#577 – Crystal Andrews On How To Win Every Argument/
- January 14, 2020
Crystal Andrews – Author, Journalist
Crystal is a journalist and the author of the book ‘How to Win Every Argument’, which breaks down 15 of the biggest topics in Australia, creating well-informed arguments on everything from climate change to festival pill testing, immigration, vaccinations and more.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
– Crystal’s book, ‘How To Win Every Argument’
– Conversions with people who disagree
– Devil’s advocate
– Political conversations
– Constructive criticism
– What success looks like when writing a book
– Getting into media and journalism
– Cancel and call-out culture
Crystal on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/crystal_jane/
Crystal’s website: https://www.zeefeed.com.au/
Email us: firstname.lastname@example.org
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
The Daily Talk Show Episode 577 got a special guest in the studio. Crystal Andrews. Welcome guys with me. Thank you winning every argument since 2009. I mean, you've got that winning vibe about you.
Really appreciate it. So no one has ever said that a little bit. Nobody else has mentioned it. I'm all about winners. You're a winner if you've been able to even write a book, because I don't know if we have the one that I wrote one day, one day, one day, I didn't say you weren't a winner. No, not right now. So you're a writer, a journo and you've written this book, how to win every argument. Yeah, ambitious title. Yeah. The it's very small to be able to win every argument. Look, there are some disclaimers pretty early in the book. It's not every argument but I think it's a pretty well rounded look at what most people are talking about right now. I smell is great. I mean, this smells great.
Content now Yeah, it's some of the hot button topics like can't Can we just joshy words are important. We need to get it right. So assist some of the things you're covering the arguments, astrology, climate change, free speech, the gender pay gap, blue homeownership, and it goes on. And we're going big. Yeah. How did it because I always feel that I'm never in a position to talk about anything. Like I always feel like there's someone that's going to know more. Do you think that that is a misguided approach to to the big issues? Absolutely. That's really the reason I wrote the book is to give people just that background understanding of a big topic like climate change, or homeownership or free speech. That's a huge one, and just have enough of a well rounded understanding that you feel like you can get involved. It's not every single fact otherwise have a much bigger book. Is it a wicked coordinate? encyclopaedia? Can you still get it? So I'm having an obsession of Iran at the moment? And have you had a world of books
Nice. So it's like it's a secondhand bookstore like Amazon but secondhand books and they've got everything. Yeah, and I love the idea because I'm not a bit of a poser when it comes to reading. I buy more books and I read and you just like to have them stand up on the bed. Exactly. And the problem being that when you buy new books, they look new. And so the next poser element is buying secondhand book so that
you can sort of mask it is like, pack for 2097 is doing life hacks. But anyway, the
what was I going with that I've read books now Iran, Iran, and encyclopaedias. I didn't read like I was looking at a book and it turns out that it was like a huge like section just of a encyclopaedia. It was a lot of money. The last time you actually saw a physical encyclopaedia and I all that keeps coming to mind of those. Encyclopaedia Britannica like sad, wrong. Big sad generation. Thank you.
Doing door to door sales.
If you have a smart kid, it could have been an approach for your book. And then as you go door to door door to door, I mean Josh and I were saying like, it's it's almost a power move for bringing people over to have a few wines and they get there and they say that you've got this book open. Try me. Let's commit let's commit I feel like it's a weapon in the like in the wrong hands. Because if you've got a level of confidence if you read a book like that, is there a risk that potentially you think that you know everything? Look, I don't think that's how the book is positioned. Right? Like that's not how it how I come across anyway. It's just really about encouraging people to get in there I think. Yeah, I don't think you can be too confident. Do you think
the real hot crack I think Christine too confident with these things everybody just has so you know, the nature of the the topics in here is everyone has an opinion. And so everyone's got an opinion, but not everyone's right. But also, I guess there's like multiple
Truth to a single thing. How do you navigate the fact that some things just might be someone's opinion? Well, some things are just people's opinion. Right? Yeah. I think there are sections that are that there are a right or wrong, some things and not really contested like, yeah, climate change. Yeah. A vaccine vaccines, exactly. Anti vaccine. This is just an area that researching that blew my mind. Because the whole premise of the book is I've gone and found what people say against these kind of commonly accepted topics, I suppose. So you're like scrolling these anti Vax forums to say what arguments they put up to say that you shouldn't vaccinate your kids. It's not Yeah, it's crazy. Absolutely not. You don't need to vaccinate your kids if you breastfeed them, because that's enough to protect them from every single disease that ever will be. It's like, no, that's not that doesn't even hold up to basic logic. And so how do you have conversation like with it with using that exact
ample when someone has such a strong belief? Is it worth having a conversation with someone like that? I think so I think you should try. I mean, don't beat your head against the wall, try and go nowhere. But I think you should always just give it a bit of a crap. I like to sort of in the introduction, you talking about those moments we get in an argument with a friend or somebody in the world and you get home and then that's when you realise that that's what I should have said here. I'm actually knew that I was in the moment. I mean, this is the this is the reality. And then online, it sort of has this weird place where people are playing in that place where they haven't got the answers, but they're willing to just start communicating. So last night, I was on Facebook just saw a friend post about it was relating to climate change. He said, I haven't yet watched a disbeliever that climate change is real, but have a look at this. And it was like the temperatures from the 1950s and there was some like 51 degree days all across Australia and it was like
And then I just posted a little popcorn emoji because I was I just jumped into the comment and the comment it was full on. And everyone had a point to some degree. And then I went down a rabbit hole recently watching a guy who was he's pretty far right talking about climate change and put up a good put up a good piece of information. That's counter to the climate change argument. Do I believe that climate change is nothing? No. But what I what I like about this book is that you pose both the sides to give people the opportunity to realise there are actually two sides because you can get so caught in the echo chamber, like when you're going down the anti Vax, these people are just it's reverberating off the wall that's in front of their eyes. And that's how far their information goes of their own argument, because it just comes straight back to them from their best mate the person around them. What was the most interesting thing you found outside of the anti Vax one because I'm sure that's a huge rabbit hole. What was one that really surprised you about any piece of information that you found people
that people really just clung on to cling on to, I think the free speech one, particularly right now is huge, and it's probably only going to continue to get bigger. And people really believe that free speech means you can say whatever you want to say without consequence, which is like the key bit of that statement, right? Because technically, you probably can say almost anything you want to say, but not without consequence. And that was the part that kept getting left off every single argument. You'd say to say that free speech was being eroded because, you know, Israel philau can't post about his Christian beliefs on social media, even though he's got a contract with the Wallabies that has certain values baked into that contract that will let you know his free speech is being eroded. Actually, probably not in my estimation, because it doesn't mean that nothing bad can happen to you just because you want to say what you want to say when you lean into arguments.
