We chat about living around the world, cravings for instant news and feedback, positive and negative news cycles, and sex and religion.
Show Notes
Naysan's website: https://bahaiblog.net
Beasts Of No Nations: https://www.netflix.com/title/80044545
Cry Freetown CNN documentary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cry_Freetown
At a glance
From this episode’s transcript.
- –Naysan Naraqi argues that because most of the world's news/web content is produced in and for North America, the UK and Australia, people in the West mistake their own reality for the global norm, overlooking how most of the world actually lives (e.g. in Papua New Guinea or Afghanistan).
- –News outlets' coverage choices are shaped heavily by what generates calls, clicks and engagement; Naysan recalls that a CNN documentary on mass killings in Sierra Leone (Cry Freetown) got far less viewer phone feedback than a lighter story about a dog sitter smacking a dog.
- –Cry Freetown is presented as a rare example where sustained, horrific documentary coverage directly contributed to a UN response and French special forces intervention within two weeks of airing.
- –Development and aid work often favours easily measurable, photogenic projects (murals, statistics) over harder-to-measure but more meaningful long-term community needs, a pattern Naysan says he saw in East Timor and Uganda.
- –As a Baha'i, Naysan frames premarital chastity and the sex impulse as spiritual principles tied to marriage rather than arbitrary cultural rules, while acknowledging the topic (and his own divorce) is more complex than simple cause-and-effect.
Questions this episode answers
What is calamansi and where can you buy it in Australia?
Calamansi is a small citrus fruit, a hybrid between a lime and an orange, sweeter and smaller than a lime with a greenish-orange skin; Naysan Naraqi brought a calamansi sparkling drink from Korea to the show and says it can be found in some (not all) Asian grocery stores.
What did Naysan Naraqi do at CNN and what was Cry Freetown?
In the late 1990s Naysan worked at CNN on shows including Inside Africa and Worldbeat, aimed at showing positive, non-war stories about Africa. Cry Freetown was a CNN documentary made from footage a UNICEF worker secretly filmed while embedding with rebel forces massacring civilians in Freetown, Sierra Leone during its civil war; its airing is credited with prompting a swift UN response.
What does the Baha'i faith teach about sex before marriage?
Naysan Naraqi explains that in the Baha'i faith the sex impulse is acknowledged and encouraged, but only within the context of marriage; he frames this as a spiritual principle about the interconnection of physical and spiritual well-being rather than a simple rule based on guilt or culture.
Episode TranscriptShow
Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 589.
Josh: Back on the show, Dr. Sugar. You know what, my mum loved the episode that you were on last.
Naysan: Oh really?
Josh: Oh, she's like, that man with, um, the accent, he's lovely. So welcome back.
Naysan: Uh, welcome.
Josh: And don't say hi to my mum, Joanne.
Naysan: Hi, hi, Joanne. Thank you, that's polite, uh, and true.
Tommy: To your nickname, Dr. Sugar. You have brought a, um, hang on, are you okay with that nickname?
Naysan: Yeah, it's funny because I got diagnosed with diabetes recently.
Josh: Well, that's the— that's just a coincidence.
Tommy: That's why we call it. So how— because before we get to this, so you brought a drink, but last night, uh, we went to a pub and you actually returned your lemon lime and bitters because you were saying it wasn't sweet enough.
Naysan: Yeah, because they used like soda water instead of lemonade. Oh, that's Sprite.
Tommy: Are you sure that's what happened?
Josh: Positive.
Tommy: Because you were blaming the gun, you were saying, oh, you guys—
Naysan: often what happens in bars and stuff, the gun that has Coke and Pepsi and Sprite and stuff runs out of the syrup, the syrup, and then it basically becomes very watery. So it was like basically lemons and soda water.
Josh: It was a— yeah, it was a skinny bitch without the vodka.
Tommy: But then they said there's— we're not using the guns.
Naysan: Yeah. And, but I'm sure either this— when they scoop the ice, there was so much water in it that that's what happened because it was, it was water.
Josh: So you got a new one. You got a new one. And it was better.
Mason: How much did you drink before you took it back?
Tommy: You finished it.
Josh: I just finished it.
Tommy: You finished it.
Naysan: It wasn't a scam. It wasn't traded.
Tommy: But you had finished, nearly finished it.
Naysan: No, not before I gave it back.
Tommy: It was about that much. Yeah. Anyway, so you brought a drink.
Naysan: Yeah, these are drink.
Tommy: Yeah.
Josh: So bright or like yellowy orange mandarin sort of color.
Naysan: Yeah. These are from Korea actually, but This is on the calamansi. You can see that.
Josh: Yeah, calamansi.
Naysan: This is for you.
Josh: 97. It's calamansi sparkling.
Naysan: So calamansi.
Tommy: I don't know if you guys give it to Seb, so you're not going to have one.
Naysan: You can be positive. Yep.
Tommy: Please.
Naysan: There's only 3 left in the grocery store. You can usually find these in some of the Asian grocery stores. Not all of them.
Josh: Yeah.
Naysan: So calamansi is this little hybrid citrus fruit. It's like a cross between a lime and an orange. Oh, yeah. Smaller than a lime. Have you seen them?
Josh: No, but what's the ones here? Oh, they're small. No, no, no, on trees, little kumquats. Is it kumquats? They're like soury.
Naysan: Yeah, it's not the same. These are quite sweet, small. Um, they're orange on the inside, kind of greeny orange on the outside, depending.
Josh: Okay.
Naysan: And they're delicious. And in Malaysia, you said they have a calamansi drink with salty plums. You know, the Asian salty plums? No, no, something else I really love.
Josh: Um, you grew up in Penang?
Naysan: That's— we didn't really have a lot of sweets and stuff. We had the few little grocery stores were owned by Chinese.
Josh: Yeah.
Naysan: Or Malaysian Chinese. And so there's the thing, the snacks we had were things like dried ginger, salty plums, stuff like that. So I grew up with a lot of that. My mouth is watering right now thinking about it. Yeah. Salty plums.
Josh: You can have a sip of salty plums. Actual salt.
Naysan: Yeah. So yeah, they preserve.
Josh: Salt, sweet.
Naysan: Yeah. I'll bring some next time.
Mason: Yeah.
Naysan: I'm allowed on the show. You get them from Asian grocery store.
Tommy: I mean, we get them from So Asian grocery stores. So the one across the road, that's a Thai supermarket. Probably wouldn't have this.
Naysan: Well, possibly because a lot of the Asian grocery stores carry stuff from different Asian countries, not just like if it's a Thai grocery store.
Josh: I'm going to try.
Tommy: So when was the first time you had this drink?
Naysan: The actual— well, this can specifically, like when I got here yesterday. But the drink itself, I don't know.
Josh: Yeah. I mean, at first it kind of smells a bit like Solo, but then has a different sort of different to the—
Tommy: smells more like lemonade.
Mason: Lemonade, yeah.
Josh: I'm taking it back.
Naysan: It's gonna— it's a different, different hit though.
Tommy: Oh, it's a different hit because it's very sweet.
Naysan: Super sweet, but good, isn't it?
Josh: It tastes real sweet.
Naysan: Sugar that you needed.
Tommy: It's a—
Josh: I needed it. Pick me up.
Tommy: It tastes like—
Josh: and this is 32 grammes of a pick-me-up. Really?
Tommy: It reminds me of a, um, a drink that you'd have like a glucose test. You know what I mean?
Naysan: Wait, do you like citrus drinks?
Tommy: I love this.
