Vulnerability

Josh: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 855.

Tommy: What is happening, Gronks? What's going on? How are we?

Josh: How are you, Josh? I am good, mate. I've downloaded the new iOS 14.

Tommy: It hasn't started yet? It hasn't—

Josh: Well, I like literally, it's just, it's at the point where it's saying hola and, you know, hey. So how do you say it?

Tommy: What language are you going to choose? Maybe go on an adventure today. Go.

Josh: That's Go Cantonese. It's a real pain, I think, to like to then try and work your way back. I know my brother did that as a bit of a joke to someone and it's a bit of a pain in the ass. No.

Tommy: That is so annoying because then you'd have to look up some sort of like step-by-step YouTube explainer video about how to exactly get it out of Cantonese.

Josh: Well, I woke up at 3:00 AM. Why? And I went to bed really, really early. Uh, like, I want to look— I'll tell you why in a second, but I went to bed around 7.

Tommy: Wow, that's like legit sleep by 7 or in, in bed by 7?

Josh: In bed by 7. So, okay, yeah, no, when I woke up at 3, there was a junkie screaming outside, fucking hell, and I just looked up. I didn't bother, um, calling triple zero, but I was checking to see if the— because it was when Apple was releasing the update, and I saw I was just there refreshing, refreshing, refreshing, then just went to bed and did it in the morning.

Tommy: Okay, and so this won't be pushed automatically, or you have to go and get it?

Josh: No, it will be pushed, but if you're impatient, you'll, um, if you just go into General and then click up, like in Settings, General, Updates, yeah, you'll see it there.

Tommy: Okay, how annoyed would you be if I woke up and it was already on my phone? Would you be cut?

Josh: No, no, I mean, running it for a long time, him and Grace Oh, why? We're also in public beta. So, there's a time where anyone can test it if they want. But I'm just like, I've done enough public betas in my life. I just don't need the bullshit because you're a guinea pig. I don't want to.

Tommy: Okay. So, I want to go back. Why 7 PM, 9 nights?

Josh: So, yeah. So, it's— I didn't know whether I was going to bring it up or not. Well, but I will. I will.

Tommy: So, you can't not now.

Josh: I know. So I had, uh, I was going to go for a walk. Yes, at about, uh, around 6. So I was in bed about 7:30, 6. Okay. Before then, about an hour before that, I, uh, took 3 magnesium, right? I don't know where this is going. No, I don't know if you do. And so I took I took 3 magnesium. Why? Because I just like feeling sore all over, right? And from what I've seen, like they recommend 2 at a time, but I went 3. I was just like, you know, if 2 is good, 3 is better. And so, uh, it's not how it works. And so, yeah, no, but that's what I did because I wanted to feel looser and all that sort of thing. Yeah, went on the walk, sitting on our couch And, uh, I push out what I believe to be a fart, and I, I projectile diarrhea.

Tommy: Oh no. And so you're blaming the magnesium?

Josh: What else can you do? Who else do you— but obviously, well, you know how much fucking tension there is with keeping the couch clean.

Tommy: Oh no, what were you, nude? What were you wearing?

Josh: Shorts. Okay, and so it's one of those things where it's— if I had to say, uh-oh. And then I get up and then like Bree's eyes like widen up and I'm just like going to get like paper towel and stuff. And then—

Tommy: Oh no, dude! Oh no! Like, you hung your head in shame and you walked to the bus.

Josh: But you don't hear poo storeys the next day. This is, this is courage. This is—

Tommy: If there's vulnerability in 2020, it's Josh Janson right now.

Josh: So then I'm like, fucking washing my shorts in the basin in the bathroom thing and then having a shower. And then I just said to Bree, I'm like, she was making smoothies. I'm like, I don't feel like a smoothie. I'm just gonna go to bed.

Tommy: Oh no. And so the thing about our couch that we have, the bottom cushions, the ones you sit your bum on, you can't take them off. They're fixed to the couch. And so you can't just undo the the outer layer. And so what, what's going on?

Josh: It was all fine, it was all fine. But the thing, the fucked up bit about it is like when you do something like that, you want to control the whole supply chain around. Like, I'm doing, I'm fixing all of this, right? Just breathe. And she refused to let— she thought I was going to fuck the couch by just going too hard with it.

Tommy: Yes, yes.

Josh: And so I was in the shower while she was dealing with the couch. Um, and so Anyway, it's, uh, have you spoken to Bree since? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I was— it put me in a real depression. I was just like, you know what, this is just— this really sums up what's just happening at the moment. It's just like— and so I just, yeah, went into bed and I was, you know, it's not good. So yes, I was like, yeah, like, how would you feel I don't know.

Tommy: You can either go two ways. You're laughing about it. Well, I did.

Josh: I like, like you laugh like I did, but it's not like a laugh like, haha, that's funny. Look what I did to the couch. It's, oh goodness.

Tommy: Oh, shit.

Josh: Yeah, I really— That's the meaning of it. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so, anyway—

Tommy: Well, you know, you gotta like, yeah, sure. I tell the storey of when I was 18 and shat myself right before I went onto a party boat.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it was a nightmare. But I mean, you're in the company of—

Josh: In lockdown, like in just iso, not doing anything. If anything, like you should be able to go to the— Like it definitely made me gun-shy. Like because, yeah, I blame the magnesium. I think that the— Like because I mean, when you get to 30, you sort of understand how your body works and something was a bit tweaked. And I think it must have been the magnesium.

Tommy: I'm trying to take in— so I've just looked up, there's this site called healthline.com and it says how to make yourself poop. And number 5 is take an osmotic. Osmotic laxatives work slightly different than stimulant laxatives. They're designed to help move fluid through the colon and Magnesium hydroxide is one of those, or magnesium citrate. Is the packet— is it one of those?

Josh: No, no, it's just mega— I don't know, it's Mega Magnesium is the brand.

Tommy: But, uh, it was a mega experience, wasn't it? Yeah. You have had no— how about drop the magnesium, dude, and investigate why you feel like shit all over your body? Because you had the— you had the Working that boner issue. Yeah, you had the, the poop issue. Yeah, I mean, this is the human experience, isn't it?

Josh: It's, uh, but how are you doing?

