. This is like a milestone from that Yeah. masculine lens. We are sure there are some healthy components to it, but we don't want to dial this up too much and become toxic masculinity. Yeah, the next like, like reflecting on this like and how do you feel what like what's changed in you
have probably developed more confidence from it. Yes. Just doing something that I've never done before. And somebody that put me in lots of discomfort is just push my boundaries shapes. So yeah,
right. Okay, so what so many same looks like
more confidence What would it mean how might you approach things differently in the future?
I'm probably probably not worry about it as much just sort of going with with excitement instead of reframe that is exciting. Nice. Worried about it.
A conversation. Yeah,
it was great, though. It was
Yeah, she was lovely. So yeah. What about conversation one? Just not know, making it too awkward. How
would you make it awkward?
Not every enough to talk about? I don't know. All right. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
But nowadays, Got it. Got it covered. Yeah.
Okay, so what's next then? What's next?
I don't know. Maybe maybe another catch up? I don't know. Okay.
And then you like a during the whole psychology of like, who texts next? And like, you don't want to I don't want to seem too enthusiastic. And immediately after but yes. Go cold and
yeah, I that's that's something that I'm cautious of not overthinking as much. But yeah, I don't want to get caught in so this
is fascinating. Like for me because I'm an over thinker. Yeah, yeah. You're like, deliberately consciously trying. Yeah, I
think that Yeah.
Do you like if you catch yourself Do you like catch yourself thinking about it? And then just say, Okay, yeah,
I sort of, yeah, it'll pop into my head or something will come up that I said a song like, Can I sort of just quell the idea? Like, it's Yeah,
okay. The idea Hmm.
This is fascinating. For me, it seems to have a certain level of self awareness and discipline. Yeah. kind of go into those spirals? Yeah. So but then the risk is not over thinking about it. Isn't there a risk that you might be to chill like to like, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I yeah, there's that risk, but I feel like I've got enough covenants to be okay in doing that says something to when you reflect back on
yesterday, you're kind of quietly quite chuffed about in yourself like that. You notice like I thought that I might blah, but then this happened. And I'm really happy with how that
Yeah, probably. Yeah. Probably just going back to the whole conversation thing. It was it just ended up. Just, yeah, we just end up having having a really nice chat. So yeah,
that's cool. Okay, yeah.
Can I just ask quickly, sorry, guys. This is a nice chat. Like how I want to kind of like Yeah, yeah,
like a whiskey tasting. Right. Like, let's let's say what is nice chatting. Yeah,
probably just one that's that's easy. You can just be yourself in that's got got a bit of banter. That's funny. Okay. If he jokes,
what does it mean for you when you're being yourself?
Yes, giving. There's like, making jokes giving the other person shit. Just talking. Talking about a banter smack. Yeah.
Oh, cool. And
it seems that you seem to chew right. This is a company. This is a guy who's just been on his first date.
And 19 as well. Like, a lot of wisdom I expected like the, like odd stories
of fireworks. I think it seems pretty
chill and cool. Like a show. Nothing.
Nothing happened. Like what what does the dog with you the whole time?
Yeah, Abby, Abby. Yeah, she was. She was in she was Jesse had a little.
She was Yeah, yeah. She that she was she was going from
Georgia do this was
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she was. She wasn't the best way, man. But it's all right.
And sorry, 97.
Just very quickly. I mean, what's the the shameless audience? I feel like we owe it to them. You've got a bunch of dams. Yeah. Future dates for other people keeping it all open? Yeah. What do you say is the next step with your dating life over the next month? Yeah,
Definitely. Still Open.
Open for business.
Okay, great. Yeah. And so you'll probably message you haven't messaged Sharon yet?
No. Okay. I will do
okay, so you gotta probably messaged Sharon, because it's been too I think 12 hours is a good period of time. And then from there tomorrow, would it be fair to say that you could potentially have another date? lined or at least in the works for someone else? Yeah,
potentially. Okay. Wow.
Good show thing. Yeah.
And how, what was your first Do you remember what your first date with Jesus I
would have had, like so many narratives like I would have imagined all these different scenarios of how things could have been, and it would have been back at 19. I would have been like, hero's journey, looking for opportunities to do something significant. And that that kind of like real signifiers of my character, and totally overthinking it, and then in the moment, kicking myself, like shit, not working out as I thought it would, and then being solely disconnected from the moment not really present, not experiencing flow and stuff like that, it seems like you've bypassed all that awkwardness and you've landed on in space, which is quite natural.
It's so interesting. Look, Mr. 97, since I've known him seeing how I perceive him and how he can my perceived himself. so fascinating, the thinking about that awkwardness and thinking about it's it's so out of the moment to be thinking about the moment because once it's like if you're a painter and you just flowing, it's like you just connecting to him where it's like it is it it's a challenge, why do we overthink? What is Oh, well, it's funny, because I grew up
without social media. But I think in this day and age with social media, for those that are addicted to it, or in the system, there's so much preening involved in so much like curating of what facets of yourself you put forth, which requires you to think about how do I want to perceive and then puts you in this kind of whole web of perception management, where you realize that people are going to be forming impressions of who you are based upon the snippets of what they see. And so therefore, you start thinking, Okay, well, I best show these snippets so that they think highly of me and stuff like that, to kind of bypass all that noise and get back to this space where you can just be a little bit more real a bit more human. I think it's his room. I think it's wonderful.
How do you try and I guess what I try and avoid is being cool being okay with being cool, but also not being emotionally unavailable. So saying, like, would there be any feedback to Mr. 97? That potentially there's a risking, it's okay, if things don't work out? I yeah.
I think you're that's a really astute observation. And and I would say that it's like Mr. 97, could afford to possibly show the I mean, that's pretty vulnerable coming up. And like, during this whole experiment
is right, this is like married at first sight with the expert coming in, but just go hard because they do. Yeah,
I feel like something, you've got more credentials.
I think there's something quite charming, where like, we get to air out our insecurities. And then we get to allow others to see a glimpse into their own our own inner insecure world, because it just reminds us out there just as insecure as is often it helps to bridge connections. So you know, the coolness as a psychological trait. You know, you deconstruct James Bond and the coolness there, it's it's, it comes down to the physiology, minimal movement, particularly minimal head movement. Whereas someone who's really affection it'd
be terrible on our show.
and, and that kind of emotional, kind of stoic Nestle sturdiness, which I don't think is cool. Yeah,
and I think that the other thing to, to give Mr. 97, so much credit, he's biggest concern this morning was, I don't want to talk too many details about the date, because I really respect the girl I love, like the person I went on the date with, and I don't want it to be, you know, he's, he's emotionally available about his story. But I also think there's a self awareness of knowing it's like, actually, this isn't just my story. This is also Sharon story
is one way to grow. Confidence is exactly what he's doing. Opening up about his
experiences. Really? Yeah.