What do you expect? Like it? I can just imagine so like Christmas time, you're like relatives or whatever with all different opinions. I feel like it maybe I'm a bit of a coward. But I enter into ship just because I can't be fucked, like dealing with whatever. And also I don't have enough food for me. I feel like I don't know like, yeah, you could like say for instance, someone with the climate change stuff there was a you know, there's these four How do you answer you know, these four days in this year? I might have no fucking idea like, Yeah, I was day nine. Yeah. 57. And so how, what do you what are you accepting when you lean into arguments like this? I think hearing people is the really big one because that's sort of what it feels like. everyone just wants their opinion to be heard. And if you just listen, it kind of takes the heat out of it a little bit. My biggest tip that I found has worked on so many of these topics when you're on the cusp of what feels like could be something a little
explosive is to ask five questions. Have you guys ever heard of that? Know that theory. So the theory is that if you just keep asking why not like a kid would just why why why, but ask why they think that or where they read it. And why does that make sense to them you'll keep drilling down until you hit something that is kind of a universal truth that you can probably both agree with, or that you can at least understand. So that is another thing that you can go Okay, this feels like it's going to be if I feel like I don't have enough information, and it could be a little bit tense, going with thought of I'll just ask why a few times and actually do some digging. And hopefully come to something that you can both agree on all that is in your wheelhouse kind of wrestle him. What do you think about the devil's advocate? thing, love the devil's advocate? Yeah, I'll give it Yeah. And so I guess the the devil's advocate, if you think about what's popular right now, make climate change or
The science around that there's a bunch of people who are playing the devil's advocate in like a way that's not great for the world. When, when should we be a devil's advocate? And when do we all need to just understand that I know we should just go in this direction? I think devil's advocate is really good for testing out those arguments. But, you know, with climate change 97% of the actively publishing scientists agree. games over Yeah, so the devil's advocate, right. So where are you from, like a nuanced point of view, because I wonder about this, like with say,
with all the fires and things like that, like I haven't, I haven't been into like the media, like into the whole area with it. But one of the things that I think about is like, okay,
so there's climate change, which we like say we universally agree on, then there's like the nuances within that those elements. So say like the sky mo stuff. There was a point in which I was like, it
Shit canning sky Mo, is it becoming unproductive from the overall thing like Do we? I sort of just think like all these things that are happening right now there's happening for years and years and years. Scammers only been around like, Prime Minister for I don't even know. Yeah. And so
I'm Kevin oh seven.
I actually went to high school I was sick that day. So annoying. But my friend fan Yeah, my friend shook his hand and she was eating Amanda and at the time
she was on rove because Kevin Rudd wiped his hands on his pants after shaking her head being like, yeah, so something new ones like that and being out like connecting things. How do you reconcile that stuff? Like how do you work out like, okay, so I'm not gonna I don't know the specifics of this, this and this. When do you bring politics into things? When do you hold people accountable? What's your like, personal
Somebody like not even through the book, but what's your personal filter?
I think my personal take on that is when it is one individual, because it's kind of easy to hold one individual to account. Like, we're pretty comfortable with that. And that is what happened with Scott Morrison.
But when you take a step back and say, is it the person or when do they become a product of the system? Or is it the system itself? That's when it I feel like I want to pull back from you, you did this, you didn't do this, whatever it is, and go hang on, is it what what role does this person operate within the system and how is that shaping what we understand? I think that's really been the key thing that's been kind of missed in all the push via tonight, really, it's the focus is what on what he did or didn't do, which that aside, if he hasn't seen the craft at all these policies and he hasn't actually been delayed.
That long he's dealing with the classes. He's responding to it as it happens, but who are the people behind him and so he's symbolic almost a symbolic to a bigger issue Do you think we not like? Does the average punter know that that when we're doing this it's done within sort of a symbolic way? My gut feeling is no i don't i don't know how well people really understand how that all works. I don't think that I fully grasp how much works when you go into politics as one person who probably really does want to make a difference and and wants to serve their country and and make a change but then you get into that system and what are all the different forces at play? Who's really pulling the strings I sound like a conspiracy.
Any any, any in any business environment, there's a guy new applying Sonic lane become that person as the Prime Minister. It's a massive guy. I mean, the cultural influence of people beating him down gives you this perspective on him. Whether you like him
Not one thing. You have a general vibe on the guy. My wife and I were listening to ABC on the way to work one morning. And there was this interview with this guy and a woman Cade from ABC, asking some tough questions. This person was answering really well. And I was like, this guy's great. And then they're like, Oh, well, thank you, Scott Morrison. And we were like, that was scotoma. And I was blood. And I was almost like, a moment where I realised the judgement as soon as I heard the name on him, and I was like, I actually thought if I didn't know who it was, if it was a different voice, that I kind of appreciated the way he answered these questions that were quite hard. I was like, that was great. Why answer that? And so then it's like, do you just hate the guy? And so it doesn't matter what he says by the end of it. And so in an argument, you've got two sides, and if you hate the other person, you're not gonna give a shit about their argument. Do you think when people get into arguments with someone else, say let's take an example here, so let's go
veganism. You are actually hot button right now actually, on game changes. Yeah.
do you think when you get into an argument about veganism, whether it's helping the world or it's better for your health,
and you're talking to somebody who you know, is on the opposing field or the other side, that that is shut down the ability for me to even accept whether I lose the argument or not, you know what I mean? Like, whether I'm up for even a meeting that I'll lose this thing, because I don't like what does a win look like? In an argument? But it's for everyone. It's not. I mean, do you want to find out why that why that person? is vegan? What are their reasons? Why did I think it's better for the environment? Or are you just trying to score points? I think really scoring points is probably where it gets into those sling matches and the crappy Like, comment threads.
