- June 12, 2018
The Daily Talk Show — Tuesday June 12 (Ep 106) – Josh Janssen & Tommy Jackett
Our mate Rob Ward is the co-founder of Quad Lock, the most popular case for mounting your iPhone (and other smartphones) to your bike, car and more! What does it take to have a business partnership, the early days of the business and how becoming a Dad changes your perspective. We cover it all on today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show.
Quad Lock website: https://www.quadlockcase.com/
Rob’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/robyward/
The Daily Talk Show is on Instagram! https://www.instagram.com/thedailytalkshow/
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Johnson and Tommy jacket when I was six of the daily talk show how are
we yeah good It's Tuesday we got Rob Ward from quite luck Thanks for having me guys like
pretty special day to have you on and also Kim Jong on and Trump meeting for the first time
you have it's I feel like a lot of important meetings are happening today and there
was something else that is pretty big news Oh bike guys have done that's in the getting taken from all from Melbourne. What do
you do on your weekends? Me
Tommy was already talking about like getting getting one like an mounting it on his wall. Yeah, I gotta
know box store Do you?
Can we? Let's explain. Hey Rob, is because I
actually brought up the box because I was looking at your Insta and there's no bike in your Instagram but Josh I'll let you do
escaping yet Rob is the co founder of quad lock it's like the number one why you to mount your phone to things specifically you back I was gonna say is that their marketing campaign
that's made you guys is number one or the people saying it's not one or the other people have spoken but it's definitely number one. I'm just I'm just trolling
it's literally when I you just and you've been playing this game. TJ ever since we worked on some quite lock stuff together you just go out side and you'll just see them on every bike and I was watching a
camera lens review the other day and you're in London and you just see people using quad locks
yeah it's what I love is you guys your friendship because how long have you known each other now
what nine you well it's Wednesday when did quad lock start? It must be like seven or eight seven years yeah it was before yeah 20 2011
so you've Josh you've seen from the outside Rob's business growing and yeah well I mean the healing the number one to still pretty good
well no cuz I remember we did we connected through me when I was doing Melbourne geek today why often does that come up?
How often does Melbourne gate come up? Yeah
bit given their How should it was Did you know Rob that he had a sticker on his car like a full decal that said Melbourne gate if there's one thing
I know about Josh is that
he would have had that before even do these first
soldier the law had the logo sorted now I had a character to have like a full line but yeah, so I think it was
our my other mate CP who works with throughout the other co founder of quite like I think he may have reached out initially being like hey you've got a Melbourne Melbourne blog. Will you cover us? And I said yes and so quad lock was going it was an open a case of that time Yeah, yeah.
Explain what the I think I suppose is the one of the first ever Ozzy Kickstarter campaigns and so probably when we did that
had doing a Kickstarter campaign was more of a story than what actually open a was yeah but open was pretty cool it was pretty gimmicky but it was effectively a iPhone bottle opener yeah and
I looked at the video you made I think it's the video that you made which one we did was I looked on your website Rob and I and I went to open a case and it has like its own website area and then it has like a video of like all of its uses in like shows you coming out look like it was made on I movie but that's probably I'm sure high production back then
I feel like there was a mix I had one from a going Canada who remember he did that one on the cork are
in summary it like to ensure it's like it almost was like a switchblade at the end of your iPhone, whether you charge it from and that comes out is like this full industrial looking. Yeah,
bottle opener. It's actually seek idea. I mean, your phone would probably be seven centimeters thick. Now, if you were good, but without having to snap your phone. But interesting. So why did you decide what was the interest in making that other than openly bs I think back then it's sort of we're doing a couple other businesses at the time which would, which will find bought, we started to realize what we wanted to do was more of a, you know, a consumer product and we were actually seeing at the same time that the barriers to entry of, you know, capital to get an idea off the ground, you know, access to people telling people about what you're doing with, you know, social media
just, you know, being out of transact with people like
e commerce that kind of thing it sounds silly to say some of this stuff excellent. But back then it was that we sold that those barriers were sort of falling down around this and we thought there's no really reason not to do something and then we sort of started thinking okay what we don't have any money we don't really have enough friends to be able to make a minimum order quantity of this how do we how do we get something off the ground and we need that Kickstarter was out there we had to sort of hack that to get on as as these as these couldn't really get on it that time really yeah we figured out that you know if you put ads on Facebook people clicked on them and they did buy things and we figured that out and that's gonna be that's gonna be handy
and from there we just thought you know what would that product look like and I remember one day I think it was I think I've thought about it all weekend ranks a panel at what if we put like a everyone likes bottle openers because they don't want these and you know
when you when you when you drinking so what if we put one on the back of your iPhone so one thing you have within you all the time and then we sort of come up with yeah I remember he he designed something up and next thing we know we had this slide out bottle opener and we were running a Kickstarter campaign and yet it's sort of snowballed from there it's funny
because it's it's not like it's you You didn't reinvent the wheel you just combined it a few things that are awesome yeah that your phone Andrey, he'd be we've got a pre order coming in is
just enough. just interrupt bringing coffee the yes you can take a photo. So
Rob, can you explain now how big squad lock is like, how many people how many things he's selling and Qa? Yeah. You know, I'm in in Melbourne in prayer. And he Grove Street we have that is 12 of us full time. So currently standing. So yeah, we're probably on on the store. Now. I'd say I
don't know if I got that. But I somehow spilled
coffee on my pants. Josh has been awkward. So everything's normal.