He's been being vulnerable. That's
it's commendable. Like I look at that was one of the most awkward interviews of saying
no other reason than talking to
other reasons to No, no, no,
seriously, but it's him doing this is not easy. Yeah, no, not easy for anybody.
I think, you know, I think what we're seeing here is a nascent form of near masculine ism. And this is like, there's this kind of new brand of masculine ism, where you can be, you can be manly, without there being that kind of toxic overtones, where it gets taken out of hand is this kind of new re forging of what it means. And I love how Miss 97 has been such a gentleman about it. And there's been some respectful boundaries, but also a willingness to open up and play it.
What is the when you think about toss toxic, I can't even say the whole phrase toxic masculinity.
We're within that whole conversation, there's a lot of people that have these trigger words where they'll shut off and it doesn't end up becoming productive, is, are there other phrases or, or ways of describing these things that can actually get more to the people who have
I tend to academic
I think a good thing to remember is that anything can be toxic in high enough doses, right? So even water, you drink enough of it, you can, you can die. And so it's that like, how much of a dose of a particular thing gets too much, where it actually starts to become unhealthy. So there's this kind of macho bravado, there's the kind of men catching up and having beers and stuff. But if that then turns into something that's exclusive with that then turns into something that emphasizes the differences between men and women too much, if that becomes too wrapped up in the story of what masculinity is. And people start seeing too much specialist and specialist in identifying as manly masculine stuff like that. I think that can then lead to alienation for others discomfort artificial power asymmetries, you know, it's, I don't know.
But how do we how do we as two blokes doing a podcast? How do we avoid the toxic bit so masculine? I reckon you guys do really, really well is you've got this combination, this both end of being totally yourself saying things as you would, and also maintaining open curiosity and the willingness to learn and to be like to accept that, you know, we look back on our past selves. And sometimes we say shit that the current cells wouldn't say now knowing what we know now, which, which I think you guys are demonstrating this ability to have vivid and live what academics would call a protein synthesis. So by that, you know, what a prototype is like working model. It's just not it's not finished. It's just like a rough time. And a synthesis is like, we synthesize all these different strands. So what you guys are doing is synthesizing all the experience all the conversations, you've had all the knowledge you've gained into this kind of prototype, which is ongoing Lee and prototype. And, you know, I think that that your willingness to be yourselves and to be open to changing and evolving yourself is
a lot that I just imagining this this new human reforming within what we're doing a talking out loud, and and talking through your thoughts, has been the thing that is I feel developed me most rapidly in the last
year and to be here. Yeah.
And you know, the other thing that I think you guys are done really well here. There's this thing book by Nancy Klein, I think it is called thinking environments. And one of the principles of a thinking environment is that you have permission, almost this inherent permission to think in draft. So you have the ability to share your draft thoughts, these aren't your final positions. This isn't your stances. I hope not.
It's constant draft.
And I think that in this day and age, people are so scared to share their draft thinking because you don't know if it's going to be put viral on the internet and used against you or you use as a point to defame you or taken out of context and said, but I think you guys are demonstrating this kind of vulnerability and willingness to put yourselves out there in draft form.
Well, that you've got someone like Joe Rogan, or someone like Sam Harris, Sam Harris is an academic and he said on Joe's podcast, I can't seem to stupid because my brand is the complete opposite. Like I'm researched. I'm, you know, educated. How do you find that with your brand being? You know, you're an academic written books. Yeah.
You I don't know. Can you delve into our world or there is a funny psyche going on. For me personally, I've got the DocuSign Fox brand character, you guys are speaking to Jason Fox at the moment, I make a distinction because in the writing the chase and Fox is quite wizard Lee. And sometimes when I appear on stage, I kind of I bring a certain hubris and almost an error Socratic arrogance to, to the performance, which is coupled with this kind of humble, insecure version of Jason Fox. And what I would like to do is to have people I guess, I think there's a lot of narrative. There's a lot of there's a lot of smoke and mirrors when it comes to expertise nowadays. And what it is, is often just people trying to make sense of the world. And if we emphasize more now thinking, reasoning, our rationalizing how we come to certain perspectives and conclusions, and less about, oh, this person is an expert, they have all the answers or this person's a source of authority. I think that will get into a better space. And so I try to demonstrate the blend of authority and approachability.
At the same time. I think the that's the thing that I even think about doing this type of content. There is the inclination to want to heighten guru ism, or whatever you want to talk about it to celebrate
guests that we have on and so even thinking about last night, how to integrate what you're great at with Mr. 97. The things that were running through my head was like, we respect Jason, we sit like, it needs to be positioned in a way that is respectful of the fact that when you're coming on the show, you're not a client, even though you are full
of the year, that that we don't want we should go that no context.
And then I guess
premise is like when we have you know, female guests on the show, we want to make sure that hang on, are we if we had done the Mr. 97 thing on a specific time? are we are we then undermining their expertise? So the doctor in Kim lamb should be at the same extent as the doctor of Jason Fox. And those things are so subconscious.
Can we all say we would have got his dog in she would have done a full index.
examination. The doctor and Kim lamb is probably much more useful.
I remember because in the trying to find the date for this, you and you said like you can come along on fat Friday, if you want, but maybe that's not on brand. Like, I'm not sure yeah, maybe in fact, Friday's not so on brand. But then this is how we get back in the whole grooming and the preening and they're trying to present only a certain aspect of yourself. I think if we ditch the notion of like a lot of people carry this really crude notion that there's the ideal self and the shadow self. And it's this false dichotomy between just two forms of self, if we see a cells as multitudinous. And as in there's multiple, we're actually all individuals. So we we can we co create each of the jewels? Did you say what is individuals and what's the individual means indivisible, so it kind of speaks to the fact that there is some essential self within us that you can't divide further. But the more you look at it analytically, the more you say that the breakfast I had the sleep that I had, you had all the things, that conversation.
All of those things shape who we are in this present moment. And so we realized that we're not actually an individual self, we're actually co creating each other in all this.
I think there's like it humanizes individuals, when we see someone like Obama telling some, you know, talking to some serious point, but then you see him with his family laughing and just experiencing life as everyone does. And I think that's probably you won Best speaker in Australia. And I didn't see this speech that he gave was at one speech that he gave
to do, like a short real sort of thing is on
saying the industry kind of keeps an eye on you know, who, that's cool, professional consistently doing really good work
from saying you speak on videos. That what you said about that sort of the insecure Jason and then the, you know, bravado, the broad performance, performance, that probably they counter each other in such a nice way, which is humanizing. Yes. Everyone is a bit. Yeah, totally. And everyone has fees, Tony Robbins, whose companies and he's insecure. Yeah,
everyone is Oh, yeah. There's this beautiful thing where we actually see most truth lies in paradox where it seems that there's two opposing truths been looking at them together, you get these these beautiful new things in, emerged. So sincerity and irony. So sometimes, if we are pure sincerity, that can be too much sometimes, and people get awkward. Like, I remember I gave you an extreme compliment at
everyday hashtag extreme compliment.