On Instagram where people are just ignoring these part of the comment, and I'll address these because I know I can deal with it and it just gets into this crazy thread that doesn't go anywhere. Or you're approaching from that place of curiosity to find out actually what is something that we can all agree is constructive and going to move us all forward. I guess all these topics, the sort of things that at least my interpretation is, if we can kind of get a consensus on these things, we can start to move forward and progress. Have you changed your mind on anything recently? Gosh, that's a that's a ship like, do I want to admit to that? That's another thing.
That is part of it. You don't necessarily always want to like give the whole game away. You can walk away still being good point. Yeah. And so what's the so I guess the
how to win every argument. It's tongue in cheek. Yeah, exactly. And so this tongue in cheek and so there is the Abyss there would be a bunch of people like when I posted about it on Instagram. There's people like
Like, love the just a title online and creates a bit of a response response in people. Do you think that there is a reframing of what it means to have an opinion or or bangs or like say for instance on the political stuff like I feel like when I have a conversation normally people are trying to work out where you fit within the political spectrum ice. Yeah, yeah. And the thing is, I actually don't even know what like I don't know where I fit like, I'm pretty I feel like I'm pretty left leaning. I think like, you know, do you ever do that like at election time to ABC? do that thing where
you say this is I did that. Right? Crazy. Jackie? Jackie. ended up throwing me pretty centre. Yeah, right. Really? What did that surprise you? Because I am for It's crazy.
Right? But not really like I was. Yeah, I kind of like seems like a safe ground being centred. It's like, maybe I've become a progressive with z.
Come on, gone. So I feel like I've got room to move. It's either pretty far over here or a little bit that way which will help. I don't know. centres pretty good, isn't it? Yeah, it's a Hollywood set to vote green.
They should have had the best president. Can you sit? Can you I was nice. Even even the political conversation has where we've kind of slid down in a lot of this conversation. It's a slippery slope. It is tough. Like if we took another one, which is like homeownership, I don't think would go down as far as a rabbit hole in its layers as we do when it comes to a political conversation. I think it can be can Yeah, when you
start to get into the economics behind that it very quickly kind of slides into this weird political area that it kind of is but it's not quite because really, I guess that's the backbone of a lot of political policies. What are they going to do for the economy is it people dig to first time is honest to get
best is okay, I'll use another example because maybe these are all circulating back to some kind of political skewed like
there was kombucha
you know, I feel like if you're right wing FACA matcha anything bed there's also all year it's like you Deepak sacred the kombucha you think is saved, you know the proud boys? Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's it. I mean the, I guess this is why people veer away from these conversations, right because of the political side of combos normally end in like a bit of a nightmare. I feel like for a lot of people.
Like, I don't know if it's getting any better. I mean, if you look on online and you look at social media, I think most of the time you don't want to necessarily enter into a conversation because of there's always going to be someone that believes the opposite.
Yeah, but he's the fallacy to think that way just
left and right. But one is better or, you know, conservative or progressive. Nobody, I think is that black or we're not that binary. Well, yeah, that's what I think. But then you have like, say media and they talk about like, like, what you consuming and say like,
Yeah, I don't know, like, I only discovered like, a couple of years. Like, I'm so dumb like a couple of years ago, I only realised it was like a left and right. Like I was like, well, I said to you, is that based on our age, and social media in the media, talking about these left rights, fake news, fake news, all that stuff? Like, do you think it's because it's more vocal now that people are even saying, I now need to work out where I fit on the political spec? Yeah, I think so. It's becoming like an identity. It's an identity moment. We've almost gone through cycles of being identifying as a collective and that
Where the strength is and then it became really about the individual and your unique, which is probably like a millennial suit, right? We're all very unique, little snowflake. Yeah, definitely not me. So
can we entertain the kombucha conversation just for a little bit longer?
I mean, you want to know the kombucha conversation I think closely linked to the purified water conversation, you know whether it's any good or not, so if someone isn't so if you just jump in to see what's inside, it states kombucha but isn't state sort of your approach to it the two sides so if you want to just sort of elaborate you can use the book as cheat sheets if you've I think I've got
it goes right now.
Very impressive. So what what do you hold up so for the kombucha conversation body? What are the two sides? So the
mind you Yeah, good to roll up this fader, the kombucha chapter, I guess is a little bit of a kind of record.
Presents health discussions and what way sometimes cling on to as these like cure all health moments. kombucha is kind of the symbol now right for gut health, and everyone thinks that they need to really improve their gut health and kombucha is full of probiotics and so you should drink it every day because it's going to be really good for you. I did hear that I drank it. My stomach somehow felt better. But I think that's a real thing. Yeah, I was like, I definitely feel healthy drinking this based on just hearing. Your top line is all I knew about it. And so I drank the Kool Aid or drank the cambogia cleanser. And so anyway, so it's not like, Yeah, what's what's the story, then it's about finding out Okay. Is that true?
The health benefits represented as accurately as they seem to be in the media. And how does media which I mean, I'm a part of I work in the media, but how does media take findings from scientific studies and spin them
To make it seem a little bit more interesting and you know a little bit more impressive than it is to get you to click and write something, but is it overstated is the question without you know, spoilers without spoilers? Yeah, I guess like in the 90s it was the big movement away from fat and then they'll like, you know, flooding that food with sugar. It's like we've had like, what? Low fat movie? Yes. No sugar moments. Kato? undecayed I've done all of that whole set. Yeah. And that's like a very American one. That was like Jennifer Aniston, my kids huge. So we've kind of been through all these different health moments, but like, Are we really any metaphor? And then if not, so what's the answer when people say like, the common thing people say is just just like balance, moderation. And then I just like yell at them and say, I don't know what balances. I am nice. Oh, yeah, exactly. You don't know what it's like to go as a fat kid. You know, that sort of thing. How do you perceive balance and moderation.
