Matt Davella Craig Harper 1000 Minute Live Stream

Tommy: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronk Squad.

Josh: That's crazy! We've committed to do the daily talk show for 10 years.

Tommy: Hi guys. Hi guys.

Josh: Put it in the calendar. I'd just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Tommy: It is outrageous.

Josh: Come on, let's go.

Tommy: Matt D'Avella.

Josh: Matt D'Avella is in the studio via web video. Video link, uh, via satellite.

Tommy: Where is he?

Josh: It looks—

Matt: does it look pretty good? I mean, last time I did this with you guys, it looked awful.

Josh: No, no, it looks great, man. I, um—

Tommy: what camera are you using?

Matt: You got your EOS or your, uh, the C70? I, uh, yeah, I just upgraded. Not very minimalist.

Josh: That looks great, looks beautiful. Um, so you have joined us, uh, how far in are we, TJ?

George: How long have we, uh—

Tommy: Matt, we've got 4 hours to go, which means we're like 12 Hours in, nearly 12. Yeah, under—

Matt: I cannot believe— yeah, dude, I cannot believe that you guys have been doing it for this long. I actually started to scrub through and take a look at what I missed, and, uh, I got about 5 minutes of content.

Tommy: Give us the, uh, you know, the vibe.

Matt: Yeah, the vibe. Well, when I first tuned in, it seemed like you guys, um yeah, you were hanging on by a thread. But since, uh, you know, I went back and I saw that there is actually quite a lot of energy early on in the podcast. And so, uh, I saw some music performance by Jack, which was beautiful, like brought me to tears. That was amazing.

Josh: And Georgie, do you like golf, by the way? Are you, are you a fan of golf too, Will?

Matt: I'm not very good at golf, and I, I, I— it's one of those things that I like to play, but I'm I played with my father-in-law once and it was just purely embarrassing and he like really stuck to the rules. And so it was like I had to like look in the forest for my ball for like 35 minutes and I was like, this is not how I want to play. I just want to drop a ball and keep going. But yeah, no, I'm not very good.

Josh: Yeah. And so you're mentioning Georgie boy. He's downstairs right now. Georgie boy, how are you, mate?

George: Georgie.

Craig: Yeah, good boys.

George: I'm putting for you today, Matt. So if I get one of these 3 balls in the cup, then you win a cup and we'll post it up to you.

Josh: Have you still got the, um, the, uh, the hoodie, Diavella, or has that been chucked?

Tommy: Let's go back to George.

Matt: Look, I kept it for a while.

Josh: Yeah, you did, man, you did. You— I feel like you were even—

Tommy: it's currently on a homeless guy, uh, in LA, in Venice.

George: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: No, but I feel like it got a, it got a really good run. It made it in a few videos. It was, it's, it's all fine. Yeah.

Tommy: Um, we've made—

Matt: I think it was a little bit oversized. I think if it fit me better, I would have worn it more. Uh, I know that look works for a lot of people, but the baggy, you know, I want— I need like a, I need a small.

Josh: Okay. Yeah, great. Perfect. We can, we can send you that.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: No, well, you're getting the—

Matt: and then I'll donate it in 6 months.

Josh: Yeah, to, yeah, to someone else. So, uh GB, you ready?

George: Here we go.

Josh: Okay, first putt.

Matt: Oh, oh, got it!

Josh: In one! Matty Vella, you have just won your very own big cup!

Tommy: Can we, can we get him a, uh, what is it, Wendy's cup as well?

Josh: George, can you—

Tommy: 3 in a row, baby! Yep, he wants a Wendy's cup too, and probably I'll send him some books as well.

Josh: Okay, great, perfect. This is, this is really good. And so the, the idea was that, uh, if, uh, GB, you get 3 in a row, then you get the Wendy's cup?

Craig: Yeah, yeah, that's correct.

George: Yeah, 3 in a row, you get the Wendy's cup.

Josh: Okay, which is a bigger cup.

George: Bigger cup.

Josh: Okay, all right, so here you go. I hope you like the reverb too, DML. That took a while to set up.

George: No, missed.

Josh: Oh, so it's all done, it's all done.

George: Sorry about that, Matt. Uh, you're just getting the Daily Talk Show cup.

Matt: That is a nice—

George: I know when you were down here, when you're in the studio, you did mention the Wendy's cups, you liked them. We tried to get you to use it on camera, but you did say no.

Matt: You know, you got to pay me, you know, it's like as a YouTuber, it's like if I have any brand in the shot, I'm getting paid for it.

Josh: Oh, definitely. What are you— What have you been up to in Sydney lately? What's going on?

Matt: Oh man, um, you know, lately— oh, what have we— oh, I went to a wedding. That was really cool.

Tommy: So you're dancing?

Matt: That was cool. Yeah, that was the first wedding that I had gone to, oh man, probably in a year, year and a half. And, um, I mean, it was, it was the first time I was around a group of people. Like, it was— being on that dance floor was like therapeutic. I was like just like embracing the sweaty moves and the— Oh yeah, I didn't grind, I didn't grind, it got weird.

Tommy: Degrease those hips. Did you, um, Matt, I saw that a bunch of people, uh, who from your, your motherland of— was sort of calling you out or saying, uh, something about COVID Like, obviously they— I mean, you just have to deal with that kind of stuff at a bigger level than we do. We get yelled at by people in the street, you get yelled at on the internet by thousands. If you ever stuff up. But the difference in Australia versus America, what was the feedback you got?

George: Yeah.

Matt: Well, it's always funny whenever anybody says anything mean in like a DM, like somebody will say something that's kind of like rude or like being mean or like, like, that video you made sucks. And then I'm like, oh, I'm sorry you feel that way. And then they say, oh man, big fan. And I'm like, like every time, every time they're actually like really nice people. But I think they just like, I don't know, maybe they had a bad day or like I don't know, they just wanted attention. And so yeah, some people saw the video that I posted of like me on the dance floor, just like with my iPhone, like bumping up into like 30 people. And a couple of people got upset being like thinking that I was breaking the COVID rules. And so I just wanted to be clear in, cause like, I don't want people to misinterpret it if they don't really know how great life is in Australia right now. And so I had to kind of just let people know that. Um, yeah, they're— we are following the restrictions, and the restrictions allow us to grind on a dance floor.

Tommy: Yeah, I think WAP is invited to all dance floors.

Matt: Um, yeah, by the way, I don't think— I don't think I mentioned this. Um, I, I was starting to say as I like looked over the recap, but Georgie Boy, uh, put together an insane edit with the, the 1,000.

George: Oh, thank you, that is so nice. What a compliment. Thanks, Matt.

Matt: Yeah, I know.

George: I appreciate it.

Tommy: Matt, have you heard of Pancake Day?

Matt: Are you happy over there or like, are you looking to maybe get a new job?

Josh: You've got him vulnerable and tired right now.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: I mean, it's these sorts of things like doing a livestream. We did the 24-hour stream. It's— you sort of get into this sort of weird state of silliness and like, we can't. I can't gauge if we're making any sense at the moment. Uh, have you— when was the last time you had that level of euphoria through doing work or doing something?

Matt: Oh man, that's a really specific question right now.

Josh: I get more and more specific the tighter that I get. Do you have any friends that have an L and an F in their first and last names? That's too specific, isn't it?

Matt: I would say no.

Josh: I'm just gonna say no because that's That's the easier answer. No, what about like, a lot— like, think about like, uh, long nights editing all the time. Like, do you, do you ever— are you pulling all-nighters?

George: I—

Matt: so like, when I'm working towards a deadline, I will work, uh, a lot more than I typically do. Like, right now I'm actually working on a course, and it's like, these are like basically like making feature films because You know, it's, I have to make 26 videos and they're anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes on top of everything I already do. And so it's like, you work like 10 to 12 hour days and just back to back to back. And like, I don't work, I don't do all-nighters just because like, I think if anything was that pressing, I would just push the deadline. But like, if you have a lot of work to do over a period of like a month, I will. And I think it's like, I don't, oh no. Yeah, actually that's so funny that you even mentioned that because like Nat and I, we were both in the same boat where my wife Nat and I are both working really hard towards a deadline. And, um, at the end of the day, we just started getting silly, like giggling over the dumbest shit, just like hysterically laughing at like how burnt out we were. I don't know if you've ever gotten to that point where it's just like, what is our— like, if you're not happy but you're happy, I don't know.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt: You're like falling apart.

Josh: I think it's even like from a, from a food perspective, we're saying like it feels like, um, we've been on a flight, like, like not to get too graphic, but like I like it.

Tommy: Don't get it.

Josh: Yeah, like tomorrow, what's, what's going on?

Tommy: It feels like your internals have just— it's like muddy water. It's just like stopped, you know, it's like a dam that has no flow of water. You just feel— that's what you feel like.

Josh: Surprisingly, I've nearly closed my, um, my move ring with your arm, which is pretty impressive.

Tommy: Um, what about early days, mate, when you were freelancing, uh, more making content for brands? Um, and clients. Did you ever do any crazy shoots, long drives, or like trying to get back from one side of the country to another?

Matt: I think the, the craziest shoots I would do— and, and these would be edits— but like there were a string of, I think, like 5 to 10 edits that I did, um, within a few week period where Reebok had, um asked me, or I was hired by another production company, but they basically were giving me the footage at 10 PM and then I had to turn around the edit by 8 AM. So it was an overnight edit. That was the first time I ever tried Adderall, which works really well.

Tommy: Really?

George: Yeah.

Josh: What's the downside of taking it all the time?

Tommy: Addiction.

Matt: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you definitely, you definitely do get addicted to it because you start to think like, how could I ever function without this? Because like, it really— you have like such laser focus. But there are a lot of really, uh, negative downsides to taking Adderall in that you lose your appetite, you lose erections. Like, it's not the best.

Tommy: The appetite's one thing, but don't you dare take my erection away from me.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

Matt: Yeah, so I, uh, wean my way off.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You— if you want to relate to TJ, just mention his boner and he's, he's right there.

Tommy: I haven't had one in a while.

Josh: Yeah, what do you mean?

Tommy: I haven't had one today.

Josh: Okay, that's not saying much.

Matt: Is that a while?

Josh: Yeah, is that a while? Yeah, yeah, that is.

Tommy: What are you drinking, uh, Matt?

Matt: Yeah, I'm drinking, uh, Glenfiddich. Is this a 12-year, which goes, uh, pairs really well with a little bit of Hey Tiger?

Josh: Cute little Hey Tiger chocolate. Hey, look at that! Bree's loving this, I'm just saying.

Matt: Hey Bree!

George: Hey Bree!

Matt: What are you eating, Bri?

Josh: Bri is currently eating a chicken Mexican bowl. There you go, Bri's on. Do you want to go on mic? There you go.

Tommy: Thanks for the shout out, Matt. Hey, um, where's Nat? It feels like, um, Matt's gone wild with Nat being away out or something. Where is she?

Matt: Uh, actually, I did ask Natalie to leave the apartment today because I was filming all day, and like, I was filming all throughout the apartment, and I was Like, if it's all these phone calls, she does like 3, 4 phone calls a day, and I'm like, I will have a mental breakdown if I have to like work around your phone calls. And so, uh, I asked her to Karen's house, and then, um, but she just got back and she's, she's got like really bad seasonal allergies right now, or COVID. Uh, she's just like sneezing like crazy.

Tommy: Yeah, wait till all the people, uh, that were dissing you online saying that was the wedding. I told you, hey, I told you, the wedding. No, allergies are horrible. Uh, over the weekend I was sneezing a fuckload and I was like, am I sick? I just— because I don't want to accept that I've got any kind of allergies or anything. Are you allergic to anything, Matt?

Matt: I have, um, a condition. It's like a disease called chronic urticaria and angioedema, which, uh, sounds really fancy and scary. Yeah, it sure does. Um, I say that to make it sound like a really serious condition because like it actually is just chronic So it's chronic hives, meaning, and chronic hives is whenever it lasts more than 3 months. And angioedema is just like swelling. So basically, you know, it's funny, or not funny, but this happened right around the time I started my, I started to, you know, build a popular YouTube channel. And I don't know if it was the stress or what, but like, it was 2018, I started getting randomly, like my lip started swelling up, like my hands would swell up, my wrist would swell up, and I would get hives, like really, itchy hives all over my body.

Josh: Is that how it works? They give you a play button when you hit 100,000 and chronic hives?

Matt: Yeah, and a mental breakdown.

Josh: I mean, it does, it does seem consistent, doesn't it, to the whole YouTube life?

Tommy: Yeah, it sounds about right.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: And so, um, but, but, you know, the fix is actually really easy. I went to a couple, um, you know, allergists and doctors, and they, they all said the same thing, is that just take allergy medicine. And so like, I literally take allergy medicine every day when I wake up, and, uh, if I don't, then I start to itch.

Josh: Uh, Kelvin's mentioning inbox zero. Are you an inbox zero guy, Davelle?

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely am. Are you guys not? Do you guys like just let emails fill up in your inbox?

Tommy: Well, what day you are thinking? Because it depends when. No, sometimes. I mean, that's the— that is the challenge. It's sometimes you're in inbox zero.

Josh: I just have so many different inboxes, so I can get inbox zero on work email, but then not other email.

Tommy: But then I've given up on other emails.

