0:04
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 766. And we've got Timbo rave.

0:12
Welcome,

0:13
Frank boys fresh from No sir. No, sir. How's it going? How's it going? Man? I'm bit jealous. You've I mean, you've been out there in isolation for since it's happened, I mean you live there.

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That's not isolated, isolated. It's good man. It's incredible luck goes to sign off. We've got video of Hastings street that actually empty no people no car. Yeah. When was the last time you would have got that? Like never. Yeah.

0:35
And then if you're a local that serves you just that is. That is the dream. Timbo. You're one of the big podcasters I reckon you're one of the very first podcasts that I've listened to. Wow. I remember an episode specifically you're talking to a guy who owns a toll ship company is all about outsourcing. I think it was around the day of the four hour workweek when I sort of got into that Joshua Got into that we had no business really get into that we probably like 19 Yep, there's nothing to sell.

1:04
Yeah, but I still remember that like experience of the podcast before. And then I mean, Josh has been listening to podcast for 15 years. Well, I feel Yeah, small business big marketing being your podcast. It's a it's a very long time you've been doing it for and I feel like there's been a rise you started off with a co host and then you've gone on doing it on yourself. Is there Yeah, I can guess. I mean, I do have the mixer. What what's your perspective of podcasting? Seeing all the changes? Do your eye roll with everything that's happening or like what what things are cyclical and what's

1:42
what's what's new, you know, I just look at podcasting. I think it's an incredible medium. I just, it blows my mind when I first came across it. 12 years ago, my show, the Small Business big marketing shows 11 years old, but when I discovered podcasting 12 years ago, I was like, I as someone who always wanted to have a radio show, I was like, now I can actually have my own show, it'll be a podcast. So I could see that. And the other thing I could see is a marketing guy who was particularly interested in helping small businesses, but it was that all of a sudden, business owners could have their own show. And it was going to be very inexpensive to create. And if you create a good quality content, then you're going to create a platform to build your brand to build your personal brand, to drive traffic to your website, or your store, or whatever it is. And I'm like, this is incredible. But I've always said, as a small business marketing guy, there's never been a better time to market your business. And one of the reasons I say that is because there are things like podcasting that are so accessible to us back then, and even now, and I just think, Wow, what a time we live in imagine 20 years ago saying you can have your own show. Yeah, I mean, 11 years ago for a content marketing approach. I mean, was that a big thing back then? Like what? Yeah, that term has been pretty bait now is that you need a content marketing approach. You need a content strategy. Yeah. But no, no, back then. It wasn't. No, it wasn't like we know we all had to get YouTube channel and a podcast and a blog and Enable gonna, you know, social media, but no, but it was all sort of slowly coming together. And it's pretty exciting times and I would say to anyone listening either who wished they had a business or have a business and were wanting to create a content strategy and in this case, podcasting, like the boat hasn't left the shore, you know, so many. There's a real limiting belief now around businesses are too late to start a podcast. It's just not true. You know, like Jeff Bezos from Amazon. Only in recent years talked about Amazon being in day one. This is one of the biggest companies in the world, right. So and that's incredible to say, I feel like podcasting is like in its second hour, in terms of its growth, and there is much more, we're just, you know, we're at the start of something. So if someone was listening, then lose a lot in your limiting beliefs and have a crack.

3:48
So do you think that the podcasting has changed at its core? Or do you think it's the same as it was when you started?

3:55
I think fundamentally, it's the same. I think there is a lot more I mean, might I was just ranking number one In arches, you know, I could stand on my head and not talk and I could rank number one on iTunes back in the day What did it mean then? One ranking one for my business or what do I mean business numbers like what was it? What did it do for you at that point? Because now number one is like stroke my ego

4:16
Yeah, yes. Still doing that.

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told me it's not I'm very

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humble.

4:23
I'm full of humility. Where we was number one,

4:27
isn't it? I mean, that's one thing I always think when Gary Vee taught like it when you yelling that you're humble like it's sometimes

4:36
you don't need to yell at but I mean, so you can get to number one in the charts. Now you could be a celebrity that starts a podcast in the first week their trailer for this show will be number one and I don't know if it translates to downloads or what what did you make sense of it back then? Back then I look at it list now. It was much less important to me now and I'll tell you why in a minute. But back then, look, it was you know, proof of concept. I think Just a minute. I mean, again, like I used to look at iTunes, prior to having a podcast, iTunes was this big thing owned by Apple, that I could never be a part of, you know, and then all of a sudden I see my, my album artwork is number one, you know, above companies like Harvard Business Review, or Seth Godin, or, you know, these guys who again, like I held in such high esteem, and what it was proving to me was, as small business owners, which I wasn't still aim, we can now punch way above our marketing weight. Okay, so again, limiting belief or, you know, I could never beat those guys where you can, because the challenge is when it's a creative challenge, the challenge is not to get a podcast, we can all get a podcast and to your question, now, what's changed a lot more people are getting podcasts and there's a bit of a laugh, you know, who hasn't got a podcast, but the reality is, we can all get it. The creative challenges, as you guys would know is to make it the best in your category. When you started, were you I mean, you've got a solid marketing background. But then you like to pull people in where it's like as we like to not be the smartest in that And we get people who know a lot more in it. And then it's you know, it's just been curious to learn. Yes, you've since gone on to write books Boomerang marketing. This boomerang effect boomerang effect. I mean, and where do you see because now there's a push submit yourself as an expert. And so what's what's your sort of vibe on people with that as their first approach? I need a cement myself as the expert wherever I am. Don't just think, you know, there's that great saying, Don't tell me you're funny. Tell me a joke. Right? Because

6:31
I say I'm a funny. Well, listen.