I'm not really a dietitian maybe I don't know if I qualified to answer this
specifically the helpful so this is the thing like so how often is the food way and all that sort of thing? nutrition diet dietary or dietician sort of compensation versus like a set of beliefs
I could feel about what's like good yeah exactly bad food and you know if you have something bad then you need to go to the gym Yeah, you're allowed a cheat day I just want to know you die on apply my data flight so do you know what actually could tell you? Oh, yeah, pretty much what I every single day because my partner and I for the past is going on a method
that's what you guys
way have pretty much eight in the same thing every single day for all meals five days a week for the past two years. Wow. Why
is just full time and money reasons. And so what
are you trying to that what you
Are you part of the fire movement? financially independent retire early? That's why I froze all those burritos are they are they done by the way just to left that answer hang on so are you a minimalist? Do you like you trying to go How can I find the other day? That's not right. Yeah, no not not a minimal meals but is minimal needs like the same output. Yeah, no decision making. Yeah, you wake up in the morning to wear the same clothes as right. Okay, that's right time spent standing in front of wardrobe trying to decide what so what do you Wait, what's the five meals a day? that's consistent? You know, like five days a week? five days a week. Okay, sorry. So you do three meals a day? Okay, what do you ate and snacks actually, okay, don't go. You really want me
to have a breakfast? I'm too bored eggs. Yeah, a cup of hot water and lemon. super exciting. morning tea. I have those little um, like dried lentils, things you get from the supermarket. Like salted? Yeah, like
It's like you like chicken soy? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Be great with just a little handful of those for morning tea. I don't even have morning tea. I should. How do you get? How do you get? I think I probably I balance. Yeah, I just I have a lot of coffee in the morning today. That's good. Yeah. Morning. Take them for lunch. I'll either have tuna salad or stir fried noodles. Yeah. And then Dina dressing on the salad. not okay. Just olive oil. Okay, going. This is good. This is good. This is good. And then for dinner. It's either the stir fried newt like, oh, make a big batch on Tuesday night and that'll be the ultimate dinner lunch or tofu stuff. Right? So you don't find you don't value food on the weekends and we have whatever Okay, all right. Yeah. And so what do you find that you crave during the week? What's the first thing you have on a on a Saturday?
Bacon egg. Yeah. And so something like carby and delicious like her years of doing that and you know, you don't know like
After about six months, you do
six months of pay. I'm all behind it. I'm all behind it. Because once you do something like that, then you actually understand if you do something consistently for the six months, you then realise where you're falling short. So what are the benefits? Save some cash will tell us how much saving cash but you know, pretty much like what you're going to spend on groceries that week for every week for the rest of the year for the rest of your life. Yeah. And you just don't spend any time thinking about what do I want for dinner? What am I gonna make for lunch? Do I have the ingredients for that? Wait, now I've got to go the grocery store midweek because we want to have whatever random meal was that a big thing for you before you started doing this? Yeah, I hated I don't mind cooking. I hate deciding what to make. Right? It sounds like someone else. Someone else decides I'll happily cook it. I just don't like choosing. Now I get bogged down.
I love this as a headline.
Right, it is the title of the book. But when it comes to sort of the media now we're very headline driven. I feel like I, we've talked about this before on the podcast, like,
people who work in media have a real grasp on the world at a headline level. Because a lot of the time we're not doing investigation into specifics. I mean, you should like within the radio industry.
Tommy used to work in shepparton at a radio station. It's like, yeah, go on to the news website. See what the top headlines are, know, a couple of sentences on each one and you good, I think you're good at headlines. Do you think do you think that's a skill? Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'll take that. What is how do you go about finding a headline, like, what's the thought process behind finding a headline in something that you're working on a piece of writing for the book that matter? I think you need to know what people will care about most about the thing that you're writing and that might not actually be the crux of the panel.
Or the crux of the argument if you want to use that terminology. So it's about what's what's something that's going to grab people's attention. Because really, we're getting all out and using infinite information from social media pretty overwhelmingly so it's like a scroll you need like a thumb stopping moment. Yeah. And so clickbait so I guess if you have a
an article, and then you find the, the most interesting bit it's not necessarily the meat of the article.
media companies considering that do they want to like do they need to try to say within YouTube, they're like, they sort of promoting or they want people where they click on something and then consume it for a decent period of time, which are reduces clickbait because if you say one thing and then you click through then people are going to, you know, leave it what what sort of the internet still has to be there, like whatever you kind of put up there as a headline that still has to be in your content.
In some way, shape or form, but it can evolve. Yeah, you can kind of take that thought and start to grow it into something bigger that you actually might want to communicate, rather than just, you know, having that stated fact, quite plain, maybe isn't going to get the people to read it that really actually should be writing it.
When it comes to feedback, so for instance, you put the book out feedback. So funny thing, because if it is negative, it's like, one person started an argument but won't let you talk. You know, it's like it or you just decide not to enter back into it. How do you go with feedback? And when it is, sort of, I mean, could be couldn't call constructive or destructive criticism, constructive criticism? Yes, it does. It doesn't necessarily feel good. What's your relationship with feedback around the work that you do? I love feedback. So if you guys have any feedback on this book for me, I mean, he told you that it smells good.
Because Tommy's always said to me, people don't like feedback.
Because like I say people don't like giving feedback I always answer because I'll always say, I try and position and like, say one bad thing about this, like, say like, I just want you in this moment to slam if you work, or it doesn't even have to be what you think, what do you think can be a criticism?
Yeah. And so do you have ways of framing that when when you're writing the book, with the editors or people involved that you could rely on to provide that? Yeah, so I worked with an amazing editor. She's actually based here in Melbourne. And that was quite a confronting process for something that is so like, this is my little baby. I've been working on it for ages. And then you give that first draft over to somebody else whose job it is to actually sit there and go over it with a fine tooth, fine tooth comb and really neat the cat It was quite confronting, which she was amazing. And I think the key is just to if something feels painful or uncomfortable, and it's like sticking in your side or your gut reaction is to be like, Oh, no, that's not
And it's more about thinking why do I Why am I reacting this way to that information? Usually it says more about you doesn't it? Yeah. Well, I think we take the initial gut reaction as the truth or it's like well I feel this way Yeah. And so you're saying like actually observe the feel that response yeah and see if it's a wide wide why react to this way to that feedback? Yeah, I think even any job starting out like there's a there's a feedback muscle you build just having and then there's the so there's the internal stuff but then there's the external feed. So once you've created put out a YouTube video, this goes out the book goes out, it was named feed, like, at what point how do you how do you take that how do you look at that? What's feedback that not necessarily like you can you can't action on straight away because the books are really out there? Yeah.
