Ryan Shelton On Feedback & Creating Short Film LOOPHOLE

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 788.

Tommy: Ryan Shelton, welcome back to the show, buddy. Uh, I mean, I'm a bit disappointed. Where's your skivvy?

Ryan: Yeah, the skivvy, um, the skivvy's off.

Josh: Yeah, if you're not watching the visuals, Ryan's got no top on right now. Your, um, your chest looks great. Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, I've always said Skivvy or nothing, and today it's nothing.

Josh: So we just watched your latest Ryan.com.

Tommy: I love when I go to the pronunciation, I go to the website, I literally go R and then I say, then I get the Y key and I say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, A-N.com.

Ryan: That's it.

Tommy: But I have to, I have to say it out loud, otherwise I won't get there.

Josh: I think that was the point, wasn't it? Is that what you were hoping for?

Tommy: It's great. It's just—

Josh: It's got cut-through.

Tommy: It's like a fun little game for a dummy like me. I'm like, this is fun.

George: Anyway, love it.

Ryan: Loophole. Loophole. Yeah. Loophole is— Yeah. So, it came out yesterday and it's probably— I mean, for those who don't know what I'm talking about, so at the start of the year, I set up a website which is like you said just to me, like ryanwith11y's.com, and I sort of set this goal for myself to release something on the 11th of every month and just for the purpose of giving myself a goal or some sort of self-discipline so I could actually make things because I'm just happiest when I'm making things. And I often just find stupid excuses like coronavirus or some fucking lame thing like that. And so anyway, but so this year it's just been the best thing because it's meant that it's forced me to make a bunch of stuff and this latest thing, Loophole, is probably the biggest thing I've done on the website.

Josh: So, this was actually 2018 you did the filming, was it?

Ryan: Yeah, end of 2018. So, when you watch it and you see us like hugging and, you know, talking at 1.4 metres apart, just know that it was well before COVID But yeah, it's just, it's been, because it's longer, it's like 35 minutes long.. And we shot it on like proper cameras and sort of did the proper process, even though there was only 5 of us and we didn't have any money or anything, no funding or anything. So, it just meant that over sort of over the year, like last year, myself and Ben Timoney, who is the director, he and I just kind of edited wherever we could just in between our normal jobs. And then, yeah, then just decided that I'd put it out on July 11th, and it sort of sped up the process.

Tommy: Is it— was it excruciating holding on to something that is great for so long? I mean, do you start telling yourself a storey about what it'll actually end up being like?

Ryan: It's interesting, actually. Well, interesting to me. May not be interesting. But for a long time, because I filmed it so long ago and I only had the idea for Ryan.com at the end of last year, For a long time, I wasn't really sure.

Josh: Pronunciation. Just pronunciation. I'm sorry.

Ryan: Yeah. My pronunciation's a little bit off. But yeah, in that year before, like between filming and having the idea for the website, I wasn't sure how I would actually put it out. And I had like a bunch of like weird ideas. Like I wanted to, like one idea which I was really excited about was Putting it on like a private Vimeo link and sending it to like 10 people who I think would appreciate it and then asking them if they like it to email it to then 10 people, essentially like a chain letter or whatever those things used to be on email. And because I kind of miss that, I miss that personalised curation that we used to have on email before we had social media where you could kind of blast 1,000 people with a thing. Where you would get an email from a friend and they'd say, hey, I thought of you specifically when I saw this and I want you to see it. So, I was going to do that, but I haven't done that. I've done the blast.

Tommy: I remember, do you remember? There was, there was like a, you wanted to get on the email chain and it was a football, sort of football commentary that would go out weekly. Do you remember this? I could imagine you would have been on something like that years ago, but it was that viral email chain that like, just got momentum, but it's the most clunky way of building a tribe. But if it works, you know it's legit viral because people have had to work so hard to opt in. Yeah, but I feel like that isn't what you've gone for. I mean, the— how do you go about— like, I— what I love about Loophole, uh, is that it's almost behind the scenes but also filming. Uh, it's, it's all written, but it seems like it goes from behind the scenes to action where we're doing a skit here, how much ad-lib goes into the bits where it looks like it's behind the scenes versus how much is it verbatim? It's written and it's exactly what you've written.

Ryan: So, uh, so there's— so when people watch it, there's like 3 scripted sort of sketches or little mini films, I guess you call a few of them, and those are all fully scripted. But all the, the bits where we're kind of playing ourselves in the interlude bits of us just hanging around the house, that was all improvised, but with, you know, to a— with an intention. So, kind of like how I've heard they do Curb Your Enthusiasm, where, you know, Larry knows what the scene's about. So, the scene is— so, for us it was like, because it's me and Dave Lawson and Rick Davies, and so the scene might be Rick has a question about the script, but before that we're going to play this game where we try and sing our best.. So, that's pretty much all the planning that we did. And because I just thought I've never done that before and I really, I'd always wanted to try it and this felt like the right time to try it. And those bits were just the most fun. Like that felt so liberating and kind of freeing in a weird way where you didn't have a script, but you knew where you were going. So, you're just sort of in this world where anything could happen, but you didn't feel too overwhelmed because you know, you knew where the endpoint was.

Josh: When you think about how long it took and then you see what has happened with Rye and the website, would you approach it differently now or do you feel like you've got even more confidence to be shipping more things?