6:38
Because, you know, the reality is, I mean, it's a lot of experts. Everyone's an expert, you know,

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for leaders,

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thought leaders, opinion leaders, you guys all this stuff. And I just think well, show me in your actions. And so for me, and I, you know, one of the things it was interesting, here we go, we'll get honest here. You know, in back in the day when I started the Small Business big Marketing Show, I consider myself a marketer and an ik marketer, not the best marketer certainly going around, but an OK marketer. And then

7:08
I had a realisation that you know what I am not going to I'm going to stop putting myself out there as a great marketer necessarily, but as someone who can connect the dots, and if that meant bringing someone into the studio and getting their opinion, on an area of marketing, I didn't understand then I was really cool with that. So, my mindset in the early days, which was marketing experts slowly pivoted to the fact that, you know, I'm almost a journalist and journalistic cringe because I haven't done any training as a journalist. But now I'm like the reporter, and I'm really cool with that. And I can still offer and I can still offer my marketing advice, but it took the pressure off, you know, yeah, I'm interested in good quality conversations that are going to move people forward. And in my case, grow their business through smart marketing. And if I can impart that myself, awesome. If it requires me to have a guest who's gonna do it a whole lot better. Awesome, right on what is it right on the shoulders of giants?

7:56
Did you have to learn to step back because I can imagine, especially When you are taking on something that you do know a bit about, you sort of hear like I was listening to a business podcast the other day, and it turns into the interviewer just sort of deconstructing the person's business and giving advice rather than an interview. Was that something that you had to learn to come to it with the posture of interviewing it?

8:19
Yeah, I've received the odd bit of flack over the years. So there's two parts to this, Josh. One is, I have learned that my listeners actually do like to hear what I have to say. I did my 500th Episode A few weeks ago, and it was just me answering questions for about an hour and a half. And people really appreciate it because I try I've actually made an actively tried to step back into this, let my guests do the talking. But I feel like you know what, if I've got something to say, and I feel like it's going to add value to the listener and their business, then I will say it. So I do that. The other part is I actually I'm really interested in in the art of interviewing, not just something I'd love to just practice and get better at and so there are people in the media that I watched both here and overseas and then one day one of my favourite interviewers of recent years has been Richard Stubbs when he was on the ABC on ABC Radio in Melbourne, who's an excellent conversationalist. He was funny, he had heart he listened he would kick back if need be. So I got into the studio and asked him I said, this is going to be an episode of the Small Business big Marketing Show about interviewing for all those business owners who want to create content described but I want you to treat this as like a coaching session with me. And every time I mock up, I openly just tell everyone you know, so you know, he really got stuck into me which was awesome, you know, got to listen more. One of the best things best bits of advice he was was lead with your best. Always lead with your best. What does that mean? Your best whatever it is, you've got to say in an episode, Lee, that you think is your best piece of content, your best piece of advice, your best guest if it's like got three guests in it one show, always lead with your best because people aren't going to hang around.

10:05
It's interesting because like, there's there's the other thought around listening because I feel like I've fallen into the trap of being a guest on a show and being like, there's a certain thing I want to say. And almost not listening to the question or try. You hear it in politicians, right? It's like, it doesn't matter what the question is, they're gonna fucking say that. Besides, they want to say, is there a way of doing that to have UK messages but also simultaneously be listening as a guest?

10:32
Yeah. I think

10:34
if you go in to an interview with a whole bunch of key messages, then that's what's going to be front of mind and you're just going to be looking for the openings to see when can I get that first one out? You know, I think the better thing to do is let the interview take its course as a guest in the hope that your interviewer

10:52
has done their homework and so the stubs he stuck the stuff on that's more for hosts was this idea. Yeah. For me it was a hot Yeah, absolutely. And so it's it's because we do a terrible job at sort of explaining who our guests and we sort of do that in a way which is like if you're at a party I fucking hate heat like what do you do doing those classic things I'd much prefer to be like, let's just get to know let's have a conversation and then if you know you can google someone you can find out more you can ask him right yeah. And so that specific comment what does that what does that translate to as a as a host?

11:27
What comment about so

11:28
around the lady with the best content so like,

11:32
if I've got a guest like I had a guest in this morning on my show, and I knew that he I 19 businesses 13 businesses before he left uni. Now I could have started somewhere else, but I went straight to that because that's really interesting like that. How How, how did you get one property much less 13 after studying for years of uni, like how and why go and like this, get that out of That that gets that's really interesting. I'm expecting a pretty good answer from him because it's not just gonna happen unless he was born with a silver spoon, which I knew he wasn't. And so then I mean, the listeners are in because I'm just representing the listener like you guys are just representing the listener you know, we should be and thinking well, what am I going to be

12:19
when we get on we'll let you know

12:20
Well, yeah, celebrate Celebrate that. Yeah. Yeah. I remember looking at your site as an example of something I wanted to build back in the day. I don't know what it was for but I you know, the amount of sites I've built that haven't done nothing.

12:41
How much did you spend on that flash site are 10 grand,

12:43
right. That was back in the day. Yeah, that was stripping business. I was I had a stripping business back in the day I had a paid a business coaching. You know, I've had it all.

12:52
really had nothing

12:54
but had nothing. I looked to your website, side note, Josh has built your site back in the day. Yeah, you're not the current one, not the current one. The first one. I always I was always wondering, looking at your content and listening to your content, podcast, thinking, What's your business model? And has he making money? Because if he's making money, I want to be doing what he's doing. Yeah. And so is that been something that's evolved for you? Yeah. And where did it start and what has been the sort of pivotal shifts. So

13:27
when I started podcasting, I had a marketing consultancy, it was just me. It was called the ideas guy, and I was the guy who would come in and generate ideas to help you grow your business through attracting more of the right people more often. And I was just one on one. It was just me I didn't have a lot of clients because I just was managing it was sort of half lifestyle business half kind of, you know, might be able to grow this was a lifestyle business. Maintain means I can do what I want when I want as opposed to beat because I've worked in like big agencies forever.

14:00
freelance, do you think like, can you have a lifestyle business as long

14:03
as, as long as you're a prisoner to it, as long as it's not, you know, like, you have to be there all the time. And I kind of went into my own business in order for me to call the shots as opposed to have someone you know, like, working big agency land as long as you know, I'm gonna sneak out at three. I wonder who's watching. I don't want anyone watching any more. Yeah, like, I'll do what I want. When I want. I'll get the job done. If I can get the job done by 11 awesome. I'll go down the beach,

14:25
you know. And so you were doing that. Sorry. So yeah. So that wasn't that was a single person business that I yes, guy. Yeah, yes, it was it. So then I started

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the podcast and I started the podcast because I was given the opportunity to start a podcast, a great studio with great support. And I was like, I wasn't gonna say no to that. Right. So then that started, and it started to get traction. Now, for some reason, we had a co host back in the day Luke, and Luke and I got along really well. He was everything that I wasn't. He loved getting under the hood and seeing how everything worked. And I'm like, I'm just top line. Like wanting to understand people's stories and journeys, so we would clash on air and it made for interesting listening, we'd clash off air, and we'd have these fights is a big word, but we'd have these debate ideas. So that was really good. So we got traction, we got traction, so the rankings on iTunes would get listener reviews. People were emailing us and over time over the course of probably 12 to 18 months, it wasn't like, like so many podcasts about six episodes like got it, you got to push through guys. I think started to I got asked to speak at the odd event, which I hadn't done previously. I've done a bit of speaking when I was in advertising, but not much. So then that evolved. And all of a sudden, so your question, really, to me is like, how do I how do I monetize my show? And how have I over the 11 years, right? Yeah, and even just understanding your business?

