Reframing Starting With Tommy's Bro

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 590.

Tommy: What's happening, guys? What's going on? Welcome back, Marky Jacket.

Michael: Thank you for having me.

Tommy: I've got a beer in my hand, I can't— I can't, um, clap.

Josh: You don't clap much, to be honest.

Tommy: Oh, cheers, you, Jacko.

Michael: Thanks.

Josh: Here we go, to the SodaStream. Cheers, cheers.

Tommy: Uh, lovely Stomping Ground Brewing Co beer.

Josh: Um, Jacko, are you a big water drinker?

Michael: Yeah, at work I am because I've got the routine down. I've got a bottle bottle next to me and I keep feeling it.

Josh: Oh, that's good.

Michael: On the weekend though, goes out the window.

Tommy: He actually goes against it. He hates it. So on the weekend he hates it.

Josh: Yeah, doesn't drink it. I mean, water is— it's such an easy thing to do but so hard.

Michael: It needs to be part of a routine, I think. Otherwise you just forget, um, and then you take a piss at the end of the day and you're like, fuck, that's yellow.

Josh: It's like butter.

Tommy: You've never met a guy more descriptive about his lack of hydration. And that's Josh Jansen. Yeah.

Josh: Oh yeah, I reckon the other day I was—

Tommy: it's fucking nuclear fluid.

Josh: Yeah, I felt like it was the— my spinal fluid came to it, you know, when your back gets really sore, it just goes all— yeah. Oh my God, coffee. And it's to the point where it's like the bit that's jelly in between what it looks like, things have just gone dry.

Tommy: See what you're explaining? Uh, epidural.

Josh: No, I've had an epidural.

Tommy: Have you seen the liquid?

Josh: No, I didn't, because it's a big fucking needle.

Tommy: And yeah, so you're talking from experience. I'm talking from watching someone have it. The liquid is like the thing you're describing in a bag and it drips down. Did you not remember? Did Claire have an epidural? No, she didn't have one. No.

Josh: Hero.

Tommy: My wife did, so. Yeah, all right.

Michael: So it's in a bag, so it feeds it like in through a drip.

Tommy: I thought it was an injection. It's a bag of liquid dropping down and it's got you, you're basically on your tummy or on your side and they've fed this thing into your spine, into the area.

Josh: Yeah. My guess is it drops down and pushes the liquid into your wherever. I think it'd be different for different things.

Tommy: Non-pregnant guy.

Josh: So I think that for me, I'm not like going through a birth.

Tommy: So maybe it's less.

Josh: So it was just like, just straight away they put it in.

Tommy: Injection?

Josh: Yeah.

Michael: Where did you have it?

Josh: Where or when?

Michael: No, no, where did they put it?

Josh: They put it in my back. Yeah, spine. And so they—

Tommy: I had— It was specifically— Wanted to know exact—

Josh: Oh, I don't know what it sounded like, but no, they, um, yeah, went to a sports doctor. He was sort of saying, oh, I don't think— Like, before I had the MRI, I think he was a little bit skeptical. Yeah, he's like, oh, you should be okay, just go to, um, get this MRI done, blah blah blah. This is a guy who was like very laissez-faire about the whole thing. Then I came back and he was like, yeah, that's fucked up. And he's like, 80% chance you'll need surgery within the next 3 months.

Michael: Oh shit.

Josh: And so they gave me the epidural and then I was like, I lost like 15 kilos because I'm like, I'd much prefer— before doing any of the surgery, how about actually just be a healthy weight?

Tommy: Yeah, you're scared.

Michael: So when you had the epidural, did you lose feeling from your legs down? Or—

Josh: No, yeah, no, no, it's a fair question. No, but no, no, they say obviously just a lower dose. Well, it's a cortisone-like injection, different cortisol, but it's still called an epidural. What is an epidural, Seb? I think an epidural is an injection into the spine.

Tommy: I thought epidural was a substance that is like a li—

George: No, an epidural is a spinal procedure that delivers anaesthetic or painkilling drugs to nerves that convey pain.

Tommy: What were they putting into Amy's back?

Josh: And so that's what happened. So it'd be a painkiller type of thing. And so for me, it's like a, um, what happens if you take a Voltaren? What's that?

Tommy: Like anti-inflammatory?

Josh: Yeah, it's like an anti-inflammatory thing that works over time.

Tommy: You can get them for tennis elbows, as in like, not epidural, but get, um, what you're talking about, cortisone injections. Uh, used to have Osgood-Schlattis as a kid, Michael.

Michael: Yeah, in the—

Josh: fun medical fact—

Michael: in the knees.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Michael: Which I don't know, I mean, I don't know how much that— that was— it was sort of— that's what it was called, but I don't know how much it was like affecting me.

Tommy: That's a big thing.

Josh: What does it do?

Tommy: It's a big thing. Durham McKinnes from Core Advantage, if you have Osgood-Schlattis and you need help, he has an online program. We put it in the link show notes. You can pay for it. It's— he basically helps people get out of it and start reforming.

Michael: Yeah. See, I didn't go to that level. I just like—

Tommy: it's almost like— didn't have the programme online.

Josh: He's the only guy in the world that knows this.

Michael: It's almost like I just stopped talking about it and it just kind of went away.

Tommy: Yeah, that is a bit like JJ's hemorrhoids.

Josh: It sounds like I've got hemorrhoids. I don't.

Tommy: I know.

Michael: You do.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it's a very— it's an interesting point, the whole like, just forget about it, it'll fix. That's how I've treated my ankle because I rolled my ankle walking down.

Tommy: It's a good approach if it wasn't ever that bad and it was healing itself as you go. The problem with Osgood-Schlattis is it can be really bad.

Josh: What does it— what is Osgood-Schlattis?

Tommy: Can you look up— can you find Durham's online program?

Josh: Describe it like you had it or still potentially have it but you're just ignoring it.

Michael: No, it was like in the front of your knee. It was just like a discomfort and it had a bit of a bulge like, or something.

Tommy: I remember your bulge. Yeah, I remember.

Josh: I touched it.

Tommy: I remember feeling your knees. It's not as bad. I remember it when we were kids. It was like, your knee's looking funny, bro. My friend Lachlan had that funny looking knees.

Josh: He had Osgood-Schlatters. He had the ball, like a little bone sort of sticking out type of thing.

Tommy: Weird. Mr. Sevz?

George: Yeah, yeah, I found his, um, course, The Secret to Curing Osgood-Schlatter Disease Pain Elimination.

Josh: What is it? What is the disease?

George: Uh, it's the common cause of knee pain in growing adolescents.

Michael: Oh, it's growing pains.

George: It's an inflammation of the area just below the knee where the tendon from the kneecap attaches to the shin bone.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Tommy: Do you remember growing pains? Do you remember waking up like with furious pain throughout your bones and your legs? Did you have that?

Michael: I don't really remember them. It's top of mind because I just watched Pete Shepherd's TED Talk.

Josh: Oh yeah, he talks about it.

Michael: He talks a lot about that.