Josh: But GM Jess goes crazy on the folders. I see no point in folders because you've got a search function. Are you a folders guy?

Matt: You know, I do have folders, but I don't go crazy with them. I like having the folders there for some specific things like weddings. So like, you know, when it comes to like planning and managing a wedding, what I do is I just throw it all— wedding? No, for our wedding. For our wedding. Um, but whenever an email comes in that's related to the wedding, I just automatically archive it and put it in the wedding folder until Natalie does it. And then if she doesn't do it, then I go into that folder to figure out what I need to do.

Tommy: I think it's— think about if you have lots on and you've actually got hard work to do. Yeah, that's when the inbox zero thing becomes harder. But when you've got light work, like there's not much, you know, it's easy to archive an email that you don't really care about. Harder to sort of get through.

Matt: Yeah, so like, what's the longest besides, um, you know, emails that you never get back to? Like, yeah, how long do you let some emails go? Like, what's the proper etiquette there? Because like, obviously a I know people have different opinions there, but like, what is the actual etiquette? Like, if you reply too long to an email, is it—

George: Yeah.

Matt: Is it like 3 days? Is 3 days unacceptable?

Josh: Oh, well, no. So, this is the whole thing. What I was going to say is if it's longer than a week, you probably have to say, oh, fuck, it's been in my spam or whatever. But Tommy read the book Lying by Sam Harris. And so, Tommy's trying not to lie anymore.

Tommy: No, it doesn't make it out like I'm a liar. But it's amazing, it's amazing, Matt, when you start to think about those moments in life where you, you, what is lying? It's like a manipulation or a distortion of the reality in someone else, for someone else. And so because you know it is a certain way, there's many times that you could lie, whether it be to a partner whether it be to your work colleagues or a random person. And if you just have the rule, which Sam sort of sets out, is it just quit it, just quit it, kid. But if you stop or you don't have the option to, you will realise how many times you go towards deception. Yeah, not that it's a hard lie of fucking, I own a—

Josh: So Dave, are you a liar?

Tommy: Are you a liar?

George: Yeah.

Matt: No, actually, I read the book as well, and Nat and I both got into a little Like, it's, it's really fun debate because there are a lot of times—

Tommy: Is that why Nat's not there? What's happened, mate? Tell us.

Josh: It's all happened very quickly.

Matt: All good?

Tommy: Everything all right?

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, that's— Why do you think she went to her parents' house?

Tommy: No, but so you're ready yet?

Matt: No, but it's like, yeah, like with the— when, you know, when you lie, you, um, uh, I don't know, it's, it's— I think sometimes it feels like the easy solution when actually just omitting information is the easiest. And so if somebody were to ask you how much money you made you don't have to tell them that it's $1 million. You can tell them, you know, I, you know, like, I don't feel comfortable sharing that information with you. And that is a much easier way to get around it than just lying or making up a number.

Josh: I feel like you're worried that we're going to make this whole episode about how much money you've got again. Yeah.

George: Yeah.

Matt: I said last time, last— after the last podcast, I said, guys, we can't just keep doing podcasts about how successful I am.

Josh: Well, I don't know if you saw the episode with, uh, Jack Pose, which I saw you saw the music bit, but we spoke about his Tesla every 10 seconds.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like it because I like how uncomfortable he gets about it and how he makes it out that it's not a big deal to have a Tesla.

Josh: I mean, he was saying, he's like, guys, it doesn't have autopilot, come on, it's just the standard model.

Matt: I love their bit, uh, like the touch of the common man, and I use that all the time. It's so funny. I mean, you gotta keep up appearance. It's funny, like, you, you gotta keep up appearances by making yourself seem poor.

Josh: JB, you, uh, really are a common man. Um, and, uh, have you got anything in the archives that you could share with us? Uh, yeah, do you want to go into the—

George: Into the archives now? All right, I'm just having a look around. Um, yeah, I found something that is very common man, actually.

Tommy: Okay, Matt Diavella.

George: This is a a really funny story.

Josh: Yes.

George: And sorry if it brings up, you know, old memories, but you want to go out of the cupboard? I'll come out of the cupboard and explain that. Uh, but very common man just looking up a massage parlour and, um, going to it online.

Josh: Go for it. Can you tell us about this, uh, massage?

Matt: Yeah, so all right, the, the other day Nat and I had just gotten back from a little bit of a trip trip, and then I told her like, I want to get a massage. And she's like, oh yeah, I'll find a place for you. And then she found a place. And I want to say, um, I don't want to say the name of the place, but let's just say it was Happy Massage. It wasn't called Happy Massage.

Josh: Smiley Massage.

Matt: Yeah, let's say Happy Massage.

Tommy: Walk out smiling.

Craig: Yeah.

Matt: So then I just, uh, she said that, and then so then I Googled it and I wrote in Happy massage. She said it's really great, highly reviewed, 130 ratings, all like 4.5-star. I'm like, this is perfect. So then I Google it, and then I copy and paste the address into my phone. I see that it's 4 minutes away.

Josh: What sort of massage were you after?

Matt: Uh, handjob. Touch to the common man.

Josh: In more ways than one.

Tommy: That was good. You know what, watching our— these highlights back, um, of how close we have been to people in the past, like physically, physically close, makes me uncomfortable. And I don't really care about personal space.

George: November 2019 in LA, it was probably almost around then.

Tommy: Yeah, well, it was, it was happening. That was the pandemic. It was Corona 19, COVID-19.

George: 2019.

Josh: It is, it is ridiculous. I mean, that LA, that LA trip was so much fun. So much fun. Glad that we got to do it.

Tommy: I got to hang with you, Matt. Yeah, it was lovely.

Matt: Yeah, trip of a lifetime. I'm gonna hold on a second.

Tommy: Sorry, is he playing? Are you gonna play a sniffle or something?

Josh: Solitaire? No, he's actually trying to buy Bitcoin. Yeah, he's just like, look, fucking I was actually looking up massage parlors.

Matt: No, no, I do. Well, I want to do, um, let me, um, I got an Instagram so we can get a couple people coming in.

George: Okay.

Josh: Oh yeah, that's right, because you're like, you don't do anything for under 45 people.

Tommy: Go to a nice shot.

Josh: Oh yeah, there we go.

Matt: Yeah, hold on, I gotta do that again. Who wants to be in the shot?

Josh: Okay, yeah, yeah, let me put it— oh yeah, sorry, I fucked it. There you go, there's a two-shot if you want it.

Matt: Oh, there you go, let's go.

Tommy: Waving, there you go, two-finger wave.

Josh: Uh, two-finger— why are we doing two things? I don't know, I've never done a two-finger wave.

Matt: And then this one, I gotta get the link.

George: Two-finger wave.

Matt: Can you text me the streaming link?

Josh: Uh, yeah, sure. Yeah, I can do that.

Tommy: That's it, youtube.com.

Matt: If you're not doing too much already No, no, that's fine.

Josh: I can do that. I'm just gonna bid on—

Tommy: I just actually haven't, uh, what's for dinner, man? Let's do some dinner.

Matt: Um, chocolate? No, uh, I think we're gonna get Chinese because Nat's not feeling so well, so I think we're gonna do some hot and sour soup. Is that weird to get delivered hot and sour soup?

Josh: No, no, you should see what we've had delivered today, Matthew. A lot of stuff.

Tommy: Wow, man.

Matt: Did you guys start the day with wine?

Josh: Did I see, uh, there was a Prosecco open, but we didn't We popped it, but we drank it later. Yeah.

Tommy: Might get stuck. I might get fired up.

George: Yeah. Get fired up.

Josh: What do you think of food, like the produce that you get in Australia versus the US? Is it basically the same? Like, you eating the same shit?

Matt: Well, it's interesting because I think that organic is a little bit more difficult to find here, but it's not hard to find locally grown produce, which I think is, you know, I don't know, what are the standards here? It's like pretty— I imagine it's pretty good. You guys are like pretty conservative.

Tommy: It is, but it's like how they wrap it up over in the States. Like, think about Whole Foods and how it makes you think when you walk in. Yeah, I feel like we— there's great— like, if you— I found when I travelled Europe, I was like, mate, I'm just eating fucking salt. Like, I feel like I can't get something that's just sort of, you know, just a bit of avocado and toast or something just a bit more plain. And less intense. But America, I feel like, does the healthy— what do you call it? Like, they've— not virtue, they, um, the optics of a lot of the smoothies and stuff.

Josh: Yeah, all that. Yeah, a lot of smoothies, juice bar. What is the, um— I went to a place, uh, in LA. What was it called, Breezy? The one that, like, we— so we asked a hotel, like, uh, person, like, person at the front of the hotel, like, hey, we're looking for a, um, Just something light to eat. What was that place?

Tommy: They sent you to a rub and tug.

Josh: Oh, I don't know.

Matt: What do you call it? It's like the grits.

Josh: The griddle.

Tommy: The griddle.

Matt: The griddle on Sunset Boulevard.

Josh: On Sunset Boulevard. And it was like the most full-on—

Craig: They were huge.

Josh: Experience.

Matt: Like 10.

Josh: Yeah. Pancakes sort of.

George: For one person. Yeah.

Craig: The griddle. Yeah.

Tommy: Is it everything from the griddle or it's just the name of it?

Josh: Yeah, I think it's famous. I saw a guy that was on Joe Rogan that was wearing a t-shirt like it was— The griddle. Have you heard of this place before, D'Vella?

Matt: I've actually never heard of The Grid or— The Grid?

Josh: Yeah, no.

Matt: What's that?

Tommy: All the restaurants that have closed. Yeah, all the restaurants that have closed down in LA, like a crazy stat of something. Sam Harris can't lie. Can't say it. I was going to say 70%, but I think my friend said that and I was like, I don't trust that really.

Matt: But do you want some reverb? 70% feels too high.

Josh: TJ, do you want some reverb?

Tommy: No, I'm typing it in. Oh, when I come back with the answer, I'll give it to you, give it to you in reverb.

Josh: Yeah, I worked out how to get the reverb going.

Matt: I would guess 40%. No, 30%. Okay, most businesses fail anyway though, don't they?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, it's about time.

Josh: Yeah, I'm sure that's why I'm not a politician.

Matt: Imagine if a politician said that. Well, most businesses fail anyway, so it's really not that bad of a year.

Josh: You're right. I mean, did you, did you have any feedback or anything that stood out to you with the video that we made when you were in Melbourne?

Matt: I just, I think that video particularly, like, I just saw a lot of people that, like, this is the topic that I don't really talk about that much, that kind of like pursuing your dreams and creativity and all that stuff. I mean, one, that was like the most fun I've had making a video in a really long time. I don't think I've put together a blooper reel for that yet, but I have to because, Josh, we tried that one take with you about 20 times.

Josh: I'm such a poor actor.

Tommy: Where—

Matt: yeah, it's funny because I've been watching The Office a lot. And so like, that's kind of the vibe we were going for where like you were like, you know, kind of making eye contact with the camera, but you kept doing it. Yeah, uncomfortable. Yeah, but, um, the response was overwhelming.

Josh: Overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly skinny.

Tommy: Yeah, that's it.

Josh: Tommy's really tight, but I've got the reverb for you.

Tommy: Do you want to— I didn't find the stat. Okay, I reckon, um, definitely someone's burying it.

Josh: Is there anything, um, so, uh, Dear Val, when I worked out that I could do reverb quite easily. It has become this thing that we use a fair bit. Has there been anything— sorry about that— has there been anything from a technology perspective that you've overused from a craft perspective just because it was shiny and new and you're like, I've got to use this in every shot, or I've got to, you know I want— just want to use it.

Matt: I don't know, I, I think the, you know, I think I learned very early on that I wasn't very, uh, good at like special effects and graphics. And so like, and I think that's the one mistake most people make early on where they just keep trying to add and add and add to things. And I was like, okay, a straight cut looks good, so I will use that. Uh, but the only transition I actually do use is like the wipe, which is like when the wipe and like a little whip to kind of do a flashback or a cut to a sketch. And so I definitely overuse that more than anything else, where if I'm in the middle of a video and I'm cutting to a sketch, it'll almost always start. And I think I got that from 30 Rock. 30 Rock, yeah, all the time, where it'd be like the push and the whip and then, uh, you cut to the sketch. And it's just a fun way to enter a sketch.

Tommy: You're a Ken Burns guy? You like the, the Ken Burns effect?

Matt: Yeah, let's get into it. Let's get into the details. No, I did, um, everybody like learns about Ken Burns like in high school and stuff when you're in like video class. And I remember doing a couple projects like based upon the Ken Burns effect. And it's funny how like I feel like our teachers are always so blown away by just the innovation of the slow push-in on a photo. And like technology has gone, it's come so much further. But they're still like caught up on the slow push-in.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. It's crazy how you can make a photo look like video. It absolutely brings it to life.

Josh: What are you excited about at the moment? Like, what are you thinking about? What are you geeking about?

Matt: This new camera. I do like this new camera.

Josh: It is a good camera.

Tommy: Can I just give you, you know, from one sort of average filmmaker to another— No, I mean a great— to a great filmmaker. Uh, if you're shooting XAVC in 10-bit, uh, you've already told him. Yeah, I mentioned it.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, but just about the buffering issue, just like be careful of, uh, yeah, making sure that it doesn't just turn off because that happened in TJ. Um, I think the—

Tommy: I can finish it, what I was gonna say, if you want.