15:48
Yeah, well, this is the business model has evolved. So, you know, my big break outside of podcasting, we started to get sponsors. I went to I'd go to conferences and expos and identify businesses that were trying to attract small businesses. Is whose presence and brand that I liked and I would approach them got some sponsors signed up. So that was starting to pay its way. Did you have a sense of what success look like, at that time? No, not then. And then I got a phone call one day I suppose it was my big break because monetizing a podcast or content isn't necessarily like some people go off it's just a traffic channel to sell your own stuff which it could be your courses or your products, whatever you want to do. For me it was about getting a third party sponsor because at the time I had nothing to sell outside of my coaching my my marketing coaching services. And then I got a phone call one day from a woman who said and I was picking up my kids outside school and it was man is traffic going everywhere. I took this call she said you don't know me. I want to know you spoke like that. And we're gonna confuse

16:52
dresses versus death.

16:54
That's not pretty because usually

16:56
by himself is not pretty

16:59
anyway Grace she got ya got a Claudia knows you. And I listened to your podcast and I want to know whether you do an eight to an eight city roadshow. And I'm like, I don't know what a roadshow is. She was from a speaker's bureau. I don't know what a speaker's bureau is. Long story short, this client flew me out to Sydney. It was a big insurance company flew me up to Sydney to meet me. And we got along very well. They booked me for this eight city roadshow, where I got to give an hour's keynote in front of the audience has never done that before. It went really well. And I got signed by the speaker's bureau as a speaker and I didn't I didn't even know that stuff existed. So then, that part of my business model established itself and really took off. So then I had good sponsorship and my podcast every now and then I'd create a product. I do workshops and so that there has been a hot end and I write my book, the boomerang effect, and there's been a whole lot of different ways of monetize this and it's all

17:55
I wouldn't say by accident, but it's it's actually organically involved. evolved. It feels like the partnership thing is hard like Tommy and I had epic blow ups like we're talking about it. Like we had yet the Best Types of blobs. I think that doing a podcast is an extra level, like there's having a business partnership. And then there's having a podcast where it's like, you are representing different ideas on air, and then people have something to say about what you're saying and all of that sort of stuff. Have you gotten any clarity? Looking back on partnerships around what partnerships work? Yeah, I like don't

18:31
Yeah, big time. So it's an up boys. We're ready. Luke and I I think we're successful because what I said he's everything that I wasn't. And I think that makes that's interesting, because I don't like I personally don't like and again, I'm here to represent the listener. I don't like people agreeing all the time. He just agreed. Don't agree.

18:51
I know. You're fucking wrong.

18:54
That's interesting. Yeah,

18:54
wrong. I just think that it was that was being nice, right? Okay, after money,

19:02
kind of look in the eye when you're

19:04
trying to switch, you know?

19:08
So there is there is that part of it. And just, Luke and I, and we would be honest, you know, sometimes on air because people couldn't say we're on video, but you know, without my show we weren't, we went on air, and video and so like, sometimes I just go, like, I've just been totally disappointed I just, Michelle, because I'd be asking my guests right off. So we the idea for the business come from like, how did you get that to market? And the guest is about to answer and look at come and go.

19:37
Yeah. And and how much should you spend on AdWords in that first week? And I'm like, You're kidding me. Like, and I'll be I'll be holding the fist back at Luke, you know, and then he'd be laughing and I'd be like, it's not funny. And then we'd have that discussion off here. So again, great hosts, co hosts, I think good communication. And be honest and say, Doug, nothing's personal here. We're just here to create the Based content and I go back to what I said earlier, it is a creative chill you're gonna start a podcast to make it successful is a creative challenge.

20:07
And so you need friction or you need tension within a

20:10
within a mission and you have friction, right Laurel and Hardy have friction The Two Ronnies have friction. You know Hamish and Andy, whilst I look as I get along, and they gripe my best of mines, Jaime, she's the clan, and he is the one swiping up afterwards and shaking his head and whether it's manufactured or real, it doesn't matter. They do it beautifully. And it's just interesting to have two different types of people to carry it.

20:33
I guess the one thing you can't avoid, though, in that is the visceral response to the two different sides. So when you're in the middle of that with Luke, it's like, sure, on the other side, it's like taken well, and people really respond to it or resonate with it because they're like, Oh, yeah, I'm on that side of that side. But there is the feeling that it's like doesn't feel wait Josh is pushing back. Even if he knows its content, it's still fucking annoying for you or vice versa. Well if I'm doing something you know it's like

21:02
it is real well but I guess there's a there's a point like you obviously made the decision were you like this is better me being able to do do the thing on your own what's the what's the right amount of friction then because obviously there was all myself Yeah, yeah. Like being able to like to decide to be like I'm gonna do this shit like

21:21
there wasn't looky looky after it episodes I couldn't see the future which you know we laugh about now but he's gone on to do good behind his back or with his

21:32
family behind his back but

21:36
you know he made that decision so it's pretty clear cut one yeah I would still love a co host I'm happy and i've you know for 400 plus episodes on pass a Luke finishing.

21:48
I'm very happy with where my podcast is at.

21:52
But there is something special about having a dynamic and someone to bounce off and argue with and you know, you're not carrying the cannon Hundred percent. You did say Josh that you do 95%. Yeah.

22:05
I do wonder about that, that Id with the the co host type of thing. So that frickin using the example of asking about the AdWords or whatever, and it's, it's a good moment. But obviously for you, it's like, in fact, the flow of wealth to

22:20
go with it. So in the moment, I don't pull Loki up and go, hang on. I've just asked like, he knows that he pays me off. And in doing so my Moodle slightly changed, which I think makes it interesting listening, you know, but it's still annoying.