Josh: Yeah, I like it because it's, um, slightly sour as well. Yeah, so it really gets your taste buds going. They kind of just all clench up.
Naysan: Yeah, it's got the sweet and sour kind of—
Tommy: You're funny about beverages. When we go to like, uh, Mexican restaurants, you always want to see if they've got the certain drinks. Um, what is it? The horchata.
Naysan: I love it.
Josh: What is that?
Tommy: Like a rice milk?
Naysan: Rice milk. That they make with sugar and cinnamon. It's the rice milk.
Josh: Yeah, sugar and cinnamon, a Mexican drink.
Naysan: Yeah, it's in Spain as well. It's slightly different, but, uh, like in the States, because a lot of the Mexican restaurants have it. Yeah, if they're real Mexican restaurants, they have it, and it's like, it's delicious. Mexican container, it's like a rice milk, like milkshake, but not thick.
Josh: Yeah, I mean, this is like a, um, what's the Indian, the, uh, lassi. Lassi.
Tommy: Yeah, lassi is a lot thicker.
Naysan: Lassi is thicker, yogurt-based, sour.
Tommy: Yeah, I So sick once after having Indian, trying to work out what it was. It's because I had like having a lassi and having like a full meal.
Naysan: It's so heavy.
Tommy: It's actually very—
Josh: I didn't really drink the whole thing. And then the dinner came, she's like, I'm not hungry.
Tommy: Yeah, yeah, why aren't we hungry? It's because we'd had like basically a thick shake. Yeah.
Naysan: Um, when did you move from PNG, uh, to— when did I leave Papua New Guinea? I was 18. I moved to Papua New Guinea when I was a child from the US. And then I was there. I moved there when I was 2 till I was 5. My parents moved back to the States when I was 5 to 9, and then from 9 to 18, we're back, back in Papua New Guinea.
Josh: What's your oldest memory? Because I think, I mean, that's such young years, sort of 2 to 5, 5.
Naysan: Yeah.
Josh: And so because I, I look at my family, um, sort of photo album, and now I'm not sure what is memory, what is visual from the photo. So what do you think for you, because they're more substantial I just grew up in the same house until I was 18, you know, 17. And then when I left.
Naysan: For you, when was your earliest childhood memory anywhere?
Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Naysan: I think like the contrast between being in the US and Papua New Guinea definitely kind of made me remember things because it's quite— there's a lot of culture shock, like especially from when I was 9 and we went back to Papua New Guinea. From that time I was this suburban kid in the suburbs of Chicago playing baseball with my friends and you know, we played with Lego and stuff. And then we go to Papua New Guinea and it was completely the opposite. There was, you know, none of that. And no Lego, no Lego. And it was quite dangerous. And I saw Keith playing, you make up— I mean, later on you could get Lego and stuff, but you know, the good thing is like you're sharpening sticks and making bows and arrows and slingshots and, you know, other types of games. Like you'd get these wires from spokes or just any kind of metal wire you could find. You turn it into a wheel and then you'd get another wire and turn it into a hook. And then you try and push this wire along the ground. And you could do it with a garden hose as well, or any type of hose you'd find. It's— and so I would see it when I—
Tommy: like, what does it do? Like, what?
Naysan: Like nothing. You just try and push this wheel along with this wire. It's really hard. And in Africa and stuff, Lego sounds better. But I saw this game in like, you know, Zambia, Uganda as well. I was like, oh my God, we used to do do that as kids.
Tommy: Yeah.
Josh: What's the game in America? The, um, horse— no, you throw the sort of beanbags.
Naysan: Yeah, onto a square, onto the—
Josh: yeah, it's like onto this thing.
Naysan: Yeah, there's the—
Josh: yeah, the ramp one. What's that called?
Naysan: Um, I don't even know, but I've—
Josh: fuck, it's like, it's like a national sport. Like, like a kid, you see it at fairs. I did a video.
Naysan: It comes from horseshoes or something.
Josh: I did it on, um, I did a video about it once. Fuck, look it up. Game with— game with beanbags. It's got a funny name. That's why I made the video.
Naysan: There's a restaurant in Phoenix, Arizona that I go to a lot called Culinary Dropout, and I really love it. And they have like all these games and stuff, and one of them is that beanbag game.
Josh: Yeah, it's great.
Naysan: Every time I take my niece and nephews, we play it. So I don't know what it's called.
Tommy: You're living in the Gold Coast?
Naysan: Living in the Gold Coast right now. Moved there 2 years ago. Loving it. Absolutely love it. And being in Melbourne right now, seeing the weather— well, it depends. Like Melbourne, I don't want to diss it because it's an amazing city. The food, the culture, everything, and lots of good people here.
Tommy: Yeah, thank you.
Josh: As he rubs my back. Yeah, that was nice.
Tommy: And mine.
Naysan: But the thing is that I know if you're— if you're a weather person, weather really affects me. I lived in the UK for a year. I wanted to— I couldn't. If I could only pry the window of the apartment I lived in— it was painted shut. But if I could only Pry it open, I would have thrown myself out the window. So depressing. But I think like the weather—
Tommy: you're gonna say, like, stuffy in there.
Josh: Yeah, it gets a bit weird.
Naysan: Yeah, you got to be dramatic. But no, I, I don't— the Gold Coast weather is phenomenal, and the beach really has an effect on me.
Josh: It's ridiculous.
Naysan: And when you hear the sound of the ocean and you hear the, like, the wind coming through the apartment— my apartment is on the 35th floor across the street from the beach right now. I live in Surfers Paradise, which is like the most touristy, cheesy part of the Gold Coast.
Tommy: Bargain? Would you describe it as bargain?
Naysan: No, because there's a lot of— probably a lot of Aussies would say that, but there's a lot of tourists there and stuff. And I like the fact— I love being around tourists because they're so excited. So, you know, when I'm walking down the street, you see people and you're always like, hey, yeah, I'll take your picture if you need me to. And, you know, they're like, oh my God, where, where are you visiting from? I'm like, oh, I live here. And they're like, you live here? Oh, it's always a holiday for Yeah, but it's just, it's nice, it's beautiful, it's easy to get around. 15 minutes to get anywhere. When friends are like, hey, let's catch up for a coffee right now, what are you doing? Doesn't matter where you are, it's about 15 minutes.
Josh: So yeah, I mean, it is an appealing life. I spoke to someone who owns a coffee shop yesterday. They said they're selling the coffee shop because they're going up to the sunny coast, which is Sunshine Coast, further up from The Goldie. And it's just another life. It's just a different life. You tell you what, I mean, you're someone who's lived— how many places do you reckon you've lived?
Naysan: Like homes, home of residence? Like 10, 10 countries. 10 countries, some of them a few times.
Josh: There is something for me, I watch, uh, I watch skim, skimboarding, you know, like, um, yeah, on the water, on the water. I watch skimboarding videos of people in Laguna Beach Yeah, California. And I've just, I don't know, there's something in me that's just like, that's a calling. I need like, you guys need to come.
Naysan: I have a boogie board. I'm across the street from the beach.
Tommy: We should have done, we did that, we went, we did a show from Laguna Beach.
Josh: I could love to spend a month there or something. Yeah, like it's just enough.
Tommy: I mean, especially not to Laguna Beach, we'll have to go to the Gold Coast.
Josh: But we'll go to the Gold Coast, that's, I mean, it's close by, a lot cheaper.
Tommy: Yeah, but 15 minutes everywhere.
Josh: They don't let you have fires on the parking. They don't let you have fires on the beach like in Laguna in the States. It's more loose.