George: Go for it.

Josh: Um, it just seemed like you were panicking.

Tommy: No, no, I was having fun. So XAVC 10-bit If you're shooting 4K, be careful, Matt, because it will turn off on you. If you can't man the camera, don't fucking film.

Matt: I actually just started— I have a lot of like— because like I'm shooting this course and I actually hired a couple editors now to like— because like we're like launching it in like, like a couple of weeks and I have no time. And I was like, I need to like hire a couple of editors to help me do this. And so I just decided to actually shoot the rest of it. Oh, hey Nat. I said hi. I didn't know I was gonna be shot.

George: Oh no.

Josh: Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry.

Matt: She said, I didn't know I was gonna be in the shot.

Josh: Uh, yeah, go ahead.

Matt: No, escaping. Uh, I was gonna say that, uh, oh yeah, I actually just decided. Yeah, I just decided to just shoot the rest of the course in 1080p. Because I'm like, it's in 10-bit, it looks amazing. And most people, I don't know, they get so caught up on 4K, but when I'm looking at the footage, it looks great. Nobody's going to know the difference of whether it's 4K or 1080p.

Josh: And we will deliver in 720.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, right. But it's just like the, the, the speed at which I can just even dump a card and transfer footage and then upload that footage. I can shoot for an hour and it's like 20 gigabytes, and I can upload that to Google Drive. When if it's 4K, it's like 100 to 200 gigabytes, and you just— yeah, it's just impossible.

Josh: I mean, we were talking, we were talking a bunch about exposing— this is very sort of inside baseball filmmaker, but I guess there's— we have it, we have a few filmmakers.

Tommy: It requires reverb.

Josh: Um, C-Log, uh, like exposing all of that sort of stuff, whether you overexpose it, underexpose it, what should you set your ISO at? What's your latest thinking? Like, what, uh, how are you exposing things, and what do you think when it comes to ISO on the C70? The Gronks want to know. Oh, that's—

Matt: yeah, that's a really good point because, um, well, the ISO thing, there's something called native ISO, and ISO is like the gain on the camera. Nobody's gonna know what it means. If you know what it means, you know what it means. I'm not going to be able to describe it.

Josh: Um, but anyway, like, it's like the film— like, if you think about it, it's like back in the day there was like film sensitivity. Remember, you would get like daylight film or stuff that's more sensitive that you could have sort of in darker situations. ISO is just how sensitive it is to light. That makes sense.

Matt: Yeah. And so you can dial the ISO. It's almost like a digital way to increase the amount of light that comes in the camera. And so then the higher up you go, the more grainy it gets. But they're— but like, so like, so then you might think, oh, keep the ISO as low as possible. But then there's something called native ISO, which is like how the cameras are designed to really work. And native ISO is different for each camera. And so we were kind of like just talking about, and I was reaching out to filmmakers about whether that's important or not, because I haven't used native ISO for a long time. And like my one filmmaker friend responded and said, it was kind of, it's more of the, I guess like something with the highlights. It's like it gives you more smoother highlights and like it obviously does give you a wider dynamic range, like meaning like I'm not even going to— I'm not going to describe.

Tommy: This is a free course.

Josh: This is great.

Tommy: We're actually going to package this up and sell it.

Matt: This is what, by the way, this is what my course is actually going to be like. It's just going to be me trying to explain things and then be like, ah, no, forget it. I can't even do it.

Tommy: Yeah, Google it.

Josh: What have you learned through doing all the core stuff? Is it a different beast? To what you used to?

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one, I found that talk to your audience first to find out what they're actually struggling with, because I actually made this whole course on how to build and grow a YouTube channel. And I was kind of like, you know, I was coming to that building that one, I had 10 years of filmmaking experience and then 3, 4 years of making my own YouTube channel and then So then I'm like coming from it with the burden of having been through all this experience. And I don't really know what somebody who's really just getting started doesn't know anything about cameras, anything about starting a YouTube channel. You have to really put yourself in that person's shoes. And so we did a bunch of research and like talk with people who were interested in buying a course on building a YouTube channel and really got to the core that like a large part of the course should be teaching people the basics of filmmaking. And that's like, it's a difficult thing to do and kind of like talk about like intentionality and minimalism. Like you have to figure out, there's a burden of teaching people too much and going into every manual setting and showing them every single way that it works because then they get overwhelmed by it. And so to a degree, you almost want to be really simple and say, okay, if you're just getting started out, use AV mode or use auto mode. And then once you're ready, you can, you know, move along to manual mode, but it's going to so many people are going to stop because it's going to be too overwhelming. And so that, that's been one thing that I've learned about just like, uh, just the content itself and figuring out how I can actually best serve the actual customer who wants to buy the course.

Josh: Well, I heard a stat where it's like the majority of people who start online courses will never finish them, like from a student perspective. Have you got data on like slow growth? Like, have you learned anything about like drop-off rates or why people leave courses or how many people complete them?

Matt: Yeah, I'd, uh, I'd have to ask my brother Mark who does all like the analytics on that. Um, I know that, I mean, one, we have one course out and I'm sure that we have the actual data on that. I know that there's like stuff that we want to change about the course to hopefully help engage people even longer. I think the fact that like The videos that I make for Slow Growth are more cinematic that are kind of designed similar to my YouTube videos. I hope that actually engages people longer. It's hard for me to know, cause it's like, I don't know what the baseline to compare it to. But yeah, I think that like, it's true. I think most people though, most people actually buy a course and then they never even take the first lesson.

George: Yeah. Wow.

Matt: And I think that's probably the biggest problem is cause like, and you know, I've actually done that before. I don't know if you guys have, but like, I buy a course and then I'm like, all right, I'm gonna get to this tomorrow, and then you just get so freaking busy.

George: Yeah.

Tommy: What have you— have you done, Josh? Um, of course. I just— if, if I was to part with money for a course, I'd be— so I've done a course and not finished it. Well, there's definitely finished the book work and stuff that was like a bunch of in-person school. Yeah, no, no, no, another one, another one after school. But no, no, I, I didn't finish it, but I was like I still got worth out of it. And so, if someone does do a few or engages or sets an intention once they've paid, like, there is a way of it working. But you do want someone to finish it.

Josh: Well, it's like the all-you-can-eat sort of course platforms where I guess like the likelihood— It's— I'm trying to think of, I don't know if it's Skillshare or Udemy. I think it's Skillshare. Like, I— It's so easy to not finish stuff when you pay one monthly fee and you get everything. It's like, it's so easy just to like get in on something and then be like, oh, like, I just don't have time for this.

Matt: Yeah, I think that's the weird thing to me, too, is the fact that we pay for all these memberships. Josh, I know that happened to you, too, where you realise like, oh my God, I'm paying for like 15, 20 memberships. And I think, you know, that even happens with something like Patreon. And, you know, I get guilty and I feel guilty where I'm like, there's people that are paying for my Patreon membership who have not, you know, who have not never watched a video or who'd like maybe even forgot that it existed. And so I think like I feel bad about that, but then I also— Patreon is kind of unique in that it's people who are trying to contribute to your work and yeah, I found value in what you do and so they want to actually give back. And so it's a little bit different, but, uh, I do think like, yeah, any kind of membership, you know, there's always going to be— I think that's what most memberships count on, like like it starts with like gym memberships all the way down to like Audible and all these other platforms where you sign up for it and then you forget about it, and then 3 years later you're like, am I still paying for that?

Josh: I feel like the, um, that's with the, the golf, because I've got a membership at a golf course now. I'm just determined for that not to be the thing, another, another membership.

Tommy: Yeah. How do you— what is the difference in making something work and making it not be like the other ones.

Josh: What do you think?

Tommy: Yes, Craig Hart is 3 minutes away.

Craig: Oh wow, you're right.

Matt: Yeah, um, I was gonna say that what happened—

Tommy: oh, if I come to Melbourne, uh, Melbourne, uh, I loved how you said Melbourne.

Josh: Yeah, that's good.

Matt: Yeah, I don't know how to say it. I'm honestly like lost now because like, like we say it Melbourne. Melbourne. So if I come down there, can we go golfing? Like an actual course?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, George, George, this is, this is, this is huge. This is great.

Tommy: Not only that, but we will take you to your favourite massage parlor.

Josh: Yeah, I will. No, you know what? I'll personally give you a handjob.

Matt: Okay. Winner gets a handjob.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not the only, um, hole-in-one you'll get if you, if you come down, if you know what I mean.

Matt: Uh, I thought like 4th place gives a— 4th place gives a handjob to 3rd place, 3rd place to 2nd place, 2nd to 1st.

Josh: Yeah, it's sort of like— are you— yeah, are you cool with that, JB?

George: Glove on or off?

Josh: Glove on or off? Very good. I mean, the, the calloused hands that I have, the blisters.

Tommy: That'd be a left-handed handjob then, because you need to— you have your glove on your left.

Josh: We can work out the details. Let's have some respect.

Matt: This is ruining my brand. I'm gonna take down— I gotta take that Instagram post down.

Tommy: Take down the two videos you made with us too, mate. They're more brands.

Josh: Yeah, it's gonna ruin you. Um, no, but I would very much love it if you, um, play golf.

Matt: Uh, and yeah, it's a really supportive environment and Yeah, I think that that actually would be a lot of fun. I think I get intimidated when I play golf with people who are like really competitive and I just know that you guys aren't athletic.

Tommy: Look, we're not about winning in this business.

Josh: Yeah, if you've learned anything.

Craig: Yeah, we're a couple of losers.

Josh: We're the ugly mates that make you feel good in all your photos. But we're happy to be, you know what? The best ugly, the best ugly mate is the one that will, you know, stand next to you and fucking smile and get that photo.

Tommy: Um, Georgie boy, I'm gonna, uh, if you want to grab the mic, go downstairs and prep, uh, the garage. I'm gonna open it up in a moment.

Josh: This is great.

Tommy: Craig Harper's gonna roll in.

Josh: Okay, perfect.

Tommy: Matt can hang on and watch if you want.

Josh: Otherwise, if you want to go and eat your Chinese soup, um, Craig Harper is, uh an exercise scientist, so he knows all things, and is currently studying motivation, so he knows a thing or two when it comes to, uh, to fitness. And, uh, it will be very helpful.

Matt: We should tell him about, uh, Cameron here.

Josh: Yeah, I think he will love the ISO chat. Um, uh, so, uh, D'Vella, have you— are you speaking to people about— like, how long are you going to be in Australia for? Do you know yet, or are you going to You still undecided?

Matt: Yeah, did I? Yeah, did I? I told you, didn't I?

Josh: Uh, yeah, yeah, we're still on it. We're still on it. Are you, are you, um, yeah, what's the latest?

Matt: I don't know if I actually— yeah, I didn't make it public. I mean, I told my family and friends and that's the only thing that matters. But the fact that, uh, yeah, we're sticking around, uh, Sydney until September and then we're gonna be heading back to the States. So yeah, that is if we're allowed to leave. We have to get an exemption to leave here.

Josh: Oh really?

Tommy: What's happening in the garage, JJ?

Josh: Okay, I'm gonna have a look at the garage. Here we go.

George: Okay guys, Craig's just arrived.

Tommy: G'day Craig Harper, welcome to the building.

Craig: Hello boys and girls.

Josh: Hello.

Craig: Oh look, there I am. Bloody hell, this is quite the welcome, isn't it, on a Friday night? You must be special.

Josh: We've got Matt Diavella watching as well.

Craig: Well, not the Matt Diavella.

Josh: Yes, yes.

Craig: Hey man, what's up?

Matt: How's it going, Alice?

Craig: Is that your best Aussie?

Tommy: All right, Craig, what we need you to do is putt for a cup. How's your golfing skills?

Craig: Um, shit house, but we'll see how we go.

Josh: Okay, here we go. All right, uh, JB, get your other camera ready.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, all right, all right, here we go, here we go. Craig Harper on the putt.

George: 3 goes.

Josh: Okay, all right, I'm gonna grab the reverb on.

Tommy: Here we go.

Craig: Exercise physiologist, remember?

Matt: Yes.

Tommy: Here we go, here we go. This is it.

Josh: Oh, it's all in the psychology.

Craig: Okay, you get 3.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just, just calm down. Come Oh, it's a very hard carpet to read, which you hear a lot in the Masters. Okay, here we go.

Craig: Has anyone got it, by the way?

Josh: Yeah, everyone.

Tommy: You're putting until you get it, Craig.

George: That looks good, that looks good.

Josh: He's going in! Well done!

Craig: Thanks, boys. Yeah, uh, no sugar drinks, it's no better. Yeah, we've got, uh, I bet Matt Diavella is just bloody riveted with this bloody high-level entertainment.

Josh: You loving it, Dave?

Matt: I mean, yeah, I, I am impressed. I wish I was there.

Josh: It would be lovely. It would be lovely.

Craig: Dude, you're missing out. This is what happened to us in the pandemic. We went somewhat senile prematurely.

Tommy: All right, come up top floor, Craig.

Josh: Craig is joining us.

Craig: Welcome.

Josh: All right, here we, here we go, JB. We've got the camera on. You're right, JB.

Matt: How many guests have you guys had so far?