Tommy: Wow. Well, on this day 7 years ago, I met Amy Hucker, my wife.

Josh: Oh, that's cool.

Tommy: You know, take you back to, um, to Bali.

Josh: And did you have Bali belly on that trip?

Tommy: Did it? When I got back, actually, I felt a bit funny.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: But it's probably just the amount of beers I drank. Yeah. And just, you know, I don't know if I don't necessarily think I was eating well. You have your nice sort of Indonesian food, but then you're eating mainly, what is it? The, what are those sandwiches with like turkey?

Josh: Club sandwich?

Tommy: Club sandwich, chicken, lettuce, what is it? Under bacon, chicken. There's something, did you know that?

Josh: Yeah, like it's like a BLTs and all that sort of thing.

Tommy: Club meaning, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chicken, lettuce, under bacon, I'm pretty sure that's what it stands for. I was blown away when I found that out, to be honest.

Josh: And so was this, how do you know, was this day, do you have it in the calendar or what's the deal?

Tommy: Well, my, so it's great because my brother and his wife always post about their wedding anniversary, which was the day before Amy and I met. And so Amy said to me last night, happy anniversary for tomorrow. And I shat myself. I'm like, not like JJ.

Josh: No, no, no, it's gonna get real relatable.

Tommy: I had a moment where I was like, oh my God, it's our wedding anniversary, fuck. Like, I don't know, I just freaked. And then she said, it's, um, anniversary of when we met. I said, oh I kind of just then at that point was off it because I was like, you know, when you like think you've done something wrong, then you're like, ah, I see what you— and then I turn it on her. Look what she made me feel. But that's a true marriage at that point, 7 years in, you say, you know, it's making you do that. No, no, but, um, it was lovely. It was lovely. Never expected to meet, um, you know, someone like Amy that, uh, that would, uh Changed my life.

Josh: Potato Head, is that the first time you met? Was it in Potato Head?

Tommy: Yeah, Potato Head. No, Potato Head, that is correct. A day club that do some great margaritas, awesome burgers. I think I had both. So not great margaritas, just great cocktails, full stop. Anyway, so, um, I did that, did that. Yeah, so that was great. But I mean, it was, um, I mean, how times change. 7 years forward. Would you think that you're getting up early in a pandemic trying to go down for a little coffee with your son and Amy's at home just, you know, resting in bed and Bodhi and I are having a little, you know, babyccino and coffee?

Josh: Well, I mean, it's nice that you've got a bit of a routine. I did, even though about like there was the incident last night, the actual walk was great. The beforehand walk, getting out and about. I think that definitely, like, think about when I, um, was doing Alone Outside, photos every single day, getting into a routine. There is something nice about having that.

Tommy: 100%. Routines are great.

Josh: You forget it, don't you think? Like, I reckon for— there's probably a lot of people who just have given up on any form of routine based on things changing so much. So, there's—

Tommy: it's a little bit like— Yeah, I don't think it's on purpose either. Like, I think it's a, a product of a new thrust into a new routine of working from home, and so you then quickly adapt bad habits or habits that aren't serving you. It's, um, I was thinking this morning of like, what is something that you want to drop or not do Usually I think that for you, and I'll think about it for myself, but what do you not want to do anymore? Like, I think that's a powerful way of looking at identifying. It's probably, you could then look into those things and say, okay, what is it within that that isn't serving you?

Josh: Do you want to go through the list? Just to pick one?

Tommy: No, I think you could go a list and then we can sort of dive into one. I think there's a classic, there's the classic I think when you, when you feel like what you're saying, you've lost the routine of your past that was working for you, you feel like you want to shake things up. Like if you've got too much in your house, you feel like you want to pull everything out of your house and just have nothing in your room other than a mattress and then start from there. But I think that's the drastic approach to trying to fix the feeling. And so, you know, it's like Exercise. You should be, should be doing that every day.

Josh: Well, it's not something that you— so that's something you want to start doing. Okay, this sort of thing is interesting. Okay, like, because there's heaps of things you want to start doing.

Tommy: Yeah, great.

Josh: Stopping feels like maybe a little bit easier. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So stopping.

Josh: So yeah, what do you want to stop doing?

Tommy: Um, well, uh, definitely Uh, like sugar, stop it.

Josh: Okay. Yeah.

Tommy: Hey, hey, Tommy, stop it.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You see how it's, uh, you just want a little something after dinner, don't you? You just— and you're just getting that habit of routines, like it's time for sugar, it's time.

Josh: Oh, it's so bad. Yeah, no, I definitely— I was going to say eat after dinner, like stop stopping eating after dinner. Oh yeah, the sugar one. Fixes that because it normally is something sweet. So I think that the, um, I mean, the quitting sugar thing, do you think that, that, you know, on the spectrum of cutting things out and diets and stuff like that, do you think it feels like there's, um, it's not very socially acceptable to cut anything out unless you've got some form of allergy. From a sugar perspective, do you think on the, on the spectrum it's probably pretty acceptable, do you think, in 2020?

Tommy: To cut sugar out?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely, definitely, because I guess sugar's seen as the enemy. It's, uh, there's no one out there, you know, really beating the drum for sugar, saying, mate, this is— you know, you look at protein, if you look at your macros and you've got your, uh, you know, people out there saying yep for fats, yep for protein, but there's no one out there saying yep for— I mean, there is carbs, but specifically sugar. And how that relates to cows, but no one's beating the drum for sugar, mate.

Josh: So is it food for you as well? What else do you want to stop doing? 'Cause I know what you want to start doing. You want to do your boxing and your—

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Beautiful granary out there. Is that a hedge?

Tommy: Yeah. No, oh, behind me, I forgot. Yeah, that's a big hedge. Like a big tree at our entrance. And so you can come up some steps and you're sort of covered. It's really nice. What else is there? Okay. Okay. Now I've got it.

Josh: Have you put a TV in the lounge now or is it in the bedroom?

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. TV's in the lounge.

Josh: That's great.

Tommy: Are you going to have a TV in the lounge? This is it. This is it. Okay. Stopping watching things at night. There you go.

Josh: When are you going to watch?

Tommy: That's a good one.

Josh: During the day?

Tommy: Well, weeknights. Let's go weeknights. Other than family movie night.

Josh: What do you want to do?