22:35
It's cool.

22:36
We'll sort it out afterwards. Yeah. And so then what is if you were looking for a co host now, what are some of the things that you're looking at?

22:44
Two pretty interesting question because I haven't as much as I'd like one. I don't think there's one around the corner. So I haven't given a lot of consideration but again, it would be someone someone who's everything I'm not so whatever I am on what the opposite of that. So you know someone who's incredibly good looking You know, all that stuff, but I just think it's not gonna happen anytime soon. So I just let that guy, but every now and then I do pull in. I've had my daughter, my daughter Stephanie on two shows, because I just thought she'd add so much to the discussion with a business owner that I knew she had an interest in and be good to get that perspective. The girls from Kitt keep it clean. Yeah, right. Because Tiffany and Laura, you know, they're doing some pretty interesting things with the market of young girls. And I thought, you know, and I get a little bit pissed off at these and they very good those girls, so don't get me wrong, but there's some pretty big on social media. And I'm like, my question was, you know, they making young feels good about themselves or bad about themselves. And it's like coming from a 53 year old guy. That sounds a bit creepy. But if I brought my daughter in, she can ask those questions then and it work. You know that up front. Was that good content first, is that you lead with that question? No, I didn't because I felt as though I needed to establish rapport. Yes.

23:58
Yeah. Small Business versus startups, it seems like nowadays everyone wants to be a founder and a startup rather than a small business owner. What's been your perspective of that shift?

24:10
And also how much he's spending? Edwards on the first?

24:14
Right question?

24:17
Edwards. I look it is. I go back to fundamentals, you know, small business owner, startup entrepreneur, you know, it's just someone having a crack at someone identifying a problem and meeting it with a knee and filling it with a need and creating business from it. But he's a solution, I should say. BUTCHER

24:38
on a high street opening up next week. Yeah, they're not gonna be calling themselves a startup. Ah, no, although I interviewed Sam canning,

24:45
who is a butcher, butcher. Yeah. Great, man. Amazing, like amazing business. You like the book? Yeah. The bone

24:54
broth? They do. They do a broth that I when I was doing keto, I think that I did that. It was good. Yeah. Why'd you use the broth? just drank it

25:02
right? Okay. Cold water hot

25:07
Yeah, kind of why I'm gonna go to organic sausages as well

25:17
I don't know whether he would have used the word startup but he certainly approached that business in a way that probably most which has died I mean saying yeah big on interior design big on customer service bit you know using words like customer experience building a database you know he's he's doing a lot of funky stuff.

25:35
You don't use cash? Yeah, really? Yeah. Because I guess it's like a hygiene thing but I thought that was still using sawdust out there back now. Well, you think when you think about butchers or whatever you like, I don't know you just imagine like I thought that was an interesting Yeah.

25:48
Do you remember sawdust? No digress? base straight broaden? Did you ever go there? Yeah. And he remember the butcher in Bay Street. That sawdust all over the floor?

25:56
Well, it's pretty common. Real copper just absorbs the blood back Yeah, no. Well you

26:06
know last night I digress. I cook for my kids came down from Queensland and kitchen Melbourne. I had to cook for a seafood hater, a vegetarian and a vegan.

26:16
All three different people eggplant dish. I hide

26:19
eggplant, what do you Why is the

26:21
fleshy that's the piece of water you need to be getting the water out of it. So you need to add salt and then extract all of the dining clay with it.

26:34
wash it down with some broth.

26:37
Small Business. what point does it become a medium sized business doesn't matter?

26:41
Well, I mean, on some forms I've seen like up to 100 employees is still a very small business. It's like holy shit on micro. There is some weird definition of small business the government have which is a lot of employees and a high turnover. So

26:54
the job cable was like if you have revenue under a billion dollars or something If you're in that category, it's like yeah, but what

27:02
is what is interesting and doesn't include the daily talk show revenue, I think we did under that.

27:08
I was a marketing manager at flux into for a period of time. And what's interesting is that they subscribe to the idea that anything over 30 becomes unmanageable. And this is a an indigenous thinking that indigenous tribes would do this, whereas if over 30 people, you, you can't feed and water them and protect them. So you have to split I might have that number wrong. I want to say it might be I don't know, it doesn't matter, but there is a certain number, where if you keep growing it becomes unmanageable, people will die or suffer. So you split it so flight centre was very good at adhering to that and maintaining a small business mentality, which was that any anywhere in flight centre, there were tribes of 30 people and they were 30 and you have like four or five tribes which made a country and then six or seven tribes that might a nation. So it was sort of if you can imagine almost pyramid like and It just meant that the teams were small. Everyone could get looked after and be heard and attended to. and it kept you're hungry. travel agents.

28:09
Is there. Is there a space for travel agents in 2020?

28:13
I think there is, you know, once all this covert stuff is over.

28:17
You know, you're asking a 53 year old bloke who still likes to talk to people and eyeball people. And, you know, like, I made a phone call on the way here. really unusual. And I must say a lot of people, young people on the phone, I said,

28:30
you know what that is? Right.

28:32
Now. He actually, Mason said the other day, he made a phone call. He said, this is so much better than a man. Yeah. Because we pushed him into he doesn't do email, push out like a man. We set the KPI of 30 emails a day. He said, What do you want me to send? If I can get just send an email, he wasn't doing that. And

28:50
so I just think there is opportunities for businesses to continue to provide, I think as we become the book COVID stand or back into communities. You know, we We'd like that human interaction. And whilst I think it's amazing what you can do online without humans, and we're eyes taking it. So it's think that, you know, the idea of eyeballing someone is pretty special you would agree i'd interview face to face is better than one over zoom or over the phone and just get a bit of vibe, a better interaction a better energy. And yeah, I do think, you know, like travel agents, particularly bigger purchases, you know, I think you do want someone to be looking after that,

29:24
I guess, like it comes down to trust. And I think like there's been a few of those travel agents have gone under or like, it almost feels my perspective. I mean, I'm nearly 30. So I'm still pretty young like it the perspective is, I prefer to go direct to an airline, because then there's one less potential entity to ship the bed up to lose the money on the whole business thing and where we're going to sort of sit at the end of COVID. Do you think we're going to see a huge amount of small businesses go under, basically based on COVID? Or do you think that we're going to see it more at the bigger end?