Tommy: Growing pains. And he does a bit of a fucking dance.

Michael: You see that?

Josh: Two-step.

Tommy: He does the two-step.

Josh: We were with Harry, Happy Harry, the next day, and a guy, a guy who was high on drugs, was in front of us going, "Ooh." And then he said, "Oh, he's doing Pete's two-step," which was actually quite topic.

Tommy: Fuck, that's funny. Um, so we'll put that in the show notes, Durham's. Yeah, just if you're a young adolescent battling Osgood-Schlatter disease.

Michael: Is it Schlatter or Schlatters?

Tommy: I like Schlatters, it sounds better.

George: It says Osgood-Schlatter disease.

Tommy: Schlatter.

Josh: Schlatters is if you've got two, plural.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, Jaco, you wanted to catch up with us. We, uh, we said yeah, that'd be great, and then you got here and we said let's do a podcast and said and talk about it on the podcast, whatever you wanted to talk about. So what do you want to talk about?

Josh: You know what I mean? Financial trouble.

Tommy: He actually said the opposite. He said some stocks that he has are going pretty well.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know Josh was dealing with 10 mil hemorrhoids.

Tommy: No, he's telling me some stocks he's got have done well, and then I told him about how— sort of stocks, just a stock. You don't have to say if you don't want to.

Josh: What is this?

Tommy: Afterpay. He invested early days of Afterpay.

Josh: Yeah, I've invested in Afterpay too. As in, like, the joke is that you just bought stuff on Afterpay.

Michael: Oh, right.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't actually.

Tommy: But then I told him about how our friend— I mean, he's your friend too— Conspiracy Jimmy bought 5 chairs online, computer chairs, for 1 Bitcoin. Those Bitcoins were worth $18,000 at one point, so he paid $18,000 for 5 computer chairs, bro.

Josh: It's so, it's so far down. Bitcoin now.

Tommy: Anyway, I mean, they're still probably worth, what, $7 grand?

Josh: I was gonna say $3,500.

Tommy: They went low. $12,000. Fuck, they're back up. He's got $12,000 change.

Josh: I was thinking of, uh, there's no currency that would have been $3,500. Anyway, um, you already been thinking about what's going on?

Michael: Oh, so, well, when I— so starting podcast.

Tommy: Fuck yeah, I'm pumped.

Michael: So I've obviously been thinking about it for a while. You've had a couple of cracks at me, when am I going to start it, when I've been on. So I've just been noting things down, trying to get my position on what it is that I want to do. So I said to you at some stage, I want to sit down with you guys and just do a bit of brainstorming, get a bit of feedback. Feedback's, you know, good thing for moving through developing something. And then we're here.

Tommy: All right, welcome. Yeah, time for feedback. All right, so first of all, I'm joking, I'm joking. I've heard your podcast, the first episode. Have you not released it?

Michael: No, no, I'm not going to do that yet. I'm just going to bank a few, work out if it's something I want to keep doing before.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, this is— how were you with feedback when— so Mikey was an industrial designer. You were at uni.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You designed a bit like 3D Dill, to be honest. You did the same course, industrial design. You didn't do a thesis. No, you were a dropout.

Michael: I actually was. And then I went back This is a very— there's a bit of a side thing, but then I went back and so I dropped out after 2 and a half years and then I was working. And so I went back and I was like, okay, I've just got to convince lecturers to give me some credits for some subjects. This is probably one of the best things I've ever done.

Tommy: I went back, fuck, he's always got to work out.

Michael: Went back, got— spoke to a couple of lecturers. I ended up getting given 3 subjects out of 4. And then they're like, you just got to do one and we'll give you a degree.

Tommy: What did you do?

Josh: So how many years had you done? Two?

Michael: I'd done two and a half.

Tommy: But then he went into a job that was specific to industry. So it's just—

Josh: what is it called?

Michael: Um, industry something.

Tommy: Yeah, industry credit. Yeah, like Barefoot Investor's done his counsel, uh, financial counselling course to help people, you know, counsel people, but he got a whole bunch of it because he's had so much experience in the field and then he just you got to get the back-end credits. And so you, you had one subject or something?

Josh: No, what'd you do?

Tommy: Four subjects.

Josh: But then you only had to do—

Michael: they gave you credit for three.

Josh: Which one did you do?

Michael: Oh, fuck, I can't remember. I was pretty disengaged at that point.

Josh: I made— Matthew Vella had to do like, uh, he fucked all of his credits with his college stuff, ended up doing like a fitness, like, uh, just lift, like weightlifting module or something to get the points, which was outrageous because he's like a filmmaker.

Michael: It was like, actually, because I was still working, I actually paid some people to do some of the stuff for me.

Tommy: I mean, do you think Fiverr— like, sorry, not Fiverr, like Upwork and shit?

Josh: Well, Fiverr is not good enough for you.

Tommy: Definitely too low price point. Shitty, shitty, uh, shitty people, shitty designers. Like, if like paying people online, like you—

Josh: I think it's got a bad rap, Fiverr, based on the name.

Tommy: I mean, if you go to tomyjacket.com, the logo is from Fiverr.

Michael: It's pretty basic, but it's not like— because it started out as being the concept being give us a fiver. Yeah.

Josh: 'Give us a fiver.' And then they started off saying, 'Okay, yeah, $5 for this.' And then it's like, 'Oh, you want it quickly? That's an extra $50.' Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: You got all those good letters, it's an extra $20. Um, did you tell Jules Lund about Fiverr, or did Jules Lund tell you about Fiverr?

Josh: I told him about it.

Michael: Julesy was a big fan of Fiverr.

Tommy: Yeah, from this guy.

Josh: Yeah, I tweeted— no, I tweeted him. This is before I started at Fifi and Jules, and I think I'd just gone for like just put in, I didn't put— no, I must have. Yeah. Before the interview, I knew I was going to have an interview with him and I just said, tweeted and said, hey, I think you'll love this. And then he'd already organised like a Simpsons caricature or something of himself.

Michael: Yeah, I remember doing that. He just started like doing random stuff. Like, what else can I do? What else on Fiverr? Just, just give him a fiver.

Tommy: Yeah. Had some disposable income with his radio gig.

Michael: Could have probably afforded more than a fiver.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so, so feedback.

Tommy: So at uni, were you good with feedback or— I mean, yeah.

Josh: Do you even get feedback at uni?

Michael: No, no. I mean, you do. Yeah, you do and you don't. I mean, feedback is an interesting thing because people— I was actually, funnily enough, reading an article just the other day about in the design business, feedback is often lacking. But it's one of the most important parts of the design process. But, but yeah, like at uni you often just kind of, here's your grade, you know, limited feedback. You could have done better. You know, that's generally my feedback.

Tommy: Is your top salmon or what color?

Michael: I don't know.

Tommy: What do you reckon? I was just thinking salmon. Salmon to peach.

Josh: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah.

Tommy: Good. Clear it up.

Michael: Go on. So Yeah, so anyway, what was your question?

Tommy: The salmon one.

