0:03
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 591. happening guys what's going on? Happy Tuesday. We're back after a long weekend. The tennis is on at the moment in Melbourne. I mean the Tennessee's keeping people up at night. Julian Hague said to me he's had about seven hours sleep in the last five days because he's been going and he said he snuck into one game And anyway,

0:28
he snuck in, they snuck in you can sneak you can you can do naughty stuff at the 10th but then he hopefully you can find a seat. You remember the pest talking about naughty stuff at the tennis there was the guy who came on to the court and was bet he did the same thing at the Grand Prix. They caught him the past year he was appropriate name if you type in the past. It was like public does if you type in like public disturbance, Australian Open Grand Prix. Well I get it if he's doing it for a YouTube channel. Now it scared me he was sort of he was it was before YouTube, crossing the road.

1:00
Yeah, if you

1:03
actually had a light it was jaywalking this morning and sort of did the thing where you go halfway across the road Yeah, it's you know traffic going both ways you can see it safe the what the side closer to you so you sort of go into the middle of the car

1:18
and this lady wouldn't have it like she stopped right where I was going across might have been American American stop for you if you walk on the road now but she stopped just after me so I would have walked in. It was like passing Yeah, real passive. I mean, this the so that's keeping people up. What's fake Happy New up, Josh.

1:38
I spent I was telling you before nine and a half hours of screen time yesterday on and I spoke to so what did you use at the one time that you weren't on your phone? like looking at it, but you're speaking to somebody on an hour record? Yeah. I mean, that would add up to the I just heard a little bang but does remind me on Saturday night at the

2:00
In the city with that Lunar New Year is firecrackers going off. Hey Jordan, Michael ladies is that Yeah. And so you could hear them from your job it's full on it sounded like some form of thing you don't want to hear yeah explosions and she like a little bit serious they are little crackers that but ya know, so I use my phone for nine and a half hours got to the point because a lot of screen time which finally I got seems like pro living Max. Max meant to be the biggest battery managed to get the battery to run out of juice by like, 7pm that's solid though. That is That's right. Yeah, dude. And so did you make an exception to say, I didn't give a sheet. How am I time? Yeah, I'm just using it and I'm using it well, so the reason I was on the phone was because I wrote an article on our the daily talk show website you did. We love it. You sent the text throws a slack message from iterate. I was reading that then you sent me the text message of the article said

3:00
I wasn't really like taking us there wasn't confirmation he was doing his due diligence. Yeah, we get ready to check over it. And the thing is braze a good filter because she, if she doesn't understand she'll be it's very annoying, but she was that I don't understand. Yeah, it's like some of the most annoying feedback you can get. But she was like, are you and I understand it's great. So we spoke to Jordan Michael ladies from uncommon podcast on Saturday. And we're talking about this issue with the Australian podcast rancour, which is the commercial radio Australia and even a governing body what are they like? Their they represent all commercial radio networks and so you got the AFL Players Association which represents all of the players and so he's in a similar vein they they're taking a fee and they're sort of the the governing body or something like that. I don't know if the governing bodies the the right word, but it basically CRA represents all the the right to now

4:00
works and they came out last year in 2019. With this Australian podcast rancour, where they said, hey, we've created charts. So if you want to see the top 100 podcasts, just come over here to the Australian podcast ranker sounds very official does. And then you click through and you say all the only podcasts, there seems to be a lot of radio shows. And then you discover that at the moment, at the time that they released it, they were only doing their sort of member showers. So all of the podcast, all the Indies, all the even shameless, Mamma Mia. Some of the biggest podcasts in Australia weren't even on the charts. So that's when you you realise that you started smelling Sup? Yeah, does that can you smell that? I can smell it. But the thing is that we had a bunch of people come out to us at the time and say this is bullshit. What's going on? Yeah, and we were sort of like ah, we just

5:00
Like let it you know, die out because I eventually will. But then something happened that started to annoy me. So I subscribe to a lot of radio shows and their podcast feeds and that you know, subscribe to them. And what I was noticing is all the shows weren't just releasing their full episode they went doing like an hour long episode, they'll now doing the hour long episode, and they'll doing all of these bonus bits. So I click Refresh. And sometimes my whole page on my phone was filled with extra bits. So six or seven bits from the day amazing that you had three different shows doing does pineapple belong

5:42
on that? Did you see that? There's a kiwi pizza now like a kiwi fruit. Yeah, it was done exactly what we criticise But yeah, I heard a radio person talking about and they brought up the pineapple pizza But anyway, it's it's a tried and tested

5:58
and just throw it out.