29:59
I think a bit of both. Man, I'm surprised at how many I've just because I live in a small town in Queensland, you sort of don't get a sense of what's really going on having come to Melbourne. It's amazing. I'm seeing a lot of Felice signs you know Bay Street Brighton. Yeah, you know, stuff that just clearly closed down because of COVID which is really sad. And I think you know, businesses will too many businesses live hand to mouth. I don't know what really the solution is to then outside of get some money in the bank and like, don't you know, if you can't survive or die without income, then Gee, you know, have you made the right business and I look at some businesses, fact my son jack, sort of math science God, but when he did you 12, about five years ago, he did business management as his fifth subject. And so all of a sudden he's in the car with me and we're having business discussions up until when we hadn't done that and we drive past cafes or particular types of businesses. He got dead. How does that business make money? Why?

30:54
Tough everything to do with demonstrating the light, they at least they're they're paying at least 20 grand To the lace and then the baristas I'm fucking feel like it I don't understand and

31:04
it's like it's I'm like I never really I said look maybe they're happy to take a minimum wage maybe it's been a lifetime lifestyle decision which is you know I'm gonna run my own cafe my coffee and then go home doesn't work like maybe they have big corporate contracts that they're providing that we don't get to see from the retail perspective so but it is amazing it I just look at some businesses and just go Oh, good luck to you.

31:29
Hmm, tire kickers or just people who are full of shit. Like I feel like especially in the podcasting space, a lot of people saying the ganas I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. Have you having stayed with something for a long time? Have you got a good filter of when people are serious about the change that they're talking about versus the you know, the Ghana radish. I just I just listed out for Ghana, and if if that is the conversation, then I I go I'm really interested in action. Because I know that when I take action, we move things forward action creates reaction.

32:05
And I know that I can be prone to procrastination and it really shuts me. So I'm really interested in helping others not be like that and moving forward. So someone says, I'm going to do this, I'm gonna cool. Are you going to do it? Or are you going to do it? Well, what's stopping you from doing it now? What are you scared of? I just think it's a really interesting conversation. Because, again, there's a whole lot of reasons. We don't do things. It could be fear, it could be ego, it could be lack of money, lack of time, but whatever it is, let's identify it and move on. In fact, you know, I constantly reinforce that in my podcast, which is you know, guys, love your listening. Like, please never stop listening. But Gee, I'd love you to take some action. So I actually created a segment in my podcast called and the segments called the monster prize draw, which is pretty shit name, but the premise of it is, send me an email. Tell me one ID you've picked up from my listening to the Small Business big Marketing Show and what impact it's had on your business. And then you win a bunch of prizes, right? I've done that, because it's nice to give away stuff. But I really want to hear what you've implemented. And I want to reward you for that because we can listen to blue in the face. But if you don't implement in, it's kind of just been entertainment for a small business, that what that should be sort of picking up their marketing game. What do you think the the sort of easy win for business, a small business. So what small business doing and what is the easy win that there's money in the list? There's money in your existing client base, you know, you've got if you've got clients, they may want more of you. You know, I was speaking to a yoga instructor last weekend, and she'd come up to stay with a friend of mine. We live in Noosa. And she came up to stay with a friend and she said and she she does yoga classes. She does the old retreat, and that's her business. You know, it's a bit of a grind. She had one lady who she coaches who actually heard that this this lady this yoga instructor was coming out from the gold Kosta Newser for the whole week and wouldn't be able to do the one on one that she would normally do. So she, this lady was driving up to Noosa to have this one on one, right. So this is a client driving two hours, or three hours to have a one on one. So I was like I said to this yoga instructor, imagine how many other clients there are in your current pace, you would probably want to do that for which you can charge a premium because you're offering this one on one service. So there's a group of clients in every business that love what you do the raving fans who just can't get enough of you and will pay and want more of you. And whatever you do. So identify them it and even ask them just call them up and say, What more would you like for me? And so, you know, first of all, work to your client base. If you've got a list and every small business owner should have every single bit should have a list of email addresses and mobile numbers. start communicating with that list because there is money in the list. Okay, it's a way of having ongoing conversation. And the The other thing that I think many business owners should do, which they don't Who is your ideal client? I can't really clear and not demographically not like are there 30 to 50 year old professional women who are tertiary educated and earn over 100 grand a year that doesn't tell me much about them. I want to know, what keeps them up at night? What does success look like? What's the greatest fear? You know, what other brands do they love? And so when you know that type of stuff about your customer, you are going to be able to create marketing messages and products and services and offers that hit them between the eyes, and I don't think enough businesses sit back and go, who is it that we really, really want to sell to them? What are they like?

35:38
I remember the the quote, knowing isn't doing and I caught myself when I just started my business. I knew all this stuff about search engine optimization, I was helping all of my mates who were getting their businesses set up and they're like, ah, Josh, it's like working on getting all these clients. I thought I'll fuck I've got a video production business. And I haven't said any of this app. And so I went through an AI did all of this work? And so if you type in video production company, where up there on the top, what are some of the things that, you know, that you're currently not doing as a market?

36:11
Well, the, the place I've let myself down the most is not surrounding myself with a team ongoing. I've always it's always been me. And when I've needed something done, I've found a freelancer might have gone up work or Fiverr or asked my mates, you know, who could do this and come in and do it for a short period of time, but I've just never and I'm going to say I've never had the courage to just actually employ and be responsible for others and have them contribute to the growth of my business and I think it's because I was a shitty employee. And I figured that if that was like, I was like as an employee than anyone I employ is going to be like that and I don't want any more Tim rates

36:50
is it almost like trading people like a bit of a commodity, I guess like the gig economy and shit like that so I can get this thing done. And then that's eat versus The ongoing relationship

37:02
maybe? Yeah, look, I just think it was just it was just a poor decision. And it continues to be a poor decision. You know, I've just joined the podcast, one network for a number of reasons. But one is that I just am now surrounded by just guns in editing and production and social media and all that. And that's really exciting. And I should have done that. I should have surrounded myself two years ago, but I can't complain last year. Good. Have you had the right chat from people that want to be involved with what you do? Yep. Yeah, I get people saying, you know, is what can I do? You know, can I look after this or that? And yeah, sometimes I said, Yes. And then other times, just keep moving. But you know, I've got my business to a point where all that now coverts kind of completely stuffed because there's no conferences, like, you know, between 40 and 60 conferences a year as either a keynote or an emcee. So that's gone. And podcasting continues, which is good, and there's revenue there. And I'm actually being forced to pick I'm working on a new business idea with my girlfriend Sarah, that you No, I'm excited about so this is kind of freed me up to just think a bit more innovatively.