Tommy: Well, instead of watching stuff.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Uh, there could be exercise. You could easily implement that, start getting out and about, like moving. Like, you just find— that's the time, right? There's time spent watching 60 Minutes a night of some kind of show. Real trap. And I think I've probably given myself a bit of a, you know, uh, I've let go a little. Not like you last night, but, um, in terms of like watching— my, my saying was no series. Absolutely no series, because when you've— when you— it's a trap. You next minute you're— you're—

Josh: so why do they make series? Why do they make them?

Tommy: Um, for vulnerable people that get sucked in. No, it's escapism. I love it. The thing is, I love, I love movies, I love series, but I don't think just because you love something means you need to give that thing to yourself. Otherwise, you'd— all of life's pleasures, you would fucking just succumb to, and you'd be living this indulgent life that is driven by your senses.

Josh: Well, I've been thinking about audio. I listen to a lot of podcasts, audiobooks. I think an easy rule is if I'm going to listen to something, I need to be moving. I need to be either on the bike or walking.

Tommy: Great.

Josh: 'Cause there's so much time where I'm like laying on the couch listening to something. Love that. It just seems like a missed opportunity.

Tommy: Yeah. I reckon there's also a stopping of work at a certain time. I do say that and then also think there is a version that allows me to do work at random times. Because like for instance, today Bodhi's in bed with Amy watching a movie because otherwise he'd be running around and smashing shit out here. And then we have a meeting at 11:00, and so there's a period of time between then where I should, you know, I need to help Amy while we're at home. And then, you know, Amy has study to do because she's sort of let that drop because she's been taking a bunch of the load with the move. And then I can pick up work at sort of random times, like I was up this morning at 6:30 doing some editing for an hour. And so you gotta, like, I'm trying— if you are going to be flexible, you then just need to come in and out. But then coming in and out isn't necessarily what I want my approach to be, but it's the only option to get shit done, right?

Josh: Well, flexibility I think can be a trap. And the, um, there is— I mean, there's— the thing is that we're always wanting to project the perfect way that we want to do this. Ideally, it would be great to do deep work, not using your phone, doing all of these sorts of things. But why Why do we keep doing it? There's like, there's obviously some societal parts in it as well.

Tommy: Which one? Doing— well, I think like work.

Josh: Well, yeah, just, yeah, doing work at different times. There's the, like, we have deadlines, and so then it's like, okay, well, I've got to do it. It's, um, I do it in the evening because I can't do it at, you know, early in the morning, or vice versa.

Tommy: Um, And so the other thing is, um, you say last night I had a feeling while Bodhi was behind me, and I think this stuff is like hyper-trigger trickery. Having a child triggers all these moments of perspective because you're like, oh, I'm being a piece of shit because I'm not giving him any attention. And then when he come over, comes over and says, Daddy, will you play with me? It's like in his cute little— can't say with, you know, he said whis. Will you play with me? And it's like, oh my God, that breaks my heart. I gotta go play with him. Of course I do. But then you will realise that— you realise that, um, you— you realise that the sporadic work can cause this sort of bleed, bleed effect where even when you are like about to have dinner, you're at the computer, especially working from home. I think this is unique to home Yeah, because I didn't— well, I wasn't in a habit of being at the office, coming home, and continuing my work on the computer in front of him. It's, it's like that, uh, the, the effect of everyone being in the same building. But Bodhi is going back to daycare, uh, on the 28th. So what are we, the 16th today? So there's 2 more weeks at home. Yeah, 17. So 2 more weeks and then he goes back to daycare and we'll be obviously still working at home.

Josh: And so how does that— what do you think about when you think about him going back?

Tommy: Oh, there's just the time to be able to just, you know, use the day where he's not home as the time to get my shit done. And then when he gets home, that's when you should be tools down. And being able to be a parent at that point.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, multitasking is always hard. I think that that's the— It's like what you were talking about yesterday, just do it, just reactive doing stuff. It's— What's funny is that like we know these things, we know that we always feel good when we write the list and we like tick things off and we actually, you know, make the call we need to or clean out our emails or all this sort of stuff, but it's just, especially at the moment. I think there's just so much resistance. And I think like the ultimate is, you know, like I think about my birthday, how I got to just do whatever I wanted, right? Just fucking eat whatever. And I didn't feel that good afterwards.

Tommy: But look at you Wednesday night, mate.

Josh: Look what happens. I know, exactly. But I mean, this is the thing. It's the thing that we want doesn't necessarily make us happy, if that makes it like, so it's like the result of eating shit food and all of that sort of thing, like you're not going to feel good in like a few hours' time. So, it's like robbing, you know, robbing your future for your present type of thing, you know.

Tommy: It's prolonging, so, it's pleasure that then puts you into some sort of pain. And so, I mean, this is where I've thought about the stopping stuff. So like the alcohol thing, right? Last night I said to Amy when we were in Coles, I said, I was just like, oh, I just felt a bit anxious. I was like, oh mate, tell you what, I could just dive into a fucking cheese board and a bottle of wine with you right now.

Josh: Were you 15? Oh, so were you sort of—

Tommy: It was followed by, but I'm an alcoholic and I can't do it. I'm not an alcoholic, I don't think so, but I just know that you won't feel like the cheese. Oh yeah, yeah, I'll feel amazing as soon as fucking that dirty piece of brie hits my— that rotten piece of brie hits my lips. And, um, and then I guzzle down some sort of fermented grapes, but come tomorrow, I think what is more rewarding is the feeling of I've sustained again, like I haven't done it.

Josh: And so, do you feel better now because you, like I'm just always curious as to what, like even for myself, just trying to work out like what are the things that are going to actually make the difference? It's that like— Tiny Habits stuff, like BJ Fogg's book, which we had in the book club at the start of the year. It's like, yeah, these things are like so small. It's things like, oh, what time am I waking up and what are the— what's the first thing I'm going to do when I wake up? Whereas like, I feel like at the moment it's a little bit— I mean, I love doing this show because this show, like, even last night after my incident, I was like, can't be fucked doing the show. Like, it'd be really nice to have someone just to handball it to and say, hey, can you do it? And there is that, like I said this morning, like I thought this last night for— yeah, yeah, I'm just like, I can't be fucked doing this tomorrow.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, but I think that that's— yeah, like it is the small things.