Tommy: We've had, uh, this is the 9th, I think, and we're going for 10.

Josh: Yeah, we've got Ryan Shelton after this. There we go, Craig Harper. Welcome, welcome, come on in.

Tommy: This is coming to the hot seat, mate.

Josh: You're over here.

Matt: Hi, how you going?

Tommy: Come in, mate. Welcome.

Josh: Oh, hi. G'day, mate. Come on in, come on in.

Craig: Hello to all 7 viewers.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Laugh too hard at that.

Matt: And those are all from my Instagram account.

Josh: All from his Instagram account. D'Vella said put your headphones on, please. You put your headphones on, Harps.

Craig: I should put up something, um I'm live right now on Insta.

Josh: No, no, no, no, this is good.

Tommy: All right, mate, hang on, come in.

Josh: All right, there we go. How are you? You happy with how you look?

Craig: Terrible. Can we put a filter on me or something?

Josh: No, no, you look, you look great. I should have put a bloody Hessian bag for the viewers.

Tommy: Thanks for coming on the show, Craig.

Josh: Can we— we also have Diavela still here as well, and so you can banter out a little bit.

Tommy: We're actually finishing early and Diavela and Craig are taking over, so over to you guys.

Craig: He's got way too much talent.

Josh: And he's—

Craig: yeah, we could, we could do something. We could do something.

Josh: Um, Harps, how's the, uh, uni, uni life going?

Craig: Um, well, it's— that's what everyone needs, a PhD update. Look, it's okay. I just got what's called ethics approval, which means I can run all my studies like a grown-up. So can you turn up my headphones a tiny bit?

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: Yeah, I can do it from over here.

Josh: Perfect.

Craig: Um, so I'm about to run my first study and I'm— yeah, it's good, it's interesting. That's perfect, Tommy, thank you. It's— yeah, so it's just like when you're doing a PhD, especially in neuroscience or neuropsych like me, you, you run studies and your job is to bring new science into the world. So you're not doing something that's been done, you're, you're either creating something brand new or you're expanding on something that's been done. So Yeah, that's what I'm doing, and it's, it's about to— so I'm about to do a study with 400 real humans, and, um, yeah, we'll see how that goes.

Tommy: What kind of, what kind of a study are you doing to them?

Craig: So we're, so we're putting them through the, the scale that I developed, which is to evaluate external self-awareness, you know, the You Experience, of which you've heard me talk for years. And now we're turning it into an actual scientifically validated test. So in order to validate a scale, it needs to be used in conjunction with other scales in the research to see how it correlates. So bottom line is we're, we're establishing whether or not it measures the thing that I think it measures accurately and predictably and reliably. So that's what I'm doing. And, um, yeah, it's— I mean, the thing with the PhD is you— everything has to be perfect. You know, like you submit your ethics application, which is, this is what I'm doing, this is how I'm doing my research, and it's pages and pages and pages and pages and pages. And then they always send it back and go, nah, change this, change that, fix that, how are you doing that? Then you send it back again, then they send it back. You know, so it's this ongoing process, and it has to be because of the nature of, you know, research and published science in academic journals. It has to be flawless. Because also then the, the, you know, I'm one of the authors, like I'm driving the research because I'm the student, but you have supervisors who co-author the paper with you. They don't really do much other than just guide you. They're amazing, but you do all the work. But then your work is the basically the, the property of the university. So Monash University, so they're not going to go— if I do something groundbreaking, they're not going to go Craig Harper did this. They're going to go researchers out of Monash University have discovered, and I'll just a bloke. Yeah, and this is one of the blokes. Yeah, but that's good. That's, that's what it is. And, you know, it's great. It's, you know, the thing about doing something that is, you know, unfamiliar to you and new and different, and I mean a total departure from what you normally do and the environment that you normally do it in, is that you grow and you develop new skills and awareness and understanding and insight and You know, I'm in my 50s and I'm using my brain in a new way and you're developing cognitive skills and study skills and memory skills and explorative skills that you didn't have or you didn't have in that kind of capacity. You know, that's so, it's for me, it's fun.

Tommy: We're just talking about the rate of people not completing courses.

Craig: Yeah.

Tommy: That you buy online.

Craig: Oh, I would imagine it'd be, have you got a number? Matt?

Josh: Well, yeah, do I have a number?

Tommy: It was very low.

Josh: Yeah, I don't think that many people—

Matt: Yeah, I think it was 70% of all businesses fail.

Tommy: Oh, they fail.

Josh: But even like course-wise, yeah, I think that most, I think most people aren't finishing it. In regard from a, from a motivation perspective, that's sort of been where things have lent for you. Is that still where you're focusing on, like people's motivation?

Craig: Um, no, it's more, it's more broadly human behaviour and psychology. So, so motivation is a a small component. But why we think the way we do— metacognition, thinking about thinking— why we think the way we do, why we behave the way we do, why we tell ourselves the storeys that we tell ourselves, how we create our own experiences unknowingly, how we drag our— all of us, we drag our programming and our conditioning and our training from childhood into adulthood without necessarily being aware of it, you know. So if you think about all of your beliefs, how many of those did you choose? Hardly any. They just kind of grew on you as a byproduct of where you were and who you were with, you know. So if you grow up in a Catholic family that eats meat and barracks for Carlton, there's a fair chance you're gonna barrack for Carlton, eat meat, and be a Catholic.

Josh: We've just had someone knock at the door.

Tommy: There's a bike rider.

Josh: Someone form of Uber Eats. JB, can you be on that? Can I also say, from a bicep perspective, we've got some of the biggest biceps in the whole Gronk Squad community here between Diavella and Harps. Some of the best.

Craig: Wow, he's a good-looking bastard though, isn't he? Look at him, he looks so youthful.

Matt: Yeah, but I did wear it.

Craig: Sorry, Matt, go.

Matt: No, it's all right. Yeah, somebody messaged me the other day because like it's been like an ongoing joke amongst my audience, uh, about my biceps. Like Everybody talks about them for some reason. And somebody messaged me on Twitter the other day and he's like, Matt, I'm going to be honest, I really don't see it. Like, I get it. Like, your biceps are decent, but like, let's be real. There are people with way bigger biceps than yours online. And I have to agree with him. I really don't understand where it comes from. I think it's just like it's just out of place.

Josh: Maybe.

Craig: Well, I think it's because you wear your little brother's t-shirts constantly. I think I'm just—

Matt: I'm taking it I mean, that's half the battle.

Craig: That's it.

Josh: Well, I feel the, the funny thing, uh, about you, Harps, is I think that you are like an OG minimalist. Like, I think that if you think about minimalism and Diavolo's obviously, you know, directed the minimalist films.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, is that being something conscious that you've tried to do in life, or has that just happened?

Craig: That's a really interesting question. I But not consciously, but I just, you know, you go through phases where you buy stuff and you think you want stuff, then you get the stuff and then you go, I don't want this. You go, geez, I need one of them, and you get it to go, no, that's not it, you know. And I think I went through that with cars and motorbikes and stuff, right? And, you know, like now I literally drive a $20,000 Suzuki. I wear this, not the same, but the same, you know, pairs of shorts every day. I wear a black t-shirt, I wear thongs or sneakers. I got dressed up tonight, sneakers. And, um, You know, like, I don't— they're not things that preoccupy me too much. And for me, like, simple is better. I don't want to get up and stand in front of racks of clothes and think for 20 minutes about what I'm going to wear. I don't, you know, most of my life I've shaved my head.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Like, you know, I'm not too worried about being glamorous.

Josh: And self-experimentation. Diavella, you did a bunch of the 30-day challenges. What did you end up doing? How many different 30-day challenges? Did you do?

Matt: I did them for a year and it's, um, it, they were really fun. I really enjoyed them and I like, I really enjoyed actually like filming them cuz they were kind of like mini documentaries in and of themselves. But that it does get exhausting to continue to do 30-day experiments every single month trying a new thing. Uh, and so I, I did scale back, but like some of my favourites were just doing cold showers for 30 days. That was one of the first ones and it's just so simple. Um, but I think just like the element of pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and doing something that makes you uncomfortable every day, uh, was one that really stands out. But, um, yeah, no, I definitely learned a lot from him.

Tommy: Have you done— are you a guy that does something like that? You— are you going for— I know you went to one— no, you were eating lunch.

Craig: I ate 2 meals.

Tommy: Yeah, so you've dropped one. That's a conscious thing, I guess.

Craig: I have one. I'm sorry, I've had breakfast today. I'll have dinner after this, but You know what's interesting is that, that different things work for different people. So, and, and so we try to find this panacea or this recipe for, or, you know, what's the best way to eat, what's the best way to sleep, how many hours do we need, how much water should we drink each day, what's the best training regime, how do you get flexible, like, do I do yoga, do I do Pilates, do I just do stretching at home? And the truth is that different things work for different people. You know, so biological variability means that you can eat one thing that I can't eat, you know, because I don't produce as much lactase as you, which is the enzyme that breaks down lactose. So you drink milk, you're good. I drink milk and I'm like, for 3 hours, you know, like I've got a furball. So, um, and, and some people do, um, you know, certain kinds of training and their body responds beautifully, and other people, they get injured. You know, so what happened when COVID happened, because I kept just doing what I was doing, which was my normal 3 healthy meals a day, and I had to cut back— why cut back necessarily on movement? Because I was homebound. I trained at home because I couldn't go to a gym, and I put on 4 kilos, which, as you boys know, is fucking outrageous for me. I'm like, oh my God. And I just went, shit, I'm getting fat. Not fat, but for me, fat. And so I went, I'm gonna skip lunch for a week, and that'll be cool. And I skipped lunch for a week. And the first day I got to about 2— I wasn't hungry anyway. I got to about 2 o'clock and I went, I felt good. And then I got to about 3, I felt really good. And my brain was working better than normal days. I'm like, hang on, what's going on? And I was getting a little bit of mid-afternoon cerebral fog, you know, a little bit of fatigue.

Tommy: Dangerous working from home because you can just nap.

Craig: But, but also, you know, and what I found out was when I don't eat lunch I don't get that tiredness post-lunch. So my brain, especially right now, my brain needs to be really good for at least the next few years, you know, with work and study. And, you know, like you guys, I do 6 or 7 shows a week now, which is ridiculous. And trying to do everything well. So you need optimal sleep, optimal nutrition, and an optimal lifestyle to fuel all of that.

Josh: On the optimal sleep thing, uh, D.Vella did 30 days of 5 AM wake-ups, which I think was probably the one that you hated the most. Would that be, be a fair assumption?

Matt: Yeah, and I think actually, you know, to Craig's point about not everything works for everybody, you see all these videos on YouTube and online of people talking about how waking up at 5 AM changed their life. And so I tried to go with a really strict regimen of of every single day 5 AM. And there was also, I had travel days, there was daylight savings time. And so it was, well, and when you're sleep deprived, I think being sleep deprived has been probably the periods of my life when I'm most miserable, just because everything is working against you. And yeah, so I would say 5 AM, I thought it was going to change my life and make me insanely productive, but it ended up having the exact opposite effect.

Tommy: Yeah, what's your number?

Josh: Wake-up time?

Tommy: Yeah, no, hours.

Josh: Hours.

Matt: Yeah, I would say it varies. And so like, if I'm really busy, uh, I can— I'll certainly do some 7-hour sleep days. That's definitely like the minimum that I'll have. Most of the time it's around 8. Usually, you know, I'll— I try to actually get around 8.5 to 9 hours in bed because it takes a while for me to fall asleep. And so it's usually like 30 or so minutes of me like tossing in bed before I fall asleep.

Craig: And the other interesting thing about this, that's, that's interesting, Matt, is that we think, um, not only do we need a different amount of sleep or a different number of calories from person to person, or micros or macros or whatever, hydration, you know, but the same person needs different amounts of everything day to day depending on what we do. So Matt might be great one day with 7 hours of sleep depending on what he's done, or one night leading up to that where he didn't expend much energy, it was a reasonably cruisy day. On another day, he might flog himself, he might work hard, he might expend a million calories, take 30,000 steps, do 3 workouts, and that night he needs 9 hours of sleep just to break even, just to restore. So it depends on the impact that, you know, what we do through the day has on all of our biological systems, you know, so your nervous system, your endocrine system, cardiovascular, respiratory, as to what You know, there's no arbitrary number, and this is one of the dumb things that kind of pervades community thinking, is that there's a number. What's the number? There is no fucking number. It varies person to person and for the same person.

Josh: Is there a way of determining, say, a metric or something in real time? Like, I guess there's just knowing your body, your physical state, knowing your numbers.

Craig: Yeah, well, the The best feedback in the world is your body. It's called biofeedback. Like, your body is constantly telling you stuff. And but we've become, because we're so technologically obsessed and focused, we pay more attention to some number between our toes than what our body is actually saying. You know, your body is a constant source of information. And you know, so if you go and have a wee and it looks like Fanta, you're dehydrated. You need to drink more water. If you haven't had a poo since February, eat a fucking apple. You know, like if you're gaining body fat, you're eating too many calories, you know. So like, these are not massively, um, complicated concepts, you know. There are lots of variables around it, but really, if you pay— I always say to people, take your clothes off, stand in front of the mirror, and, you know, it's not about self-loathing, it's about awareness. Like, what do you look like?