Good trial. Now. The Yeah. So
how many quite lots of years old. I don't know the figure. But it's over a million over a million blogs a lot of quite a lot. It's a lot of code. Lots and lots of them around. You know, you don't have to really look to hide anymore. That's in a lot, a lot of sort of major cities around the world. Which is fun. They, you know, we were sold on apple.com
you know, we have things like just crazy stuffs always happened around us which is good in a lot of its lock and a lot of its I think just being the right place the right time like Christopher and probably most famous cyclists in the world like he uses it on his training rides and things like that and that's just pure organic we have you know lots of customers all over the place now I think in the first three months we sold into I think I remember the stat the other day it was like it's over 100 countries so it's growing its growing quick
yeah and just I'm sure you know Josh so you're hearing things for the fifth time in a row but I think it's still interesting like the how you even came up with a question it called lock
yeah yeah I mean to be honest that the initial idea called lock came CP came up with probably not as what it is now but the sort of you know like all ideas they sort of start somewhere and it was when he moved to Sydney for a new design job he had one of the first iPhone cracked that
nut crack screen is incorrect could use it but I know that as soon as you said that Tommy would have no idea yeah, I actually thought
crack because I didn't see that in your eyes. I remember people cracking what was
the actual jailbreak jailbreak to jailbreak the phone? So he had it set up. So if it isn't as escaping get a phones on the black market. Exactly. Yeah. So jailbreaking them would have been without even doing third party apps, then, or what was the are That's right, he CP had it. So he could use a piece of hardware that was like a game controller. That was the thing that he Yeah,
that was another thing he came up with. He has, like a Yeah,
you could put like, old Nintendo games on it. If your child record as well. Remember, like, Yeah, but anyway, that, so he was in Sydney, and he had a new job. And he was riding around, and he was like cheese. And that was when Google Maps was like, brand new on iPhone. And I mean, think about, like, we just take maps on an iPhone with, you know, you only have to use APS. Yeah, and they have to use Apple Maps wants to realize how important like a good Maps app. Yeah, yes, yeah. But anyway, he was there doing that. And he thought isn't will be cool if we could, if I could mount my phone on my back. And then I suppose that was the initial style of the idea. And then from there grow into this mounting system that we could do everything we do today with it. And it's still growing at the moment, we're still working on stuff that that will come out in the coming years.
So going into creating something out of this, is there a thought that it is so basic? And did you ever think surely someone else's done this? And why? Like, yeah, yeah,
I think I think
there's, there's two things here Is it one will sort it was something like, you know, like, often bottle opener or something like that, like, yes, someone could have done it already. But even if someone's done, it already, doesn't mean it's not worth doing. If you can do it in a better way. But also if you can sell it better than them. And like,
I tend to think now, when you look around, you find something that no one's ever done, even tried to do, or it sometimes what it is, is that there's actually no money in that market. And that someone's thought of it, and they've got to do it, and it never went anywhere. But at the same time, you can sometimes have an original idea, it's probably more rare than having the idea that has been thought of before because, and the serendipity of the way the world works is people think of things at the same time because of the st world that similar influences on yourself. Yeah.
Well, the iPhones coming like people jailbreaking their phone they're starting to cycle starts to happen.
So just quickly, did you think quad lock in its initial idea phase? You thought it was an original idea?
Uh, yeah, the way the way that there was other things like putting your phone on your bike, but it's a seed, we had the odd way before we did anything with it as well. Like, like, like, a lot of IDs in LA. Yeah.
And it just, we, so we had that idea before opening, but it just seemed bigger and hard to get off the ground. So we did opener, and then from open, and then we then we poured money and also resources into quad lock, and then grew up from there, but it was a slow burn, then open, open or sort of, you know, you remember the PR we got with open I like, straightaway, Josh it was it seemed really big back then. It's probably not. not that big. But
we use because you were you had the Oakley office. Was it? Yeah. Yeah. You're in Oakley. You had all of these factory laser. Yeah, laser cutting cutting machine otherwise of business. And you're going to 3d printing. And so you had all these websites going? You had like a 3d printing website. You had one zone had a 3d printers.com that I you the blog. Yeah. And so really dies. This is so this was 2011. 2011. Yeah.
But I mean, that stuff started pro Black 2010. Yeah, you know, 20 years, something like that. And the funny thing is with the Melbourne gate stuff, I classic JJ style went filmed Episode Three of Melbourne geek, which was never aired. Was it three of three on a different era. I don't think we never did I but the I remember I felt come a long way. Yeah, I feel like I I felt bad. And so like I was constant was this weird thing where it's like, I really liked Robin say pay. So we'll just try. And like we just sort of got over the fact that that was never got all the filming that we did for an afternoon was never going to air but we created all of this.
That's how it happened right
now. You mentioned it as
Well, I remember I tried to found on my hard drive and won't need to release it at some point have a Skype interview that I did with Rob where I was like, you know, that classic case
you don't have enough
you don't have enough content. And so it just becomes this game of trying to salvage something. And so what I said is we needed
Rob in the video. I think I'd only filmed say pay so far. And I wanted to get robbed side. And Rob was like, Where were you working at the time you were in? Oh, yeah. I
was. I was working for family lives live with at Tom What did I didn't, you know, big industrial laser plasma cutting machines. Yeah. You heavy heavy equipment. Like a sales role, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I was, I think I was in like, Sydney or something. Yeah, at
the time. And you were you took like, yeah, half an hour when you were at the on the expo floor to to Skype in and I recorded the interview, which also just sits on my hard drive and done anything with it. That the the funny thing was definitely we made it with that. Yeah, I know. But the amazing thing was that we ended up going to Macworld. So in the beginning of 2012, January of 2012, we both went to Macworld. And for me, it was my big entry into doing events for Melbourne. geek and covering them and being the guy going like, oh, what product are you selling? and Robin? cp? We're going over as was it like Oprah is the main thing or was it quad luck? I think, I think open I think, I think I'm just trying to think when was what was the date says, I think maybe quality wasn't actually properly release. We just finished the you different crowdfunding campaign, but it wasn't it was still being manufactured. Yeah, yeah. I hadn't had your first round of actual manufacturing yet. But they had a booth and it was amazing. Like I had, I remember, I was on my own first time traveling on my own San Francisco. Yeah, we're in San Francisco. And I just hung out with Robin say, pay the whole time. You've showed me the photo of you guys in the bar together. Yes. Yeah. Yeah,
we'll see. Josh talking the bar.
We were having a few lemonades. Yeah, we did. We had pizza and all that sort of thing. But yeah, it was still remember him rocking up when we first met, and he rocks out. And he's like, everyone's offering me Roxy in the street. What should we get some Roxy Roxy and what do you mean oxy. I was awesome.
