Callum Sinclair On Doubling Down On Your Strengths

Callum: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 553.

Josh: We got special guest in the studio, Callum Sinclair from the Sydney Swans.

Tommy: You can clap too, clap.

Josh: I know you're—

Callum: otherwise, I've been known to clap for myself around the footy club.

Josh: So I was gonna say, otherwise, uh, outside of the Sydney Swans, from Elsternwick Primary School where we went to primary school together. Did, uh, you— what, how old are you? 20?

Callum: I'm 30. I've just turned the big 3-0, so I'm When's your birthday? 23rd September. So I've suddenly—

Tommy: 20th or 21st?

Callum: 23rd.

Tommy: 23rd.

Callum: So I've suddenly worked all things out in life as soon as I've turned 30. So it's, yeah, I actually don't feel any different. I feel great.

Josh: How's your body feel at 30?

Callum: Mate, it gets tougher every year, particularly with the mind is actually the one that ticks over all the time. But mate, not too bad, I think. Yeah, I've had a tonne of injuries over the career, mate, but surprisingly I've actually, actually had a nasty shoulder reconstruction literally about 5 months ago. So I actually missed about 4 months of football and it's actually in terms of my body, I shouldn't say this, but it's actually the best thing for me missing games and things like that. So at the moment quite good. But as a, as a coach once said to me, the tide can turn very, very quickly. So I'm sure one hit or One comment to my mind, things will change.

Josh: I don't want to hear you Debbie Downer. What are you fucking— Aren't you here for motivation? So you're the ruckman at Sydney Swans. Fuck, long way from Elsternwick Primary School where we'd kick the footy around the oval.

Callum: It was actually. I remember I was having a think about it yesterday, kind of, because actually when I first saw this guy, it was on YouTube. And so, you know, when you kind of look for something on YouTube and then an hour—

Josh: I'm clapping myself.

Callum: And then an hour later, you kind of go back. You find yourself looking at, I don't know, you might look at like a motivational thing and then you find yourself looking at cats with, I don't know. And then a video of you popped up and I was like, I think I went to primary school with this guy. I think he might have been a year, a year older than me.

Josh: I'm in the algorithm of the cats.

Callum: So when you go to the cat stream, I come up. Another backhanded compliment.

Josh: Funny storey though. I went round to Mum's place probably 4 or 5 months ago and I saw this like a sign on the door. I was like, mate, is Mum and Dad selling? I didn't know this, I hadn't spoken to them. It was like a real estate sign. It was like, had some sort of real estate on there. And I walk in and I was like, Mum, what's going on? She's like, no, Andrew Sinclair knocked on our door.

Tommy: This is your older brother.

Callum: And so what suburb are you in if you haven't realised?

Josh: Cheltenham. So down near where he works.

Callum: And so that's why I'm here. It's a plug for my brother to do. He's a door knocker.

Tommy: Did he convince them to sell?

Josh: No, but I thought it is a genius idea because he now has somehow asked Mum and Dad to leave the signs, leave a like, a real estate sign on the fence. And I was thinking, is this Andrew hoping that people would see it and go, I want that corner block because Mum and Dad got a corner block. And maybe they'll call Andrew to go, is that for sale? Are you guys selling that? So I think it's Andrew's sneaky, sneaky tactics.

Callum: So did he get the listing to your place?

Josh: No, he hasn't.

Tommy: They're not selling.

Josh: They're not even selling. He's just sort of, I think he's just, he's grooming.

Callum: So has he put the sign up?

Josh: No, it's like some sign. I'll have to take a photo of it. Give your brother a plug on our Insta, but it's like some sort of sign on the gate that just says the real estate agency.

Tommy: Like it could be for sale.

Josh: That's what I'm saying. People might be like, I wonder if it is. So your brother's sneaky tactics, I think they're working.

Tommy: Did you know that you were going to get into like professional sport?

Callum: Look, like, you know, we went to an Elstree primary which had this Auskick program. I think it was Vic Kick.

Josh: That's what it says.

Tommy: I mean, I went to Auskick, that means fuck all.

Josh: Vic Kick, and then it turned into Auskick.

Callum: Look, ideally, like, yeah, I had a father that played professional professional sport, and I had two older brothers that were like really, really into it. So it basically first started out as trying to impress your old man and impress your brothers, and to some extent it's still a bit like that. But yeah, to be honest, it was literally basically following in my father's footsteps. And then he used to run the Vic Kick program, the Auskick programme back then.

Josh: At Elstie?

Callum: Yeah, he was the guy that used to— basically the role was to get the megaphone and 'all children come meet me here and have a chat.' And so he'd divide all the kids up and into your ages and things like that. So I looked to him as like my hero and, you know, did all those kind of things. And from there you start playing juniors and things like that. But, but yeah, it's always been a massive focus on what I wanted to do. But yeah, there's been a lot of hurdles and things in the way. But, but yeah.

Josh: What school did you end up going to after for high school?

Callum: Corfu Grammar.

Josh: Corfu Grammar. Private school twat. I'm in St Pia until I went to a public school and then I was a public school twat. But like becoming an AFL footy player in Australia is like, it's the elite sport most young men want to achieve, right? It's like, I remember heaps of mates that want to be AFL club, be an AFL player. Are you supported through the high school years or is it just some pipe dream? Like, are they actually thinking, oh, this kid's actually got it?

Callum: Or as in, like, as in what, like the people around you?

Josh: Like when you're in high school, like, are people around you going, yeah, I know, but also make sure you become an accountant because you might not make it.

Callum: Well, like the high school I went to and look, stuff it, I'll say it now, I'm 30 and do what I want. But you know, they kind of put, you know, high school footballers on a bit of a pedestal and you're kind of told, you know, with things like social media and stuff these days, like the good players are pretty well identified and you start to kind of, you know, look, it gives you some street cred in the, you know, in the lunchroom, in the, Lunchroom. Who has a lunchroom? Well, that's what I'm saying.

Tommy: I went to a public school, so I'm like, fuck, they have lunchrooms.

Josh: Cafeteria.

Callum: But yeah, like, yeah, you get— there's a lot of players that get identified at that age and you start to go, oh, you know, this guy's going to play AFL, he's going to get a tryout. That didn't actually happen to me. I was actually playing reserves footy at school, so my pathway to playing AFL was a little bit different to a lot of the guys at school. But, um, you know, it's like social media and probably stuff like you guys doing, like 17-year-old kids that play, you know, junior sport are like celebrities now. So I can imagine it'd be a lot, you know, a lot worse now. And not worse, but, um, a lot different.

Josh: You're almost getting, um, clout before you've hit the big time.

Callum: Yeah, absolutely. Like, the guys that just got drafted who were 18, so we just had a draught in the— about 2 or 3 weeks ago. So we had about 5 18-year-old players come to the club. And I went on just actually on— I was on the flight just over here before I come across a video, um, the top 10 picks straight after it. They're only 17, we're doing a suit fitting at one of the, um, down Chapel Street, amazing suits on and stuff like that. And I'm like, I'm still buying me, uh, me boots at Rebel Sport. I don't know what's going on. So, um, but yeah, the, the tides definitely change with how, um, you know, players are perceived and how they're prospected at a young age. But yeah, it's, um Yeah, you literally, I reckon from now when you're 15, you're being scouted. There's going to be videos about you online and you can see who's getting picked and who's going to be a decent player.

Josh: But more pressure, right? It's like almost have your personal brand dialled in, make sure you can talk to a camera, have your TikTok. Yeah, yeah. Make sure not too edgy, but just edgy enough so you get the followers. You went through 3 draughts before you nailed it.

Callum: Yeah.

Josh: What does that mean? I mean, what are you doing? Is that like playing a game and you lose each time and then the final one you win?

Callum: Is that what it's kind of?

Tommy: It's a bit—

Callum: I don't know how it kind of— if you guys know how it works, but absolutely not. Okay, so when you, um, when you get to get play— to get on an AFL list, you need to get drafted, which basically means that, you know, you pay $60, and which you guys can do if you want to do it. You can pay $60.

Tommy: So we could be in the draft?

Callum: Yeah, I think it's $60.

Josh: Um, so sign us up, Sibs.

Callum: So, and you put your name in the ballot, and if you're lucky enough, someone will call your name out. But, um, and then you're on the team. Yeah, you're on the team. Yeah, it's that simple. 60 bucks. So I think over 1,000 people, um, I think over 1,000 people, you know, put their name in and pay, but only probably between 70 and maybe 85, maybe 90 get picked up.