Naysan: Yeah, but the beach honestly is so beautiful. Like, the sand is unbelievable.
Josh: Yeah.
Naysan: And I've been to a lot of beautiful beaches around the world.
Josh: I mean, do you swim in it though?
Naysan: Yeah.
Josh: Just every, every morning.
Naysan: I used to go every morning.
Josh: Like, I was just like, instead of taking the photos for the tourists, it's just got out of hand walking to the beach. Like, can I just do it?
Naysan: No, I honestly, my life, you guys, was I would wake up I wake up about 6 every morning before taking a shower. My hair is still crusty, dribble on the side, and I would grab my towel, go down the elevator, go to the beach, even just swim for like 5, 10 minutes and just fight the waves, dry off a little bit. It was usually so early that the sun wasn't out that much.
Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Naysan: But the wind would dry me and then go back and then shower, get ready and work. And because I work from my laptop at home, I decided like, where do I want to be? I want to be in Australia. I want to get citizenship here. I have 2 more years, so I need to be in Australia. And I was like, if I can work anywhere, why not the Gold Coast? It's so beautiful and it makes you slow down. It makes you, you know, like nobody has issues there. People are not like, oh my God, you think people are more attractive there? 100%.
Josh: Well, I tend to agree. No, but I think Bondi, like living in Bondi.
Naysan: Yeah.
Josh: The food culture.
Tommy: You think you get hotter when you're like, yeah, nice. And do you think you are a hotter version of yourself than you were like 2 years ago based on being there?
Naysan: No, not me, unfortunately. I'm like, obviously, like, everybody thinks I'm a tourist. I'm still pasty, overweight. Like, everybody there is like, looks so, you know, like it's hell. Like when you're around like healthy environments, you feel healthier.
Tommy: I feel, I feel hotter.
Naysan: No, just because everybody around me is so good looking and they're not pretentious either. Like there's a couple of people that walked around But everybody's super nice and stuff, but I'm just like, man, I really need to work.
Josh: Can you look up on our site when we did an episode and Josh was on the Gold Coast staying with Nathan?
Tommy: Oh yeah, that would make during the COM Games.
Josh: But I remember you talking about just like you— I remember you talking about like fruit salad. Like you, you start thinking, I want fruit salad because I'm— yeah, like you're looking around, you're like, I don't know, there's something about it.
Naysan: Yeah, you don't want a hot Asian soup on the beach. You want to eat like a nice Acai bowl. Acai bowl. There's a lot of acai bowls.
Tommy: Yeah, they did a big franchising thing, didn't they? Or whatever.
Josh: Well, acai is just the fruit. Yeah, then, you know, there's one of those, and then there's the—
Naysan: if you have the berry in Brazil, it's from Brazil, it really doesn't taste like—
Josh: well, they were— it's like there's some Amazonian fruits and shit that just are useless. It's like there's fish in the ocean that are so ugly they can't sell them.
Naysan: And so yeah, but they're But these fruits are not useless, like, like, well, this—
Josh: nor is the fish that we could eat that we won't, that people won't buy. Yeah, it's like bananas, or bananas that are the wrong shape. Sure, they don't sell them.
Tommy: Fuck off, I'd buy those.
Naysan: Yeah, just— yeah, well, there's a movement, isn't it? Like ugly fruit or something. Yeah, I've seen it.
Mason: It's called Imperfect, Imperfect, or I'm Perfect, depending on the way— no, depending on the way you look at it. I'm Perfect or Imperfect, or Ugly Fruit.
Naysan: Yeah, I think that should be the thing.
Mason: Yeah.
Josh: Uh, episode—
Mason: Fruit episode 63, Josh is up on the Gold Coast.
Naysan: I remember I had to go into my room and keep quiet.
Josh: Can we play a bit of audio from that show? Oh yeah, can you do that?
Naysan: I wasn't included in that show at all. It's like, they said, go to your room and be quiet.
Tommy: The early start, because remember we had technical issues.
Josh: Oh, did we?
Tommy: And so it went from, uh, decent audio to not great audio because, um, we were using Zencastr this service where it would record on both ends, but then at the 30-minute mark it would always change audio devices from my microphone to the internal microphone.
Naysan: So it wasn't me in my room going on with the transistor trying to hack you, turning the Wi-Fi on and off.
Tommy: You're gonna be able to play a bit, Seb?
Mason: Yeah, do you want me to just play the—
Tommy: yeah, go from the start, just play it.
Josh: Yeah, here we go. 63.
Tommy: What, what date has it got a date on there?
Mason: April 12th.
Josh: Okay, uh, 2018.
Mason: 2018, yeah.
Josh: God, this was early days. This could be embarrassing.
Tommy: It's a daily talk show, everyone.
Josh: What up, everybody? You might, you might hear a bit of difference in Josh's audio because he's coming to you live from the Comm Games.
Tommy: Yeah, live from the sunny Sunshine— wait, is it the Sunshine— the Gold Coast?
Josh: The Gold Coast.
Tommy: The Gold Coast is— what's the difference between the Sunshine Coast and the Gold Coast?
Josh: Well, I think there is, um, Sunshine Coast is like down past past the Gold Coast. I actually like the Sunny Coast more so than the Gold Coast. So like up towards Noosa, I think that's the Sunshine Coast, up that way.
Tommy: Um, because I am at the moment— let me just look on a map where I actually am. Uh, so I'm staying— yes, uh, I've just decided to come up and they, uh, they were saying there weren't many people at the Comm Games and you know I hate crowds. So I'm like, if it's quiet, you probably stop it now, reckon. There you go.
Naysan: It's true though, that was a shame because I just moved there and I was so excited about the con and you paid more rent because of the Comic-Con.
Josh: Yeah, did you?
Naysan: Yeah, because I couldn't find anything, so everything was expensive. And this new apartment, it's a different— but yeah, I was in a different apartment and, um, it was so quiet. There were these, um, every night on the beach and so the World Music Festival, amazing world music every night, like different acts. And there was like 10 people there.
Tommy: Yeah. So we sat on the sand, just— what I was saying, I was so relaxed.
Josh: I still stand by the Sunny Coast, but yeah, Sunny Coast is beautiful. I do like Burleigh Heads, which is—
Naysan: Burleigh Heads is cool. It's a lot like Bondi. Burleigh Heads.
Josh: Yeah.
Naysan: So when I tell the locals, like my friends, that I live in Surfers Paradise, they all give me like, yeah, shocked look and horror. But I just— because I work at a lot of crazy hours, It's the only suburb that has stuff open late at night. So if I want to eat at night—
Josh: what time? What's—
Naysan: I mean, this is what I like about going to the morning, 3 in the morning.
Josh: What, what's open at 1 AM?
Naysan: Lots of Asian food.
Tommy: So this is a big thing in Asia. It's like Pakistan when we were there. It's like you would, um, yeah, 2 AM you'd go to a food place and just eat.
Naysan: Yeah. And Asia comes alive at night. It's a big thing. My young— one of my youngest sisters, her and her husband are in Brisbane right now. They just moved there, but their aim is to move to Spain, and they want to go because they love things happening at night. Yeah. And that's Spain, like, you start dinner at 11 PM.
Josh: Yeah, early dinner.
Tommy: Do you think it's good lifestyle? Like, is it, um, eating at 2 AM? Are you making bad food choices?
Naysan: Yes, definitely.
Josh: But hang on, what do you— what's your life look like? Not for you, but like, for someone eating at 11 PM in Spain, are they working? It's getting up at 7 AM to go to work.
