Tomorrow Man's Tom Harkin On Reinventing Masculinity

Josh: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 614, and we got Tom Harkin in the building. Welcome, Tommy boy.

Tom: Thanks for having me.

Josh: Do you get Tommy as well?

Tom: Yeah, sometimes. More Harks than Tommy. Yeah.

Josh: Is it Tom on your birth certificate?

Tom: No, Thomas without a H. Thomas?

Josh: Yeah, Thomas.

Tom: Or Thomas.

Josh: Thomas. I love it, um, because it's one of those It's one of those things, uh, people somehow find a time to call me Tom. I'm just like, it's not my name.

Tommy: But surely you're going to grow out of Tommy.

Josh: Nah, I like it. It's fun, it's playful, it's friendly. It suits me, doesn't it, Tom?

Tom: Yeah, it does. I think you're a Tommy.

Josh: Tom suits you too. Yeah. Anyway, welcome, mate. It's, um, cheers.

Tommy: Before we start talking about, uh, identity.

Josh: Yeah, before we go deep, uh, this almost didn't happen.

Tom: Yeah, this is right.

Josh: I'm so glad it has though.

Tom: Um, the phone's ready to roll.

Josh: Yeah, so if your phone goes off and you do run out of shot, it's because your wife is giving birth. Yeah, this is very exciting for the next generation of men. It is a boy.

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: Oh, that's exciting.

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: Um, you've already got one child which is similar age to Bodhi actually. Yeah, I think I remember the— I think I saw you at a friend, a mutual friend's birthday, and I think Paige might have been pregnant. And, um, I think I almost put my foot in it or something. I don't know. That time when no one knows, right?

Tom: Did you have a big Christmas or?

Josh: No, no, not that.

Tom: No, no, that guy. It's my much, you know, you are that guy.

Tommy: You're a pretty forward.

Josh: I say shit that I do put my foot in my mouth a lot. Yeah. And so anyway, it's very flexible like that.

Tom: So what was the foot that you?

Josh: No, I just must. I nearly said something.

Tommy: What? So you knew and other people didn't know?

Josh: I don't think you'd mentioned it to everyone at that point. I saw you and I said something. No, but I thought I knew what was going on. Anyway, it's happened.

Tommy: So you've got an organisation called Tomorrow Man.

Tom: Yes.

Tommy: How did it start?

Tom: Um, oh, there's a short storey and a long story. I'll start with the short one.

Josh: Um, can you go from the short one to the long one if we just wanted to jump?

Tom: Yeah, we might be able to jump.

Tommy: Surely we'll see how we make some progress. It's like doing some industry credits or whatever. We can get you into second year or something.

Tom: I think the The long storey was more so just my passion for working with blokes, which was an unorthodox pathway. The short storey is we did a documentary with Gus Worland, and he— I can't remember when, it must have been about 5 years ago now. It feels like maybe 4 years. No, actually, well, River was like 10 weeks when it aired. So almost 4 years ago, Gus went on a journey around Australia to work out what was going on for the Australian male. And, and he got— I was involved in that, ran a workshop for a group of, uh, young blokes and a group of CEOs. And, um, particularly the session with the young guys, you know, these rowdy, you know, 16-year-old blokes at Balgowlah Secondary.

Josh: Us as kids.

Tom: Yeah, exactly. Um, just coming in for shits and giggles and having a bit of fun, great banter. And then, um, you know, obviously the 20-minute part of the episode shows the boys going from that to incredible honesty that they had never heard out of each other's mouths and a fair bit of emotion. And, you know, after that, things just blew up. Yeah. So I think the night before the doc— the— I think— no, it wasn't the night before. It would have been about a week before. Jen, one of the producers, was in town. We're having breakfast to celebrate. And she said, so what have you done with you? You got a website? You know, I said, no, no, no. And she said, have you shut down like your socials, you know, make them private or anything? I was like, well, I don't know how to do that. Um, and she said, well, you better work it out because in a week or two things are just going to get, you know, crazy.

Josh: And that was under the presumption that it would be a big hit, which it was a great hit, that doco.

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: And also under the presumption that you got something to hide on social media. What the fuck did you have on there?

Tom: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't think there was much. There was one wild kind of night in LA that I had taken like 50 shots of me that looked like I was in a brawl. I wasn't actually, but you're going for a hug with your mate and it just looked like that. Yeah, I was just leery.

Josh: Um, and so, uh, Gus, um, works on Triple M up in Sydney.

Tom: Yes. Yeah, he's just moved to a different show, the, uh, Dead Set Lenders or something. But he, yeah, he was on this kind of, he was on this journey. He's made it. Did I say that he's made it taking his life? And he was trying to, yeah, so his best mate took his life, a mentor of his And the guy had a perfect life as far as Gus was concerned. Had the cash, had a beautiful wife and kids, and charismatic guy, like just everything, like, oh, ticked all the boxes. And, um, and then one day, you know, walked upstairs, um, which he never did, up to where the boys, you know, rooms were, and a little lounge room up there. And they were playing video games, and he went up and sat down with him for a moment and said, you guys all right? And, uh, and then he left the house and never came back. And And Gus kind of in his own words was just like, I like angry, didn't get it. Why did he leave them? Like, this isn't the guy that he knew. And so then this, this opportunity came up around this doco. And so he's like, yeah, I want to find out what's happening.

Josh: I think that that doco came out at a time where the conversation hadn't even sort of hit its peak, but hit its high around masculinity. Yeah. Like it was perfect timing for anything crazy. What does that conversation look like today? Because you see things go through sort of phases in culture where they've got more attention to them. Where is the conversation around men and masculinity at the moment?