Tommy: And yeah, so what's the picking process then? Because obviously there's a step between you get the 1,000 people Then surely it's not just like a raffle system. Surely it's like, okay, can Kel actually play?

Callum: Yes, you have to. So clubs have got, you know, 5 or 6 recruiting staff now and they, you know, like I said before, they're looking at you from when you're 15. And, you know, and the good thing about what happened to me is you can draught players who are over the age of 18 who have, you know, might have played State League for a while. So you see a lot of guys these days who are drafted at 23, 24, 25. But my personal situation was, yeah, I didn't really get on the radar of AFL clubs until I was probably about 20 years old. So my first 2 years out of school. So usually you get drafted, majority of players get drafted at 18, but a lot of the 2 years I was kind of playing local football and from there I was playing for Old Corfield Grammarians.

Tommy: Yeah.

Callum: And which that's not even like a part of the VFL, like a suburban league.

Tommy: Okay.

Callum: I was playing Division 2 in that.

Josh: It's what a lot of pissheads do. But you were just taking it seriously. Yeah, I know a bunch of people that were playing.

Callum: I did enjoy myself back then. That was actually probably the funnest year of football I've ever had.

Tommy: Is that what— so, you know, like Favola goes off to like country towns, you see that, get paid by 6 grand or whatever. What's the deal? What was that?

Callum: Well, someone like him would probably— he finished his AFL career and still had amazing talent. He's an entertainer, he's an unbelievable footballer. So, you know, a lot of country teams, they kind of say, oh, well, why don't you come and play for— play 3 games for us for the year? You know, literally the whole town will turn up. You can you know, you get free beers after the game. It's a big event. And, you know, and that him, I'm not sure the figure, but he might be paid a few thousand bucks to play or get a sign-on bonus or something like that. And then from there, yeah, I think there's a common thing. They might take a percentage of what the, of the tickets they sell at the gate. So a bit harsh for community football.

Tommy: And so you did two, so you did two years. So you're 18, you enter the draft. No luck. Is that based on—

Callum: No, I didn't even enter the Draft 18, so I wasn't even like— I was literally just playing local football because that's what I just thought I— that's what I thought I—

Tommy: What did you think you were going to do? So were you having a gap year or—

Callum: No, so I finished school and went to university, went to Deakin Uni, got a decent enough score to do that. And look, I always wanted to play AFL, but I literally started from— I go, all right, well, how am I going to do this? So I literally started from Division 2 local football.

Tommy: That sounds like an outlier sort of approach, like given that everyone, like you get picked at 15 or whatever. And were you sort of, when you're playing junior footy, were you the, like, the best player on the team?

Callum: I reckon I was up until about 12, and then, and then there was a thing called puberty.

Josh: I mean, I thought I was the best player on the team up until about 12. Yeah, but then the realization—

Callum: I can literally remember the first game when I actually realised there was a thing called puberty.

Tommy: Yeah.

Callum: So I literally finished like under-12s and then you have like your 6-month break and you play cricket and tennis and things like that. And then I came back for the— we have like one practise match and I never ever forget coming back and I'm like, yep, I don't have to do any work. I'm just going to come back and play well. And there was a guy, I was lining up in the ruck and there was a guy looking at me and I swear to God he was 30.

Tommy: I had a beard.

Callum: He had this like amazing, like delts and lats and like biceps. I'm like, oh my God, this guy's the scariest guy ever. And I literally did not touch the ball for about 3 years.

Josh: We were speaking about that. There was always one kid when we were young that just became a Goliath.

Tommy: Puberty early, had a goatee at 9.

Callum: Yeah. And they, you know, and I'm, I get really hung up on this kind of stuff, but they were always the guys that got picked for all the representative teams. So they might not have been the most skillful, like, you know, they might not even touch the ball. But, but perceptions, reality, that they looked like they could do something.

Josh: It's like picking a young tall kid to go and try out for basketball stuff just because he's got the tall bit nailed and good, okay at basketball.

Callum: Exactly.

Tommy: Were you obsessed with the whole puberty thing? Like, were you like, when am I gonna grow up? Because I remember, honestly, yeah, the only, the only time I ever prayed as a kid, I remember seriously, like, I was like 11 years old in my bed saying, please God, just give me pubes. Like, that was the only thing that I ever wished for. Like, it's so weird what we wish for.

Callum: I think we should catch up for a coffee and talk about our issues.

Tommy: But now I've got a fucking hairy back. I reckon you're over the top. Yeah, went too hard, dude.

Callum: Honestly, I actually did think like that. Like, you know, and going to a high school where there was a thing called girls there, that made things really different. And they always liked the It's like a therapy session. Yeah, yeah, I'm bringing up all the old shit. And they kind of, you know, like the guys who, uh, who were big.

Josh: When— how tall are you now?

Callum: Uh, 6'7".

Josh: 6'7". When did you get to 6'7"? Was that—

Callum: I reckon I, or how can I— finished at about 21.

Josh: Okay, so you're still growing. Fuck, I mean, this is the thing that you— and that's— so it probably serves you that you started AFL when you're 20 or got in the draught when you were 20. Because you're closer to being fully formed.

Callum: Yeah, I think so. Like, I think, you know, you see a lot of guys, particularly, uh, key position players like myself, that, you know, they, um, excuse me, uh, they'll play it, you know, they'll come in at the age of 18 and before you know it they're 25 and they've played 7 years in a pretty brutal, brutal game. So I didn't really play consistent AFL football until I was probably about 25, to be honest. So I kind of feel like, um, my age might say that I'm in the late kind of category of my career, but, um, Like you said, I reckon those 3 or 4 years actually might have saved me a little bit.

Tommy: There's a weird thing happening at the moment. I think it was This American Life did a whole episode around human growth hormones in kids. And basically, like, when you're, uh, like, if you're super well off or whatever in the US, there's families who are going saying, hey, my kid's like short. They're like, oh, they're not that short, but they're just trying to get human growth hormones so their kid fucking gets real big.

Callum: That can't actually be a thing.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's a huge thing.

Callum: Yeah.

Tommy: Kids going on human, like, especially in sort of the real top tier of society where that it can cost them up to $400,000. But they basically go to the doctors or whatever and say, I'm worried that my kid is, uh, you know, too small. But it turns out that like they're actually not that small. Anyways, I thought it was quite interesting.

Callum: All right, well, my partner, um, she's actually, uh, confessed to me also that she was a late developer. So I might get their details for our children one day.

Josh: So yeah, I mean, you could, you're old man. Your brothers are tall.

Callum: Brett, he's tall. Yeah, so I think Brett, uh, Brett's, uh, he, he's bald. Uh, very, very bald. Uh, well, he's got the bald company.

Josh: Have you seen that? You've seen it?

Callum: It's actually relaunched. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, give it a plug, mate.

Josh: It's, um, thebaldcompany.com.

Callum: My brother, he went bald at a young age, like really. Um, he will— we always used to give him, um, a great deal of shit about it. He was very, very, um Yeah, he copped it quite well. He always made fun of himself, but it wasn't until probably he was, I reckon, about 30 years old that he actually realised that, hey, that actually, he actually took that really, really hard, like going bald at the age of like 22, 23.

Tommy: Yeah.

Callum: I'm not laughing about it.

Josh: Yeah.

Callum: And he, so he started this revolutionary thing, well, plans to be revolutionary called The Bald Company. And it's basically a fight against all those companies who, that claim that they can regrow hair and things like that. And he's a very, very funny man, my brother. So he's done a lot a lot of funny YouTube things and funny videos. He has a funny video that got a fair bit of traction. He put Vegemite on his head. Long storey short, he was saying, this is what you look like when you go get a hair transplant. So I'm sorry to you guys if you have done that, but he's very, very passionate about hair transplant.

Tommy: Have you, I mean, 'cause it's an interesting thing, like all these things like hair loss, like all these things that like guys care about, I feel like we don't talk about it that much.

Josh: Well, so you're one of 3 boys.

Callum: Yeah.

Josh: So am I, my eldest brother, He's going a bit bald. I don't know if he'll go completely bald, but it's definitely gone around, it's pushing way back. And then Mikey, my middle brother, same age as Brett, he's got bamboo hair.

Tommy: He's got an afro.