Ryan: Well, I mean, this, this like loophole was pretty much the first thing when my, when the shift happened in, in me, like I had this shift in me, which I think I've spoken to you guys about before. Where I sort of thought, I just want to start making stuff without waiting for someone to give me permission or someone to give me money to do it, which is sort of the traditional way of doing things. I mean, it's like, you know, what you guys do. It's just like, I'm just going to— you just decide to do it. And Loophole was kind of the first thing I did with that in mind. And so, that was— and it was all about process over product. So, all like for the whole the whole experience of it, I always tried to prioritise the process of making it as opposed to what it will look like at the end. So, when we were filming it, there was even a time where Ben and I talked about never releasing it because there's— I sort of thought about it and because we want to do it again. And after we finished it, we all had the best week and we just had so much fun. 'Cause, you know, there's no one telling you that you had to wrap. So, one night we filmed till 5:00 AM because we were just drinking and filming and it was just, we didn't have to stop, so we didn't. And so, after that week of filming, it was just so much fun and I thought, I want to do it again. And then I sort of started thinking, well, what would be the best environment? Like, is it better to film the next one before this one comes out? So you're not affected by a response. So, we can just go back into it and truly enjoy the experience without being affected by a negative response or even a positive response. So, I got to this point where I thought, maybe if I just never release it, then that's the purest form. Like, that's the purest form of process is never releasing the product. I heard this storey once about, and it's probably not true, but it's a really good story. I think it was some director like from the '70s, like Nick Cassavetes or one of those sorts of directors. And he was filming some massive film and he was at a point where he was like full auteur. He could do anything he wanted. And it was at the end of a shoot day and, you know, remembering that they used to film on film. So, it was at the end of a shoot day, they were filming out in the desert somewhere and one, and some, there'd been a stuff-up and someone had said, oh, look, there's some, it's bad news. Tomorrow we, they weren't able to get the film stock. So, we haven't got film stock for tomorrow. We're going to, you know, we're going to have to cancel the day. And apparently, he said, no. We film the day without the film because that's what this is about.

Tommy: There's a digital minimalist Ryan that deletes all these files because he doesn't want to keep them. Doesn't—

Josh: Yeah, he keeps none of the raw stuff, which seems like sort of outrageous.

Tommy: But what's it for at that point? It becomes— It's for you. Like, if you weren't to release it and you'd be happy with that, then I guess that is the win. But it seems like, you know, Seth Godin's about shipping something. It's the last piece to the puzzle. It's the thing that sort sort of brings it into its full form is when you put it out into the world for people to see, which I love. Um, your, your— I think it was your third or fourth, Ryan, was, um, Sorry. And it was a, uh, it was a one-take video about how you didn't have a video for that week. And I saw people— I saw you posted on social media and I saw someone write on it saying, oh, you know, it's all right, mate, no, we don't always get to finish things. And That's all good. And I— and actually, to me, I was like, right, he's crumbled, he hasn't released one. And I watched it, and for me, what I took— and I don't even know, I wanted to ask you if this is where you were drawing inspiration for the Sorry video— was this, uh, culture online of people making videos about how they're sorry they haven't done the creative promise. Was that— were you trying to make fun of that? Because I was like, that's fucking genius. That is so, that is so genius.

Ryan: Well then, yes, that is so good. No, no, no, I, I don't, I don't know. I don't, I've never seen that, but I, but there is definitely like, it's a pretty, it's a pretty common thing where, you know, like if someone has a column, they'll at some point they'll usually write that, uh, this week I haven't got an idea for a column. There's always a, yeah. I feel like everyone always does that in some way. Maybe that's what you're talking about.

Tommy: Yeah, it's the YouTuber, Ryan, that's always saying, hey, sorry, here's why I haven't been posting on YouTube. It's like there's a niche of those style videos. There should just be one channel where everyone's like—

Josh: Explaining where they've been is a big one, you know.

Ryan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, there's definitely a lot of people who think that it just was an apology video for not doing anything. And I kind of like that. I was sort of tempted at the time to tell people that just make sure you keep watching. But then I thought, then I kind of liked the fact that there's going to be a lot of people who'll never see the whole thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Ryan: Because they just assume that it is what it is. I even went on, I was on Fitzy and Wippa around that time. I think it was for, I did a show on ABC and they had me on for that. But then Wippa, who's, you know, a good friend of mine, Wippa, you know, at the end he was like, now, Ryan, you know, we have to talk about the new Ryan.com, you've let yourself down, you know, you haven't done a video. And I was like, yeah, Whip, have you watched it? He's like, oh yeah, yeah, I've watched it and I wasn't happy. You know, he was— I said, but Whip, have you watched the whole thing? And he's like, yep, yep, yep. And it became very clear that he hadn't watched it, which is like classic FM radio interview technique. But that's the same with a lot of people. I kind of love I love that.

George: I love—

Ryan: and because there's no other place that I could ever do that. Like, I could never get away with, if I was taking like Screen Australia money or I was on the ABC, you can never do that stuff.

Josh: Yeah.

Ryan: Like, this is the only— that's the only place you can try stuff and be experimental. It's become more of a, of like my own little lab, like just trying different things.

Tommy: It's a bit like the artist that created the $5 note where there's a whale eating a penis. If you put it on its side and fold it up. Like, that's an Easter egg. I mean, if someone didn't do that on purpose, that is a coincidence.

Ryan: Yeah, no, I think that'd be on purpose for sure.

Josh: The script and improv and enjoying the process of just having a prompter and then going for it, does it make you reconsider the way that you write scripts?

Ryan: Um, well, it definitely— uh, so not really actually. The scripted stuff is, it is what it is, but I definitely want to do more of that, of that, um, non-scripted stuff because that was, that was way more fun performing that than it was performing the scripted stuff. Because the scripted stuff is, there, there's a restriction there. And I guess for, for a proper actor, which, you know, I am not, but for a proper actor, I guess the craft they would probably enjoy the craft of studying the script and getting that right and working on that. But for me, I much preferred the world of just performing. And you can only do it with people that you really, I guess, know well or trust. And between myself and Dave and Rick, there was— didn't feel like there were never any egos there. There was never anyone trying to outdo anyone. It was a really great kind of level playing field, uh, with coronavirus.

Tommy: And, you know, I guess people are stuck in their house, uh, for a good reason. But a lot of people would be reflective of, on geography playing a part to being able to be the most creative. You know, it's like, ah, if I'm not in New York, I can't be doing vlogs, or if I'm not CBD-based, I can't be doing this. I mean, you've been on your farm for since it all happened back in March. How have you found being away from the city, uh, you know, you and your partner? How are you feeling about creativity and what geography means to your creative bone?

Josh: Well, I, I mean, it's been creative bone, not being your penis, if that's what you were.