38:04
When, when something like COVID happens where you lose 60% of your revenue overnight? Does it put a firecracker up your ass or you know, pressure? What does it do me personally it hasn't kind of enjoyed it in a weird kind of way I don't have a salad if I'd got the virus, you know, I've been more affected, but

38:26
you know everyone's fact is that part of it?

38:28
It's nice to know that. Yeah, we're all in this together. Yeah, there's George and I are speaking this morning, just about it was a slow pace. There was not many cars on the road. It was beautiful. The pressure from building something and I feel like we're kind of getting back to that now. We're, we're, we're on the hill back up. And you know, it's only going back down where it was like it paused everything. There was no Hill to go up more. We weren't really kind of going back. It was either like

38:54
when you're in school, and you hear that no one else has done their homework walking We're all in the same room. We're in this, just stick

39:03
with me Listen to what I say. And so what did you do? So what was your reaction? Then when all these things happen? What did you learn about yourself? I'm really interested in slowing down. And I yeah, that's a function of my age, which I keep referring to. So clearly I have an issue

39:14
around it. Surely No, sir does it as well.

39:18
Yeah, there is a minut part of moving to Noosa was again, like,

39:22
people go actually back down in age when they move, running on the beach surfing every day.

39:28
It's called liposuction. And, and I kind of just I've always liked that idea of slowing down and exploring that and seeing what that means and being kind of a bit of a role model in that because I do represent small businesses in a sense, and I do see them running around manic and I think there's more to life. I'm not going to be on my deathbed wishing I'd worked longer hours, you know, I'm going to be definitely wishing I'd work shorter hours and I just think it's a really important thing to practice. I've quite enjoyed that and I will continue to enjoy it and I'll be interesting to see Whether the rest of the world, you know, with this kind of this two camps, you know, we're going to go back to a bad old ways, or are we actually going to learn from this and do things differently, a more of it's going to work from home and more employers are going to be cool, and trust and let people work from home, are we going to drive it? So we're going to want less? Are we gonna be really interesting and I'm going to I personally am going to make a decision to not go back to old ways and try and be kind of more chill.

40:28
It seems like a hard one. because on one hand, it's like, you talked about businesses, you know, going from day to day from a cash flow perspective, and only just surviving. And so the idea of potentially then making a decision based on lifestyle or working less, it feels like there's a there's a contradiction in those two ideas. How do we how can we possibly I guess it's, it's playing into that four hour workweek passive income like everyone wants that, right? We all want to be able to be like, yeah, I go to sleep. I've got a Shopify and you say the fucking Um,

41:01
what's the reality? Do you think that there's,

41:04
I think the reality is where you are in your life, you know, again, you know, there are people probably like you, Joshua, you know, building something, and you've been forced to take your foot off the pedal. Whereas really gonna, you might just want to go 100 miles an hour onto something, you know, I, you know, I had these dreams, and by the end of this year, I was gonna have this and then this is where I don't feel like that. And it's not because I have bucket loads of dough. It's just because I feel like I've just I've run I've done what I've just suggested you're probably wanting to do, and, you know, it's just a really nice thing to be able to just sit back and realise one of the, you know, we don't need, um, the stuff we've got, right? Yeah,

41:39
we just got

41:40
and I feel like also, this brings up the thought that I've had for a while, which is like, if I'm starting a business today, I'd prefer to listen to someone who's just made their first quarter of a million dollars and I would Richard Branson, because there is the disconnect of Yeah, and I think that that's where we can fall into the trap. Have we listened to these people who made money years and years ago? And it's like they haven't had to fucking worry like it's a very different reality we'll be on an island islands I feel like with all the the the world like surely that's gonna say you don't want oh that's I don't want yeah you can have the island but then you've got to there's a lot that comes with an island I reckon. Yeah, you'd know clearly. Yeah. Well you think about like utilities

42:34
pay you paying a country that the island resides in Waikiki? What? Right?

42:41
Just like the islands and if you have rights you can afford it now.

42:47
rights are expensive in a house of families, let alone mention the island you

42:51
have to pay rent to own a car if you're driving it around. Of course. I mean, it's part

42:55
of like all the islands in the Whitsundays are part of Queen queens. Yeah, and they're actually relatively cheap. cheap compared to what you were thinking.

43:03
But the problem is your running costs are outrageous. So you know that, you know, you can't just go and buy one and we're going to give you an intuitive marketing the story on that Seth Godin told on your podcast about the plumber that came over and went down into the basement and handed Seth, a pad that had eight pages of contacts that he'd done work for. And he said, call any of them. And you can confirm if the work was great. It was it was a great piece of marketing. That probably wasn't like, it's I think there's a lot of us that just like do things that are intuitively and Mark is, you know, there's a bunch of stuff that falls into the marketing category for that. What do you what do you see from businesses, business owners that you're speaking to? What's the most common intuitive marketing that people that I love those little one percenters like so you're describing a boilermaker Who went into Seth Golden's house in New York? and Seth was getting two or three quotes. And this one blog said, you know, this is what I do. This is how I do it. This is how much it cost. And look, he's eight names who happened to be in the same street or building and since I was feel free to call I said looked at the list he knew some of the names on and he's like my learned to call him he got the job, right. So, to me what their boiler maker did was pretty simple. We call it intuitive, like it's common sense, right? That's like, what is the questions we asked determine the answers we get. So the question that guy asked him, What would my prospects really liked from me, in order to make it easy for them to buy from me? Right, so he's gone. testimonials and actual phone numbers from people that this guy's going to know. Pretty obvious. I interviewed a lawn mower guy a lawn care guy from Tennessee the other week, Brian Clayton, and he built the biggest lawn care business in Tennessee $10 million turnover. And I said how to do it. And he said, you know, the little one percenters those little things and one thing he did to listen to you, you don't know who knows who and just go the extra mile. He was mowing, he was mowing a guy's lawn who happened to be a McDonald's franchisee so one day he says any you do that you know it's 20 bucks mow the lawn See you later one day he got talking to his client said Are your McDonald's franchisee? Can I do your laundry in McDonald's store by chance the guy said yeah, you can and so then lawn our man Brian does the lawns that he's at the local McDonald's but also picks up all the cigarette butts in the drive thru. Simple doesn't cost him much low perceived cost to Brian high pissy high value to to the McDonald's store owner. So then the middle Sorry, guys, you're awesome. I've got to meet two of franchisees as well. Do you want me to hook you up with him and all of a sudden from picking up the cigarette butts in the drive through this guy's now Building a big business during all the McDonald's stores around Tennessee. So I just think the one percenters. I'll give you one more example, which is, I love this example. And it's an example. It's an electrician at the owner of an electricians franchise out of New South Wales.