Naysan: Yeah, but then they have like this 2 or 3 hour or 4 hours sometimes siesta. Where everything stops. You go home with your family, you eat together as a family, and then you go and take a nap.
Tommy: It's annoying if you're not used to it. Like when we went to Barcelona, it's like either you can only start eating from 8 PM and that's—
Josh: can you pull up an episode from Barcelona?
Tommy: There would be one.
Josh: There would be, from the room. Um, yeah, but so then it's— yeah, that's a weird thing. Have you been to Afghanistan? No. Um, no. What's it—
Tommy: have I?
Naysan: On paper, my sister has— my youngest sister lived there for Live there? Yeah.
Josh: I watched a video yesterday on YouTube of a guy. He's, you know, premises Afghanistan. We hear about what happens over there, how dangerous it is. Is it dangerous? I'm on the ground, I've got a camera and I'm going and I've got a translator and I'm meeting people. And so you're hearing from these people.
Tommy: Is that Saboor? Is that what's— what's—
Josh: no, no, this was a YouTuber, just like a legit YouTuber. He looked like the whitest guy ever. Like crisp haircut, just, you know, just like, just like a whitey being amongst culture.
Tommy: Yeah.
Josh: And just a fish out of water, like, you know, in his Gantt t-shirt around people wearing sort of what they can to survive and hearing about how they're living on— one guy was making 500 something, which was like $6 US, and that's what he lived on a day. And fuck, it just made me like, I felt, you know, then there was a woman in there whose baby was getting sick and just had needed $0.50 to get 5 hours somewhere. It's like a different world. I mean, that's, that's the great thing about traveling. Where have you found that sort of gave you the most perspective about your existence and what it all means?
Naysan: Growing up in Papua New Guinea. Yeah, that was, that was the biggest life experience, you know, like going from these rich suburbs of the US to Papua New Guinea where you see like, it was, it was literally night and day. Like, I think I walked around in just absolute shock at the, you know, especially when I was 9. When I was younger it was different, but when I was 9 it was just shock and witnessing, you know, like, I think the thing is as well, it's like very hard in for people in, in the West, like, because the media promotes, like, the media generally is very Western-centric, and it comes from the West, and that's what you see in the world. And that's, you know, the website— most websites in the world are English language. And then of those websites, you know, like probably over 50% of them, I'm sure, are in North America alone and consumed by North Americans. And then, you know, the UK, Australia, these countries, Canada. And so you kind of think because of what goes out there that this is the world. But then you don't realise that actually most of the world lives like that person in Afghanistan and not like us, where we're like, oh, what do we have for dinner tonight? You know? And I think that's kind of, uh, you know, it's a, it's an interesting thing because we read our reality differently because we think it's a reality when it's not. And that's often because of the role media plays, especially in first world countries or the West.
Tommy: So when you were living in Atlanta, working at CNN, a news organisation that's doing just that, I guess, like giving a perspective. Were you pushing back on that or saying, hey, what about these other stories?
Naysan: Yeah, for sure. I think a lot and a lot of journalists do that. You know, I think there's no doubt, like one of the things I loved about working at CNN, this was a long time ago. I don't know what the nature of CNN is like now, but when I was—
Tommy: it would have been—
Naysan: this was late '90s. Yeah. I think definitely the people I worked with are all passionate about justice and seeking truth and letting people know about things. And I was involved in the very early days. There was a show that we started called Inside Africa, which was just a kind of handful of us on the side working on this show, which was trying to show the other side of Africa, because all that was being shown of Africa was civil war AIDS, famine, you know. And there's this concept of like trying to show like, okay, like what about people just doing ordinary things and, you know, interesting things? And it's— and, you know, and then the other things about Africa that weren't war, famine, AIDS and stuff was also like safaris or, you know, it was like, is there anything else going on? So there was a focus on like musicians and art and culture and, you know, just ordinary people doing extraordinary things. And so, yeah, that— I mean, and there was a lot of examples of that as well. The first show I worked on at CNN was called Worldbeat, which I absolutely loved. It's an international music show, and I wish they had something like that now. And that also put a lot of energy into interviewing other artists. Like, one of the highlights of my time at CNN was interviewing Lucky Dube, famous South African reggae artist who unfortunately was killed in South Africa. But, you know, like a lot of people think of reggae as being like from Jamaica or the Caribbean, but actually like Africa has a huge genre of reggae music. So which I actually grew up on a lot of African reggae in Papua New Guinea, which is really interesting. So I don't know, I do think those organizations, even by default without trying to, are trying to show those things. But at the same time, a lot of that information, news is dictated by consumers, right? So I remember we worked on this show, which is a documentary, and it was horrific. It was called Cry Freetown, and it was about Freetown, which is the capital of Sierra Leone. And it was when the civil war was happening in Sierra Leone, and the rebel forces had basically taken over Freetown. And there was a guy that was working for UNICEF, um, uh, as a cameraman in the AV department. He might not have even been a cameraman, but basically he looked out the window and the rebels were coming down the street. And the rebels were— the campaign they had was called Kill Everything That Moves. And that's exactly what they're doing.
Josh: Quite straightforward.
Naysan: It was the worst. The footage that we had to work with was— it still burned in my brain. Like, I couldn't sleep many of those nights. It was so horrific what they they were doing. And they were literally coming up the street and killing every single thing in their path, and viciously.
Josh: And, um, what's the thing for them? Obviously come up with the slogan, wipe out everyone. What is it to do?
Tommy: Why?
Naysan: They wanted to take over the country and the government, take power, start from scratch.
Josh: Yeah, without people.
Naysan: And, you know, there's a lot of childhood soldiers. Um, actually, one of the— I think one of the best films made by Netflix is called Beasts of No Nation, and it's loosely based on those types of stories. And when I watched it, it was exactly like the documentary stuff we were working on with Sierra Leone. It's an excellent, excellent movie. It's extremely harsh and difficult to watch, but I thought it was so well done and, um, highly recommend it. Beasts of No Nation, but it's very difficult to watch.
Tommy: But yeah, mentioning the child soldier thing, it just reminded me of Kony. Kony. 12. Yeah, what happened to Kony?
Josh: Was he— it was a deal, so he was a front for something. It was like, it's all bullshit.
Naysan: No, no, no, that's a person.
Tommy: So it was like a dictatorship.
Naysan: He was a rebel trying to get power, and he would recruit child soldiers and basically— well, recruit meaning like go make the child execute his parents and then take the child. And once you've been traumatised and broken down like that then you build them up and you become their family. It's a lot of— it's what a lot of gangs do in the world as well, right? Like, you become their family, like people that are searching for that. Except these people were not searching for that. These people were just living their lives in their villages or the towns they were in, and then the rebels would come in, surround the village, rape, kill, and then take the kids, especially the boys that they wanted as soldiers. It's horrific stuff, and it's real. And the thing is, this stuff still happens right now.
Tommy: And so where is it at now? Because I guess this is what happens even with the bushfires. There's a time where it feels like, uh, the media and social media, it's going to be the change and everyone's talking about it. I even remember like the Kony 2012 thing. I remember how big that was on social media.
Josh: It's one of those first social movements at that level.
Tommy: But then where does that— where does it end up? Where does it land?