Tommy: Yeah. And so the pain of thinking about doing it— so let me just work this out. So when I used to do those red carpets, you know, so I had this big dream of like fucking being this TV host presenter. And I was like, oh, I would love to be on the red carpet. And then I was like, every time it came to being on the red carpet, the thing that I thought I wanted the most and like, oh, this is gonna be great. I was feeling a bit shit. I felt a bit sick. I was nervous. I felt crap. Like it wasn't a good experience. But then I pushed through and it was like the moment that you are in the car on the way home feeling just like, you know, a bit euphoric of, you know, when you're tired or you've been on your feet for a while and you get the opportunity to sit down and you're like, oh, this feels good. And so it was the on the way home bit that's the best.

Josh: That always happens, isn't it? Like that's across every, like Bree says this every time we go to a party. Because it's like, beforehand I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I can't be fucked. And then it's like, I go, I have a great time. And then we're like, oh yeah, that was fun. Glad we did this. And then like, say we have another party, Bree says, remember you had a great time last time at that other party? And I'm like, it was a lot of work. Like, I was sort of putting it on. Like, I don't know if I was having as much fun as I sort of was making out.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, the, the discipline to not do things. I just looked up what— so discipline says discipline brings stability and structure into a person's life. So, um, if there were no discipline, people would do whatever they want and make mistakes without putting the consideration of others first and foremost. It promotes good human behaviour to better society and make it more enjoyable place for everyone to live. But in terms of— so I would see discipline being acted upon is when you are able to not do something. So we're talking about cutting the thing. And there is like, you look at these sort of insane characters like David Goggins, you know, extreme, like—

Josh: Well, we love, but we idolise or respect people who are disciplined. Yeah. And they're—

Tommy: but also high status to be disciplined.

Josh: High status. Mason was on the phone, he's like, mate, you and your status.

Tommy: I know, and I think, I think after that conversation, I think I would be one side of a lot of people who wouldn't quite get it because there's this— you live in this paradigm that's hyperthink— hyper cerebral about your existence, meaning your interactions with people, where everything sits, how it all fits, and that's your unique approach to life that I absolutely fucking love. And so it's not for everyone, but it's also not for everyone. Yeah.

Josh: And but also like it is, I think that there's something a bit arrogant as well about being like, oh, this is what it is. Like it does. There is an element I think that makes it feel like it's some sort of big game that I'm like fucking facilitating.

Tommy: Puppeteering.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: Which is not the person walking around talking about how self-aware they are.

Josh: It's like, exactly.

Tommy: You've become self-aware. Aware to a level that you've lost self-awareness.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: You're like, because there's another level. And so, no, I get it.

Josh: It's like, why do we do what we do? I think is the big question that I wonder. So the thing is, I know that, like, you know, I envisage, you know, for me it's like, okay, uh, you know, I don't feel great at the moment. I've like, you know, let myself go.

Tommy: But what percentage you have? What percentage?

Josh: As in, uh, fat percentage?

Tommy: No, I get that you went there, but I just— I wasn't meaning that. I was just meaning a percentage check-in.

Josh: Okay. Oh, in general, um, and then followed by body fat. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I reckon, um, it's so hard to tell. I reckon, like, I— the— I think a lot of people can, um, relate to this. You have 5 different percentages throughout the day. It changes all the time. And the other thing too is it's like I caught myself. I feel like, you know, when people say like, how are you? And it's like, it seems a bit disingenuous when you're always like, oh yeah, I'm good. I like tried it out. I don't know how I feel about it, but like I had a meeting with a client and like, oh, how are you? I was like, oh good. I was like, actually, I'm like not feeling that great. But it was just like, I was just like, actually, I can't, I'm not doing this again. Like, I tested it out. I was like, oh, I don't, that's really annoying because what are they meant to do with that info? And also I was just like, all of it, like, they're not my psychologist, it's just a client, it's just a client meeting, do you know what I mean?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, like, I'm all for sort of sharing your feelings, but, um, maybe come to me next time when I, when I ask you, and rather than you saying Good.

Josh: Well, I just feel that the reason I did it was because I'm like, oh, maybe, like, I have moments of, am I projecting how I'm feeling onto other people? So, I'll have moments where I'm like, oh, people aren't vibing me today, or like, I feel like a bit of pushback from a lot of people. I'm like, oh, maybe I'm projecting off something. Maybe I'm like different and I don't realise I'm being different. And so, part of it was, it was like the start of a meeting. It's like, okay, I'm going to say this thing. I'm going to say I'm not feeling great. So maybe they realize, oh, like, oh, Josh has been a bit fucking weird, or it's like being a bit different, it like makes more sense.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. Appreciate that. I think, um, I mean, what's the other opportunity in those situations? It's, it's not like suck it up and fucking get through it. It's like, I wonder how it— there, there is a— so you're having a level of awareness around you you're feeling. And so what's another opportunity? This is what I had a crack at. I was like, I could be pretty negative right now, but like, how can I just sort of fucking smile and get into it? And I feel better. I felt better about it, and I knew I was a better version of myself. And so there's a— there's a—

Josh: which point is it then that a positive thing versus the, you know, the toxic masculinity or whatever, of like, I think you're okay, don't cry, just fucking always, yeah, nothing can ever be wrong.

Tommy: Yeah, I don't think there's, I don't think there's just one or the other.

Josh: I think, I think both truths are right, right? Because like, I think that that works, like you being able to potentially in this overly sensitive world, it's like, I feel for, uh, people who are feeling like they are a minority or are a minority or dealing with these things because it's like That's a lot of negativity that you also have to hold. And it's like a lot of like, if you feel like you are in that position, I feel like it can be a harder journey than showing up and smiling and like doing the best that you can do within a system that's not necessarily fair.

Tommy: Of course. But there was— So, Sam Harris. My meditation teacher, you know, personal, we have a relationship together. Anyway, he says quite often, today just burn 10% brighter. And so with every interaction you have, try and burn 10% brighter. And so that's like whether it be with a waiter or someone you meet, or, you know, because everyone is swimming in a sea of that same experience. We're all at a, you know, a level. We're all in our unique sea that's sort of got its different chop going on. And so there is the version of having people that you should talk to. And so what we're talking about is with clients and trying that.

