#232 – Talking Chang With Maven/

"0:06
Wait a minute, cross face.

0:11
conversation, sometimes

0:14
worth recording, with Josh Janssen and Tommy Janka

0:17
daily Talk

0:18
Show Episode 232. Is that right?

0:21
Yeah, I'm trying to mount my microphone, you get to 32 or

0:26
31. This morning, actually,

0:27
you would know this voice previously cycling Maven.

0:33
Dr. Mark, what would you call yourself?

0:35
Well, well, that's actually funny. It's just mark Ferguson on YouTube. So it's just my name. But the hard part was transitioning from the ad cycling Maven handles on social something that's like Mark Ferguson, Scott lightest pretty common now.

0:53
And I put under school mark for that was just tears. I couldn't even look at it.

0:58
Either. They kept the I've always wanted the people who grow us huge, huge social media is that it's their account. And they have some really wacky username. Yeah. Like, there's heaps of them that you have the underscore at the front and there. So there is an element of it doesn't matter. Yeah, saying is you had already built one, but you built it. You built it on a really good piece of land, essentially, that you had to change to a suburb that you weren't happy with. But it was still the same river house it

1:27
just gone straight into real it just made the website

1:32
to be relatable. I got the shit paid out of me. Because I rocked up to this house party on the weekend. In a full blown suit I can attend from a wedding. And I just see this guy Heckle me. The real estate agents, the rod

1:46
Scott, Scott that

1:48
definitely had that. But even though it's a good looking suit, you're still at a place in a in a where everyone's just totally casual. You look like a realist. You died. You look like a traveling style.

2:02
Isn't that what you're doing?

2:05
Just comes driving the podcast and

2:08
absolutely. Change the handle

2:10
is something that wasn't suck.

2:12
So what is what's your current handle?

2:14
on just my but I'm just yeah, it was cycling Maven. So obviously I've just changed the arm just Maven. And I think that's got a ring to it.

2:22
Yeah, yeah. And so we went one lot. What was the last episode? You're on our podcast? It was before?

2:30
Yeah, it was a pre pre Europe for

2:32
you. Must have been just yeah, it was if you just type in cycling Maven. In fact, it was the week before you went to Europe. Because you were rushing around

2:44
these podcast series. Yeah. So that you didn't have to do it from buddy, Venezuela?

2:48
Yeah. That's what we ended up having to do from Venezuela as well. But we just got to break it out with some some guests.

2:56
What's changed since we last spoke

2:59
so utopian specifically about the cycling man now just fucking everything. Just

3:03
give us a right well, I want to see how you talk about things.

3:07
Well, you know it on the site, just give people listening who don't know what I do. YouTube channel. So I used to be suckling naive, and I've done over 600 episodes of blogs, traveled around the world doing cycling stuff, but eventually like cycling, man, I'm sick of talking about it. You know, so when your name yourself when you go and associate your name yourself at specific sporting something? Yeah. You've got to talk about that thing all the time, because that's where you're following that. And I had to change it. Man, I just had to do it too. Because there's more to cycling and in life. Absolutely. I know you. I remember, we spoke maybe a couple months ago, when you were just doing it. And you were saying that you weren't sure how people going to react in your video was like telling you may want about telling people? What's the difference in what you thought? how people would react versus how to really a good question. I mean, I thought, obviously, the crew when you used to something you used to a brand, it's almost like your daily talk show jingle. You know, like, I know it off the top of my head. Now I'm singing it in the car almost on the way here? Not Not quite, but I know it, you know. And so when you change your brand, suddenly from what your audience is following to something else, it's a massive risk, right? Because you built you built this brand over a number of years. And so it's a risk and you don't really know this whole social media thing. We don't even we don't know, none of us really know what we're doing. We're just winging it.

4:30
The reality is it's deeply connected to you. And so the change isn't just let it be like a it's probably the similar reality to a name change, like by late by law. So going in changing my name from top Thomas to Tom to Timmy, but it's not.

4:47
The thing is that it's not just a name change, though. Because what you've inevitably done, say let's say if we use the analogy that real estate analogies play,

4:57
I wasn't actually

5:00
results are

5:02
real today real estate Come on.

5:05
These eyes, that's a challenge and he's accepted.

5:07
No. Well, you've you've essentially walked away from you were real estate Maven. And then you've, you've said I'm not real estate Maven any more. Which do you think that it puts a negative light on other real estate agents who like a hybrid like you moving away from us, and they see it as a bit of a personal attack on?

5:29
Yeah, I totally see. And that was one of the the problems that I originally had with changing the name. I didn't want to discredit cycling, or anyone who is invested just in cycling, but for me, it wasn't working. The other thing is Maven, anyone who doesn't know what a Maven is, if your Wikipedia it's back in the day, when I name this channel, it's an expert in a particular field who seeks to pass on knowledge to others. And the truth is, I'm not an expert. Inside right there was a bird or

6:01
more a maverick. Maverick Maverick, Maven, Logan, Paul.

6:07
Yeah, to be honest, mavens fucking great because Guru is stinky.

6:10
Gets teased. It's a it's a Yiddish word. Actually. It's not even in Maven yet. Jewish word. Yeah. Just you know, incidentally, I'm just gonna throw this

6:20
ball. You're fucking dropping truth bombs.

6:22
And so the head of people react. Yeah. When you when you did it.

6:27
So yeah, that's, that's

6:30
already so basically people. There's various

6:34
trolls. So you know, it's funny you say that because podcasting is great, because you can say your piece you can have a bit of Chang with some mates. And then bang, you put your thing out and you don't get much feedback. Hold that

6:43
thought Chang.

6:45
Chang. So Chang is like talking Chang I like talking shit.

6:48
You keep saying that to me. Like you're talking chatting like you're answering the question. So Chang is talking to us in Chiang me? Well, it's funny. It's actually a Yiddish word.

6:56
We sort of my mates and I, you know, when we get paid, don't have a few drinks. We're talking Chang and I were talking left hand at Swahili. So you know, like, say,

7:07
Healy for podcast was a bit too long

7:08
years too long. And I actually have not, I've got a podcast now. And I've named it Tony Chang. So

7:13
it's a great brand in the gronk.

7:16
Because that was the because Mark sent me a text message with the artwork. And I had an anxiety attack, because I was like, I love the artwork. But do I explain that I don't know what Chang is. And given that that was the name of your podcast, so then, well,

7:31
pretty good daily talk show.

7:34
And I'm actually flabbergasted that you're searching for that on social Yeah. All that you know, because you got the Twitter handle stuff. I don't know how you got that. Yeah,

7:43
that's crazy. It was very good. But the thing the thing was that I when I was actually trying to find this Chang reference, I ended up landing on one of your videos anyway, was like, I think it was I thought it must have been a reference to Thailand Chiang Mai or because I think it was in Thailand that you we're talking Chang Yeah, that's right. Which is fucking fusing. But it's got nothing to do with Chiang Mai.

8:04
I think it was we were on the booze we're not we're drinking chant the chunky beers. And someone said stop talking Chang. And I like john Lithgow actually made a mine from Perth. Just an absolute is not a comedian, but he should be. But he I think he came out with it. So I stole it.

8:22
No, I like it now. Well, I'm glad he wasn't talking Chang Yeah. All right, Kenny back podcast. I mean, the

8:28
YouTube so the YouTube we're talking about the height. So you as you as everyone knows, you get just absolutely loose cannons on on

8:36
on YouTube, filter it? Do you get? No, because I noticed with the Mandela podcast, YouTube comments, they were all really nice. But I saw that there was a different different amount of numbers in the total. So I would say like 98 comments, right? And then you would click on recent comments are what about no drop down to 89 as if there's been some that have been flagged like he's given got a filter that if someone says fuck wit that just doesn't post? Have you got those filters, you they naturally set it up. And so if there's swear words or things like that, they will naturally filter through to review comments. I don't have anything like that. I just, you know, all the any engagement is good engagement on YouTube. And it's actually for the algorithm as well. If there's engagement, so if someone even clicks the dislike button, it's a good thing for video. Any interaction with video is a good thing. So you

9:27
so do you, in that case, allow this negative feedback? Yeah, I'd allow negative feedback, but I will I did go through a phase there was a little bit sensitive when when I went to Europe last year, we had a Kickstarter so we put a Kickstarter together to our fans, and we said Listen, you guys chip into the Kickstarter will make blogs from Europe. So you guys pay for it and we'll go make some video content for you. And there was a lot of people that criticize me you know, saying I was money grubbing and stuff so I got a little bit sensitive when they are criticizing me through you know, some nasty comments.