Callum: So Brett's philosophy is really like one of his big things that he talks about is that if it's going and it's like, people will go to, like he's done a lot of research, would go to the nth degree, they'll go pills, lotions, they'll do anything. If it goes, just get rid of it.

Tommy: It's like quitting before you fire.

Callum: It's like, there's a The big thing around, he talks about acceptance and moving forward. And he wrote, he actually, he's actually written a book. Yeah. He's written a book about it. He's so passionate about this.

Josh: Wouldn't have happened if you didn't bully him as a kid.

Callum: Yeah, exactly right. So what about scalp health?

Tommy: Cause I wonder about what my scalp would actually look like. Chapter 4.

Josh: Chapter 4.

Tommy: I can't tell if you're serious or not.

Callum: No, no, no. I'm being serious. This is the stuff that he talks about. And he actually has a thing on Facebook. Fashion, uh, a chapter on fashion.

Tommy: And he talks about— become a beanie. Like, I wear way more hats. I got told by, uh, a hairdresser— she asked if my dad was bald. I said yes. This is when I was like 13. She said, have all of the, uh, crazy hairstyles while you can.

Josh: Really? Yeah.

Tommy: I don't know, like, I mean, I'm what, 29?

Josh: Yeah. I mean, what's your old man?

Callum: Very bald. So, like, so me, me and Andrew have taken after my mother Carol. Beautiful head of hair. Yeah, it still goes to the same same hairdresser in Glenhuntly Road, Austin Week. Lovely. But Brett unfortunately got me old man's Jane. So it started off with a receding hairline and then that line just got really, really thin. And then on a holiday one day I got something to eat and came back and it was shaved all off. And he's never looked back. He actually looks so much better.

Josh: Yeah, I think he looks great. Like until you got to own it. If it goes, you got to own it.

Tommy: Who's the tennis dude?

Josh: Agassi?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Used to wear wigs.

Callum: Yeah. He talks massively about how self-conscious he was and how much it affected his life. Like he said the amount of hours and time that he spent trying to actually hide, you know, his hair loss because he was ashamed of it. He said it. I think he actually came out and said it was really, really horrendous to go through.

Josh: So what about in the club? Any baldies at Sydney?

Callum: There are. Jared McVay was actually one. He was like, he just retired, but he was a captain. But he, he actually should be the pinup. Well, he accepted it very, very early in his life. But every now and then the group, they're just on a PowerPoint and they'll just you know, we're watching like a game vision and talk about a real serious conversation. And the next slide, this is a joke, I'll just put a photo up of when he had hair. Yeah, it's peroxide, real curly hair. Just horrible. Just horrible.

Josh: I think it's something like Nathan Jones from Melbourne. He looks great. Bald head.

Callum: Very shiny.

Josh: Very shiny.

Callum: Yeah, well, his brother just played for us actually, and he accepted it at a very, very young age.

Josh: His bro or—

Callum: Yeah, no, so his bro played for us. Zach, he's now gone to St Kilda. Last year. But, you know, he was going very, very early, and I reckon he accepted it at about 19 and just went really hard. Yeah, I'm talking about it like I'm this activist, but I've got a great head.

Tommy: It's privilege, white privilege, right?

Callum: I did say to my brother, I go like, because he's doing a massive relaunch, and he said, oh look, I'm thinking of doing all these events and things like that. I'm like, oh man, I'll host the event and MC it and I'll do a podcast.

Tommy: He's like, you're not bald, would you shave your head for it?

Callum: Oh God, no, God, no, I'm mentally unstable for that.

Tommy: Well, I did see a, um, you know, studies around high testosterone could lead to baldness. But then we as a group got our testosterone tested and, uh, I think I saw that.

Josh: Yeah, I didn't have mine through the roof, Cal.

Callum: What was the results actually?

Josh: Have you done yours?

Callum: You had a haircut recently, I saw that.

Tommy: Yeah, I got a haircut.

Josh: Yeah, the results.

Tommy: Yeah, uh, you were 20, 28 or something. I was 10, 10, and I was 15 or something. Yeah. And so the range was meant to be 10 to 35.

Callum: Yeah.

Josh: Which I mean, I don't even know, like yours would probably be 60.

Callum: Just, yeah, you've got a bit of a, not a dark past, but you have some sort of, uh, not dark, but you've, he's lived.

Josh: It's amazing I'm not bald. No, I took testosterone, uh, steroids, which that can make you go bald. It's like a hyper-testosterone within the system.

Callum: I thought it made you grow.

Josh: No, I don't know if it makes you, like steroids can make you bald. Definitely. There's a— and lots of taking lots of drugs can make you bald. I don't know, I've survived a lot. Like you said, I've lived, but I'm all good.

Tommy: Uh, high performance athletes, like, what's, what's the deal? Do you have to like care about everything, what you're eating? Is there that whole, you know, like, what— I don't know much, but like, you know, Essendon, all of a sudden, like, they had all the drug stuff. Is that—

Callum: can that accidentally happen, those types of things, where it's like, oh, I was taking this supplement and it turns out it's Um, look, I think from that, um, that, that situation, like, the AFL have actually come down on everyone hard, but they've actually, you know, put in a lot of policies and procedures and things in place. And, um, you know, I've actually got a lot of sympathy for a lot of the guys at the time. I actually, I couldn't, um, I don't actually know the details, and I'm sure I think it might actually still be going, but I've actually got a lot of sympathy for the playing group for, for kind of what that went through. But, um, look, I think now I think we're probably the lead, the I'm not sure if this is actually correct, but I know we're up there, that we're the most highly regulated league in regards to what you can and can't take. So, um, are you pissing in cups all the time then? Had one about 2 days ago. So yeah, so we have an illicit drugs policy which is, uh, from the AFL, which we have to abide by.

Tommy: So that means what, like no cocaine, no marijuana? Like, what can you have?

Josh: Zero fun?

Callum: Well, no, yeah, we have a policy where, um, The AFL, we have a, um, a 3-strike policy in regards to, um, uh, our— what we, um, in regards to illicit substances.

Tommy: And, um, that seems pretty lenient, don't you think?

Josh: So does that mean, say, if someone gets caught that they had ecstasy and it's in their system, that's one strike but we won't tell anyone?

Callum: Or, uh, yeah, like, there's a— they have a policy and guideline, and it is quite complex about what they go through. But we also have ASADA, which is basically every sporting code in, um in Australia has to abide by, and that's headed up by WADA, which is the World Anti-Doping Association. So that's basically out there to catch cheaters. But so yeah, so it's a pretty— they're very, very thorough. So, and you get tested, yeah, a fair bit throughout the year.

Josh: When you said the testing, I remember I was working at this gym, Chris Anstey, basketball player, came in. There was this guy just following him around. I was like, who the fuck are they? He's just drinking Gatorades, and it was the drug testers had knocked on his door that morning and he couldn't piss. He's like, I don't need a piss, I just—

Callum: they just hang around for the whole day.

Josh: And then they hung around.

Tommy: Is that literally what it was?

Callum: Literally the case. So I think, so when you get tested, they literally come up to you and they just say, hi, I'm Paul from ASADA and you're, you've been chosen for a drug test.

Josh: Where are you, Bronte, just getting the coffee?

Tommy: Or is it—

Callum: so ASADA can come to literally, um, literally anywhere. So you have to fill out your whereabouts, like your home address. It's not like, oh, I'm going down to get get some milk.

Tommy: Is there any like trolls? Like, could a troll— could I come in and be like, hey Kel, it's Josh from Asada here to take a sample? Do you reckon it'd be quite easy for a stranger to take your piss without you, uh, realizing?

Callum: I don't think so. I don't think so. They've got a lot of, uh, a lot of accreditation and things like that.

Tommy: Like, generally, what are you looking for though?

Callum: Badge? If I showed my Victoria's Drug Advice, they've got a kind of like a safari shirt and it's got, you know, a nice Australian emblem on there and like a white government agent. They've got a lanyard with a photo ID. And so you exchange IDs just to ensure everything's all good. So it's like the full-on like legal, um, legal process.

Tommy: Federal Police or something.

Callum: We actually know the people now because they— because I think we— they have a— you guys are in charge of these clubs of sport. And so like when they come in, I'm like, oh hey Bill, am I up today? I'm like, no, no, it's fine, okay, someone else. Beautiful. Um, but, um, but yeah, like the first time you do it is like the most confronting process ever. Like I was— oh God, like just having a shower in front of the boys when I first came. Yeah, we don't have heaps. You're right, you're right. And, but when they come, you're like, oh yep, yep, no worries. And it's literally like, you know, you stand there, you do all the documentation and your palms are sweaty and stuff like that. And, you know, usually to take a piss, it's not that hard. But are they watching you? Yeah, like ducks are down to your knees.

