Craig Harper On The Fitness Industry & Observing Thought

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 889.

Tommy: Craig Harper, welcome back to The Daily Talk Show, mate.

Craig: It's a little bit like telly. You guys are getting a bit too fancy. I don't know what's going on. I'm sitting over here, put your head there, don't— oh, don't move that way because it's like reversed for you. And you know, I'm a dinosaur and I'm trying to figure it all out. And, uh, and everything just went off the screen and then these graphics came up like I'm doing Channel 10 again. And then there you two fucking bullheads are.

Josh: But you've done some good, good stuff when it comes to your— the technical feats of late. What's your biggest tech win? What's something that you're proud of that you've done technically?

Craig: Oh, Josh, I've been pivoting like a fucker, you know, pivoting, adapting, improvising, you know, all that. All the clichés, all the COVID clichés, I've been doing all of them. I mean, in all seriousness, I mean, the biggest obvious tech kind of switch for me has been from doing gigs to humans in rooms to gigs with humans on the other side of the camera. So that's been interesting. I've gone, Yeah, I'm doing, I think we've spoken about this before, but I'm now doing, you know, all my mentoring groups are online and all my, I'm doing lots of coaching or not too much one-on-one coaching, hardly any, but lots of speaking, lots of corporate, which I thought would dry up, but it's kind of coming back 'cause people are going, well, we either need to do it online or not at all. So still doing a fair bit of professional development stuff, I just did some stuff with the government, doing some stuff with, yeah, quite a lot of different companies and it's just a new model and in fact, I reckon in some ways it's better because there's just a lot of convenience around it because people can, you know, literally I'm doing some stuff with the Department of Education and I'm doing with some of the kind of leaders in there and obviously everybody's working remotely So I get people from 50 different households tuning in and people don't have to drive anywhere, people don't need to find a park, people don't need to factor in half an hour or 45 minutes each way, people don't have to worry about getting a ticket or paying. There's just a lot of convenience. I mean, it's not all ups but there are a lot of positives, I think. And it doesn't matter how much we jump up and down, it is what it is and we're not pretending that it's awesome but at the same time, we need to work with especially in Victoria, we need to work with what is. And what is right now is a whole bunch of rules and limitations, and that's where we sit.

Tommy: Do you think you're hearing more feedback, or just in terms of what, what your sessions are doing with individuals, based on it being digital and people having the ability to shoot you more emails or have time to respond to you after a workshop, you say, you know, with a, with a corporate business?

Craig: Yeah, look, what's happening is I've kind of, I've had to kill the emails a bit because I get too many emails. I was saying to someone before, I don't know about you guys, but, and this is gonna sound like I'm lying, I'm not lying. I get 50 people a day send me a video, 50 different videos and go, "Harps, you gotta watch this, it's awesome." I'm like, "Fuck your video, I don't have time." Just like they've gone down a YouTube rabbit hole and they're like, "This is great, I reckon Harps would like it." Yeah, yeah. Or 20 times a day I get, "You should get this bloke or this lady on your podcast." And they mean well, but you just can't open every door and every, you know, and I get, well, Melissa deals with most of them, but we get more than 500 emails a week asking for advice. And you just can't.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: You know, or someone like you guys probably who wants to be on the show or, and there's, it's not that you don't care, it's not that you're a good person, but yeah. So in the context of my corporate speaking, what I'm doing is I'm going, okay, this is a 90-minute session team. So I'm gonna ramble on for about 60. If you really need to ask me something, put up your little electronic hand, but better that you write a question and we're gonna do 30 minutes of Q&A at the end. So yeah, and you can make that Q&A as interactive as you want. I'm doing, I'm doing two mentoring groups at the moment, a Monday night and a Thursday night, which is an open to the public thing. And every, you know, every session I will talk about a topic, you know, where we might talk about, you know, mental toughness or resilience or decision-making or self-management or whatever component of the, you know, looking after me and my life Conundrum. And but at the end of that, I always put about 30 minutes aside so we can just have an interactive dialogue. And even with— because I do big groups of hundreds, like 300 to 500, which it's harder for the interactive, but I do small groups of 30 where actually people get in and answer each other's questions and go, hey, I went through a similar thing. This is what I did. So I actually didn't get many of those.

Tommy: And at that point, you've left, you're at dinner and it's actually just running itself at that point.

Craig: That is correct. I'm downstairs, Tom, getting chicken and broccoli because it's how I roll. I'm an excitement machine and I'm like, you kids just look after yourselves, I'm gonna eat some food.

Josh: Do you find it easy to switch off with doing everything, you know, from home and on the computer?

Craig: Well, what's interesting is I just did a podcast, literally finished 15 minutes before we started, with a guy called Grant Edwards who's an amazing dude. Don't you hate it when people say, "You should," but you should think about getting this guy on. He was a former commander of the Australian Federal Police and Australia's strongest man. But the beauty of that is, so I'm interviewing a dude in Queensland, we have an hour and a quarter conversation about fascinating shit. He's got an amazing life. I get off the phone to him, I go make myself a coffee, I eat a handful of almonds 'cause I'm an excitement machine, I cheque 3 emails and I come down here and now I'm chatting to you guys. I mean, it's very, very convenient. And so I like that. From a personal point of view and a sociological point of view, I wouldn't mind a cuddle or a hug or a fucking rousing chorus of kumbaya with another human or a coffee or I wouldn't mind touching somebody's face or something. But, you know, I'd touch yours.

Josh: Will Uber Eats let you do that?

Tommy: Would they let you do that if you ordered directly for a free pickup for a tip?

Craig: Well, when the dude bought my thing the other night, I tried to cuddle him in the bloody driveway, but he wasn't into it, which was very disappointing. So I'm in therapy for that as well.

Tommy: Recently I've been like, I took a couple of days off last week and the, you know, switching off is a challenge in itself. It takes effort to switch off. I feel like a lot of people are all or nothing. It's either, you know, you're running the gauntlet of social media, just, you know, looking out, just going hard, or you have to— or you have to delete. What are you? Are you all or nothing in life and also social media?

Craig: Um, I reckon I'm pretty— I I reckon I'm somewhere in the middle, but I will be honest and I will say I reckon I need to rein it in a little bit with social media because, I mean, you guys and myself, part of our business relies on social media, obviously. And so I can rationalise my 1 hour down the Facebook Instagram, Twitter, whatever rabbit hole and go, oh, you know, I need to do this because I need to stay connected. And but there's a lot of time where I'm just doing bullshit. So I need to be careful of that. But I am— one thing I'm pretty good at, and whether or not that's just through work or it's genetic inbuilt, is I'm pretty good at going from busy and chaotic to completely relaxed in 5 minutes. I don't get Generally, I don't get anxious about things. I don't overthink things. Yeah, so I'm pretty good at being very busy, and now I'm on my bed watching Ray Donovan, and it's 4 minutes later. And by the way, if you haven't watched Ray Donovan, everyone, get on board. You're missing out.

Josh: How do you empathise with your mates that are in the fitness industry that they've got gyms, all of a sudden they're unable to do the work. What do you say to them?