Josh: Is it—

Tommy: I, I appreciate it.

Josh: What's the how? Like, it's just like, especially when you are— we do really creative work. And we're also like giving a bit of ourselves in a moment. And so I wonder what the, what the, the time is to, within a team context or within, you know, like having that conversation around, like if you're going to give all of your creativity and your thoughts, being able to be like, uh, feeling a bit off today, but, but maybe it's like, maybe it's about setting the intention, feeling a bit off, but I'm excited about this conversation and getting the most out of this.

Tommy: Um, yeah, I mean, God, there is also the, the internal team that you could probably be more transparent through. I guess it's like when you get on a plane, you don't want to hear from that, you don't want to hear, you don't want to hear from the pilot that he doesn't feel great today. Yeah, he's going to fly the plane. So you could see our service offering client-facing is us fronting up like the pilot. And it's not about being toxic and suppressive in our emotive states, but definitely you need that support system around you. And so if you don't have people, maybe say it to a client if that's your— if it isn't that, if you feel comfortable.

Josh: Isn't that the whole point, that it's like, you know, like if we look at community, I guess the thing is like responsibility, like everyone's got their own thing. Like, I wonder in that moment it's an opportunity to create an extra level of connectedness of like, oh, like, they're probably feeling shit too. Like, everyone's not feeling great, right? And so if we're all faking this, ah, fucking yeah, 10% brighter, I completely get that.

Tommy: But it's not even faking. You don't need to fake 10% brighter. You can feel 10% brighter. And so the point being in the lesson is that there is versions of— we have choice in what we're feeling even when we're in horrible situations.

Josh: Because this is always the challenge. I think that this is where it becomes challenging, like what I was saying before, right? Like, it's not always a choice. So like, and that's— I think this, especially when it's— when we're talking chemical imbalances, mental health, all that sort of thing, some people's like they would love to feel. And so they can't, they can't even fathom that next step. I don't think that— I rarely get to, to that point. I think that you can always, you know, going for a walk, doing these things, they seem very superficial. And for someone that's got extreme mental health stuff, not that, um, productive potentially. But yeah, yeah, no, I, I agree. I think that you can Uh, if mindset is one tool that we use as a way of shifting how we feel, why would we discredit it? Or why would we say, oh no, but not for them? Like, everyone, you should fucking give it a go.

Tommy: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this, it could change everything, or it might not change anything. Yeah, could make you feel worse, could make you feel better. I don't think What did it make you feel when you said it?

Josh: And then the response was like, no, it was, it was, they were really nice. They're like, oh no, I completely get it, blah blah. But I was just thinking in the moment, I was thinking about it, I was like, um, I did— the word would be vulnerable. Like, I did feel like, um, oh, I'm just put— like putting this out here, I don't know like who's it for, what's it for. But then it's like, okay, we asked like 'How are you?' 'Yeah, good. How are you?' Like, it's— yeah, I mean, that's a very—

Tommy: I guess so. Then the, the question is, had you spoken to somebody else in your close friend network?

Josh: Definitely.

Tommy: I mean, how you felt?

Josh: Yeah, definitely. I think that that's the, the, um, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't think that that— like, I think that the, the, the pushback on 'Oh mate, you don't tell this person unless you've told this person,' or whatever. Like, I think, um, it's a little bit more sort of layered than that, I would say.

Tommy: Um, because yeah, there's, there's nothing wrong with what you did at all.

Josh: Yeah, but maybe— but I think that probably like what your, your prejudice towards it, or you're like, 'Maybe come to someone else,' or do that sort of thing. I get that's the exact internal response that I had it was actually fine. And so I think that there's, there's something a little bit toxic about framing, okay, when we, when we're going to be this way and when we're going to be that way. Um, especially in a, in a business, I guess, where it's like, I mean, just think about like if you go to a workplace, there's so much shit that you're dealing with, like for other, everyone else's shit, right? Like if you Like there's personal issues, all that sort of thing. And it's impossible, like 2020, it's impossible. Like what you're experiencing or what we're seeing is it's like with this client thing, it's like we've sort of created this thing. It's like if you go to a restaurant and you ask the waiter, how are you? And they say, I'm not feeling good. But the thing is like, I don't think we can laugh at it. I don't know if we can even judge it.

Tommy: It's like, hang on, if that person in that moment Oh yeah, I laugh at the, I laugh at the, the, just the scenario where it's like society has not made it okay for the waiter to say yes. That's what I'm laughing at. It's like, because the waiter is a human that's probably feeling what we're feeling. Yeah. And so you're totally spot on there. It's like, because you would be very taken aback by somebody in that service offering But maybe that's that, like, it's the first time I've ever done it.

Josh: It's the first time I reckon I've ever, if someone said, how are you, not saying good. And I think part of it is like, it's like the Are You Okay Day, it's all that sort of thing. Like, just recognising that, like, you know, it's as much for other people it is for me, where it's like, okay, if we can create some— and I did feel in that moment where it's like I was coming to the meeting as a truer version of myself, where it's like they actually get the context.

Tommy: So yeah, I like it. No, I love it. It's, um, there— no, but I think that it's— there is definitely— I don't even know if it's like toxic is the right word when it's a society thing. That's—

Josh: I mean, toxic is pretty emotive. I think that toxic like is a bit triggering for people, or it's like a bit of this.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely. It's, it's saying definitely if you can shine a bit.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And if you can be that, so whatever that does in that moment where it just unlocks, you know, vulnerability, a buzzword, right? But it is like you actually being a version of your true self in that moment. If that sort of— I just feel like there could be like a, an unlocking in those moments where the rest of it is like, well, I've put it on the table, and so if you do sense that I'm a I'm a fucking piece of shit in your eyes in this moment, you know why, baby. And so take me in my full piece of shit.

Josh: But just, I guess like the question is, it's like, what's the negative side of that? So the negative side of that is not being able to, like what it felt like in the moment is like, am I removing myself? Am I being disconnected or not taking control of my emotions? So I felt like in the moment by me saying, I haven't been feeling, not that great today. But so, it wasn't something I wanted to enter into. It was just like, but, you know, everyone's feeling something like this.