I can't remember but give it a year.
Because you hadn't like many of us. Do. You had this kind of inbuilt like defense mechanism, like humor? Oh, you kind of turned it into a joke or something like that. It's like,
Oh, yeah, I do. I do. I've been told that before.
I've been told that I don't take compliments. Well, but
it's also the extreme sincerity that I was doing. It is like awkward, right? Yeah. So when irony and sincerity kind of blended in together, you have this kind of distancing, but you can still be kind of really authentic. And that's a really special thing that I think is emerging. And how do
people get to describing someone as insincere? When there is sincerity? What's what do you think that is? The actual distinction? And what puts someone in the position to understand their sincerity? Yeah,
alright. So so it's an interesting thing to call someone else instance year because what you're more, it's more accurate as to say, I feel as low.
And there's, if you're in recognizing the feeling in yourself, it's probably because you're noticing some sort of in congruence between what the person is saying and what their actions are. So if someone's saying something and you look at the body language you think that doesn't seem to like the match. I'm really I'm really excited to be here, guys. That's not really sure. Yeah, you know, and so this one thing I've learned being on stage and I have such an allergy to the know what all arrogant motivational speaker type is that if I
love this analogy, by the way, just imagine you bought like side of stage is sneezing.
You know, like allergy is such a lovely word.
Kind of like a an exaggerated reaction. Yeah, you can get hives, and it's not making them bad. It's just noticing in me, I have this allergy. And so I just noticed that when I say something on stage, or anytime and I realized, actually that didn't feel right. Oh era out in the moment, rather than try to be tried to try to persist with it.
What's the air out? What does that look like? I might say something like blah, blah, blah,
shit, actually, that sounded a little bit arrogant to
say to your, you say it to yourself
that same said, I know I you know, if more people kind of did that we get this kind of Messier, but possibly truer
sense of the world.
What's been the Have you had a moment on stage where you've had a bit of a panic attack where you know, as someone who was the Speaker of the year, what's been like one of those moments where you're like, this is the anti speaker of the year. That's all me is that like, what a comedian? Yeah, experiences? Yeah,
got this reframe to it like this kind of anti fragile perspective to it.
Because like, I find that when comedians, I love the moments when they're going off script, when someone's heckled, and you're watching them kind of react, and you realize, oh, cool for this snippet of time, this all super real. And you're getting a glimpse as to who they are in that particular glimpse into their character and that context. So anytime moments like that happen, like, I remember, I wore a vest once and I realized my torso is a bit longer than I think. So it has this kind of strip of you can see the shirt underneath. Yes.
I my jeans have gotten too big. And you know, when you kind of tighten up your belt, and it creates his own t
shirt poking out underneath the belt of the back. Yeah.
I realized this on stage. So you can't pretend that that's never happened. You can't pretend that the rest of the folks haven't seen it. So you just got to kind of own it. So I explained.
It's also in the shirt and someone, but people seem to love it. And it was a very endearing. And I think that I think people generally find it refreshing when people in suppose in positions of authority, like the MoMA show these glimpses of humanity. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
just think that's the biggest bomb.
wore the wrong outfit. Okay, well,
here's another one.
Have you ever legit, like, I've lost my train of thought. I mean, you know, when spring of the year for consistently doing that, but you know, early days, like I think about early days about show, there's all moments where you are getting pulled out of the mind,
you sweat a lot like I as soon as anything's going bad for me. Yeah, I'll probably actually feel it first, for the amount of sweating.
There are really bad times where you suddenly you notice you're sweating as I know that. And then suddenly, you're not in the moment attention to the audience, you're kind of on yourself, and you're kind of printing and you're old. And then the editor comes on, you've got this editing voice whilst you're in the present moment, and you're completely disconnected to all the nuances. And, and in the early days, everyone does this, they build too many slides. And they kind of reading off the slides. And what I've learned with them when it comes to presentations is I'm most comfortable without slides or with very few slides. And I never practice. And why not practicing is the key to being a really good speaker,
believe. And so what's the framework then, if it's not the practicing is working things.
Kind of you have your domains of knowledge and expertise, and you have senses of how you might frame it. And it's almost like you have a deck of cards of like different. What I made my Matt church calls IP snapshots intellectual property snapshot,
Seth Godin does this so well, like oh, Noes on the podcast with him, we could throw him anything. And it was sort of synthesized into an article in front of our
eyes beautiful. Whereas if you practice the presentation, and you've kind of got it time, a few times, when it's real time, you are so primed to notice something that's wrong, Mike is like, Oh, this moment is not going how I practice Yeah, therefore I'm not doing well. Whereas a scrap all that practicing things just know your stuff, get up there be present is a much better pathway
to you collaborate with many people.
Collaborations an interesting one I like if I was asking you guys questions, I'd be so fascinated to unpack like, what some of the clusters?
it's been interesting. For me, the whole collaboration thing has kind of been lone wolf in it for a long time. So I don't know how well that I play with others. But
we like that in school. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
just do my thing. So yeah, yeah.
I don't know how well I am at collaboration and also feel like people are a little bit too obsessed with the notion of collaboration. It's become a bit
of a popular now. games for a collab. Yeah,
well, we've found them to be Island. And I think it's the definition that people take into what you know, into a collaboration of what a collaboration actually,
well, it might you know, that I saw the scale once where there's like, contracting, cooperation, collaboration, and co creation. And co creation is fun. This is where this is where like things are flowing. And it's just Coco co created. I don't know the distinct nuance of what collaboration is, but a lot of people think collaboration is collaboration, but it's really like, either contracting or cooperating,
which is what we got to naturally feeling like my thinking was collaboration is we mutually agree on most things we we meet at the exact same Yeah. Which we discovered, and that maybe it's not the best way with how we both have we
someone to lead be able to say like, collaborating, co creation doesn't mean that everyone gets equal size across everything. Yeah,
that all the live performances I've done, where I've been kind of doing a joint keynote, a workshop with someone, the worst ones have been where it's 5050, we're both there's no clear leader and the best ones are all right, you laid the opening, I'll kind of come in with this bit, you laid that bit, and we'll kind of both see what happens and finish at the end. That's that's that's much better, like this kind of ebb and flow this.
can't be flat in terms of hierarchy all the time. Sometimes it needs to be some ebbs and flows. And the thing is just trying to make sure that the hierarchies aren't too fixed and permanent. So we can have this kind
I mean, you're lucky that you drive along. Any straight, you say, you know, big brands, and there's a good chance that you've probably worked with some of the top executives in those in those companies helping them with, you know, complex issues. What do you think are some of the universal issues that organizations are dealing with?