Matt: What do you look—

Craig: what's your posture like? What's your pelvis like? How far forward from your shoulders does your head sit? You know, how much body fat are you carrying? And again, this is not about vanity or ego. It's just about looking after yourself.

Tommy: And what gets in the way, do you think, of our ability to listen to our body, the feedback system?

Craig: Um, all the shit that gives us instant gratification, like fat and sugar and salt. You know, the thing is that if you've got to lose 30 kilos, for example, um, just as a, you know, as an example, you— that's going to take a while, and that's not going to be fun, quick, easy, or painless, as you've heard me say many times. But the problem is, like, I can eat, I can eat two of these cakes that is cheap as they look good. I can reach forward and eat two of those cakes in two minutes and I'm gonna get instant satisfaction. Yeah, I'm gonna get, you know, instant gratification. But if I avoid those two cakes, I don't get instant weight loss, right? So one of the biggest challenges for us per se is our ability to just not do stuff that in the moment will give us that dopamine spike. Because that, that's the other really interesting thing about doing shit that we know that we shouldn't do, like have that 25th beer or sit on the couch when we should go for a walk or eat the cakes that we don't need while we're already overweight and hating ourselves. The thing is that it's, you know, it— these things create a a chemical response in the brain that make us feel awesome, you know. So if you are addicted to cigarettes or to beer or to cocaine or to chocolate mud cake, there's going to be a similar biochemical response in the brain in that it's going to make you feel good and it's going to take you out of pain or out of that, that space mentally and physiologically that you don't want to be in. Very shortly we become addicted to the chemical reaction. That's what we're addicted to. It's not the cake, it's what the cake will make you feel.

Tommy: Yeah, fuck, it's powerful, isn't it?

Craig: Yeah, it's a gateway. It's, it's a fucking gateway.

Josh: Yeah, go.

Matt: I got a question for Craig.

Craig: Yeah, sure.

Matt: Um, so, uh, you know, with as difficult as it sounds, uh, life is right now, you know, with the PhD and everything, how do you in times like this make sure that you don't burn out and that you don't like exhaust all your energy? By the way, I have to go after this question. But yeah, I'm really curious because like I'm in a similar— I mean, I've been in similar positions before, but it's very easy, especially when you're working towards a deadline, to kind of, you know, indulge more in the sweets and then just kind of get into this negative cycle of feeling like shit and then eventually burning out from working too much. And so, uh, with as busy as you are, how do you make sure that you don't burn out?

Craig: That's a good question. I mean, I think life is— on an individual level, life is largely about self-management. My ability to be able to manage me— decisions, behaviors, actions, reactions, you know, psychology, physiology, sociology, emotions. Um, and so I just— I've figured out, you know, Matt, over time what works for me. And I, because I'm an addict, as in I'm quite obsessive. And if I like these beautiful cakes in front of me, if I eat one of the cakes, I'll eat all of the cakes because I'm just a fucking frustrated fat kid. I'm just that. I'm still that fat kid that wants to eat those cakes. And I wish I didn't see them because now I'm a little bit distracted. But the answer to your question, Matt, is one, having a really good system or a personal blueprint that you know works for you. But then day to day being conscious and aware. And, and so there needs to be a level of flexibility in the way that I apply that kind of blueprint of mine. And sometimes, you know, sometimes I will— I don't often, but sometimes it'll be a training day and my body will tell me not to train. I'm not being lazy, I'm just actually paying attention. So I would rather go to the gym than not, but I'll just stay at home.

Josh: Great answer. And Dave Vella, thanks so much for joining us today.

Matt: Guys, congrats on 1,000.

Josh: Thanks so much, mate.

Tommy: Thanks, buddy.

Craig: Hey, mate, just quickly before you go, can you come on my show and I'll have more than 7 listeners for you?

Matt: I would love to.

Craig: Well, we'll hook it up. Thank you, brother.

Josh: Take care. Thanks, have a good one, mate.

Matt: All right, guys, catch up.

Tommy: Take it easy. So, George, uh, take a leaf out of Harp's book. Look at how to ask for something. You want Ryan Shelton at your wedding?

Josh: Yeah, just ask. But to be clear, uh, there is no wedding.

Tommy: He's not engaged.

Josh: So it's all very— do you want a harp at your wedding?

Craig: I'll do security, mate. I'll just say, fuck off. I'll just pull it outside the front door.

Josh: Have you— have you did security back in the day?

Craig: I did security for years, getting punched in the face for not many dollars. It was terrific.

Josh: What sort of venues?

Craig: Oh, lots of beautiful venues around Melbourne. I may or may not have been working under my real name. Oh well, the Matthew Flinders on Warrigal Road, Prince Mark in Doveton, Area Nightclub in Croydon.

Tommy: This is back in the day where they're probably more rough out there.

Craig: I grew up in the middle of the hills, the middle Oh, they were wild. The middle in Fern Tree Gully. First night I worked, first night I did security in Melbourne. I did in Perth for a little while. I got headbutted, uh, and my nose broken in the first 90 minutes of the first night. On the first night. And I had an $80 white shirt that I saved up for. I didn't give a fuck about my nose, but I was shattered about the shirt because my nose was never great anyway. Anyway, but, um, yeah, so terrific.

Josh: Is that a, is that a thing sort of in the, um, the, the bodybuilding sort of industry for people to just naturally go into security?

Craig: Or not everyone, but I mean, it, look, it was a bit, it was a bit more, um, laid back then in that there were not all the— and, and it's good that it is the way it is now, but it was a little bit more, you know, cowboy.

Josh: Did you have a number, one of those like white?

Craig: No, had no number. We, we had to wear a particular uniform though, but there were no— where everyone had a number and was qualified. And no, it was just blokes who looked a little bit intimidating and could go a little bit. So it's like there was no, you know, just wear a nice black polo. Yeah, but I mean, you wouldn't last very long any— not— I mean, not that I was a tough guy, don't— I'm not saying that, but you wouldn't last very long because it's not a, you know, depending on where you work. It's not, you know, I'm not a tough guy anyway, but you just, you'd get punched in the face and you'd be done.

Josh: It was a real thing. I remember like as a kid you would have like the family friends that were like the people that would end up doing security at all the parties and stuff like that. But yeah, it's—

Tommy: Well, because you, what are you doing? You're looking, you're being, you're there for when trouble goes down. So, you're looking for trouble.

Craig: 100%.

Tommy: You're wanting it, but that's your job.

Craig: Look, you spend No, well, I would spend 95% of the night doing nothing, just walking around and talking to people. And but in terms of— you would spend— there would be, especially where I worked, you would always be in an altercation, always. 1, 2, 3, 4 times a night. You would never— there'd never be a night where there wasn't trouble. There's 2,000 people there and it's a nightclub and everybody's drinking and doing whatever they're doing. And by, you know, midnight it's just a Yeah, shitfest of humanity just falling on each other.

Josh: Well, we're talking about like, um, what time of— I just heard a noise. Did you hear that?

Tommy: Motorbike.

George: Motorbike.

Josh: Um, talking about how much you're sleeping and all that sort of thing. Was doing the security thing—

Craig: Oh, terrible.

Josh: Yeah, because I can imagine you're doing shit hours.

Craig: And do you know what I used to do? This is what I did. I, I, I worked in a gym. I would get to the gym at 5 o'clock. This is at the start of my weekend. 5 o'clock, open the gym. I'd work nearly all the day. I'd work till about 4, so what's that, 11 hours or something. Then I'd go home, shower, shit, shave, shampoo, uh, no shampoo. Then I would drive to the, uh, Prince Mark in Doveton, which is outside of Dandenong. I would start work there at 5. I would work there till 10. Then I would get on the old motorbike or in the, the Ford Escort with the roll cage, depending on what I took. And then I would get myself over to, um, the Matthew Flinders on Warrigal Road at 10:30. And then I'd work work there till 3. So I've been working for 18 hours.

Tommy: Geez.

Craig: And then I'd drive along Warrigal Road, stop at 7-Eleven, get myself a pie, chocolate milk, and 2 pineapple donuts, and inhale those on the way home. They are best. Yeah, best ever.

Josh: Totally deserved.

Tommy: Pineapple ones, they were a thing.

Craig: They'd be like wet, magic, almost magic. Pretty much all protein. Yeah, yeah, no sugar, just all protein. And I'd inhale those in the Escort on the way home, and and then at, I don't know, about 7 o'clock on Saturday morning, I'd reboot, back up, go to the gym.

George: Geez.

Craig: Do some stuff. So my weekends were mayhem.

Tommy: But where did you live back then?

Craig: Then I was living in Hampton. Yeah.

Tommy: Same place?

George: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig: Oh no, not same place, different place. But I was working at a gym in Hampton on the railway line called Trackside Sports.

Tommy: Oh, that's right.

Craig: Yeah. And yeah, it was fun. You know what? It was fun because I grew up in a really straighty 180 environment. So I grew up in the country, a Catholic boy, Catholic colleges, you know, didn't smoke, didn't drink. So, you know, but I had mates that, that trained with me that did security and they're like, come and work with us. I'm like, I don't know. And they're like, come on, it's all right. You know, I'm like, is it? And it's just interesting because for me it was a big departure. I'd never been to a nightclub till the first night.

Josh: I've never been.

Tommy: At least you got paid the first time.

Craig: I've never been to a nightclub in my life ever except to work.

Tommy: 'Look, what about here, mate?' This is— you went in that garage, that was a brothel.

Josh: Or—

Craig: yeah, well, that was the first time, but there will be an invoice, so I'm getting paid.

Tommy: The, um, what was you thinking back then? Uh, what was your thinking about your thinking, your metacognition? What was the level?

Craig: I was just— I was not— well, I'm not that smart now, so I'm not going to say I've evolved, but it was like I was very much about experiences and having fun.

George: One.

Craig: But I was always interested in— I didn't articulate it out loud, but I was always interested in human behaviour and how people worked, you know. And there's some really— a nightclub is a really interesting study of humanity. Like, there are some amazing, amazing people and amazing things going on. Yeah, I used to watch— so back then, like, this was in the '80s, and I would watch guys come in who I would guess back then some of them were earning $400 a They would spend $300 in a night. What, what are you gonna do now? Like, that's Friday. And, and then they would come back Saturday and they would have next to no money. And I'm thinking, how will this— and I wasn't being— I didn't mean to be judgy, I just used to— I was fascinated because I didn't blow money on anything really other than protein powder and pineapple donuts.

George: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig: Pies.

Josh: When you think, um, security motorbikes.

George: Yes.

Josh: Bodybuilding. Yes. I go to bikies.

Craig: Yes.

Josh: Having sort of been in the, the world of the security stuff and the bodybuilding, what's the psychology, uh, of going into gangs or that sort of bikie culture? And has it changed from back in the day when you're doing security, that, that style of bikie, to, to what there is today.

Craig: I'm definitely not an expert in that, so I'm guessing. But I didn't work with, um, I didn't work with any of the boys who are club members. Um, but I, I think there's just, you know, it's like that's for them almost, for some of them, like their natural habitat, you know, like, um, and it's easy and they know people.

Josh: Um, it's like their church.

Craig: Yeah. Well, and I don't think that that has changed a whole lot. You know, I, I've known a few, uh, motorcycle club members, and, um, you know, it's like, I— yeah, you can only go on your experiences, but my experiences personally were always good because they always treated me well. Yeah, you know, so, um, but yeah, it's, it's in any group, in any group, whether or not that's a motorcycle club or whether or not it's, you know, a triathlon club or whether or not it's vegans or, you know, there's that— they have their own culture, they have their own language, they have their own kind of operating system that's, you know, really fascinating. Fascinating. I love, I love being transplanted into the middle of a group that I'm nothing like. Yeah, not better or worse, but just different. Like, this is awesome over here.

Josh: Are you an outlier in that regard? Like, I guess looking at the example of the, this doing security and not going to clubs, do you think that that's the, the common thing, or were you Were you the outlier?

Craig: Um, I was definitely different. Um, and again, not better, I was just different. But I, you know, like, I learned a lot. I learned, um, you know, one thing about doing security is that you have to be able to read people. You have to be able to negotiate. You have to be socially aware, spatially aware. You need to be able to be the calm in the chaos. You need to de-escalate situations. Uh, you need to be an excellent communicator. You know, last thing I wanted to do was be rolling around the front of the bloody Matthew Flinders in the car park punching on with blokes, you know. But that, you know, that would happen periodically. But it, you know, you're not— that's not what you want to do, you know.

Josh: Um, is it a fight or flight, like, in regards to you personally being physically fit and being physically able, do you feel that in those moments, or is there still a level of fear?

Craig: Oh, massive fear. And anyone who goes that they're not fearful is lying. So they're scared and lying. Yeah. But you're not— I mean, you're not walking around, you know, riddled with anxiety because you get desensitised to the job and what you're doing. But But, you know, for me, a lot of more than, say, walking around being scared, walking around being vigilant and aware. You know, I haven't spoken about this ever live, I don't think, on air, but that's interesting. But it's just, you know, for me, it taught me how to negotiate and navigate certain social contexts that I'd never been in.

Josh: Is there, is there a psychology to it that you can take You know, day to day. GB, for instance, he says, you say that if you're in an intimidating position, if he's walking down Victoria Street and feeling uncomfortable— Punch first. No, no. He walks around psychologically like he's got a gun in his pocket.