9:59
And you also mentioned they reached they said should about a Hammond as well on the also can I say yeah, well you said it last episode. I

10:05
yeah. Yeah. So someone said the exact so obviously in Europe, you're on the opposite times in thing to put it into Australia. So I woke up in the morning one day after posting a video and the night before I woke up to the top comment on my

10:21
video. That means people have liked this I

10:23
people have liked this comment right here. Sorry. Hannah needs a cock Eros.

10:26
Oh, no, I didn't say that. I would like that. That's right. I think I've been told to believe you wrote that now.

10:33
Fuck with someone wrote on a haunted house or scary house video that I did. I was looking through the house. The only thing scary about that video is you girlfriend, people. In fact,

10:43
people are no comments are horrendous. And you know what? It's not the outright main comments like that. It's the it's the passive aggressive little tease comments that you get, you know, like, like, this is the other thing right? Where I'm a video creator. I know. I've made 600 videos on I had a micro fucking video. Okay. I don't need you, Joe, random coming on and telling me that's a good video. But I think you should have done this.

11:08
Yeah, the people always have an opinion. And they're the ones not in the arena. fighting the the lion. I think that the heartbeat of feedback. Who's the lion and the trolls are neutral? No, it's just the it's probably internal like that. If I need to go back to the metaphor, it is. The line is the internal height or the internal noise because to put out 600 videos, there's a lot of fucking are not good enough. This is shit. It's not gray, you know, all that stuff?

11:38
Yeah. And I'll tell you what it is. It's it's just wanting to be noticed. So I find that a lot of these guys make these comments, just so that the person notices them either gives it a love or responds to them. You know? So all the negative stuff. Yeah. Nice to inside a bit of action.

11:56
And so what was the was their feedback of that? That is hurtful, hard to read. But he's actually correct.

12:04
Yeah, there. There is. Sometimes with the Kickstarter thing, there was a little bit of it's sort of, it's sort of struck a chord a little bit because it was difficult. So for example, we're getting some feedback that we weren't creating the content that we promised. But the thing is, when we went to Europe, we realized that it was actually a lot more difficult traveling. I mean, you guys know you create videos, imagine traveling with all your equipment, going from day to day to day, you've got no internet access. You're trying to make a video sitting in a toilet somewhere, trying to edit this video, just don't let it you know, wherever in the car even running out of battery. I mean, it is logistically a nightmare to create videos on the road. And so but we did promise we'd make these videos, you know, so there was a little bit of that that sort of came back to bite us.

12:52
Did you feel like you needed to apologize? Did you say sorry? Well, how do you feel? I didn't

12:57
say sorry. But we still created the money videos like an EOS. Most of our followers, they said they said we're great videos. Yeah.

13:04
And under the circumstances we did really well. Yeah. But there was a little bit of that, but mostly just stupid comments. Yeah, like stupid, nasty shit. And coming back to changing the name from cycling. Maven, I think there's a little bit of legacy that I want to get away from, from that as well. Is it legacy? The audience though? Are you guys? Can you change the name? Can you change, like, if you if part of it is that you've had a bunch of fights at a cafe. So you go to cafe and there's like a bunch of fighters that can happen. I'm previously I'm actually listing this cafe. I'm a real estate and real estate analogy. Now imagine you're going to cafe a bunch of backwards come in, like cause trouble changing the name of the cafe when all the remaining people still there? And do you feel a bit of that? Do you feel like you've changed the name, but I feel the same night?

13:54
And that's a good question as well, what I feel as though I've done with the name change, and more. So is just open up my scope of topics to talk about. I mean, I think I've done the cycling thing to death. And I think over 600 videos, you I mean, what else can you talk about? What else can you talk about in cycling, you know, the new, you know, the main, like tie pressures and shit, like that's been done to death. So I think now I can talk, I can start the podcast I can talk about, I can do tutorials, and you can talk about

14:22
anything I can do one thing I love, the reality is I've spent a lot of time trying to work out how to build an audience and speaking to people within audience, and some of the suggestions have been like, find your niche, your niche, you know, find something that you can then visit every time and then it's interesting, because that's only just one truth. And then you've got this other truth based in the context of the last, you know, five, six years, or whatever it is to be saying, I actually don't want a niche. I want you've built the audit, you've built an audience. And now you're trying to open it up a bit more

14:59
thought about it. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. And yes, I do believe in building it. I mean, that's why my audience is really there from the from the cycling stuff. But I think once they get to know you as a person and realize that there is more to the, to the show. You know, I think it opens up your scope to a bigger audience, but again, are they going to stay? And that's the question I've had, we've had a small drop off. I've got 50,000 subs on YouTube, we've had about 1000 people leave ever since I announced the name change. And every video we every video, we might there's a few the drop off. But I think that's not their cup of tea. Yeah, absolutely. You know, so that's okay.

15:42
So do you think that it's almost like the niche to me strategy, it's like start with a niche yet build the buy in on me and what I'm doing, and then slowly introduce them to this extra complexity that is Maven, and what you what you do and

15:58
other and other topics, you know, and I think yes, I think there that's happening, but who am I to say whether that's actually going to work? Because at the moment? It's not? I mean, it will it isn't it isn't. Most people are you know, if you look through my the end of cycling Maven video, most people were very encouraging now like yet, I'm looking forward to the next thing. But having said that, if you look at our stats and our numbers, we're still getting the views and stuff. And we're getting more listeners on the podcast. But we are getting a drop off in subscriber rates on YouTube.

16:29
So Josh is off social media. And I've been thinking a lot about it. You're detoxing

16:33
as required. Not don't

16:35
say quit Okay, we're tired. He wants to potentially have a comeback. In he's in he's

16:44
got a fucking you can come out over time. I could. Potentially I think that'd be pretty quickly something a bit sleazy really severing the top quitting I retiring. The reason I use the word retiring is because I feel like I've had a really good life on social media. Yeah, I've enjoyed quitting feels really negative, you quit from a job. I'm retiring from the whole fucking thing.

17:05
So So talk to me about that. Because I often think about this myself. Yeah, right. I lie in bed at night. And I look at you know, now with the shutdown of cycling, Maven, and I'm doing other stuff. I've still got a lot of cycling stuff because of algorithms that keeps coming up at my feet, even though I've changed my name. And it's also I mean, I'm like, I don't want to look at Socrates yet. I want to look at something else I want look at surfing, for example, right? But you look at the cycling crew in the in the cycling world. And I'm like, I don't I don't want to see these guys want to bloody cancer, my cancer as well.

17:37
Yeah. Well, I think there's the at that moment, you're being the consumer, not the Creator.

17:43
So it just I think what you've done Josh, what was their IRA? Or because fucking Maven says he doesn't want to use a stand because he's good. And he literally said yes, while having the microphone over his head. What do you mean? He just said, Yeah, he just said yes, speech said it like this.

18:02
I see you're rolling your eyes, right?

18:05
knows exactly what the fuck you did, didn't you straight away.

18:12
I'm the one wearing the headphones.

18:15
So the consumer stuff. I think from my observation, what Josh has done is saying he's reducing his consumption, which comes with the bottle, you know,

18:28
so when I when he says reduce consumption is saying that the reason I got rid of the account was to reduce overall consumption. I don't all i have i deleted Instagram completely. But no, sorry. Well, now when I say that, when you go to Josh Janssen, on Instagram, it says it's a bio that says, retired from social media, creating things at Josh janssen.com. And I have removed all of the photos or the post. So if someone clicks on me, they're not going to see anything of my power on Instagram, the only thing they'll be able to do is go on social go through to my Josh Janssen calm. So really, that's, that's vetting people from seeing your stuff. It's not vetting you from saying and being a consumer, or so I've also deleted Instagram. So I'm, I'm not logging in, I'm not saying dams, I'm, I only just re downloaded Instagram, and put the daily talk show on there, just because I see that as a podcast thing. And I'll just post something, and I'll just be in that little world, I'll just look at the post, we've done in the comments, and consume and do stuff on there. But I will actively not click through and fall into the fucking rabbit hole that is clicking on buyers clicking and

19:50
actually don't think we think about the strategy that we're implementing with being a creator. So you, I don't know how much you've thought about I've been thinking about a lot. So my hypothesis is, what we know is that if you don't choose a strategy, it's still a strategy, to not focus on what you really want to achieve with it, how much you want to create, and then you just start posting that is a strategy, right? But I think that strategy is dictated by the social platforms, the algorithm, the algorithm, the feeling that you get from something, you know, likes, from the tension from how many subscribers you got. So that's what dictates the person strategy, who doesn't choose?