In a nutshell, everyone's way too busy. The hyper connection of the internet means that work isn't just happening at work anymore. People are working at homes, they're on their phones all the time. As a result of this, people are kind of feel that their time, Paul, and don't invest quality thinking into important topics. And they find themselves continuously doing things that provide a rich an immediate sense of progress, which could actually be a delusion of progress. So checking email, firing off emails, hosting meetings, doing all those things, just creates all this business noise. And the question is, is this moving us closer to future relevance? I'm not sure. Obviously, I've just slipped into
African I mean, what's the what's the?
How do you measure? The other bit? So I guess, like, when you're working with big business, the stakeholders want to be like, Okay, how are we going? And you've got a number of metrics that you could use? How does the measuring align with the new way of thinking of maybe not sending as many emails as we are? Yeah,
I think that I think that we need to loosen our grip on metrics a bit, I think we've become a little bit too metric obsessed. And this also relates to people that are overly optimizing their lives, you know, they've got apps for every single thing that they're doing. And they got all the numbers that can work, but can also get to the point where you're actually out of the moment, you're missing key things and you're not actually enjoying yourself. So loosen the grip on the metrics and create spaces to do more qualitative sense making. I'm not saying that metrics are bad. But sometimes we need to just check in with each other say for you guys, but this this thing, you could be looking just at the the numbers, right, but I'm sure that they're on the screen over there.
But I'm sure that in amongst that you also have moments where you're hanging out thinking, what what is this? So maybe we should do this? Or I know that you get particularly excited because you'll have conversations with different people asking what they think. And if they say, I'm not sure if that's a good idea, you'll be like, Yeah,
that's a great idea. Absolutely. And so
I guess the, the hard bit is intentionality, and consciousness. in some regards, don't you think it relies on measurement in being able to so when I think about being unconscious, it's not being aware of of what I'm doing. It's not having sort of the the key marks along the way to milestones to make sure that I'm doing the right thing? How do we stay conscious, intentional, without having to know that this is how many kilometers I walked.
And there's, there's like a calibration based upon what level of distance into the future you're looking at. So the further into the future, the fuzzier and more qualitative you want to be. And so, over a space of a year, choose a one word as a theme as a contextual theme to influence the types of decision you might make. But if you're looking at the next three months, or the next month, you might want to crystallize that a bit more into a project or something that will have a deliverable, something that will be done. And if you're looking at a daily or weekly level, you might want to be more focused on actions like I did this thing, like I'm doing this. And that kind of balances it out.
Josh and I are trying to intentionally create a business that is the one that you're saying is the the new white. How, if you're working for someone, that is the we're on slack until 11pm, you're expected to answer your emails every day. When you're in that environment. What's you how do you I mean, you're at the top talking to the people who run these companies. So you're doing it from the top of their culture makers. Yeah. But how do you if you're an employee, you know, Mr. 90 sevens on slack until 12? is absolutely me. It's not that we don't look at him best. He told him to do it. Now, but how do you? That's because that's how long these dates go. Yeah.
How do you counter it without getting fired? Like, yeah,
it's really tough. And that's a really important question about times. And I mean, the people at the top ought to be the culture makers. But the the paradox is a lot of people that have worked themselves into a position of power and authority within larger organizations have spent most of their career playing the old game. And in order to, to work in this new world, they need to dismantle the various structures that got them into the place where they are right now. And then you have these pockets of new ways of thinking in amidst the organization, which is just kind of working a little bit differently. But again, it's not easy if you're going to manage your breathing down your neck saying I need these reports and saying, I don't think this is meaningful at all. But so I don't know is the short answer to that. And but I do feel like what we're going to see over the next 10 years is this fragmentation is, the old monolithic, big companies are going to become more fragmented, smaller, and we're going to have more of a fluid network effect where it's about kind of who you know, the legacy of the work that you've done, and you'll just find yourself in different roles and positions. And the notion of a career path will be and, you know, humorous, and, you know, dated concept of our parents and all you much more about a collection of projects and things teams that you've been involved with at different points in time,
Cal Newport talks about knowledge workers. And it seems like you're a great example of a knowledge worker, someone who spends, you know, large amounts of time in deep work, you know, synthesizing your ideas, all of that type of thing is the
way in regards to the future with knowledge work, is there going to be a risk? Do you think that it's hard to charge for those sorts of things like what's the, what's the future of people who are making their money through coming up with ideas, and I would
hope that the future is a little less. And it goes back to that guru thing beforehand, I would hope that people become wiser to where we're not going to see a particular individual with this quarter charisma, get obscene amounts of money for essentially synthesizing other people's ideas, particular form, I would still feel hope that they'd be paid well. But I'd hope that everyone would be paid well, no matter what role they play. So I come back to things like roles, right? If we see the world, as you know, to quote Shakespeare, All the world's a stage and all the women and men and bad players, we see
this is a Shakespeare quote on the podcast, Episode Number 92. I'm
not well versed in Shakespeare, so
I think I mangled that. But if we say this, this kind of infinite game of which we all adopt a different role, we would do it where we don't different costumes, we play a different part in this grand pantomime, that is existence. And then then it becomes less important to kind of win in terms of the capitalist mode. And, in fact, you know, this is interesting, because we're not getting into post capitalism here, which I think capitalism is a dated model. We've got ecological sustainability, we've got inequality we've got alienation in the modern world, is post capitalism world. It's not to say that capitalism isn't important, but there are other types of capitalism and finances. One thing that you guys excel in is cultural capital. There's this notion that like your sense of like, doesn't buy a fucking
get you a bagel, but I think you get a bagel deal. Yeah,
which is five and dime bag delicious. Some of the best five and if you had five and dime bagel, I consider them they're as though they they stock to like 40 different cafes, actually, yeah,
they're based in Melbourne. Salted one's pretty Yeah,
I like they do like a bacon
and Chipotle, a maple sort of one, which is delicious. Two,
five and dimes is off brand. Is your brand for Dr. Box. Exactly. Anyway, we'll send them an invoice.
I think I think we're in the nascent stages here. And I think this is this is all good work. Yeah.
Are you excited about the future?
please don't say no.
It's Yes. And it's like, I feel like we're hurtling ourselves towards extinction. And we're bringing every beautiful species along with us. And at the same time, just simply default to that would be rather
like, so yes, infinite possibilities and wondrous opportunities offered by the internet, people co creating with each other.
Amidst the backdrop of, you know, concerning Doom,
I mean, what do you think about when you whenever I do things that are life changing for me, like big steps in life, I think that I start to go into the overthinking mode of being like, what does it all mean, when you recently bought a new place? And what that process? Does it go through the back of your mind? where it's like, Kim Jong Hoon, could fucking blow all this shit up soon anyway. And so what does it all matter?