Craig: Right. Yeah.

Josh: That's George's words. I don't know if you resonate with that.

Tommy: He doesn't have a gun.

Josh: George doesn't have a gun. It's just about—

George: Yeah. Pretending like you've got one, I guess.

Craig: I'm not sure about that, George. Do some studies on that.

George: When I did suggest that to Josh, Junkie went up to him and screamed at him.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I did. I've had some bad experiences on Victoria Street. And so what I'm trying to— like, TJ will know, everyone notice it when I'm on Victoria Street. If I see someone coming towards, even pre— I like to pretend it's a COVID thing, but this happened way before COVID If I see someone, it's like they've got an energy and I'll walk. Like, even if I try and do a straight line, I'm like you know, darting away because I can't be fucked with people.

Craig: But you've got a little bit of Humphrey B. Bear energy about you. You know, it's like you're not the most intimidating cat, you know.

Tommy: Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, because it's cuddly but lovable.

Craig: And like, everyone fucking loves Humphrey. Everyone loves you. You're like—

George: Thank you.

Craig: Like, you're not intimidating, and that's—

Josh: But you'll beat the shit out of Humphrey if you needed to.

Craig: I would fuck Humphrey up if I had to. Don't worry, if Tommy was in trouble and you No, I love Humphrey, but yeah, I mean, and so how do you do it?

Josh: Like, what is the, the mechanism? So if you think about the fear, I heard, um, you know, Seth Godin talks about, um, tired when you're doing a marathon. It's not, it's not about not feeling the tired, it's about where do you put the tired. I guess it's not about not feeling the fear, it's about where you put the fear. Have you worked out a mechanism around that? That?

Craig: Well, I mean, we are wired for survival, and our brain is built for, uh, to be hypervigilant around threats. You know, that's what you brought— that's one of the key functions of your brain. And so we are, um, we've been programmed for millennia to be, um, even though we don't— even though we live in such a comfy suburban, you know, warm, friendly, and well, warm environment that that like genetically we are programmed to anticipate, negotiate, and be aware of threats. So for me, if I'm walking along the street and I see someone that I think this person might be dodgy, I just don't make eye contact. I don't look at them, I don't look in their face, and I make sure that I don't look particularly friendly. It's not like I just, you know, I just don't. If, but, but having said that, You're like a frilled neck lizard. There's 90% chance I'm totally wrong, but let's just not take the chance. Let's just— you keep going this way, I'll keep going that way, we're all good. And, you know, but most of the time, you know, most— like, I have very, very little trouble.

George: Yeah.

Craig: Ever.

Tommy: So do you think the— ever— my head hurts, but like the—

Craig: How are you boys holding up?

Tommy: Not good, not good. The the evolutionary reason?

George: What's that?

Tommy: There's a term for it. So it's like why things—

Josh: primal sort of—

Tommy: yeah, like anxiety as a mechanism that would have been something a part of our early existence as humans. What is the evolutionary benefit, purpose, purpose of anxiety?

Craig: Yeah, so I, I, you know, anxiety is, uh, not new obviously, um, but anxiety is not necessarily a positive Um, fear can be a positive because fear can keep us safe and help us make good decisions and help us be vigilant. But once we start to get out of awareness and vigilance and into anxiety, we start to slide more towards the more dysfunctional end of the scale from being able to cope. Um, so I don't know that there's a necessarily a positive purpose. I think low-level anxiety can be appropriate sometimes. Because that can correlate with, like I said, with vigilance and awareness. Um, I remember, you know, many times when, um, I go and do gigs and there's— it's a big audience or it's an important time, or like I did my first, um, big gig for a year in terms of face-to-face two weekends ago, and I had to talk for the whole weekend. So I had to work with this organisation and spoke all day Saturday and all day Sunday. And there was a low level of anxiety around my performance because I hadn't done that for a year. I'd done it a lot on Zoom, but having an auditorium or a room full of humans and me, and you've got to talk all day today and all day tomorrow, and you've got to be interesting, and you've got to create connection, you've got to be a bit funny, and you've got to be relevant. And, you know, it's like, for me, it was like I just played my first game of footy and it was Round 17 and I hadn't done any training. Yeah, yeah, felt like that because it's not like I did 3 1-hour warm-up gigs. Yeah, you know.

Tommy: So do you think the feedback on yourself, so that whatever that feeling is, what that anxiety is telling you, do you think that is actually an illusion? Or like, because I'm sure you did fine but what do you think, like, if the real meaning of that actually is for the situation?

Craig: So if you did do fine, anxiety as an experience is more physiological because there are, you know, there's stuff going on. So usually with anxiety is elevated heart rate, elevated blood pressure, sympathetic nervous system is switched on, fight or flight, you know, um, you're producing stress hormones, adrenaline, cortisol, norepinephrine, so there's a whole lot of stuff going on in your body which gives you that feeling. So if you didn't have any of that biological stuff going on, you wouldn't be anxious. Yeah, like if they're— if, if you're simp— if your nervous system was in parasympathetic mode, which is kind of cool and calm and laid back, and your heart rate was 60 and your blood pressure was low and your body was producing dopamine and and oxytocin and all those kind of cool chemicals, you would not be stressed. And so there's always a physical component.

Josh: And so which is first though? So for instance, with anxiety, is it the— so for instance, like I feel sometimes like my throat can feel a bit funny or those types of things. Is it—

Craig: That's a good question.

Josh: Is it physical first or is it the mental state that's then causing the physical response?

Craig: Good question. Look, I'm not an expert in this, so I'm just going to guess. But right, you— so when we talk about the mind, usually the mind is first, right? Because we go, oh, is that someone on the stairs? But it's not meant to be anyone coming.

Matt: Hang on, hang on.

Craig: I didn't— can you hear the footsteps? I can. Shit, someone's coming up, right? All of a sudden there's an idea, there's a story, and there is no one. I just thought I heard something, but the storey is there's someone coming. The development of the storey is there's someone coming with a gun, at least, right? Yeah, right. So it often starts with a story, and then that turns into, um, you know, these physiological responses. But the mind is kind of, you know, three tiers, which is, um, conscious, subconscious, unconscious. So sometimes there's something happening subconsciously that we're not aware of, you know. So your conscious mind is about 5% of what happens in your mind happens on that conscious level. So even though right now you're listening to my words and you're paying attention consciously and you're thinking about the answer or the next question or whatever, subconsciously you know that we've probably been talking for about 40 minutes, we've probably got 20 or 30 to go, you know, you're gonna be— it's, it's about 17 degrees in this room and there's all this shit that you're— and you're aware subconsciously that that, um, that these people are kind of 3 or 4 metres away and all, all of these things like this. It never stops in there.

George: Yeah.

Craig: Um, and so sometimes there's a subconscious kind of fear happening, running, that isn't front of mind, and that triggers, you know, that triggers something where you're not even aware of it.

Josh: I think that the livestream stuff is a good example of like where I'm always at with these types of things, which I think is the 1,000 episodes, what it allows you to do is to do more things, potentially like add on more things, if that makes sense.

Craig: Yeah.

Josh: So being able to— so for instance, if we think about the early days of the podcast, we couldn't have necessarily— we wouldn't have comfortably been able to have you and Diavalla going at the same time and feel like we're actually able to steer that ship and understand getting what's going on. And so, like, you definitely see through time the skill is being able to say, okay, I can manage this, I can manage that, more stimulus at once.

Tommy: You think the capacity, you know, we could talk about like, I have a greater capacity now to function in an environment like this. Are we talking about subconscious capacity?

Craig: Like, there's a cognitive processing that's been done by our conscious But also, whatever that thing is, that, that stimulus, that thing that, that was the source of the anxiety, you over time create a different relationship with that. And what that means is that thing that used to stress you doesn't stress you anymore. Or instead of it being 10 out of 10 stress, it's now a 4. And the, the stimulus is the same, but the response is the same. Which is why, um, if I said, um, I've got to get in, I've got to get up tomorrow and talk to 1,000 people at an event, my No, but my overwhelming, um, emotion about that would be excitement because I'm like, cool, that's lots of people. If Melissa, who's my business partner, had to do that, she would not sleep for 4 weeks. She would hate that. That would be the last thing that she would want to do. That would be an overwhelming source of anxiety for her, even though it's doing the exact same thing that I would do with no anxiety. So it's not about the stimulus as much as it is the experiencer. So if, you know, there are some things that she does comfortably that give me anxiety because I don't know how to do it properly.

Tommy: Where do you think fears come from? Like when you have sort of obscure fears that you can't connect to a conscious moment?

Craig: I think, I think, um, biologically we're kind of wired that like part of that is learned, but also there's an element that's just in our DNA that we're scared of some things. It's like, how do certain animals know to be scared of other animals? Right.

Tommy: That instinct, you could say.

Craig: Yeah, instinct. So, but it's still, it's, it's in there. It's in their DNA. So there's, and it's not like one dog went over and told that other dog, hey, just so you know, this is what a snake looks like. But, uh, and by the way, they can kill you. Um, but most dogs— some aren't, but most dogs are terrified of snakes, right? And so if they see a snake, even though they've never seen one before, they'll run a million miles. Um, and that's, that's kind of hardwired. And I think also with us, we just inherently know that there are some things that, that we should be scared of because it's, it's part of our survival. And then the other stuff, we just You know, you learn or you get programmed by your parents or your experiences or your peers.

Josh: Having your confidence knocked, I feel like, can be an interesting one. So, it's like you might have a base level of confidence on something. So, for instance, say before the pandemic, you might feel a certain way about your skills and your ability in front of a crowd. Then you get a break and then, you know, you're sort of getting your head about it about it, and then it comes out the other end with the lack of confidence. I even noticed that where I had a bit of a panic attack during a client call, which was really strange. And it was sort of this feeling of not being able to, um, talk properly, feeling like I was like, um, struggling to swallow, like I couldn't get out what I wanted to say. And it freaked me out from a confidence level because what it's— because I had that experience, I was like, well, well, how do I know that that's not going to happen again? Um, and so like from a confidence perspective, where do you land with this sort of stuff? Have you had your confidence knocked and how do you work to build it?

Craig: 100%.

Matt: Yep, yep.

Craig: I'm still scared of stuff. Like, I think the thing is everyone, um, me included, everyone is on a level, you know, uh, dysfunctional and a bit scared of stuff and we overthink stuff and we we procrastinate and we get frustrated. And, um, you know, so it depends, it depends what the thing is. But if, like, there was a fair element of me going back to study at 56 and putting myself in an environment and a situation where it's like, um, without trying to sound silly, I don't need a PhD. Like, my life is good, I'm relatively successful, I've done okay. I don't need a PhD, but I want to get one and I want to do it and I want to be— for a bunch of reasons and not what people might think. Like, I actually am now really enjoying the process. I've learned a lot. I understand a lot of stuff that I didn't understand before, and it's been a growth opportunity. And also I love things that make my brain work better. But yeah, horribly fearful because I just felt felt hopelessly inadequate and underqualified. And you know, what happens?

Tommy: What's the response for you? What is that? How's that rear its head?

Craig: I feel like a fake. I feel like a fraud. I feel like someone's going to figure it all out, you know. Not so much now, but it's like when you go into an environment and people— like, people thought, you know, um, I I got introduced when I got to— so the part, the place where I study, it's called Brain Park, is the neuroscience department of Monash Uni in Clayton. And, um, you know, day one, we had a meeting and there was just happened to be a meeting that day and I got introduced. And, you know, Craig comes from that and he's done this and that and it's kind of— yeah, I'm like, yeah, keep your expectations low though because I'm good at all that but I'm going to be shit at this, you know. So So I'm already wanting to keep people's expectations low because I don't want to be embarrassed. But yeah, that— I think that's normal. And I think it's actually great when, when— especially when us men say, by the way, I'm scared, by the way, I'm nervous, by the way, I feel like an imposter. I know I'm not, but I feel like it. Because I think then it liberates other people to go, oh, thank God, me too. You know, like, we, we think we've— like, I, I know a fair bit, and I've learned a lot, and I've seen a lot, and I've done a lot. But, you know, in context of what there is to know, I still hardly know anything. And I think it's okay to say that. It's okay to say I'm a work in progress, and I do some things great and some things terribly. And, you know, that, that helps people navigate life because we realise that we're all human, and we're all flawed, and we're all a bit broken, and we're all a bit insecure. And we're all overthinkers, but that doesn't mean that we can't do awesome stuff, or we can't, we can't take chances, or we can't grow, or we can't write a book, or we can't do a PhD, or we can't build an awesome podcast like you guys have done. It doesn't mean that. It just means that we're acknowledging our humanity while still committing to do the best with what we've got.

Josh: On the PhD, obviously going into the classroom, you knew where you stood, or you already sort of felt like you're on the back step, or you had to sort of reset expectations with people in a scenario where it is, uh, your bread and butter, or where you have confidence. I guess losing confidence in things that you think you're really good at is really hard. Has there been any examples with that?

Craig: 100 times when you go and you fuck up a gig. And you, you know, because when you're a speaker and you're in front of audiences all the time, you know, your, your ability to be able to set the tone and the mood and the energy in the room is paramount. And you have your, you have your things that, you know, work your storeys or your jokes or your one-liners in the middle of things, you know, and I don't prepare too much. I'm quite organic.