20:29
Yeah, I'm gonna do Instagram TV, because Instagram TV is available to me. Rather than thinking about everything being an actual question of like, does this filter through with what I want to do,

20:41
and the benefit is for the platform. And sometimes the byproduct of the benefit for the platform is someone winning, getting, you know, a million followers on Instagram like, but that's so rare, like from a percentage point of view that is so low to actually get into that success. And so choose it and what I see Josh doing, and the pushback he's had for people about getting rid of it, all he's doing is choosing a another strategy. That isn't what the status quo isn't the status quo. And so it's really fascinating to think about, if you were to limit what platforms you're on, because I can 15 over the last 10 years that I've actually been posting on, you know, like, 18 accounts across all of these. So who's How do you? If the, you know, how do you find success across 18? Different things? it's spreading your focus? Yeah, same time you did. Right. And and it's, it's thinning out your resources? Well, we've only got limited time. But there's a not I think there's a number of things going on here too, because we get it's these social media. apps are designed to keep us from creating, I mean, most people are consumers. Yeah.

21:47
And there's, you know, very few people that are actually creators, and I can so I can see marriage in that. One thing I'd be questioning is, are you you're creating a brand yourself on on the daily pod cast. So what if people want to sort of what if they get hooked on Yeah, you know, Want to learn more?

22:05
I reckon that. So I read deep work by Cal Newport, I don't know if you've heard of that book. He was talking about the difference between tape work and shallow work. And I just think that this stuff that I can post on Instagram, Instagram, is almost too easy. Everyone can everyone can post on social media. There's no real skill to it. So what I'm trying to do is only focus on high skill, content creation. So writing longer form, making video content doing the podcast, and thinking that that is if people are left with wanting more, but I'm still being consistent. I think that that's that's a win.

22:46
And I think you can only think that's a bad strategy, if you think the opposite is the better strategy. So you think it's better to post on every single platform? Post trying? He does many bit like, but then that if you think deeply on that is just that you obviously think that's correct. And a lot of people think that's correct, because it's how it's like a logical way to go about it. Right? Yeah.

23:10
Personally, some some people make it work, too. I think the thing is that I've got the luxury of not having an audience. Yeah, it's a lot harder for you, because you've built an audience, and you've made it work. And you've and so it's, for me, I'm like, Okay, well, I'm in the unique position of, I don't have anything like when you've got, it's like the equivalent of like, if you've got a house and kids and all these responsibilities, all these things start to change in the way that you approach life, versus someone who has nothing doesn't have to think about all that. I think that's what maybe I've applied to the audience, which is day one, if I just did the things that I want to do. What does that look like?

23:50
And you make an interesting point.

23:53
With posting good quality, high quality content, because that's hard to do. Yeah, for most people, yet. Anyone can pick up their phone, take a photo of a flower, and post it on Instagram. So Yogi, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I often do the same thing. Like, I'm not a great photographer, yes, I can create videos. But you know, when I think about, what am I going to post, because you need to remain relevant. If they don't see you in their feed? Who is this guy?

24:18
writing that? I like that feeling?

24:22
I think that's because the way that we consume content, I think that I'm banking on the idea that it all will hopefully change. And so what I've been thinking about is social media is micro micro comparisons that constantly happening, right? So the way that the feed is designed, I'm only going to be on a piece of your content for a minute, let's say Max, but you sort of turning through it. It's like radio, in the sense that you're in the car and you choosing between stations, and you flicking between all these different breakfast shows until someone triggers something in your interest in it. And I think that the difference between what podcasting does or what a blog does, it's like, no, you're arriving to my space, and you're choosing to be here. So the buy in is much higher. Plus, there isn't the back and forth of comparison that can happen where it's like going from you Maven on fucking on a bike something different so you're on a bike, maybe you've just sold us more to me that you've you've sold a house and a real estate they've in front of us

25:32
and so traveling south

25:37
traveling real estate sales THE FUCK YOU SAY THE rebrand happening live.

25:43
He's gonna walk away is real estate.

25:47
There is already was

25:48
there. I think

25:50
he's trying to rebrand

25:52
at the moment. So the thing is that Yeah, with a podcast, people who are listening to this, they're gonna listen to this for 35 minutes. 40 minutes? Yeah, because they're here for you guys. Yeah,

25:59
that's that's exactly right.

26:01
It's slower. It's much, much slower. How do you think that you actually built your audience?

26:07
Well, I mean, again, it was like what you were talking about earlier with the it even not having, but I never really had a plan. I had a rough plan in my head when I started making these videos. And I had no idea how to make videos. So I went on to lynda.com. And I started watching how to create videos on Premiere Pro. And before you know it, I was creating these really crap videos. But I sort of figured at the time that if I keep making them, I will get better at them. And people will get to know me through the videos and realize they are not allowed to watch these videos. And eventually I'll build up a pretty big audience, right in that niche of cycling. But, again, I never really had a strategy.

26:45
But the niche was part of the strategy, though, you identified that? Yep, the cycling stuff. But it was it was your interest? Well, I suppose

26:53
that's exactly right. It was my interest. I mean, I didn't really there's things I can talk about and talk about other topics. I can drop him at drinking coffee. I could have started the cafe Maven, and just going around to cafes and stuff that would have,

27:05
you would have had a heart attack.

27:07
What would the niche be? If you were to start if you had to commit to a niche today?

27:11
Yeah, something? Oh,

27:15
I don't know much about real estate. What is it?

27:20
That's a good question. What

27:21
what are the filters? I guess the US,

27:23
I suppose I know, a lot of bad. As I've said about 10 times in this podcast. I know a lot about video editing. So I could start sort of nation in a video ad. And the thing is with YouTube, is that there's so many people there to look because they can't afford lynda.com at 350 bucks a year. So they go to YouTube and learn the video crash. So that that would be a better reason.

27:44
Why do we Why do we because I've always seen people pretty early days. And I got told about this guy who I've seen his videos and is messing them up a lot. But this dude told me who worked with him? Or he's actually going to start doing a course for teaching people how

28:01
to do it. Right? What am I money?

28:03
Well, so money is one of them. But I've always thought, and I've even done it over got Okay, I'm going to run a day workshop. It's like, there is a moment where most people I think a lot of creators look to how can I teach people? How can I then become the teacher? Yeah. And I've kind of given some pushback. And Josh did a great question. when is the right time? When can you be the teacher? Because if it is, it seems like it might be too early for a lot of people

28:29
certainly gardening says as a teacher, like I think that because I think that it's like coaching, coaching has so many negative connotations because of I think what has happened within the industry of a lot of people who are a chain, who have been part of some form of coaching program or, you know, working remotely, you know, make money on a beach type of thing. And I think teaching their reason that spreads to that, but there was so much benefit from teaching as well. And teaching an orca. You know, there's something about age, right? So as you get older, you people look at you with a bit more credit. Yeah, as a teacher, so if you start talking, you know, like your Maven about, you know, real estate, people are going to listen to you

29:14
during your 40s Yeah, as opposed to if you knew 20s Yeah. So, you know,

29:18
I mean, I think I'm 45 Well, this is the thing, right? This is the other thing, I was gonna say, I'm 45 years old. And I don't even see myself as a teacher, you know what I mean? So I think you have to, in your mind, get your head around the fact that if you know, if you want to be a teacher or a coach, you have to start positioning yourself as an authority on the subject, which is something I never did with cycling. I never really went in my videos and pretended as though I knew a lot about that subject.