Sorry, it's done. Do you all want Dre drops of the next one? I you just have to you can't take it all talk Can you know, you have to dig
If you think it's got merit, then take on board for improving next time. And if not just let it go. There's not, there's not really anything else we can do. And sorry, how do you set sort of goals or define success when it comes to publishing a book?
The number one goal for me was to be really happy with what I put out. And I actually am. I really am. And it's funny, like as a creative person. I don't know if you guys agree, but it's really hard to then consume the thing that you've created back again, like how often you've edited an episode. Do you listen to it again? Yeah. Yeah, we've done it for that very reason. Because we can't like you can't remove yourself from the theme. So the fact that I'm so happy with this and I could happily like sit down and look through it again and read it again is a huge win for me. I've had overwhelmingly positive feedback, maybe the people who didn't like it it just to get designed.
Yeah, I mean, oh, that's just like that.
All maybe that just means it's hitting the right audience. It's reaching the right people. And I guess with any type of art, it's not for everyone. Yeah, it can't be for everybody. So
yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting when you that thought of when it feels good for me. It doesn't matter because then but then you trying to analyse that thought to say, Is there something wrong with me thinking that it's great like that I feel good about it that I'm like, happy to rest here and not find like the next thing to make it a little bit better. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because then there's definitely things I would improve or change. But that doesn't. That doesn't stop me from being happy with the theme that I've produced, if that makes sense. If people have just finished a comms degree or they've done journalism, and they're trying to find a job. What does the market look like in 2020? It's a mess. Yeah, it really is. It's really tough. You know, the one thing I actually think I could have done without doing my degree, and just getting in to a public
And start working as an intern and kind of working my way out. I'm not. I'm not totally sure that you need a degree anymore. Yeah.
Media specifically, I'm obviously there are lots of industries where you really don't need this.
Just Just Web MD, is good in your section about robots and talks about so that future of works, probably having problem solving skills, problem solving skills and going anywhere creativity, empathy for other people. Understand knowing how to understand other people like those are the things that we're always going to need, no matter what the future of our kind of tech world looks like. Or at least that's what the experts say that I've read. Yeah. And it's the technical like aspects of things that will get replaced. understanding human mind and then being a writer, or working in media, like be doing a psychology degree. So it's even if it's like, no degree or a degree to the side that has
Added Value for if you wanted to work with people, you know, be a psychologist, the or you go the other way. It's like you incorporate that into the media landscape, which I think is quite intelligent. I think someone was telling us about a, there's a like so if you were to sit down with someone Someone asked for you get a coffee or whatever, and they say, I want to chat like I've just finished a degree and I want to be a journalist or I've got the skills, obviously saying, You fucked up.
You need to great
Yes, I how do you how do you frame those conversations for? Because I guess it like we've got a bunch of listeners who are in that position that have studied journalism or whatever, and they're out at the other end, and now they're like, now what how do I how do I do this? In terms of advice, I think the key thing is to read loads and consume lots of content which is funny because I know that's where
Kind of in this cultural moment now, where people are saying, oh, there's so much content, you don't need to constantly be consuming. Unfortunately, the media if you want to get into media, I think it is kind of important that you have your finger on the pulse of what's going on. And you learn so much that way. And then if your craft is riding you learn so much about be being a better rider by writing. Great work.
You writing all constantly, yeah, every day, because there's a big movement at the moment, like, you know, trying to read as many books. There's all these YouTubers who are like I read 100 books in a year. And then there's pushback on that movement now where it's like, it's not about Yeah, and there's also even the push. So like, so about speed reading. And now it's about like, it's like, yeah, it's a bit about the slow reading stuff. Do you fight like, when have you found that reading has been most productive for you? What sort of style is it? I like the long rates but you can't like sometimes I'll start something I don't anticipate to be
As long or as good or whatever on like the boss and the way to work and you get to destination damn now I've got a lot stop this. Wait till I go home read more of it on the way home then wait till I get home like that's just for Australia fiction or nonfiction. Usually nonfiction I'm going to be like nonfiction moment and everything's a moment.
Good I never called him a moment. Okay You've made me self conscious
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely at the moment that's that was that was the moment I love thinking about moments. There's so many moments. We're in like four moments at what like the veganism thing the game changes thing that's a moment. Yeah, climate change definitely a moment. Yeah feminism. I mean yeah, I mean that's a moment. I mean this is like forever moment type of thing, isn't it? We could say that surely this movement past the moment was
It's moment to moment. Yeah, yeah. You said they only have one moment it was just have one moment and then you like go to the next month.
So the book reading moment you're in the nonfiction. Yeah. non fiction. And so it's not just it's not just writing books, right. Like I think to go kind of back to that conversation about getting into media. It's reading
other people's work. It's writing articles, listening to podcasts. Yeah, writing books as well but all kinds of all kinds of content so that you kind of know what's happening and what people are thinking and the trends different than moments. Not probably not probably the same thing. You good at switching off or are you terrible? You just Yeah, I was scrolling was on delays have night mode. new phone? No, I know you're not supposed to look at your fine in bed either.
should not be doing.
This is a great argument for that. It's like that Doc, the whole dog
They're loaded nicely well I'm going to bed Yeah, but not everyone's got the same problems yes I have a sleeping problem like I go to sleep five and just get into bed and just go to sleep Yeah.
consumes yeah I listen to audiobooks. Okay, so I like have the audio book on that is false like, say that kind of like let your mind ease out of Yeah, I heard Sandra selling on a podcast saying that's what she does to stuff that's good enough for Sandra.
Don't try that. Yeah. Where does mindfulness play a part in your life would or does it not? I'm trying to make more time for it.