Craig: Yeah, I've been an advocate for this, I've spoken out a little bit, but it's just hard, isn't it? Because, well, one, I've got, of course, I've got ex-trainers of mine, people who worked for me. There's probably 30 gyms or PT studios around Melbourne that are people that worked for me at some stage or with me at some stage. Tony Doherty is one of my mates. You know, there's a gym just up the road from me, 100 metres away, called Sweatmaster. A young guy called Lee owns that. Arena Fitness, which is down the road from me, Paul Marasco, who used to work for me, owns that. Um, there's a guy called Brad and his wife Carly Cunningham who own the Fit Shop, that— friends of mine. Um, You know, my godson's parents own a gym in Kyabram. There's zero cases in Kyabram. They haven't been able to open for months. And these people are— I mean, and this is no news or revelation, so I don't want to bang on about the same stuff, but mentally and emotionally, these people are really struggling. And it's hard to stay up when there's no apparent light at the end of the tunnel. And I think what I reckon the Tony Dowdy did a really nice video about this and Peter Credlin got him on her show. And they kind of had a sit down with the government or some representatives and they said, "Well, what you need to do is get back to us with a little bit of a plan about how gyms would re—" and all the kind of taking into consideration all the issues. They got a whole team of people together, they created this amazing document. They presented it and basically got fresh air. So I understand the frustration around this. I understand the perceived fear of being in a gym as well. But, you know, I don't know, I find it— for example, I was talking to Russ, who owns a gym up in Kiabram, where there are zero cases. So his gym is about 8,000 square feet. Next door to his gym is a laundromat. Which is about 1/20th of the size, which is open for business and people are in and out of that all day, side by side, washing and drying their clothes. I'm not saying they shouldn't be. But right next door, literally next door in the 8,000 square feet, he can't have 10 people in there. And you just go, I get it and we can't go case by case, but it's really tough. And I mean, it's not just fitness, it's retail, it's cafes, it's restaurants, it's—

Josh: Are you a political guy? So many people. Do you get into politics? Not at all. And so, because that's what I find interesting is because like for people who aren't into politics or don't necessarily have sides, it's interesting watching people communicate about these issues, you know, because they're human issues, but they have— Obviously, they come from politics in a lot of cases.

Craig: Yeah, look, I think what the world doesn't need is Craig Harper getting on a bloody soapbox because there's just way too many people on way too many soapboxes. And I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm not judging them. For me, I understand the frustration, but I literally have people that follow me and I see their posts and their daily rants and I'm just, I get it, but I go, that's just not a great use of your time or energy because it's not doing anything. And I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying I would not do that. If, if, you know, somebody came out and said to me— somebody wrote on my timeline because I'm not speaking out about something, um, your silence is violence. I'm like, what? What? And, and I'm like, well, now what you're doing is you're judging me and you're pigeonholing me because I'm not doing what you want me to do. I'm not saying what you want me to say. So now you're trying to push me into a moral or an ethical or an obligatory corner where I'm gonna speak out on an issue that you want me to speak out on. Well, newsflash, that's called bullying. Now you're just bullying me because I'm not doing what you want. And it's, for me, social media is not the place to share political views and ideas. And I don't know that, for me anyway.

Josh: You've gotta tell a few people that 'cause that's, That is what Instagram and Facebook has become, don't you think?

Craig: I'm not saying people shouldn't do it at all. I'm saying for me, it doesn't interest me. It's like, for me, it would create more anxiety, it would create more depression, it would create less time in my day. And I don't think for what I have going on in my world that that is the best use of my time and energy. So I think a great question that we can all ask ourselves when we get up every day is, in terms of what I want to achieve today and do today based on who I am and my values and my goals and my beliefs and what matters to me, what's the best use of my time today? And that just helps, that just helps find clarity, helps with finding clarity around, okay, I can sit here for an hour going back and forth with this dude that disagrees with me. But a few things are gonna happen. One, he won't agree with me. Two, I won't agree with him. Three, we're both gonna waste a fuckload of time and energy. Four, I'm probably gonna go away and I'm gonna be a bit pissed off and anxious. And then I'm gonna look up, it's gonna be 5 o'clock. I'm gonna go, oh, well, that was a good use of my afternoon. You know, and this is about being conscious and aware of ourselves and our time and our energy.

Tommy: And so the friends of yours that have gyms, who's handling it in a way that you've seen as really productive or a great use of their time?

Craig: Okay, so there are a few. Look, most of them are having a crack, but Brad and Carly Cunningham, who own The Fit Shop, which is in, I think it's in Cheltenham. I know where it is, but I'm just wondering if that suburb is called Cheltenham. I'm pretty sure it is. It's just off Warrigal Road. They've really adapted amazingly. They've got an amazing online presence and they are just, as well as you can do in this situation, they are doing. Paul Marasco, a friend of mine who owns Arena Fitness in Bay Road, he's basically building an outdoor gym so that you can train people outdoors. Now you can train, I think it's a couple at a time. I think it's soon it's gonna go to 10. Everybody that I know is trying to do something, but it's still, you're still limited and it's still a compromise. And people have, I know people who they had a rent reduction and now the rent is back to full. So they're paying full rent once again, but they don't have essentially any income. And I know, I mean, my guesstimation would be that 20 to 30%, complete based on nothing except my gut, 20 to 30% of PT studios will go under.

Tommy: Well, I mean, you came in at a time when it was on fire. You were at the start of that flood where it was, you know, the PT studios open up were doing really well. And it's interesting seeing industries that do have the ebbs and flows, you know, photography in the early days was, you'd make a lot of money. And now the, you know, everyone's got a camera. Not everyone does high-end photography, but there's more photographers available now. So things are shifting.

Josh: You have to be, I guess you need to do something different and something that stands out. What is the, what's the difference in the standing out in 2020 from a fitness perspective, do you think, Harps?

Craig: That's a great question, and it is, Tommy, you're right. When I started, I was very lucky. I worked really hard, but also I was lucky because I had no competition, 'cause there were no trainers. I think everyone, every industry including fitness, Josh, we need a unique selling proposition, we need a point of difference, we need to go, look, there are a million trainers, there are a million gyms, there are a million PT studios, There are a million bloody CrossFit centers, there are a million outdoor boot camp, commando training, whatever you want to call it. There needs to be something that separates you because if we're talking about, firstly, if we're talking about an individual trainer, and I had this conversation with a trainer the other day, from the perspective of an individual trainer, what's good about being a trainer is you don't need a million clients. Think about this, the average hourly rate, give or take these days in Melbourne, is about $80. So if you're working 30 hours a week, now to me, 30 hours is a very part-time job and I'm sure 30 hours would be a very part-time job for you too. But 30 times $80 is $2,400 a week. That's $120,000 a year. That's not the worst gig, right? Now, if you're doing 30 hours a week, you probably need 10 or 12 clients who are doing 2 or 3 sessions and you need them to keep turning up. Now, if you're a good trainer, that ain't hard. You know, good trainers, the good trainers that I know, are booked out and they have a waiting list. So it's not so much like a lot of people go, yeah, but how do I get more people? Or how do I, what's the marketing? I go, be fucking awesome, the end. 'Cause if you're fucking awesome, people are gonna wanna be with you. It's not like, Oh, I've got the best dumbbells, kettlebells, tracksuit. I've got the best apps, I've got the best products, I've got the best marketing strategies, I've got the best fucking funnel, whatever a funnel is, you two know, right? But it's like, hey, from a fitness point of view, it's a human interactive experience. Now, if I go and train with Tommy, Tommy trained people for a long time, if I go to Tommy and one, Tommy's a good dude. He gives a shit about me. He's a good trainer. I enjoy my time with him. I'm getting some results. That's enough. I'll keep coming back unless he gives me a reason to not come back. I'm not going anywhere else because I have a relationship with this guy and it works. And by the way, I really like being with him.