29:48
What was your brand filters? Do you think for that? Like what is if you were to say finish the sentence, cycling, Maven is what was cycling Maven, at that time,

29:58
cycling Maven, full, all of the duration of my vlog was just as cycling for other, you know, but really, in retrospect, if I had my time, again, I would have positioned myself as an authority, and I really would have read up on the Pro Cycling scene and, and and known my shit to the subject. Because I think scalability was in terms of making it a full time gig. If you're an authority in the subject, then you can make a living out of it. Whereas if you just a soccer and frothy Yeah, who's making videos, and you mentally position yourself as just a dude who just makes videos just for fun, because he loves cycling, then there's not really a long term prospects of making a full time living out of it. Hence why I'm sitting here in a suit selling surgical devices on a daily basis. So did you nearly do that? Did you mean because that's a choice. You, you could have gone down the route of I'm now influential in this play in this space, like a cycling tips or something? Did you consider doing that? Not really, because I never really felt as though I was that interested? You know, for example, for me to sit down login example, Matt Cain, and he's a he's a cycling commentator here in Australia, you'll start to hear him talking on all the TV shows about cycling, he'll be the guy in the future. He knows a lot about every pro rider when they won races, he know he has read a lot of stuff. And I look at him and go, kudos to you, bro. Because I can't even get up in the morning and look at cycling news. I don't give a shit who won the race yesterday. And so that's part of the problem. You've got to be madly passionate about what you do to be an authority. And

31:36
so for someone who is thinking that nation is the way to go, is the advice unless you hundred percent dead set into it. Love it live and breathe it don't do it. Exactly.

31:49
Don't Well, I mean, you could start it out and say, See, I wouldn't say don't start because you can start it out and realize that you're actually madly passionate about video editing and creating videos on YouTube. So you might go into another area. So and this is what I say to Hannah, you know, she's always saying to me, Well, I don't know what I'm going to do with my life. I mean, she's 32 years old. She's sort of she's young still. And I'm like, we'll just start something. Yeah, just start knitting. And you might realize that you like, you like crochet. Oh, darn, I

32:17
crushed Ivan.

32:19
What is crochet?

32:21
Actually, with knitting needles, like a needle on that? My wife does it. I'm pretty sure. Pretty sure I've

32:29
got a bunch of one.

32:32
Isn't it? Just coming back to you? Who was your inspiration for getting off? So obviously, there's a big movement at the moment. A lot of people are saying that social media is mentally not good for you. Yeah. Who was your inspire

32:46
me? I can. I recognize I think there's probably three, three k people. Cal Newport who wrote deep work, say Seth garden, who has been writing a blog post every single day, you know, for the past 15 fucking years or whatever. It is a very long time

33:03
and doesn't use social media outside of

33:06
a few like, or Twitter. He started I remember when he started on Twitter. He was telling everyone to get on Twitter. This is years ago. He hasn't 10 even earlier. And he didn't even start his own Twitter account. It was just Seth's blog.

33:18
Yeah. Automatic broadcasting. Yeah, yeah. And so and the other one met Dave, Ella with the social detox stuff. And so what I recognized was, you know, I guess if you can commit to not having meat for a month, or you can just completely get off it. And so for me, I thought I looked at who do I want to be? Who do I aspire to be? Who inspires me? And also, what do I want to do on a day to day basis, and I saw a misalignment between who I wanted to be, which is a guy who is well considered, who spends time in things to give it proper thought. That is a moment. Maven. Exactly. And I don't think I don't think that you can be a Maven, on social media. He got a Maven tattoo, but he got a bird. Actually a cycling night, it's a bird on a bike, that would have a great logo, that will Can we just what was the bird that I was thinking? Oh,

34:16
man, right, right. Right. Which is often what I say to people, you know, when I said, you know, they said, Where can I see this video? I say soccer Niven. And I got on what's and I was like, just think of the bird Raven, and then replace the hour.

34:27
I mean, what if you were to give pushback on this whole may getting retired from social media? What is it? Or even the strategy I've

34:33
got? I don't really have any pushback, because I've been thinking it myself. If I think about what cracks me, you know, is seeing other people who I know that I don't necessarily like doing really well. And you know, you shouldn't be thinking good on that dude, working hard and doing well. Sorry, true. But there are elements and I can't help it, where I go on a social media and I'm a little bit it doesn't even motivate me to create to compete with them. It's actually quite D motivating to see people doing really well. And it looks effortless. And you know, I put so much work into my videos and my podcast and stuff like that.

35:10
It's only an illusion, that exact same thing. And then they're looking over as you're putting your finger up at someone else at the back of their head, someone's putting their finger up at the back of your head saying, fuck you, I wish I had what you've got.

35:21
And I suppose my point is, even with an audience, which is what you know, I haven't got millions of subscribers, but even with an audience, someone like me. Even we, you know, even people with 200,000 a million subscribers, that they're all sitting there thinking, God, what's that guy doing? You know?

35:38
So what's the what is the appeal? Or what do you actually think? What do you reckon it's going to land with all of this for you personally?

35:45
Look, I I'm with you.

35:51
Man, I really think getting off. I think being creative is important. So creating something, having fun with it and sort of trying trying to get as much away from this comparing yourself to others as possible, which is detoxing from social media, in fact, getting off at completely I think that's where it's at for the future.

36:09
What do you think replaces How much time do you spend a week on social media?

36:15
Well, you know, you forget about the times that you're sitting in the car, you know, sitting in the in bed, I've got an iPhone, yes. But sitting in bed, you know, for me for my day job. I'm sitting in theater, waiting for the surgeon and I'm sitting there flicking through Instagram. So these are all the things that are just subliminal, you know, you don't even know you're doing it.

36:33
Do you actually look at because the iPhone has screen time of Jada chickened out.

36:38
And I check it out because I trust his Lux when you'd have the sleep app. How did how does it fucking

36:44
ggV on I thought you've got very conspiracy.

36:48
How how much that

36:49
Jimmy Jimmy and on it hang out? Yeah. Conspiracy on a good conspiracy. 911 was definitely

36:58
the now Can you pull out your phone and say how long you can we do for the first time or I'm gonna get my Okay, so it's TJ is gonna get his The funny thing is maybe I'll do it on mine, which could be embarrassing if I spent more time on social media. What was it? A week ago? He did

37:12
say he but there was one that was open. Could have been read it on that Google Map. Yeah, that's right.

37:18
This doesn't record. Minority sites does this.

37:24
Where is it? screen your time you guys settings. settings.

37:29
Number one from sin. Yeah, here we go. Here we go. So this is my way. I've got to find this my work fine.

37:35
So I'm really social media. And

37:38
so do you want last seven days or so if you click on to that.

37:43
So today, so if you go to the top, you can check between today and last seven days. Let's do the last seven days.

37:49
Guys. Can we start off with today? Because my numbers are impressive. And then interlock. So today, guy Josh,

37:56
you go live with Tommy,

37:58
because he wants to have the fight. We have an unfair advantage because you're off. Yes. Right. Tommy night today. So what's that? Say? One hour? 46 minutes will charge Oh, that's across productivity entertainment social. So one hour and 46 minute match on Instagram? Instagram, four minutes.

38:18
Four minutes on it. Yeah.

38:20
Where's your where's the main amount of time for me? Okay, sure.

38:24
What about you say well, that's that's interesting, because I cannot write emails on my phone. I have to wait. And this is part of procrastination as I go home. Yeah, just get on the computer. But anyway, that's incident. Sorry,

38:34
guys. need to write an email.

38:37
Excuse is actually quite interesting. Because I'm mid 40s. So it's like, okay, you know, where were you guys just bang them out? Yeah, man,

38:45
what do you what do you gotta do? You gotta get your

38:51
format. A lock the font on the on the to where's the font on this is tears. Anyway, so so I'm an

38:58
hour and 22 32 minutes, but 13 minutes on Instagram, because I was responding to because I did that.

39:07
Just run into a message, you know,

39:08
not to message take comments on our daily talk show stuff. So most of mines Twitter,

39:14
errand 22. Okay. And Google Maps. And so if you go to the

39:19
wrong guy, if you go to last seven days,

39:23
what's your top app? So what's your top app, the most used app, and it will tell you the amount of Tommy views Twitter, and 20. So far out Instagram, four hours and 31 minutes.

39:35
So you must have you got it on seven bodies?