It was because it was. There was a I didn't know that. I was leaving me the tenderloin, like in San Francisco for them for the few weeks that I was there. Yes. And so I had my five day around my neck walking around. Just like I just had it. Yeah. All these people like it wants the Roxy. What's a maxi? It was just like, No, thank you. But um, yeah, so it was interesting. I mean, talk about early days. And like with Max world. For instance, it was the first Macworld that Apple had just left the first one that sucked real bad. Yeah, well, it was the, in the sense of everyone was doing cover iPhone covers. So literally, you would go to this Expo and you used to, like I'd never been before, but there was lots of different sort of, you know, different Mac apps. And just, I think
these things always seem better, though, when you're at home watching the highlights on YouTube. Yeah. When you're actually they walking around events? Yeah. What, ya better?
Well, it's like NAB and all that sort of thing. Like, it's the reality of it was a bunch of people selling iPhone cases. Yeah.
And and what were you thinking when you got there? Did you see people doing similar things? You're like, Oh, shit.
Nah, no one. No one had anything similar. They're all going pretty bling bling with it. Yeah. Yeah.
So Katie Yeah. And and like that.
This is where like, the, the light that fire and flood that led up that Audubon Park was was big move is just coming out. Yeah. Like a lot of screen protectors. I remember. There was stuff that's mundane, but was new newish then yeah, yeah, and people are making money somewhere from so many different things. just random things. I think when you think about stuff in general, it's easy just to let like something slide. But then when you think of how many people in the world and how big a nice shoes like I remember the other day, I was listening to the podcast and you had was your friend Lisa was saying all hopefully people are thinking about this now or wanting this, you know, from coaching, or from whatever is, and I remember thinking, I think about it, but I think Actually, no, you just need to get to the people that want that someone that wants that someone that wants this to someone else's. And those little niches of people who want different completely different things. Yeah,
I've actually huge when you when you think about the scale of the flying in an hg think, yeah, definitely. If we went in the nation, when it would have been if we would just a generic, you know, cover you it's trying to scale that is odd, because unless you've got especially because you got any we didn't have any, any cash at the start. What do you when you say we didn't have any cash? What does that actually mean? What is a bank account with no cash actually look like? Because I feel like it's do no cash for me is like this is your brand in debt? Like,
what is no cap? Well, I mean, just, you know, I suppose, like, no cash means 50 grand know, once you sure?
Well, I kind of
relevant to what will cost us a
relevant to the customer like we couldn't, you know, we did I To be honest, like CP and I did save up lots of money back in the day. And it gave us like, a grace period. But that's like paying your salary. Yeah. Which just means you don't have to pay a salary, more live show, you can just live and have a life while you try and get something going. Okay. But what it's not, you know, like with, with, especially with hardware products, and things like that, you know, it's it's big money to get things off the ground, and to get enough stock out there to do something at scale that it's worthwhile doing, and that kind of thing, you know, and we, we scaled up to it, but, you know, like 2030 grand here from a Kickstarter, 40 grand that that helped a lot. And we had these other businesses that would developing cash flow that we didn't need ourselves that we could just funnel into the new things we were doing. Yeah, so it was really like businesses on businesses that pay for the next business that paid for the next business. And so
it wasn't that we had, you know, $200,000 and, you know, it wasn't that we went to someone and said, this is our ID, you give us 250 k will give you half and then we'll go in, we didn't even think I just had enough cash flow to keep going. The next thing Yeah, show me Tommy and I going into business together at the end of the What advice do you have for going into a partnership? I think it's
mean the fact that you guys are doing this, and you have to hang around all the time, because it's easy just to be mates with someone when you seem once a week? Yeah, thing at the pub? Once a month? Yeah, yeah, anyone can do that. But I think what it is, is you've got to, you know, if you've got a little bit of stress or strain or something like this is an easy to get together friggin Diane, you do this, right. That's a good start. That, you know, you can work together even if when you maybe not at your best when you Todd when you can't be bothered, all that kind of thing. But I think another thing that I think is important is being in a similar predicament. So a good example is, so I need to have a kid so yeah, I'm pretty sure I get to work. Yeah. Okay. Not then. It's
Joe me to. Cobra. Exactly. We can organize it. Yeah,
well, I've got my camera in my hand right now.
Um, no. So I think if, you know, when we started, I think the good thing was, and I mean, this is the difference between Come come up with this sort of like an on even come up with this. I remember CP mentioning it retrospective retrospectively, that we see we've seen other people do it, and it hasn't worked out as well. But they've had, you know, they probably wanted different outcomes. Yeah, and they've been in a different position at the start. So when you like, starting positions, different, and in the end positions, different. Yeah, it's gonna be hot, like, really, really hard. Where if you're, you know, we both were in very similar position where we had, you know, we both had a house, we both had long term girlfriend at the time, which narrow wives we both had, we gave up good sort of things on the outside like Korea's, or you know, we're earning good money, same sort of sacrifice, sacrifice, lots of things to say, we could put in similar from both, we're putting similar money when we needed to from both sides. So and we both, you know, we wanted to this to be the thing that we were doing. Yeah, it's not like, Oh, you you go do that. But I still want to do this over here. So it was sort of easy at the start, we could and we could move forward sort of together. So I think, you know,
we like we wasn't a master plan. We didn't know all that beforehand. But in retrospect, we thinking it that's made it easier at the start. Yeah, because I think at the start, that's probably where the most Stress Stress and sort of pressure is to sort of make something work when things aren't actually work. It's not easy, then, is it? I mean, that's not easy. Now, it's never going to be easy. And I think the other thing is, you think,
I don't know if everyone thinks I definitely do, you know, I just got to get here. I just got to get to hear like that you never get to the finish line. It just keeps moving further away
before and that's near
meaning. We start when you're in Do you mean vision? Is this like, you guys are on the same trajectory together that you're looking ahead going? That's where we want to be? Yeah, I think so. And I think, you know, it's not like we, you know, not that structured that we would sit down and write a goal and have a vision board and all that kind of stuff. But it's just that, you know, you want to sort of make, you know, we want to make something bigger than ourselves. We wanted to, you know, push the limits, you know,
not because it like, I sort of think along the way, there's many times where you could just go, Okay, this is this is good. Now, this is nice. You could have sold out. Yeah, that you could have just sort now, this is where we'll keep it where we're comfortable at this level. But it is like that other thing that, you know, do you want to keep pushing and all that kind of thing. And I think as the, you know, when you first start as the two of you, you know, you know, little factory and, and Oakley I didn't know, and then and you're, you know, it's all on YouTube. And it's all between YouTube. It's not even your factory. You're robbing somebody.