Tommy: Yeah, I went to a relationship actually in, actually in a relationship. I mean, I had the niche of Albert Park mums down pat. And it worked for me.

Josh: You're having coffees at one point, you just, you like switching out session, like, uh, PT sessions just for Tommy.

Tommy: Let's just go for coffee. Oh, little carrot cake. That was at the back end of my career. But Craig, to be honest, I think my perspective now about what I'd need to do is so much greater than what I had in the moment of training people, like when that was my job. And so I could imagine there's a lot of trainers feeling frustration about not being able to work out their point of difference, which can be hard when you're so in it and you're trying to work out all these other problems, like how the fuck do I even get a client, or, you know, the first one, the first 10. And so I feel like, I mean, shifting careers at this point, there'd be a lot of people moving out, out of the fitness industry to pursue something a bit different. And, and I mean, you could look at this stuff, maybe it's a sign, maybe it's the time. How— I mean, for you, you've, I mean, you've been doing the same thing for 45 years. 45 years. You thought about a career shift?

Craig: I completely have not been doing the same thing 45 years. No, you think about generalizing, but you know, but what I mean is I've I've been a gym instructor, I've worked with elite sporting teams as a high performance coach, I've been a corporate speaker, I've been a TV presenter, I've been a radio host, I've been an author, I've been a podcaster, I've been a consultant for companies, I've been a university lecturer. I've done a million things and I think that's the thing is that as you, and whether or not it's you the podcaster or you the, gym instructor or PT, or you the photographer, as you evolve, so too will your role. And I think, and I completely get what you're saying, Tony, but what I reckon is the next thing for, and I've been saying this for 20 years, like my first book was called Fatitude, which was essentially a book about the psychot— terrible title, I acknowledge, terrible title. But it was about the psychology of getting in shape. In other words, it was a book saying that that changing your body is largely not about your body. Now, I think that this is the next, like this is the evolution for personal training, is to go beyond that where it's not just about sets and reps and progressive overload and energy systems and anatomy and physiology and all those things I've said before, and nutrition and biomechanics, all of those things really matter. But it's now where I'm not just working with bodies, I'm working with humans that live in bodies. And that's the kind of, If we can start to bring together the people in the fitness industry, can start to go, look, this is a multidimensional process, it is not just physical. But that takes real skill and knowledge and study and understanding. And that's different to, oh, I just did a 15-week course, I'm a trainer now. Like, this is where we need to go deep. And when you can become the person that can work with people, not just bodies, that is, you can work with the anatomy, psychology, physiology, emotion, behavior, decision-making, you know, planning, structure, process, accountability, all of the totality of the experience, then you make yourself invaluable. Because what people need more than a personal trainer per se is a big picture coach.

Tommy: That's what I think. I mean, you've been saying that since I've met you. Like, I remember we weren't friends, I'd come and see you speak and you'd say that same thing. You were on to it back then. It makes a lot more— I mean, that is— that a perspective before the, the industry was flooded and you still had that same perspective? It's only just coming true more so now at the time where we're needing to shift or bring more value. It's, uh, yeah, yeah, you're right.

Craig: And I think what's happening is now we're understanding, especially now with mental health coming to the fore We're looking at health in a bigger way. We used to think health was how far can you run, how high can you jump, how low is your heart rate, what's your blood pressure, show us your six-pack. That was kind of analogous to the typical represent— Oh, he's healthy or she's fit or whatever it is. And of course, that's part of it. That will always be part of it. But we know many people who are physically fit, but mentally and emotionally really struggling. And so, and not that we're pretending that personal trainers are psychologists or doctors, of course not. But what it just means is having a bigger picture process than just sets and reps and carbs and protein.

Josh: You hear with osteos or different sort of health professionals, the idea is that you're not meant to go there forever. They're going to do some work and then you transition to a point where you can have a normal life where you're not having to go to these medical, you know, or health professionals all the time. From a PT perspective, is it a different thing? Do you look at sort of the life cycle of a customer and say, okay, after 6 weeks you shouldn't need one, or what's the deal?

Craig: That's a really good question. Now, from a business perspective, Tommy will tell you, you want them forever. You know, if we were being amoral and unethical, we want to create a dependency problem. We don't really, but, hang on, where am I? I'm getting myself, sorry, I'm out of shot. But my goal was always to, help people become independent and self-sustaining. Because when I do that, I'm teaching them and coaching them and empowering them to make great decisions and build habits and behaviours that are sustainable and that are going to work for them. And so I'm definitely not the solution or the answer over the long term. I'm a resource in the short-ish term, and that could be 3 months, that could be 3 weeks, or at times it might be 3 years. But look, if somebody gets to the point where they know what to do, they're inspired, they're educated, they have a good operating system, but they still choose to train with a trainer, well, that's fine. That's fine. It's just I don't think anyone needs to stay with a trainer for years. But if people want that option because one, they can afford it, and two, they're more productive, and three, they really enjoy that, they like having that time out with that person that they know well, to go through that process, then it doesn't have to be something that has a use-by date.

Josh: So how do you make sure that it doesn't become stale? What can PTs do so that after the 6 weeks or as their client starts to plateau, what can you do to inject a longer-term strategy?

Craig: So one of the things, I mean, there's no absolute for that, but one of the things that I used to do with a lot of my clients was I would work in 28-day blocks. Blocks. And so every 28 days we would hit the pause button and we would do an assessment. Every 28 days they would keep their diary, we would set KPIs or goals for the next 28-day block, we would sit down, we would review, we would literally have a meeting every 28 days and go, cool, this is what we've done in the last 4 weeks, how are you feeling, what do you think about this, what do you think about that. And I would give them my, basically my review of their performance, and I'd say your diet's been 7 out of 10, "you're getting stronger, which is really good. You're not having enough sleep. Everything's good. Your flexibility's rubbish. I'd like to work on your flexibility or make that a little bit of a focus for the next 28 days, da da da da." So what you're doing is you're turning what can be a very stop-starty, peaks and troughs emotional process. Remember that when it comes to food and exercise and people's body, they're very emotional, or a lot of people are very emotional. So what we want to do is try and turn down the emotion and turn up the strategy and logic so that we create a— what I'm interested in is creating an operating system, a behavioural system, a blueprint around health, wellness, fitness, food, sleep, lifestyle that works for people over the long term. And so sometimes chunking it into 28-day blocks is good because it creates continuity. But it's also what I like about that number is it seems to be long enough to get results but short enough to stay a little bit excited and focused.

Tommy: And then you get to stop and then go, well, let's go again. So you have that new focus. That's right.