Naysan: Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't know with the Kony thing right now, but I think that is one of the problems with having kind of this instant culture that we live in. It's like, that was one of the issues I had working with the news in general, is that, you know, people become addicted to the latest news. So even if things are going on still, they don't really want to talk about it because that's not the new thing right now. The flavour of the month right now is this thing happening in Syria. Next month it might be this other thing happening somewhere else. So it was— it's kind of sad. And, and that's— I think that's a combination of you know, news outlets needing funding to do things and, you know, basing themselves on commercial gain, but then also people. So the reason I was talking about Cry Freetown was because one of my friends at CNN— this is before, like, a lot of people would email and, uh, sorry, uh, like, social media— but one of my friends was in charge of, like, all the phones at CNN where people would call in and give, like, feedback. Oh, that, you know, news article you just did about such and such, you know, I've got this person who, you know, or I didn't like that episode, I think that was incorrect, or whatever. And he'd take all this feedback. And I'll never forget when we aired Cry Freetown on CNN, this was like, it was, it was huge because nobody had made a documentary. Journalists that were in Freetown in Sierra Leone were either killed or evacuated. So 2 years later, finally this documentary got made. And you got to watch it because this guy, what he did was he looked out the window, saw them coming and massacring everyone, and knew— just imagine, he was the only one in the building., and he knew they would just find him and kill him. So he grabbed the camera and a bunch of batteries and put on the UNICEF vest and ran out straight to the soldiers, like, cheering and with his hands in the air and hugging them and celebrating and just basically saying, "Yes, you're taking over the capital," and basically won favour with their officer and just said, "You know, this is the revolution. We have to film this. This is the history of this country." And, you know, first they kind of knocked him to the ground, and he's like, "No, no, we got to film this.", and then they just were like, actually, he's right. Okay, film. And then poor guy had to go with them now and start filming as they're going door to door and just massacring people. So it was a thing that, it was the, the thing is, and, and the storey of him is amazing of how he survived this. And then he gets capped, you know, then the, uh, United African soldiers who were fighting the rebels captured him. And of course they think he's one of the rebels. So anyway, long storey short, he manages to escape and he hides all the tapes, buries a hole under a bridge somewhere, and he's being tortured and stuff. Anyway, years later he comes back and gets the tapes, and then they make this documentary. And it was the first time there was footage of this stuff, and it's quite intense. Highly recommend it. But the reason I was saying it was, um, I think these things do make an impact as well, because within 2 weeks of us airing that, The UN quickly met, and next thing you know, French special forces are going in to try and help, and there was more attention. At the same time when we aired it, we aired this thing, oh my God, heartbreaking, everything. Then right after, you know, there's soft news and hard news. Soft news is like, okay, let's end with a feel-good thing or whatever. There was this one bit of news, it wasn't necessarily soft news, but it was about when, it was around the time where people started to get cameras in their homes and stuff. Shelf. And this person had a dog sitter coming over, and they put a camera hidden in the bookshelf. And then they came home and they saw the dog sitter was like smacking the dog on the nose. And so that was the kind of story, right, of like this person found this.
Tommy: Like the nanny cams, right? Yeah, teddy bear, and their eyes were cameras. Great.
Naysan: The thing is though, I don't want to— you know, I'm not— of course, like, animal cruelty is not good.— and, you know, I saw the video, I don't think she was really hurting the dog, that was like slapping it a little bit. But the thing is, you've just seen these people, like kids, being burnt alive and killed, and it was horrific. And then suddenly this little video. And my friend who worked the phones at CNN was like, "It's funny, nobody really called about the Cyril Leon documentary." But the phone went off the chain when people saw the dog thing.
Tommy: Is that like something to do with the koala thing as well? Like, I wonder how many people are connecting more to the, you know, billion animals. Yeah, maybe.
Naysan: And I mean, definitely. I wonder what the psychology of it is. Yeah. And I think like Ricky Gervais talks about this a little bit as well, which, you know, I understand where a lot of people are coming from in this, where it's kind of like, look, human beings are mean and they're, you know, it's so like they've caused their own problems. Animals are innocent. And that's what, like, they're just caught in the middle of our own destruction. So of course we— and I'm not saying we shouldn't be passionate, but I think we need to be. We need to have everything. And I think, you know, psychologically as human beings, we, we create false dichotomies and it's hard for us to kind of do everything. So we just kind of latch on to one thing. And that's why also the news is constantly changing, even though situations in the world are still happening. And I think there's also a sense of like when there's so much going on and so much negativity, you also feel kind of helpless and it's like I'd rather just turn off the TV and go get a bubble tea, you know? Yeah, I know you would.
Josh: You love the bubble tea.
Tommy: Yeah. And even you were talking about a hot bubble tea before. You know, you can get—
Josh: there's a bubble tea shop down here. No way. Yeah, we should go get one. We should do one.
Naysan: Hot bubble tea. That's what I wanted to bring to this, but I didn't want to be late, so I'll be on about 150 grammes of sugar by the end of that bubble tea. Are you counting your sugars? No, I'm not. But you should be. I definitely— I actually do. I cheque my blood every night. Really got it on you? Can you— no, it's a— I'm sorry, we could have done it.
Josh: What have we checked our bloods?
Tommy: And so what's the, um, what do you get to keep it at? What's the—
Naysan: keep it under level 6.
Tommy: Yeah. And how are you finding it?
Naysan: I didn't test last night. I should have, but I knew it wasn't going to be— but I haven't been that bad. Like, I'm not— when I got diagnosed with diabetes, I think I— and I just had like a stack of pancakes as well. Yeah, I was at like 8.7. You got to be less than 6.
Tommy: And so what does it mean? So what does it mean being a diabetic?
Naysan: It means you have high levels of sugar in your blood. And then the thing is, it's not only like not good for you, like as far as you lose your leg and shit. Yeah. The problem is it affects your circulation so you can lose your vision, you can lose your toes, your feet. That's kind of how it starts. So a lot of people— a good friend of mine was basically like, look, it's not about you dying. It's about you starting to lose your vision and your, you know, Lynn, quality of life issue with death.
Tommy: You've always said that you're—
Naysan: oh yeah, because I don't really— it sounds bad. Yeah, what, my mom gets mad.
Tommy: Yeah, do you think it's part of— because your dad passed away when he was quite young. No, do you feel like— is there a connection there, or— I don't think so.
Naysan: I feel— well, I mean, I'm a— as a Baha'i, by religion, we believe that this Earth is not the end of everything. We believe that there's an afterlife. And I feel like in a way this world is— we believe that this world is preparation for the spiritual realm. And so in a way, maybe it is.
Tommy: There's no weight limit. Yeah, and everyone gets a mansion.
Josh: Not really. On, um, The Invention of Lying, Ricky Gervais, he pretends he's— no one's lied before, and he pretends that he's been spoken to by the man in the sky, and everybody's starting, and he says, you know, after this there is something.
Tommy: Well, the Mormons get a, um, the Mormons get a planet, I believe.
Naysan: What is— I don't know about them. Or am I thinking of the Scientologists?
Tommy: Don't mix them up.
Naysan: Yeah, but so, but I will say about Ricky Gervais, because I, I'm a huge fan of his and he's very anti-religion and I'm very religious, but I absolutely love Ricky Gervais and I think a lot of the things he says are true. And I, I love his show Afterlife. It's great, isn't it? I think— I don't know if you've seen it. Yeah, I love that show. I think he's nailed it. And what's comedy?
Josh: But you're laughing and crying.
Naysan: I know, it's got all the emotions. And I like the fact— and I feel like you should be able to talk about your beliefs. Like, everybody has an agenda in a sense of talking about their beliefs. And he's made this show about the afterlife. And, you know, well, in a sense, it's about afterlife and being good and stuff. And I think like others should do that, you know, Baha'is should do that, Christians should do that, everybody should be able to express that. And, um, I think he did such a great job.