And I mean, you gotta make ends meet. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, but then
off running, you know, clay will be Amen. Well,
we got robbed twice. Yeah, it wasn't us was, was
still by the way. Yeah, camera gear knowing.
But then, you know, now, you know,
I can almost go a whole day without talking to CP, my what's for lunch or something? Because there's all these other people, you're doing different things you're talking like, it gets so much more spread out? How did you work out where to hire? And how do you know, if you actually need more people, we probably Hi, super slow. And, you know,
we were I think, you know, in looking back at it, we do things a bit, you know, it's differently. But for me, it's sort of just intuitively, it's a way to do it. Whereas we don't like go raise a hope of money and hire hope people and hope them will get that product market fit, right. And then eventually a market will match. You know, I sit up and we do the opposite. We keep it lean. And then we try and make this massive wave and then we try and ride the wave, then we try get other people on the wave as, as we're going, we're not so I'd say we're always probably
so you're under leveraged, we're probably always under leveraged yet. But that that gives you the freedom to be added do more stuff, like not everything has to work perfect. You know, when we want to win, we want to scale something we want to, you know, digging. And we when we feel the Tom's rod on something we can go really hard. We we can
you know we and a lot of what we do we do it in a scalable way. So we don't just you know, that's why our frustrations over the years dealing with the old school sort of like distribution and things like that come from that there's all these Kate systems and inefficiencies and people in the way. And we just sort of think if we can get enough people that like what we do and want our product and we look after them. And we can do that in like a, you know, a sustainable way that's scalable. We don't need to have you know, a ton of people. You've probably seen how we work just like, I don't know, like,
I only know the way we do it in here. But then when I talk to people on the outside, I'm like, Oh, I wouldn't do it that way. Yeah, yeah.
Um. What I find hampshire's need first and then go and fix it and then go make keep up with the demand I suppose which I think one of the interesting challenges ease knowing when to switch on growth or to switch on you know, because that sort of undelivered thing I think about when I would do projects for an auto when I was an employee and nice on and I would, we went around the world for three months, we flights accommodation per day, and all of our camera equipment for 50 grand, right, like faculty money like we did it for Well, the thing was, and we will start like with staying in the shiniest places super rights in LA, where people knocking on the door asking us to open up proxies for
the Roxy. And the thing is that it's um, the reflection that nicely on and I had was it like,
call us never told us the budget, we set the budget. And so we had, we had inevitably, like, we could have said, 70 grand for yourself. Yeah.
And so there is that little bit where it's like, at what point is this smola thinking? or? Yeah, let's do it. Lane. When is it actually like a limiting factor? But I think because it can be limiting, but you're just looking at one one thing, so just say you took all the money you had was 100. Yeah. And you had 50 on that, like, and you've got another 50? What can you do with that other 50 where I'm sort of thinking, if I've got, I've got 100 is the number if I can, you know, if I if I have to do this, I'll do this for 30 and, and keep 74 what really scale something. So, you know, like, when we talk about it, I'd be like,
I like I look at someone shooting it full on TV, say, I find out that they spent $400,000 on it. Yeah. And then I went, Whoa, I'm thinking $5,000, you've got to spend like, you know, 10s of millions on that to to leverage that kind of, and then they find out they spend 600,000 showing it to people here. And I'm like, okay, that's where I would go and, you know, try and get the best product possible for 50 and spend 950 showing it to people. So where do you think you overspend? Then if someone looked at your business? What would the traditional people say that you ended if you looked at maybe they might say, we spend too much on marketing. But if they look at the how the business has grown, and I really understood it may be like, oh, maybe you should spend more on marketing. So marketing mains, Facebook means what does it mean to you? Yeah, like, you know, like Facebook, Google and kind of stuff, the scalable stuff, the stuff that, you know, pays the bills, the stuff that really, you know, I mean, nowadays, when it comes to like, you know, product, I think what it is, is, you know, we've got, so we got three people making product, I'll designing product, we can only will spend as much as we can to leverage that and get the best stuff to market possible. But it keeps itself you can only do so much at a certain time. And you can only push something at a certain speed. Yeah. But then when it comes to, once you've got that product, and you've got that system to push the product through,
you can start to scale. And when you can scale it, it's kind of like, all right, so we've got all this firewood and the fires this big, but we to people, we can burn this small thing fired over the two people that we've got, we can bring the whole lot of we want. And because it's translating that though, like so. So if you make it does, you spend five bucks and get three sales does that mean when you spend 10 bucks, you get season, you get diminishing returns on everything, so that you get to a point where it works well, and as you push past it, but that's the that's where the art of it is. And it's not necessarily always any spreadsheets in you. Sort of working zap, because we're in a we're in a market where we've got seasons, and we're worldwide. But then we've also got releases of galaxy devices really serve often devices. So we've got this crazy seasonality. Yeah, that goes through which not just to do with it being hot and cold, hot and cold, as well as people riding their bikes in, the more people are running on. Now, we do comment stuff. Now we're doing stuff for this stuff that so it's always changing. And I think one of the toughest things for us is we have to understand the market because we can't really use our historical data that well, because we've never been the same for that long. So you can do if you do have ways of road mapping or predicting and how close are you with us, we, we used to, we used to try to it, but now it's just, you know, we're pretty sure we'll sell a lot like when an iPhone x, it's like, just make as many as we can at the start, and then we'll catch up and then we'll, it'll work its way out. But when it comes to it, you know, just say, if you look at something like something simple, you know, like, it's not simple, but like the funnel, how we sell,
we can run that with the people we have he and that you can run that full, you know, to, you know,
a million people or more or thousand dollars, or we can run it to, you know, 50 million people and, you know, much credit sum of money like that stuff, spending more, or talking to more people or getting the story heard by more people doesn't necessarily mean more staff doesn't mean more. It just means scaling what what we're doing systems doing because at the end of the day, I think that's where the US where we've had the wins and also what's what means we can we can keep going and what and what pays for all the new stuff we want to do you guys doing pretty well on social media. Thanks to Josh who made all the video
Well, the funny thing is, quad lock is one of those clients it's like they're knowing when I Rob knows what Rob knows what he wants, like Rob like you it was more my job was to help him just implement the things that he knew that he needed to do. Because they've over all these. The one thing that I've learned about quad lock is just you create a system and then you've just got to sort of test against it. And as soon as you remove the system, you're, then that's where it becomes a little bit harder to actually measure success. I mean, everything we do we just trying to bait what we did. Yeah.