Craig: And I think that's one of the things with not just with training but with business, with relationships, with life. I think it's really good to take a stocktake every— you know, even with Melissa and I, even with our show, with our podcast, which is definitely not as good as the Daily Talk Show. But we have meetings on a regular basis and go, what do you think about who we're getting on, numbers, how we're going, how long should the show be, what's too long, what's too short? Because when you're in the middle of it, you know, The E-Myth is a famous book by a guy called Gerber who talks about the concept of, and I might have mentioned it once before here, where you can't work on the business and in the business. So It's good to be able to hit the pause button a bit and step back a little and try and find the level of perspective about what's going on right now. And I think that, you know, having a process and whatever your passion or drive or emotion is, is great. But then to be able to wrap some strategy around that and to have a moment in time, whether it's in your business or your podcast or your fitness journey, where you're regularly stopping and doing some kind of objective review or assessment to evaluate efficacy of the programme or the process is a really good thing to do because it's so easy to wake up in a minute and go, I just fucking went in circles for 2 years. And that's what so many people do with so much of their life.

Tommy: I mean, it can be challenging when it isn't yet working. And so the emotion involved in your approach is much higher. For you, think back to a time when you felt like it wasn't working just yet, and was that there? Was that there? Did you have this perspective to say, I gotta stop to look?

Craig: Oh no, no, no, I definitely not. I mean, there were times where I wanted to throw the glow mesh in the shag pile and fucking stamp my feet, and I did.

Tommy: Sorry, can you explain that metaphor with the glow mesh?

Craig: What's that? Well, do you— you guys way too young. Back in the old days, the ladies used to have purses made of glow mesh, which was like this. Do you know what glow mesh is? No, it's like— oh my God, you two, is it like chain?

Tommy: My mum had one, I think.

Craig: It's— yes, yes, like mediaeval time sort of stuff. Oh, kind of. Just Google glow mesh purse, you'll see one. All our All our 50-year-old ladies are going, I fucking know exactly. Yeah, Mum had one.

Tommy: Oh my God, I love feeling this thing. You'd like move it one way, you could like run your fingers through it.

Josh: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig: So, and, and, and the shag pile of course being the, uh, carpet of the day, which was long hairy kind of carpet. Yeah. So the, so the throwing the glow mesh in the shag pile is analogous to spitting the dummy.

Josh: I still don't get it, but I love the purse. But I— so the idea is that you're throwing a purse that has a lot of hard bits.

Craig: Okay, so look at it as cracking the shits, Josh.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I get the cracking the shit. I understand the— like, you've cracked it and you've thrown the thing. I'm just not sure on the, the cut, the texture of the cut, like what the carpet and the purse are doing together, but we don't need to get bogged down.

Craig: Can I just say you're overthinking this?

Josh: Look, I am on Google Images and I think, yeah, I think you're right. So, what was the question again? Where were we? Well, you'd thrown in the towel.

Tommy: Where are we? You'd spat the dummy.

Craig: Oh, no, Tommy was just talking about when I've done things that didn't work. And there's been many times where you do things and you go, "Fuck, I put a lot of time and effort and I'm getting next to no results." And so that's a normal part of, you know, that happens with weight loss, that happens with business, that happens with academia. I spent the first 2 and a half months of my PhD on a certain topic, which was motivation, and I got 10 or 12 weeks into the journey and I just went, "This is not gonna work because there are too many variables and there's too much conflict." And so I spent 3 months working hard and researching hard and then completely scrapped all of it and started literally 3 months in. I restarted my PhD with a completely unrelated topic. And so where was the conflict?

Josh: I mean, where was the conflict with it?

Craig: Well, there was— I mean, see, when I talk about motivation and when we talk about motivation generally in society, when you talk about weight loss and fitness and transformation, You go, you know, motivation's a really important, plays a really important role. And generally when we talk about motivation, we're talking about that emotional state. He is motivated, she is motivated. I heard Josh and Tommy on the podcast and I got motivated, I got inspired, I'm pumped, I'm in the zone, I'm excited. So that generally the common kind of understanding is, that motivation is an emotional state that we get into. But in the literature, motivation is pretty much interchangeable with the word reason. So when they talk about motivation, his motivation for going to work was to earn money to pay bills to support his family or her family or whatever the case. That's really interchangeable with his reason or her reason for going to work was to blah blah blah. And so I spent so much time trying to get people to understand what type of motivation I was talking about that there was a real kind of definition problem. And I thought, I'm going to spend half of my 3.5-year full-time PhD process trying to explain to people what this term is. So what did you change it to? I changed it to a thing called external self-awareness, which is essentially you understanding the you experience. Tommy's probably been bored to death with this, but that's your ability to be able to understand Josh, what it's like being around Josh for other people. And so, and, and the point of this is when I can understand what it's like being around me, not from a point of view of insecurity or self-loathing or paranoia or ego, but rather just self-awareness, when I understand what it's like being around me for others, then I can create better connection. I can, I can have better conversations. I can resolve conflict easily and hopefully have less conflict and solve problems and be a better part of a team and all of those things. So it's, it's called external self-awareness, and it's under a very big umbrella of different self-awareness constructs. Self-awareness can be public, private, it can be internal, external. But yeah, essentially if you go, what's it like being around me? I call it the you experience. That's pretty much the study of my, the focus of my PhD.

Josh: Can you identify self-awareness when you're speaking to someone? What's the sign of someone that's self-aware versus not?

Craig: That's good. So there are lots of what we call correlates, things that relate to that, one of the strongest correlates with self-awareness is emotional intelligence. And so you might find someone who will pick up something mid-conversation or mid-experience or mid-situation where they correct themselves or pick themselves up or say, "Oh, I'm sorry, that sounded egotistical, I didn't mean that," or, "Sorry, I didn't mean that." They might say something that they think in the moment, or that could be construed as hurtful or insulting, and so they'll correct themselves or apologize, or they'll realise that they're talking too much, and so they'll regulate their behaviour to talk less and listen more and be more present and more attentive. So self-awareness is really in-the-moment awareness of my emotions and my feelings and my behaviours and the appropriateness of how I am in this moment with others.

Tommy: Craig, have you heard of Locke Kelly, who's a meditation teacher? Um, he's written a bunch of books and, and he dives deep into the awareness. And, and from what I have gathered from listening to his talks is the, the, the awareness that's beyond the thinking. So it's the thought that I am self-aware because I understand my flaws or whatever it be, but then that layer beyond the thinking level of awareness, the experience of awareness.

Craig: And yeah, that's where you become— you're going—

Tommy: sorry, the, the deep level of comfort, living in the state of awareness versus the thought of awareness. I think he calls it like the, um, you know, that self-awareness is like protection, custody. Uh, you understand what's happening in your head and you're thinking about it all, but then there's a place beyond it. It's, um, he's fa— yeah, it's really fascinating. Sounds like exactly what you're diving deep into.

Josh: But it also seems interesting, Harps, what you're describing is like a level of communication as well to the self-awareness. Do you find that external self-awareness and communication skills are intertwined?

Craig: Yes. So let me just— I'm going to come back to that in one sec. Just quickly on yours, Tommy. So in a lot of philosophy and a lot of Eastern kind of teaching, in Buddhism, this is very much a thing. And also just perchance in the writings of Eckhart Tolle and lots of other spiritual teachers. And you would have heard this term. They talk about being the observer of your thoughts. Right, so it's having an awareness of thought where you're not trapped in your own thought, but it's almost like from the outside looking in, you are aware of how you are thinking. And there's, there's a, there's a construct that's close to this in psychology which is called metacognition. Metacognition is thinking about thinking. Um, yeah, so it's, it is really, and that's where we start to step out of the chaotic mind and into stillness and consciousness. And that's very much in the meditation space.