Tommy: You said that.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. It's just like— But also—

Tommy: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. It's not just, it's not just, yeah, someone just opening it like you're prefacing.

Josh: But even if you were opening it, but see, the thing is like that there, the prefacing of like, I guess the question is that, or where we feel uncomfortable, is we feel responsible for our own emotions. And so, we feel that we don't want to hinder people, like we can't just be, you know, communicating that way. However, we're doing it anyway, whether we say, if we don't say we're not feeling good, we're going to be shorter, we're not going to be as open-minded, we're not going to be bringing the same level. So we're, we're projecting that emotion whether we like it or not. And so potentially by acknowledging it, maybe then all the— it then releases it from the actual communication. So then you're not project— you don't have to project it, you don't have to fucking do it in some form of code in the way that you interact. It's like it's all been said, and so now it's like, yeah.

Tommy: Um, yeah, I think the gain is greater for whatever comes from it than what can be lost. And so if you lost a piece of work based on fucking them being like, that was weird— not saying you, but someone like— but then on the flip side, you personally have gained this sense of living more true to how you are in that moment. I think that's probably greater than, than the opposite.

Josh: And because I get it, I get the, um, the snowflake sort of lens of 2020 where it's like, yeah, people, it's just like, oh, like, no, you just got to do the work, or you got to do this thing, or you got to— but there's got to be— I think there is a hybrid. I completely understand the old school, or the, the, the person who's saying, no, don't do that. Um, but I feel like there is a new one, there is a thing in between where it's like taking radical ownership. I'm not like communicating this to expect anything from them. It's purely an exercise in almost putting something to the side, maybe.

Tommy: I don't know. And so is there any place for that in between, do you think? Have you ever had—

Josh: have you had anyone, whether it be a, you know, a senior a colleague or, you know, like a manager or someone who you're meant to have that sort of professional relationship with who has opened up to you?

Tommy: Uh, but let me just think. I know, but I think you— I've felt when they're a piece of shit, when they're feeling like a piece of shit, not they're a piece of shit. I've sensed it more so.

Josh: And so what would you have felt if they'd said to you, if they had said to you, hey, 'Look, that's pretty stressful. Like, I'm dealing with a few stressful things with, like, in, you know, upper management or whatever it is.' Like, would that— Do you think that that would be positive to the overall experience?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I think you would empathise to the— Onto their level and probably—

Josh: And what would it do for them?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for them, but I mean, what do you think for yourself when you, when you talk, when you air what is going on? I'm just trying to work it out because you're right, you're like, if I'm feeling shit and anxious and overwhelmed and I don't say it, and so then you'll still sense exactly how I'm feeling.

Josh: Well, you did the first wave of COVID It's like, I think that your default is to hold it in, deal with it personally, all of that sort of thing. But once you're like, hey, this is really hard with having body heat, it's like, then you can actually have some assistance, or then you can actually move things forward, or then all of the— these things make sense. So I wonder, um, I wonder when it doesn't pay to communicate. That's a question.

Tommy: Like, I feel like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think you could talk with how you've been speaking, I think you could build a case, which I think you kind of did, is there's, there's never not a time. And so you, like, you're referring to senior managers, majority of the time they're hired based on their stability and their ability to manage teams who might be feeling in these ways. Like, I think that's what— and, and whether that's cultural or not. It's like a— I think it is cultural because you look at a father figure, a mother figure of like when you're a kid, you think they're— they've got it all sorted. And because they're the adult, because they're the person that's in charge of the household. But then you soon quite realise that we're all swimming in it together.

Josh: Can you have stability? Can you create stability and communicate how you're feeling?

Tommy: Can you create stability? Um, so for instance, like, I feel like work is an interesting one because we, like, if we're to think about work versus outside of work, I think friendship circles and families, there's a difference to senior managers in a business.

Josh: Well, I remember hearing it's like, um, a whisper turns into a shout. When you're leading a team. And so if you say—

Tommy: A fart turns into a shark.

Josh: Exactly. Very good, very good. No, but like, so for instance, if you've got the intern coming in and saying the world's fucked, the business is fucked, like everyone's like, okay, okay, it's fine. Like it's all good. But if the CEO or a leader or something like that saying, oh, everything's fucked, like there is an instability, there's definite instability in that. But there's a big difference between outlook, everything's fucked. And, oh, you know what, like, in this mode, like, don't you think that— is there any, like, talking about stability, is this just not like a bit of a facade in regards to, like, the most stable thing is being able to go through different emotions, recognise them, yeah, and continue on and do all of that sort of stuff?

Tommy: I get it. I don't know if we have the perspective of senior leadership in a big, big ship. So you look at people who are— look at the Army. I mean, like, you look at— or even just who's leading culture in the business. And so you could say a culture of openness and honesty to how you're feeling, but there's also— it's top-down a lot of the time. And so if the top-down is all over the shop. I'm just spitballing here. Top-down is all over the shop. What does that mean to everyone else? Like, when people are— like, people who are feeling a bit unstable can look to other people who are stable for stability, clearly. And so I just wonder where it—

Josh: yeah, so I guess like if you turn it on your head though, turn it on its head and say— because I agree, I think that it's a, um, uh, if we look at traditional business and all of that sort of thing, you can see, or if you're working for a publicly listed company where it's like your ability to be stable is the difference between your stock going up and down and all that sort of thing. But if you think about it from a human level and think around, like, this isn't about like going super personal with like your personal problems and things like that, But it is. I mean, if you look at the Dan Andrews, for instance, like whether Dan Andrews says he's okay or not okay, the Premier of Victoria, you can see that he's like, this is an emotional roller coaster. Right. And we—

Tommy: Oh, yeah.

Josh: And we understand it. We understand that, like, of course, it's like, this is really challenging. He's rocking out, whether he's saying it or not. We can tell that, okay, it's fucking hard for Dan at the moment. And so, it feels like potentially there's a bit of a shift in culture based on you've got the CEO of the AFL communicating about things changing drastically, people losing their jobs, doing all of this sort of thing. Like, like that, that obviously needs it. Like, but just rocking up and putting on this facade and being like, oh, everything's fine, I'm stable, and all that sort of thing, I feel like removes the human experience from business. And that doesn't mean that you, you react and you, um, you do all of the things that can be destructive to, you know, just living in sort of that emotional thing. I heard this, um, Robert Greene, who wrote the book, um, What's it called? Human Laws of Nature, I think it is. Laws of Human Nature, I think.