Josh: Baby's tired. Um, so, so when it gets to the workplace, do you think not receiving feedback that much within a uni context, does that make us not very good feedback takers but also givers?

Michael: Feedback's hard to give. Um, so yeah, so I just, I just don't think it's, it's part of culturally part of what we do, you know.

Tommy: What do you think it— why do you think it's hard?

Michael: Well, because, because it's hard to be critical of someone. Often being critical of someone goes down a path of like it becoming personal, but that's what it shouldn't be. That it should just be a, um, a criticism or an analysis of the work, you know, irrespective of who's done it.

Josh: And so then something like design or anything creative is subjective Design's always hard.

Michael: Like, designers are traditionally very touchy because it's so— like, you put everything, you put yourself into it. Anything creative, like, you guys would know, like, anything creative, you put a lot of yourself into it. And so when someone, when someone gives you feedback or criticises it, it can, it can be a bit hard to take. Like, I've spent years managing designers, um, in terms of like knowing how to give feedback and how not to give feedback.

Josh: And so what— how do you give feedback then?

Michael: Uh, it, um, having an understanding of their, of their process of how they've gotten to that outcome is really important. Um, and people who haven't gone— who haven't— don't have an— don't have an appreciation for design and the process that you go through to research and conceptualise and then ideate and then refine those ideas and then land on 1, 2, or 3 ideas and then work those ideas. And so when someone comes in and goes, you know, like, have you thought about doing it this way? You're like, you have just undone so much like process. Like I've—

Josh: So is it a decision map type of thing or like a user story? Like how do you actually get to and can you deconstruct someone's process? Like from a design perspective, say if you're like building the helmet, for instance, as an example, you've got, okay, it needs to be able, it needs to be functional in regards that needs to protect for like impact.

Tommy: I know they just went for looks.

Josh: Exactly.

Michael: Who gives a shit about safety?

Tommy: Yeah, when it's going to look good.

Josh: So you have the impact thing and then you have the, it could be performance. So like wind going in. What's that called? Aerodynamics. Aerodynamics. Is that like how you're doing it?

Michael: So I mean, that's going back a number of years, but the helmet design stuff, that, that's a real— that's, that's a— like, Johnny, who is the first person that I had on the— that I did the potty with here, he— through working for him, I, I built up a good sort of— because he, he's always— he's very creative. He's always got an opinion. He's He's, um, very intuitive. So he would often, you know, I'd be sitting there literally carving this helmet out of clay, and he— and, and I'd spend a day on this fucking tiny little detail, and he'd sort of come in and just naturally love what was going on and just want to get involved. He's like the most enthusiastic person you'll meet. And so he would sit down, then he'd start having a little fucking play around with it, and you'd be sitting there going Oh, okay, this is fine.

Josh: And you can't undo clay.

Tommy: No, it's not duplicating a sequence in Premiere Pro.

Josh: Why clay? It fucking sounds like the mediaeval times. Why, um, why not CAD? Or is— do people still use clay?

Michael: So at that time, clay— like, I, I, I took— I'd never done it before, and then I took the approach of how do they do— how do they design cars, which is a very complex surface, complex surface object, which means there's a lot of angles going on. There's a lot of, you know, you've got to join this panel and this panel, you know. So I was like, that's where I'm starting. I want to start with model making, clay, that sort of thing.

Josh: Did you do the helmet to scale?

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: So I, so I don't do cars to scale though, obviously. Yeah, they do clay cars. Yeah.

Tommy: Really?

Michael: Yeah, of course they do.

Tommy: How heavy is that?

Josh: Of course they do. Oh, I'm sorry. Geez, I'm fucking stupid sometimes.

Michael: Can we just repeat?

Josh: A whole car made out of clay? Yeah, that's cool. Hollow, obviously.

Tommy: Just, I mean, yeah, cool fact. Cool fact. Can we just drop in one cool fact that we heard this week about the machines that bore tunnels for train systems or new underground tunnels for cars? They can't get the fucker out. They spend millions of dollars on the piece of machinery. They send it down and press it and it goes.

Michael: Doesn't come out.

Tommy: Doesn't come out. So they, they dump the really expensive piece of machinery. They bore it to somewhere. They bore it down somewhere.

Michael: Oh, because they can't then get it back up.

Josh: No, they can't get it.

Tommy: There's no reverse. So they spend millions of dollars boring a tunnel.

Michael: But hang on, isn't it the idea of a tunnel that goes in and then out?

Tommy: I don't know, I didn't ask that much.

Josh: Yeah, we didn't ask that much. I was more concerned about the driver.

Michael: I've never driven into a tunnel and gotten to the end and gone, fucking hell, how do I get out of this big boring machine here?

Josh: Maybe they lose.

Tommy: Let's look into this. We could have just— we were both joshing out, wow, wow. Oh my God, imagine the driver. Is there a driver in it? Yeah, that's how you get it.

Josh: Jason, if you're listening to this and can confirm what the— yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Can you find— I mean, It's one of those things you hear about someone at Chadstone that saw somebody.

Josh: Oh yeah, the wallet thing.

Tommy: Um, it's an inside thing.

Josh: And so the clay and the helmet, so you make— so, so yeah, so where'd you even buy the clay from? You just went to a crafts place?

Michael: Online, I think. Yeah, mate, we're coming back a number of years, but yeah, online I bought it. I did a lot of research around the best thing you got, and then I got like— I had a, um, like a head form, so it replicates a standard or a medium-sized head. And I had that cut out of, like, CNC cut out of a material that was— it's almost like a plastic material. And then I laid the clay up on top of that, and it would allow me to get the thicknesses right. And I could drop, you know, a ruler into it, or I'd drop it, um, whatever, get all the thicknesses right, play around with the, with the detail. Anyway, you then take that clay form and you go and you 3D scan it. So then that gives you your digital file. And then I took that digital file, which was just, um, or you can just imagine a file that's like as messy as a clay model. And then you take— and then I took that and sat down with like an automotive designer, and he used AutoCAD or Alias to stitch and design all the surfaces. So that converted the file from something that was like really messy to something that was really clean, and you can create a tool out of it.

Josh: And so how, how close was the thing that you did with the clay into the final product?

Michael: Um, oh, I mean, it really close. Like, it was exactly what, what I had in clay was what I, what I ended up on someone's head in the Tour de France. It did make the Tour de France.

Tommy: Yeah, that's a fun fact. Yeah, you know when you find facts out about your brother and you brag about them?

Josh: It's a good one.

Tommy: I hope he does this.

Michael: He's a little bit of a punk.

Josh: He's had one, one one can of Stumping Ground, he's tipsy, he's getting both, getting around there. Yeah, no, you—

George: the boring machines, if the tunnel's big enough, they send one in from each end, and so then they meet in the middle and then they dig off to the side and then ditch them there. But if the tunnel's small enough, then it'll just go right through.

Tommy: Yeah, and it makes sense, logic, if you're going through a mountain and you can get out the other side. Yeah, look, we could get out, let's ditch them.