Ryan: Okay, sorry, I have to rethink my answer. Um, Yeah, no, yeah, I think it's— we're extremely— I was just extremely lucky to be able to not be in the city. And out here, there's just the difference for me is this. I've got space and I can kind of walk around and there's not like a lot of people in the vicinity. So, it's good from that point of view. And when we would come out here before coronavirus, this is just what it is. It's just not seeing many people. So, being here doesn't feel that different, except for the fact that I'm not going back and forth from Melbourne, from the city all the time. But from a creative point of view, it's hard to know really, because I feel like this year has been a particularly different year for me. So, I haven't really got a like to compare it to because of this website. I've thought about this a lot, actually, and I reckon if I didn't set up this website at the start of the year for myself, this sort of monthly discipline, knowing myself, I reckon I would have definitely used the pandemic as an excuse not to make anything. I would have maybe written a lot of stuff, but I don't think I would have made stuff. So, I think that I've been lucky that I did do it because it's meant that I've been forced to be creative and that's just been— to make stuff and that's just been great. But I've spoken to people who have kind of gone either way. I'm sure you guys have as well, but people who've been insanely creative in this time. And then, but then people who have just not been able to do anything. I don't know if that just comes down to kind of neurology or if that comes down to people's individual situations.

Josh: But yeah. Constraints seems to be a big one as well. But I think like having the constraints and having options taken away, I feel like that could be a big thing because you don't necessarily have to say no to heaps of things that are being said for you. And so, then you can have a level of focus.

Tommy: But I think it is, Ryan, as you mentioned, there are— like, I have read a few people, a few creative people that have been in really tough spots mentally, which is just the other side of the coin, which I guess there always is. But I always— it's like a personal understanding we all need to sort of work out, which is what are the excuses and, and what, what will make us get off our bum or stick to something and How— what promise are we making that we'll actually stick to? It's a complex thing. And so, if you can work it out for yourself like it sounds like you have, it's a good way.

Ryan: Well, yeah, I mean, this is working. Yeah, it's working for me so far. I don't know how long I'll do it for, but certainly every time I've done— I've made something and put it out there, like the last thing I did before Loophole was something that I really— it really stressed me out because I was I was in the middle of making this, these segments I was doing on an ABC show and I was doing that every week. And so, I was already really busy and then I had to also do this website thing. So, I just, I felt like stressed by it. But then once I'd done it, I was just so happy that I did it. Like, you know, stayed up late, forced myself to get it done. And I think whenever I do that, I always feel way better about myself than I would have if I didn't push myself to do it.

Josh: So, what have the learnings been? So, you did that, the— was it a 4-part series? What was the BBC, like the funding that you got? Can you explain that end of the spectrum where you get cash and do that versus something like Loophole and how you approach it and how different it is?

Ryan: Well, it's kind of— it really just comes down to Well, money is one thing, but money, having no money is just a parameter that you deal with. Like, it's not a big deal. Like, you know, it's just an obstacle that kind of often creates new ideas or better ideas.

Josh: And so, was How to Life, was that what it was called? The— Yeah. And so, what was that? What was the funding? I'm just trying to remember because it felt like it was a unique thing. It was— funding from the UK to create a series. What did you have to supply?

Ryan: So, Channel 4 in the UK, they have an online sort of thing that they do called Blaps. They're comedy blaps. And essentially, they just like give like little mini web series to comedians that they, you know, either want to develop or they think have a good idea. So, in my situation, I'd written a full— the full show of How to Life, like a proper 6-part series, pitched it to them and it, you know, got quite far down the line. And then at the sort of last moment they said, oh, we can't do the show, but we can give you money for the kind of the small version, the 3 5-minute episodes, which I was really excited about. And so, that money came from Channel 4, but the unique part about it, which I think maybe you're talking about is because it was a— because Channel 4 are partly— it's sort of like SBS, they're partly government funded. So, part of their charter is they have to support local independent production companies in the UK. And I was— we were producing it like with our production company and then another production company in Australia. So, then they— we had to find a third local UK production company to get on board. So, there were three— it was like a three-way 4-way if you count Channel 4. So, it just means that there's just way more voices in the room. So, the more, obviously, the more money that you have, the more opinions that are going to get involved. Unless it's from what I hear from people who do shows on Netflix, often I've heard that it's, they just kind of get money and just make it. Like there's no, there's not a lot of interference. But usually, the rule is the more money, the more opinions. So, for Loophole, there's certainly no money, so there were not many opinions. It was just me. And that was the joy of it for me, was to have something to fully— to be the— to have something to mould myself and not have to run ideas past anyone. And of course, I was getting lots of advice and I was running things by people I trusted, but they were suggestions or ideas that I could take or leave. Which is a really nice thing to do.

Tommy: Do you think, um, you start your career thinking that making it will be, you know, getting funded by a TV network or, or making something for a big telly network is going to be that version that you're explaining that you end up doing by yourself? Is that what you felt getting into TV?

Ryan: No, no, no. Like when I started TV, and this is sort of like what I talked about when we did that live show whatever episode that was of yours.

Tommy: Can you believe that was this year, Ryan? That was like January. It feels like years ago.

George: Wow.

Ryan: Yeah, that is insane.

Josh: But you've been to the future. Yeah.

George: Yeah.

Ryan: I should have told everyone. Damn. I'm so forgetful. But yeah, when I was a kid, or a kid, when I was 18, you know, 17, there was not Internet was pretty, pretty early, so there wasn't YouTube or anything. So, there still wasn't legitimate opportunities to release Loophole, you know, to— you could either go to a TV channel or you could go to Channel 31. That was really the only options. So, back then, all I had in my mind was TV show on Channel 10, you know, that I'm the star of and I write and whatever. And that was, to me, that was the goal. And that was the thing that I had in my mind, that if I get that TV show, then I will have proved to myself/my parents that I've made it, you know. And I think now, I'm not sure, I mean, we'll probably ask 97andGeorge, but I think now when people are coming up now, I think, I suspect, and I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the goals and the dreams are slightly different. Because there's so many more, like naturally so many more opportunities. And the idea of having a YouTube channel that you can get money for is probably just as exciting, if not more exciting, than getting a show at 8:30 on the ABC.

Tommy: There's more clout having an OnlyFans account versus being on Channel 10.