Josh: Um, sorry, Josh, what did you ask me? Yeah, communication. Like, I think it was interesting how what you're talking about there is not just the awareness in the moment of saying, I'm feeling this way, or I've cut that person off, or whatever it is. It's also about communicating it. So the, the idea of external self-awareness and communication skills? What's sort of the— what's the connection between those two?

Craig: Okay, I'll give you— yeah, that's a great question. So I'll give you a really easy example. So I got asked to do a big— a gig for a really big private company, and the guy happened to be a guy— this is not giving away too much— who owned the company. His assistant kind of head of staff coordinator, you know, uh, lady who was amazing. She— I did all the back and forth with her. We had a conference, there was about 700 people at this conference, um, and I was doing a full day with them. And going in, I was told, okay, so here are the— every company briefs me on what— why they're bringing me in. And they would bring him in for just a lot of general kind of let's get a bit pumped and excited and let's talk about inspiration and outcomes and high performance and communication and all that normal stuff. But our challenges are there are a few kind of cultural issues and the energy is not always great and there's a few kind of— there's a bit of disconnection between some of the staff and there are a few, you know, all this kind of stuff. And they— the boss, the big boss who I hadn't met or spoken to, he wanted to meet with me on the day. So I started speaking at about 9. He wanted to meet with me at 8 and give me a brief of what he thought needed to happen. I'm like, no problems. So I go to this venue and I meet with him in this little office— uh, not a little office, an office— and we're chatting. And within about I would say 1 minute, I went, oh, I found the problem, everyone. It's up here in this office, right? Because this dude was— he, he had very, very little awareness of what he was like. He was quite belligerent, he was quite rude, he was quite passive-aggressive, he was really judgmental. He had very little emotional intelligence or awareness. He seemed to, and this sounds a bit judgy on my part, but this was my assessment, very little empathy and honestly seemed to care primarily about the business and the bottom line. And like his staff are really just a necessary kind of part. And I'm like, dude. And anyway, so we're talking, he's telling me about, you know, they're ungrateful, they're this, they're that. It doesn't matter what I do, they bitch and they need to understand how good they have it. And I'm like, fucking hell. Anyway, so he goes through this whole monologue and then I go, cool. And he goes, what do you think? I go, yeah, sure. I go, I want to ask you something. And he looks at me like, well, you can't ask me anything. And I go, what do you think it's like being around you? Oh, and he goes, what? He goes, what? I go, what do you think it's like being around you? He goes, "What do you mean?" I go, "Do you think people like being around you?" And he was fucked off. And I said, I'm gonna tell you, and I said in a nice way, if I do this or don't, I don't, you know, I said, "You're paying me lots to be here. I'm gonna tell you that you are intimidating. I'm sure you're a good dude and you're smart. You've built this amazing company, well done." but I'm not intimidated by you, but people would be intimidated by you. And what I'm telling you now, people don't tell you because they're scared. And I said, having a business or a team of people who do what they're told or comply because they're intimidated or scared, I go, that is gonna breed a terrible culture. And I said, you need to understand that the way that you see things is only you. And he was pretty upset and we went round in circles. I said, look, I'm not saying you're a bad person, you're not a bad person. I said, but what you don't understand is anyone else's perspective other than your own. I said, you need to understand what it's like being around you so that you can create connection with people. You don't even need to agree with everyone, of course, you know, but you need to understand people. And if you're gonna be a leader, If you're going to be in any position where you've got hundreds of personalities and human beings and emotions and storeys and backgrounds that work with you and for you, and you don't have any compassion or understanding, you think everyone who doesn't think like you is wrong. I go, that's a problem.

Tommy: What's your heart rate at that point? What do you reckon you're running? 120?

Craig: Look, I kind of thought he's probably going to tell me— he didn't tell me to fuck off. But anyway, at the end of the day, he called me in and he said, 'Talk to me a little bit more about that.' And I said, 'Look.' And he didn't really— he wasn't a bad person at all. He just didn't have any awareness of anyone else's feelings or any insight. Like, it was— this sounds weird— almost like a sociopath. Not a bad human, just no empathy. And the funny thing is I don't know how accurate these stats are, but take them with a grain of salt. But I've heard it a few times that about 3% of the population are sociopaths, not psychopaths, sociopaths. That is, so psychopaths tend to take pleasure in other people's pain. We're not talking about that. But sociopaths just seem to have— they're very self-interested and they seem to have very little awareness about anyone else's perspective or emotions or feelings. Now, my vague research tells me that about 3% of the population, so 3 in 100, are a bit sociopathic. But also what we know is that about 20% of CEOs are sociopaths, right? So a lot of them are highly effective at doing business and they're highly intelligent. Quite often they're creative and quite often they're charismatic. But they don't always care about people. And this is the thing, is the challenge is when you're in a lead— we've gone all over the shop today, haven't we? But when you're in that position of leadership where you've got a bunch of humans who are part of your reality, of course we need strategy, we need planning, we need KPIs, we need accountability, we need processes, and we need hard work and all that stuff. But you also need a captain of the ship, be that male or female, that understands people and cares. And this isn't always the case.

Josh: Yeah, the, um, what you're describing there is sort of influence as well, because you need to be influential in life. You need a level of self-awareness. You need to understand what is it that the people that I'm speaking to right now are seeking. What do they need? What have you learned about influence over the years?

Craig: Yeah, that's a very insightful question. So me, my job is communication and as is your job in many ways, is just talking to people about stuff. And you know, there's a— my biggest project is me, my biggest problem is me. And so I've been very, probably to my own detriment at times, but very self-critical. And I've always said to people, you can't criticise me as much as I criticise me, so do your best. So I don't have a high opinion of me, but I've always been aware that I'm constantly— if you're in front of an audience, whether that's a podcast audience or a corporate audience in a room or a radio audience or whatever, if you're in front of any audience, you're being evaluated and judged. Doesn't matter if you don't like that. That's what's happening because evaluating and judging people is unavoidable. We all do it every time we walk down the street. When somebody walks towards us based on their appearance, we'll be making some kind of judgment. That doesn't mean we're bad people, but if it's a dodgy-looking guy who's 6'5" in a trench coat who looks like— who looks a bit terrifying, there's a fair chance we're not going to make eye contact, there's a fair chance we might even cross the road. If it's a couple of teenage girls who are looking at their phone, just stumbling down the street, or just chatting happily, or whatever, fair chance we're not going to be worried or intimidated. And it's not that we're trying to judge anyone, it's just that this is part of the human experience. And so I realised that, you know, early on when I started lecturing VicFit courses 100 years ago, so people who wanted to become gym instructors, one of the common bits of feedback that I got And they would fill out evaluation forms and feedback forms at the end was, you know, there was some good stuff. Craig knows his stuff. He's a bit funny, he's a good storyteller, you know, blah, all that stuff. But the negative that I often got was Craig's intimidating. And I'm like, but I'm like fucking Humphrey B. Bear. I'm the friendliest person in the world. How could people be intimidated? And at first I went, well, that's just someone who's precious, fuck 'em, right? Which in itself is an intimidating response. And then I realized, oh, okay. Because it's not about— see, here's the thing. It's not about the intention. It's about the other person's experience. So that's why, for example, subjective reality. So I could have 5 people in front of me and I'm coaching 5 people. And what I think I'm giving those 5 people in this moment in time is insight and direction and positive feedback and a bit of wisdom and whatever, that's what I think I'm giving them, that's my intention, but what those people might be getting, in inverted commas, is judgement and negativity and criticism and a whole bunch of negative stuff based on what they think is going on. Because you gotta remember, and this is going deep too, But you gotta remember that, like even now, if you guys have, I know you have thousands of people that listen to your show, but let's just pick a number. Let's go 5,000 people listen to this conversation, right? So 5,000 people is 5,000 egos, 5,000 personalities, 5,000 programs. Everybody's been programmed, 5 different beliefs, 5,000 different sets of beliefs. And so everyone brings all of that to every moment in time. And so I'm always looking at every conversation or every interaction or every experience in my life through the window of my values and beliefs and understanding. And so, yeah, it's really important that, that we are self-aware enough to know this is not the truth, this is just my version of the truth, this is not absolute, this is just what I think is absolute.