Josh: So why are they doing it on either?

Michael: Well, because for efficiency, right? If you're having 2. Yeah.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

George: Then it makes sense.

Tommy: It takes 6 months to dig halfway, you do 6 months both sides and you've got a tunnel in 6 months.

George: Yeah, because they only go like less than a metre per hour. They're slower than a snail.

Josh: Slower than a snail, that's a good fact.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, but faster than Mason. Um, so feedback-wise, uh, how do you— oh, so I was thinking about feedback. Um, early days is it worth approaching feedback and having the understanding that it's painful and that's what you have to actually put up with? So it's like, it's, it's— you haven't done the work yet to work out what feedback and the feeling you get from having feedback is actually sensical or you shouldn't listen to. So Jules Lund used to give me a lot of feedback on my videos I felt yuck about it, but I acknowledged— I don't know, like, in the time I was just like, oh, this feels great, but this feels horrible, but Jules is so great. And then, um, and then I started at the other side when my videos got better. I was like, fuck this guy.

Josh: But do you think it's respect? Because if you have respect for whoever's getting feedback—

Tommy: but he actually gave me great feedback, and I was like, holy shit. When you see someone's feedback implemented, even when it feels yuck but it makes it a better video. So it cuts out a minute of a video, 2-minute video, and you're like, I've got the same video and I didn't want to do the things he was telling me, but I did them. And now they— and so then you're like, you're downloading his system in some ways to go, I see what he's meaning by that.

Michael: That's why it's good feedback. There's people who can give feedback and then people who just shouldn't.

Tommy: There's trusted feedback and then there's fuckwits on YouTube.

Josh: Yeah, but it's also, I think, like context. Like, do they understand who the audience is? And like, I think that you can work out, uh, whether feedback is good or bad based on how much context the people have or what they're bringing to it, right? So it's like, okay, say for instance, uh, cut it— cutting it down, like using that example, cutting a minute off, that is using a specific school around we need to get to things quicker. It needs to— like, it's a web video, it's that sort of style. But there's also different styles require different tool, tool sets. And so sometimes you see people's blind spots where if they've been using a hammer their whole life and then you're creating something that needs a drill, they will probably suggest a hammer. And at that point, you need to consider that.

Tommy: The old hammer and drill. Yeah, it gets you good. But that's why you kind of have your, your safe people around you that you are seeking feedback from, hopefully external feedback outside of the safe people, and just why are they giving you feedback in the first place. Yeah, unsolicited feedback through YouTube, geez.

Josh: Yeah, comments.

Tommy: Like the stuff that we've had, some of the stuff that we've had.

George: Yeah.

Tommy: I said, did you have no idea about what we think about— and it's like, it's, it's, it's so far from context that it's just that at that point, just a dot, like, just random feedback, just like throwing anything. Yeah, because they feel like they need to. It's easier to give feedback than it is to do the work.

Josh: Well, I think also it's, it's, it's easy to say something than not to say something as well.

Tommy: And so for me, I reckon feeding their issue or their if they're thinking at that point.

Josh: But also, like, you're doing, like, relationship management. Like, if your mate's doing something and you know that something might not be right, I used to be like, oh no, you're fucking— like, you don't do it that way, I've done it. But then I'm like, it's that whole thing of you shouldn't, like, steal other people's problems from them. Like, they need to have that experience and go through that, otherwise they won't completely be able to connect the dots.

Tommy: Can you also, um, when you're not doing the work and then you sort of invested in the project, there's, there's a chance it's like, it's, it's whatever. If you think it's not as great as you like, whatever you put out, it could be shit and you think it's good. Or like, I think there's just anything you do, it's like take 20% off it and it's still probably of an okay standard. So then like your internal standard about the thing you're doing is actually way out of whack. Like, because there is people that will love it and the opposite. And so if you, if you end up in the middle, it's like, it's—

Josh: yeah, I think, I mean, that's why Seth Godin is just like, ship. And so why aren't you shipping?

Tommy: Yeah, so what's—

Michael: what's up? So to tie back to like the, the podcasting, so it's not so much feedback. What I was actually wanting to do with you guys was sort of sit down and workshop where this is coming from, because I suppose the biggest challenge for me is if I go into this, I don't have a good foundation of what am I, what am I doing by, by hosting this environment.

Tommy: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Um, uh, there is a chance that it will kind of just fizz out and you won't really have an outcome because mine is quite tied to— so it's called None of My Business. So it's, it's a play on, you know, it's a business podcast about people. And I suppose what I've been working on just internally over the last couple of months is what is it that I'm actually doing here? Like, what am I actually— what do I want out of people? Because, you know, I've asked a few people, you know, which I'm going to do one next week or the week after.

Tommy: What he's asking is get studio time.

Josh: Well, you've got the common setup.

Michael: I don't need you.

Tommy: I mean, we're pretty fucking— we're pretty happy at the moment.

Michael: So we've got a nice light. But, um, no, so, so I—

Josh: so people, you ask a guest to come on and they ask you another question and then you're like, oh, fuck. Does it get you thinking about— yeah, from that perspective?

Michael: Yeah, I, yeah, I suppose it's like I, I need to make sure if I, if I know that I'm going to host a space and host a conversation, I need to make sure that it's, um, it's authentic and it's something that I find interesting, you know, like, and um, you know, that I've got it. Like, if, if the basis is like I'm interested in business in general, um, what is it? How far off do you— off that path do you go? Because you don't want to kind of just go in with a couple of questions, with a couple of, you know, strategies or questions, and then go, all right, well, there's nothing else to really talk about.

Tommy: Um, well, I think there is, because I mean, for now, business is so intertwined with life. What's your— what are you doing outside of business that is making you a higher performer in the business?

Josh: But that's its own style. So I guess like part of it's like, it's the who's it for, what's it for thing. And so obviously you're, you're looking at it from an interviewer perspective, which makes sense, which is like from a base level you need to be interested in it. And then the secondary thing is like, okay, for the audience who is actually going to listen? Do you have a sense?

Michael: Or what the audience are going to get out of it? Like, so for me personally, it's, it's a no-brainer. Like, I want to, um, expand my, my network. I want to— I, I enjoy conversations with people about what they're doing and how they do it.

Tommy: You're good at it.

Michael: I like talking about the connected, you know, all the things that are, that are relatable to what I do and what they do and things that aren't. Um, uh, on a, on a sort of more foundational level, I'm, I'm sort of looking, looking, sitting here and going, what's the next thing in my career or my life or whatever that I want to, you know, maybe, maybe it's time for a pivot. Um, I don't know. So, so, um, podcasting is, is a platform which, you know, is obviously very achievable these days. And is that the right— is, you know, is it the right platform or is it— I don't know.

Josh: Yeah, I think that's like the tricky thing, especially niching. So like, I think what we've created with the Daily Talk Show, we've allowed— we've created a platform where it's us as a brand talking about what we want to talk about, having the people we want to have on, and then almost sort of moulding it in over time based on who we're picking and what we're talking about.