Josh: Are you across OnlyFans, Ryan, do you know about that?

Ryan: Oh yeah, I've heard. Yeah, was that— Yeah, someone was telling me about that the other night, but They weren't sure whether it's like becoming an adult.

Josh: Yeah, so how do you describe it? Well, I mean, and how do we subscribe to you?

Tommy: It's a subscription porn site essentially, but the porn, what length it goes to, is, is varied to the person. So it's influencers, or people who are influencers, create an OnlyFans account to, you know, release racier content at a subscription, monthly subscription, or you know, 3 months.

Ryan: Is it over 18? Is it like—

Tommy: you're meant to be. I think you'd have to have a credit card to do it. So there's—

Josh: to, to back someone type of—

Tommy: yeah, there's people making $300,000 a month and they're posting nude selfies. It's crazy.

Ryan: Are they famous people or who are they?

Tommy: Yeah, so it works for people who have big followings, i.e., Ryan Shelton. If he wants to start doing racy content, you could already start marketing to the people, you know, you convert them from Ryan to Ryan. Anyway, it's, uh, it is a weird thing what aspirations of people in the industry, how it shifts.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's shifting on technology as a first, you know, first thought for people.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, JB, you've been a fan. We had, uh, JB interview you on the 24-hour stream. You've been a massive fan. Yeah. What do you think when you see Ryan do these things outside of TV? Does it change the way that you look at from a career path point of view or where it's all going for you even?

George: Yeah, definitely. Like the, I mean, what I noticed with the, with Loophole, you've already talked about it, but the joy in the behind the scenes stuff, which was included in the sketches and stuff, was so clear and it just, yeah, I loved it. It makes you want to do that. But the, like, what we're doing here is the— I'm loving it. The development.

Ryan: What you guys— Sorry to cut you off, George, but what you guys are doing— What you guys are doing there, I think, is the ultimate. Like, I reckon what you guys are doing is unbelievable. I'm so— I just admire it so much. I think what you've managed to build and where it's at now, and you can see where it can go, and it's all, it's so autonomous and it's yours and it's uniquely yours. And if you had of, and it's growing organically in that great way, which doesn't seem contrived or not forced. It's just great. I just love it. And I just think, I reckon a lot of people will probably watch and listen to what you guys are doing and be inspired by it. It's incredible.

Josh: Thanks, Rye. I think like the— and it seems like a unique time as well, where even though there's a lot of heartbreak happening and a lot of unfortunate events, it is the opportunity where people need entertainment, they need creativity. Have you thought about what the future looks like as you're seeing all of these success, you know, successes of the different Ryans? Where does it go? Do you just keep building momentum? Do you keep building the site?

Ryan: Well, it's always the site is just an outlet. It's just somewhere to put the things that I make. And that's— I don't really intend it to ever be something that grows an audience. I mean, I have thought about at some point just putting it all on a YouTube channel, but immediately that kind of— it kind of gives me a bit of anxiety because it's like, well, then there's going to be comments and then I'm going to have that sort of feeling of, oh, do I have to then maintain communication with the commenters? And it becomes something else than what it was. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it becomes something else than what it was designed to be.. And I'm just really wary of remembering why I'm doing it. And the reason I'm doing it is to just give myself a reason to make something every month, just to be creative, just to finish things, really. It's not to build an audience necessarily. Of course, I want people to see it and I want people to see Loophole and whatever I make, but not just to build an audience. Like, I never— I don't want to catch myself saying, please subscribe. I love people who are doing YouTube channels, like I love that, but I feel like it's a separate thing. I don't really want this to be that. So, yeah, it's— I think I'll just sort of see how it goes and I'll do this for the year and I hope that I'll keep doing it. But it's certainly feeling good right now for me, for what I want it to be. It feels really really good.

Josh: And so, what's the compass then? Because I feel like that's what you've gotten very clear on is it's like, you know exactly where you want to go with it. It's a lot of it is instinct and feeling it out. How would you help someone who's a younger person, who's earlier on in their journey to be able to have that self-awareness of what they want?

Ryan: Well, I actually don't know where I want it to go, like, and I think that's what is that when I realised that doesn't have to end somewhere, that was the thing that kind of set me free a little bit. And that is often what people— that is the thing that kind of cripples people sometimes is the thought of like, oh, well, you know, it's that whole thing of like when I get to 100,000 followers, it's that then you're always going to want more. There's always going to be something else. So, to have that end goal is something that you're building towards. I found that it kind of gets in the way of the reason that I actually wanted to do it. So, it's like you guys, it's like what you guys are doing. It's just like this ever-evolving thing. It's not like season 1, season 2, season 3. There's never an opportunity to reconsider whether you'll keep going. And I reckon that is kind of the secret.

George: Are you thinking? Can I ask a question?

Tommy: Yeah, go for it. No, no, no.

Josh: George, you've done. You're done.

George: Are you thinking each month? To make the next thing better? Like, is there pressure on you to do that?

Ryan: No, not really. I mean—

George: How do you tell yourself it doesn't have to be better?

Ryan: Because I don't necessarily— I don't think— I could be wrong, but I don't think that's what anyone's thinking when they watch it. I don't think they're judging it based on whether it's as good or better than the last one, because I'm certainly not. It's just whatever feels right for that month. So, because you can also, the idea of better could be judged in so many different ways. Like, is it funnier? Is the production quality better? Did it get more comments? Did, you know, whatever. Like, there's so many different measurements of success that, you know, like even like right now I've started playing with like GarageBand and like playing music, just trying to, I've never played music in my life, but just that's kind of like borrowed my girlfriend's old MIDI controller and just playing, trying to just make things. And so, that might lead to something. And I don't think I would restrict myself from doing it if I didn't think it was going to be as good as Loophole, because then it's like, well, you can't—

Josh: if you—

Ryan: I mean, it's all well and good to try and keep bettering yourself, but I don't necessarily feel the need to try and better the product. It's more just trying to maintain the process.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a— there's a fine line between being super outcome-focused and being comfortable with where you are right now. So in meditation, it's like this moment is all you have, and so it's letting go of all those feelings of later on or, you know, tomorrow, and, and just accepting this moment. And so I'm just trying to bring it back to the creation part of things where I know where I've let go of wanting it to be this thing or going, you know, up to be this big success and just enjoyed it. It's worked a lot of the times. Or when I've shifted my focus away from being so obsessed about getting on radio, I go and do another course that has nothing to do with radio, and then I got a radio job. Like, and to me, that's where I'm just like, fuck, isn't that annoying? Where I've dropped my obsession with my focus on it and it's worked. Have you found a moment in life like that?