Tommy: I've got it.

Josh: Yes, The Laws of Human Nature. He talks about the two parts, like we all have— basically, the brain is the jockey and the horse is the heart. And if you, uh, if you try and control the horse the horse will know it and you won't get any performance and it will be a terrible experience. If you let the horse do its thing and just like completely hands off, it will go wild and it will be out of control. And so there's like an equilibrium that needs to happen between the jockey and the horse. And I feel like with business, that's what we need as well. We need to create some form of humanity. And so that's what we're like. We're just trying to push the limits or trying to understand of like, okay, what does it mean? Like, what's that like? When is this relevant, when is this, you know.

Tommy: Yeah, I think, but I think that's perfect because the, the great leader, I think, is the, the, is the jockey that understands the horse. And so I think what we're talking to is the, we're talking about navigating the taming of the horse or being the out-of-control horse. And so you could see that, yeah, a great leader is the one that's sort of found the equilibrium.

Josh: Like, yeah, it's like taming, I think, sort of puts a suppression on that emotional thing. It's not about suppressing, it's about like working in tandem, working it like, um, one doesn't necessarily outweigh the other.

Tommy: You tame a lion, but you know the lion can fucking kill you. And so there's— it's a facade. The taming is all a facade because the horse can go out of control, the lion will bite your head off.

Josh: But I think that the language is important because the difference between taming— taming feels like suppression, taming feels like control your emotions, where it's actually like, how do you work with your emotions? How do you— how does—

Tommy: I don't actually know what the word tame means. Not dangerous or frightened of people. So it's domesticated. So specifically relating to an animal.

Josh: So I think the reason, like, with taming, like, the domesticating of a— of your heart or the sort of your emotions, for me, like, connects with this system stuff that we're talking about, which is, you know, shut up, keep going. Like, the, uh, the professional thing to do, the manly thing to do, the, the thing to do if you're a leader is to be stable. And like, and so coming from that place, it feels like, uh, eventually there's going to be a point where that's not sustainable. Whereas if you can sort of actually work with and understand the horse and use it as a, you know, you know, I'm over that analogy. Yeah, I even fucking— yeah, I don't know anything about horses.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess when we say people are saying, and we're not specifically talking about anyone because I don't hear anyone saying this, right? So it could be referring to culture, uh, in terms of that, you know, masculinity. When we talk about masculinity and what men do, it's like it's the unsaid thing that we do, right? So that becomes societal norms or culture expectations. And so, but we see it, right?

Josh: Like, we, like, we, we have a reaction or a feeling, and then we're like, oh, why do we have that? Why am I feeling this way. Oh, this is, this is based on this, this, this, and this. And then it's like, oh, it's actually, it's not my opinion, it's not my thought, it's not the way that I feel, it's how I think that I need to— like, I feel like for a lot of things and a lot of people, it's like going to work can be a performance. Um, it's like the, you know, the what it means to be an HR person and what you got to do. And it's like, but like, I've met heaps of great people in those roles that bring more humanity to it, less sort of, you know, professional in air quotes, but it is actually way more effective.

Tommy: Yeah, I think there probably is a movement towards more human-centered leadership within business, like what we're talking about. I, um, I wonder, I mean, the companies of the future and the businesses like ours I mean, they have to be a result of these conversations. Like, it has to move that way if we're talking about it.

Josh: It's also dealing with people. Like, I think that especially with what we're building, it's like all of those things, like we are sharing a bit of ourselves. It's like when Jess said to you, it's like, oh, you're hearing things that I would never expect, you know, someone within my, you know, team to, to hear because she's on a fucking podcast and you're editing it and doing all— but that's like That's, that's 2020, don't you think?

Tommy: Yeah, I know.

Josh: Yeah, that's having a fucking podcast.

Tommy: It is, it is. Is it vulnerable at that point? Like, it is, but it's a, um, it is an interesting sort of mechanism, the podcast thing, to, to, to access those results of vulnerability. You know, because you can feel like we're just having a conversation, it's you and I, there's no one else listening.

Josh: Well, there's a, there's a faux vulnerability too. Like, there's this— and that's what I'm always wary of, is it's like, am I being really vulnerable? Like, if I tell this story, like, am I really being vulnerable? Or it's like, there's some people who— I think we all do it. It's like we can be extremely open in some areas and, and, and demonstrate vulnerability but we don't have vulnerability at the very basic, basic, basic level. And so, for instance, like, I think the trap with the entertainers or anyone doing a podcast is the, the vulnerability of doing something through the medium of a podcast. I don't know, I haven't listened to it all yet. I've listened to the start— Tim Ferriss's latest episode on trauma and stuff. Have you listened to that?

Tommy: Yeah, I've listened to probably 30 minutes heavy.

Josh: And so the thing is, it's like he hasn't told most of his— most of his friends don't know this story, most family don't know this story. And so he is choosing this method to do it. You could say that there's a level of vulnerability in having that conversation with each individual person, but you've got to ask like, why is the reason he's telling that storey is because he wants to help others. He wants to be able to, to normalise some of these things. Yeah.

Tommy: And so, which I think we will— it will, won't it, to some degree?

Josh: Yeah. Watch it. Yeah, it definitely starts a conversation. And, and, um, also I think it talks about, you know, he talks about the psychedelic stuff or psilocybin or whatever it is, and all that, like all that sort of stuff. And you can see the, um People are talking about, you hear about it on podcasts all the time, but then there is the reality that it could untap a bunch of other things that you don't—

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: You aren't thinking about. And so, I think people go into this with some sort of, you know, this is the 2020 thing to do or, you know, not realising how much of a strong thing or strong impact that could have.

Tommy: Oh yeah, I think there's nothing new about that as a— but it's probably just more common knowledge now, uh, in, in society that that's what it can do. Um, I mean, hallucinogens and these things have opened up, tapped into things since they've been around, right? Um, it's, uh, yeah, I mean, the vulnerability thing It's, um, so I was just thinking about, uh, the one thing I like about listening to people who have a podcast, like, think about who— about people who have a podcast. So, um, consistent things as well. You see that it's hard to escape, uh, showing who you are when you are showing up quite often. And, you know, the television in the old days, performers, I think you could hide it behind closed doors because it is very thought out for a 30-minute piece. It's probably months of work.