Tom: Yeah, it's a great, great question. I think, um, and I'll give you my take on that. Um, you're on the ground. I think everybody else will have different ideas, but for us, I mean, at that time we're running a few workshops. We're now running 500 workshops a year around Australia about 30,000 men from, you know, year 10 and upwards. What we've seen in that time is our 3 major funders all began about that same time, all because they had lost somebody significant and they wanted to do something about it. And we've grown up with those funders and others that support us. But around the same time, like, people were coming out of the woodwork all over the place. Like, guys up on the East Coast, you know, Sunday frothies with the boys, come and have a cappuccino and have a walk and to talk about what it means to be a dad. You know, if you've been through, you know, having a child, you know, they make sure that the mum's hooked in with all the local mums having babies at the same time, but there's no equivalent for the blokes. And so I think there's been this, like, over those, you know, over the last 4 years, I feel like there's just been this, like, amazing explosion of all of these everyday blokes going, we need solutions for all the gaps, you know, in, in the normalised way a bloke grows up in this country. I think where it's at now is At the time of Man Up, when we were doing all the media on the back end, people saying, oh, you know, what do you think about Man Up? And I was saying, I think Man Up's great because it was all about awareness, but where are the aspirational normalised training grounds for your everyday Aussie bloke to actually learn the capabilities that are going to change the stats? Not just become aware that there's a problem and there's a gap, but actually, you know, not so much clinical— all that clinical help is really needed, you know, but But where are the— you know, you grow up in— for me, I grew up in Frankston and the cricket club was my kind of church of man, you know what I mean? Like, that's where I learned— it was the cricket club, you know, in summer, the footy club in winter. And I wanted to be like the blokes that hung out at that place. But where's the equivalent of that that actually teaches you how to have a conversation with another guy, particularly about the stuff that you most need to talk about? Now, nobody at that club ever taught me how to do that. You know, they taught me how to play pool. I had my first drink up there. All that kind of stuff. They taught me about chicks and they taught me, you know, how to play a sport. But there was nowhere as a teenager that I was like, I want to tell my mates that I'm, I'm heading to this, you know, to learn these skills. Um, for me, I was lucky enough to find the Reach Foundation about that time. Sammy, mutual friend of ours, he was like that one of those people for me. I was like, that guy's a legend. He's not much older than me. I want to be like him. He's charismatic, he's cool. Um, I'd love my mates to meet him and I want to learn off him.

Josh: Like, you have dyed hair at that point? Like, did he have the— he had a mohawk.

Tom: My Hawk. Yeah, he did. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. I've only ever heard about the My Hawk. I've never, I've never seen it.

Josh: We should get a photo.

Tommy: Did he have eyebrow, an eyebrow piercing too? Or is that maybe a storey that I've created in my head?

Josh: He had the ear, the ears, the, you know, inside his— Yeah.

Tom: And the, what do you call it? The, I mean, his, uh, his superhero kind of person, uh, Disco Pig.

Josh: Is that, was that it?

Tom: Yeah, that was kind of his alter ego. Yeah, that was his DJ personality. Yeah, exactly. His alter ego.

Josh: We're talking about Sam Kavanaugh, who's been on the show as well.

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: When I was growing up, I didn't have many male friends. Yeah. Has that been something that is part of the conversation or like— So Tommy has had a very good close friend, like close group of blokes.

Tom: Sure.

Tommy: I was never really into drinking. Yeah. Wasn't really into sport.

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: And so I ended up like, it's been like I'm turning 30 this year, but it's almost like this recalibration because I got into my 20s and then you were just friends with all, like, all female friends.

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: And then I've been with my girlfriend for 12 years, and it's sort of like changed, like, the relationship that you have with girls when you've got a long-term partner.

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: Changes as well. Um, what have you learned through speaking to men in regards to friendship?

Tom: Yeah, I mean, the main thing is that for blokes, friendship is about action. And sharing experiences. More often than not, if you just go bucket maths, like blokes will say, yeah, I've got my mates and yeah, I know what's going on for them. But then they, you know, they're in a workshop and they realize, geez, I didn't— I actually didn't know what was going on for you. And then they find themselves going, I thought I was a really good mate and I'm starting to feel like maybe I'm not such a good mate. I should know that. Um, which is also ironic because often their mates are saying the same thing. They're like, well, you haven't told me what's going on for you either. So I think that for, for, for guys, like, I mean, one of the things, if we're out running a blokes' night or something, we say to people, well, what do blokes usually play with when they grow up, you know? And they'll say, you know, their tackle, their dick, or whatever. Um, and then once they get past that, it's like, you know, trucks and, you know, guns and all that kind of stuff. And what do girls, as Bucket Maths usually play up with, yeah, you know, play with as a kid? And they usually say things like dolls and house and, you know, relational-based toys. And it kind continues that way. You know, you go around a co-ed schoolyard and you generally see most of the guys scattered or sitting in lines or, you know, throwing stuff at something or each other. And, and the girls are generally in clusters and they're facing towards each other and they're talking about, how's life for you? Or did you realise this happened? You know, what's going on around our social network kind of thing. And that kind of continues. So the, the interesting thing for guys in Australia is this realisation that most of our friendships actually exist around structured activities. And for the first part of our life, we don't even decide on the structure. So we're put together through school, put together through organised sport maybe, or organised music, or whatever it might be. And then we know from the stats and from the guys that we're out there talking to, there's this cliff drop around about the kind of 30, 30 to 35 mark where you get the significant relationship and you dedicate yourself to a lot of that. You're out of the shared house. You're too old to be playing the organised sport. And so there's nobody giving you an excuse to come together, and so you stop coming together. And guys start to rely all their emotional support on their significant partner. And that's where a lot of the kind of scary stats live, you know, in terms of when life's getting its hardest. Why do, you know, only 1 in 3 males 30 to 65 in this country say that they've got relationships that are significant that they can rely on. The other two-thirds either think, well, I don't have the quality of relationships, or I have no relationships at all with, with friends.

Tommy: And so is that a natural thing, or is that culture?

Tom: I think it's culture. I think it's culture. I think, you know, it was interesting because I had a workshop yesterday, and, and it kind of— the guy at the end was saying, you know, but we're born this way, aren't we? You know, like, we're born this way. And I said, right, Lady Gaga, great song. It's hard to say, you know, it's hard to say where the nature-nurture thing intersects. But I saw this great thing on SBS the other day. I was flicking channels and, uh, Is Australia Sexist? It was the name of the show. And they had— it was just this one clip and it was, you know, kids around the 18-month mark where you can't really see gender, you know, in their physicality or anything like that. And it was a social experiment where they had the room filmed and people were coming in and playing with the kid on a mat with all of these toys that kind of are different gender toys or whatever. And so people come in, they're playing with the kid. The kids either dress pink or blue. And then at the end, interviewing them, how did you find it with the kid? You know, sure enough, people with the kid in blue were playing with the trucks and stuff and saying, you know, like, they loved— that's what they wanted to play with. They were going for the trucks and they were going for that. So really lighting up around the trucks, you know. And same with the girls, oh, really lighting up around the dolls, you know, they really loved that. And then they're told, you know, so the girl dressed in pink was actually a boy. 'Um, did you know that?' You know, 'How do you feel about that?' And just the shock and then kind of going, 'What? No, yeah, really? Uh, yeah, right.' And then starting to realize, did the kid pick the toy or did I actually pick the toy and then decide that the kid was loving it? Where the kid would have loved any toy, you know what I mean? But, but I'm so kind of conditioned by all the norms around me that that's the way that I roll with it. So I think, sure, there's, there's some nature stuff, but like I said, But if you just look at the way that we grow up and what people encourage into us, like Rive at the moment, 3 and a half, going to daycare. We've got this like daily battle in the car with Rive trying to make Paige, you know, the green or the blue Power Ranger, you know. No, Mum can't be that, you know. Mum needs to be pink. Mum needs to be pink. Dad, you can be blue or you can be— Mum has to be pink. And it's like No, Riv, why? You know, because she's a girl and girls are pink, you know. And, you know, he's in our household and we're pretty open-minded and all that kind of stuff. But he's dead set, like he's so fierce about it. He's like, no, you're like, you guys have got it wrong. Like, you're not getting this.