Tommy: I also think that we can over-intellectualize the foundation or the structure of a creative project. So another, like, None of My Business could be, you know, 5 personal questions, maybe relating to— like, you can just look at the structure of how you lay out an episode. You can have somebody on, an old friend, Andrew Melody, you grew up with, who's an old best— you know, he's your best mate, he's a business person, he's in you know, non-for-profit sector. Like, there's so many varying things that you can have conversations about.

Michael: Yeah.

Tommy: And so that's where I think you can—

Josh: well, that serves Mikey, I guess, which makes sense. But I think the question that you're trying to work out maybe is it's like, what is the promise that you're making to the audience?

Tommy: But does it have to be found in the first episode, the second episode?

Michael: Sure.

Tommy: Like, it can it not be— this is an evolution 50 episodes in. That's— I'm actually I'm giving it 50 episodes and I'm gonna test and learn, carve away the, you know, the helmet. Like, you're learning as you're going, and so you take that creative process. And so your chips aren't all in on the first round because then it's like a higher chance of it not stacking up how you thought it was based on having all those chips on it being a certain way.

Michael: I feel like being able to define it in some sense of what, what, where it sits for me, but also where it sits for potentially the listener, also helps the guest. Yeah, because, you know, like I've asked 3 people and only 1 has responded, you know, and, you know, like that's not a big deal. But that was an interesting exercise to go through, to go, there is a level of resistance there because one, you don't have a track record. They can't look at what you're about and what you're going to want. Like, and people, you know, like they're naturally like, oh fuck, what am I? What do you want? What do you want to know from me? What are you doing? What are you?

Josh: And so I think like if we look at us as an example, I think that we've created this promise around we're showing up every day, which I think is part of it. But I don't— I think that we've used everything else around the format as our promise rather than the content. But if we think about anything that we listen, that we watch, that we enjoy, they all have those promises. It's not like if you're watching an episode of your favourite TV show, it doesn't like one day be a comedy or, and the next be a drama. It's sort of like it has these commonalities so that people know what they're getting every time.

Tommy: So understand the through line or the tagline.

Josh: Yeah, I think it's the— it definitely is the through line, but I think thinking about it from a promise perspective, when someone listens, so there can be a bunch of things that can change. So for instance, you look at like Casey Neistat, you know, like the YouTuber. Think about like what his promise was. So his promise was a daily vlog in New York City, and then his audience definitely changed when he started to change those promises and say, okay, I'm going to do this type of video now, or, or that one. And so I think early on, I don't think we did it in a massive way, but I think that for the most part, that's what people need is that specific thing where it's like for just a specific format that can be repeatable over a bunch of—

Michael: and I know what, you know, like what you're saying, TJ, is you find that, like, you find your format.

Tommy: Yeah, because you're saying, who is that for though? For the audience or for yourself, Josh?

Josh: Uh, so I think that it's, it's about the, uh, audience But I also think that it's a part of reconciling as well, right? So I think that even though we didn't come to the show with some things sorted, I think that we had like a very sort of clear vision on these other elements. And so I think that potentially for us it was very much around audience first, around like how we're building that community and audience and like because we didn't even have guests for the first 50, it wasn't even like a consideration around that networking stuff. And so I think that as podcasting is getting, uh, bigger and more people are doing it, it's definitely seen as an opportunity of like, as you said, growing the network, self-development, all of these things. And by being able to then dial it in from that audience promise perspective I think it then will— I think like looking at it as a season probably makes sense, even though we didn't do seasons. I think saying, okay, I'm going to do a 12-episode season and I'm— and the promise stays the same for those 12 episodes. Yeah, you go very specific and clear in that. And that's where the iteration comes in, because after season 2, you might say, I'm moving a little bit over this way or that way.

Michael: And I landed on that recently. I'm like, season 1, to call it that, is experimentation and allowing and sort of leaning into that, you know, and sort of saying this is an experiment.

Josh: Yeah.

Michael: And there is no, there is no outcome other than where it ends up, you know, after X amount of episodes or X amount of interviews or whatever it might be.

Josh: Could it also dictate the content in a way? Like, I wonder if, say, if you were playing in that experimentation, if you were to be meta about it, actually saying like, what's one thing that you're at the— your first version of right now? Like from a business perspective?

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Like if you play into that, like the iteration of things, then it becomes, then it becomes very clear as well because then it's like, oh, not only am I experimenting, I'm making it part of the format. And so every time you experiment, every time you do make a little adjustment, you're actually making a better show.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so the, um, when it comes to communicating the, like, doing the, the sentence or two, what's the sentence at the moment? How do you describe it?

Michael: Yeah, well, that's, well, that's kind of where I'm sitting. I, I've got a whole lot of stuff that I just keep kind of dumping out of my head, um, but I haven't really landed on it. And I suppose, you know, and to do that properly, we probably need to have a whole lot of stuff that I've written down in front of us, but I think your network's strong enough to get people in without having to have that sorted.

Tommy: But the, the thing is the experiment thing, like, I love that idea of the experiment is part of the theme of the show for the season.

Michael: Yeah. And so I landed on that because I kept putting, I kept having these little barriers like, what's the intro to the show? You know, because you listen to a lot of podcasting like, this is none of my business. It's a podcast about Baba, and I just— and I couldn't get— I was like, I just— what is it?

Josh: Yeah.

Michael: And so I was like, I'm just gonna eliminate that, the need for that intro, and just start talking to people.

Josh: Definitely.

Michael: And then I'll work out the intro later once, and I'll come back and edit that in. Yeah, definitely, when I need to. And so that's where the experiment thing came to— I was like, what am I actually doing here? I'm like, well, I'm just genuinely experimenting with something for me that could be something for other people. Which could be something for the people that I get to sit around a table and chat to. Um, and so then I was like, well, that's got to drive— like, if that's the genuine authentic experience that I'm having, that's what's got to drive and lead the, the questions and lead the people that I ask to come on. And, um, yeah, so yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

Josh: I think like the— I find point of difference like an interesting thing, like especially in this sort of market that's open and anyone can do it, uh, it seems like that's going to become more and more of a thing before you start.

Tommy: Yeah, like I have to have a point of difference.

Josh: Yeah. And this is, I guess, the hard thing because it goes against some of the stuff that what we're talking about. And it's also like you just need— there is that thing of needing to ship.

Tommy: But I guess every year there's X amount new podcasts, which means there's x amount of people being asked to be on podcasts. So people then become more skeptical. Like, that's why early days, blown away by the people who said yes at the time that we were at the part of our journey where we were at. And I can't hold it as they just liked us, that's why they did it. It's like there's also the reality of they have probably haven't been asked a lot. We've been, we've had a bunch of first, first timers on this show.

George: Yeah.