George: Think.

Craig: But sometimes something that will land most of the time, it just doesn't land, and there's a sea of blank faces staring at you, and you're like, oh God, they hate me, and I'm 2 minutes in. You're going, they, they actually hate me, and I've got 58 minutes to go. So, you know, sometimes trying to unravel that is really difficult. And there have been times where I've done— yeah, I, I like, for example, right now I'm running a mentoring group on Monday nights, and that is 12 weeks, and I've got 230 people from 12 countries and we do it on Zoom, right? So there's a bunch of people and they're great, and— but I very much freestyle, and, um, I, you know, because I want it to be interactive and organic, and so I talk, give or take, for about an hour and a quarter, an hour and a half, a bit of interaction in there, um, but then at the end there's about half an hour of interaction. And so, but I talk about, you know, every week we unpack a different area, blah blah blah. Anyway, not Monday just gone but the one before, I literally did a topic for about 15 minutes that I'd done 3 weeks before. And because I don't keep notes of what I did, it's just all in my head. And it wasn't life or death, but I literally told this whole group the same stuff that I'd already told them. And I hated myself for a week because I thought they'll think I'm unprofessional or I'm unprepared or I don't care. Or— and that wasn't the case at all. It wasn't the case at all. Like, half of them wouldn't have noticed, right? And the ones that did probably thought I was doing revision. Yeah, like, but the storey that I told myself was, you know, that I fucked up and they hate me.

Josh: I guess that's the high standard. Like, when you build the confidence, there's a high standard that goes along with it. Um, GB, we had an Uber Eats order come through.

Tommy: Oh yeah, I was actually gonna wait till Craig leave.

Josh: So it's got something healthy, uh, that Craig could have.

Tommy: I didn't want—

Josh: so Emma, uh, Emma Lang— no, you guys eat, uh, said the delivery is from me, something healthy while Harps is there.

Tommy: Oh, so this is Emma Lang, she's from, uh, Queensland. Queensland. And wow, she is an absolute gronk and we love her.

Craig: Wow, that's super loud.

Josh: So we'll see how healthy we're talking.

Tommy: It's still a bit warm. Okay, great. I think she may be pulling your leg when she says super healthy. Um, there's Oreo coated. Emma, this is why we love you. Oreo coated and Mars bar coated, like little balls.

Josh: Oh my God.

Craig: Wow, that's literally diabetes in a box right there.

Tommy: Just, I'll just cheque If it's healthy. Yeah, healthy.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, they seem healthy. Wow, they're pretty much a protein ball.

Tommy: Emma, that is amazing. Wow.

Josh: You don't have to eat them. Thank you.

Craig: Um, can I just ask, have people seen these cakes? Yeah, not really.

Josh: Oh yeah, do we?

Craig: Not on any Could you imagine putting Tommy's head in your mouth?

Tommy: I licked Josh's face before.

Craig: What is that about?

Josh: Um, they're from GB and Jess.

Craig: The Deputy Talk Show.

Tommy: Uh, GB, did you have any little, uh, archival momentos?

George: Well, I just thought I'd play one of your videos, TJ, from last year when, you know, to get us fired up for the last hour. Fire up!

Craig: Who's coming in for the last hour, can I ask?

Josh: Ryan Shelton.

Craig: Wow, bringing out the big guns.

George: Yeah, big guns. Um, this time last— or June last year, TJ, you did a video every day for a month, which is pretty solid effort. I think it was like 20 videos or something. Um, and this was one of them during a bit of low motivation.

Josh: Do you want to play it now? Yeah, go for it.

Tommy: It's only day 3 of this video project. And I'm tired. I've been up the last couple of nights and I need some motivation. I need a hit. I need my boy Craig Harper.

Craig: We've spoken many times about analysis paralysis, and a lot of us live in our thoughts. You know, we inhabit two worlds. We inhabit an internal world and an external world, and this is where the storeys and the self-talk and the self-loathing and the excitement and the joy and the passion and the ideas and the creative. This is from where it all kind of resides, but it's not until we actually step out of that, we step out of the theoretical construct that is all of that internal stuff, and we put ourselves in the middle of the practical, the doing, by going to the gym, by physically writing that story, by playing your guitar, by you getting out with your camera and shooting some footage. Otherwise, everything Everything is just this perpetual idea, this perpetual intention, this concept, this construct, this theory, this dream that never gets breathed life into it. There will be things that work, there will be things that don't work. I've opened businesses that didn't work, I've done presentations that didn't work. Right now I'm doing a PhD, which is— I'm still scared, but the only way that I can be less scared and more confident, more capable and more resilient at that very high academic level that I feel very unqualified to be in is by putting myself in the situation. I'm still insecure, I'm still fearful, I still feel unworthy and like a fraud on a regular basis, but that's not gonna go. I can't think myself out of that. Doesn't matter what the self-talk is, it's an emotion, it's a feeling. But what happens is when I I put myself into a place where now I'm working against the resistance of my fear or my laziness or my procrastination, just like you do, Tom, when you go, there's got to be less lag time between my idea and my action. Once I step into that, one, I'm creating results in my practical results that can be seen. And I'm also changing my operating system. I'm becoming more proactive, productive, and effective. And less stuck in my inner dialogue.

Tommy: Oh mate, I'm fired up. What do I owe you?

Craig: $27.50.

Tommy: I'll PayPal it.

Craig: Wow, that's well done. Don't clap me, clap yourself. That was— if you can make me good, you're bloody— you're a wonder. That was good.

Tommy: Fired up, Craig.

Craig: I don't know that I've seen that. I think I've seen it once. That's very good.

George: Yeah, I liked it.

Craig: You did very well. You know, you did You should like get in video production or something. You should think about that.

Tommy: But aren't we like— our set— like, there's such a distortion in our own minds. I watch my own videos, I'm like, fuck, they're not bad. But I don't think about them like that. But I watch it, I'm like, fuck, you know, did that. But constantly. And it's always been there, but it's like, how much do you listen to it? It sort of changes depending on so many variables because it might be heightened when you're feeling more anxious or things aren't going your way.

Craig: I, I hate watching myself or listening to myself, which is funny because I'm always being filmed, recorded, you know, it's like my life. But yeah, I don't listen. I will listen to podcasts sometimes if we've had somebody that I thought was fascinating that I want to rehear what he or she said. Um, but yeah, I don't, you know, I don't like looking at myself. I don't like hearing my voice much, but it just is what it is.

Tommy: Um, Sam Harris tells a storey where he is, you know, talking about the sense of self and understanding self and what that means and how there's multiple versions of self, um, in different contexts. And he tells a storey of doing his, uh, PhD and He is on one side a sick, very successful author, and he's doing a class with this teacher who he feels inadequate, and he's— and he can't do the work, or something's going on. And then that night, Sam's having dinner with the lecturer's boss because the boss wants to know how to become a successful author, but he feels so small in the moment where feeling inadequate, and then you walk into a room and, you know, you're feeling a heightened sense of self, or that version. What is it for you in terms of self and your understanding of that concept, sense of self? Ah, wow, it's a bit— it's a huge question.

Craig: Yeah, no, I love this. So I'm really interested in identity, that like who we think we are or how we see ourselves and why we see ourselves that way, but also So, um, whether or not we have an external— like an outside-in identity or an inside-out— an outside-in identity is generally when I get my sense of self from stuff, from my bank balance, from my car, from my body, from my face, from my brand, from my reputation, from my degrees, my qualifications, the whatever, all the visible stuff, right? Right. And the problem with— one of the problems with that is when I get my sense of self from what people think of me, or my bank balance, or my car, or my, my good looks, or my big muscles, or my whatever, I'm always going to be somewhat insecure because that stuff can go, right? That'll disappear at some stage, or we could go broke, or we could lose the car, or, you know, we could gain 50 pounds, or whatever, right? And so— and there's nothing wrong with having any of that, but we don't want to confuse what we have with who we are. But for me, identity is more an internal value-driven thing. It's like, what are my beliefs? What are my values? What's my internal sat-nav telling me? Um, what really matters to me, you know? And you remember, both you remember, about a year ago I was training and my training partner literally died, you know. So we're in the gym and he died. He literally had a cardiac arrest and, arrest and died and I started working on him straight away, obviously, and giving him CPR and doing all the normal things that you would do. And fortunately, the good news is he was only dead for 17 minutes. But it's amazing what can go on in 17 minutes. And in 17 minutes, it could have been 17 days. And all of a sudden— and you know, we all go, oh yeah, it's so true. But like, this is what I say to people: don't wait till someone fucking dies, or don't wait till you nearly die, or don't wait till you get diagnosed with this or that before you start to do a deep kind of dive on what actually matters to you. Let's not wait for the catastrophe. And so for me, my identity is— comes from a platform of, you know, who I'm connected to, what I'm about, what I can do for others. I know that sounds cliché, um, don't care. How I can serve people, how I can empower people to be a better version of them. And not, not better as in performance necessarily, but happier, calmer, more fulfilled, more balanced, uh, more joyful, you know, all that stuff. So I think for identity to be healthy, it needs to be more about the internal than the external. And we are a very externally focused culture and society. We, you know, we judge people's success on on their stuff. Oh wow, look what he's driving, or where she's living, or what she's doing, or look at the amount of Insta followers he or she has got. Or look at even— and we all do it, like we all look at our numbers, right? But you know, um, one of my favourite scriptures— I don't want to get all biblical on you, but it's, what, what does it profit a man if he gains the world but loses his soul? And I feel like we are so we're so—

Tommy: actually written by the founders of Instagram.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, it's true, that's true. AKA Saint Paul. Um, but you know, it's like we— and there's nothing wrong with building wealth and, and accumulating stuff, there's nothing wrong with that. But when we confuse our stuff with ourself, then I think there's a problem. And you know, it's like, I think because so many people get their identity from all things external there's this underlying insecurity. And I've worked with many people that, that your listeners and viewers would know, many. And away from the shininess of their life, they're medicated for anxiety, they're medicated for depression, they're overthinkers, they don't sleep, um, and, and their internal world is crap. Their external world is amazing. But their internal world, which is really where we live. We live in our feelings, we live in our thoughts, we live in our dreams and hopes and ideas and internal experiences. That's where we live.

Josh: You work with a bunch of people who are in crisis, or they're, you know, suffering from addiction, or, you know, these, these big things that you would describe as rock bottom. The idea of rock bottom, you hear people say that sometimes you need to hit rock bottom before the change will come, which I guess is to your point around, you know, having someone die or nearly dying yourself. Do you subscribe to the idea that some people need to hit rock bottom before they change?

Craig: Um, I don't know that I subscribe to that idea, but I know what you're saying. Uh, yes, I, I think that sadly, um, We don't need to because we can all, like, we can all change behaviour tomorrow. You know how? You just get up and do different stuff. And people go, oh, but how? I go, well, what are you currently doing? Oh, I don't exercise. All right, well, tomorrow exercise. They're like, but how? I go, what do you mean, but how? You know, my question is not how. My question is, why won't you? Yeah, like, why won't you? Because it's voluntary. Like, nobody's nailing you to the couch. Nobody's coming into your house and pushing cake into your mouth. Like, these are all choices, you know.

Tommy: Um, today we've actually had a bit of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can't be held responsible for any of this.

Matt: Exactly.

Josh: But yeah, so what is the— so if you think about what is— if you were to define what rock bottom is, because rock bottom in some regards is just, uh, it's everyone's unique version, right? So, and so rock bottom is really just where you ended up deciding that it was enough of a reason to change. And for some people people, their rock bottom is 4 kilos like you mentioned. Yeah. Or, or missing, missing the gym for a week. Other people, it's, you know, 50 years of, yeah, obesity.

Craig: Yeah. Look, I, I wouldn't think— yeah, look, I think, um, like, I spent— and I'm, again, I'm no guru in this, this is just my thoughts— like, uh, I worked with, at the coalface of addiction, with addicts and alcoholics for 3 years at Day rehab. So, um, and I wasn't, you know, I didn't do heaps, but I was there every week. And like, at rock bottom in addiction is rock bottom. Like, what we think is rock bottom, most of us, it's like, fuck off, that's not— you're not even halfway there to rock bottom. Rock bottom is you're gonna die real soon. Like, you've— you're gonna die soon if you don't change your life or change your operating system or change your thinking or change your your behavior, you're going to die. And, you know, um, even— and God bless— but even, you know, about 3 months ago, and Mick's spoken about this publicly, so— but one of the, one of the guys from Dayhab who was a counselor, um, relapsed and passed away, you know. And this is like— addiction is fucking terrifying. And people like— I don't think most people really get addiction till you've been around somebody who is, um, uh, or been someone who is really, really, really at that place where this is not disruptive, this is like life-threatening. You know, we're not talking about someone who just eats too many pies.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And they need to go for a jog. We're talking about people who are stealing from their family, who are lying, who are deceptive, who are violent, who, never sleeping, who, you know, like, and, and they don't want to be that. They don't want to be that, but they've just been overtaken by this thing.