Josh: Well, it's a criticism of like Ellen DeGeneres is it's like, or anyway, Dr. Phil, all of these characters where it's like the disconnect between who they are as a person and then what they're doing on air.

Tommy: Yeah, I think when you are forced to think about how you would be coming across at a consistent— like, what are— what are— you think about your character and you think about who you are. And so then you're— you're like, I think this show, you get a great sense of who we are as, as individuals.

Josh: Well, because we're trying to figure it out too, I think, on that. And I think that that's why, um You know, potentially, like, I don't take— like, I think I'm pretty comfortable with criticism, especially like against the podcast, because I'm like, I understand how this flowing of information, of thought, and all that stuff— like, I don't even like all my ideas. Like, most of them I don't like. Like, this is the thing. And like, we— there's a lot of self-hate for a lot of people, and I think that like, that's— yeah, it makes sense. Of course, like, people are going to project or not be happy with what we're talking about or different pieces. And so, but I think that that stops a lot of people from doing it because, yeah, the reality of it is that probably there's more people who won't connect with our message or get it or be interested in it than people that are. And so, I think like for us, it's just like being able to keep it very insular. I think that this is— I was talking to a mate yesterday about what does it mean to be mainstream? So not from the sense of what it means is from an audience perspective, but what's the difference between a content perspective? So if you say this podcast is a mainstream podcast, mainstream audiences will like it, what is the difference? Like, if I put a, if I put a piece of mainstream content and put something like what we're doing up, what is, what is the difference? What do you think?

Tommy: Mainstream from the old school sense, which in my mind is appeals to everyone, and so it won't ruffle feathers. It will— it could be for mum, for grandpa, for anybody in between that, you know, that could, could enjoy it. And so you're trying to how can we access the most amount of people with this one piece of content? I feel like that's what mainstream content could be.

Josh: Yeah, I think that, and part of that is it's, it's, um, somewhat missing an element. Like, as soon as you try and do, uh, to do that, it has to sit in the middle. So it's like if you think about chocolate or something, it's like if you've got 85% dark or whatever, and then you've got like super sweet, like it's got to sit in the middle. But if it's like sitting in the middle will, I guess, have the most likelihood of getting a broad audience.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: But you won't necessarily get any extreme interest. You won't get like, you won't connect on a super deep level. And so, that's what like I think that outside of mainstream, I think that that's like I'm so excited about these different things that we're building because they have their audience, they have— and they can be really for the people who are listening. And it doesn't need to be like— I think that the thing that I always think about is like, I think growth is funny, like, as a metric. So like, when you think about growth, there's a risk, there's a risk that you are trying to change your product to become more palatable for a bunch more people. I think for us, what, what growth is, is it's like trying, trying to find more of the people that are relevant, like, who find this interesting. And I don't, I don't know what the answer— I don't know what the answer is.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Just back on vulnerability, I was thinking, um, there's the version of you that you want others to think you are, and there's the version of you where you are right now. And vulnerability, in my eyes, is one way of looking at it, could be, um, revealing to people where you are. You're in the middle, uh, you're not where you want to be, and you're not necessarily the person at the moment that you are isn't where you want to be. And so being open to— for people to see, like, warts and all, or to see the true side of you, not in a negative sense. I think seeing the true side of you could think that the true side of you is this piece of shit, but it is like someone pointing out like, I see the hole there, and you definitely know that the hole is there and you're trying to bridge the gap, or you're trying to, you know, patch that hole. And someone— because what does that mean if someone can see that hole? It's the judgement that can come with it. It's the pointing out the obvious. It's the, you know, the the criticism about it or the feeling that they'll feel. And so, I mean, that is a sense of vulnerability.

Josh: But also like everyone, like, is anyone at the point where they've like clocked life? Like, this is the thing, it's like, it's not going to, it's not like we're ever going to get to a point where it's like, oh yeah, I've done everything that I've said that I want to do, for the most part. Um, and so I think potentially we can be hard on ourselves based on where we are and where we want to be, but then we also need to realise that it's just like it moves in this dynamic way where as we progress what we want to do. So if I think about 5 years ago, I would say that my goal would be to doing— be doing what I'm doing now. Like, having, you know, 5 years ago someone said, oh yeah, you've done over 850 episodes of a podcast. I'd be like, that's a— like, that's epic, that's what I want to do. The thing is, you slowly work towards that, and then you're like, okay, I've done that, I still don't feel good with my body, or I don't feel good about this. And so, like, it just, um, like, there's a piece of work, I guess, in recognising that and being sort of, um, uh, you know, not, not falling for— I think that I constantly fall for when I get to this weight, when I get to this sort of thing, like I'll feel lighter, I'll feel better, I'll feel clearer. It's like, it's never, it's never like that, right? Because we can all talk about how you look at a photo from you, um, 3 years ago, and you're like, oh man, I thought that person was like overweight or unhealthy, or what, like, fuck, what I would do to be that person now. And so that's the fucked up thing. And so if we can just apply that to now and be like, oh, like, this is actually really good, um, because it's— yeah, it's, it's, it's weird. But because you— we're never going to arrive, we're never going— like, it's not going to be a time where it's like we've done everything that we want to do.

Tommy: Mm, definitely.

Josh: Right, all right, good. Uh, it's a daily talk show. If you enjoyed the show, uh, share it on Instagram. Just do a screen grab now if you're on your, uh, your phone. Uh, you know, tag us up, uh, so that we can say thank you. Give us some love. Yeah, if you, uh, also, uh, One Trick Tony, Tony Lodge's show, it's great. Uh, episode drops, every Thursday, and today being Thursday, there's a new episode there, so definitely go cheque that out. Uh, also there's, uh, Too Much Telly. Episodes come out every Tuesday. Hump Day Replay came out yesterday, being Wednesday, and on Sunday, the very first episode of Screenplay Sunday with special guest Ryan Shelton. So make sure you go to your favourite podcast app and subscribe so you get it on Sunday. Otherwise, we'll see tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.