Josh: Maybe it's something around actually even saying, like, I think part of it, there's a risk in saying the experimentation thing, not committing to anything from a communication perspective. And maybe that's the bit that I'm thinking about, which is like, how do you just commit and say, I am like, this is a show that's doing this. And then keep in mind that not that many people are going to listen to the first episode. And if the second episode, that then changes to something a little bit different. I think that, um, like, ultimately I know it doesn't actually—

Michael: like, no one's gonna listen. Like, that's the point, and I know that for a significant amount of time. I think what I'm struggling with is if I don't— if it's not solid in my mind of where I'm coming from, there is just a chance, like I said before, that it just will fizzle out, and I'll just kind of get to this point where I'm like, what am I actually doing? What am I doing here? Like, So I think it's trying to—

Josh: mid-convo. Yeah, you just press and turn the record button off. Yeah, yeah, I think we're done.

Michael: I just put my headphones on.

Josh: They copy you, just like— yeah. So what do you like? Yeah, it's interesting, like, how do you— because I understand that with different parts of my life, this one's— I've been lucky with the podcast that I've been able to work through that barrier, but for the 99% of other things—

Michael: so an example of that is like, I know I work at my best when I'm genuinely excited excited about something. And then if I'm excited about something, it like everything else, like doesn't matter about everything else because I just, I'm just curious and I want to just like keep asking questions. I want to know more and I want to get more knowledge. So if I come at it from that point, it's all good. Like, there'll be, there'll be things though, I'll just keep talking or I'll just whatever it is. Um, I think I just need to, in my mind, and again, like I flip between going this doesn't matter and it does matter, but is just going, where am I coming from and what is it that I'm— what is it, what is it that I want out of this experience or this experiment? But look, I'm getting closer to that.

Tommy: I think it's, um, if you could just— what would it look like if you just took action on a season? Yeah, minimum viable, and you reassess so that you see—

Josh: well, you've already done it. How many episodes have you got? You got one, but you're doing two in the next.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. No, I'm just going to keep going.

Tommy: Like, it was a good one. Like, you should put it out because it was good.

Josh: Yeah, but yeah, yeah. So what's the— so the risk in putting it out now is that there is no risk.

Michael: The risk in putting it out now is there'll just be a long time between then, that one and the next one. And but potentially, but potentially not. But yeah, there's no reason why I'm not putting it out. I listened back to most of it and I was like, yeah, that was that was fine. I think what it actually identified is that I can go down a number of paths and I just had a few questions that I kind of had on my phone and I asked Johnny about and it was fine, but it probably highlighted what am I actually doing? What is it? Because I've gone, I deviated from, I came up with the concept of none of my business. I enjoy conversation about business and with people that what they're doing and all that sort of stuff. Then I sort of deviated and I said, well, it can be more than that, like you were saying before. Like, it can be business and life are very integrated, so it can go on a whole different tangent. But then that kind of created too much, it became too vague. And so then I came back and I said, all right, no, it does need to be— the foundation does need to be about, um, work and, and work life and business. And, you know, just— and that'll probably underpin most of the guests that I ask on.

Tommy: And then finish with the Fast Five. On their personal life. None of my business. What's your best investment personally? Or start with half a pay, you know. I think, yeah, I mean, I think you know the answers though. Like, I think—

Josh: and so the why thing is hard though. I think that it is difficult, especially in 2020 when there is— you can see so many people doing different things, and then you just sort of assume a narrative based on what everyone else is doing, which I think is, is hard.

Tommy: The why of why we're doing it or what.

Josh: Yeah, it's like, okay, so like if you take the networking thing, like there's a heap of ways that you can network. Yeah, you go to a meetup once a week or like there's— and so I think that that's the, the challenge as well for most people is it's like, okay, I could actually do this a million ways. And every single way would work. And it is very hard to be looking at something day one and saying, I want to try and get the first thing to be right. And I think that maybe part of it is the fear of not continuing to do it is almost like a barrier because it's that fear of failure, really, because it's— and so if we can bypass that, if we can work out— I'd look, the reverse psychology of like, oh, maybe it won't— like, yeah, maybe this isn't forever, maybe this is only for 4 episodes, but I need to actually like do it.

Michael: Yeah, I need to try it.

Tommy: Yeah, well, the 10-year thing for us has only really cemented itself a year and a bit in because you then work out, fuck, we can do that.

Josh: And the first 100 episodes, your first 100 episodes were like, I might get to 100 and be done. And so there was a little bit like, definitely that happens over time and you build momentum, but then you don't know what could come out. Like if you've got the podcast as the start, then it could— you could say, okay, I'm going to transcribe this and turn it into like a blog or do something else. Or, you know what, as a basic thing, it's going to be a LinkedIn post once a week.

Michael: Yeah.

Josh: But yeah, the why stuff is hard. Because, um, it's hard to work out before you've started something.

Michael: Well, as I said, as we've said, you know, I, I know personally that it's— there's a drive that I have for having meaningful conversations with people, and I think the podcast gives you that unique platform to be able to do that.

George: You—

Josh: but are you having it enough outside of podcasting? Like, so maybe there— I wonder if there is something in take the podcast off the table for even a week and say, who am I speaking with now that's doing exactly— who can I speak to now that would be doing exactly what I sort of— the experience I want to be having, but I'm just not recording it. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: So I'm doing that. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. It's interesting.

Tommy: He got you there, Josh.

Josh: No, it's good.

Tommy: I love it.

Josh: I'm trying to spitball because I'm like, oh, like maybe you don't need it. It doesn't need to be a fucking podcast. Yeah, yeah, but I think you're—

Tommy: I think you're further enough along thinking that you want to even do one, so you may as well.

Michael: Yeah, I've got to try it. Like, I think, I think it creates a unique environment. So for whatever reason, the podcasting environment makes people kind of, you know, be a bit more honest or maybe talk about things that they wouldn't necessarily talk about. And not that you're trying to probe, but it does set up an interesting environment once you get someone in the door and you get them to sort of make that commitment. People that have got a lot of experience talking on, you know, the top, like, because you guys have a lot of people on that have got something to sell or something to talk about. Yeah. So they're generally used to it. So I'm kind of interested to talk to people that don't necessarily have that, like, that aren't necessarily— they don't think they're selling anything, but they actually have really good insightful things that they do, um, that everyone does, but it's not necessarily celebrated like someone who's just written a book.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Tommy: I love it. Okay, when can I listen? Yeah, I mean, the hard— the hard—

Josh: yeah, what do you think, 97? Like, I feel like you've got— you've had so much growth in the past.

Tommy: Well, he sits in the corner listening to every episode. You're in a house looking awesome.

Josh: Uh, yeah, what are you like, what are you observing, what do you think?

George: Yeah, I mean, I, I think the, the whole thing around reframing it to be an experiment and the whole sort of first season being an experiment and seeing what happens is probably what I resonate the most with. That's what I mean, I would probably do.

Tommy: But yeah, I mean, you struggle to commit though, so yeah, I, I feel like, mate, yeah.

George: Just, just jumping in and seeing what it's like and if you enjoy it and potentially finding that reason or that structure or what you want it to be as you go. I don't know, I don't know if what, what other way you can't hypothesize.