Josh: How do you empathise with 5,000 different stories? Like, obviously there's like cognitive overload at that point. How do you distil it to a point where you can move forward and communicate?

Craig: So one, I don't think there's a single answer to that, but one of the things that I do constantly is I constantly put in a disclaimer when I'm teaching and sharing and I'm coaching a lot of people. And I say, I'm gonna share my thoughts and ideas and experiences and strategies that I believe are pretty broadly relevant. However, I'm not telling you individually to do anything. That's your responsibility, right? I can't connect optimally with 5,000 humans because everybody responds differently. But what I can do is say, look, I'm gonna tell you what, based on my, 35 years of, 40 years of working with humans, all different bodies and shapes and sizes and personalities and backgrounds and, and reasons for showing up. I'm going to tell you what I've learned. I'm going to tell you what I believe to be true, or broadly true. I'm going to tell you what I understand. I'm going to tell you what I think. I'm going to tell you what worked for me and some of the people that I worked with. And then if in the middle of that you find what you think is some wisdom or truth, then take that for a test drive and then see how that goes for you. Because I can't take responsibility for people's outcomes, only my own.

Tommy: And so when it's— when you're not connecting with people and you're just getting into it, you're getting into, you know, the similar game to what you're in, is it that what you're saying isn't working or you're not interpreting what people are experiencing when they're around you? Like, what have you picked up from knowing what works when speaking to large amounts of people?

Craig: Yeah, um, so for me it's very much about knowing and being comfortable with the idea that I could be wrong and being transparent about that. And being, well, especially in Australia, Australian audiences do not like arrogance. They do not like, Australian audiences are, and this is gonna sound funny coming from me, but they're not massive fans of self-help or personal development. They're not bad, but it's not like the States. I've spoken in the States maybe 50 times and it's a different dynamic, it's a different energy, it's a different population. They're very, very receptive and Australians have become more receptive over the years, but you've just got to be aware that you're not going to connect with everyone, you're not going to resonate with everyone. And so for me, I go, look, all I can do is be honest and genuine. And if you like me and I resonate, great. If I don't and you don't like me, I don't resonate with you, great. There's lots of other people and I mean that respectfully. So unfollow me, don't listen to me, don't buy my book, books, don't come to my workshops, it's all okay. There are lots of other awesome people out there that you will connect with. So just, you know, let's not spend too much time wasting or wasted on trying to connect with every person. I still get, I mean, I still get a mix of messages that range from, you're fucking amazing, you changed my life, which I haven't changed anyone's life by the way, through to, you're a fucking idiot, how did you even get this? You know, and everything. I don't know if I told you this, but I literally had a phone call— not a phone call, an email from a guy who said, I want to put you in a— said, I want to put you in a military plane and fly you over an active volcano and drop you in it. Very specific, very detailed. Yeah, I'm like, wow, wow, he must me in the military. But anyway, fair to say, wasn't a big fan. I'm like, all right, dear Brian, thanks for your feedback, all the best.

Josh: I think the thing is, like, uh, with you, Harps, is you are what's, what's on the, on the packaging. You are what's, you know, on the, on the box. And so I think that that's what's great, is it's clear, it's, it's with all the fucks, like, it's very obvious what you're communicating. I think that that's why you're able to build such an engaged audience is because there's the, the what you communicate out there, what's on the, you know, on the COVID of the book, and then what's in the content, what's on the podcast. It's very consistent. I feel like that's the, that's the, the aim of the game.

Craig: I think, I think not being gift-like. I, I'm very upfront about my mediocrity. And you know, I wasn't— I'm not genetically gifted. I wasn't a brilliant student. I'm technically, technologically inept. I'm not amazing at anything, and I'm completely okay with that because— but I've worked with amazing people, and I've worked with gifted people, and I've worked with genetic freaks, and I've worked with the spectrum of humanity. But me being mediocre has really kept me working hard and it's kept me grounded because I don't get ahead of myself because I don't have a big opinion of myself. But what I have discovered in the last few years is the more real and raw and vulnerable I am with people publicly, where I go, yeah, I do that too, I'm— yep, and not in a false, a false way, but in a Yep, I overthink sometimes too. Uh, yep, I make bad decisions sometimes. That's my ego going for a run. Sometimes I'm defensive when I shouldn't be. Sometimes I make shit decisions and then make excuses for my shit decisions. Some, you know, all of those very human things. When you talk about your flaws and faults in a real way and you go Yeah, look, I'm helping people and I've got some thoughts and ideas that might potentially serve you. But at the same time, I don't have my shit together. Just thought you should know. Some people are like, oh, thank God for that. Somebody that's— because people relate to you. Like, I had a lady on recently who again might be nice for you guys to have a chat with. Her name is Dr. Jodie Richardson, and her specialty is working with people with mental health issues, specifically anxiety, anxiety, depression, but a lot around anxiety, which is obviously a very big conversation right now. But what's fascinating is that she's written books, she's a speaker, she's a specialist, she's got a PhD, and she suffers from chronic anxiety disorder, and she's medicated, and she takes medication every day for her anxiety. And understanding how anxiety works doesn't take the anxiety away. So, and what I love about her is here's this person who's intelligent and educated and passionate and articulate, but also has her own big struggle. And so it has double the impact. It's not just some person talking from some academic or theoretical construct. It's like, Okay, well, here's the theory, here's the idea, here are some strategies, but by the way, this is how I live and operate too. And as soon as you open that door on authenticity, of authenticity, I think there's much greater connection. Yeah, it makes sense.

Josh: The other thing that I've found of late is when you're not feeling good, you're feeling down or you're feeling anxious, there's a need or a desire to understand what it is, like to pinpoint Like, my girlfriend Bri will be like, oh, what do you think it is? And I had an answer the other day where I was like, I think I'm just like, uh, chemically a little bit imbalanced today. And it was just like, I felt like it was a great way of communicating. It's like, I don't actually— like, there's probably nothing. Like, nothing's happened between the time I went to bed and the time I woke up, so it's all a little bit fucked up. We don't know what it is, but like I'm gonna, you know, go for a walk and drink some water and look after myself and I'll feel better. And, um, yeah, there's— I think the, the more we are communicating and sharing our stories, the more we're able to not only normalise these things but empower people to, uh, be, be self-aware. Like, I think it comes back to the self-awareness piece. In a lot of ways, being able to say, oh no, I'm not feeling— I'm actually not feeling good right now. 100%.