Ryan: Well, I mean, like, I— can I ask you a question, Tommy?

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Um, so do you— are you now thinking that— are you like, would you want to get back on radio, like commercial radio, or is this like, you know what I mean? Like, what's the— what's the goal now?

Tommy: Definitely not. It was— that was a part of the journey I think I needed. But for that time where I really wanted to, I was looking for any opportunity, get messaging everybody, trying to get my foot in the door. And then I went and did a coaching course where it was more around dealing with people and asking questions. And, and then in that time where I'd removed my focus from trying to get onto radio, that's when the thing happened. And it was because I put in a bunch of work, don't get me wrong, but it was, it was almost the, the results of past work. But then when my attention wasn't on it, I got there, I was like, ah. But then for now, it's definitely not about getting onto radio. If anything, it's more just like building something that we can stick at for a very long time, because that's a superpower, because most people will jump off the horse.

Josh: Did you feel a little bit like that, Ryan, with the, with the ABC show? Like you're doing all of this Ryan stuff that all of a sudden you're taking your attention off pitching or trying to get in front of people and then all of a sudden people start knocking at your door?

Ryan: Yeah, well, I mean, I'm positive that the only reason that they wanted me on the show is because they'd been watching the stuff I was doing on the website, like they referenced that directly. So, I think it definitely put me on their radar to want me to do stuff on the show. But I think that's such— I find that such— and maybe that's really interesting to me, like Tommy, what you were saying about Having that thing that's a forever job like that, that is, that's kind of, I guess, what I was saying before. But that I think that's, you've hit the nail on the head because I'll probably always keep every now and again trying to pitch shows like TV shows like that. I'll always have the idea of want to do that. I'll always want to do if I get asked to do shows like on the ABC, like At Home Alone Together or whatever comes up. That's always a possibility. But I think the— what the website allows me to do is to always have something to do that no one can take away. And when you're doing, whether it's like FM radio or you're on a TV show, no matter how successful you are, you're still never fully comfortable. Like, there's always the chance that you'll be sacked or people will stop watching or listening. And then what do you do? Like, to put your creativity in someone else's hands like that, that was the thing that I wanted to try and avoid. So, now if I did get a TV show up, that's great. But if it didn't go well or it didn't, you know, got cancelled or whatever, then that's okay as well because I can still do what I like doing.

Josh: I feel like what you're doing is like giving a gift every month because I like that it doesn't have The— It doesn't necessarily have connections. Like when I opened up the video for Loophole, I caught myself trying to connect a dot into some sort of series or a thing or like, you know, I think we're programmed to do it that way. And then by the end of it, I was like—

Ryan: Do you mean like how does it— Do you mean like how is it connected to my other— The other videos?

Josh: No, not even. It's just like, oh, this is the start. Like my instant reaction is it's like, oh, Ryan's taking another, like, this is another direction, or these are characters that are going to go on. And then by the end of it, the way that I felt, it had the feeling of watching a great short film or something where it's like you're gifted this thing. It's a bit of like, it's more a focus on an artist who is experimenting. And it's like I've gone into an exhibition. And I've seen, I've gone into a room, I've experienced it, but then I'm going to walk into another room and you can give me an entirely different experience. And I feel like that is a very exciting thing as an audience member.

Ryan: That's awesome. Yeah, I think the comparison to like an artist, that's— I remember when I visited a friend of mine, he's a painter, and visited his studio and in— he lives in Newcastle, and so I pointed up, um, and, and so, and when I remember when I went in there, he got this huge—

Josh: I thought he lived above you.

Ryan: Yeah, he's just, he's just like hanging onto the ceiling. Um, uh, yeah, and I was walking to his studio and he has all these massive canvases just like set up all around him, and you can kind of see the— you could see the footprints covered in paint, like walking from canvas to canvas and just like going like, I'm going to paint a bit here today, and then walking over there, paint a bit here today. And then at some point, all those paintings will be a show, and that'll go into a room, and then he'll just start working on another show. No one has to give him permission. He can just paint. Yeah. And that was just— that was so— and, and it— his inspiration just comes from whatever he's feeling at that moment of his life. And then after like 20 years, he's got a body of work which is sort of a diary of sorts.. And that really interested me. And some of the stuff I do on this will be that, on the website will be that, and some of it will just be like completely just non-sequitur things, like just ideas, you know, which is both, both are exciting.

Tommy: I think it's so, it's such a new human quality to want to understand and be able to categorise or what's right, what's wrong. And when it, in art, you cannot say anything about it.

Josh: Well, I feel like it's system. Don't you think that, like, for me, I feel like what you're doing, Rye, is the human bit. I think it's like, that's the child, you know, childlike playing with toys and using things in different ways. And then over time, we're like, okay, we need all of this structure. And so, it's almost like trying to work out how do we go against what we've been told and actually do the more human thing, maybe.

Ryan: Yeah, I think that's a great point. I mean, you can— and it's hard to do that probably when the goal is to just either be famous or be rich, because that's so often the goal for people. And when that's your goal, it's— you tend to base your decisions on what you think people want, not what is actually true.

Josh: And so, how do you do it? Because obviously there's a privileged position of Having gotten to a point where you are now, where it's like you don't have to make every decision based on a financial outcome, do you have any thoughts on how someone who is getting started could find a balance between business and art?

Ryan: Well, I think if you really wanted— I mean, like, you get a job. Your fucking minutes come. Get a fucking job.

Tommy: At least JobKeeper or JobSeeker.