Josh: Like, it seems like dumb, like, even thinking about it until you're fucking doing it, right? It's like, it's like you've got a mate who's saying, I'm thinking about the gym, like, maybe I should, I don't know. But it's like, if you, if you just like commit to to 12 days of the—

George: no, we've got a mate.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, we've all got one. But if you actually just like— yeah, the easiest way to know is to actually go. That's going to be the whole fucking experience.

Michael: You know, something that's come up, I've put— because I've told a few people about that I'm doing just because I want to kind of put myself in that experience of having to say what it is. And so two things, when you're telling someone that you're doing, they go, oh, what is it about? And that's probably what I'm struggling with. So it's that concise Um, mate, I feel you.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you don't talk again— so we didn't talk about ours for the first 20, uh, 20 apps.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so I think there's so much power in that, which is like, okay, I'm just gonna fucking like— I'm not asking anyone.

Tommy: Like, you actually—

Michael: you also didn't have to ask anyone.

George: Yeah.

Michael: So then the other—

Josh: you don't need feedback.

Michael: The other thing, the other thing is that you ask someone to come on and the first thing they say is, what, what do I— what about—

Tommy: that's what I said, your network we've had all your mates on, you just haven't bothered to get them on your fucking podcast.

Josh: But I get that, it's the sell. So the sell is I'm doing an experiment.

Michael: Totally.

Josh: And that's literally all it is. And then they get like, if you bullshit, like, they can only be disappointed and you're not necessarily— you don't know what the fucking answer is.

Tommy: I'm doing an experiment, you're my mate, trust me, we're just gonna have a great conversation.

Michael: Yeah.

Tommy: And if not, uh, we— good to catch up. Yeah.

Josh: But I also think too, to your point around like if you've got a network, thinking about how, where people are judging the decision of the yes or the no. So for instance, if, if you're coming from a perspective of, hey, will you be on the podcast? I'm a podcaster. This is what I'm doing. This is a podcast. Podcast. If you like change that to being like, I'm doing like, this is a personal growth exercise. Would you, would you help with this? I'm experimenting. I'm starting with a podcast and I'm recording these episodes. Then the question isn't fucking, what's your podcast about? It's either like, yeah, we want to help Mikey, and yeah, we'll give it a go, and we can do that, or we won't. Yeah. So I think there's something in that framing too, and I think that everyone does that, which is like, it's the same with, um, when it comes to a fi— uh, from a money perspective, when you're like having someone say, do work for you. They did this whole— Dan Ariely, uh, like a social psychologist talks about how, um, they did a study where they paid people a low amount and then they got people to do it for free. And the people who were doing work for free worked significantly harder than those that were getting a paid amount, a small amount. And the reason was, was because when you're getting paid a small amount, uh, you're thinking, you're referencing what you should be getting paid, and so you're using that method And when you're doing it for free, it's actually a favor. And favors— yeah. And so then when you are doing it as a social good, or if it's like a favor, you're going to put in all the effort. I think so. There's probably something in not trying to fucking pitch it like a podcast and that you're a professional about framing.

Michael: Yeah, all mental stuff. It's about framing, just reframing it until you get to a point where you're comfortable. Yeah, it's like the experimentation thing. Like, that took me a while to get to a point where I'm like, fuck, hang on a second, if I just frame this in my head as an experiment. Who fucking cares? Exactly. Yeah, like putting two coloured dyes in a test tube and seeing what colour it makes.

Tommy: But it's probably drawing the line in the sand of no more thinking. Yeah, like, I think you've done— you've thought a lot, you've tested it, you've come on the show, on this show, and, you know, like, I think it's all worth, worth it on the journey of talking to other people.

Josh: If it brings you closer, like, if that's the little glimp of hope, it's like me with my fucking habits. I've got the Streaks app. It's like I'm not hitting every habit each night, but I'm like, fuck, if I can actually— I go through moments of like, I haven't done them all, like, oh, I can— do I really need to even add this one to it? But I'm like, nah, if the ones that I fucking do, the habits that I'm finishing, I'm like selecting that I've done it, and it just like keeps that— like, seems like it keeps a little bit of heart.

Michael: I'm told Gronkh the other day—

Josh: oh yeah, yeah, he's using Streaks.

Michael: Is he?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's fine. Have you seen the Strix app? This is it. So it's got like all the things that you do in a day.

Michael: I just signed up to Qantas Wellbeing, so I get Qantas points for every step that I take.

Tommy: Get stuff.

Michael: You're kidding me, mate. Get on it, mate.

Tommy: Can't we just get a little thing in the office that's— look, well, we're just shaking it up.

Michael: Can't we gain the fuck out of this thing?

Josh: So what, you've walked your way to a first class ticket to London? What was I saying?

Michael: Um, I fucking lost my train of thought.

Josh: Well, we were talking about— I was talking about the, um, doing stuff.

Michael: Yeah, I know, I know. So I was talking to him about just another framing thing of what— why I'm doing it.

Tommy: But he's getting free coaching, isn't he?

Michael: This is all the front into my corner. Yeah, he's a good man to have in your corner. And I was saying to him how So like, this is even like, you can connect better. Like, one of my, one of my objectives is to be able to connect better with like good mates, like mates that I see all the time.

Josh: Yeah.

Michael: And I was saying, how was it? Like a thing on the weekend. And I came away, I'm like, fuck, that was a lot of just small talk bullshit, you know? And I'm like, I've known these guys in a cubicle.

Tommy: Crazy.

Michael: I've known these guys for 25 years.

Josh: Yeah.

Michael: And yet you still come away from some of those things not all of it, but you come away from some of those things, you know, like, fucking, we really talking about the weather?

Josh: Yeah.

Michael: Like, I know it's a bit freaky at the moment.

Josh: Is it the reframing thing? Like, because I like one thing that I— that's why I love walks. I feel like when you go on a walk with someone, absolutely, you can't do fucking like small talk.

Tommy: Yeah.

Michael: So, so, and that's the point. That was my point. It's, it's also about, um, giving— that's, and that's another thing about a podcast is you create an environment where you're like And maybe, you know, you don't call it a podcast or whatever, but you're creating an environment where you're like, we're not going to talk bullshit. Let's actually dive into something that's a bit meaty. That's a bit interesting.

Josh: Do you think that you're— what are you— you know, Talk Gronkh talks about that quote. I always forget how you implicit in the circumstance or situation. Like how— like, so if you're— are you fucking saying, yeah, the weather is fucking shit, isn't it?

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And then, but then you drop into the mindset, you drop into that Yeah, yeah. And then you're just like, oh fuck, we're all here. So yeah, fucking weather's shit.

Tommy: Um, outside pointing, wow, look at that.

Josh: And so is there something—

Michael: changes coming? Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: How's the kids?

Michael: Good.

Tommy: Yeah, real good.

Josh: Hello, good thanks.

Tommy: Thanks, how are you?

Josh: And so yeah, I mean, there's something in that. But maybe I think the podcast— I think that definitely through this format for us socially I think that we probably enter into things quicker. And I think for some, for some of it, it's because people expect that as well. It's almost like you become like when people are hearing it all the time or you sort of like you just naturally do it more.