39:38
I do. But the problem with this is and this is where it's not. I need to add this and my

39:45
two phones. I really need to add them together. for drug dealer.

39:47
Yeah. Yours. Yours is irrelevant.

39:51
Seven, seven day is top AP is Instagram. And I used it for four hours and 31 minutes.

39:58
So my Instagram you you see juice down to one hour. 21 minutes. I said from that guy. And then once you top app crime, how long you four hours and 10 minutes? That's

40:11
nice. I had a delay

40:14
in the back way to look at the desktop version. Yeah.

40:19
Yes. So what would what do you think you would replace with all the

40:22
hang on sorry, I just want to say one more thing. Scroll down. There's a how many times you've picked up your phone tells you per day. So this is a whole lot this your education is good. Yeah.

40:32
So but you won't see the numbers anyway. People play at home, you just go into settings on your iOS phone, your iPhone, and there's a little time and then you can click through. And so pickups for me 97 per day is how many times I'm picking up my phone that's big.

40:49
That's double mine. That's double. In fact, it's almost triple but again to find situations.

40:54
Okay, wait, so did you go in the

40:57
last seven days scroll down and it's like it says pick up 70 per day my interesting. So I'm what's

41:02
your total pickups for them? Total pickups for the week week is 694 95. You've got

41:09
to 70 I wish I would have brought my other phone actually, just because I think I

41:16
have the number. That's email only

41:19
email. I don't think the typewriter has screen.

41:27
Now Good. Good question. So what's going to replace it? Well, you know, this is the thing. I reckon if I shut down all social apps, you're gonna sit there twiddling your thumbs really odd yet? I know. That's the time with Anna.

41:39
You would, you'd have to fill the time

41:41
you would we've got to know.

41:43
A little Bob How old?

41:45
So Jack's? Nine months now.

41:47
Yeah, so mine's nearly two. And we've after the Seth Godin episode, I got back from New York from America and I said, American we don't use any device around the kids so we don't show up any videos when we get home and we've stopped it maybe there's like literally we've gone down to record 95% from what we were doing not that we're doing a fact load but it was a go to if he was just lose if you're desperate, desperate as you know, it's just

42:14
you have to if you're desperate, sometimes you just have to put something

42:16
down hundred percent and it has hundred percent main that we actually spend more time together as a as a partner ship. Partnership, that's how I say my relationship, full blown business partners you know, but just as a capital and with Bodie, he loves it so it's like and what I realized like he loves no actually what we rely on so we get home and we take him to the path because only says when you get home slide slide pack,

42:40
when what he was mainly was slide like unlocked

42:43
but he would love the phone as well. But he also loves the park so if you just choose for him the packs more productive as if your babies my pointer.

42:53
Girl Big Bang. And see this is something I want to improve. And and as I said, I've been putting a lot of thought into this detox thing. And so I've got, well then you've got to order audible. So is that considered an app

43:05
now? Also, I was using the thing with the order it's not really social. Yeah, no, so it's not social. I got audible 10 years ago and I've got like a couple hundred books on there used it religiously. And I've been what I felt is it's a such a different experience and actually reading a book I have only read a book from start to finish in the part of for the first time I'm 28 for the first time this month. Is there a correlation right there social media. Yeah, well the thing was, it was that the funny thing is the book was all about why should get rid of your social media. Yeah, but I was the biggest tip was around underlining which we've spoken. And we spoke about if we're big babies, and so we are

43:46
Yeah, which we are.

43:48
So for my son I've made the decision which is choose the park which is more beneficial, more productive for him as a person over giving him a phone. So if we're big babies and we haven't had all that had to make a decision for us based on what was most productive and beneficial for us. It's not the fucking phone no one's choosing social media as the thing if they'd be honest about what how much we can develop based on doing something else. You wouldn't choose it so we do choose it for ourselves.

44:17
Yeah, I think also when you remove the social media I mean it's it takes more effort to be engaged with the kid and you know and the apply and throw the ball to him and stuff and and to spend more time with the missus talking about shit that doesn't necessarily interest just talking chatting, talking, chatting, you know,

44:36
but doc Chang with the missus. Yeah, we talked to her. She was dead. No, but I was wondering if you to actually talk chang chang is a universal thing that you do. Yeah, we're just talking shit.

44:45
I mean, we talked. We talked mostly shit. Yeah. But But you know, the truth is it is more labor intensive rights, but it's better for your well being I think and I think we're seeing now this massive movement of people writing books about so Romanian had tears it is. And we're saying

45:02
parties. He said that a two time he is

45:05
saying how it is

45:08
like, that's what the young people say is Yes. Have you heard that young people saying that? That's cancer.

45:13
I don't hang out with young people. Yeah,

45:15
so where the fuck did you get teased from

45:17
teases and other one about isms? It's

45:19
that's a chain

45:20
thing. Chang's tears? Tears crying? Sad. Shit. Sad. Yeah.

45:26
Yeah. So yeah. So I think we're seeing more and more people writing books about it. Yeah. So we're seeing more of this movement away from stuff

45:33
that we've read them.

45:36
A lot of mental health stuff. You know, there's a lot of mental health stuff associated with comparisons. And so, and we're seeing an increase in mental health issues. So yeah, I'm all for it. Man. Let's start reading books together. Have you

45:49
gone to it? Because you were having you were going through your own mental health struggles? Yep. Did you go to a therapist? I didn't really want to

45:56
know how to kidding. Now, I did, actually. So when I had jack, they reckon that one in 10 men suffer from anxiety and depression. And I'm like, you guys, pretty much what you see is what you get, you know, I'm pretty, you know, I've always been the sort of like to go to a party and just, you know, be one not necessarily in the loss of the party, but I can have a cup session. Yeah. I've never had problems with mental health whatsoever. Not what I thought anyway, right. But when I had jack, I was 44 started light. And I think the sudden realization that you can't be this selfish prick anymore. I think it and not only that, but you know, when you're getting into your 40s you start thinking about your own health, like, you know, physical health and not getting cancer and dying and stuff. And who's going to look after your kid if you do. So all this stuff, sort of. I got a bit of postnatal anxiety, not so much depression, I got a little bit depressed, because I had anxiety. But anyone that hasn't suffered from anxiety, it's quite it's quite a terrible experience. Right? And so for better three months ago, I had really bad anxiety come out the other end of it now but but I think all this stuff this, you know, cycling Maven thing and being so prolific on social as what I've been for the last six years was a contributing factor.

47:14
I'm interested in the therapist stuff because TJ and I've talked about it, I've never done it. Bry his you're looking at the time for us. We're all good. We've got we can go out for an hour. The whole therapy thing I want to I want to understand your thought process of pitching a therapist. What are they like? Do they always side with you With you like if shits going on today? Have a fucking hard talk and say Matt unit assault the shit out?

47:40
My I reckon I should do more of that, to be honest with you. I mean, so what happens is you get in Australia, you get this option, which is part of Medicare. And obviously, the health care system is identifying the fact that mental health issues and people are a big problem at the moment. And it's only increasing. So what they're facilitated is you can go see us for a subset of a subsidized rate for 10 sessions, right? And so what you do is you go to six sessions first, yeah. And then if your GP still thinks you need more, you can go back for an extra four, which in all reality, let's face it, if you've got issues in a mood, you need to be going in and awake for the rest of your bloody days. Right. But it's going to cost you a fortune. Yeah.

48:21
So you went to the GP. So I went to the GP and I

48:24
said any and I said, Look, I don't know what this is. But I think you know, and he said it's anxiety, you've got postnatal anxiety. So said, here's some drugs. I didn't want to take any drugs. I've never been any sort of drug SSRI. They gave me some Zoloft. What is that? So it's an antidepressant, which has an anti anxiety effect to it. And, you know, read up on it, anyone that's listening right up? And I bet it's, it's it makes us really, it makes us hardcore. We do. So I decided not to take it and just get into the exercise and eat healthy. And I thought, you know what, we all need a bit of therapy. So when I went and saw a sock as well,

48:58
hey, given you already the referral?

49:00
Yeah, he gave me a referral. And I actually found that there was a sock about 100 meters around the corner from my house. So I went and had a chat with a female. I don't recommend a male going and saying, I should I don't know whether I should say this, but I don't think that's your personal opinion. Yeah, it's my personal opinion. But I don't think a male should go see because I didn't really bond with her. You want to be one of our top Chang talk Chang.