Imagine you see me
thinking about that. Like,
what's it like? So we thought, yeah,
but it is. But it's also like, you know, do we really like, what's property going to be worth if what there's world,
And I think all of these kind of really mature thoughts to be having. And we just don't don't need to stay in there. There's this.
is this period of going through when you recognize the meaninglessness of things, but then, and that can be bleak. But then you will lies actually, but this tool, meaning we can't help but make meaning out of things. So even though there's a backdrop of meaninglessness, we can make things mean things, which means that we can actually, ultimately if we take all these trappings aside, we know that suffering is real. And if we can align our efforts in a way that reduces or mitigates suffering in the world, were doing something of meaning.
Your latest podcast episode, you were talking with a friend? It's not Amanda. It's Amanda. Amanda. nearly
got that. Good. And
you were talking about that you were having thoughts of the commercial viability, the next book, which you identified as the wrong thinking, going into an endeavor Josh and I talking about the podcast and the brand, we're building out and we have conversations about commercial viability or making money we do which I kind of feel like we work it out. And so we're not spending aware days trying to work out how to monetize everything. Yeah. What's What's your thoughts on things that we need to make money? And we do, we're spending a lot of time on this thing. Yeah. But it's counted to think about the money.
comes back to that beautiful paradox. And I think that you guys are doing this so well, like it's an it inspires me in the way that you guys go about this. So what we don't own any property.
I am. So
academic speak, what you guys are demonstrating there is a type of meta rationality, situational meaning making. So it's anti fragile. It's, it's where you're approaching things as what Nassim Taleb, the author of anti fragile, would call as a rational, irrational for Noah is someone who kind of makes sense of things as they go, and kind of puts pieces together rather than the tourist, which will map out a very, very specific plan of everything that needs to be done.
And I'm usually right on a red bus with.
And then this plan might be beautiful. And in a traditional sense, you'd have these business people say, Oh, good plan, but it can also be very fragile. It will take some someone to get on well, or something to not work, and then things collapse. So I think your approach is really quite sound, I think your distrust of whatever the conventional narratives are around, what you should be doing is also very wise, there's this, you guys spend enough time in this world to have a sense of things and you can kind of everyone can tell this, this kind of sense that I feel like they kind of selling out a little bit, I feel like the practice is showing in terms of their integrity to offering and that kind of intuitive sense checking if you guys keep that alive and not. And this is a risk. And I remember reading Jason freed the CO CEO of Base Camp 37 signals was how the chapter about how they don't have goals, they never have goals. And he recalled the one time that they did have goal for base camp certain number of users by a certain time, it led to them doing all sorts of things that enhance our brand damaging, like they'd push sales, they offer discounts that did all these things, just to rush to meet some arbitrary figure I took a bad deal.
That sounds like a good deal.
But we'll take it. So um, so yeah, I think the approach is good. Unfortunately, it's hard because it's because you're in an emerging pioneering field. There are other reference points that easily point to.
But if we just if we sense it based upon your protein synthesis of everything, you're, I think that way you guys are going about it makes sense. Or at least I'm saying that because I heard that write a book that's not commercially viable. makes sense to
mean the, that idea that you're the second or the underdog, like, there's always the examples of the hungry jacks or the optimists or the Pepsi, and being the second player and how that gives you the ability to innovate and be cheeky, and to do things in a different way. The fear that I have is, I guess, the more we don't want, the more that we can sort of say the more people that listen in the the inclination like it, there's a, we then tend to start asking the questions of like, we've got more people listening, we've got more to lose, we need to be thinking about our are the new audience, are they going to be resonating with the stuff that we spoke about six episodes ago? Should we be changing? How do you stay true to your plan, when you start to move up the chain from that second? Yeah,
that's a beautiful question. This is a philosophy that I try to hold on to, in that successes for losers. Yeah. And the notion that like be very distrustful of the notion of success, because as soon as you consider yourself access successful, you have something to lose. And and so this happens, I was chatting with a friend who just got a deal with a
signing with a literary agent, based in New York, and she then written more chapters, but the chapters her agent said, hang on, this has changed. You won because of this type of writing. But now you've gone all formal and, and stuff. And soon as you think, are we got more business. Now we don't do this thing properly, you might lose some of the magic that got you here in the first place. So a tentative thing, I think, if the metric is more, or the focus is more on progress, are we doing better than we did before that it being fixed on a particular thing? That might be helpful, what is better? I guess that's what we're trying to define is it's like, for us, it's the it's the hybrid. It's the proto synthesis, I guess, in some some way where it's like, we want to get the, we see ourselves as not the smartest people in the room potential. And so the idea of bringing the dumb and the smart and that like all of that stuff together, I know it's putting labels on it, but from a, from a way of thing, I would
describe it. I mean, that that's how that's how I actually feel about it's like, let's get different people with different varying levels of experiences. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, I, I would, I can imagine a world where like, you're just talking beforehand that Jordan Pederson was on q&a. I imagine folks like that next time, they're in Australia, and there'll be a time where like, all we gotta get on the daily talk show. Like, I can say, this kind of natural, organic growth. I know, for me, personally, because I've been on a lot of podcasts, it is so refreshing to chat with you guys. Because it feels so real. Whereas on many other shows, it can feel like you're doing some sort of CO like, I'm going to make you look good. You make me look good. And so yeah, and I think that you guys stay the course as you are. And you know,
I don't know, I don't Yeah, because
there will be a bunch of people a magic thing going. Yeah, because I think there's gonna be a bunch of people who would say are stick where it's like bringing them in to interview Mr. 97. And if we did, if we got Jordan paid at fact, could you imagine you're not hate us? And just keep your shoulders up? What does he say?
Tommy knows what he says, what does he say?
Stand up straight, put your shoulders back.
but there's also this thing
I've ever seen yet.