I'm trying to have a mindful moment. It's really hard is really difficult. We tried any apps or anything. Yeah, I tried the comment for a while when I was having a bit of a rough time and they've got like the breathing counter on that. Which is like you know, you counts you in like breathing and then hold for two and then breathe out and you just do that for as many cycles as you need to and that was kind of good that
Then they unlike cheapskate when it comes to apps, so lots of the features and now paid features nozzle. Yeah. So how I don't really need to be that mindful, get rid of this. There's YouTube content just search meditation YouTube, and it's just hundreds of hours. What do you spend money on? Because I think that there's like this definitely
the type of person who's like very good at like saving and all that sort of thing. Do you have anything that you have unlimited budget on, on what you'd spend? At the moment, most of my money is going back into marketing the book, growing z feed, which is really exciting. But in terms of like, the fun stuff? I think I probably spend on socialising more than anything. Yeah. Eating. Yeah. coffees eating out, going out for a drink on a weekend with people I love. I don't really buy loads of stuff. Yeah. minimalist. Oh, yeah. So I was trying, trying, trying. So I was thinking
About brands, and media and influence, and all that sort of thing. I guess you've you've sort of played in both both rounds, like from, like, you know, dealing with brands and things like that. There's obviously their call out culture that's happening now or the kancil culture. Where do you think it's going to land with with all of this stuff are we going to get to because if things aren't black and white, I worry that if we start calling shit out, then everything in our worlds just going to start to collapse, we're going to be like, are like, well, this thing, like, this manufacturer is actually doing this thing as well. So we can't do this and can't do that such a fine line between kancil culture, cold out culture and encouraging transparency, which is what I think I like to think that people's hearts are in the right places. And the reason they're being so vocal is because they actually do want to bring that transparency forward. But I mean, I guess it's about finding the right way. I actually think it's more in the response. I think
You get cold out, or whatever. If you respond well people seem to be happy with that. I mean, if you kind of dig in Yeah, or don't take out I don't know what you mean but then the conversation or the the discussion discussion could be around the need for the person to even respond like Justin Bieber has been called out for not talking about what's happened I was pissed off at this article I read he's been called out by and everyone in the comments were so it was just obviously Why are you making the comment? Because it's usually
good indication of, of where people's heads are at based on the headline. So this was like, Justin Bieber not talking about the fires. Not good enough. It's like, as and then it was about him having 20 cars, all these it's like, the kids I'm gonna really spot a story keeps in America like yeah, sure, you know, but you can pull any ideas
Like a he's to was here he's made all this money from here but if it like if he doesn't want to donate like I don't know how much we can hate on the guy when he might not have been thinking about in the first place that like didn't really get any traction right so then is it just like is it really is he really bang hold on what is that what is yeah exactly I don't know the answer
is one of his main sponsors is a big bank that have been funding a whole bunch of
search for fossil fuel and all that stuff. So they they have clients that use their bank and services debt services to use that money to then go and try and source this stuff. And then hey, this guy's I just making money as a tennis player. Like it's a weird spiral right? And then the people being called out about specific things. People like the guilt associated with the the sort of Ricky ricochet effect
Active like, someone, someone gets sunburned and feels real guilt around it. And I don't know how positive that is. But then I also like, what's the other side? The positive hypocrisy, I guess is hypocrisy as well. Like, how do we like so when?
Am I being a coward? Because I don't want to call out things because I know that I'm not perfect. And there's probably shed that I can be calling out for because it's uncomfortable for me. But then do you let it be worse for other people by not? That's like kind of the argument, isn't it? It's like, Do I not? Do I not say anything? Because I don't want to be that's the whole me to thing, right. Like, in a lot of ways. It's like the, by not talking about it, you're creating a bigger issue when it's like everyone has a responsibility. I think this is something we're kind of working through to get to maybe a more nuanced way of dealing with it all. But right now, it's all quite new. And everybody has a platform now to say that pace and to kind of have that loudspeaker to call someone out if they really wanted to, whereas, you know, 20 years ago, you didn't really have
DJ as an individual person, so maybe we're all just working out a little bit to get to a more elevated understanding of when it's appropriate and when it's not. And so how do you have the conversation?
So on the call out culture type of stuff, how do we actually so if it is black and white, if it is seen as black and white, it seems like it can be hard to have a conversation around a lot of these things. Because it's like, if you're not with us, you're against us.
How? How do you deal with that? I don't know the answer. So I'm asking you just keep you just have to keep having the conversation. Are you someone that's not cold that you cold it? Have you actively been involved in calling people at all part of that sort of culture? Gosh, I don't think so. But maybe like I don't remember and someone's gonna
listen to this and then call me out this beginning when I called you remember riding the Justin Bieber article.
What about from a journal? I remember when I worked at
Southern Cross on stereo, I was a digital content producer. Yeah, I was well, I was I was calling someone else. Now I just for whatever reason, like every digital content producer had to write for the time was called the dirt. Which is, yeah, it's like the, you know, click by click was around. So what would happen is like the head person at the dirt would say, this is what Perez is writing about, and sort of basically take the jump on that jump on that not something and so I'll just always like Lindsay Lohan's added again, how we surprised by just been absolutely
sorry, it was yet web guy. Josh. The funny thing was that website, Josh, when they built the new CMS, I think everyone became web.
Yeah. And so there was an article I think that it was, I think it was like a blog post about a cake like a layered cake that went viral. And it was
Josh, which I will I didn't rise it right, but you took it. Yeah. And so I just, I don't know, I just worry about all this stuff and whether it's going to actually worry about the people who are calling out the other people that it could potentially be.
It could have negative consequences. Like for instance, like our friends shameless they doing I pledge, great initiative around scum, skincare and melanoma, all that sort of thing is that seeing partnership with cold time on melanoma?