49:22
So you're saying go with the man.

49:24
So I think miles. And this is very general. So but I think miles are probably better with males, because women really can empathize with a male, even though they're try. Yeah, the probably cat said what are they had a connection wasn't great with her.

49:41
And so what were you expecting? And what what did it end up being?

49:44
Well, you know, I started so good question. So I went in there and I sat down, I basically thought, Okay, I'm gonna make the most of this, and I'm an open book. I'm an open book rod and give a shit. I'll tell, I'll tell you guys, we're gonna have we got another hour, I'll tell him. But you know, I'm an open book. So I went in there, and I'll just talk everything about my life, and about the fact that I've had a kid not been selfish, all my life was it pressure,

50:04
because I feel the pressure of Part of the reason of not going to a therapist is I've like, it's too much shit, I want to get everything down. And I'm gonna have to fucking point like, as I know, even with these podcasts, I'm like, I want to keep talking. So my concern is that I leave being like, motherfucker, we didn't get to all the shit that I wanted to get. Yeah,

50:22
well, that's what the, you know, the sessions are spaced out, because they really want to get a good understanding of you. But the thing is, I really felt with her that, you know, I was sort of this flowing river information, and she was just sitting there. And in the end, and this is the other thing run, unless you have experienced anxiety or depression, because, you know, like, traditionally, if someone's that, you know, 10 years ago, someone said to me, I'm a bit depressed. So how the fuck up, let's go drink some beers. And guess what, sometimes some fun, right? But the problem is, is unless you've experienced anxiety, and depression yourself, you don't truly know what that person is going through. And I can tell you that now that I've had anxiety, it was one of the worst few months of my life. Like every day, waking up my The moment I would wake up and open my eyes in the morning, I'd be in a state of panic. And I'm talking panic, would you be would you go on social media them? What was your first thing? I know, No, I wasn't doing anything. I could barely get out of bed and go to work. Yeah, all I was thinking about, and this is where it gets into this vicious cycle. All I was thinking about is get out of bed, get in the shower, get dressed, go to work, and try to just forget about it. And that was the massive struggle was just to get out of bed. So So unless my point is unless you've been in that situation, you don't know. And so I'm talking to this chicken after about four sessions. I was like, I turned around and said, Have you ever suffered from anxiety and depression? And she goes, I don't really want to talk to my patients about that. And it was at that moment, I realized that we Yeah, we cannot continue. Yeah,

51:55
you can have it feels a bit. That's what I hate about retail, change the pace. But the the fact that the fact that there's that there's a lack of honesty, maybe with it, like she's playing a certain role, and she kept but I think what you need is a role to be human. And is that a human thing to say? Yeah, and I think fracking is Yeah, and

52:16
it was quite, I felt as though it was just a one way you know, he has made a spilling my guts about my life and being completely vulnerable and open. Yeah. And this chicks just sitting there taking notes and looking at me, and I was in the end, I was like, You know what, if you're going to go see a therapist, you need to connect with them.

52:32
It's very important. How many sessions? Well, I think

52:34
after one session, you need to decide whether that person is the right person and then go see someone else

52:39
who's that, who said recently that, in that boring letters book that you're reading, it says, try something at least twice. Do yourself that favor? Yeah, interesting, because the first time you build this understanding, based on the interaction, the second time you test it, yeah, because it might be different. And you might be different. Like I totally get that the therapists, psychologists needs to a part of their job is to be reliable in some respect, I don't know how that is, it could be matching, you won't feel it or use of tone or something like that. If you transition that to other positions of service, like a personal trainer, you don't have to be a personal trainer. You don't have to be a personal trainer. You don't have to be in fat to help someone lose fat. But show you can empathize to the to the state that you're in, which is the maybe the mental state. But it's not the defining factor. I don't

53:34
know I think mavens point is it's actually not that she did or didn't have anxiety, it was the fact that she her being professional like her answer to me if she said no, I don't like I haven't. Yeah, I think that that would actually be different. So what you said before, Josh, about all those internal things going into the psychology sessions, no different I've had that I've been. And I experienced that. And I thought I want to get to the point. Why are we breaking this up? I want to keep going. There's so much more you haven't even gone, you haven't even done yet.

54:06
And so there is like being on someone else's podcast?

54:08
Yeah, yeah. It's like they might be their strategy, which might not serve your needs is 10 sessions to get to that rapport building, which is super hard when you're in a vulnerable place. So I get I get that. And I kind of say that, I think what's good is that in fact, I went and had an experience.

54:27
But do you think you should get like is there is this test testing ground where you go to five different one, but seems like a lot of lot of mental energy in re contextualize every single time and saying, Hey, this is who I am doing that whole year I'll be

54:45
I think for someone like me, who can talk to anyone, I can meet someone and I can tell them straight up that I'm suffering a little bit, I've got a little bit of anxiety, so bear with me, and all that sort of guy. But there's other people who are quite explicit stay though with those people. Because I reckon I would have more American I'd be more okay with just opening up to random than the person that's going to fuckin easy for some judging me and having to respond with an answer. Like, I feel like that would give me more insight. Like I'm saying, Eric, and I'm more

55:17
I can relate to you in that way. Yeah. And so

55:20
even like the podcast, we talked about the fact that will say shit on the podcast that we probably aren't comfortable saying to people's faces, or like, you wouldn't say to your family or your friends, but on a podcast, you get a mic, and it gives you a little bit of fucking, we are sitting here with three blokes in a room just talking, talking. So he token Chang with he doesn't want to cross brand.

55:42
I just want you guys. But

55:48
But you know, it's it, we're relaxed here. Whereas if we were sitting in an auditorium with, you know, X amount of thousands of people that download your your podcast every day, it would be different dynamics. And so you know, going back to the psychologist thing, it's a, it's it. For me, it was an easy thing to do. But for other people, it can be quite difficult. And so they'll need more sessions, right. 10 sessions, I mean, Medicare have to put a number on it. Yeah, they have to put a number on it.

56:16
So that's fair. And what was the what was the final vibe, when you sort of you asked that question was, was that at a level of frustration that you had where it's like, I don't feel like I'm connecting. Have you? Was that the tipping point where you said, said that? And how did it all sort of? And

56:33
I realized after a few sessions that she went back, yeah, I went back for six sessions. Yeah, to her to the same one. But I realized that after about three sessions, that what was happening is there was a patent of me going token Chang for the whole duration of the hour, and not really getting anything back. And so what she was doing was just getting trying to get me to as a male to talk about my problems, right. But I do that anyway. Yeah. So from me, I didn't get any value out of it. For other people who have trouble with that or talking with a loved one or a friend. I highly recommend that because

57:07
the reality is there's good and bad psychologist there.

57:11
There's also right, right for you rightfully wrong for you. Yeah. I mean, what's the if you were to tackle it again, do you think there are questions that you could ask the therapist upfront that would sort of hack the system to know if they're right there? Yeah. It's a crazy thing. I mean, look,

57:28
I pretty much you know, when I meet someone within, you know, five minutes of talking to them even less, whether we're getting along, yeah, me or whether or not this person and I think that's pretty much most people, right. And I think that's what you got to do when you go see it's just rapport, right? It's just rapport. And I think she had didn't really have any people skills. And so it's one thing to be a professional and talk to professional, but you need to build that rapport. And so my advice to her is, if you're listening, I want to turn on, but you need to, you know, you need to be able to bond with people. Yeah. And he's the

58:02
Did you look at to have certain skills where it's like, specializes in x cyclists? Yeah.

58:12
That's very niche

58:13
audience now. Yeah. I mean, she's niche. And that's why you say that YouTube is is a funny niche, because they're all for that fact.

58:21
That's right. Social media. So this is the other thing right there. As I said, this whole thing coming out with social media, people getting fucked in the head, and you see a lot of big YouTubers or you know, this people breaking down the front and center.