I bet there's also this thing like this within organizations in the corporate world there is this death of authenticity and congruence. Right? And I can imagine, I don't know, there's some sort of if there's something you're doing, I'm not sure how it translates. And I'd be very wary of business plans, but experimenting with little projects. Let's just see if that works over the next month or three. That doesn't drop it. I'm glad
it doesn't make sense to you because it doesn't make sense to us. For you Josh you did your podcast. Years and years ago was 10. episodes. Yeah Josh speaking. What? But think about the guy you were then to what we do now? Yeah. And what it was there a sense of thinking about what people wanted? Did you? What do you think they're learning there was,
I reckon it was an exit creative expression. And it just fit. And this is where I think a lot of people are getting podcasting now where it's like, this is a great opportunity just to meet with people. And so I think the hard thing is, as I go on and see more podcasts evolve, it seems like, that's the reason that people get into the game. And so it becomes the leading with I'm doing this because I want to meet with this person versus a curiosity. I think that's part of it. It's like curiosity is like, I can't I don't feel comfortable asking a person to say, Hey, can I just chat to you for an hour and just ask you sort of questions that could be confronting, but if I have a microphone, it seems like I can maybe get away with a lot this for me, creativity, and tools, mechanism for like a safety net for me to be able to ask things and sound dumb or get things wrong and be okay. Yeah, yeah. And,
and there's also from the other perspective, it's also quite nice to be able to do something that's one too many. Whereas, you know, my inbox is overflowing with no flying, I get, I get people saying, I'd love to shout your coffee and pick your brain. I think that's probably not going to be the best use of my time for an hour. But if it's like, hey, I'd like to, you know, would you like to be on the podcast? Because then they can ask me the questions, but then I know that the answer is going to help more than just one person. Yeah.
I mean, I think that even how you and I, Jason got in touch initially was through, I saw a talk that you did, and I was like, we need a reason to collaborate. I think that part of it is like at the beginning, these things aren't always clear. Yeah. And it's like trying to do you have any thoughts around how to identify? You want to reach out to people you want it? Like, how do you position it? How do you? How do you frame it to, to connect with people? I wish
know, I yeah,
I don't know, and particularly without relying on social media, it's because then what are you left with an email channel, I'd say there's this one guy once who sent me an email. And he had a little video that he put in there, totally personalized. And he had like the book, and he just talked about, he did all that, like he stroked my ego. Perfect, usually super effective. And then I caught up with him in New York when I was there. And, and I feel like, again, there's probably more than that human vulnerability of making the effort probably helps with connecting.
So many things apply timing. When you slip into someone's inbox, how did you guys do it?
Well, I think I think I just aim out. The good thing is, where I feel really lucky is that I've been doing the video stuff for a while. So I've created this thing outside myself, which is what I call like, my work. And so my work is almost
people saying, This is how this is what Josh is like. Yeah, like it's an it's a self expression. without me having to say this is the type of guy I am. So I can send like, I remember, I think I sent links to an Australian is a video I made and things like that. So Jason can look at and say, I people, you know Seth Godin always talks about people like us do things like this. And so I think that part of it is it's a process in the email of like, how can I show you the the similarities in each other? How can I show that we have similar taste? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
there's that hence, where we then get back into the whole painting, you know, the fact that the internet has this legacy, this these petrified snapshots of our path cells, that we can kind of influence and manage to some degree, but we don't also want to get too swept up in it. So you emailed you shed a few links. I remember I saw the video that you did of the comedian and stuff. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Simon Tyler, that was just off and then on the phone and good phone manner. So yeah,
we're actually we're going into more details. So you guys recently uh, you put out a video that Josh Yes, yes, collaborated or hope.
We had a child
with the evolution of
this digital thing. And when was it filmed? was in June, July?
Not June. Yeah, I'm trying to remember that was before I went away went away. It was a great experience that I loved with it is your willingness to sit on stuff
from it like the as a,
as a self confessed, procrastinate,
and lover of
thinking about things and moving things around. And it sort of becomes this game of chess where it's like, a little bit slower. For me, it was like a unique experience that you gave me to sort of allow that process. Yeah. Because when you started Josh was like, I work best in sprints. So we'll kind of get this thing filmed. And within a few days, yeah, we'll have a like a working rough draft, but it took it maybe seemed to be over a period of weeks. Yeah, filming was accumulated. And then of course, in amongst Josh being traveling overseas, and all that there's a snippets not bait, but the thoughtfulness that went into it is like, it's like the questions that you guys have on your show. There's Josh is there the camera. And of course, I have, in my mind a particular version of a narrative that I'd love for people to see you look at this confidence, authority and stuff. But then I also have enough distrust of that, because if I was just simply do that if I was to create this myself, I'd create this thing that I would I would load and be not willing to share. And instead, I think Josh is incisive questions and just presented a much more rounded and more human version of this.
of the approach that I take. And
well, that's co creation, and its finest you actually putting trust in what he does. You're bringing what you have, but I'm not saying yours is? Yeah,
was a really beautiful process. Because I think a lot of the times that I've when I've worked with folks, you know, you have a provider that is trying to like, give the client what they want. But often, the client doesn't really know what they want. And also, if they think they know what they want, it's not pretty often not really what they really need. Yeah. And so the trust thing is really, really handy, you know, to to actually be like, all right, this is co created here, I'm going to reveal bits of myself and you can hang on that.
parts of my identity and suffering. Yeah, and it flowed beautifully. That the funny thing is, I've got this wonderful short documentary, it's about nine minutes. It's beautiful. So artfully shot and like the as from a videography, filmmaking perspective, filmmaker perspective, it is beautiful the the kind of the lacing of the soundtrack and how the scenes thread and how you've got these juxtapositions and these like little hints and stuff, it is it is a work of art, and I am so so I'm beyond chuffed with it like it is, it is so beautiful. The thoughtfulness that is baked into every single element of this is wonderful. And still, I find it kind of awkward to
No, and I love it so much. But there's something funny about, hey, here's a here's a short documentary about me. And the process I take towards and you know, during the keynote was actually made.
I mentioned in my newsletter, but with a bunch of other things. haven't shared it on LinkedIn. And it's there on YouTube, but I haven't really promoted it. Yeah, I don't know
why I think it's that well, Tommy and I talked about this a lot, which is that getting a video done for your company or your personal brand, what it however you want to sort of phrase it, it is hard to then put it out into the world. Without it looking like a big promo piece. I think that the thing is, what I loved with the processes, you allowed me to identify the narrative for you didn't dictate the narrative, you didn't say, I need to look this certain way. And so I had the framing of I really liked Jason, I want to celebrate Jason, I want to end celebration for me is that we are these complex people, and that we're not just this, like kicking goals all the time. But there's levels of if you want to celebrate someone doing a talk saying that struggle or saying that self doubt, actually makes it I think a lot more powerful.
And you're also very good at protecting the integrity of of that as well. Because I remember there were times where I'm like, oh, I've got this, like I'd met up with just a prepared these things. I thought it might be good to, you know, to talk through the steps that I take. And I they're all written out and judges like, Oh, yeah, maybe we'll do some other things. Kind of deliberately didn't go to the, to the prepared stuff. And that allowed us to capture more of the real stuff. Yeah,
well, if you think about it's like, if you right handed, and you're making a video that requires both hands to be used, it doesn't make sense to lead with the strong, strong. And so for me, it was like I knew that you're comfortable in this realm of you understood your material. And I had no doubt that you're going to be able to nail it, because that's what you do in a presentation. So it's about for me, it's like leading in the ambiguity leading with the stuff that makes us uncomfortable. Because then we can have so much fun in the other bit which, which comes easy. Yeah.