Ryan: Yeah. No, but you can do both. Like, you can, I think, because what I'm doing is both. Like, I have a, I still have a job. Like, I still, we have our production company, which is, yes, not everyone can just start a production company and get paid for it. But that just happens to be my, the way I get my money. That is just my job. I love it, luckily, but it's there. But then I also make sure I give myself time to do the other thing that kind of that I just want to do.

Josh: Do you think that's harder to be able to, like, because I feel like because there is so many, it's not like you're packing shelves at Woolies. Do you think that it actually can be a trap that when you do the work like the production company, there's so many similarities to the pure art that you can fall into actually not executing on the things that you want to do?

Ryan: For sure.

Tommy: For sure.

Ryan: But I think if you really want to be creative and make stuff, you have to make time for it. And there is time. Everyone's got time to do it because it doesn't have to be a big thing. It can be a small thing. So, I totally understand that it's difficult for people to self-motivate. I always have trouble self-motivating, and that was sort of the reason behind doing the website because I knew that if I didn't do it, then people would be disappointed or I'd be disappointed in myself. So, I definitely think that the key for me at least is to have both. If I didn't have a job and I was just doing the website, I would find that difficult. But if I— and vice versa.

Josh: Why do you think that is?

Ryan: Well, because I'd be stressed about money. And then if I'm stressed about money, then the anxiety goes up. And then when your anxiety is up, it's sort of harder to be kind of creative and to actually, you know what I mean? Like it's— I think you have to have that, you have to have that balance and there is a way to do both. But you just have to, you just got to sort of really just think about how you can do both because there's just got to be a balance in the same way that you've also got to have a balance of You've got to be working, you've got to get money. That's just the way it is. But then you've also got to do your passion, but then you've also got to spend time with family and friends. Like, you've got to have all those things. If you don't have one of them, you're going to feel a bit off. Well, I do.

Josh: It feels like, GB, you've spoken a bit about the prioritisation lately and how you prioritise. Yeah.

George: Like, how are you managing your time then? For example, with the at-home alone together, 4 weeks or whatever it was, how are you?

Ryan: 8 weeks, sorry.

George: 8 weeks. Jeez, that went quick. How did you manage your time with the 11th and that sort of thing?

Ryan: I just stayed up really late every night. Like it was, I just, I was in, so I've been working in this studio, like in studio, it's a shed. So just working in the shed and I've just got like this tiny little like heater, which I put like like 30 centimetres from my body because it's so cold and I just had to work really late. I just had to work. And I know that if I didn't have the website, I absolutely would just, would have just done the ABC show and that would have been fine. Like, that would have been great. But because I had this deadline every month that I had to do stuff, then you just have to. I set myself a system which meant that I had to do the work. And sound— when I say the work, it makes it sound like it was a chore. I love doing it. But sometimes you do have to make a bit of a sacrifice and it's not always, but you might a week here and there you have to do long nights and work really hard. But I feel like if you really— if you believe in what you're doing, then the rewards are there, I think.

Tommy: And the one thing for certain is that there will be a level of uncomfortability. And so the, the hard bit about the fame, or someone looking to somebody who is doing something that they want to be at, and they're looking potentially at the reward that someone's getting based on the effort they're putting in. You know, if you wanted to be a movie star or an actor and you're looking to Tom Cruise, that guy would work his fucking ass off. Like, that he's doing— he's looking at learning how to fly a helicopter as well as learning his lines as well as all this other stuff. You know, it's, it's— I think that is the one bit that is overlooked at, and that is knowing that it will be uncomfortable, whatever it is. The good life that you want will be an uncomfortable journey to, to get there, and you might not even get there. Yeah, it will just be an uncomfortable journey.

Ryan: Yeah, and, and I think the idea of the good life has been taken over by fame and money, and, and people Most people believe that the only way to a good life is with, you know, you need to be successful or rich or something like that. But I just, I'm just so confident that that's not the case.

Josh: What is the good life, do you think?

Ryan: I think it's different for everyone. I think it depends. I think it's just about figuring out what is, what makes you happy, you know, whether it be if you have kids, if it's like spending time with your kids. Then that's— that can be the good life. Like, you can have a good life and not heaps of money if you've got a good family. In the same way that if you love travelling, not these days, but if you love travelling and you can manage, you've got enough money to do that, that can be the good life as well. It's so subjective that people catch themselves, like so many— that's why I think so many people have so much trouble finding a career, or because often there's bound to be someone in your life that's saying, what are you going to do for your career? What are you going to do at uni? What's your thing? And we're just constantly told these things which are true for some people, but not true for everyone. And everyone just gets sort of painted with the same brush that you've got to you've got to make money or, you know, depending on where you've grown up or what your influences are, you've got to be famous or you've got to have a big house or you've got to, I don't know, have a second house, whatever it might be. It's just none of it is true, but then also none of it is false. It just depends on what your thing is. And I think you've just got to be truthful to yourself and listen to yourself and try and block out what other people are telling you is is the good life.

Josh: How do you, um, how do you turn it into— that was great.

George: What a monologue.

Ryan: Snippet for sure.

Josh: Definitely a snippet. Yeah, I mean, how do you, um, how do you turn it into a paintbrush that you can help people use? So talking about everyone sort of painted with the same brush, that we've got a system that is driven, as you said, about money and fame What have you found to be true that's not, you know, necessarily prescriptive, but could be a tool to get closer to what you think you should be doing?

Ryan: Phew. Well, one thing that's been really helpful for me is like speaking to a psychologist. Speaking to someone is, I just think it's just been one of the greatest things I've done. And most people think that you should only do it if you're unwell, but it's just not— whether it's a psychologist or any sort of therapist, like even like some sort of career coach or whatever, someone to talk to who can help you get to the bottom of who you actually are, not the person that you think you should be necessarily. So, for me, it's been that and it's been like reading a bunch of books and just sort of having a midlife crisis.

Josh: But it almost should be a completely different phrase, though, shouldn't it? It's like a midlife awakening for you.