And so it's like, we will try anything, but we're trying it in a way that we can learn from it. And we can either go it's a it wins or loses. And I think that way of thinking for me is like perfectly fine. I feel really comfortable with a DA realized over time that it takes a little while for people to be comfortable with that. And it's and it's it's it's not saying that you because I know Josh could make us a video that he'd show you and you'd love it and it will look amazing. And it would
be actually a better video. I mean, better is this subjective thing
is what is what looks exactly maybe you cry like and I know just from working on the cosmic stuff is you guys at crafting it to the I guess niche audiences? Yeah, yeah. You know, will you No, respond to those? Yeah, those Yes. guy who actually got an office around the corner from here. He's, he does marketing stuff. But he was telling me the story. And I think you've probably heard some version of this where it's spray tan business, you know, spins $800,000 worth of ad spend through Facebook and essentially Facebook on their business. You know, it's like around that, you know, I know you guys probably a lot into Yeah, social media, how much of that plays on your mind that you're it on borrowed land? It does. But I'd rather
you know, I think there's, there's only one way to have access to the, to the people, right, and there's this, you know, providing good content, getting people to, you know, opt in to your content, things like is, is good. Could we ever have had enough people just opt into your organic content to keep this thing going impossible. So, it's kind of like it damned if you do damned if you don't, but I do think on I mean, for me personally, I sort of think you know, like when radio first You know, when print first started, this person's people who first started printing the first dad's probably did really well. And then when radio started first people avatars and right, it probably did really well. And then, you know, TV people on TV stuff for we did really well. And then, you know, now we have the whole web two point O and social media things that and the people who you look around people who figured it out quick,
didn't do very well in and there's a lot of businesses built around a very similar Tom that have done very well through it, because I understand it and now we're new to it. And the good thing was, it wasn't a big kind of money in it. That means, you know, to go get a front you know, because the kind of people that the kind of numbers that car stuff it's, it's not like it's more than if you went and got like the front page of the Herald Sun, right? Yeah, but do you know what it costs to get the front page of the Herald Sun predictable? Do you
have to murder someone? Yeah,
but But do
you know what I mean? It's, it's so expensive. Yeah, because you're going up against people who don't need to make return on their investment. And they just, they decided they boss all look, we got the Herald Sun, isn't that cool, that's great. Does anyone read it, I don't know what they living in, though, for that kind of stuff. Like, I don't know, either. But people are still selling it, they're still getting that money. Which is crazy. I think it's like, I think it's like you see, the thing is, there's all these industries built around it. There's, there's advertising agencies built around it, there's media buying agencies built around that all this you know, even though the people aren't there, all this other stuff and they're selling it on has to fall down before you know, habits changed. The main thing I worry about, it's not that fast going into certain thing is that I look at you know, where where the big budgets come into it and what as things get more expensive in that kind of thing. But then at the same time, we have a product that people come back and buy again and again and again. So we have to get the foothold in the market that we're in now even if you come with a bigger budget
you know maybe more product still you can't just click your fingers and have like a brand name synonymous with a certain industry yeah and that's sort of what qualities and yeah you know if you want something to mount your phone where the best way the best thing on the market in an active lifestyle
yeah and how much of how much have you changed from the time that you started to now you capacity and and what what you think about on a daily basis it's a good question I'm sure I've changed because it happens slowly and over time you don't well for example seed or feel it as much as well as my wife's got a candle business and no one year successful is called Love My wife's candles dot com, you can you can get to her candles through there. Does anyone know I think time I bought that.
But I do own a bike fishing. I try.
But we went through the just something very little. And I guess you know, you're playing this big space. And this is something we went into this little business that she started and we got a website and we got a candle order. And her friend bought one in Sydney, we paid for the shipping, it went there. A month later, I open up the mailbox at my office, there's the candle that you sent, it had been sent back to us, we got charged a fee for having it sent back to us. And my point of saying all this is that these are all the things that you just would never think about. When you go into a business. I
need a closed
No, no. But yeah, you know, early day compared to now, like your capacity now, I imagine would be to
take on to take on all this. You're not thinking about the interview time, just in the case out now. But I think what we did do, it goes back to that I remember what we did do is like I said, when we did like, you know, opener and cloud, like, we want it to be scalable from sort of day one, we tried to make it
we tried to make it so that if we had success doing what we're doing, then we wouldn't have all this other crazy work of shipping stuff. We still did all that. Don't worry, buddy.
The way we sort of set it up was more scalable, like from day one. And I think it's just, you know, being aware of what's out there, what's available, like, back then in Australia, there wasn't anything AP really missed the boat on e commerce and things like that. But amazon prime is
there are no sorrow post
So that was it was the I was gonna ask what I pay was, yeah. And so I'm proud of the guests. Thanks. Yeah.
Now, Amazon wasn't here.