And so, something like that, which is a really input, like we need to do all this sort of thing we need to be educating. It's only it's like wear sunscreen. It's only positive. Yeah, yeah. And so the So, say, at the moment, they're sort of like, make it clear and these people are
promoting accelerators or oils or things that uh, basically fucking people up from a cancer point of view, you know, like, it's like
But then I wonder I'm like, okay, use alcohol as an example. So I'm like alcohol
is a carcinogen. If you go to California, and you go to a bar, there's like signs that says, you know, on this premises, there's like, you know, carcinogens or whatever, because of the alcohol. And so I was like, okay, so if alcohol is a carcinogenic causes cancer, what then if we're, if we're say a podcast and doing an alcohol brand deal, so if we have, you know, we're at Moondog or whatever, we're doing a B deal. If we start saying, hey, the this brand over here has a product that is causing cancer. Where do we set us as a position in regards to that the alcohol side of things? I don't know like the brand partnership. Yeah. So if I'm doing a brand partnership with an alcohol brand, how to saying like, if you want
Then. So if we add another few to Colette so if we were to do the using the I pledge example,
if we were to then call out a brand around the skin cancer type stuff, do we then also need to do a complete order of every single brand and say, actually, the three or four brands have all had these issues in regards to ethics? Yeah, I think sorry. I think you have to, if you want to then stand up and say something about it down the track. And so how to, like, how did I use an example? Like how to Michelle manzara with what they're building because they've got this great community, they're built, they've built something that
were that were they a critical about different things, combining that with brand deals, doing doing that type of thing? How do we how do we navigate this stuff? Very, very carefully. I think it's a
are probably part of the brand's needing to understand
that it's up to them to also listen to the conversation and make some of those changes if it's in cold form you know what I mean? Like I don't know
there's an argument to say that brands have a great deal of power to change how our society looks and and how actually it works on par with governments because of the amount of influence that I carry with people. So if we are then encouraging them to kind of make those positive changes and that could be a good thing and if you have party with those brands through brand partnerships to have that conversation maybe they should use it and so like something like alcohol like Where'd it Where do you think that fits? It's a hard like I don't know I really do I really about it right and I'm like torn because I'm like, I am not completely understand where Michelle Owens are coming from with I pledge completely and because
And what and you know, as I speak to bring my girlfriend about and she's like, I like this person like died of melanoma or this person think like there's real stories that are emotional and connected to this cause.
And I guess I just look at it from a slightly different framing not having heard those conversations and thinking and then I go down a rabbit hole of on Cancer Council website, how many people have died of alcohol, but cancer is caused by alcohol? That question is almost is there is there there is arguably a responsible way of enjoying alcohol. So is there a responsible way of suntanning?
And if not, then that's kind of the line so it's a black and white so it's the Yeah, because I guess that's the you'd have to know how to culture some of its like culture as well. Right? Which is like are we uncomfortable as a nation or society to call out alcohol as being a thing because
It's what we do on a Friday night.
How does it go if you wanted to go to tanning products that don't require the sun, but continue the cultural view on tan skin? What's the whole ending of a cat? Like, if we're really going to go all in? Wouldn't we just say, actually like, the, the perception to your point of having a 10 is an aesthetic that we want to bet this is now where like, take down the beauty industry. That's where that's where this conversation goes. Because it's like, why do you even need to look like you have a 10 even though Yes, 10. And so where do we where does it sit in regards to?
How can we ethically be involved in something like the beauty industry, or have connections with the alcohol industry and still create a difference? How do we work out like do we just allow that sometimes
Things are like there is hypocrisy and we can be hypocrites, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do something else. Yeah, I guess so. Like, you just always got to try and do better and those are really individual decisions like if you know if you guys then decided that you know you weren't gonna do you weren't going to create amazing video content for alcohol brands ever. Like that was a line in the sand that you wanted to draw which were happy with Moondog partners.
establishment. Really good. Yeah, I had a beautiful one sample
but I just started on set but this is the thing but like bacon might be that causes cancer to everything fucking causes cancer, everything will kill you. And so I guess that's the point is it's just like, I just know where the line is like there is an uncomfortable nature I have to that content that's going out there. And I feel like I'm a bit of a fuckwit like I should be just having this conversation with them because they're our friends.
But the I struggle or feel uncomfortable with the calling out of people.
Especially individuals like influences or would be more happy if it was just a movement to change the way that we think about things without actually saying to the call out that these brands are doing it wrong. And so I think that by saying these brands are doing it wrong, so you just want the public pressure without naming the brands or the individuals to then just have enough public pressure around the topic to get them to change their ways kind of organically. Yeah, I don't think if you're willing to call someone out, be ready for that someone to call you out. Because it is it's like a throne, the first arrow Yeah. and be ready to be wrong, like, instance, but you might not be right. Yeah, you talked about transparency, that I think it's important because if you're not worried about being called out on anything, then it's all you're willing to have a conversation to see. Yeah, fuck that right there. That's pretty. That's pretty powerful. In terms of just owning it. Yeah. And moving on.
Instead of shifting your belief, like if we know that beliefs are malleable, we can shift them, you know, for worse or good, hopefully for the good. It's like that is a powerful thing to acknowledge and have these kind of conversations and write this kind of a book like it's, it all contributes to like understanding and this being you showing the different sides is like actually a zoomed out macro level on here's a problem. There's a few different options. There's different ways that you can kind of look Yes, yeah. And so yeah, so where does critical thinking and around these types of things like I guess I were becoming more and more savvy from a media point of view? Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I find like it's a hard time like I think that it's, it's a it's a bit of a pain. It's a painful time for a lot of people because there's
there's so many different thoughts and things that are happening that we're having
To put it through our filter system, and then there's also the thing of saying, okay, we, I believe this thing to be true. But does that mean that I have to take this home with it? Like do we? Do we have to take true this as a whole? Or can we pick from here and pick from
the cherry picking? Me? I don't know if you can, but you have to have a really broad understanding of like, in its entirety to know whether or not the bits that you are cherry picking actually do hold true in the breath. What about disagreeing with friends? So for instance, like we haven't talked about the shameless thing I've been thinking about it
yeah, I'm just like cola. Can we get this as a snippet?
Maybe it's good for brand maybe finally will fucking get on that Apple podcast listener of the year or some shit?
Yeah, no, but like how like you can disagree with friends. You can have different opinions and then I worry about things.
Like nepotism? And yeah, like, how do you think that this is all going to be navigated? Where as we're producing more content, people are becoming sort of their own media brands? How can they be considering all of these elements? I think it's, it's going to be a great thing because you'll realise the differences within the people in your own circle. I know I certainly have a tendency to think that all of my friends and my loved ones think very similarly to the way I do. But if you really have the conversations with them around like these topics, it's not it's definitely not the case. And then that is almost a strength to know that someone that you really care for and you like, and you love and respect and all of those things, is on like the other side of the fence. That's quite powerful because it then takes it away from being like bad and good, left and right. And it's like, no, this is just something that people think and understanding who
Why is really important? I mean maybe we think that if someone doesn't get to our line of thinking around a certain topic veganism they won't get it because you need to understand what I understand for you to make the change to make the radical change which I don't think it's that simple. I don't think the line is that clear but the argument even on the skin cancer thing is it's like you look at it you can put what you want people to have skin cancer like he fucking you and you're like these people are dying like go to pay them back like a fucking like, but then I guess that it's it's interesting around picking different nuances within something. And I guess that that can even happen with news where or even say for instance, the the bushfires there's been sort of the be pushback on
the media talking about like arson as being as being a factor. And so my initial thoughts was like, I like
If some of its awesome, like, like, should we be report like, maybe we should be reporting on it. But then it seems like the conversation around us and he is saying as a direct threat or impact to the popular or correct narrative around climate change, it's like a it's a tool use, is this a tool that's being used to detract from the bigger, more important, and so if it's if it's true, but it is a distraction from a larger narrative that were on board with?