Josh: He's since left that daycare. Yeah. No, I mean, it's interesting because my experience with Bodhi, like he was— he gravitated to wheels before and I've always been like, I'll give him whatever he wants to play with. I don't give a shit.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: You know, and sort of— and he's a madman. He like, he loves to jump off stuff and he does gravitate to the trucks and stuff. And so that I've thought more about the nature-nurture thing.

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: And there's definitely some part of it there.

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: Where they just, they're just obsessed over.

Tommy: And so what is that there?

Tom: So what is the nature?

Josh: Sorry, just one example.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Goes to my brother's house, Jacko's house, and Jemima, his my brother's daughter is 4. He somehow finds the one truck.

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: In that house.

Tom: Sure.

Josh: They didn't even know where it was, but he's got under the couch.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: And that was only 2 days ago. Yeah. And I just thought that was like, mate, you can put the Elsa dress on if you want.

Tom: Yeah, it's all good.

Tommy: But how funny is it?

Tom: Sample as well.

Tommy: But like, how soon is all of that starting to, like, be wired in, do you think?

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: By the age of 3?

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: The programming, is it all, you know, set up from a cultural point of view? What are we watching from like a, like a consumption point of view as well?

Tom: Yeah, well, he's taken it off watching Power Rangers, not even from daycare. Or like, I think he wanted Power Rangers because the kids at daycare, and then we put it on the TV and he just sees, you know, every time the chick's in pink, you know what I mean? Which is changing now. Like, like pretty much every movie that you go and watch at the cinema now has a female hero, you know. And so that's great because they're going to be exposed to different stuff, but I mean, I agree with you on it. Like, Riv was just engines, you know, any sound of an engine, he'd just be like, yes, you know. He's obsessed with motorbikes, has been. He just will not let go of it. But at the same time, we were, um, in Greece at the airport, and he wanted to go to the toy store, and he was loving Frozen at the time. And we went into the toy store, and we're looking through. I was like, yeah, you can get something. So he's like looking at everything. And so he picks the, uh, the Elsa costume, you know, and, um, and I, and I found myself actually going, oh, but don't you want— yeah, don't you want this? You know, and, uh, and then, and then I actually managed to convince him to get something else that he didn't really want. And we were about to leave the store before it dawned on me, like, this is bullshit. I guess actually me, I don't want him walk around with the Elsa costume, um, and, and the doll. And so, uh, so I went back and went, no, you want like that, don't you? He's like, yeah, I do, you know. So he got that. But then really interesting just watching all the airport stuff. I still remember it, walking out on the tarmac and people being like, what's the kid doing, you know, with the Elsa doll and the Elsa costume? Like, what is going on? And then realising like, I run all of this stuff and I'm trying to unwind my biases all the time, but I'd be lying if I was like, yeah, rock it, like wear it.

Tommy: What about the people that would say that parents are then trying to project that, which is like, you know, um, the kid wants a truck, why do you keep, you know, giving him a Barbie? He doesn't want a Barbie.

Tom: Like, yeah, it's like Rage in Placid Lake. Have you seen that movie? No. It begins with, um, who's— is he off? Ben Folds or something, the actor. Anyway, it's an Australian movie. It begins with like, it's black and you can hear the sounds of a school and they're like, go on, Placid, go on, like, you'll be fine. And, and then, uh, it comes to the screen and it's this little poor little kid walking in with a dress on into school because his parents want to challenge the norms.

Tommy: Yeah.

Tom: And the poor kid, like, I think somebody walks up and just clocks him straight away and they're like, it's gonna be fine, pluses. Yeah.

Tommy: And so you're— when you're, uh, at sports clubs and you're on the ground in communities and you're seeing the— what the programming of masculinity and what it means to be a man has done to men, where do you fit? What do you think the, the balance is for how we bring up kids?

Tom: Yeah, well, that's the interesting thing because I, like, I'm, like, I'm, I'm all about masculinity. Like, I love, like, I love a lot of those masculine traits and, and identify with a lot of them. And I think it's about a balance. I think the rip-off at the moment for blokes is that if they grow up and they're not brought into environments where they get to question the norms that they're kind of growing up with, they end up with half a toolkit. And that half a toolkit only really works in certain situations. And so when they can't cry, you know, and just hold their tears with their mates and go, I'm fucking struggling, like, this is really hard at the moment for me, or they can't, you know, cry at their wedding or, you know, even cry during a movie, they can't rock a dance floor, probably, you know, that wasn't a Frankston thing to do. In the 'burbs, you don't hit the dance floor if you're a bloke, you know, you toe tap on the outside. And so why should you miss out on all that shit? You know, like, we got one life. What— that, that's where I sit with it. It's not, hey, let's all, you know, jump in dresses and really kind of try and push the opposite. It's more so saying, um, I think every bloke should, should have the capacity in themselves to assert themselves and to be strong at the right moment and all those things, to be stoic, to tuck away their emotion and self-regulate and get the job done on the really hard day. I think everybody should have that ability, but if that's your only ability, then we just know that's not sustainable. Eventually that's just going to snap and there's going to be a huge implosion, and a lot of people around you, including yourself, are probably going to get hurt. So have range is, is kind of our message. Like, guys, like, like, you have it all.

Tommy: How much have you changed since starting, uh, really, you know, digging deep into this?