But the thing was, so I think I think when you do something like this, what it is and I see this other businesses is what you don't want to do is be set up in a way that if you have success doing what you call thing is whatever that thing is that you then make all this other bullshit on sundry work that you don't want to be doing. So like, you know,
a good example might simple example might be are you you set up a, you know, selling something, right, and you're there and you're selling, and you're doing the job that you meant to be doing, which is selling this product or providing this service. But then what you don't want to have is that when you do that, it actually takes you like, three hours every night to reconcile your books or to, you know, go through in handwriting invoices, you want a good system in the background, that while you're doing what you meant to be doing, having success here, this part will take care of itself. So to a certain extent. So everything we've done is trying to have a setup somewhat like that. And sometimes we've done it better than better than others. What's been
your priorities? What do you like doing? What do you hate doing? What's something that you ended up doing that you think it's not it's
not necessarily that stuff's not like, what you lock or you hate, it's what what makes it makes a difference, you know, has a real impact. So, you know, if it's, you know,
we're better off sitting down, and like working out the right copy to having a video that people want to hear and make them transact, then, you know, you know, then packing 10 orders or doing this or doing that, like, that has to be done. But it is a system that we can use and pay someone else to do that, that scalable way, like, you know, you need people who know the product, who are sort of thinking outside the box to try and make the thing that will give you those 1020, 3040
hundred 400,000 orders. So what do you actually care about? Like, what do you think about in the sense of getting often it's just simple stuff? Like, what can we do it again, another correlate customer?
And is it is that financially driven? Like, do you have financial goals? Like, we think it's just, it's just, you know, look, I think a lot of it's been over the past, you know, at the start, it's just because we need them so we can keep doing what we're doing, like at the very start, then it becomes this thing that, you know, we want to be the best in the space, you know, we want to be the number one yeah, then you try and do that, and then it becomes that now, everyone's trying to copy you and take you on. And number one, how do you how do you measure that? Like, if you see, you know, you never going to get accurate stats, right. So, I see things like, and I mean, and then you look on Amazon as a lot of like, $20 amounts. So, but I don't see that as our sort of, how much is it called Muslim? You know, 6995? Or how do you how do you justify us? That is, how much do you how do you work out what something costs to be honest time, it's, I'm guessing, it's guessing, but parts of it when we first started was what it costs to make something. Yeah, and then work, you know, work work up, not go from here. Because when we started, there wasn't a thing that was
a benchmark. Yeah,
so you're not going, Okay, the market pays 100 know, we've got to try and make it work for 100. So we're going to be out of make it ship it, you know, custom support returns, all those kind of things. It was more Okay, cost us this much. And we need to make this much we need to do this. And we need to be able to reinvest in the business. Any marketing, it's going to look somewhere around about here. Yeah, and we just did it with that. And then at the end of that, you go to what people would pay for this. Do you see that right? And then when you you put it as a dot 95, and it sounds
good. I'll put sale next
to it. Tell me and I trying to work out what we prioritize with our business. So
we're doing media type stuff. original content? Is that that mean that you've got to move the car? Tommy
15 minutes? Why that went off? Maybe it was you said it earlier? Yeah. The cause the
Yeah, original, its original media type company or that sort of thing? What are you saying? Robbie, feel free to say it out loud. To tell us a con. Is it too cold? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Do I just press a neon? I true? There we go. You know,
so, um, yeah, Tommy and i doing this thing. We're trying to work out where to invest our money in the sense of do we is, is a is an office space worthwhile? How do you work out? I think it's, I think it's, um, what it comes back to invest where it matters. That's for me. I mean, like, we could have afforded a bigger, better office space probably years ago, but it wasn't the priority. Yeah. And then, you know, it became more of a priority is will growing, we wanted a bit of cool spot and that kind of thing. And you sort of come to realization, you know, it's, I mean, everyone I know, lots of people, everyone who works, he likes coming to work, and we have a good time. And it's pretty fun place. But it is NASA being in a nice spot. But it's nice, you know, like, there was a quad lock it, who knows? Yeah, because put a price on it. So you can't have price on call. So you, you can't. But at the same time, you know, that's why we're in a, you know, factoring Oakley, when we started kind of thing. So it's a big, it's a nice to have. And we can, we can afford to have some nice to have sneer kind of thing. But I think that I think, you know, early early on, we just instinctively would go for, you know, the things that matter of the things that are like that, like, one of the things we always say is like, what's going to move the needle, because if you can do this, this, this and this. Which thing is actually going to move the new what's going to make a difference in what we do. And why is that and then we gravitate more towards the things that are going to make a difference. Because there's a lot of stuff you can spend time and energy on that never make a difference. And I think awesome example is with this podcast is only having the jingle and the logo. Yeah, by Episode 100. Yeah. And I and I know when we when we spoke on the phone, anything, you just organizing that? Yeah, I was like, I wasn't. I just like, yeah, that's awesome that you're doing it now. Because I know you like doing that. Yeah, but the good thing is, it's a teaching since Of course he has. But the good thing is like the old JJ would have done it and done three episodes. Yeah, and, and be on to something else. I want
to put the third one off gone to Macworld.
Seriously, and then so now, you know, like, because actually, no one gives a shit about the jingle old logo example. Probably you Yeah, so. But you've done 100 episodes deep. You've got this thing, you know. Yeah, treat yourself. Get the new joint. Get the logo. Get the jingle. But concentrate on like, what matters. Nothing. That's what when I was texting you the other day and said um, you know, like, congrats on getting to episode kind of remote. I said Congrats, rapes that 100 St. us thinking NASA Tom, this is, this is, this is me, this is what I would do. Yeah, and I don't know the metrics behind podcasting. And I don't know the space as well as you guys do. But I'm just thinking, I speak broadly about just, you know, if it's business, or what? Or is it just achieving something I would like I sing at the start, you can't be super critical of what you're doing. You just got to go. You just got to move forward at all costs. Because you actually you don't know what you don't notice. And point when you first start
self edit you at the beginning, you just wouldn't have any words on the page. Like, complain. It's like, you know,
do open a case get ripped off. And if there's a million of them sold now, and then not ass, right? Yeah. But if we never move forward with if we stopped it, we couldn't afford a pain. If we hadn't done in the first place. We wouldn't have got in doing quad lock. Right. So. And that's the game as well. I think that the other thing too, is, it's like, it's realizing like, what is the reason not be the actual thing. Yeah, you don't know. What's the thing? I'm exactly, but you just gotta keep moving forward or costly. But it's what Amy said. Yeah,
he said, it might not be clear eyed 630 that you then go hang on, the penny drops, kinda Penny drops. And you realize this wasn't the thing. But it had you had to do it get you have to
do it. And it's kind of like 3d printers, lasers, you know, open a potluck main record looks not the thing you don't know. But it's, you know, you don't. It's like it's the journey. It's not the destination. At the end of the day. Like I said, the finish line is, keeps moving further away. But I think at a certain point, once you've just pushing forward and you push forward and push forward to certain point where you've got that flow, and you starting to do it, that's when you got to get self aware and sort of self critical and stock on. Okay, so we're doing this while we're doing that, does that make a difference? What is it that, you know, like for you guys? I don't know, whether it be what is it makes users Connect? Where do you find out that you're getting new people from like, for us, it's, you know,
okay, we're doing this, we're doing that we're doing this kind of ads, we're doing this kind of product, we, you know, we actually don't stick that well, in that market. We, we have a good product, the people who have it like it. We're not that good at getting lots more people in that model for some reason. But Hi, this is other market over here where we're just crushing it. And we're not even trying that hot. Actually, why don't we try really hard there, Niall, that we can always come back to this thing inside and to get critical of yourself. Even if you'd like something, you removing the emotion. Yeah, and removing the emotion being sort of logical, logical to a point where it almost makes people feel, I think, uncomfortable at start. But then once you get used to it, it's actually liberating. Because you can go I'm not doing that. You know, it's like with emails. Like, if I don't reply to lots of emails, yeah,
but I don't really feel bad about it either. But I think that's like, even Tommy and I on this journey. The more we get in, the more we are open to critiques as individuals where we say, okay, that one, that show didn't feel right, I think it was because of x, y, and Zed. I think we could do this. We could do that. It's like, it's, you don't want to have that the start because at the start usually shows you from doing you literally just trying to it's sort of like you're running up when you're running up rocking numbers enough. Yeah, exactly. To start with. And yeah. And so now we're starting to, but you've nailed it rocking out part. Yeah, exactly. Not just except just rocking ups enough anymore. So how do you stop from just getting like, have you gotten bored through any of the, the jaw? Not?