Josh: Are you turned around or are they looking at you?

Callum: No, they're looking at you. So ducks are Ducks are pulled down.

Tommy: What a job.

Callum: Yeah, I know. They just, um, and you need a lanyard and everything to do it.

Tommy: They try and make it seem all official.

Callum: This is a little bit fucked. And it's literally like you just see their eyes and they're just like, they need to see stream.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, they need to see point to point, which makes it even funnier when you're like, Bill, is it my day today?

Callum: Fuck off, Gal. Well, there's been storeys that guys have got like severe stage fright and it takes takes them like forever. Like, I've ever took me a few hours once because I was just so— I was a young man and I was just so paranoid about it that, um, and so, you know, so nervous to actually, you know, you know, I urinate in a trough every single day.

Josh: Yeah.

Callum: But when some guy is directly just honing in on your, uh, on your old fella, it can be, um—

Tommy: Do you mean, do you think that you're better at the trough now in the sense of like more confident? Do you think like you could go to a piss anyway?

Callum: Or does it have to be in a little plastic cup? To be honest, like, if I'm at the footy club, um, and then I do it all the time, I'm completely fine. But if I have to go to like a restaurant or an airport or something like that, I get massive stage fright. I don't know what it is, still get it.

Josh: Like, what is Bill doing to you?

Tommy: I'm actually have a big thing about white pants. I remember as a kid fucking shaking and then getting a bit of piss on my pants. On white pants? On like, yeah. And so now I'm fucking paranoid that if I wear light pants, that there's a potential.

Josh: I thought you said you were—

Callum: My partner called me doing that the other day.

Tommy: Really?

Callum: Yeah. What is that? I go, oh, I just, I just had some water. You just went to the toilet?

Josh: It's because people call others out.

Tommy: It's annoying, isn't it?

Josh: Ah, it's very annoying. Do you feel like what you do is a job, or, or are you just fucking lucked out and you got— I mean, not lucked out, but you got this thing that just every day is feeling like it's I'm just getting out to play.

Tommy: I think it changes.

Callum: I think it changes. I think when you first start out that you think it's, um, you don't. I reckon you're just like, oh my God, like, I'm getting a paycheck and a relatively good one for my age at the time. And then you start to— and then, but then I think when you start getting injuries and you start kind of, um, being part of this pretty high-pressure environment and you've got to worry about performance and you've got to— and now the The league is so— there's so much player movement. Like, you can get traded now, you can, you know, you can really get delisted at the end of every season quite easily. So I think as you get older and, you know, as the wick gets smaller and your career is only a short part of your life, I think it slowly does sort of become, become a job. But in saying that, I could imagine that, you know, you fast forward, you know, 10 years, I'm doing a different job. I'll look back and go, that wasn't really work, was it? But I think the physical side of the game really, really does take a toll. And then that you kind of think, oh, this is a really, really tough job. But I think, um, you know, to be in front of a desk every day on a computer or things like that, you— I'll look back at my career and go, oh, you know, was that really work? And things like that.

Josh: But I mean, you said that the mental thing is one of the harder things as you've gone on your career. And, and so maybe, I mean, that's, that's where high performance environments are stressful.

Callum: Yeah, they are.

Josh: You're putting yourself through.

Callum: Yeah, definitely. Well, you know, you have to perform, and then, you know, there's particularly in competitive sport, there's so much that goes into it, particularly our game as well. It's so extremely complex. But if you look at, um, look, if you compare professional sport and particularly AFL, and we're here in Melbourne and it's so, um, it's like religion down here, it's a little bit different to what it is in Sydney, but You know, if you guys work for a big company, you're probably only getting a review based on your performance once, maybe twice a year, maybe. But for us, it's— you, you're getting performed literally daily, and not just from your own coaching staff, you know, you're getting it from the public, the footy club as a whole, your peers. So the constant analysis, analysis of your performance, it's pretty full-on. And, um, but it's what you get paid to do. But, but there are— yeah, definitely there are some days where you're like, oh God, this is, this is pretty full-on and pretty tough. But I think, yeah, it's just the constant analysis. It's daily.

Tommy: If you came to our team and were in charge of coaching us, what would be some of the things that you would bring from a footy club culture into the Daily Talk Show?

Josh: Coaching in what respect? Like athletic coaching?

Tommy: No, no, coaching as I guess like performance. So that, yeah, the analysis the sort of like performance? Um, you don't need to know how to handball.

Callum: Some players can't, believe it or not. Um, but look, I'd probably— the big thing I reckon I'd say would be we talk a lot about fundamentals at the club. So believe it or not, you might, um, we literally do things like basic, basic drills around handballing, kicking, um, marking, and things like shepherding. Like, which you'd probably think, oh my God, I learned that stuff when I was doing Auskick. Like, we'd do land kicking, Auskick. But we kind of— I'd say if I could bring anything into you guys, um, would be nail the fundamentals of actually what makes up your game or your organisation and things like that and become really, really good at it. And I reckon another one would be it's very easy to pick on people's weaknesses and pick on, you know, areas they can improve on, but it's pretty hard to actually— I could ask you guys, like, what would you say your strength is?

Josh: My hair, the thickness out of the two of us.

Tommy: Yeah, man.

Callum: Yeah, the point is it's actually really, really quite hard to identify what your strengths are. Well, people don't naturally really like talking about it, and particularly in Australia, we're quite, um, that— what's that saying? The tall poppy syndrome. So when you talk about your strengths, it can, it can kind of be seen as sometimes a little bit, um, oh, you know, you're full of yourself. But that's what will make this thing work. That's what will make, um, daily talk show be really, really good. So it's quite easy to say, oh, you know, Tommy, you're not that good at that.

Josh: But do you think it's easy to put down on your strengths?

Callum: If I— that's what I'd say.

Josh: I love it. And so you think we gravitate, even in the football environment, people are looking at what they're bad at? That's easy to recall? I'm not good at this, or—

Callum: well, it's not necessarily looking at bad at, like, you know, it's— yes, like, you're in an environment, and to be good at anything, it's always about constant improvement. But I just honestly I think that, you know, everyone's there for a reason. And, you know, you, um, as an individual, you really need to work out why am I being picked in this side, or why am I doing what I'm doing? It's, it's because I believe that I'm good at this, and that's all. I think this guy's good at that, and that's actually really, really hard to identify. And I actually really, really struggle with it. Like, I'm, um, in terms of like talking about my strengths, I hate talking about it.

Josh: Strengths on the field or off-field, or both?

Callum: Like, I just think the whole concept of talking about what you're good at. It's just this thing in our culture where it's a little bit, um, yeah, people just think you're, you know, a bit full of yourself.

Josh: But, um, tickets on yourself.

Callum: Yeah, but, but that's the reason that you will hopefully be really, really good at something. It's very easy to pick on something you're not good at.

Tommy: So does the team, like, does that dynamic incorporate that? Like, it— like, what is the daily thing, or is that more a personal thing that you've identified?

Callum: More of a personal thing, but literally we always talk about, um, at the end of the day, when you go out in the field or you go out in the training, you literally have to play to your strengths. So if you're, um, you know, I'm never ever going to be the quickest guy on a football field, and I'm 6 foot 7, I'm 100 kilos, I'm not going to be, um, you know, chasing Cyril Rioli down a wing and catching him. That's just never ever going to happen.

Josh: Have you ever given it a crack?

Callum: I, I, I played against him in a, uh, in a school game once, and, um, I, I, I took a mark and I very, very stupidly played on He was right behind him. And I just, I'll never forget, like, I got about 10 metres and I just looked and there he was, just like, and then I looked again and he was just like in my face and I just, I just handballed and threw it away. But, um, but yeah, what I'm talking about is basically, yeah, every player that, that, um, that plays for us, or we literally say to them, you, yes, you have to know the fundamentals of the game, you've got to know the game plan, you've got another strategy, but at the end of the day what it comes down to is you playing to your strengths. And that's what will make you play well.

Tommy: What about, I guess, a misalignment of roles and strengths? Do you ever have someone who's really good at kicking goals in the backline? This is my footy talk.

Callum: Yeah, I guess not many defenders kick goals, mate.