58:32
What is that app? What is the app that it runs been? Have you seen this? There's a mental health app that people have been doing sponsored content for? Did you say this or no, no, no, it wasn't one of them. It was better health better health. So even like the Franco Yeah, there was a whole those did he he did a whole expose on them or what? You know,

58:53
they're like the, you know, when you go to YouTube, and you see the this advertisement is this video is sponsored by Squarespace. Well, I think better health is the equivalent of square space in the mental health space. Yeah. And, and I've never actually checked it out. But

59:08
I think the criticism that people were having was there, were pitching it as a solution instead of going to a counselor that you could just use an app and get help. And the other thing too, is it was a little bit gross, because people were using their mental health stories. And then at the end, Oh, God, it was a if you're feeling like this, use the better health which I could see the benefits of that. But I could also say how

59:31
these things, you know, mental health, so funny want to talk about, because you can get other people with mental health issues when they in the depths of what they're going through, can get quite triggered. Yeah. And so this is why at the bottom of, and this is the other thing is people don't like talking about so for example, a friend of ours within the cycling community committed suicide recently, local Melbourne guy, and you know, it's it's tough talking about a news articles when when these, these media outlets letter writing these things, because they don't want to specifically say suicide, because it can trigger other people. And I find that quite interesting that when you read these articles, you don't know how this person this young person that you know, passed away?

1:00:13
Well, if you look at the bottom of the article, if

1:00:18
it's usually something is, there's been tough times. And I don't know whether you're allowed to even to deny that. So this is something

1:00:23
Yeah, what interested in what's your TJ? What you've had a suicide throughout your life growing up with friends? What do you did you find that helpful than not talking about it? Or did you find that it was not talking like this? I the way that society communicates with it. I remember you having pushback on the radio station saying, oh, Lifeline, like doing that whole bit beforehand?

1:00:50
Well, I always felt it was it was ticking the box. So the empathy, empathy I had for the radio announcers is half the time they're having to talk about this shit. Yeah, it's a podcasters. Another tennis fan. That's right. It was his wife, partner, but I empathize for the fact that, you know, sometimes you just have to talk about it. Yeah. And then I felt like that was the box ticket, the end. But then what I do also think now, not that I've changed my mind. But I was thinking about that app. Right? There's casualties within that space. I mean, if they're promoting don't go to therapy, you can use our app, the realities of there's probably a small percentage that use the app and actually got heaps of benefit out of it. Yeah. So there is so many ways, and it's like, don't not do something. It's every bit counts. But if they're being stinky with the business model, it's hard. It's so it's such a hug.

1:01:43
I think what the reason people don't, as I said earlier, they don't want for you, it's okay, I don't know, I mean, I don't know what you're, you know, whether you're having any mental health issue, but for people who are suffering from bad mental health issues, I can understand that someone committing suicide can trigger them to have those thoughts. And so that's it's exclusively for people who are suffering themselves from mental health issues, because I've been there, man, you know, I've been in that place.

1:02:11
So do you think that having been in that place of that, we should all constantly have that lens? Do you think it was beneficial not having that externally available to you absolutely.

1:02:21
Like that, when you know, always going through these hard times when Anthony Bode is about dashboarding committed suicide and I couldn't even look at the computer. Whenever I saw anything like that. I didn't want to know about it, because it was not just him. It was also that female famous female, what's her name? I can't remember her name right now, but two people in the states committed suicide at the same time, Mick, Jagger's McDaniels was one of the designers

1:02:45
are the handbag,

1:02:48
handbag. Yeah,

1:02:50
right. What's her name, you know, Kate Spade, a spade, so

1:02:53
and I was going through a real tough time. And so I couldn't look at any of that stuff. Because I was so down. And that just made me worse. And so now, as someone who's, you know, coming sort of, sort of coming out the other end. I look back at that. And, and if you're not a man, like, I don't know, wouldn't take it as hard. Now, it's actually what I did, then.

1:03:14
It's an interesting perspective. I've never thought about that. And when we were encouraged, she was never told that as someone working in a broadcast broadcast business, there was never comes around. And maybe maybe there's just no thought to it. About the talking about suicide could trigger suicide. Yeah, we say that, you know, like this, it's it's so fascinating. Yeah.

1:03:36
Yeah, I was really thinking about doing a video on my channel, actually, about what I've been through myself, and but the only thing that's holding me back is triggering other people who are in that real rut.

1:03:48
Have these? What if you save lives from it?

1:03:52
What if that video is the catalyst for someone to go and say help? And that's what I mean about the, the, it's so hard because we hypotheticals that app, they help people, they didn't help people, their intention was probably good, creative software to help affected people. Yeah. And it's a really it's a predicament, we don't know.

1:04:13
I think probably the I feel like the answer is deeper conversations lead to empathy. I think the problem is that social media, Instagram have these micro moments where we don't have the ability to build empathy. You talking about suicide on Instagram post, the same area where, you know, my mom posters of posts a photo from being away or stuff like that, I think that context which of the the chicken Bali, you know, bikinis and then Maven talking about, you know, his mental health struggles? I think that is the heartbeat. Yeah, that's right. And that's a good point. Because you,

1:04:55
you're, you're in,

1:04:56
you're at the mercy of the algorithm, really. But the blogger that has a Sikh life, is that potentially not a trigger point for someone who has, to them is the worst life? Definitely,

1:05:10
that's a really good point.

1:05:10
That's why we need to

1:05:12
be conscious of what we're consuming. We need to I think we need to be hyper hyper, hyper critical. We've allowed all these people in with followed all these people, because Instagram says to follow when you click through and you're accumulating, and it seems like a bit of a game, and you follow me and I follow you, and it's this mutual thing. But what I don't think that we've taken into consideration is the actual damage that it's doing. It's like, we're fucking eating the whole cake. And we haven't realized that the flow on effect to that is going to be huge.

1:05:42
Yeah. And, and exactly, like, look at my situation with the YouTube channel. I mean, there's a lot of my followers that, you know, probably think I have this amazing life. And, you know, I've had comments that you know, when Hannah and I are in a video together some of the comments like relationship goals and stuff like this patina. And I'll look at comments on them. Fuck If only you knew how much we fought. So, so it's not real. And I suppose part of what I'm doing is I'm trying to propagate that. I'm just a normal Dude, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I still don't know what I'm doing. And I'm still frustrated with things and I'm just like you. And you might have 20 followers when I talk about you, because I've seen you've got more Yeah.

1:06:22
How do you do it in a genuine way? How do you because there's obviously people who are posting their I look, I'm I'm also a bit fat some days and they post a photo of them where they've just had a fucking loaf of bread.

1:06:38
How do you how do you do authenticity?

1:06:41
So are you saying these people are seeking this particular person who's seeking attention? Or

1:06:46
they're doing what they think authenticity means? Yeah, that I've been I've been I'm a bit bloated. Now. Here's the before and after. So what's the authenticity for you? Great. Yeah. Okay, so I get it now.

1:06:57
So we only have to go I look at our little circle of friends and see them posting you know, like, you know, Joe Bloggs might post a photo of human in such and such in this you know, like the we see those epic photos where you're like, are you motherfucker I wish I was there doing that with it, right? But the truth is, I think guys that I follow some people I follow I just like they're doing these raw shots, and they're not trying to put a filter over. And I think that's the way to do it. I think what I'm saying is, I could make a Casey nice that style vlog. But I think it's better for me to hold the camera shaky, just not orchestrate in any way. Just talking. And I think being authentic without any real video production is the best way forward, because people can then relate to you.

1:07:43
So then does that just become a?

1:07:47
Yeah, it's interesting, because I could see that being if that's the benchmark, if the benchmark of authenticity is the camera work, then we end up living in these documentaries, where we're taking shit photos, really contrived things, because lighting can do it like a lot of people criticize Photoshop. But fact I can make someone look good by just changing the way that light hits. You know, do you think a video of you talking about mental health is more authentic, thoughtfully authentic? As opposed to a vlog where you just talking about your day? And like family stuff? Like

1:08:27
Yeah, what's what's more authentic in your eyes? Yeah, I think

1:08:30
the blogs probably more authentic way of doing it. Because you can do that on a consistent daily basis. I can I will have a over often you post your videos, but I think to intermittently commit So for example, if I was to make a mental health video every week, after while you'd sit there and look de nada and find in LA comedy channel, because you all you do is when you're bitten you problems, right.

1:08:50
So let's say you who be trolling you, the psychologist that you didn't fix it.