6:00
So the reason this is happening is because the way the podcast rancour works is it takes Monday to Sunday on awake. And it says it has your total weekly downloads based over a four week period over the month.

6:15
Now, if you want to increase the amount of downloads, all you do is you could do it the organic way of trying to get more people to actually download and listen. Or you could just have more content that they're downloading Subscribers get pushed more of your own content, so your feed, that's why it's full of stuff that you didn't really want. You just wanted the show, but now it pushes all the other little bits. And so the I mean, the funny thing is that a machine Andy only does like 40 episodes a year, and they appeared on the top of the rancour which shows the power of how big they are, because you had people who are or shows that are releasing five days a week

6:57
and saying, Oh, you know, we're getting close to you know, on the

7:00
A charts or whatever time in any consideration is yet you do five shows a week. You should be why high because your downloads should be five times that have a podcast that doesn't want to wake. And so anyway, I finally decided to write this article. What kind of mood were you in when you wrote it? You know?

7:19
So um, I'd had a coffee. Yeah, okay, so ya know, so I went to pEv loves dark. Yeah. On Sure. You should be saying like

7:33
I mean witness protection now.

7:35
No, so you went to Pavlov's dog. Got a got a coffee. It was actually funny because because it was a public holiday. I decided to get a cappuccino instead of a flat white or that thing will cost you 10 bucks. Yeah, because it was a surcharge on the public and also like it really rattled them. Because I like I just one large flat white mic on I can you actually make that a cappuccino? Are you living on the edge because you wanted a bit of shock?

8:00
Hotel Okay, so then I start I got out my, it's Monday.

8:04
So it was great. It wasn't a mocker

8:08
get bogged down what I was drinking, but so I got my phone I, I use an app, which I love. And I've standby. So I've been using notion, but I didn't I don't use notion when it comes to writing. I'm using drafts. Okay. And so drafts is an app that works very well on iPhone and Mac and it sort of syncs up so why did you write this on your phone? So I started writing on the phone, okay, and so I started grabbing on bits on the phone and I'm like, okay, sort of the different arguments or the different elements and then I went home and went on to the laptop and actually had to make the bed because I want to lie on the bed. And and it wasn't nice. And so I wrote shades by the way white dude and have a white shades all white nightmare for some nightmare for kids to a chocolate in the bed, which I don't do any which

8:59
actually good incentive.

9:00
Not to eat chocolate Exactly. So you shovelling it you know and just enjoy yourself

9:06
but and sorry and I wrote the rest and did my due diligence in rating apple of the commercial radio Australia stuff around what beds so and you've gone down a full rabbit hole. It's the 711 expose a it's the Obama takedown. It's now the What do you call this one? The podcast rancour is dumb. Yeah, yeah. What do you think of the title? I loved it. It's just so so straightforward. What I want to say All right, come out and say dumb mangy can't talk. You know, like in school if you told someone dumb. you out? Yeah, I probably so it doesn't translate that well, but I think it was good. So I did it. And then I sent it I just did a big send to all these different media people and started getting emails back. This is exactly what my son I did to the 11. And it's tried and tested method. And so then it's very addictive. It's the perfect time. We were riding high that day, wasn't it Friday.

10:00
Yeah, but didn't we calling out 711? I mean, what was

10:06
the bike one? Definitely. Yeah, I mean, I did go on to the project. So we put that video out. And then on a Friday night I went on the project to talk about 711 coffee and Miss 97. And I went down to make sure like you did your due diligence by looking at the CRA website and the backs mean a backstories. Mason, I went down and I filmed doing the test again. And then I hit and then I like a little bit, send that footage to them.

10:35
They said to me, they said the question which I knew was going to be asked is like

10:42
that it was something like so tell me how it happens like short just wasn't the one time and then I was like not went today. And they pulled up the footage as I said it so that way.