Tom: That's a great question. Um, I think I've become, um, probably more upset and more, um, passionate and angry, you know, in some ways. Um, yeah, like, I think, yeah, I think I was lucky growing up. I had a strong matriarch of a mum, and so I— she would talk me through what was going on for me emotionally and what I was struggling with and all that kind of stuff. And then I was around my mates and I gravitated towards the big guys because I was so small and I didn't feel like I was a man. I wanted to be around them and luckily I was mates with them in primary school. And then I saw around 17, like, the rule book start to smash back on them and start to, you know, yeah, lead to some outcomes I wasn't happy, you know, like I wasn't happy with for them. School didn't know how to handle them and all sorts of stuff.. And so that's where it began for me. It was like, I didn't go out to work with blokes. I had never had that interest. It was more so like, well, I know my mates and they wouldn't rock up to pretty much everything that's on offer for them to do the talking. And so we need a better alternative for the, for that bloke. Now, um, I think the thing that makes me a bit emotional is, um, you know, when you go out and you work with a group of, you know, 50-year-old blokes in a country town they look terrifying. You know, you sit in a room with them and they're all, you know, looking at you like, who the fuck are you and what are you going to share with me? It's kind of really intimidating space to be in. And on the other side of that, within about 10 minutes, if you provide the right environment, you're not attacking them or condescending them, they actually all just start to open up and you end up with this beautiful group of blokes going, I don't have the tools I need for a good life and I don't want to see another mate die. And I don't want to live this way. I don't— like, I don't want another broken marriage, and I don't want these things, but I don't know how to change it. Like, give me a— give me a solution. And I started finishing all my workshops by saying, gents, the cavalry is not coming. Like, the, the, the, the way that we educate our young men isn't going to fundamentally change. We're not going to suddenly have all these inspiring environments that guys want to go to as much as they want to go to the football club or the cricket club or to play in a band with their mates. Um, we need to do— it's the everyday man that needs to do it, not wait for the government, not wait for the education system. It really is like, if you see a solution for your mates, you're like, we need to bring the boys together, we need to learn to talk. You can get on the internet now and learn how to talk pretty much, you know what I mean? Like, so much resource that you can self-educate. Um, but yeah, I think the thing that's changed in me is I've been out there Um, I remember seeing that movie, um, what's the movie with Brad Cooper recently?

Josh: A musician?

Tommy: Bradley Cooper?

Tom: Oh yeah, um, A Star Is Born. Great one. I went and saw that movie crinkle, uh, cinemas. And good cinema? Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, I can't remember.

Tommy: You're a gold class guy?

Tom: Definitely not. No. Well, I think— isn't Hoyts like just gold class in general these days?

Tommy: They've replaced all the seats. They've got whole, I think in the Central they've got beanbags potentially, but not to get bogged down.

Tom: Yeah, anyway, so you're in Coringa. I mean, I'm in Coringa watching that movie. Um, got a date night, like, it's like, you know, sacred time away from the, the little bub, and we decided to go and see the most depressing movie you can possibly watch. And I, I broke. I just broke. I did not see it coming. I didn't, I hadn't seen the original. I didn't know the storyline. And I, it took me about 20 minutes to get out of the cinema. And head down.

Tommy: It wasn't the beanbags.

Tom: No, it wasn't the beanbag. It was in extreme emotion. Yeah. And I think the thing—

Josh: lights come on. Yeah, pretty much.

Tom: Pretty much.

Tommy: So is that something that you should go toward? The unexpected emotional response? Because on a Friday night, Bree will say, oh, let's watch this movie. I'm like, it's too fucking negative. I need something funny. Like, I don't want something—

Tom: I think we both said, let's never do that again.

Tommy: Yeah.

Tom: Like, yeah, but the thing that hit me about it was that it would spoke to a lot of the experiences that we've been hearing about out there, and I had just been like not, you know, like not really maybe processing it completely, and it just went kush, you know, straight through the middle.

Tommy: So is there something within, as in what's changed as an organisation that you have to do? Because when you're going out there and you're speaking, you've got facilitators within your business. What sort of emotional support do you need to provide them?

Tom: Yeah, exactly. I mean, the peer group, the other guys that are out there facilitating, provide a a lot of support. And then we've got, you know, like a counsellor will have a supervision session where another counsellor will be, you know, let them just talk about how are all your sessions going, is there anything that's keeping you up at night and all that kind of stuff. And we have supervision available for our guys. And then we do trainings, you know, like off-site trainings where we just, yeah, um, train them in the skills of facilitation but also how to deal with what, what they're out there experiencing.

Josh: What have you learned about communicating to men that is transferable to women, so they're— or a partner of a man. So there's, you know, it's about my wife looking at me, and one of the great things she said was, I think when you go insular, you're actually trying to work it out, and then you come back when you have some solution. It's exactly what I fucking do. For some reason, that cut through to me. I think it's my— because it's someone very close to me, I'm valuing that. But if you— what would you say to somebody who who wants a strategy to open up dialogue with a male who might be sort of closed off?

Tom: Yeah, it's a funny one because it's like a Band-Aid solution for now. Like, and when I say that, like, the advice is actually not to, not to go face to face. Like, don't get in there. Face time?

Josh: No, no. Yeah, as in physically up in there?

Tom: Yeah, don't get in their grill. Don't be direct, you know, be side by side. Be laid back and don't jump if they give you a breadcrumb of honesty. Um, whereas a lot of time the person, particularly the woman, cares so much. It's like, I want to know what's going on for you.

Josh: Yeah.

Tom: And a breadcrumb comes out and it's like, oh, what do you— why do you think that's the thing? And, and like, you know, and it's like, here's 10 questions on that breadcrumb you gave me. And the guy just goes, ah. Like too much. Like, I don't know.

Tommy: Whoa. I don't have any more like a female. Like, like, because I think that's the thing with Tommy says you layer it. You, you don't say it so much anymore, but it was always like you're layering. Yeah. Because I would be like, this thing here affects this, this, this, and also this thing that happened 6 months ago.

Tom: Sure.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But it's interesting you talk about not communicating direct but being side by side. I feel like it's a common thing is direct communication is seen as like the pinnacle, right? Because direct communication is the most transparent, honest thing that you can do.

Tom: Yep.

Tommy: Do you think that there is a better way than direct?

Tom: No, no. So that's why I think it's a Band-Aid. That's why I think it's a Band-Aid, because I think that it's scary that that is the solution most of the time. Just don't get in their grill.

Tommy: And so what you're saying is to get in the grill.

Tom: I— what I would love would be for our education to set young blokes up to know how to sit face to face and have a deeper conversation without awkwardness or the need to dance around each other.

Tommy: What about, uh, not as well as banter? What about like, what about like timing around a conversation? Yeah, when is the right time to have that difficult conversation? Yeah, and is— are there mechanisms around, okay, like this is how you set it up?

Tom: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think you got— like, you've got to understand the person that you're talking to and what they might be needing to protect themselves on. Like, if you're around all— like, oh, the 10 blokes are there and you're bantering about something that happened on the weekend, it's probably not the time to go, hey, and Tommy, what's— how are you really going, mate? You know, if that's the first time, and then 10 blokes turn around and go, what? You know, it's, it's going to be a rebuff. Whereas if you have time, if you're in the car and you're driving somewhere and you've got the time to have a bit of a chat or— Yeah.