46:15
And he just recognised that trade. He's a hopeless in terms of turning up on time about being on site and doing things in a polite, clean, noise free way and all that stuff. So Josh from Platinum electricians, who was my guest on the show, had created a 21 step customer mantra, and every single time one of his electricians went on site to a business or a home they must follow these 21 steps. Now he didn't reveal all the 21 steps he revealed about 11 of them, but they were simple things like arrive five minutes early, not 15 minutes late.

46:49
Don't park in the driveway or walk across the grass use any paths. Wipe your feet and take you should take your shoes off and put on these birdies. If you see something if you see it Light globe out in the home, replace it. Don't ask just replace it on the way out say, Hey, listen, I replaced the light globe free of charge, no worries. So all these things individually, like that

47:10
was a fucking Philips Hue that

47:14
my app has.

47:17
But all these things individually, not groundbreaking, but add them up. And that is an awesome business experience that you are building, marketing versus sales. What is it? What's the difference? marketing, draws in people sales converts them?

47:33
Do you think marketers need to be salespeople? No,

47:36
I think I have need to understand. I mean, in an ideal world where we talk, I talk to small business owners, so sometimes they have to be both right. But ideally, always marketing and sales should work together. And had a great example. Just this morning, I have a guest who he has a town planning business where he gets cancelled approval for people wanting to do dual occupancies and all that kind of stuff and it He learned and he measured this, his conversion rate when he put a marketer or technician, like a town planner, or someone on a new call with a prospect was 5% went up to 20%. The minute he puts salespeople on those prospecting calls, yeah, who could actually, instead of doing the sell would find out about the prospect what their needs were, what their problems were, what success look like all that kind of stuff, and then offer them a solution and the conversion rate went up. So I think sales is an incredible skill, not for the faint hearted. And yeah, it should be focused on by salespeople marketing by marketing, but they should talk

48:38
about if you're a great marketer, as a small business owner, but no good at sales, but you're creating sales through your marketing efforts. Can you can you be stronger in the marketing department which solves a slight problem this beginning before you can pull in other people to help

48:54
me understand that quickly rephrase that question.

48:56
So if I'm a great marketer, that's creating marketing material. It's getting people hyped about what I'm doing. And then it's converting them into the sale. So exactly do an inquiry into an inquiry or even a sale through a website.

49:09
And then if it's already, if they're selling a minutes, then sales to write,

49:15
or do sales to but I might not be, I might not be good at stuff.

49:18
It's like, yeah, if you get marketing people know about your brand getting in the final step, I guess it's that thing of marketing a ship product.

49:29
I mean, you know, you'll sell at once.

49:31
Yeah, you will sell at once, you know, great salespeople. There is a great distinction, you know, and I ended a fantastic sales guy a few years ago, and he had a philosophy ABC always be closing. And that's what salespeople do. They're always trying to figure out how to close the deal. Whereas marketers are trying to figure out how to get more people in whose deals can be closed

49:51
Public Relations and Marketing.

49:54
Pr is just if, if marketing is a pie, PR is a which you know, as is Advertising as its direct marketing as a sponsorship, as is networking as is, you know, so it's just a word and PR is just the ability to get noticed by the media.

50:09
And because you hear people talk about I'm a growth hacker or that there's all these different, you know, words that we use to describe what marketing is, yeah. Is there any version or a role if you were to create a marketer for 2020? What does that pie look like? What should I be focusing on? How should you be a specialist? Should you be well rounded depends

50:32
on what the businesses are on. It depends what the budget is. But you know, there are some fundamental things like lock market where there's 2020 or 1920. You know, the fundamentals remain unchanged. When one is get your message right first before you worry about where to put it. So you've got messaging medium, right? Too many business owners race off and get medium sorted out, I'm gonna get a website. I'm gonna get on Twitter. I'm gonna go to every networking event that the local chamber, like that's such an easy decision to made, the hard decision is what am I going to say? When I get a website? What am I going to say when I go to a chamber of commerce event? And that's where you've got to put the work into your pitch into your offer, into your call to action? What do you want people to do if you get them excited? This is hard. This is the hardest part of marketing and many don't do it. So it's a fundamental part, the understanding of your avatar or your your ideal customer fundamental, you know, to the point where I interviewed Jerry, Jerry Ryan Jayco caravans Jerry Ryan, I think it is he's the founder of jagged caravans. He has taken that avatar thing and understanding your audience to the nth degree, which is on the caravan production line at Jayco. There is a photo of the person capital or family that have bought that caravan, that one that's being assembled. So the engineers and the mechanics and everyone constructing that van going oh, that's that's the van we're putting together for Josh, you know, and then they put it because he didn't want the island.

51:58
Yeah,

51:59
yeah. So, again, I don't think it matters what, where we are in, in the on the timeline, fundamentally, great marketing doesn't change the way we go about

52:11
it. So you were the ideas guy, that people have a lot of ideas. Has your perception changed of ideas with execution? Or how do you say it now someone once said to me early on, when I started the ideas, guy, there's no shortage of ideas, and that really kind of hurt something. But I'm the guy.

52:30
I'm the guy, I've got the domain. So what do you want?

52:34
But I very quickly realised that that is the case. And it was about execution and implementation. And that's where that's where the magic happens. It's really you know, it really is, you know, I, I get listeners who say, I've got a journals full of ideas from your podcast. That's awesome. I hope you're implementing them. You know, I'd rather know about one idea implemented that four times your business, then a journal for 100 ideas that you've done nothing with.