10:54
I love it there. Yeah, yeah. And just and then they actually say, cut to the 49 didn't matter.

11:00
Any touch sheep, they just put it up. Yeah, I mean the other thing I did because I had the idea it before Monday on Saturday night when Brian and I were going out to dinner I just was like, I wonder. So one of the things that I hate about this whole rank rancour is they're calling it such a generic name. I know it's a bit rich coming from the dead.

11:21
We are the daily talk show. Australian podcast ranka implies that they are the king of rank it like they're the Australian podcast rank or if you hear that 97 What do you assume and you hear Australian podcast Yeah. Real official. Yeah, like the Australian represents all of us. Yeah, it's like the government set it up. Yeah, it's like this it but it's got as much

11:44
sort of official

11:46
official

11:48
word as, as the the bakeries that say that they've, they do the best stop blocks.

11:57
Grace just said Joshua's club should have been called the

12:00
Cool that club.

12:04
Anyway,

12:06
sorry, I ended up getting the domain name, Australian podcast ranker.com. Just Just read that, let that sit, you have a good domain name. We love just taking the time to appreciate when a good domain has been purchased. And we need a song, we need a some kind of sound effect. Maybe we can get some sort of like

12:27
venture IPS dinosaur could make some noise. And we use that as the idea like you just bought a great domain or something. And so they

12:37
so initially when I got that I was like, Oh, I'm going to create our own rancour. And sort of but then what I thought is that we could easily just be disregarded as just being a couple of clowns. And so I went down a little bit more of a serious option and just use the domain name to redirect to the article. I like you said make it easy for everyone. Here's how you can, guys and so anyway

13:00
answer why didn't they have? Why didn't they buy that domain? Well, that's really the name of what they're trying to do. What I think that Australian businesses

13:10
the the what they think is are we just need the dollar you, which is john in john, if we just get the data you were in Australia, which in defence if you're trying to SEO something, it helps. Yeah. So if you're trying to optimise and you are Australian, and so I would never get the Donahue because there is all these laws around like you've got a ABN uni and Australian Business number to have it. And so they've done that. And I'm not I'm not sure but the Donahue wasn't available. I wouldn't have gotten the dollar you anyway. But I got the the.com. But yeah, so I spent the good portion of the day, not only saving it out, but I was getting all of these messages from people who were in the industry, who were saying, for one though, like Finally, I've been talking to my boss about this and they say you just got to play the game. But the other one that was interesting was a few independent podcasts.

14:00
Who are bigger than us in regards to download and success?

14:07
They came to me and said, Hey, absolutely love the article. Also, commercial. Radio Australia wants to charge between 150 and $200 a month for any independent, independent creator, to be in the charts, just to be honest, yeah, so think about this. We should crack the charts if we can get 1000. But how many podcasts are there in Australia? I reckon we know about 50. podcast. Yeah. What do you what do you reckon serves? Can you find that number? I know there's like, you know, over 700,000 podcasts,

14:43
Apple podcasts, but just imagine if you were able to get 1000 podcasts in Australia to pay 200 bucks to be on a rank or we could make 200 grand a month. That's a good business model. Yeah. And so anyway, it's a good one.

15:00
Those things I've done this is not to say that they making that money now through the radio stations or no, the radio stations are already paying them a fee for being

15:09
partners or whatever members. Yeah, I can. So it's, but the thing is, and a few people have asked

15:16
I've actually had one person who was sort of defending it, and they're like, what is your solution? Is it what's in it for you or your solution to their approach? Yeah, well, you know, what's this? If you're saying no to this? What do you think the solution is? And I don't know what the which is a classic one when you say it, miss. Yeah, yeah, well, we get what do you want to eat for dinner then? Yeah.

15:39
You don't want pace if you don't want burger. Hey, you. You told me Yeah, I'll have whatever. Yeah, and you don't want carbs. But you also don't feel like me? You know what, let's just not eat tonight. That's a bit what it feels like.