And if you're listening to this, watch our YouTube channel or go to our YouTube channel for slash, the daily talk show, we're going to put the video that we're talking about at the end of this podcast. But before we get to that, you released a book. What's the difference between like in terms of how you fell through books, putting putting out the second book, The first book and the second book versus this? Like, did you have the same anxiety? The same thoughts? Yeah, there's something and it's, I think, we just need to get better at that, like I,
you kind of need to become a slave to past self, I need to champion this work, even though my thinking is of hope, since that's been published. And so there, I guess there's more of me in the videos and the book, it's easy to kind of just start talking about the ideas and stuff. But you you're actually seeing me on the screen. And it's probably all the primal awkwardness that we have with hearing our own voice recorded or seeing ourselves as I know that, is that what I look like? Is that what I sound like? So there's all that but it's a beautiful video. I love it. The documentary is wonderful. And I'm just really curious as to what these odd psychological quirks kind of, but I think I think you're right, like that honor. Thank you for sharing that after the video is lovely. It's so much easier when I can encourage other people. Yeah.
What's the, your palate for feedback? Like, like,
I disable comments on YouTube? Why'd you do that? So it's interesting because I am, I'm haunted by these really old TEDx videos that I spoke at 10 expert like, and maybe 12 years ago, 11 years ago. And because it's got the most of us, it kind of goes up to the top when
And then you have people kind of critiquing my thinking, my style and so on. And it just reminds me of like, a self that I no longer em anymore. And yet I know what kind of forms of first impression photosynthesis. That's right. Yeah,
different to who you were 12 years ago. And what we're different today to who we were yesterday. I'm pretty simple. Yeah.
Mr. 97? He's had some serious. He's a different man. Yeah.
He seemed to synthesised he's done. Yes, actually. Yeah, yeah.
And so but it's also, I know that you when you publish your video with the comments, you're gonna get a lot of the nice kind of generic comments like, oh, wow, that's great. So cool. And that's there's a saccharin quality of LinkedIn where everyone can post any bullshit. And people are going to come and say, oh, wow, so awesome. The circle jerk, which we spoke about on our first episode, we need to mention that term a little bit to circle jack, is that you spend enough time in the circle jerk and you realize, actually, there's a better way. Yeah,
of asking your family for feedback on it. Yeah. Yeah.
Unless you asked my mom.
Let me know. But
she's actually supportive. Yeah.
And so what's the way where is the place for feedback in this whole process?
Um, well, I'm very not on your YouTube video. Yeah, I have, I have like, like, I make a sign I have Ward's against unsolicited feedback or like, people give me unsolicited feedback. And I've learned to kind of keep it trapped in this nebulous field. So I don't actually take it into my psyche. Because some of the feedback I get from my speaking, was like, You speak too fast. You say I'm and you need to sound more confident, you need to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I learned that ignoring all that stuff is what led me to get keynote speaker of the year and, and I know that often people feel the need to give advice and offer perspective that you haven't asked for. Or if I ever need to ask for advice or perspective, I'll be very specific in what I'm looking for. So I might share a chapter. And I might be something like, I just want, you know, how does this feel I'm a little bit worried about the tone here. I don't want to sound condescending, or something. And, and then I'm getting feedback filtered through that lens, rather than talking about the idea itself, or I'm
pretty self critical. Like I think, over the time, I've I observe what I'm doing. And I and I make the changes along the way, is there a time to actually just go the opposite direction to what you normally feel and actually take it on?
Not the random, I think that you mean, but the whole that he has this book called ignore everybody and 39 other keys to creativity,
and there's all these book.
Sounds good. And I think that if we acknowledge that, like, I have more than enough self criticism, like, I don't need additional stuff on top, like, I'm super critical with myself, which is an interesting thing, that self improvement is self loathing in a way. So there's, there's got to be some bits of yourself that you don't quite accept a feel is good enough if you want to improve. So it's that juxtaposition of self loathing, self loving, and so on. But, you know, to accept feedback and stuff like that, if I'm entering a whole new domain, like I've been considering the the benefits of going into something or doing some improv, improv training, like improvisation, that'd be fine. Would you be cool? And also, like, I'm willing to suspend any of my own assumptions and stuff in that area? Because I don't really know enough and refund to play with. So
I would love to what what you do improv. You should do like a full like
next documentary. Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that you like, talking about you? I think you'd be great.
Well, maybe. I mean, I tried with the whole interview with Mr. Nice. You and I Josh
getting better improvising.
I like the idea of entering into different personalities as well like different characters. Yeah. I do. Can we potentially, I want to ask about social media. And then I wanted to maybe we could finish on Mr. 97. If you could think about a scene and give us all different characters. So basically, the location and then give us each character in that location. And then we're going to finish the show within improv saying the video could be a sharp
supermarket, and I am the supermarket attendant is that we call it
a silly idea.
props, I think about 97 bit
outside bagel shop.
Absolutely not. Yeah. Could you imagine? We'll leave that tonight, seven,
social media stuff. I had a moment yesterday where I realized, I have retired from social media, I put into the, in November, I put into the description of everywhere, I've retired from social media, you can visit my website, my website hasn't stayed as current, as I had this sort of idealistic view that I was going to be doing deep work every Sunday, and it was going to be raining. And I was going to be sort of London, and it was going to be, you know, I was going to be part of the 5am Club writing these muses. Anyway, that hasn't happened. But yesterday, I deleted from LinkedIn, on the description about retiring from social media, and made a few adjustments and started engaging again, yeah, I mean, you're a you're a social media, I
wouldn't say critic, but you are very critical of social media and where it sits, what's what's your thinking? Yeah,
I feel like social media platforms, as let's talk about allergies, I know need to go in there kind of holding my breath. And like this is pungent, you know, I go into the space, and I just try to do what I need to do down and get off their
butt epi pen in hand.