Josh: There's a video of a priest, parish head of the church, Catholic Church in California, in Los Angeles, talking with Sam Harris, who's an atheist scientist, uh, very different belief systems, and it's the most respectful conversation. The, the priest respects Sam, Sam resp— and it's just two belief systems having a conversation. Yeah, it's really great to watch.
Naysan: I think that's kind of one of the issues as well, and I— and maybe media, whether directly or indirectly, has helped fuel this, is that there is this kind of notion, especially when you hear the conversations happening, at least in Western media, is that again there's these false dichotomies. It's like you're either in this camp or you're in that camp, you're either this or you're that, you can't be You know, you can't be religious and love something like Ricky Gervais, who doesn't— you know, you can't have normal conversations about stuff. And I feel like that's really missing nowadays. I think that sense of respect, um, and really kind of like trying to work together with different types of people to find truth or to find harmony and, and help society move forward is really missing. And people are very quick to kind of like put themselves in a camp and that's it. And you see that in the political landscape of the US and so many different things. And Bill Maher, who I also— I love his podcast. Bill Maher talks about this concept a lot as well. And there's a lot of people talking about this. And I feel it is— it's refreshing to be able to have conversations with not just like-minded people, with, you know, people that think differently, but then you work things out together and then you can still walk away. Like the example you gave, you can still walk away maintaining your beliefs but being good buddies and getting a bubble tea together, you know.
Josh: Yeah, I mean, I think the, the media plays its role in sort of dictating the— I mean, they're not in control of your feelings, but they're definitely triggering to people who are consuming something, CNN or whatever it is, reading the newspaper. Like this morning on the way to work, um, I was listening to 774 ABC Radio, I think, And from the bushfires, which it was heavy, heavy coverage of all the stuff going on, now the coverage this morning was about we're not doing enough, they're not, they're not, um, dividing the money and sending out money quick enough, which is like, I could see this coming from a mile away that they would jump on that. It's 2 weeks after they've closed off a huge bunch of money.
Tommy: It's also cyclical, right? It's the same thing, like every disaster, every like it all has the same friction points because they could come out and say this charity has received $95 million, which is the biggest donation ever.
Josh: They don't know what to do with it and they don't want to fuck it up. So they're going to sort of slowly but mindfully start distributing the money because then there's going to be someone says my house is gone, I need help. And they're going like, we will fuck everyone's money. Yeah, that's not a— Yeah, because they want to run with it.
Naysan: I mean, in a sense, that's what trolling is, right? Like It's kind of like that in a different way, but they're just doing it to create— like, people want drama. I know you're not going to have a TV show. Negativity spreads. Yeah, negativity spreads. But imagine, I remember when I worked at CNN, Ted Turner was floating this idea, really want to start the Positive News Network or like, you know, the Good News Network. He wanted to have a network which just showed like good news, kind of like what we're trying to do at Inside Africa. Like, why does everything have to be about, you know, when you, you know, there are things as well that, you know, when I have friends that say, oh, the state of the world today is like, yeah, the state of the world is terrible, there's no question. But also, like, is it also because we have so much more access to news now? Like, people weren't able to just film on their phone, like, stuff happening. So when you're bombarded with these dramas constantly, how much— and I'm not saying we should dismiss that— how much negativity feeds negativity and how much positivity feeds positivity. Like, there's such a thing as positive peer pressure as well.
Tommy: But I guess there's, um, humans love tension. Yeah, we're like, we need tension in our lives. And so if everything was good or we saw everything through that lens, potentially it wouldn't create the tension that we like and we thrive, or that we, you know, crave. So yeah, I wonder where, where news and positivity sit. I don't know.
Josh: What about— so what about—
Naysan: it's a, it's a hard one.
Josh: I mean, I think, yeah, P&G, uh, you, you know, this, the horrible stuff that happens there. Yeah. What's the news there? Because I mean, where we're watching is from the privileged position of Melbourne or wherever we are around Australia. It's like we're lucky we're highly lucky in comparison to some of these third world countries.
Tommy: Like global news versus local news as well. Like, think about anyone who is looking at the bushfires who are outside of Australia. They think, and rightly so, that the whole of Australia is— But like, everything is burning, right? Like the way that it's communicated, and rightly so, because it is such a big thing. But I guess that can also change people's perspective.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah, what are you watching on the news in Papua New Guinea?
Naysan: I mean, I haven't been in a while. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think it's the same thing. I think like you're saying, people are drawn to tension and drama. And also the sad thing is that the way people do things, uh, in the West for example, or in, in a lot of news agencies that are kind of running the show, that becomes the norm and then everybody tries to follow suit, right? So you even see it like, you know, Netflix has a lot of comedians on the show. And I always find that really interesting that some of the comedians I've seen on Netflix that are from other countries that I've seen before, they do a Netflix special and their tone is different. You can see they're trying to sound American, they're swearing more, they're doing all these things that— wait a minute, like, they're almost imitating because that scene is the kind of standard. And I wonder, like, how much, how much of the stuff, like, when something is popular Does that mean it should be the standard?
Tommy: But then I guess like on the point around the negativity versus positivity, if you're talking about the CNN journalists having a real sense of justice— yep, justice requires us talking about it. And is it us being in a privileged position being like, oh no, we don't want the negativity? Like, if people are dying, if there are injustices, should we know?
Naysan: Yeah, but I think you can still look at people like, let's say there's a bad situation. For example, they reported about the fires a lot at the very beginning on ABC. I'll never forget this. Something they were talking about is how many homes were lost, right? Then somebody came out and said, what about the homes that were saved? Why aren't we talking about that? All these firemen and their volunteers are doing so much hard work. What about counting all the homes and lives they've saved? It's kind of the same thing, but it's looking at it differently.
Josh: So I told you, I talked about this, um, news.com.au, up the top a red bar with the tally of deaths, and it was almost gamifying it to go— I would cheque and go, fuck, is there any more? Like, I want to see this. Yeah, but what provokes change?
Tommy: What provokes, uh, donations? So if you, if you're a viewer and you say, oh, they saved heaps of homes does that get you to—
Naysan: Yeah, because you're going to be like, oh, they've got that, they've got it handled.
Tommy: And so there is, there is also— I guess who's run—
Josh: who's the incentive to— the incentive from a media outlet is, is, and views and listens. It's not donations. And so you can say that the attention to it, attention to the devastation, is helping the donations, but that's not their initial, uh, reason for putting it forward. They're a media company that need people listening talking, coming back.
Tommy: And then I guess if at the same time you— because you can definitely look at that. And I would say that the CNN example, like people say, oh, you know, the internet has created this world where all of this media is now based on clickbait and clicking through. It was just a different version. It was just phone calls like, who's called? Like, what are people calling up for? Right. And I'm sure that the— Yeah, the hidden camera with the, you know, slapping the dog. Can we get that up?
Josh: Actually, that actually— joking, Mason, he's actually doing it.
Tommy: The, you know, that, that creates a need within the business to find more of that. I guess like the other thing is the justice bit, and it feels like in that time the people that are being sat— what is the advantage to the public? So I guess there's a narrative or there's an agenda. The agenda is there is a climate crisis, we need to be doing something about it. Focusing on houses being saved doesn't necessarily communicate the problem. Yeah.