15:52
And so, anyway, I think that the it's complex, and I think that going down the rabbit hole of trying

16:00
to design something potentially falls into the trap of playing the finite game that is trying to rank everyone against each other, which I don't necessarily think that there needs to be more context. And you didn't also put your hand up in relation to

16:18
creating something creating a ranking system. I'm just saying the current one is flawed. And it's not only flawed from an independent creative point of view, but it's bad for the radio industry, because every radio show is being pressured. And so I this was, this was purely my assumption, right, based on being a listener. I was like, they're being told that they need to upload this thing. And I sort of said there, I was sort of matter of fact about it. This is what's happening. But now that I've published it, people have actually come out and said,

16:50
our representative within the business, saying that we need to do this. We need to be posting more content to our feed to increase our rank.

17:00
So that was the cheese, which I think is bad for the radio industry. So I think that while I think it's good for short term gain with commercialization of podcasting, and being relevant as an audio business that then has, so if someone said, radio people aren't listening anymore, this for all that podcasting is I know, they're actually also listening to podcast. And also listen, Dre. Is that the is that where they know why I think that the thing is that what the people who support the the stream podcast ranka would say is that there is no single solution right now, for any podcaster to go to advertisers, whether that's through agencies or direct to client, and to give a good state of the industry and say, this is where we fit. And so the thing is that Yeah, you're right. We don't play the CPM game. We've had some great successes recently that proved to

18:00
Boss that you don't have to just play the CPM game, which is the amount of money an advertiser pays you per thousand downloads which then in that case, you could just

18:12
do more episodes, five numbers. Also, you can pay for down. You could push that number through and you The thing is there's so many different elements that you can always you can look at it, which I was pretty specific because you could easily say okay, well this is ay ay ay b two point O data, which is the standard that was created globally around how we measure

18:35
downloads. And so in layman's terms, when Facebook were just counting anything, anyone just swapping past the video is as a view before they changed that. It was the similar nature of podcasting before it went to what you just said. Yeah. And so I don't know. I mean, the funny thing was this morning, I said,

18:53
we got a few publications, media people reach out to us and said, Hey, we want to write stories and they're asking for photos. So we do

19:00
Obviously prioritise during our whip.

19:03
meeting, we went out and did a little photo.

19:08
Sometimes pressure just needs to be applied to get the photoshoot to happen. And I needed to do it for a long time. The most controversial bit was whether I could wear my headphones or not

19:18
wearing headphones. Yeah.

19:22
I think just to sort of cover sort of my neck right it will just define my name is around my you look right. And with any kind of outwardly facing columns that can

19:35
call out equal equal, we could call it I called them out. Yeah, he cancelled the night while you don't cancel them. Yeah, some people cancel things. No one decides to cancel should I do? I also mentioned, I did send it to Seth Godin. I said, What do you think?

19:50
He said, and he did say revolutions are messy.

19:57
Okies advice of make a ruckus? Yeah, absolutely.

20:00
What I was saying so I just want to say, when you do do any kind of call out of whatever you've done, whatever you want to call it, like I did with 711, expect some death threats. Well, people who just don't really appreciate it, and for some reason for some kind of bias that they may have, I got threats from 711 workers that were saying, you remember that saves? Yeah, yeah, I was like, shut up.

20:28
And so but I think that there will be like, if you imagine how many people you're going to expect that there's at least 100 people that a somewhat sold are being sold in on this idea, which actually push back on because I'm sure there's a bunch of shows that are on there that don't want to be on there. But let's just say there are a few people who need this to work in regards to keeping their jobs or all that sort of thing. Yeah. And so I wouldn't be surprised if we look at the articles. We don't have comments on ours by could imagine in the broader media plants.

21:00
Skype we will say people calling out the fact of I think the biggest criticism will be like, these guys don't make fucking Matt like we're just trying to like make this industry work and I think that they've gone about it the wrong way.

21:13
What

21:14
scooter Derek says Josh Assange

21:18
Yeah, I'll take that.

21:20
I will be happy.

21:24
Which embassy Should I move to? Not the Ecuador one.

21:29
But what about the US Embassy has a nice little cafe area at the front that's it. But I think

21:38
give I don't know if you can live in the embassy. You can't. Okay. Anything else? Anyone else? Yeah, ashes, buddy one the first set for those playing along at home again? Oh, yeah. The body party.