But it's kind of awkward because the algorithms reward those that are spending more time and then so I might make a post and share it to the 8000 folks on LinkedIn. And that only gets seen by a small proportion. But the old man who has a couple of thousand, but it's on the air every day, he shares it in 1500 people see it show so so there's this thing like, I don't know, can you When do you want to win all those things? And the answer is generally not really.
want to win? I think is a very interesting question. Because I think that confidence wise, Tommy and I like, yeah, we can win, we can wait, there's no doubt that we can win all these different battles. But I think it's like, which fucking battle to win it because we could win in revenue, we could bring in more money, we can have more clients, we can be working seven days a week, no problem. But do we want to win that
What's the prize for winning? That's the very between that, yeah.
maybe think about
social media crops, the moment and stuff. So the prize will be that spending a lot of time you find so imagine Yeah, and for me, the cost of this stuff is that I'm not writing my next book. And that feels like the most important thing for me to do at the moment. So in terms of social media, my stance currently is it's almost like I've created avatars of myself. And this is like, I'm going to be in the dungeons and dragons wizard speak here, right? You like you cast like an illusion or an apparition of yourself, and they kind of program to just, you know, to be like a relay to occasionally share things of importance, but then I'm not actually there. I'm not present. I'm not in the platform itself. And then I have enough like, Ward's in place. So that if like the the alerts, like someone's mentioned you on Twitter, or someone's like, liked or commented on a post that you made on LinkedIn, I don't see that. And it's just only occasionally when I dip in there, once or twice awake. The thing is, I don't even think that is useful. And like, why do I like
Facebook? You know,
I've deleted Facebook. But the thing is, like, this is a good example where it's like, the video that I you know, we co created, it's like, I'm like, I actually want to, I want to share this and
so I Then am I okay, well,
maybe LinkedIn has a place
where there's this thing to like, I want to celebrate your the filmmaking that you've done, like the beautiful thing that you've put together. And that allows me like more motivation. Like Actually, I'm actually this is good. I can honor Josh through doing this, that gives me an access and a motivation to get on there. And, but there's also the knowingness of like, how effective Will this be? Because I haven't really been you know, bowing myself to the algorithms on the different platforms. So
I can algorithm
because it's all these things do service if we do it in a way that then works for us as individuals because YouTube is over think social media and but then does it you not to overthink it maybe but then it's it's it's we
I remember I saw your fishing video
about fishing before I knew of you like it just it just very Wikipedia Did you say
like it appeared on LinkedIn and stuff is doing the rounds and stuff. And it's cool. And then when we met in real life, and he's connect and stuff, and it helps I
was all about
pushing it. So yeah,
these things do serve a
it's like saying Josh about the person works in you threw you off great, like you get a sense of where he's from that's helped me create that personalized content. To then when I meet somebody, they kind of get a gauge of who I am. Yeah,
could we do that? Could TJ could you have done that without social media?
No, I don't think so. You don't think I think I've been a really great networker and I've had a huge network from when I was young based on going out speaking favor my confidence and just my I love having conversation. But it is heightened through social media
the risk is right i think i you go all platforms and become a bit dilute your really excelling at any of them. Or you choose the platform to do really well in but like what we're seeing with Facebook, what's happening with Instagram, what could happen with LinkedIn, the rugs could be pulled underneath, and this little empire that you've built, because you don't really own the media there or in the followings one day, you can find yourself in a really fragile position where it's disappeared.
Because as we know, there's always a rug sale.
Well, the other thing, too, is it's like I think you should be confused into believing that you're being strategic around say Instagram specifically, that idea of like, you know what, I'm going to decided I'm focusing on getting rid of everything I'm just going to stay on Instagram is is based on the idea that Instagram is the thing right now. Right? So it actually strategically you could say it makes sense. But the reason you going on Instagram is just because that's where the likes that coming in. That's where the endgame. I
wouldn't be surprised if at some stage in the future, there's some blockchain Yes, platform that will become the thing.
I just don't know where it is or what they
will be overthinking that to.
coin. I still don't know why I think that then it would be going
to get in.
No, I think that it would it would get to get to a point where
Yeah, like, I think that we
I mentioned, the curator part will be interesting, I could imagine like within blockchains. And this initially, I can imagine it being afraid for all everyone, you know, connecting and following to everything. And then we'll realize that, okay, we only have the capacity to follow 100 people before diminishing returns, or it starts getting hard. And that's where I think the place of curators like site, the daily talk show been like we spoke about these things on the show, and we're starting but I think that the risk is that we then become the same thing that Instagram is which is we are connected trolling the world in which our listeners or viewers say the word
curation is good. I mean, I think that what's interesting in amongst all this social media mess, there are some things that really haven't changed like an email list. I think podcasts have been relatively kept pure and and corrupted by advertising and algorithms. And I think that the there's more than enough content on the internet Now, I'm not saying let me rephrase that. There's a lot of content on the internet. That could be more good content. But I think what's lacking nowadays is context for us together and I think we're going to start seeing this resurgence of people going out camping together or having like a little festivals and the stars are saying these things that people thought would go away. Now that's actually this kind of quiet resurgence so this renaissance of of meaningful live gatherings that complement the online worlds that we live
it's interesting because there's a there is a sense that we just want to disconnect from all of this and know those things this really sort of the representation of of what that is improvised ation time, Mr. 97 What's the location just I will just say,
I don't ever
what am I doing
one? Okay, couple of quick principles of improvisation, but it was like yes. And so you just got to say yes to everything. Yes. And your primary thing is to make others look good. Yeah,
sorry, opposite of our friendship.
So you need to support this. Yeah,
this is I got no idea why this popped into my mind but Josh you're a shop assistant at buntings. Akai gronk is meant to know everything about everything. And tell me tell me you're coming into buntings to pick up stuff and Jason you're a
try to someone coming past giving unsolicited advice because Josh doesn't know what he's doing.
Yeah, yeah, and just talking a bit of rubbish and then Janssen you come in and yeah,
Minister Thank God you're here.
Tell me you start
excuse me right Do you know where the you know those things where you like knock them into the wall but you've got the cord that goes through and it helps just keep it on the wall
like a dog's
nails I think what you're throwing
there needs to be
this 10 seconds it's gonna be 10 seconds okay. Between Josh
is gonna struggle a little bit like
to as soon as I think that I've said something that you can then add to
potentially I'm just enjoying the Yeah, exactly.
So but you haven't even
I don't think you've into the same Yeah, it's like you walk up media you're like
Oh, hang on He's my boss is paying for the time right? Yeah, yeah,
I'm approaching Josh Hey,
hey go man. I can I might just need some sillies all clear what oil is that when it Sally's all clear. made that would either be
six, seven or eight depending on the length?
What are you looking to clear?
So what I'm trying to plug is
600 right. That's the one
yeah, it depends
on what he's looking to clear. So what I'm looking to do is fill up a hole that my son punched in the wall. Okay, I would definitely Karate Kid all night. You should have your kids are can six would have it but I got a dog. Yeah. So which I was I'm unsure six, seven or eight.
I'm thinking maybe six
now that I think about it. Yeah. Yeah,
bagel shop. bagel.
Tommy actually goes the bunny. Yeah,
definitely. I mean, I've been what was it?
Was an AD
AD for it. Anyway, that's exactly talk so we gotta if you're listening, go over our YouTube channel and look up this episode 292. We're about to play the video that Josh and Jason co created the documentary. Nine minutes. What would you enjoy?
Okay, yeah, today we talk show higher the daily talk show.com if you want to send unsolicited feedback Otherwise, we'll see tomorrow say guys