Should we be suppressing that truth? I think it's about suppressing and Isn't it just giving it it's right? Like not all things have equal weight? Yeah. Not not all sides of the debate are equal. And so I guess by focusing on the awesome thing, it takes away from the
storm that's happening in regards to trying to create change within
Government and things like that. Yeah. And shifting people's focus on to the thing that really probably needs all of our focus at the moment. Yeah, with this other thing that's like kind of happening on the side in a much smaller way, but blowing it up to same as big as like as if it's a 5050 split. Yeah. When they're not contributing, as I understand in an equal way. Yeah. Because I guess it comes down to because I like getting in the nitty gritty of stuff. And so I guess like the the slight concern is that there's a
when it feels like dogma, so for instance, taking the example of the climate change stuff being like, no, we're not talking about this specific thing, because that's being overstated or whatever.
I stopped then worrying about like, oh, like, why we hang on like, we're all for like freight. Like, we're trying to, like work this stuff out. Like, isn't there a complete sort of holistic approach to these types of things?
No, I just, I didn't know the answer. I didn't even like Haley won. Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of these really comes back to how the media presents and controls information. And not so much whether that is without getting into whether that's right or wrong thing to do. But more about whether people understand that that is how stories can be changed or represented in different ways. Because if people don't understand that, then that's when it becomes a little bit dangerous. Because if you if you take that same kind of idea, so if you know
the numbers of these bushfires that had been started by arson and the numbers that have been started by natural causes, and then what role climate change kind of played in exacerbating all of it, if you had all of that information tanned and you already knew it before you read the article about the Aston
then you're probably
Going to still have a pretty good grasp of what's happening. But if you don't have all of that information immediately to hand
and the first article you come across is saying, this is why it's happening. This is the absolute focus that we should have, and this is what we need to tackle, then the chances are that that's going to lead how you interact with all of the rest of the of the content and the information that's out there and kind of lead what you think what's going on in there. Yeah, that's the risky part. Because
we only have so much time in a day. You can't just we all go to work. You can't just sit there consuming content and try to figure out what's
real and what's not. I mean, we all want less bushfires, less cancer, all of these stats and we also want to do I think, like, the thing is to maybe this is part of it. So my thing is like we should be doing everything we can to me having renewable energy, we should be like, in my mind. That's like an
No brainer. And so part of it is like when I'm going on it with that filter,
then it feels like I can take some of that awesome news or whatever, as like a piece like a blip in the whole thing like one year, the buzzle where it but I guess that used in the wrong way or using it in a way to feed another narrative or a group of people who don't believe in all those things. That's where it becomes destructive. Yeah. And like the people in media we, we already kind of have these background knowledge. So it's so easy to, to fall into the trap of thinking like everybody comes to it with that same understanding. But people really don't. Yeah, people really don't. And that's kind of where getting that baseline of background information out there to me is really important so that, particularly young Australians can come to the news, which is by its very nature, it's new. It's not actually all of the contents context. It's not
background, it's just the newest piece of information. If they have a little bit of the background understanding it will kind of help them contextualise that for themselves, and decide what they actually think. And help them engage with those topics. That's the goal. Like I, I've been reading stuff about Iran and trying to learn stuff. I got all these books gronk Jake actually gave me a stack of books on Iran. But I think that like these things are interesting when you start saying, say news reports. And then you can see both sides. But you can see where agenda is playing a part of the role. Yeah, I think a good takeaway is be up for hearing someone who is completely convinced to the other side. If anything, it should inform if anything, if your argument has white, it should empower your but isn't. there be an argument, I think to people who likes a climate change sort of thing. Like I guess the left more open
Hearing stuff, but I think something with climate change, it's like, all that antivax type stuff. It's like, no, the science is that like, I'm not like it's, I guess we're starting to get to the tail end of things where it's like, No, these actual things. It's unproductive talking about whether climate change the thing or not, because we're talking about fact and fiction,
like, Is there an element of, of, I guess some, you know, we talk about dogma or things just like just being setting your ways or saying this is how things are. Is there certain things that where we need to do that, where we just cut it off? And yeah, we cut it off inside, okay, like, there's actually we're using different robots. We've got different games that we're playing, I'm using this thing, which is science and this and you're using this other thing? I think so. And maybe it's just that we're not there yet in the kind of current issues that everyone's facing, but I think if you if the goal is to change things for the better, there is at least a portion of
Those people who are maybe on the wrong side of the argument that you're still going to need to
convince basically for one of a better word and I think the best way of doing that is kind of finding that common ground and getting down to the Y so that you can hopefully show them something that just trigger something inside them to open up a worldview a little bit.
Some great concepts
in this book how to win every argument I'm after you get my 10 free session health plan after this combo
how to win every argument it's a great coffee table book as well but not know but perfect for the the modern hipster who doesn't have a big coffee table. Could small little snot, it's like a big fucking deal, which I'm sure a fashionable fashion wise and ethical there. On the other hand, if you're doing one of those 100 books in 2020 channel is a very good one.
Masha, Allah raid. Crystal Andrew, thanks for coming in. Thanks for having me. It's the daily talk show if you want to send any complaints, any call outs.
com. We said that as an alias. That's quite funny. Would you like to call it cold out? Maybe there is something that maybe we could do one call out in 2020 but I call somebody out Well yeah, we call someone out but I just want to check my sort of history to make sure that there's still a quick delay. Delay Yeah, if you archives on the Instagram before we go for any call and go Hi, guys. Yeah.
Today talk show Have a good one, guys.