Not really, I find as soon as I think about that, something changes or something happens. And I get
pumped about, oh, this is going to be hard. Or this is I don't know how to do this. Or, you know, we got to go and work this out. You know, we're doing this new thing. How do you think we're going to like when, you know, just the thought process kicks at something and then you just go and then you you know, you end up running around for three weeks with Josh shooting from like the six till six every day writing scripts that and you know, that kind of thing. Like, as soon as
something always pops up to me. And I think if you're, you know, when you really immersed in
and you think about it a lot.
I remember had someone say to me once, see, see. So you just do you just do the iPhone case thing. Yeah, yeah,
just just the, I think so. So you and you. So just you and I might not, I think we might have like, six or seven people at a time. So there's like, six or seven of us, they go. So what are those guys work on
the iPhone case thing
that simplify it for this person, right? That
that's what I mean, like, you know, there's, I think it's like a, then this is much or as little as you want to get into it.
If you don't really get into it, that much. The problem not going to get that much out of it. But, you know, the world's complex and I, I think it's all the little wins that add up in the long run. It's not the one big silver bullet. But at the end saying that there's very start, there's big things that make big differences. Then as you as you nail it, like, you know, rocking out what we talked about, like, just just getting a show on the internet for people to listen to, is if you if you're not doing that one big thing, you can't have success. But once you've done that, then these all these little things that will, you know, get that compounding effect and start to really add up in the long run. And it's not a thing of I I find the that the quote, We overestimate what we can do in a day and underestimate what we can do any you like, that really resonates with me. Yeah, cuz there's so many times where I'm also
I've just got these big dreams of what I you know, it's like I speak to your paralysis is it's too big. So, you know, this, there's this film students who say they want to go to Hollywood, but they haven't made a single film yet. Yeah, and they're missing that whole other, they're missing the journey and they they don't realize that the journey is the is the fun bit, right. It's like, what is it is it totally is like, I think that like, I think back to when we started and everything we've done along the ways I mean, I heard CP said there are the good old days when we could just do this. Yeah.
And I think he was, you know, we don't think all you know, we weren't paying ourselves or we had this show. I think that was friggin awesome. Yeah, so much fun. It's not really about it's nice to have success. But you know, when you if you just doing it for money, or for whatever, you could go home and be really not very nice person to be around where, you know, I know I can go home feel good about what we get done in a day. Sometimes I get nothing done in a day. But if hang around with good people. And I know we're on a on a way to getting something done. And you feel good about it. Where if you if you just I think I've read this thing the other day saying, you know,
a business that soul purposes is money is a poor business. Yeah. And when I read that, I think, I don't know who said it. Someone that probably on
that sort of resonated with me, because he Yeah, it's, it's true. You know, you you've got all these parts to business. It's like the customer facing part, good product, good brand. You know, we get awesome stories back all the time. And we love that people are running around the world with quite a lot. We level that. But then you got, you know, the people of color lock and what they're doing. And you know, the lifestyle they get to live as they work here. And the fun stuff we get to do. And there's all these different parts to a business that's not you know, not in a bank account. Not in the p&l, not in, not in that kind of thing. It's, you know, the fact you get to rock up and do fun stuff. Yeah.
is a big part. I mean, you had an exciting thing happen not too long ago, Ali came into the world. Your pan have your first kid. Yep.
What would I
was 27th of March. You have to think about it. Yeah. idea. Yeah. So
you're trying to solve them? Not? Not even.
Well, you sound very young. So. Yeah, he's a year younger. Yeah. Yeah. Just to say 10 weeks, 11 weeks old today. And so what's the what's the what's been the lining vision to get shit all it's not. Yeah. vomit all a black. I was.