Tommy: But that's what I mean. So like, I guess if you've got someone back, fullback Hawthorn, like, so say if someone was like, is there anyone in the backline saying my strength is kicking goals?

Callum: Um, not necessarily, because they're put down there for a reason. Yeah, it's because they're, um, ideally— or we're in a lot of trouble if that's happening. But, um, yeah, they'll be down there, be— they'll literally be a defender because they're incredible at, you know, setting up the defensive shape of our team. And, um, their, their ideal strength is to, um, put away the best player and make sure that they don't touch it.

Tommy: What do you think about all-rounders people who are good at a bunch of things, good about everything in life or in football. What's the difference?

Callum: They frustrate me. A lot of people that are, um, yeah, well, that can be kind of a, um, I guess that can kind of be a little bit of a curse as well because you might not have a real set kind of role and things that you kind of, um, a real clear value of what you bring to your team or your organization. But, um, yeah, like, there'll be worse problems to have, I could imagine.

Josh: I mean, the footy thing is you're all got your position, you're briefed in as the ruckman, you know exactly what you have to do. Are you told to not kick goals like as a ruckman?

Callum: Uh, no, no, no. I think, I think there's a like a— I'm very passionate about, about ruckman because I think they— there's this, um, old thing that, oh, ruckman are these tall, silly, dumb guys and all they can do is stand there and just tap the ball and lumber around. But, but no, I think you try and get as dangerous and that's how you win games is kick goals. So yeah, no, that was an old thing. It was— there used to be this old thing about ruckman. Yeah, there was like, just stand in the middle of the ground, don't touch anyone, don't talk to anyone, just stand in the middle of the ground and just go from stoppage to stoppage. But, but as the game changes, that ruckmen are so bloody quick these days, it's hard for me to keep up.

Josh: How many Ks are you running a game as a ruckman?

Callum: Uh, you'd probably range between, yeah, like 12 to 15K a game. 15Ks a game is probably when you're, um, yeah, something's wrong. You, you're constantly chasing. But, um, but yeah, you usually— the running side of the things I don't really find necessarily that kind of difficult. Um, there's a lot of other things, more the, the combat stuff, which a lot of boys kind of— that, that's the stuff that ties you down. Like if you keep hitting the floor and getting back up in doing general exercise. Like, we all hate those exercises at the gym where you, um, if you're doing F45 or whatever you do, that you go, all right, down to the floor, up, down.

Josh: Yeah, burpees.

Callum: That's hard. Yeah, getting up and getting up and down off the ground is pretty hard. And try doing it when someone's pushing you down.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, the— for people who aren't familiar with Australian football or things like that, when I played as a kid, uh, oranges at halftime was a big thing. You'd have oranges halftime. Does that translate to professional?

Josh: You're asking if he still has oranges?

Callum: I'm glad you brought this up. You know that's been banned in junior football?

Josh: What?

Tommy: Really?

Callum: What? Oranges has been banned. Cutting oranges.

Tommy: What's the point?

Callum: Because the acidity is really bad for kids' teeth.

Josh: Ah.

Callum: And but on that, they have—

Tommy: What about sour straps at the canteen?

Callum: But on that, they hand out, I don't know if they still do it, but for a long time they said no to the oranges, but then they would say, oh, and today our best player is, here's a Big Mac voucher for Josh.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Callum: No, it's incredible that you can't even cut oranges for a kid at halftime anymore.

Tommy: That's upsetting.

Callum: Another thing, there's a primary school in Sydney that I heard of, they've banned ball sports at recess.

Josh: Why?

Callum: Because someone got hit in the head.

Tommy: Well, so what sort of— I mean, I was actually the sports manager in primary school.

Callum: The PE teacher wanted you to get the balls because he couldn't— the PE teacher couldn't be bothered doing it.

Tommy: Well, so because what happened was they had sports monitors which were selected by the students I didn't get a position. I was really keen. And so the PE teacher, she gave— created a new role called sports manager. And I created a system in which people would pay a dollar and they would get a key ring with their details on it. And if they wanted to borrow a ball, I had a board with a hook. And so it's a basketball, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I then put numbers on all of the balls And then so if they came and got a ball, I'd say, okay, you've got ball number 4, give me your key ring. I'd then put it on the hook.

Josh: Anything to get out of exercise.

Tommy: Then every week on a Friday, I would sort of knock, collecting any debts, anyone who hadn't given their ball back. Because there was a big issue with equipment getting lost.

Josh: It's stealing balls.

Callum: Yeah. Made your friends at school.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I was sort of more of a yard duty. Sort of hanging with it. I was the only kid that had access to the PA system.

Callum: That was me primary, very passionate about yard duty.

Josh: Yeah, I remember that.

Callum: I was very, very passionate about yard duty.

Josh: Yeah, yard duty, what a thing. Miss Farrelly, she was our sports teacher.

Callum: Ikeneso.

Josh: Miss Ikeneso, yeah.

Callum: Miss Stokes did PE every day.

Josh: Miss Stokes, she was great. She's my year 4 teacher. Fuck, this is nostalgia. Who did you have grade 6?

Callum: Goddard, Miss Goddard.

Josh: Yeah, same.

Tommy: What, Lote?

Josh: Oh, sorry, Miss Goddard was the one, told this storey that the naughty lad and said, I was riding through the schoolyard and there was kids that she was teaching and looks out at me and says, 'That boy is a very naughty boy,' or something.

Callum: You were like— I always thought you were, um, you were quite an extroverted kid. I remember, I've got a pretty good memory, but you're, you're, you know, you— I don't know if you're annoyed or anything, but he's always nice to me, I will say that.

Josh: That's why he's here.

Tommy: I think we could say— I think— I don't know if you were annoyed or something.

Josh: Did you just say naughty boy? But I was nice. To him.

Tommy: So did he have that cred that he was naughty?

Callum: I think he had some. So look, I think he had some sort of, um, like a Bart Simpson sort of thing, maybe a little bit. But I think because we had older brothers that were in the same year level, there was some sort of respect he gave me. Maybe.

Josh: I don't know. We know this, we got this.

Tommy: What about if you didn't have respect from Tommy Jacket? What would happen?

Callum: Oh, I'd be, um, be hiding up in the tree.

Josh: Yeah, but it would turn as soon as your balls dropped because you got 6 foot 7 dude.

Callum: I was a chubby kid at primary school. Really?

Tommy: What'd you weigh?

Callum: I could imagine. Um, I was very heavy. I was very heavy. My brother—

Tommy: primary school? I was at— well, I always got 120 in high school. But no, I would have, um, actually I remember they did this fucking tree which was the weight tree, which they definitely couldn't do nowadays. And they put it—

Callum: if you break a branch, you're overweight.

Josh: How high can you climb?

Tommy: No, they put it on the, on the the wall, and Dennis Stevcik and I were at the top. I got— so this was, uh, grade 2. He was 33 kilos and I was 31 kilos, which was very— everyone else was in the 20s.

Josh: That is horrible, dude.

Tommy: That's not ideal.

Callum: The, the early days of Two and a Half Men, I've been referred to as that kind of kid. Oh yeah. So, um, yeah, so my brother said, um, He did say to me that at that age, because you ate so much at the age of 7, you were shitting like a man.

Tommy: So he just said, what would you eat? Did you do lunch orders? Did you go to the canteen?

Callum: No, we had no canteen. They used to— primary school, there was lunch orders and on the paper, the sausage. Yeah, that's right. You put the coins in sausage rolls and big M's.

Josh: Remember the chicken wing, chicken drumsticks that were like just the shape of a drumstick, but just like fake chicken? Yeah, it was good days.

Tommy: Pizza Box.

Josh: I can't remember them.

Callum: It's disturbing that we actually got fed that stuff, particularly at school. Wouldn't, you know, these days there'd be some march. The parents would march to school and, you know, protest the kids going to school because they couldn't eat a sausage roll.

Tommy: Well, we had a— we found an old email that I sent when I was 15 with recommendations for healthier options for the school canteen, which one of the healthy options was a milkshake.

Callum: Was there a caring policy thing you could put up there?

Tommy: There should have been.

Josh: Playing your first game of footy, running out, what was the biggest field that you played on? What, the stadium? Like, your first, what was it?