1:08:58
You fact out Yeah,

1:08:59
we

1:09:03
need to dig in him.

1:09:07
Glad we brought that around. what's actually going to cut that whole bit because we've gone a bit over today, but we'll obviously keep that in. Maven. So you're three, three episodes into your podcast.

1:09:17
Can you give us some it? I know you're only three episodes in. But we tried the female podcast yesterday. And I saw that I actually started just great. It's what we do. But the feeling that it gave us maybe that's all you know.

1:09:30
Yeah, this this is in line with what we were talking about earlier. And I don't want to read along because we're wrapping the podcast up but it adds like for example, this is pretty easy. You get the audio file, you tweak it a bit you bang you can you can and this is what Seth Gordon would say is just get your content bang Don't you know ship you just get it up? Right doesn't matter. It's not

1:09:46
perfect. I never said that. When he said just merely ship which is slightly different. Apparently somebody

1:09:52
said merely ship it just merely ship. Which I struggled. I understand that.

1:09:58
You I think what you what he's Yeah, I think that it's he was saying it was extending it to be.

1:10:08
You don't have to ship a shit. It's merely ship. just

1:10:14
merely

1:10:15
ship something that's a good, reasonable? Well, yeah. And I think when you throw the cameras in, it adds this whole new element of complexity, and especially if you're not a video editor. So for example, for me, I then have to go through my hour long talk and Jang podcast video version that I'm going to put on YouTube. And then I have to go through and do the multi camera. And so that takes me an hour or

1:10:38
on camera bit. So what we find finding especially is the camera ship with backing down before it's our bread and butter, but the actual being there with the microphone and all of a sudden realizing that your facial expressions are being caught. So when you're saying something that's really serious when you're talking about your mental health things when we're filming, I have to think K, am I looking sad enough?

1:11:03
Not so I'd never think of that. And that's part of authenticity. This goes back to our authenticity thing.

1:11:07
Yeah, maybe you

1:11:08
just don't know any other interview?

1:11:10
Well, you know, and again, I'm, I'm a wrong person to talk to you about because I've done lots of videos. So I'm at a stage where I can look at the camera, and I just don't care what I was me, this is me.

1:11:21
Maybe it's not even that I should, I should try

1:11:26
to avoid Josh, I, I can feel my nose on my face, which is a heightened awareness. Yeah, hyper,

1:11:34
hyper awareness to what you're used to speaking, I'm really so normally I think that 100% video version of me right now isn't as authentic as what you're hearing, and the reason at all that what you're experiencing, because what you're experiencing, I don't have to think about it. What I think just happens over time is we'll get to a point where it doesn't become a thing. But at the moment, I feel that all of a sudden the visual communication to just purely by having the camera, their body language and stuff. am I sitting up straight? All those types of things. Just play in the back of my mind. I think it only happens through repetition and doing it a lot. Yep. That you get better when you spot

1:12:15
on. You have to do it multiple times just to speak before you just forget about it. Yeah. And but I think it's good. I think it adds a whole new element to the podcast that because I think people want to see you and they want to build that connection with it. Because I think your listeners will be loving your podcast at the moment. I mean, I love it. And so I want to get to know you guys a little bit better.

1:12:36
I we get told by a friend of ours. conspiracy. Jimmy, what do you say?

1:12:40
He said that the video is like the risk losing some of the mistake.

1:12:45
Yeah, but then I my thought of that. There's a there's a different audience. So if there's like bright so you've got your audience, which compiles people coming in from all different angles, you break down those audiences. That could be some that only watch the video version, actually don't use the podcast app. So then that is another person. So I don't think it's a reason to say no to it. Based on losing the mistake. It could be the thing that actually makes it work. Well the thing is, you guys are presentable. Right. You're good looking roasters, right

1:13:16
today, if you

1:13:18
you know, if you you know, I just a three out of 10, then I'll probably say stay out of the podcast.

1:13:24
Well, you know, Derek said something to scooter Derek said that. If he heard us, he would think that we were a couple of fat guys with Hawaiian shirts. Which I think I like, I'll stand by that I.

1:13:41
I have been, I think we should do

1:13:46
the daily talk show Hawaiian shirts that has stick with that. But where can we get in front, which is made you need Hawaiian shirts, and then we'll get a really nice a patch that says,

1:13:56
this is what we're going to do. This has already been done though, right? Because we're Guinness who's The Sydney Morning Herald reporter is for 29 nearly 30 years he's been wearing a Hawaiian shirt in all his us things. Really a Google group again, group legend

1:14:11
he's a great guy to be the stone wine shirt thing I think could be a thing but you know what I want to do? Is that our next call merge patches. Yeah, so that people can then sew them on to their bags, or they can do thing that's cool or know how many people know

1:14:25
how to sew? Yeah. So

1:14:28
I'll take this selling away from it they they look like the main stage but then you can find them on so there's ones with just a back through the fact that owns and I am

1:14:36
Who the fuck owns threading a needle? I thought that that could

1:14:40
be the dude who's into crochet. Why don't we just do like Hannah

1:14:44
what we'll do we'll get we'll get five of them made up and work out some way of giving them away these are fucking Primo there's five of them right? That's all you and I. TJ and I are going to have one Ah yeah, so there's only fucking three left.

1:15:00
Why do we decide we're going to work out or why how can we give them why But no, don't we do an auction Can you

1:15:06
do the auction?

1:15:10
So how about this will will get three three of them done that will give them away but what we'll do is we'll also include a needle and thread in the mail so that it can be sent sharp items in the mail you're actually teaching people it well that's a good question. I think so. You're actually helping teach a new skill? Well, this is good. This is like carbs. I never did camps but I would have loved to did you do camps? Did you have to do that before now? Why did you do what the other thing after comes

1:15:37
scale scouts you know I never did any that just straight to the Navy. Because I was a rebel kid. My dad wanted to get rid of me.

1:15:43
Hey, can you can you please tell me the video where there's someone wakeboarding behind a huge ship? Yes,

1:15:51
I saw Google on YouTube Google water skiing behind HMS turns when you see me waterskiing behind a desk escort

1:16:00
totally illegal but fact totally

1:16:02
illegal off the off the coast of Darwin did they ever get in trouble or anything? No, no no no we didn't we were actually in Action Stations with the United States and we'd been working nonstop for like two weeks so we pulled off what actually what does that say Action Stations is when you do four hours on like a full everyone's on the ready for war. Do you take a four hours nine so you do four hours on four hours?

1:16:26
Four hours All right, I've done action I haven't had been action station today.

1:16:32
So yeah, so we pulled off with the ship pulled off and we just found that little patch of water out let me know no

1:16:39
water so which we you know war.

1:16:40
Now it was war games. So every year they do caca. Do something so we have war games with all the United States if Anes firing cannons Yeah, you name it like it's probably Olympic sort of thing like the Olympics but for warships

1:16:55
with real with real stuff. Well, yeah. Shoot at

1:17:01
so you shoot a target sometimes if it rains will carry a thing behind them. So then we shoot it with the NDA stuff. But But yeah, you have all these ships man aircraft carriers thing and they're all trying to sync each other hypothetically

1:17:16
to Navy if you're in the Navy, do you have a gun?

1:17:19
Well, you learn how to use guns but I was a electronic ignition so I had a

1:17:24
solid Sumit waters gear. So what would you actually put together then what we did

1:17:28
feeling was I was electronic so I was looking after all the cryptographic and the radio equipment. So the ship's communicating to each other. I had to make sure all their equipment was

1:17:36
right so if I had like a you need any CB radio that wasn't working, would you be able to fix it?

1:17:40
They used to because we used to back in the day we used to work at component level. So we used to fix resistors and capacitors and solar them and things like that. These days. You just replace the whole unit.

1:17:50
So what you're saying is if you go to JB and get me a new one absolutely they still

1:17:55
he lost his job.

1:17:57
isn't fixed.

1:17:58
Everything's cheap in the kitchen. Put Yanomami we're done.

1:18:01
Talking Chan is the name chang chang, chang chang. chang chang. Chang talking Chiang Mai. It's been good talking chatting with you. Thanks for daily talk show. Hi, the daily talk show.com Have we got any emails or no? We've blown this way out. So tomorrow, have a good one guys. Catch you guys.
"