Naysan: And I think there's this constant kind of like turmoil or battle within these organizations, like, you know, news outlets and governments and different things of kind of like pulling on the emotions or the heartstrings versus the actual facts. And then the economy and, you know, there's there's, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's not easy, which is why, you know, the world is not easy. And I think, you know, these things are complex, but which is why, going back to your point, we need to have these discussions where two people of different ideas and things can talk about it. I think intention is, is critical here as well. Like, I think, um, when you have a society or cultures fueled by economic gain, then your intention immediately changes, and that Everything you do is built on a, you know, perhaps an incorrect foundation. So where does the, you know, intention lie if you're just trying to get clicks or you're just trying to get more money when what if you don't need as much money and what you need is, you know, people to come and hug the families? You know, there's these different things. I remember one of the stories, uh, one of my friends at CNN did a long time ago was about like some of the orphanages in Romania. After, um, some of the civil wars. And it was all over, like Bosnia, a bunch of these orphanages. And they were hiring retirees to come and hold the babies in these orphanages. And it's kind of like, you know, I think we also forget, like, we, we always look at things very materialistically. But what about the kind of— when you talk about emotion, what about things like that? Like, what about these people coming and just holding babies. Like, how— what kind of effect does that have on the situation of the orphanage, you know? And I think those are harder to measure. It's not like a tick thing that you can have coming across the screen, that you can't measure the emotional sustenance that that baby is gaining from this human being holding it and giving it love. So it's easier to just go for the obvious things like the statistics and stuff. And I think those are important conversations to have. We need to have a discourse on these concepts of like, why do we only go towards the kind of easy, obvious things when it might suck, but— and might be harder, but we have to focus on the more difficult things. The development world does that too. When I lived in East Timor, it's the same thing. People wanted to do a mural on a wall, like graffiti and a mural with an organisation about peace and harmony, because that was an easy thing to do. It's like, we get the artist to come, they paint the mural, we can take photos of it, there's a photo opportunity, shake hands, and then it's done. It's a complete project. But they're not looking— and because they might not be funded next year, so they need to show something to get funds. But if they're really looking at the well-being, like the— and I mean that holistically, not just like financially— the well-being of that neighbourhood where they did that mural, wouldn't you look at it from generations, you know, for generations? Like, okay, what does this community really need? When I was in Uganda, it was the same thing. In northern Uganda was one of the worst civil wars ever. People hacked to death, all the stuff going on. And these doctors and therapists came in and they found that these villages that had been ravaged by the soldiers or rebels and, you know, just horrific things happen. When they asked them what the village wanted, they said, we want to build our church first. We need the church first. And it's kind of like, what? Like, everybody's sending clothes and food and stuff. But so these things are non-measurables. And I think they're just a lot harder to figure out.
Tommy: What's the finite games versus the infinite games? And I guess the finite games are the easier ones to play because there's a set of rules and boundaries. It's like you do this, you get money, all that sort of thing. The infinite games have the opportunity to make huge amounts of positive change, but they're harder.
Naysan: They're harder and they take longer, and you have to be in it for the long run. I see it as like the sprint versus the marathon, or, you know, and, and I feel like people are just, you know, we don't— especially also with a lot of the technology now, we're kind of in an instant culture. Like, everything is so instant, so we're not thinking long term about like what these ramifications are.
Tommy: Before we finish up, uh, on Wednesday, uh, Mr. 97, uh, did a bit of a talk on sex with our mate Scooter Derek.
Josh: Clappy bit. Yeah, nice time. You've seen that?
Naysan: You said you're very brave. Very brave. I was really, really—
Tommy: What's your thoughts on sex?
Naysan: I mean, I think it's a beautiful thing.
Tommy: What about like from the— I guess, uh, looking at it in the through the eyes of religion and your experiences with sex, how has it changed, or your perception has changed over the years?
Naysan: Uh, I don't know if my perception's changed. My mom is going to be watching this.
Tommy: Yeah, that's right. Hey, Mom. I know.
Naysan: I mean, I think so is my mom.
Tommy: I think, yeah, lean in.
Naysan: No, I mean, like, in what, what context? I mean, I think it's, it's— I do think, as we're talking about media that especially in the West, there's been this profound, like, emphasis on sex and sexuality. And I feel like, you know, you almost like— I feel like it's one part of the, of the human experience, of social life and family life and the individual and stuff. But it's kind of like we're bombarded by it so much that it's become such a big piece of the pie of everything. And I feel like— I definitely feel there's an imbalance in that. And I think that also promotes like different concepts of like, you know, like, uh, with marriage or things like this romantic idea. The same way kind of like romantic movies can kind of create a false sense of what a marriage is supposed to be, you know, like, oh, I thought I'd be galloping on horseback along the beach together, but actually life is hard and we can't pay the rent and we've got to do the laundry and pick up the kids. And, you know, reality reality sets in. And I think they create these kind of mirages. I think, like, as far as sex goes, the society has focused so much on this that it's very dangerous. It creates these kind of, you know, mirages. And, and that can work in different ways depending on, um, how you consume it and stuff. But I feel, um, I mean, I think it's a beautiful thing. I'm a Baha'i. As Baha'is, um, sex, the sex impulse and stuff, is acknowledged and encouraged, but it's you know, encouraged within the context of a marriage.
Tommy: And so guilt and sex, I guess that those are two things that are intertwined in a weird way for many people. Yeah, I think, yeah, maybe.
Naysan: And especially when it's being spoken about in religious context often. I think I don't see religion as that way though. I, I see, for example, belief systems, or at least my belief system, kind of the way that, you know, I don't think there should be this kind of like guilt of lightning bolts or whatever. You've done something right or wrong, or, oh, you had sex before marriage, shame on you. I don't think it's like that. I think it's more kind of like these teachings from these prophets or messengers is kind of like, you know, this is what it looks like to have a well-balanced diet.
Tommy: And is that based on culture, do you think, though? Do you think that's like culture in a period of time? So if you look at when those Prophets were around and it was a long time ago, it was more conservative in that time. So the views will potentially be more conservative.
Naysan: Yeah, but I don't— I mean, again, that's to do with belief because I don't believe that those things are based on just culture and time. I think those things— I think if you believe in spirituality, I think there's certain spiritual truths that run through. If you believe, you know, for Baha'i, we believe that human beings are both physical and spiritual. And the two are also interconnected and intertwined. So what you do physically also has ramifications on your spiritual well-being. And then these things also have social ramifications and things naturally. But so I don't think you can kind of necessarily always separate the two. It's like once you've added milk into your tea, you can't separate it. And I feel like human beings are like that and you can't— again, these— a lot of these are false dichotomies. I think.
Tommy: Does religion have room to move? So for instance, if the times have changed or things have evolved, what does— like, I guess you can use your sort of faith as a way— like, have you seen the Baha'i Faith change based on society? Yes, but not in the—
Naysan: not in the— the Baha'i Faith does change, but not in the sense of our laws and teachings, for example. So the Baha'u'llah is the prophet of the Baha'i Faith, and there's laws that Baha'u'llah put down that Baha'is stick to and don't change. But the Baha'i administration— we have elected 9 people every 5 years that run the affairs of the Baha'i world community, and then in local communities, those people can change the laws of the Baha'i faith, for example. That, that doesn't change. Like, if in, in Baha'u'llah's teachings, he said, if things have not been decided upon by Baha'u'llah, then it's the job of the Universal House of Justice that elected 9 people to basically come up with those laws. So, for example, you know, things that are coming up nowadays, then the Universal House of Justice will make a— will, if they decide or not, to make a law on those things. But then again, Baha'is are also products of their environment, their reality, just people like everybody else. So so much of their own culture is also so heavily influenced and infused into the way. So like, you know, somebody in Australia might see some of these laws, um, in a certain way, and then somebody living in Zimbabwe might, you know, see some of these laws in a different way and also struggle with different types of things at different, you know, depending on the media and what society promotes and, you know, all this type of thing.