Callum: Uh, so my first game we played, so I played in for the West Coast Eagles in Perth and I played there for 3 seasons. So my first game was in, um, we played Hawthorn round 2 in 2013. And, you know, it was literally the good thing about playing for, um, for a team that's interstate is that literally the whole stadium, 95% of the stadium is just for you. Yeah. So it's, um, it's a pretty cool experience. So 40,000 fans literally all going for you. Um, in terms of the biggest, I played in the 2015 Grand Final, so there was 100, probably 100,000 people there.

Josh: So what does it do to your head? Like, I mean, it's probably the closest thing to associate— like, what does it do to your ego? Like, do you feel a shift in what you're thinking when you are being lauded as a player on a field?

Callum: Probably depends how you play, to be honest. Like, I reckon, you know, you could go out there and kick, kick 6 goals and, you know, touch the ball 30 times, and you're coming off the ground and people are telling you how good you are, and it's fantastic. And, um, but then, you know, if you go out there, have a shocker, and the team loses, suddenly you're like Donald Trump, you know what I mean? And then no one talks to you. But I always— me and the boys at the club kind of have a bit of a a bit of a joke that there's, there's only two types of games that a player plays. One's the game where you come off the ground and you cheque your phone and there's about 30 messages, missed calls, everything like that. And then the other game is when you come off the ground, you cheque your phone, crickets.

Josh: Really?

Callum: And they're the bad games, or you've lost. So, um, in terms of your ego, yeah, like, you can— I can imagine, you know, you definitely can't get carried away and things like that. But sometimes some of the best players have got, um, have got a massive ego, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but that's probably what makes them this amazing player and give them this sense of, you know, um, power when they're out in the football field. And what makes them play well every week because they've got such this, this such strong belief in themselves to perform.

Tommy: So if I wanted to build a good friendship with you, would you suggest that maybe every time you lose I text?

Callum: Is that really the way you're gonna ask?

Tommy: Well, I feel like that could have cut through, right? Like, if it's—

Josh: if can we work in the keyring thing into your friendship?

Callum: Yeah, probably. It's probably true. Like, yeah, if you've had an absolute shocker and someone actually reaches out to you and says, hey mate, maybe I won't even mention it.

Tommy: I'll be like, bro, didn't see the game, but how you doing?

Callum: Yeah, but you did see it.

Josh: And so that— are you—

Callum: and you know that I've played a game.

Josh: You saw it. Are you Um, like, for when that does happen, you start sort of seeing a trend, right, of who these people in your life that are obviously just there for the good times. Is it something you have to sort of start culling? Are you doing a friendship cull in real life?

Callum: Um, it's really a friendship cull. I've been pretty lucky, mate, to be honest. I've kind of, um, I think probably coming into the league a little bit later, you, um, you kind of build up that kind of, you know, core friendship of, you know, guys from school. And then when you leave school, you kind of have your mates that really stuck by the entire time. So I've got, you know, 4 or 5 really, really close mates that I'm still in touch with, and we've got history, you know, since we were 13 years old. But, um, yeah, like, I'm not gonna lie, there's definitely times where, um, you question— you're like, are you talking to me because you actually like me as a person, or did you just like the fact that, you know, um, the boys had a great win against, um, you know, against Carlton on the weekend? Um, yeah, I don't know if it's a cull, but you're just kind of aware of kind of, you know, people who, um Yeah, you know, if— will they talk to you or will they be around you if, you know, if things aren't going so well?

Josh: I think friendship is a fun— is an interesting one because there's like, you're placing people, right? So you're placing them in an acquaintance box, and there's the acquaintance that you might trust, and these acquaintance that I wouldn't trust them, but I like them, they're an acquaintance. And then there's my close mates. And so you start sort of doing that. I could imagine it just becomes— there's a bit more of that when you're in the public eye.

Callum: And it's probably hard when you get traded as well. Like, you know, I played in, um, I'm not from Perth, but I lived there for 4 years. It was a big, big part of my life. And, you know, you, you go to work every single day and there's 45 players that you work with for 4 years straight. And literally, um, I got traded to the, um, to the Sydney Swans. And you, you realize, and this is not a malice thing, but you kind of realise kind of far out, like all fantastic people, really great people to hang around with. But to keep in touch with 45 guys, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty, pretty hard. So you probably only really kind of walk away with probably maybe 3 or 4 that you really kind of like keep in touch with. And, um, and then the other side of that, you actually might surprise yourself who you actually do keep in touch with. So, um, because if you're going to have, you know, 20-minute conversations with 45 guys every week, you're not going to have too much time. It's a full-time job.

Josh: Yeah, it's a full-time job.

Callum: Absolutely full-time job. I think staying in touch these days is it's an emoji. Like if someone replies to your Insta storey with like a fire with a thumbs up, you're like, oh, have you heard from him? Yeah, I spoke to him last week.

Josh: What about being in clubs? You've been in Eagles, West Coast Eagles and Swans. The superstars of these clubs that are the poster boys of AFL. You got Buddy Franklin. And then even if you're looking at other clubs, Dustin Martin for Richmond, what's it like being in a club when, when it has these superstars and what— and, and they're sort of obviously pushed out to the media, it's— they're the marketing juggernaut behind the club. What does it feel like for the other teams? Because there's a bunch of Sydney Swans players I don't— I, I don't know, but they're probably crucial parts of the, the club. But then the ones I do know, the other ones like, you know, Buddy.

Callum: And so what is it like within the environment for the team Yeah, like, I don't know, it's just like anything because you spend so much time together, you don't really see the individuals like that. Like, I could imagine from the outside, you know, you look at, um, look at the best players kind of in any sport who are the marquee players, but when you really spend time with these people, um, every single day and you learn so much about them and you're literally working together, um, yeah, it doesn't really kind of, kind of click in. And as to like, you know, these guys are amazing superstars, don't get me wrong, when I go out in the field and play with Buddy Franklin, I I'm getting the best setting. Oh my God, I cannot believe you just did that. Yeah, that's amazing. But, um, but in terms of the marketing stuff, and it just comes with the territory, mate, to be honest. Yeah, um, you know, yeah, yeah, they might do an ad for, you know, um, a fantastic sponsor and shoes and hats and things like that. But, um, because you're working with them so day, um, every day, the playing group knows each other on a level that no one else would know anyone. Yeah, you're seeing them at their highs when they're doing amazing things and you're seeing them at their lows when they've had when they're going through a really nasty injury or they're out, you know, out for 12 months or pissing in a cup. Yeah, something's happening in— something's happening in their personal life. And, um, yeah, it's a— football clubs are a really, really good leveler, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can never ever get too high and you really can't get too low. It's all about staying here and, you know, or going towards, you know, one direction. I hope that kind of answers your question.

Josh: No, no, I think it's— well, I think it's the external— my thinking behind it is maybe there's more interest, or people— they're shown more love within the club, which, which I just extrapolate from guy who's sort of post-boy of club would probably get more attention within. Other people might be feeling left out, you know, like, or there might be jealousy within the club. I'm just really looking for some bitchy little angle, but I think we're all humans, right? There is— you could feel jealousy over a teammate, doesn't mean that it's right or that you should. It's human response to feel sort of—

Callum: I think naturally, if, you know, like, if you're kind of like— for the first part of my career, you know, you're playing reserve football, which means you're playing in the seconds, and you want to break into the senior team, and there's a guy that's playing in your position, and you can— and you're looking at it going like, you know, what's, what's so good about this guy? Yeah, I mean, why can't I break into that team? So yeah, like, we're all human, and you're right that you, you probably think, um, you know, you're maybe hard done by, or you're trying to work out, you know, how do I get that sort of attention. But it's just the reality of a competitive sport, you know, and particularly when the team's going really, really well. Good teams are hard to break into, and I don't necessarily think it— I don't necessarily would say it's jealousy. I'd say it's just competitiveness. Yeah, okay. You're in a sporting team, and particularly team sport, extremely competitive.

Josh: Is it advantageous having a competitive nature within a club?

Callum: Um, it's a must. Like, the league is so— league is so, so tough and it's so hard to succeed. There's 18, 18 teams wanting to, um, wanting to compete for a Premiership flag, but— and only 22 players can play in that team, and you've got a squad of, I think, 40, 48. So there's going to be a lot of guys left out every single week. But without those kind of guys pushing, you know, those other guys to perform, you're not going to be a successful team.

Tommy: I've just got this vision that they've all just paid their $60 and they've won the raffle ticket. They've come in and it's like, ah, red 43, I guess you're 43.