Craig: And there's often— we don't— that's quite an interesting thing you said, Josh, because, you know, we are basically chemical-making machines. Like, we— our body is always producing chemicals, hormones, whatever you want to call them. You know, we run on chemicals and Sometimes there's something going on with our endocrine system or our nervous system or your endocrine system, your nervous system, your cardiovascular system, your respiratory system, everything's intertwined all the time. Even your cognition. If you have a thought, which is a thought based on something negative, then you're all of a sudden, if you go, "Oh, fuck, I'm in danger," and you're not actually in danger at all, but you have that thought, all of a sudden there's a bunch of chemicals running around your body just because you had a thought. So, and that's the thing is that I still believe the biggest challenge apart from in first world countries anyway, I think the biggest overall challenge is to be able to manage our mind because your mind is essentially the platform, you know, on an interpersonal level and a personal level. Think about like, where do your choices, your behaviors, your words, your stories, your— the way that you process the world around you, the way that you act and interact, all of that comes from the mind. You're not accidentally eating cake. You're not accidentally telling someone to get fucked. You're not accidentally staying in bed, or you're not accidentally going to the gym and training. These are all byproducts of choices.

Tommy: And there's a version of understanding that the thinking stuff is in some respects out of our control. Like when some of the meditation I do is like, have a thought about something, and then why did you think of that something? You didn't choose to think of that something, it just floated in like a cloud into your, your mind and you're able to observe it. And so when you're lying in bed and you're all of a sudden thinking about shit that's making you anxious, it's like, fuck, at that point, how much ownership over that thought that flew in do I even have? And so I think you're right.

Josh: It's like, is it management though, TJ? Like, I wonder if it— like, because the management has this idea that you can sort of pull these levers and sort of control the, the ship that is our brain.

Tommy: Um, there's strategies of, strategies of when it does happen, then you can start acting upon, you know, moving it, like you said, moving your body, all those tactics that help shift it. But if we're handing over that it's, well, I'm actually— there's a whole bunch I will cannot control because you can't control what you think. Your thinking is happening regardless of whether you're choosing or not. Not choosing.

Craig: You're right, Tommy. So there's conscious thinking and unconscious thoughts. So one of my— one of the kind of mantras in this space is that thinking happens because of you and thinking happens despite you, right? And Dr. Joe Dispenza, who you've both probably heard of, he bangs on all the time about, you know, the fact that we have 70,000 thoughts a day and 95% of those thoughts that we had, we had yesterday. And there's, you know, some of the thoughts that we all have, those thoughts where you go, where did that come from? Like, how is that even in my mind? You know, where you go, this is— I don't even think like that. Like, why would I? You know, some of the dreams that you have, you're like, where does that come from? But, and that's it. That's where you go, you know, and that's part of the thing that you're talking about before with meditation, Tommy, is recognizing, okay, Here's a thought. This is a little analogy I give to some of my students and clients. I go, "So think about this," and this sounds weird, but go with me. So let's say that your mind is like a service station. It's like a petrol station. And then into that petrol station, there's nothing there. It's all clear. A car pulls in, and that car is a thought. And you're just standing off to the side at this petrol station, and you see that car pull in. That's a thought pulling into your mind, and you right now, you're the observer of that car/thought. Now you can walk over and you can open the door and you can jump into that and you can become one with it. Now you and it are connected, and now you're heading off together on this journey. Or you can stay back, watch the car pull in, and then watch it pull out in a minute or two and just see it drive away. Where you haven't connected, you haven't become, you haven't jumped into it. And this is what, this happens all the time in our mind where crazy shit slides in. You go, oh, that's weird. I don't know where that comes from. Okay, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go down some cognitive rabbit hole for the next 3 hours about that. I'm just gonna go, okay, Craig, you're a piece of shit. Am I though? Oh well, whatever. All right, well, Or I can ruminate on that for the next half hour where I don't need to. And this is where we start to step out of just the unconscious craziness of incessant thought and into the consciousness of meditation and awareness and stillness and recognition of thought as being not me. So thoughts are not me. I think. But I am not the thought. The thought is just a theoretical construct that has no power at all unless I give it power.

Josh: The car is compelling though, isn't it? Like, there are moments where, like, there's something— like, if you get me on the right day or whatever, like, the entering into the negativity and even knowing, like, having the awareness to know, hey, I know that this isn't, uh, productive but I'm going to bitch about this person where I know that I'm being part of the problem. Or I'm just like, I even have to say it to Bree. I'm like, hey, I know that I'm being completely unreasonable. And but can I just, I'm just going to bitch about this thing because it's like, it feels like it. And it doesn't, you don't even feel good after it, but it's something that you feel like you need to get into the car.

Craig: I feel like if that car that pulls into your brain is a Tesla, you're going to go jump in it, Josh.

Josh: Yeah, definitely. And sometimes the negative thoughts or the, you know, it's like if it's a stat, like maybe it's that ego depletion, you know, the idea that we only have a certain amount of willpower in a day. And so, it's like I think that sometimes maybe it's the willpower's gone. Or you've dealt, you're tired or whatever it is that you— it's like, you know what, like I can't, you know, I need willpower to be able to not turn that way. You look at like social media, it's like we— negativity screams louder than positivity in this world. When we see a negative comment on through email, we feel like we need a response, yet we get, you know, dozens of emails saying that that they love something. So it's, it's, it's interesting how our minds gravitate towards negativity.

Craig: And I think this brings us back full circle almost to the discussion of, or the idea of, self-awareness. And that is you recognising how you respond to different things. And even down to, you know, sometimes where there's like this, this kind of overload or exhaustion where We get to the point, it's 4 o'clock in the afternoon, I've been banging since 8 and I'm hard at it and now I'm running into a physical and an emotional and a mental kind of brick wall. And that is part of self-awareness where you go, I know that between, like you guys, if we had time, we could go, when are you the most productive? And you're gonna go, well, for me, between 7 AM and da da da, or you might go, you know what, between 9 PM and 2, I'm a fucking killer, right? But for someone else, that isn't the case. And this is knowing how you work. Like, it's only in the last 6 months that I've realised that for me, not eating lunch works way better than eating lunch. Because I used to get this overwhelm of tiredness and fatigue at about 3 or 4 every day. I'm like, well, it must be 'cause I'm getting older, but I don't drink, I don't smoke, I eat well, I sleep well, I'm fit as fuck, I'm like, eh. So I just started manipulating with the one last variable, and I stopped actually when COVID started, 'cause I'm moving less because of the situation that I'm in. And as soon as I removed lunch, so I eat breakfast, and by the way, this is not a recommendation, anyone, or a prescription, this is just what works for me. But I went, right, now I eat breakfast and now I eat dinner. I eat nothing else.

Josh: What about a little bit something sweet? Yeah, no, no. A little something sweet?

Craig: No, you're 4-year-old, no. Piece of fruit? I just, for me, my brain works better when I'm not eating through the day. My cognitive function is, and right now my brain is super important because of my my study and my work. And so any, any kind of cognitive advantage I can get, I want. And but not only— and the funny thing is that now that I do that, I'm never hungry. I'm not. I eat breakfast at 7, 7:30. I have absolutely zero hunger ever till 4 or 4:30.

Josh: Is it a food thing, or do you think is it the actual food, or is it the— you've taken it from 70,000 decisions a day to 40,000 because you're not thinking about when am I going to have my lunch or what am I going to eat? Like, do you think it's actually the fuel that you put in or is it the psychological impact of not having to worry about the food for you?