Josh: But the interesting thing, I guess, is that the, uh, what you're talking about there is the cost of that addiction, right? So the cost of that addiction is, is extremely high. So it's, it's easier to communicate how addictive it must be because it's like, okay, if someone's willing to do that cost It's— they must be highly addicted. When you look at things like food, and when you say that you are, you know, extremely addicted to these types of things, or you have addictive, uh, personality traits, how much of that is you elevating, uh, that, uh, part of you to really highlight it so you can address it, and how much of it feels real in regards to how scary that addiction feels for you?

Craig: I think there are levels, aren't there? You know, but like, for me, I, I just, you know, and this is— I don't want to compare my food issues with a proper addiction, but I think a lot of food's a really interesting one because a lot of people have food issues and a lot of people have a version of, somewhere on the scale, a food addiction. And the challenging thing, of course, is we all have to eat, whereas with booze or with drugs you can just not use or drink, right? Obviously. But we've all got to eat. And so the challenge then is to navigate our relationship with food. So I'm mucking around about these cakes here, but— but don't forget fucking heroin. Get that shit away from me. But, but, you know, like for me, I am just— and again, this is not what I think anyone else should do, but I personally, I'm just better not to open that door. Yeah, because when I open that door, it, it's like changes something in me.

Josh: And so when someone says to you, um, balance, Craig, have the fucking piece of cheesecake, uh, you know, the, the real strength or the, the real show of character is being able to have balance and you should be able to have it, um, what do you say to that?

Craig: I think that's manipulative bullshit. I think you don't have to eat cheesecake to prove anything to anyone, and I don't think eating cheesecake cake means you're balanced. I don't think that the indicator for being balanced is that, that you can eat crap or drink beer, you know. Um, uh, I'm— I think I'm pretty balanced, but I just know how my body works and how my brain responds to certain things. And so I 100% know that for me, not eating junk is a better path for me. Do I tell anyone else to do that? No. No, do whatever you want.

Josh: But why do other people care so much about what everyone else does?

Craig: Oh, because people love to judge and, you know, influence and coerce and control. And, you know, I've been— people have been telling me to have a beer since I was 18. So just one, mate, one won't kill you. I'm like, I know, thank you, you drink all the beers you want, I don't want one. Why not? I go, I don't drink. Like, I don't drink, I've never drunk, and so I don't miss it. And so but, but not for any ethical or moral reasons. I just don't want to drink alcohol. I don't see that that is— that will make my life better. I've been around a lot of alcoholics. I've been around a lot of drunk people. I've been around alcohol a lot, and I don't think people shouldn't drink. I don't judge people. I think people should do whatever they want as long as it's legal and doesn't hurt anyone. But I find it hilarious that I do this thing which is actually good for my body and it bothers people.

Josh: Yeah, it seems Stoicism's a big, a big thing, especially in the space that you're playing in. Do you see yourself as having the qualities of what Stoicism is about?

Craig: That's an interesting question. I love the Stoics, and it's funny that you bring that up. Like, one of the bits of research that I looked at, I was trying to figure out when the first kind of research, proper research, or the first piece of writing was done on my PhD topic, which is self-awareness, and it was in 2500 BC, and it was by Socrates. And he said, uh, the beginning of wisdom, um, the beginning of wisdom is— what is it? Oh, essentially he's saying for a man to understand himself is the beginning of wisdom. I forget the exact words. It's Friday night, very late. But, but, um, yeah, sorry, what was the question?

Josh: Yeah, so stoicism, are you relating it to what you're doing?

Craig: Stoicism is a very practical, pragmatic way to look at life.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: You know, and it's like, oh well, um, you know, my dog died. Uh, I love my dog. Um, I wish he didn't die, but he did die. And so I'm not gonna— I'm not gonna sit on the couch for the next 3 months. Um, and that, that seems very harsh to some people. But, you know, I think that was Socrates, right? That said though, about the dog— yeah, well, but what about like Marcus Aurelius or Epictetus?

Josh: Um, the, the idea of, uh, stoicism, what you're describing, and the, the more toxic idea of suck it up, mate. Um, how, how do you sort distinguish between those two ideas?

Craig: Yeah, so the suck it up, mate, it, it's, you know, it's a really interesting time now because we, we're navigating a new era of communication and media and accessibility to opinion, you know, with what we've got right now. So this is anyone in any country in the world that's got access to the internet can watch this.

Tommy: Hawaii, Denmark, you know.

Craig: 3 fuckwits in a room talking about not much, right? You know, um, but I think, um, I think being able to— there's a time where people will respond, um, to directness, but you don't want to, you don't want to— you know, some people, some people pretend that their aggression or their coercion is just being direct and honest. You know, it's a slippery slope.

Josh: Um, what is coercion?

Craig: Is when you— you— what does it mean? Yeah, coercion means when you're trying to manipulate or force someone to behave a certain way against— probably against their will or awareness. Um, and so, you know, it's like, I personally, there are times when I will call people on their shit, but I know them. I know and I'm coming from a good place. Doesn't mean I'll always produce a good outcome, but I think too that, you know, there's a real danger in, you know, in mollycoddling people. And, you know, not everyone needs a trophy or a ribbon because you didn't eat cake today, well done, you know. Oh, I walked 2Ks, I'm going to post that on Facebook, and if I don't get 100 likes and ticks and approvals, I'm going to capitulate, you know. Hey, you're a 40-year-old dude, you don't need a round of applause because you didn't eat McDonald's. Like, it's just fucking pathetic. Like, harden up a little bit. Yeah, like, you're not a baby. Like, we, we need to— yes, we need to care for people, we need to be understanding and aware and empathetic, but we also need to help people become strong and resilient so that when the shit comes, and the shit is coming, um, that they are okay. Like, I want to help people be independent and strong and resilient Brilliant. I don't want them to rely on me. I don't want them to rely on another person. We're not talking about people who've got a disability here. We're talking about people who don't have a disability, who there's nothing in inverted commas, there's no reason why they can't go for a walk or eat well or make good decisions or embrace new behaviors. I just think that it's difficult because people are so fucking predisposed to getting offended at anything.

Josh: It's interesting because it feels like in one regards people are overly sensitive, but at the other end people aren't feeling enough and actually listening to themselves. I find that that contrast is where we land with, with, with this stuff, is it's like, how do you, how do you oscillate between those two ideas? The listening to yourself um, and being sensitive, like, since it— like, do you see sensitivity as a strength or a weakness?

Craig: Um, I, I would probably use the term empathy. Like, I genuinely love people and I want to help. I love dudes, I love girls, I love— I should say men and women, I'll get in trouble for that. I love people, I love helping people to help themselves, but I also think love is not always about telling people they're awesome. Sometimes that's actually debilitating. Yeah, sometimes you're not awesome. Sometimes at the moment you're being a dickhead. Yeah, doesn't mean I don't love you, doesn't mean you can't do great things, doesn't mean you don't have amazing potential, but you're not being awesome. And by the way, you're not special. Yeah, you're just another human, just like I'm not special. Like, we, you know, there are some really kind of over-the-top warm fluffy messages that I, I believe do more harm than good. Because yes, we want to support and encourage and love people, but we also want them prepared for the messiness and the bullshit of life.

Josh: And so the idea of coercion and thinking about, I guess, even people's inability to not project themselves onto others. How, how do you then work on things like advice, or even say thinking about, thinking about what you're describing, which is like, you know, fucking, you want to kick some people up the ass and say you need a reality check, you're being too soft with this, or you're being overly sensitive. There's a— it's weird because I look at myself and see how I have blinders on half the time, or I'm not completely in tune with how I'm being, or, or, you know, not completely aware to a situation. And then I think, oh, you know what, maybe I've got that same blinders on for the people around me. Like, it seemed, you know, like it seems really clear when we see someone else and we see their problems, but maybe, correct, maybe they're not any more clear. Maybe we just have a greater ability to project onto others. And so then advice version versus coercion, uh, doing something that's, you know, going to help someone versus it's just actually projecting your own bullshit onto others.

Craig: Yeah, look, that's great. That's a great point. I think my question is, did they ask for for it?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Did they ask for it? What did you— do you want my feedback? Do you want my insight? Do you want my thoughts? If you don't, cool. Yeah, I'm not— I never give people advice that they haven't asked for. Never. I, I used to. Doesn't work. Even if it's the right advice, you know, or you believe it's the right advice, because that, like, you can't— you know, what's that saying? The student, you know, when the, the student's ready, the teacher will appear. The student has to be ready. Like, the person And like, people have given me advice over the years which was really good advice, and I was pissed off at them, and I was the problem. Yeah, they weren't the problem. They weren't doing anything wrong. I just wasn't ready, you know. And, and you have to be, um, ready to, you know, step into whatever it is— self-awareness, you know, self-acknowledgment, whatever.

Josh: Uh, when it comes to big changes, indecisiveness seems to be a common thing that, you know, we can— many people can relate to, whether they experience it or they have loved ones or friends that experience indecisiveness. How do you work through indecisiveness, and what do you think indecisiveness actually is?

Craig: Can I help you out? Indecision.

Josh: Indecision. Oh yeah, thank you.

Craig: You're making that way longer than you need to. Um, I think it's mainly about— that is a good question too. Our lack of willingness to get uncomfortable, because usually if we're indecisive, we are not making a decision about something that we probably should. We're avoiding a decision, or we're not taking action, or not committing to something that, you know, so we might be indecisive about going to the gym or joining the gym or giving up that thing or taking up that thing or whatever it is. Um, uh, and, and that is because, like, the dichotomy is— and you've heard me say this, Tommy, a million times— but on the one hand, we want to change. Like, most people, they want to be whatever— healthier, fitter, leaner, stronger, more balanced, more fulfilled, I don't know, more excited, more inspired, whatever it is. You know, most people, uh, if you, if you talk about them and their journey and where they're at and what they'd like to do, be, create in the next 1, 2, 5 years, they are things that they would like— positive change. But then to change, change requires change. Change of behavior, change of rules, change of operating system, change of habits, you know. And all of these things is, uh, all of these things is, all of these things are uncomfortable generally. So on the one hand, we want, we want the results of the, of the journey, but we don't necessarily want to get uncomfortable enough to, for long enough to create that Perfectionism too, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a little bit OCD with some things, a bit perfectionistic. Other things not so much. Like, I'm very— the stuff that, you know, like the stuff that I put out into the world, you know, like I can, I can put up something on— I can write a whiteboard. As you know, my Insta is Whiteboard Lessons, right? @whiteboardlessons. But I'll write something and it's 9.5 out of 10 on the whiteboard, then I'll rub it off and rewrite the whole lot because two of the letters are too close to the edge of the board, or— and no one would notice it but me, but I just, you know.

Tommy: You've got great handwriting. And you're a lefty, I forgot about that.

Craig: Yeah, my dad's an artist and I am naturally quite artistic. I had a screen printing business for a year when I was a kid. And so I used to literally design logos for people before computers were a thing. So I would hand-design logos and using all kinds of stuff that we used back in the day. Yeah, stencils and stuff that you use for what's called technical drawing or architecture or all those things where you use protractors and different kinds of, you know, tech drawing tools.

Tommy: Where's the creativity come out in a PhD?

Craig: There is very little.

Tommy: No, I thought so.

Craig: Very little. They don't give a shit about your creativity. They don't give a shit about your personality How much—

Tommy: I think, I think, think about life, it's not perfect. And the PhD process sounds like there's a lot of people who are needing it to be a version of perfect. How is that grounded in reality, like the, the one that most of us are experiencing, where perfect perfection isn't?

Craig: Well, they just want the science to be, uh, right, you know, so it has to be. And I understand it, I don't think it's a bad system. System at all. I think it's the right system, but it's like, you know, if you— if your mum's unwell, um, and my mum's been unwell a bunch of times, you, you don't want them having a stab in the dark when they're doing the surgery or when they're administering those drugs, or you want them to know exactly what, you know. And so that's science and that's research, and that's, you know, so— but it is, it— there's not it It, it, it's definitely not for everyone, you know, academia at that level. And it's, um, you know, it is very, it is very specific. And you have to— you, you're not going to go in there and change anything. It's the, the system is the system. You work within that. You learn the language, you learn the culture, you sit in your cubicle, you learn how to research, you learn how to write academically, you learn how to do science at a high level. You learn to become more efficient and effective. You learn to skim really well because every academic article is 30 pages.

Tommy: It's great, you know, it's crazy.

Craig: It's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's a commitment. That's all right, no one's making me do it.

Josh: Yeah, Harps. Oh, thank you, uh, for taking the time. Oh, boom, on your Friday night. Where's your Uh, he's in— he's here in half an hour.

Tommy: Yeah, about 9:30, 9:45.

Craig: All right, well, I'm heading straight to McDonald's. I'll be taking those cakes with me.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, we got some in the garage.

Craig: Congratulations, boys. It's amazing. You've done, uh, you've done great things and you continue to do great things. And Georgie, you've been a bloody boon for the team. You've been a blessing.

George: Oh, thank you, mate.

Craig: Probably the most valuable member, to be honest. But you know, you've got to keep these two blokes' egos in check.

Josh: Check. Yeah, and thank you to you, Harps, for all the support.

Tommy: It's so much support.

Craig: Yeah, pleasure. You guys are great. You're great. All right, everyone, love you guts.

Matt: I'm off.

Tommy: All right, mate, one more putt or no?

Craig: Nah, nah, no putts.

Tommy: You got one in. You got one in. Thanks, buddy.