Josh: Amazing that they're all so fit though. Exactly right. So you're saying the 40, 40, how many people in a team?

Callum: I think it's 46 to 48, I think like that.

Josh: And so at the end of the week, how do you know that you're on in the squad for the weekend.

Callum: So the game's on a Saturday, you really kind of— yeah, they select a squad of probably 22 players. Let's select a squad of about 25 on Thursday and you'll know you're in the squad.

Josh: And it's like bingo every Thursday night. Just what are we doing? What's my raffle ticket this week?

Tommy: And so what do you do if you don't have a game? Like if you're not playing, you're obviously—

Callum: well, there's a reserves grade, so you, um, you're basically playing playing in the seconds.

Tommy: So really, so you guys still play?

Callum: Yeah, I still play, which is, which is good. So they, um, um, and I, I've played plenty of reserves footy. So you, you basically, your job is to go back and plead a case, um, to the coaching staff and the selectors that you should be in the next week. So sometimes, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're not playing too well, then it— and that if you, if you get dropped to the reserve grade, might necessarily be a bad thing because you can go back, play some terrific football, and plead your case why you should be back in the team.

Josh: What's your longest run of playing AFL every weekend and not sort of having a break with reserves?

Callum: Um, I haven't probably played a, played a reserves game since probably 2017.

Josh: That's pretty long.

Tommy: Yeah, so if you use it, ruckman, do they like— do you all have a special bond like between teams and stuff? You're like, well, other ruckman, other ruckman.

Josh: How— I go for Melbourne. How are you with Gawnd?

Callum: Is very tall, very, very nice guy.

Josh: He can run too.

Callum: He's actually a very, very good runner. He's a great footballer, very good footballer. But he—

Tommy: I love how much you've played into the cliché by just— yeah, he's tall.

Callum: Yeah, not much else you can really say about us. But yeah, you kind of see after a game that ruckmen usually, usually get together, shake a hand, have a handshake and a little cuddle and a quick kind of chat like, g'day mate, how you going? How's things? And yada yada yada. Because, because during the game you're so you're basically, you're so basically holding hands for 2 hours. You're kind of in a really, real combative thing. And yeah, you're having a crack each other and you're trying to win, but at the end of the game, I'd like to think that there's kind of this mutual respect because I think a lot of other players can lose their opponents throughout the chaos. But genuinely, with a ruckman, you've got to kind of, you know, be accountable to one another and not let each other, let each other off the leash.

Tommy: So do you have like a trick? Do you wait like a beat before you jump, or is there certain things that in your head you do? Get the ball?

Callum: I can't give you that one, Josh. Oh yeah, you have different techniques, different people, but you know, Gorney's obviously a big fella, so you've got to be on your game to get around him.

Josh: Is there—

Callum: you wanted more?

Josh: Yeah, I wanted tips, top 3 tips.

Tommy: Well, I did also want to know what your favourite rule is. Australian Rules football, what is your favourite rule?

Callum: Favorite rule—

Tommy: before we came on, we were doing all the, you know, kicking in danger, which I believe isn't in the AFL. Is that only— is that—

Callum: you say if your hands are on the ground?

Tommy: So is that because in junior footy that would happen every fucking 2 minutes, kicking in danger in Dever Hills. I feel like you never get that within the context of AFL. I've never seen a kicking in danger thing done. I've seen them kick it from there.

Callum: Yeah, yeah, you say it probably doesn't happen that much. It's definitely a rule.

Tommy: It's like a double dribble. Have you ever seen a double dribble in an NBA game?

Josh: Travel.

Tommy: I've seen a lot of traveling, but double dribble? No. So double dribble being like putting both hands on the ball while bouncing. But the other thing about NBA, very quickly, uh, a bit of sports talk. Um, I'm trying to get KO to sponsor a segment called Sports Talk where I talk about sport.

Callum: Um, uh, I think it does the video for KO.

Tommy: Really?

Callum: Yeah, I'll put you in touch.

Tommy: Thank you. Well, because I emailed their marketing manager. Oh, I didn't hear anything though, but I only emailed twice and they say 3 times is the I sort of put myself in a corner because I said, hey, I need to know by Monday. And then Monday came past, didn't hear from her, and I couldn't really follow up because your strength is persistence. Um, no, but the thing with NBA is I feel like they, um, they're travelling all the time, but they let it go because it's sort of a decent sport. Like, you know, it's such a speed they're going on. You can do fucking 4 steps and if, if it looks good, they're okay. But, um, your favourite rule, something that you like, is there a quirky rule that's a little bit sort of not well known within footy?

Callum: Trying to think. I've always wanted the rule where if the ball hits the post, it comes back in play. You just, you just keep going. But mate, to be honest, one of the annoying things is that they change the rules every single year. Really? So every year they come into the club and they go, they change the rules and you're like, hang on, I just got me head around that one. But what's one of the latest rules?

Tommy: What are they changing?

Callum: Uh, we did— so in a practise match period, they trialled you can't kick backwards.

Tommy: You can't kick back?

Callum: You can, but it's just play on.

Josh: Oh, it's good. It's to stop the game getting so slow.

Callum: So they do kind of things like they trial kind of things, um, in a practise match period. But the worst rule ever was the sub rule. Do you remember that?

Josh: Oh yeah.

Callum: So there was a player, one player in every single team that had to wear a beard bib, right, on the ground while they're on the ground, on the bench, on the bench, right? And I'll just, um, I'll go into this for a little bit. So one player had to wear a bib, and that player— so you have 3 interchange guys on and off whenever they want. The guy that wears the bib, um, comes on for a player that they want to take off for the rest of the game. So if you're having an absolute stinker, right, and, um, you have your absolute stinker and you're like, oh no, you go, oh God, I hope that bib's around somewhere. What's going on? And there've been a couple of times where I've run to the bench just thinking I'm on a normal interchange and the guy that has the bib, they're like, in your head they're probably just going like, oh, this is yours. But yeah, but actually in your head you think they're going, hey. And then so basically you're sitting there for the second half of the game in this bib.

Tommy: You have to wear the bib.

Callum: You have to wear the bib. That's the annoying bit. And you've had absolute shocker, and you're sitting there and the camera always comes to you and you're like, yep, so Sinclair's been subbed out of the game.

Tommy: You've dislocated your shoulder twice in the, in the space of 20 minutes. Oh, how the fuck does that happen?

Callum: Yeah, it was not a, uh, not a great, great afternoon, that one, to be honest. So I literally was— literally the— I reckon it was the first 10 seconds of the game. I did the first ones, the ball went up, came out, slid and literally someone just landed on it and I just looked down, I just went, oh God, that's no good. And it wasn't going back in. So, um, I remember running off, running off the ground and one of the players was like, are you switched on today?

Tommy: And I'm like, you fucking shoulder.

Callum: Anyway, so it came off the ground and, um, yeah, they popped it back in and, um, and then yeah, because I remember like my shoulder clicks and I've seen a few people dislocate their shoulders at basketball and stuff.

Tommy: It freaks me out. Was it like someone have to yank it in and you screaming?

Callum: Yeah, like there's, um, you like, yeah, I always kind of thought there was a real, you know, um, medical technique to it. There isn't. Um, it's pretty just, it's like carpentry. They just kind of get you at a certain angle and yank it back in. And because it was the start of the game, I kind of felt like it's pretty important. I've got to get back out in the field and I taped it up, and because the adrenaline was so, so high, I kind of actually felt all right after. I actually didn't feel too, too bad. Um, did a couple of marks and practised a few tackles downstairs and went out again. And kind of when I went out, I'm like, yeah, this doesn't feel great when someone— but I thought, look, I'll, I'll see how I go. Got through about 10 minutes, and then literally just before the first quarter siren, I just went up to tap the ball, and literally no one touched me, and it just went Slipped out again, and then that literally stayed out for about 40 minutes. So I don't know, I must have got it at an angle where it just sat out, and I was downstairs kind of like, um, just wasn't going back in. And unfortunately, yeah, like, they give you the green stick or whatever. Well, even the doctor, Tom, who's actually a ripping guy and a great doctor, even he was like, it was so hard for him. He was like, Cal, just give me a few minutes.

Josh: He's working on it.

Callum: And I'm just sitting there going like Give you a few minutes.

Josh: And so they're giving you painkillers at that point?

Callum: Yeah, man, I had to, mate. It was, it was so, so excruciating that, um, yeah, I wouldn't be able to because they were kind of pulling it and you don't know what kind of damage you're doing it when they're kind of pulling it back in. So, um, what do you think, Rico shoulder?