Tommy: Because the car seems like a good one.

Josh: That's great.

Tommy: But it seems like to—

Tom: Side by side.

Tommy: Yeah.

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: It does have that.

Josh: Until the driver starts speeding because they're pissed.

Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely. Tesla would be good for that. You could do it. It's not great. The conversation that you're having with the 50-year-old, there's 50 years of programming. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah. That's what they say.

Josh: Yeah.

Tom: Is—

Tommy: what's your experience with getting people at the earlier— oh, sorry, the, the later end of life? And is it disheartening to— like, do you walk away being like, I don't know if I'm necessarily leaving creating the, the change?

Tom: Um, no, definitely not. Um, probably the opposite, to be honest. Um, because I think those guys by that point most of the stats have hit them. And if it hasn't hit them, it's hit all the blokes around them. And so they're actually pretty desperate in terms of like, I want to do— like, we got to change stuff.

Tommy: Is it normally a specific thing? Are you working with groups where it's like there's been a suicide in the community? Or is it—

Tom: no, it's, it's more like, you know, it's for anybody. It's a blokes night. Anybody that wants to rock up and have a laid-back conversation about what it means to be an Australian bloke today, a bloke in Australia today.

Tommy: Do you find that like, you know, councils are like, oh, you know, like our local government's like, oh, we're having— they're seeing an influx of something and then getting you guys? Is there some way that you can do it early, or you think that people are being proactive?

Tom: The interesting thing is never councils.

Tommy: Okay.

Tom: So it's always somebody, some Joe Blow, or usually actually a woman in town who's like, something's got to change. I've seen these great guys, we've got to get them to town. And so they contact and they're like, can you please come to our town? I'll get people there, I'll knock doors down at the local footy club and I'll get people in. Um, councils never get in touch. Um, and so, and usually, yes, that local person is going, we've got some issues in town and nobody seems to be doing anything about it, and so I want to, I want to do something. We need this for our blokes.

Tommy: What's most challenging question you've been asked by one of the blokes in a, you know, where you're sort of giving them a direction? Yeah, I've come back to you with something.

Tom: Yeah, I mean, probably one of them, we had a— I think we had like 150 blokes up in, uh, the— up on the Northern Beaches, and, and it had been an amazing session, like great stuff. And then this guy right in the middle stood up up and he said, mate, I've got something for you just to close out. What do we do now? What do we do now, huh? This has been great, all good and everything. What's next? You guys gonna piss off and never come back? It's like, um, don't really have an answer for that, you know. Like, it kind of caught me off guard, and it's the first time that I actually said that the Cavalry is not coming. I said, listen, like, that's actually a choice for you to make. Um, but it really caught me off guard, and the whole group went, whoa, yeah, how are you gonna answer that? Like, good, good to start something. And really, my answer to it was, it's pretty incredible to have a couple of, you know, over 100 blokes rock up in a local community. You obviously want to change things. This is your community now. Like, this is what you guys actually need to decide. If you want us back, if you want other things to happen, you've got to drive it. You know, that's why we're here, because somebody from the community drove this. So the everyday bloke has to do something, not just complain that the government isn't— the council's not calling you, or there's no services, or there's no— they're probably not going to. So you need to actually say, what do we need? Like, just, you know, what do we need, you know, for our mates and our sons and our dads, you know? And how do we pull our resources and try and make change happen?

Tommy: Happen.

Josh: I know that, um, I'm sure you personally have, but I've seen some of your team speaking in jails recently.

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: Um, I could imagine jail or school, there's people that are put— being sort of pushed into these sessions. I don't want to be there whatsoever. Yeah, they're just doing what they are being told. Yeah. How do you as a facilitator, um, deal with people who are in a room where they don't want to be there?

Tom: Yeah, um, by trying not to buy into it and shit yourself. Yeah, because, because they're pretty good at letting you know, like, often, um, that they don't want to be there. And by not— because I think when you get scared, then, then I know my reaction if I really get intimidated is to try and look like I'm much stronger than I am and go, you know, well, blokes, I'm here because, you know, and I— and get defensive or That's the worst thing. It's more so just to go, listen, I'm not here to waste your time. If you think it's shit, then there is a door there, you can leave. This is why we're doing it. If you're up for it, stay on board. And then to get into it, and most of the times, like, we have, you know, I remember running one for one of the waterboard companies and it was like all the guys in high-vis and they looked really pissed off about being there. One of the guys finished the work.

Tommy: They're very safe with all their high-vis PPE.

Tom: He was like, what did he say then? He said, um, well, when I walked in here and saw you fucking hipsters, uh, I thought, what the fuck am I doing here? This is bullshit. I gotta sit here and listen to these young wankers for, you know, an hour and a bit. Like, pretty much exactly word for word like that. And he said, you know, like, I've sat here the whole bloody session, it's been fucking all right. Like, this is probably—

Tommy: so there's a testimony.

Tom: Yeah, exactly. He's been— this has been the best thing they've ever had here, and we need more of this shit. Yeah, how good is that? But we were like going to— like, that was the first one at that place, and then it was almost like that guy was in every workshop. Like, a guy like that kind of said pretty much that at the end of each workshop. Like, I thought you were a dickhead, and, and I wasn't up for this, and— but it's been not bad. And that's, that, that's kind of the gap that we're looking to fill. We're looking to, to because, you know, there are so many great initiatives out there. There's so much research that's been done. There's a lot of solutions. Unfortunately, you know, you guys know everything about that in terms of brand and all of that kind of stuff. The best thing in the world, people won't consume it if they don't identify with the packaging, and they don't aspire to identify with the packaging. And so we put a lot of effort into the packaging, the language that we put around the solutions that we're putting on the table, they have to be relatable to that bloke. If he thinks he's going to lose his mates and they're not going to want to drink a beer with him anymore, then I'd rather not be healthy, thanks very much, because I don't want to be rejected by the people that, that are my tribe.

Tommy: If you could only have one tool in the toolkit to be able to make progress in this area, what do you think the tool is for a bloke?

Tom: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Um, is it— is there a daily practise or something that sort of you know, to the, to the point of going in, making positive change.

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: What's the small thing that people normally do after that that sees positive results?