Ryan: Yeah, it is. And it's pretty common, I think, around my age. I'm 38, and I think it's a pretty common time to sort of start, you know, questioning everything. But yeah, and I, you know, 10 years ago, if someone had said to me, go see a psychologist, I would have said, there's no way I need to. What a waste of money and time.. And now I can sort of smugly say that it's a great thing. But I understand that people would think they don't need to go. Maybe they don't. But after having seen someone for maybe a year, I think a year and a half or something, I kind of feel now that everyone would benefit from speaking to someone if they can. It's just the greatest thing to try and figure out what you should actually be spending your days doing. Because if you don't really know or if you don't have a good sense of that, which is, it's really, it is hard to find that, to find what that is. But otherwise you just get sucked into the vortex of, you know, you convince yourself that you should be doing this because that person is doing it or you should be doing this because that person got a lot of money for doing that. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's why I'm just so excited about what you guys are doing as well, because it just feels so authentic and real. And, and, you know, you're doing it because you just— you can't not do it, is what is the perception. That's what I feel like. It's what it looks like, at least. Uh, and that's—

Tommy: oh, we're unhappy.

Josh: That's so sad.

Tommy: No, but if you could be— if you can be— so, uh, if you could be happy in what you deem as unsuccessful, then you'll be very happy when you are in a place of somewhere you think is success, right? And so, and that's not to say that you need to look at your situation and go, this is all fucked, but I can still be happy. It's like, I think it just shifts the, the view on being unsuccessful away from that to something that it's like gives it less meaning, gives it less care. And you can, you know, that is meditation. That's the practise of now, the practise of, you know, being more in control of that monkey mind.

Ryan: Yep. Yeah. I mean, it's meditation for some people, but like, I can't do meditation. Like, I've tried it so many times and I wish I could, but I just can't do it. And I probably haven't given it a good enough go. But I guess everyone's, you know, even sort of broadening it to like mindfulness, it can be so many things for people. It can be playing sport. You know, if you have that thing that puts you in the— I only realised that actually a little, a few months ago. I remember when I used to play like team sports, I used to just have such a good time and afterwards I used to just feel great. And I only realised recently it was because when you're playing team sport, you're completely present. You're just so in the now. It's really hard to think about other things in your life when you're having to be so alert and aware. And it's And it's probably the same as like doing a radio show or doing a podcast. You can't help but be fully present. And for a lot of people, like, that would be a meditation of sorts. Like, that's a— that's like, I remember when I used to do, you know, radio on Nova, there was a lot about the overall job that I didn't— that wasn't really for me. But the time on air, like that 2 hours on air, was just electric because it's just so much going on and you're present. You're not really thinking about your worries or thinking about the bills or thinking about the car that you have to get fixed. You know, you can just be right in the moment. And that is almost a form of meditation, I guess. I don't know.

Josh: What do you think about the phrase, you aren't your work or you aren't your job? What do you think about that?

Ryan: Wrong. I think, I guess that's 100% true. But it depends on what you deem as your work or your job. Like some people would happily say that they are their work. But—

Josh: Because you take a lot of pride from your work. But I guess there is— There's, I guess there's a little bit of a difference, isn't there? Like there's a way that you've been able to somehow, I'm just trying to identify how you've been able to reconcile the bit which is like I'm a level of detac— You need detachment to be able to ship something because most people, everything's stuck to them. And so, them putting something out is connected to them. So, what is that?

Ryan: Well, I mean, I'm absolutely— I've only read like bits and pieces about this sort of stuff, so I Careful not to sound like an expert. That's probably too late. I sound like a bit of an expert.

Josh: You are an expert.

Ryan: But I think with that, it's sort of like when you attach the thing that you do to yourself and that becomes your identity, then you expose yourself to being— So, for example, if you make a podcast and you put the first episode out and you've— and that's like, this is me, like, you know, this is the thing. I need people to like this. Because if they don't and if they do, then you feel great. So, if you attach yourself to these things and this is like ego. So, if you attach yourself to the thing that you do, then you— the good is just as bad as the bad. Because if you buy into the good, So, if you— So, for example, I put out Loophole and if the response is really good and I've sort of attached myself to that, which is really hard not to do, but if you attach yourself to that, then I'm just like, "Yes, I'm brilliant. You know, I'm so smart and funny and people love me." If I buy into that—

Josh: That's going to be a Twitter quote just out of context.

Ryan: Well, no, we'll make sure you put this one in as well. If people fucking hate it and like watch it and go like, you indulgent piece of shit, who the fuck do you think you are making us spend 35 minutes watching your fucking love project? Then I'll also believe that and just think like, people hate me. People think I'm shit. I'm past my prime. I was good in the olden days, but now I've lost it. Like, that's— they're the thoughts that I would definitely have. But if you—

Tommy: That's what we're going to put. I was good in the old days, but I've lost it.

Ryan: Another tweet.

Josh: And so then do you just have to do— so where does feedback sit then?

Ryan: Where does feedback sit? All those quotes are true depending on the day, by the way. Sorry, Josh, I talked over you.

Josh: Yeah, where does the feedback sit then?

Ryan: Well, I mean, if I'm doing what I wanted, how I would like it to be is just if people are enjoying it, great. And if they're not, fine. Like, let's not take it personally. I think the term in like psychology is, I think it's called, well, my psych calls it absorption, when you absorb something and you And you personalise it pretty much. So, if somebody doesn't like the thing that you did, you take it as they don't like you, which is just not true. But we believe that is the case because we attach ourselves to the things that we do. And we believe that the things that we do are our identity, which they're not, apparently. So, in an ideal world, in an ideal world, I can enjoy the good comment, the good feedback. And know that, oh, good. Well, people had a good time while they were watching it. But the bad feedback is like, that's fine too. Like, that's okay for people not to like something I did. It's— and the goal is to not take it personally and not to then think that people don't think I'm funny or don't think I'm worth or worthy of making stuff, because then you just get into a bit of a spiral and you can't keep making. And that's That's a tragedy because then you can't do the thing that you love.

Josh: Makes a lot of sense. Um, very quickly on the editing, I want to ask about editing because when you do something that has a bunch of, uh, improv in it, uh, editing can change things a bunch. What's your deal when it comes to editing? Are you involved? Do you have great editors that you work with?