Craig: No, for me it's 100% physiological. My body and my brain, 'cause obviously your brain is an organ, It's physical, it's a physiological thing. And for me, it's just, I just feel my energy, my concentration, my memory, my ability to connect and communicate. So if we had have done this podcast a year ago, I'd be hitting a bit of a cognitive wall about now. But yeah, for me it's just, but that's just learning about your body. And I honestly believe, I might have said this once before to you guys, but I reckon we should all spend our lives or some of our lives, you know, doing trial and error on ourselves. Like, what works for me? What works best for me? And that could be everything from what works best for me in terms of relationships to career, to food, to sleep, to hydration, to Do I like working in nature? Do I like working indoors? Do I— We all try to find the best operating system that works optimally for us. And it's like I realised when I was 18, 19, 20 years old, I'm not gonna have a boss for very long 'cause I'm not good at having a job and a boss. I wasn't lazy and I wanted to work, and so I haven't had a boss since I was 26, which was 31 years ago. Again, all of this is about self-awareness and, you know, self-regulation, self-management.

Josh: I've dropped lunch, dropped lunch. I'm doubling down just to check, see how my body goes. Yeah, with a double lunch, and then I'll take one out every day or so.

Craig: I reckon you have a really interesting relationship with food, Josh, like me. I reckon there's so many. One day we're going to do a whole episode just on you and your reading, and we're going to do a deep dive, and I think there'll be tears.

Josh: Yeah, definitely, mate. There already is. Congratulations on the YouProject. I know over the last 6 months you've had a crazy amount of growth, and it's awesome to see you really getting into the platform and giving people what they need in the podcasting space. It's been awesome.

Craig: Well, I appreciate you boys, and I've been listening to you guys recently quite a lot. And I'm not just saying this because we're here. I was thinking, why do I like listening to you two and your guests? It's just very— do you know what? Your podcast is just really easy to listen to. Like, I can do other shit and just have you guys in my ears, and it's kind of a good vibe. And there's, you know, there's, that's not many. There are sometimes I want to listen to a podcast where, okay, this is, we're talking about neuroscience or we're going deep, but it's like work. But for you guys, it's kind of like, and you won't understand this because you're too young, but it's kind of like watching Gilligan's Island. Just, uh, it's just, it's just easy. It's you and your glow mesh purse just listening to this, just watching a bit of Gilligan's Fucking you blokes, you blokes. It's not all about, buddy, not all about iPhone, iPhone 32, you know.

Josh: We're definitely gonna get you, you should actually do the YouProject Glow Mesh purses. I'm sure you could get them made for guests.

Tommy: I reckon my mum still has one.

Craig: I'm gonna get it out, get it out of there. Can somebody send these boys some information on Glow Mesh because they definitely need it.

Josh: Was there anything else outside of purses? What else did they make? Like, what did they use the material for?

Craig: Uh, there were dresses made out of glow mesh. It was a fashion thing for a long time. Also a fashion thing for a long time, which you boys missed, was, um, you would have seen corduroy, cord pants, right? Which were— they were the shit. But cord pants 2.0, are you ready? It's called Jumbo Cord, and it was just really thick, called Jumbo Cords when they came out. Oh dude, Google Jumbo Cords, which was ironic. Uh, I'm gonna go '75, '76. See if you can, uh, see if you can find something in the Jumbo Cords pants.

Josh: I mean, they also did, um, because they were typically vertical, weren't they? But I think that some brands were doing horizontal corduroy as well. That was— that's ridiculous. That's—

Craig: I tell you, I tell you what else was a thing back in the day too. I know we've got to end, but platform shoes for dudes, we called them Beetle Crushers back in the day. So they'd have literally like a, a 3.5-inch heel at the back and then a platform at the front about an inch and a half. So, yeah, they wouldn't share. Do you have any photos?

Josh: Do you have any photos? I was saying the other day, like, there's— the fashion was better.

Craig: You guys, yeah, you guys missed out on all the awesome. Just— but it was just like equal parts ridiculous and awesome. What about gym wear?

Josh: What were they like? What were you wearing when you would go to the gym?

Craig: Great question. Do you guys remember a rapper called MC Hammer? Yes. So MC, he wore parachute pants, you know, hammer time. He— well, okay, so they were the thing in the '90s. Harps used to— now these, looking back, fucking terrible. I used to get around in MC Hammer pants, right? The cutoff windcheater, of course, with the neck cut out. Yeah, um, there's the string singlets that Tom used to get around when he was stripping.

Tommy: Um, Craig, what's that jacket that you have in your— I saw it once when I was at your joint. You brought out this jacket that's old school. It's almost like a it's almost like a varsity jacket, like a— remember they were bodybuilding? Yeah, you're like gifted to you, didn't it?

Josh: Wasn't it an Everlast brand? Was that the leather one that you got for the photo shoot, or like in that big factory somewhere?

Craig: So that might be— so I did a, I did a, I did a project for Everlast where we developed a, um, uh, a group exercise concept which was going to be the next big thing. But literally 2 months after we finished and filmed and wrapped up Everlast went into— or Pac Brands, who owned Everlast, I think went into receivership in Australia. And anyway, it was all messy, but the bottom line was I did this thing where I spent months developing this thing for them, and it was a group exercise thing based on MMA. And we did this full-day video shoot in this warehouse in South Melbourne with a cast of thousands. And I was kind of the guy that developed the program. And at the end, they did this award, and they'd made 100 jackets globally, 100 jackets out of leather, and they had this little metal plate, and they were numbered 1 to 100. And I think— I forget who it was, but maybe Michael— no, it wasn't Michael Jordan, but it was a very, very, very famous NBA basketballer got jacket number 1, um, and they were leather like bomber jackets, um, and they were never sold. There was just 100 made, yeah. And I got given jacket number 100. So yeah, that was—

Josh: that's cool. Do you ever wear it? Do you ever go out?

Craig: I never wear it. No, I never get it framed.

Tommy: Let's get it some glass.

Josh: Or can we at least— can you do an episode wearing it? Like we all wear our sort of like— it could be a leather. Yeah.

Craig: I'll wear some chest pads. I reckon, well, I weigh about 83 kilos now, 84, 83 kilos. I reckon I need to be about 100 to fill that out. Probably fit Tommy. Tommy's a bit bigger than me these days, which I hate to admit, but it's probably going to fit him better than me.

Josh: Great. I'd love to see that. Awesome, Harps. We'll put the U Project details in the show notes so people can go and listen to your podcast. How many episodes are you doing now? I feel like you're smashing out those.

Craig: I just actually put on Tiff, you guys know Tiff Cook, I think, or Tommy, you know Tiff Cook. So, Tiff's doing 1 or 2 episodes a week now. She just did her first one today, so I'm trying to not kill Melissa. So, I want to do 5 a week, but it's, as you guys understand, it's It's pretty, it's a steep load. But yeah, so we're doing 4 a week minimum, some weeks 5. But yeah, we're just, this Saturday will be episode number 300. So we're way behind you guys, but we're still cranking them out.

Tommy: We'll catch up, mate, catch up. It's been great to have you on. Thanks, Harps.

Craig: Love you, Harps. Thanks for having me.

Josh: It's the Daily Talk Show. We'll see you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.