21:50
The fashion Avenue podcast says what? That's criminal in relation to the charging today on the rise. Yeah, I mean, this is we need compromise.

22:00
I want to know if radio stations or the people that were in that first hundred paid and what their fucking money was for yeah for you didn't build a website what was the cost so that's what just an email so the thing is no so if you think about the

22:15
Triton digital is working with commercial radio Australia and so they had this there would be annoying admin associated with getting someone's numbers and then making sure that they work but the thing is that if you're going to take this on, you can't absorb that cost I don't think at the independent creator stage if you want to be the industry standard. You just need to make it work because yeah, I just think it's criminal otherwise what else? Ben said morning boys morning bit of Shannon says Fuck it. You're not looking for a job in commercial radio. Yes, absolutely. Rush I just shake down baby. Yes.

22:57
What did you say take down Tuesday. Take down Tuesday.

23:00
That's what I coined it. And look at that I've taken down a few. I mean, I'm fully taking them down Yellow Pages, which is,

23:08
when I had a blog called Melvin geek Yellow Pages, basically, we're trying to sense this was the bigger, overarching organisation. They were using really dodgy tactics to try and get small businesses to sign up. And I spoke to them on the phone. And they were basically saying, we can guarantee organic

23:32
search engine optimization, they're basically saying that they would be able to get me on to number one on Google, and that they had a special partnership with Google that allowed them to do it, which was completely false. And so and now promoting that and so they'll put the the person on the phone was actively saying, Hey,

23:50
we can get you on the top page. And I'm like, What do you mean through ads and they're like, no, organically, and and then they brought up their relationship with Google and

24:00
So it turned out to be complete bullshit. And so I wrote a complete article about it and census ended up having to remember the guy's name Damien glass. I wonder if he still works at census, but he had to put together this. I loved it because I was like, this 21 year old, this is fine. You know, he's he's page A's and beric writing articles. And they had to come out with an official statement. And what was the statement saying that we don't official like that we don't have this relationship that allows for the organic stuff. And interestingly, and this is the thing with the CRA stuff. We are very good with search engine optimization, like is one of the best Yeah. And and so when the thing with the Yellow Pages thing is I ranked number one for Yellow Pages scam. So I had hundreds of comments from people saying the same thing happened and they were you and it was great small businesses. Were using the article that I'd written to help get them out of contract. I didn't know this dude. Yeah, you didn't tell me I really it's so funny.

25:00
And so what do you what do you want? So why? What do you want CRA to do? What do you want them to write? In response? Or what do you want them to share in response to what you've written? So I think that they need to create I think they need to rebrand the Z got that

25:23
needs it they can't actually sell it. I'm not someone asked that. I said, you holding it ransom. I'm not selling them the mind you said. This is just a demand I've got. The thing is that don't call it the Australian podcast. ranker if it is not a representation of the strain podcast industry, so that's the first thing. So call it the radio shows that have podcast ranka Yeah, it doesn't have such what do you what do you look at that? No, I was about say just call it the what commercial radio Australia podcast. Ranko Yeah. That's the commercial radio Australia very specific podcast ranking.

26:00
For only a small number of shows, I mean, as soon as I read it as much as we are an independent media brand, and I've, we are a big media company as well. Yes, we are, let's say our name. Yeah. Big media company paid a while today. I

26:15
feel it gave me a visceral response when I saw it. And I just, I didn't quite understand it. I'm sure that's what all these people that have contacted you have actually, they felt that too when they saw it. They're like, what is this make sense? Like your podcast app has the top shows in it? Is that like, and so the thing is, what do we what do we hate? It's like the Instagram we hate the manipulation of our feeds. Right? And so this is an indirect manipulation of our feeds because it is promoting radio shows or anyone that's on the podcast ranker to upload more. And so, is it like we can we can actually draw a line? We can we can connect the dots between when the Australian podcast right

27:00
started. And when radio show started releasing more than one thing a day on the feeds and so the accusation Yeah. And so I think that we need to.

27:10
Yeah, so they obviously need to do to do the rebrand thing. They can't call it the stream podcast, rancour? I think it's just, it's too confusing, too confusing for advertisers?