52:59
I think it's the The ideas are too big for people to action, or it's the fear that they there's a certain excitement about just getting the idea. Yeah, capturing it. You talked about one of you said, you know, listening to my show in the early days and being excited by it. I listened to a podcast in the early days. And it was just completely mesmerised. And If only I'd implemented I'd be, I'd probably be on an island by now. You know, so yeah, you can there is that element of excitement. And there is so much content out there. I don't think there's too much content but there is so much content that you've kind of got to decide okay, I'm going to listen that that is my source. And whatever they say within reason. I will action as opposed to just dropping the line in all over the place and hoping something will catch

53:45
timber. Thank you for coming on the show. That was good fun. The the podcast have you do you feel like it's it's with podcast one and everything? what's changing? Is there any going to be any differences that we're going to be

53:56
here happy at Timbo? Because I'm doing everything

54:00
I have a complete support. Now I have a complete support team around me, which is going to free me up one of the things I've realised, and they'll be plenty of business owners who've realised this anyway, because they are employing and they have surrounded themselves with teams is that it's freeing me up just to think creatively about my guests the research that I do for my on my guests. And just the way I can sit back on the microphone during an interview, knowing that I've actually done the work and then everything else is going to be done, from editing to social media management, to production to booking next week's guests in the studio and getting it out there. So that's pretty it's a real freeing feeling.

54:34
What's the promise of your podcast in terms of frequency? How often are you dropping once a week? Once a week? haven't missed it? Oh, yeah.

54:44
Yeah,

54:45
yeah, no, but hey, you know, I've lost faith.

54:48
In myself, sometimes. You just get exhausted and you go, am I gonna do this, but it doesn't take much. I mean, I get just extraordinary letters or emails from listeners who just Even today I got one, which is just like, I mean, I read this stuff and I go, who am I talking about? Yeah, it's me. All my guests on my show, and it's like, Oh, that's awesome. So, now I might I've it's been a roller coaster, it's been more up than down. But there are times when you just sort of question what you're doing. And, you know, living years is a long time and, you know, sort of sometimes think maybe I should have followed the Fawlty Towers strategy, which is create a living episodes and make him as scarce as possible, make them as good as possible, and just, you know, have people listened to over and over again. Other times I wish I'd gone in seasons where I've gone, you know, a particular theme and done 10 episodes around that and then come back six weeks later for another go. But I committed many years ago to a weekly podcast and not Yeah, probably, but but certainly been more on than off.

55:47
I feel like it's important time to with everyone sort of trying to figure out what they're doing having the ambiguity. When you listen to the podcast, I think you get a sense that there is a community and there's people listening and hanging on for that. So it's it's almost that sort of, you know, typically you go to it you know, the council chambers You know, there's all these different sort of business networking things but being able to do it where it's geographically unrestricted, you can be getting a bloke in the states talking about lawn mowing, like I feel like that's super super exciting. Yeah,

56:19
a lot of black in the states talk about cuddling he sold cuddles Really?

56:24
Cost What did he pay for his flash website?

56:29
which is called Costco. Yeah, I think

56:30
it's actually about $90 for the real affair now.

56:35
For our on what is like if it's safe look like Yeah. 150 and that includes top for the hand sanitizer, all right.

56:48
The Wind Beneath My Wings fell as well under you hear my talking about 500 episodes, but the daily talk show was 776.

56:53
Yeah.

56:55
What's our marketing from a glance to you? How do you say what do you So

57:03
what does that even mean? What we're

57:05
doing that's bringing people in visually like I mean, you look at a brand you can go up, they're putting themselves out there. Yeah it copies here the community carrying themselves they one of you superficial one of you is incredibly idly intentive because your brand consistency is awesome. Who is it? Which one? I think it's,

57:26
I think it's

57:29
a team effort. Yeah. Yeah, I think yeah, there's been in terms of branding. Josh is very adamant about Yeah, a lot of 1% that's such

57:38
an easy thing. Like if I look around, you know, you got the sign on the wall there. You got the hoodie. You know, you got the sticker on the computer, you know, it's all around the place and it's just consistent. I mean, the amount of businesses that I see where, you know, it's talking about a cafe The, the logo on the menu is different to the logo outside is different to the logo on the can of the font being used here is different of the one there. There's different uniforms and All that just minimises trust. So a simple way of building trust is to have a beautifully consistent brand. Visually, it sounds really simplistic, but it's such a quick win,

58:10
I think. So like when we started, we weren't in love with the original logo. So it was hard to, you're doing a merger and you didn't feel good? Well, you need to get it. But

58:21
on the flip side of the coin, it's like people get obsessed. Like, it's so weird, because that makes so much sense. But at the same time, there are people who are going to spend hours and hours on a logo, who are never going to be able to build a brand because I've never been able to make someone feel anything because I've spent so much time in Photoshop and feel that's right. And you know, just to finish off because brand is a very overused term in marketing, probably one of the most overused terms. My favourite definition of a brand is it's an emotional attachment. So you use the word feeling Josh, and it is a man it's great to have a visual logo and it's good that it's consistent everywhere. It's just the ticket to the game. You know what you want to be building is an emotional attachment between you and your prospect because when they are emotionally engaged with you, they are less likely to look elsewhere. And they'll be happy to pay a little bit more because they just like being a part of what you're creating. And again, we've got to kind of focus a bit more on that than just kind of the rational side of marketing.

59:17
You've definitely now the branding. I was even saying to the guys like you've got a vernacular, like I'll finish the show, doing a bit of a Timbo raid how I think you'll end it. Plenty of Nuggets to take away from that episode, if you just implement one of them if you do something great if you you know, that's all

59:38
sounded like an episode of Steve. What do you

59:44
think that's good. Did you ever did you ever read the boron letters? It was like a marketing but it was very good in just the Utah it's that headline stuff. It's the Yep. You're not afraid to be a bit hyperbolic or

1:00:02
That's your words exactly right dripping off the nugget. Oh yeah there

1:00:06
is. g o LD dripping from the ceiling over here at the Small Business big marketing's HQ, so let's get stuck rotting

1:00:18
today the talks I said tomorrow guys say guys