Michael: I went on a real rabbit hole from the Bungo Stanier episode.

Tommy: He's great, isn't he?

Michael: He's great.

Tommy: What a weapon.

Michael: So I read his book and then that put me in through his reading his book. He put me onto another one which is called A More Beautiful Question. Have you?

George: No.

Michael: Oh, it's awesome. So I'm reading at the moment. But anyway, it's just about this concept of questioning. And, you know, we lose the— we almost lose the skill of questioning from the time from 4 years old, you know, because 4-year-olds— and you're about to cop it even more than you are now— but they just start like asking about everything. And there's about 20 questions within a space of 30 seconds.

Tommy: And have you been asked what is dark? What is dark? Yeah, what is dark?

Michael: What is the sky? Where are the— where do the stars come from?

Tommy: Solid questions. Like, what is dark? How do you explain that to a kid that doesn't understand?

Josh: Well, Seb's had an answer. What do you think?

Tommy: Protons, photons, fucking—

George: yeah, the lack of— the lack of photons, I think it was.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Explain that to a 3-year-old, mate.

Michael: Yeah, then what are photons?

Josh: Explain it to Tommy.

Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Explain to the 3-year-old's dad, mate.

Josh: But yeah, they go to school and they're asking about it.

Tommy: Yeah, but so you're, you're at the— I remember you telling me this, you're at the height of your question asking at 4, and then as you go old, grow older, age goes up, it deteriorates your question.

Michael: Yeah, because you start going to school, school's all about knowing the answer, so you're— so, and then memorization of answers, so you stop asking questions, you stop becoming inquisitive. So your peak questioning is when you're 4 years old. And then it goes like that.

Tommy: I mean, we've had a— we would have had a massive spike in question asking.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Over the last 2 years.

Josh: And then people are uncomfortable, like, yeah, like, I reckon in the last week we've had 3 people who have said, man, you were just like, you asked a lot of questions after the episode. Yeah, after the episode. Like, it's a bit confronting.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Um, but I think there is a— because the other thing too is I think that we try and because, because it's not socially acceptable, it seems rude to just be asking questions. Most, most people sort of lather it up in all this other shit before they get to it.

Michael: Yeah.

Josh: Whereas I think that maybe sometimes when we're— especially when I'm tired, I'll just like, yeah, I'll just like keep asking, just doing the questions.

Michael: Yeah. Which comes from a place of curiosity, which is a good thing, you know. And, and, and that's where the kind of context of this book is. It's like if we want to be better in business and we want to be better in designing and creating outcomes, and, you know, we've got to be better questioners. Like, and, and the big, the, you know, the Googles and the Microsofts and the, and Amazons, you know, it's part of their culture now to be good questioners, um, and continuing to ask questions at every level.

Josh: And, um, yeah, this is perfect, uh, segue to my, my book club.

Michael: Book.

Josh: It's the Daily Talk Show Book Club, but I'm sort of running the whole thing.

Michael: Um, I tried to, um, I clicked your link, but I— but the annoying thing with Kindle is you can be signed up to amazon.com or amazon.com.au.

Josh: I've got that with Audible, but we've got an update on that too because, um, we're talking— so the book is called You're Not Listening. Is that right, Seb? It's your book, you're the treasurer. Can you have a look at the details?

Tommy: It is.

George: Yeah, no, it's You're Not Listening.

Josh: Okay, so you're just pushing back?

George: Yeah, I was.

Josh: Okay, interesting.

George: Kate Murphy.

Josh: Kate Murphy, you know, the author. He pushed back and then he straight away tells me the author. He knows he fucked up. Um, so, uh, yeah, so we're doing that book, which I think is perfect because it's all about this. It's all about like how we listen and all that sort of stuff. But what I was going to say is, um, George, our editor, uh, his mum runs the main bookshop in Byron Bay, and we're going to do some form of partnership where the Gronks can get a discount at the bookshop.

Tommy: Yeah. Do you have to fly there or?

Josh: No, they deliver as well. Oh, that's nice. And she would also provide us with the book at a discount or potentially.

Tommy: No, we can pay full price.

Josh: Well, she actually said—

Tommy: That sounds good to us.

Josh: She said free. But I think that we could work something out.

Michael: Well, she did give me her business.

Tommy: Ask Harry for the company card back.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: Harry's still got it.

Josh: Um, but no, that'll be fun. But wait, Feb 1st we're starting that. I feel like you should get around.

Michael: I want— I actually intended to, that's why I went to buy it.

Tommy: Great.

Josh: Well, don't buy it.

Michael: Like 6 days. No, no, don't. I've got 4 days.

Josh: Well, we had a— we had 43 click-throughs or something. How many people bought it, Seb?

George: Uh, 3, I think.

Josh: We made $2.87. Oh, so it's just like, I can't be fucked pushing Amazon that hard.

Tommy: It's $2 coffee shop before you put the milk in it.

Josh: Yeah, that's crazy. All right, uh, Mikey, thank you.

Tommy: Yeah, coming on. Yeah, I hope that, um Yeah, I think that any— I think the, these conversations are good even if it's not a podcast you're wanting to start, but it's anything that you're wanting to start. It's a creative project that has all the barriers of it's only you stopping you from doing the thing.

Michael: Well, that's— yeah, so I've been getting up at 5 AM for the last couple of weeks doing my yoga and journaling and reading. That's the format I'm trying to follow.

Josh: And I thought, fuck, we've gone to the podcast, I haven't mentioned that I've been waking up at 5 AM. What's the point if you don't mention it?

Michael: One of the things that have been coming up is just that barrier that we put up in front of ourselves and just— and the whole reframing thing. And just, you know, like, all it takes is just going, what's the excuse that— like, you wake up and you're like, you've got 10 excuses as to why you shouldn't get out of bed before.

Tommy: Have we got Goggins on our podcast?

Josh: But the thing is, the main excuse I reckon is like, oh, you know what, like, it's too comfy. But if I get up at 5, it's not even that. It's like, if I get up at 5, I'm gonna be fucking tired at 2. And at 2 PM I actually need to be at work working, you know.

Michael: I got coffee.

Josh: Yeah, that's right. Are you drinking more? Yeah, I think.

Tommy: Okay. Um, anyway, thanks for coming on, Booker.

Josh: Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Uh, if you do want to join the book club, you just have to go to our Facebook group. Some people who don't have Facebook have been asking me about it.

Tommy: Great.

Josh: Haven't worked. I just— the main thing is you just got to get the book and then get it.

Tommy: Send them the link to Do you know what George's mum's bookstore called, please?

George: Byron Bay's bookstore, The Book Room Collective.

Tommy: The Book Room Collective.

Josh: And so in the show notes, if you go there in person in the next few days and say The Daily Talk Show sent you, they'll probably do something.

Tommy: There's a coffee store at the front. Yeah, you can buy one.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. All right. See you tomorrow, guys.

Michael: See you guys.