27:22
I think that they need to relook at how the rancour is working in regards to should you be ranking, a show that does five days a week with one that does one day awake? And

27:37
if you need to do that, how are you going to communicate that to advertisers? And I think that the biggest issue is that this is a philosophical issue around

27:49
the way downloads are saying and so what they're saying is downloads right now is saying by advertisers is like just the number. And so the higher the download number, the more they pay. Yeah, yeah. And what we're saying

28:00
Is that all downloads aren't made equal. There is simple cast have something called unique listen listeners, which, which is more nuanced and short tries to reflect or show you a user, rather how many downloads rather than downloads, how many people which averaging 100,000 downloads, it could be only 3000 people that are going through your catalogue. And so the thing is like that, that's on new ones. And I think there's a way to go before we get to the unique listener stuff. But I just think that the current way that it's done with looking at downloads without the context of even like demographics, like there's no reflection of where people are located. Are these Australian audiences? are they based mainly in Melbourne? Are they like, when we're working with advertisers? We believe that demographics psychographics all these other things outside of just the core number, community and get like how many people

29:00
are actually interacting with you. I mean, I've had one of my best mates worked as a sales person in the radio industry. And he said, I'm fucking selling air. He didn't give it like the what he would tell the person to get the sale. Yeah. I mean, he's not in the industry anymore. But he said that that was pretty common stead common practice. Yeah. And so Seth Godin talks about Gary Vee talks about people buying TV advertising and what and why people why even big companies are still buying the legacy purchase. It's the old executive who needs to be seen to be buying TV spots. And so there is a flow on and a change that needs to be made. When numbers and digital the digital era is so transparent as it should be. The real what how many people listen to radio, you answer that.

29:54
Honestly, you don't know you can't know. You don't take a study of 2000 people

30:00
There's 100, you know, 250,000 people in this suburb listening. It doesn't work like that these days. It cannot work like that these days. Yeah. And I think that the other thing too is what's disappointing is it feels like for one,

30:14
commercial radio Australia, have known about podcasting. For what, 15 years at 2004 podcasting started. It is taken them 15 years to slow it, like do some sort of risk, but this is their response. And what's frustrating is that response is based on them trying to keep the power that they already have. And as Seth Godin says, revolutions are messy, so on that anything else serves? No jasna says how do I score one of your jumpers? I'm hooked on the podcast. Thanks, guys. That was that we haven't really done any Yeah, any hoodies left. We did a big sort of run of those at last year, and I think we will

31:00
Coming into the colder months when t shirts though.

31:04
Yeah, what we should do some t shirts. Yeah. I love it. Maybe we won't do any sort of

31:13
just the charge just rancors a full blanket.

31:17
It's a good

31:20
Did you have a good good weekend anyway? Yeah, I mean, we worked we had episodes recorded that went happened on nice time in July that was a little less family outing. Mr. 97 just

31:35
creating you know, moisture in the on the earth

31:39
and horrible to the water. It was swimming with old man is your has your chest Can you show me his chest? Can you pull up your top? Yeah, it's all scratched because bowling had these little my son had his little floaties on and you're throwing him off and when you came out you would like cut up? Yeah. From his flight. He's all the plastic. Yes. He junk the

32:00
burger at the beach is ridiculous. Yes If you're enjoying the beach house go it's the private sector daily talk show sent you you'll ask you what he's

32:12
still worth it

32:14
says before we go fashion Avenue podcast said goodbye Frank is a full ankus budget. Yeah. Perfect. Digital provided if I did the bike fishing t shirt

32:25
within an ice, can you just do it outside of business hours? Because rancors for blanket rancors thinking What did I say? rancors. Right. Because

32:37
if you have any feedback, you can send an email to me personally as well. Josh at the daily talk show calm and this is especially if you are CRI yeah cuz I don't need that in my

32:49
sleep. Yeah, I wonder Yeah, be interesting. Like if we got it wrong. My brother's made. He's on the board of see

32:56
going around, you know, hopefully they're having a meeting about it right now.

33:00
Making the fix it said Mr. guys have a good one say guys