He's tip that again. Yeah.
state of martial arts. In fact, Bodie. Say I saw that
now I think it's it changed your perspective on stuff yeah and
you know when you have like mind shift changes in these things happen over time that is something that happens on its especially first dad yeah
yeah probably moms to get that a bit along the journey of being pregnant but did you find that like definitely it just all of a sudden it was funny different I saw around eight oh and just seem to who brought in the coffee just before in Collingwood though riding their bikes to work. Yeah, and Ali had just arrived in the world. And I said, Ah, what's been happening and they might give you heard from Rob much. Like, like, not, they said, he was he said he was gonna like, he's like, yeah, as soon as soon as we have a kid, I'm gonna be back in at all that sort of thing. And like, and that was sort of laughing how much of a shift I saw in like, how sort of, cuz you pretty Why did you pretty sort of on the ball with things and there was they were talking about a noticeable shift. Yeah,
how do you describe, describe that shift? It's, you know, unintentional it is, it just happens you don't,
it's not a decision where most things in life I find, especially for me most things in life up for me, uh, you know, like, I will not really do things that practical. You talk on this sort of, like a very sort of logical, practical, so Yeah, why? Yeah. So it's a decision I why things up like this and maybe wrong, right? But that's, that's how I do it. And that thing is just happens to and you just like, oh, OK, so I feel like this near
How do you describe what is it? Is it a desire to believe after him? Not yet,
this is there's that but I think it just puts things in perspective. And you, you know, what's important is still important. But it's, it's it's scale is changed of importance, I think,
for work. And for this community. I think it
I think it's, for me, I'm like, for me, it doesn't really probably make a difference. And I probably cope otherwise. But I'm glad it's sort of happened at a time at a time now, for the company and for me, but at the same time, you know, I'm sure I would have been wrapped to have for it to happen at any time. Now thinking about because it just becomes, you know, the you have, all these things are important. And you think that they've got this hierarchy of importance, and then all of a sudden, something just shoots right up the list and goes to number one, and, you know, okay, that's what happens. Can I don't think you can think, you know, we're talking about before, I'm aware that I will feel like this because it's natural, and it's instinctual, and all these kind of things.
But even like, getting better, and thinking like that, before it come along, I was still under estimating it. Yeah, you can't really put yourself in like, for example, Eric, and Tommy will be thinking about what I'm saying differently to the way you're thinking about what I'm saying God, even though you're aware of this, and you've probably heard the same thing from multiple people. Yeah, if you
guys are in the cold, I'm still sort of like looking at the cult band. Like, yeah, sort of. I get have
a smiling and nodding. Yeah.
So like, what sort of empathy did that build with? Because CP, you know, your co founder and might have, yeah, and the kid before? Yep. I think that for me was also I got to see that a fair bit as well. And that sort of sets a little not an expectation, but it sets the tone. Yes, it's a tone I supposed to do you think do we use sort of under it sound like you are under estimating? It's still in the sense of you like a
I think what it was, I was ready to x. I knew I wouldn't be able to theorize what this one's going to be like. So I was ready to accept whatever comes my way. Yeah, but it's the same thing as before. Like, people ask me like to care of two boys. I was I was really like, I actually do not care if it's a boy or girl. I don't mind I just, I wanted Oh, I'll just, I'm happy. Yeah. And like, I mean, lots of people, lots of my mates like, Oh, you must be stuck. It's a boy. And actually, now that that I have a boy rough, but you talk with board. I remember really clearly sitting there and thinking me one way or the other. I'm thinking No, I'm neither. Why I don't mind what it is.
So I think, you know, if you listen to these podcasts, Josh and I talked about this a bit and you know, Josh, a very, you know, thinking about how he's thinking that's my phone. That's my God. You thinking about how you would be thinking in that moment. And so, Justin, yes, go out the window. Yeah, yeah,
I think you can, some degree can be useful in a lot of people, parts of life. But I think if there's parts of life, where if you think you're going to sum it all up in one thought, and you're going to nail it maybe this is one of those parts we just not gonna Yeah,
I think that there is putting the practical had on for a sec, I feel like there is a there's definitely not a right time to do anything, especially having a kid or getting married or doing those big things business. But starting a business, I think that the ease I think what it makes it harder for a lot of people is you hear this and so and we're so used to using our gut instinct on so many things in life and the ID I think that they is a middle ground where I think that you both knew that you're ready to take on that challenge. Or what it you know, whatever it was, you were open to that opportunity. And that's all you can really do. And I think that that's Yeah, you're ready to accept whatever it is. Yeah, that's the way it's gonna make on offense. So much option
roller coaster, but it makes you like, for me, it was the most vulnerable state I've ever been in here. Thinking about your kid could have problems before, maybe I mean, to the world and you have mispronounce it to about that. Yeah. And it's like, whoa, I'm so out of control. Yeah. And, you know, business life like a lot of time you were trying to control our environment. Yeah, it's one thing you definitely
have to be willing to accept. What Yeah, what is gonna end I mean, the other thing is, this is the other thing and just when you think you've got like, this is post kid just when you think you've got it now, like I think I you know, I can get him so I got a few tools at my sleeve. I can do this I can do that. can do this. too excited. They change any like, what the hell this used to work. It's not working anymore. What it sounds like
you described being iPhone. So it's like, yeah, you don't know if it's going to have that many bugs, they get them sorted. And if I can do another Alessi everything's changed
what's been more rewarding baby or called lock
finishes. Yeah, I feel like Tommy's the only one that can can ask that one yeah,
there's only one answer
Thank you Rob for for joining us friend of the show you you are one of the guests that that listens regularly. So thank you for that. And for, you know, the occasional text of a feedback things like
what is your review is probably the best review we've had
on iTunes. Yeah, it was it says like, random but grace or something. And it was referring to the fact that they go all over the place, but it's sort of what makes it Yeah, that's exactly no destination mind. But somehow it finds its way back to him some way
liked it. No, no, now I'm now I'm remembering it. Yeah,
we've got it. We got a couple of emails. Oh, yeah, we got wine. Yeah. Wayne Peters, who is a relative of mine like my mum's one of 11 kids. Yeah. So it's like the the basically everyone in Victoria like I'm delighted to announce in some regard so Wayne's been listening going from July to Abbotsford every day Thank you for listening Michelle sent a beautiful email as well about the topic of suicide and all that sort of thing from yesterday that one yeah cuz I ever it first but yeah, feel free to send through your emails. Hyper daily talk show.com. We'll have to get Rob will have to get you back on when I come back from my trip. I haven't told you about this. But is there some kind of the daily talk show code for people who want to buy
one get 1% off
they get 10%. If you just go to the website, you can fill out your email address, you get 10% on costs until the daily talk its own daily talk show. Exactly. And the iTunes reviews may sort of help. Yeah,
I think there
may be no ego boost. Thanks Rob. Have a good one. Cheese guys. Thanks, Mike.