Tommy: The media thing you were talking about, the romanticism of, say, marriage. Yeah, it's like it's on a horse and on a beach, all that sort of thing, which sounds horrendous to me. Like, the idea of being on a horse on a beach seems uncomfortable. Um, I guess if you were on a saddle and stuff. Yeah, if you've got a saddle. And if you're naked, it's worse. But so using that example, you see, or you hear storeys of your religious, uh, mates. So it's like, we didn't do sex before marriage. Yeah. They didn't live together before marriage, and then they finally get married, move in, realise that they're completely incompatible, and then they end up sexually— or just across the board, like, so, ah, it's a fucking pain in the ass to live with, we're not sexually compatible, all that sort of stuff. Is religion in some ways just like that media narrative where it's romanticising the importance of this specific thing rather than the nuance of let's actually, as 97 puts it, test and learn. Yeah.
Naysan: Before we, uh, I mean, I think, I think it depends. Like in the Baha'i faith, um, for example, I think, you know, we're encouraged to get to know the partner and things like that, but then why, why does having sex with a person define getting to know that person? And whether you're—
Tommy: and so isn't that the question? Well, if we, if we talk about that milk and tea and it's sort of all intertwined, is it also just as naive to say that they are— like, that we do separate those things? We can know someone socially, or we, we can know a partner without having that experience.
Naysan: Yeah, and this is what I'm saying. I'm saying, like, how do you kind of, like, you know, like, why an emphasis on that, for example, where then not like, like why would people assume that that is the cause of a divorce? For example, I don't— I just think human beings are— I mean, I can see how that can happen because if you think about—
Tommy: yeah, if you think about it, you can also go the other way.
Josh: Like this, that sort of version you set up, one narrative is like, makes sense to sort of push down or disregard the worth of not experimenting or not doing the stuff before you get married. Because the other way is you with somebody who you had massive chemistry with, then you're not into the sex with them later on. That's why you dump them.
Naysan: Yeah. And so then, or, or even getting to, you know, I have friends that have, for example, you know, had lots of sex before they got married. And then when they— friend. Yeah. No, no, no. And then when they got married, they really struggled because all they were doing was comparing it to all their other sexual partners. So that could also backfire, right? So Whereas if, if, if there is chastity involved and both people come to it, they learn, they explore, they grow together in that way. And then also, again, like so much of this revolves around like these notions of kind of like, what is our purpose in life? What does marriage mean? You know, it's again, these are things that I find it is so complex and difficult. I don't feel like it's necessarily able to, you know, you can't necessarily pigeonhole things even with my divorce, people were like, oh, you proposed to her the third time you met her, no wonder you got divorced. But I don't think that's why we got divorced. There were other factors, and there wasn't one factor, there's many different factors.
Tommy: Would you potentially say—
Naysan: complex is what I'm saying—
Tommy: would you say potentially that meeting 3 times and then getting married, there is a lot— a higher likelihood of divorce based on the testing and learning stuff. You haven't actually worked out whether—
Naysan: No, because compatibility— No, because you go to countries like India where there's a lot of arranged marriage and they have an extremely successful marriage rate. Is that because they're going out?
Tommy: But is it going based on their value system? So they're actually not seeking those things, but because of media and everything like that, we have the expectation that it's like, if you're getting married with someone, you should be doing all these things. You can have the whole thing.
Naysan: Yeah, but I also think, again, these things are complex because like that whole concept of like, you know, what do I want, what's important for me, and like individualism also plays into it. Societies like in India, for example, where it's more social and communal and it's not just about you, it's about your family, it's about the society you live in and the neighbourhood and stuff, plays a big role too in shaping your thoughts and emotions on how you interpret and take things on. So if you live in an individualistic society where everything is about whatever you feel and whatever makes you feel, and also that pumps this concept of the pleasure principle—
Tommy: you say pumps the—
Naysan: yeah, sorry, maybe not the best, but I mean, it's pumping it out. I mean, this pleasure principle, like in, in, you know, in the US and Australia, I think like there's so much emphasis on this concept of whatever makes happy, you know, and stuff. But what if what makes you happy is at the expense of others? And it's not always just obvious things like violence or whatever. Like, what, what about economy or business? People screw each other over business-wise, but it's all— it's, it's okay. It's just, it's just business. Like, that term, it's just business. Wait a minute, like, why is that okay? What about being human? What about emotion and love and trying to do the right thing? So I'm just saying these things are also hard to navigate or understand when they're— even for someone like me, when they're on, like, who assumes that I have kind of a, kind of clear direction of what's nuanced. It's just so nuanced. Oral sex, those nuances are based on very, like, difficult foundations depending on the environment you live in.
Tommy: Is it the reproductive bit that, like, within, say, the content, like, obviously you know a lot about your faith Is it the reproductive nature of sex that's a problem? And is oral sex seen as okay? No, you can't. No oral sex either. Okay, that was it. Anything else, Seb? Anything you want to ask him? No. Okay, very brave.
Naysan: No, very brave. Like, that, that video you're in is fantastic and important, I think, right?
Tommy: Like, it's, it's important to be able to have—
Naysan: I think it's important. Yeah. Exactly. I think when you talked about the priest, I think these conversations are so important and of all types, of all kind of, you know, and not to be influenced by others. Don't let people tell you what you do, what you feel is right when you feel it's right. If you feel it, like, don't, like, yeah, don't give in to that peer pressure, whatever that may be.
Josh: Unless your name's Tully.
Tommy: Long story. Uh, it's a daily talk show. Uh, hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It's always appreciated. Otherwise, fine, but 5-star. Yeah, which we had the other day. Seb, did you want to read that around? What? So we had, we had someone who had some feedback, but they gave a 5-star review, which we appreciate. Okay, we did a whole bit, um, talking about constructive feedback.
Naysan: I think so. Yeah, yeah.
Tommy: Okay, horoscopes. We were talking about that the other day, which we won't get into today because massive rabbit hole. What is your horoscope, by the way?
Naysan: Yeah, like Gemini, that one, or Chinese?
Josh: Which one?
Tommy: Oh, of course, Mr.
Naysan: International. I'm Gemini. Yep. And then Chinese, I'm a tiger.
Tommy: Uh, actually, I've got a, I've got a tiger hat at home which you could have.
Josh: Yeah, would you wear it? I'll tell you the story.
Naysan: Yeah, what colour is the hat? Black? Yeah, I'll wear it.
Josh: Okay, um, yeah, we got a review from Gronk100.
Mason: Uh, is their new username. Nando's Extra Hot was the, uh, title. Your episode on spirituality and horoscopes was so mind-numbingly boring that it resulted in me falling asleep at the wheel, crashing my car into a bridge, and delaying traffic on the M1 during peak hour. I'm suing. You better lawyer up, Gronks. 5 stars.
Josh: Yeah, but he said they said 5 stars. Hit the 5-star. Yeah, yeah, it's very generous. And sorry about your car. Yeah, not sorry about the convo.
Naysan: Yeah, I don't know if the convo would have put him to sleep. You guys have— yeah. Oh, thank you. How could you fall asleep? Thanks, Taka.
Tommy: Thank you. All right, see you guys. See you guys.
Mason: Bye.
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