Tom: Um, asking the second and third question. And, and yeah, that, that would be the number one thing. I think a lot of blokes, like, that's what they take. They go, I'm going to use that. And we have guys rocking up at the next workshop saying that made a difference. Second and third question is just— a lot of the time we ask the first question, you know, how you doing? And somebody goes, yeah, not bad, mate, you know, things with the family, you get it. And then, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. Um, how's the footy? You know, you see the game on the weekend? Another first question. And then on to another first question, another first question, rather than going, um, yeah, I do get it, yeah, family's intense, what's going on with yours at the moment? Which is the second question. Oh, you know, you know, the missus is cracking at me, but I'm trying to get this, you know, I'm trying to get the better job at work and it's just taken more from me. I don't know how to, you know. Yeah, right, like, like, what, what's it doing to her? Like, why is she kicking up a fuss about it? It's making life hard for her.

Tommy: Oh, that's right, mate. What the fuck? What's with all the questions?

Tom: Exactly.

Tommy: Is that a bit of feedback? Because like, we've had Michael Bungay Stanier, who wrote The Coaching Habit.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Tommy: And he's got a book coming out this month called The Advice Trap. It's very much around asking questions and it's almost, but it's addictive asking questions. Like, there's so much fun in asking questions.

Tom: So, well, not, well, there's a lot of people that wouldn't say that. Yeah, there's a lot of people that definitely wouldn't say that it's addictive to ask questions. A lot of blokes around Australia would say no.

Tommy: Is it because they're worried about the answer?

Tom: Yeah, they've got to hold something. They don't want to seem like they're prying. They don't want to seem like they're being too intense. They don't want to seem nosy.

Tommy: Um, do you think people like being asked the questions?

Tom: Definitely, yeah, if it's asked in the right way. And, and it— like, you can say ask the second and third question, but it does have a lot to do with how you ask it, because you got to give somebody space to breathe, and you got—

Josh: you—

Tom: they've got to know that you genuinely—

Josh: I just—

Tom: I'm just curious, I just want to know. Like, we've got a mate, um, Kirk Docker, who, um, you know, is the brainchild behind You Can't Ask That, the show. And before that, he was doing that thing with Denton out on the street, vox popping people like, when's the last time you cried? You know, what's, you know, big questions, you know. And I remember talking to him and him saying, you know, it's just crazy what people are willing to tell you. Like, they— people want to tell you stuff, but they need it to be asked in the right way. And, and if it's asked in the right way, people will tell you almost anything.

Tommy: Have you found any, uh, portion of your life where you're really good at this and you're doing everything, but there's this like other circle where you just haven't, for whatever reason, tapped into the second and third question?

Tom: For me personally, yeah, yeah, the last 3 and a half years, 4 years, um, it's the, the irony behind setting something up that's helping a lot of people and, and helping my family as well, you know. Um, and, and then realising I'm losing my ability to be present to my own family and actually be what I'm out there trying to help guys do. Um, so I think it's a perpetual kind of like trying to balance— like right now I'm making a very intentional choice to move back towards my family. I made them the promise, we'll set this up, it'll be a busy few years I'm not going to be as much there emotionally as I'd like to be, but then I'm coming back and this is not going to be our life. And so, um, you know, we're about to take 3 months when this bub comes, um, and both of us step out of the businesses, and, and, and that feels like the beginning of, of getting back to that other circle that I've been missing.

Josh: How tough is that on What's— how is that playing on your mind now, stepping away for 3 months? Like, what does that make you feel?

Tom: Yeah, well, it's been a relief. Like, it's been like, I actually can't wait because it's been really hard the last 3 and a half years. There's been a lot of mornings where I've woken up just going, again, like, there's so much on this week. Like, this is— it's heavy running a business. It's been really brutal at times, um, and really rewarding and amazing, all those things, but But so it's been relief, like I can't wait for that time. And then actually the last couple of weeks is because I'm starting to make that move, um, weird. Like I've been— I've actually been pretty depressed the last couple of weeks. Yeah, like just kind of zero energy, feeling really, I don't know, sad or something. And I think a part of that is I'm slowing down, like it's— and it's scary to slow down sometimes because then you realise what you haven't— what you've been neglecting. You realise the small circle.

Josh: Well, busy is a frequency, right? And when you're living in that state of busyness or running business, there's a million things you could be doing. Yeah. On top of the million things you're currently doing, you know?

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: And so it's dialling that, switching that to another frequency. Yeah, yeah, I can imagine.

Tom: And it's easy to get used to it. Like, you get used to it, you're like, yeah, I'm just like charging away, like, and then I'm, I'm doing this, I'm like, Jesus, my muscles doing this have atrophied. Like, I I don't really know who I am or how to do this. Do I really like this? And I do, I know that, but there's a transition point that's been actually kind of quite challenging.

Josh: Is there— I mean, guilt's a pretty strong word. Is there any guilt in feeling those feelings when you are doing something that is actually making a lot of impact?

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: So you're like, why, you know, I'm depressed, that doesn't matter, you know, like it's— that's silly for me to feel like that when I've been when I'm doing something that is about other people.

Tom: So yeah, um, no, no, no, not so much. Um, yeah, I haven't really felt that.

Josh: That's good.

Tom: Yeah, you have?

Josh: No, well, I think, um, the opposite for me. I just led into something so I could tell you guys about some guilt I'm feeling. I think I just actually did that.

Tommy: You projected and Tom said you're right back. He's volleyed it back.

Josh: I shouldn't feel that. What I was thinking is is like I could imagine myself feeling. I shouldn't feel shit when there's other people who are in tougher situations or, you know, outside of my environment. But I think for me around the kids stuff and busy and running a business, I feel this and it's just in my head about guilt around the kid and not being there enough. And as much as I'm there in the morning and night, but I just somehow feel this sense of the feeling of guilt around that.

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: And that it's like, it might be based on where I would love to be, which is giving this kid as much time as he wants, as I can give, you know, versus the opposite, which is I've got to do this, I've got to build something, otherwise what's the opposite? What's the alternative?

Tom: Yeah, I've definitely felt that. The first one I haven't because I do believe that everything's relative. So what's going on for another person, yeah, it's full-on, and sometimes you do need a bit of perspective, but perspective shouldn't, um, it, it shouldn't—

Tommy: it doesn't discredit your situation.

Tom: Exactly. Yeah, it shouldn't belittle your own emotional experience. It's just somebody else's experience, and it might give perspective, but you're feeling what you're feeling. Um, the other side of it, the guilt thing, for me it's been about emotional availability. So if I'm running 15 workshops and I've got 50 emails packed up and everybody needs a piece of me, and then I drive an hour and a half home and I get in the door, I've definitely had times where Riv is just this beautiful little kid and he just wants— all he wants to do is play with me. Like, that's all he wants. Daddy, daddy, daddy. And I'm like ghost man, kind of like I'm looking like I'm looking through a a glass window at you saying this, and I have nothing left to actually take part, you know. And definitely have moments like that where I'm like, ah, this is brutal. Like, I should be available to you, like, as a priority, but I just have nothing left. I don't know how to get on the ground with you and play and make this something.