Ryan: Well, this year I've kind of done a lot of the editing myself. Like, I've— for the website, I'm reluctant to ask people to do too many favours for me. So, I sort of just figured out— I already kind of basically knew— well, I sort of learnt how to basically edit on Final Cut 7 when we first started out. And then, I never actually edited, but I'd always sit with Tim, who I work with, and I just always watch people edit. So, I kind of figured out the basics. And then I tried Premiere this year and realised that it's like basically the same as Final Cut 7. So, I kind of intuitively knew how to do it. So, I just, you know, did a lot of YouTubing and figured out things when I got stuck. But for Loophole, most of the editing was done by Ben Timoney, who directed it and shot it. I did little things, but he did the bulk of it. But with the impro stuff, it was That was tricky. And also we didn't have a proper sound person there. Like there was no one recording sound. We just had live sound.

Josh: It sounded great. That was one thing that I picked up on was how good it sounded.

Ryan: Well, that is because the sound mixer did an amazing job. Pretty much.

Josh: Yeah.

Ryan: Because there's a lot of, there's obviously a lot of screaming and a lot of yelling and there was no one monitoring the levels at all. So, the raw audio was a mess. Like, it was horrible.

Tommy: Really? That's a magician right there. If that was the case, it sounds amazing. Uh, well worth, uh, it's an ISO, uh, treat. 35 minutes, it's not long enough. After you watch it, I could have watched another 35. No longer than that, though.

Josh: No longer.

Ryan: No, no, I feel like 35— people say like, don't make your videos longer than 35 minutes. I feel like that's So, yes, but no, it is. It really is. I'm just so excited that people can see it now because it's just, it sort of represents this great week in my life where I feel like it sort of represents a moment in my life where things shifted quite significantly. So, just from that point of view, like, you know, people will get it, some people will not. But just as a time capsule, it feels really nice to have it out there, even for the 5 of us who made it, um, it's sort of a really cool time capsule of this week that we had together. And, and from that point of view, it's— it feels really exciting.

Tommy: Well, if you're watching it, uh, if you go and watch it, take a photo of you watching it and— or screen grab it and tag Ryan on Instagram so he knows that people listen to the show.

Josh: That's a great idea. Does your psych watch your videos?

Ryan: Yeah, she did, actually. She watched. Yeah, the first couple of— Well, the first couple of videos I did on ryan.com was— They were very— Probably the most self-reflective stuff I've ever done. And so, I sent her those ones and I sent it to her and she— Her reply in capital letters was just, "INTERESTING." Invoice.

Josh: Invoice 006.

George: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: Interesting.

Ryan: But she's, she's, I think because she's not sort of based on what I was saying before, because she's not one for heavy praise or heavy criticism, she didn't really say that was brilliant. But that's probably because she's a psychologist.

Josh: Oh, great. But you didn't absorb it. Great.

George: Yeah.

Ryan: They're looking after me.

Josh: Awesome. It's Ryan with 11 Y's, which is based on— So, there's loophole. Oh, sorry, sorry, Josh. No, no, you go. So the idea behind the 11 Whys?

Ryan: Yeah, well, it's just because there's 11— it's on something released on the 11th of every month, and there'll be 11 things in the year that I put out because I missed January.

Josh: There's not long to go.

Ryan: Yeah, there's only 5 left. Yeah.

Josh: Thank you, Ryan Shelton, for coming on the podcast. I always feel inspired and Fired up.

Ryan: So, that was awesome. I love, like I said, I love coming on this and just so we all remember and now on the record, I am the 1,000th show. So, when you come to 1,000, I've booked, I'm booked in that.

George: Yeah.

Josh: Oh, perfect. Definitely.

Tommy: We should do one around a fire with skivvies on.

Josh: Well, that's not, that's actually not that far away. Hang on, 1,000. Yeah, it's going to come. Yeah, definitely. I could get skivvy ready. Yeah, I mean, George has skivvies now.

George: Yeah, I got a turtleneck. I bloody love it. It's great.

Ryan: Oh, how good is that?

George: So good. I'm gonna get more, actually. Got it from Uniqlo, and I'm gonna get 2 or 3 more. Same.

Ryan: Yeah, I've got one from Uniqlo.

George: Must be the same one. Maybe for next year.

Josh: Did you know that, George?

George: No, I didn't know that.

Josh: And so—

Ryan: I was wondering where my skivvy went.

Josh: And so, Rye, would you also do us a favour Um, GB, you can do the ask about coming on the podcast.

George: Oh yeah, you want to come on my pod— Do you want to come on my podcast, Hump Day Replay, at some stage?

Ryan: I would bloody love to.

George: Oh, what an honour. That'd be amazing.

Ryan: No, honestly, like, because you do a recap, don't you?

George: Yeah, so I was doing a recap video each week, Hump Day Replay.

Ryan: Love them, so good.

George: That's— Thank you so much. But, um, I missed one and it was like, I felt so bad about it. It was the worst feeling.

Ryan: You missed one of the weeks.

George: I missed one of the weeks. So, then we turned it into a podcast. So, the week after we started a podcast called Hump Day Replay. On the first episode, Jack Post was my co-host, which was great. Awesome. And it's just like flexing a new muscle, not flexing, working a new muscle.

Ryan: No, no, no, it's flexing.

Josh: It's flexing. You're flexing.

George: I'm just, yeah, I'm learning. So, but I've resonated with everything you've said in this, in this podcast, and I'm feeling super inspired too.

Ryan: At least one of us has.

Josh: Tommy's not feeling it.

Tommy: No, mate, I fucking love—

George: I love—

Tommy: I feel like you're a new Ryan. Like you've said, you had the awakening. Like I 100%— I've known you for quite a few years, not on the sort of relationship we've got now. It's, you know, we're best mates. Aren't we, Ryan? No, but like, the content you even put out, like, from afar, and even knowing you, I think you're a new Ryan.

George: I love it. I love—

Tommy: you're so open and honest, and, um, which is motivating on the other side of that, which, without you trying to say, hey, here's me motivating you.

Josh: Yeah, it's awesome.

Ryan: Oh, thanks, Tommy.

Josh: Yeah, thanks, Ryan. It's a daily talk show. See you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.