Josh: Do you think there's something in men that— is it like a driving force to be the the carer and I've got to be out there in the world and, you know, being a man of the world, trying to build something, you know, I think that's— well, you see how many men have been distant from their families off doing work.

Tom: For sure.

Josh: Off building something for their family, you know, that's the sort of old thinking.

Tommy: What's your relationship with ambition?

Josh: Mine?

Tommy: Yeah.

Tom: Yeah. I mean, Paige and I went through a lot of couples counselling over the first, like, like a couple of years of the business because I felt like that. Like, I felt— I, I'd shit myself when, when Riv was coming along and I thought, I've been dicking around doing a job I love, it's paid me nothing, I don't have money, I don't have a home, um, we don't have those things. And I was like, I gotta get moving, I seriously get moving. And so that's why we set off with the businesses initially, and then the doco came very soon after and and I saw an opening. I was like, this is my chance to provide, you know, all these opportunities coming in, and I'm going to set my family up, and that's what I'm going to do. And, and she was like, well, stuff you, because the family's right here and I'm the only one that's looking after our family. I feel like I'm a single parent and all that kind of stuff. And we went through all sorts of stuff with that, but I was like, in the end, I was like, you got, you gotta forgive me for that time. Because I genuinely feel that I was doing my, my, my dad thing. And it may not have been that I was able to do both dad things, but I really feel like I've done us a solid. And we're in a position now where there's a lot of things that make us able to provide a life for River, quality life, and our own presence now in more empowered ways, like our time and our energy. And we have the home and we have those things. And so I've been like, you gotta— like, that was my way, that was my thing, you know? And it might have been not exactly what you wanted me to do and the version of dad that you thought I would be, but that was— that was— that felt right for me. Um, so ambition's an interesting one, like, in that, um, yeah, I'm ambitious to a point. I just want to live a great life.. And that sometimes means work because it's like, cool, that's a great opportunity, that's a great opportunity. But not money for money's sake, or don't want a big house, don't want to end up with a lot of regrets.

Tommy: Um, you think there's something appealing about that feeling like a ghost at the end of the day?

Tom: Yeah, for sure, definitely. I think, I think, yeah, I think I can only talk on behalf of myself, but I think um, you know, the badge of honour of knowing that you wasted yourself, you know. Like, I really did a good job today. I really, you know, smashed it out and I managed to achieve and I got that done. Like, um, to a point, yeah, there's a feeling of coming home, um, going like, yeah, I did a job today. Not like I said, not that it's like then you're there and you're like, I wish I had more. I wish I had more to give now that I'm home, but I do think it can be difficult to, to look after yourself in the way that you will have that energy at home, which basically means I'm going to have less ambition for the occupation.

Josh: What, uh, what recharges your batteries emotional— emotionally?

Tom: Um, I love a float.

Josh: Float tank?

Tom: Yeah, I haven't had one. Oh, amazing, recommend it. And it's a good place just around the corner.

Tommy: Um, which one is it?

Tom: It's, uh, could give him a plug but I can't remember the name. Yeah, I know, just like in the back street.

Josh: No, that Djokovic was—

Tommy: Beyond Rest.

Tom: Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, Beyond Rest. Yeah, beautiful place. But I'm an introvert, so during the really hard times I was watching, um, so the footy, like just watching a game of footy a week. It was like nobody's messing with my 2 hours, I'm just gonna sit there and watch The footy. And, um, is that gardener guy in Tassie?

Josh: Um, oh yeah, not the guy with big beard.

Tommy: No, no, that's the one I was thinking of.

Tom: No, he's a different guy. He's got, he's got crow heads. Fat Pig Farm he runs. This guy started his own hobby farm and he's been making series about it, but it's like 25 minutes and it's just like nothing. Like each show he basically just goes and finds something in the garden, cook something. It's so slow. So they were my two things during the busiest time. Nobody messed with that sacred time.

Josh: Yeah.

Tom: And then, um, yeah, the float, like just whole world blacked out. And yeah, just, just an hour where I— like nothing recharges me as much. Nothing, nothing puts me back in my body as much as that. Like not a meditation or a massage or anything. Like I, I started doing them on Friday night so that I finished the week and do one. There's a place nearby our place in, in, uh, on the Mornington Peninsula, and it would just give me a Sunday feeling on Friday afternoon. I'd be like, great, I'm at least present for my weekend.

Josh: I love that. Yeah, I love it.

Tommy: You know, they say with, uh, chefs— I don't know if this is true— but like, they don't really cook good shit at home because they've been cooking all day. Uh, as someone who's playing in sort of that mental health—

Tom: yeah—

Tommy: space, do you feel like sometimes there's a bit of hypocrisy or like, um, a misalignment in regards to what you're communicating versus your personal situation?

Tom: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like I was saying before, I think I was literally just talking to my wife about it the other day. I— when I'm not— when I'm not busy and I've got space, I'm incredibly thoughtful with her and with my friends. And I, I'm— I do things like, uh, you know, what'd you do for Valentine's Day?

Tommy: Because you've been— you're on winding then?

Tom: Yeah, nothing. Still, you're still floating, not even a card. Yeah.

Josh: Um, you've got 3 months off to make it up.

Tommy: Yeah, it's just, it's a hallmark.

Tom: But like, um, yeah, like I remember, you know, doing a thing for Paige. I was away for, for 2 weeks for something and I did, you know, 15 Days of Awesome and made these little envelopes and there was a little, you know, like treasure hunt around the house to get something every day.

Tommy: So is it all or nothing with you? Is it like, yeah, big time.

Tom: Go big or go home, definitely, or nothing. And so when I'm putting all that creative energy and presence and thought into building the businesses, at times I'm not putting it into my friends and my family. If I'm thinking of a friend, um, and I'm thinking, oh, I haven't seen this person, I love doing this with them and that, I'll often, like, if I've got space, I'll text it to them. Hey, just thinking, I just love having you in my life and and how was this time, we got to do more of that. And I haven't done much of that over the last 3 years because I've been putting all that energy out elsewhere, which is, which is an irony, you know. But at the same time, I'm pragmatic and realistic in that, um, you can't— I don't believe that I could have started what I have started with my wife and, and with all of our amazing team. I just couldn't have grunted that into existence without some trade-off. And I've got a— when I get home at night and, you know, at the end of these 3 years, I've got to, you know, go to bed at night comfortable with my decision and comfortable that I did trade off over that time. But hopefully it won't cost me in the long run, and I'll look back and say that was a good trade-off because I got, I got 10 times back, you know, um, what I sacrificed.

Tommy: Because some people, I guess, get on the treadmill and they say in 3 years we're going to go on the family holiday and you know, okay, in, in 3 years' time, and then before you know it, it's been 20 years.

Tom: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: And then deaths happen. Yeah, yeah, life changes and they never get to, to celebrate. What do you think about retirement?

Tom: Yeah, I don't think I'll ever retire because I love my job. I just love it. I love facilitation. I love the human condition. I love being in a room with people that are talking real and, and making discoveries. And I just love it. I'm never going to give it up. I'll only be better, I think, you know, in the years where I should be retiring. Um, but I'll work less for sure. And, you know, to that point around the— yeah, some people say 3 years and then 20 years down the track, um, they've forgotten how to do anything other than that. I, I like— I worry about that. Like, when we were setting off, I was saying to good friends, like, they were— because they were worried about me, like, mate, you're changing, you know, like, like, like, you're going pretty hard. Like, how long can you keep this up for? And I would say them, I feel like I'm doing a deal with the devil a bit it. Like, I'm gonna go hard. This part of me is gonna drive the car for a little while, and I really hope that I'll be able to make good on a promise that I'm gonna shift gears and do it differently from there on. And jury's out. I don't, I don't know.

Tommy: So would you have a defined— because obviously if you think about, like, you read all the goal-setting books, it's like you need to be— you have a definition of done. You need to have something in the future where you say that where we've arrived.

Tom: Yeah.

Tommy: Do you have a sense of what that looks like?

Tom: Well, yeah, we've arrived. Yeah, because it wasn't about like big means and things like I said, we don't want a massive house and all that kind of stuff. But I had a point and I believed it was about the 3-year mark and we'll get to there and things will, I'll have been able to extricate myself and make the business a bit independent of me and stuff like that. And at that point we're going to take some serious time back and won't return to that same pace again.

Tommy: And so you're about to enter into that transitional point of— is there a sense that you need to unlearn?

Tom: Oh, big time. Yeah, I think that's why I've been pretty, you know, rubbish the last couple of weeks because I'm starting to come to terms with unlearning and it's like feeling brutal. It feels a bit like, you know, like, I don't know, like detoxing.

Josh: You've got really strong in one area.

Tom: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: The part that's driving the car, they got really strong. Yeah. About powering up the other muscle, which feels weird.

Tom: It just feels a bit abnormal, you know, because I've kind of gotten used to it a bit. So yeah, definitely there's this transitional shit moment.

Josh: Well, I think the way not to get stuck in the 20 years goes by and you realise you fucked it all is to be thinking about and talking about it. And what you do for a living, and it's what you're doing right now, talking about the situation that you're entering into. So you're actually in it.

Tom: Yeah.

Josh: So there's real power to that. And you've done something amazing. The thing you've built is really important to men of our era.

Tommy: Is it getting better? Do you think Australia as a whole, when you're having conversations, do you think that we're on the right path at the moment?

Tom: Definitely. Yeah, we're definitely on the right path for sure. I think that the stats aren't getting better at the moment, but there's a lot of factors towards those stats. I think life is becoming more complex. We're more connected but more isolated through these devices. You know, there are pressures that we're all facing and dealing with. So that's one thing. But I do think that there's a significant shift in, you know, like I said, all these organisations popping up. And our generation of guys are going, we're not waiting, we're doing something about it. I mean, we start this thing, start a group, start a walking group, the boys, we can change it, we can do it differently.

Tommy: Are we ready for it? Are we actually as a whole, as society? It feels like as we start to talk about big things, you know, like climate change and like it starts to become this situation where once we're like, it's always been— these things have always been happening. We're only just fucking talking about it now. And it feels like talking about it makes it real. Yeah. Which then starts to easily spiral into everything's fucked. Yeah. What's your perspective on how we can have these conversations and be better on the other side rather than getting into that spiral?

Tom: Yeah, I think it's about agency and realising that, you know, that things can happen around you. So like when, when, you know, workshop finishes or something like that and you're saying the cavalry is not coming, I'll often tell them about 5 storeys of blokes who did these things that seem amazing on the outside but this is how it all happened. Like, you know, there's an amazing guy in Sydney that runs a thing called Head Above Water, and he was telling me— I was like, how did you get into this? A huge event, the media is coming down, there's all these people rocking up to swim non-stop for, you know, 24 hours and all this kind of stuff. And he said, oh, I, um, my wife, uh, got diagnosed with terminal cancer, and I thought I just did the man thing, thought I was sorting it out. She went into remission and I actually fell off a cliff emotionally because I'd been repressing it all and didn't need to hold on anymore and ended up in an institution, you know. And he said, my mates had come by and they'd pick me up every day and they'd bring me to this pool and I could only like swim half a lap most mornings because I was so emotionally depleted. But they just kept getting me and kept bringing me here. So, you know, I'm going to swim 5Ks in the pool today, like, and they've helped me do that. And he said, then he rocked up at that event that event where the guy stood up in the middle of the room and he was like, I was in there and here I am thinking, I know some blokes, I could do something, like we could do something. So he's like, I left that event and I called my mates and I said, let's do this Head Above Water thing. And here we are, you know, they're about to run it again, um, you know, a little bit later this month. So it's kind of like when a guy hears that, you know, oh, that's what his mates did, and that caused a chain reaction, then he picked his phone up and said, hey, should we do an event down the pool. A lot of guys go, oh, that's the recipe. Oh, maybe I could do something like that, you know. And so I think it's about agency. It's about going, yeah, there's a big issue out there, but what can I do in my own backyard? And who's done a backyard thing that's ended up actually being big?

Josh: Mate, I love it. Tommy, thanks for coming in, buddy.

Tommy: And would like to get you on in like 3 months' time once you're on the other, other end. It would be interesting getting that perspective. Yeah. When you have time to actually chill the fuck out.

Tom: Yeah, maybe. Yeah, that'd be nice.

Josh: It'll be easy.

Tom: I'd love to.

Josh: Yeah, it'll be in the float tank.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, you might finish it.

Tom: Wow. Yeah, we have to do a new child. I keep saying to people, yeah, I'm having 3 months off. They're like, 3 months off? You know what it's like to have a newborn.

Josh: Yeah, a good way to rattle the system.

Tommy: Exactly. It's a Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. Please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts. Feel free to give us a review there too. Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys. See you guys.