Tommy: Is that the one?

Callum: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. And is that why you had it done?

Callum: Yeah, because the joint was really, really unstable. So, um, look, it's not uncommon in contact sport, um, It was just a bit of a— I think mine was just quite, quite a public one. I think everyone quite, quite saw it. And yeah, it was quite graphic. You could actually see the—

Tommy: is it on YouTube?

Callum: I think so.

Tommy: I think so. Put it in the show notes.

Josh: Yeah. Oh, and then after that, are you, are you having people like— do you hear whispers of, ah, he's fucking done it?

Tommy: And then we're targeting your shoulder, the little fucks just trying to get you.

Callum: Well, I haven't, I haven't actually played a game since, but I do, I actually do remember going out in the after— after they did the first one, I came out in the field because I had it taped up and like I was probably holding it a little bit kind of like that, a little bit, um, being ridiculous to be honest. Um, I did hear someone say, boy, his shoulder's fucked, in the crowd. Or a player, player, I found the T-Lock, get into it, me shoulder's fucked. I'm like, please mate, don't do that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Do you ever tape up up both shoulders so they don't know which one.

Callum: There's a player that did that. Okay, there's a player that did that. Um, forgotten his name, played for a team. Um, but he actually— sorry, he actually taped the other shoulder because he thought the other team would come after him and not going after his other shoulder because the one that was taped. So it's actually quite smart. That's a good idea.

Josh: Far out. And, um, do you— in terms of mates coming to watch you play, now that you and Josh are going to be on the text, yeah, do you, uh, do you get people hitting you up, those The one— are they just the losers that didn't get the ground entrance?

Tommy: You have to get tickets. I'll be in the KO box.

Callum: Yeah, no, no, yeah, we definitely get tickets. Great angle, what aren't you?

Josh: Yeah, what I'm edging for is podcast under the MCG or SCG, just podcast from up in somewhere.

Callum: That could be a range.

Josh: That'd be cool.

Callum: That can be arranged. So, but no, yes, you do get tickets and then you do get a handful of of ground passes for every player.

Tommy: Pardon? Every player?

Callum: Yeah, I think every player gets allocated 4 or 5 per game.

Tommy: Would we be sitting with your other mates if we got tickets? Yeah, yeah.

Callum: But when my schoolmates come, they just boo me. It's not like, and they're your real mates, because I think a couple of times around the field and all I hear is boo.

Tommy: Would it be funny if we all dressed up with those bibs? That could be.

Callum: Oh God, I'd spot that out in the crowd. Just go, yeah, what's the— you're waving it at me.

Josh: What's the Brownlow like as an attendee?

Callum: Couldn't tell you.

Josh: Oh, you've never been?

Callum: No, I've never been. Haven't been invited. Actually, no, sorry, I actually, uh, I did get invited a couple years ago, but I was, um, it was because someone couldn't go, um, and then they asked someone else and they couldn't go, and then they said, oh, do you want to go? And I just said— and, uh, but my ego kicked in and said, well, no, if I'm not invited, I'm, I'm not going. So I didn't want to be known been, um, as the person that wasn't invited and they've asked 3 other people to go, and then I'm the one that was like, yeah, I'll go.

Tommy: Text me next time.

Josh: How do you get invited? Why?

Callum: I think it's like they invite the top maybe 6 players that'll probably poll the most. Um, so do you like—

Tommy: I don't understand like completely the point. Like, did you— have you ever gotten points?

Callum: Like, for a vote?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Callum: So I think after every game, the, the umpires will, will select kind of, was like 3 players who they think were the best on ground, 3 being the best player and then 2 and 1. And then every game gets that. And yeah, the theory of math is that the person with the highest amount of votes is deemed the best player. But no, never, never invited, unfortunately.

Josh: At your podcast Conversations with Cal, I think it's such a great idea getting an insight into players, like, because there's people that would just love to understand what's happening internally. I think about movies, movie stars doing them, taking like Taken, the guy doing an extended, like it's an extension of the movie. As in, imagine that with Liam Neeson. Like, imagine hearing a podcast of the extension of the movie. And I think it's like sporting players.

Callum: I'm trying to find a linkage.

Josh: I'm just saying, like, people that people love, imagine that. Like, I think the footy players—

Callum: not literally Taken, like the— okay, I get it. Sorry.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So, but I actually, I went around. My point being, imagine characters within a movie start their own podcast, but as the character from the movie.

Tommy: I actually think, who's doing that?

Josh: There is a Ron Burgundy. Anchorman. Yeah, Anchorman. But I reckon there's better ones as well. But I see the link is people who love sports stars within sporting environments. You only see them play on the weekend, but you want to hear more. And I think your podcast is a great example of being able to get an insight into the club and hearing the stories.

Callum: It is true. I think a lot of the— that's, to be honest, that's probably one of the angles that I actually really, really enjoy. And even for a player, you can actually get really, really caught up in thinking that you actually know your teammate. And, um, but, you know, I, I sat down with, uh, Alir Alir. He's a good friend of mine, and he was born in South Sudan, fled to Kenya, and then started his life growing up in a refugee camp before relocating to to Australia when he was, I think it was 6 years old. But I knew that, I knew that. But when I actually got the opportunity to sit down with him, you know, in a setting like this, and he actually talks to me about what it actually is like to be in a refugee camp, and he talks about the struggles that he had growing up. He fled to Newcastle, coming to a primary school, being the only, um, being the only Black guy at a primary school in Newcastle, not speaking English, not able to communicate with everyone. You know, I see it, Lira Lira, every day. And, um, yes, I knew he was from a different background, but I actually didn't know actually too much about it. And that's the theory, um, that's basically why it's great to have the podcast. And even, um, guys like, uh, Kieran Jack, who I've had a chat with, Dan Menzel, they actually— I actually find actually when they come on, they actually— people genuinely do actually give a little bit, and they actually quite like to share a little bit more about their life, a little bit more than just, you know, kicks, marks, and handballs.

Josh: Well, we're not one-dimensional. I think everyone on the field has a storey And you know, they've all had a childhood, and it's the format too of podcasting.

Tommy: Yeah, people know that sort of posture of doing that, even versus going and being on a radio show, which could be completely different.

Callum: You know, it's hard though, I found, actually, to be honest, doing a podcast. I think when I first, um, you know, uh, did it for the footy club, I, I was like, oh yeah, like having a chat in a microphone, like you know, I enjoy talking shit, like this is going to be pretty actually easy. And then you start, you know, I kind of went into the first one kind of, yeah, I got some questions and, you know, thinking that, you know, this is going to be really, really easy and quite enjoyable. And that I actually realised it's actually a bit of an art to it. It's actually quite hard. And I listened back to the first one and I just turned it off after about 2 minutes. I cannot stand that guy chatting. That is not me. They've done something else. But to actually make things kind of sound you know, smooth and a bit of a rhythm to it. And I do find it hard doing it one, uh, one-off. You guys can do it two, and you can— one of you is having a bad day, you know, you can help each other out and things like that. But I think, uh, one-on-one with someone, I kind of, uh, all the pressure kind of comes in that person to make sure that it's quite, um, that's all going smoothly. But yeah, bloody hard. You guys might find it easy, but I actually found it really difficult.

Josh: No, I think the one-on-one thing is, is the hard bit. Like, if you would just have— if we— if I just had a guest coming in each day, there's a lot more that needs to go into it. We can riff off each other. Um, did that make you nervous doing something like the podcast?

Callum: Uh, I was honestly fine with it and thought it was all really— it was all going to be a great thing, uh, right up until we actually put the mic in front. And, um, a guy, one of my mates, did the very first one, Dane. And I'm sitting there and I'm going, oh my God, like, my hands are sweaty. I chat to you every single day. Like, why is this— and these making me so weird? Like, about having having a chat, but actually have to ask him, you know, not, not deep personal stuff, but just get his views on stuff. And, um, you know, not being that, you know, jovial surface chat that happens, you know, generally at a footy club. But, um, like, the palms are sweaty, they have—

Josh: yeah, I think it's when anyone says that, I talk down the pubble, you know. Like, I, I love having chats. It's, it is, it's a different muscle. It's, it's a, it's a It's a manufactured environment to have a conversation. And so that needs to be built on. What about running out in the field? Do you get nervous?

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Callum: Yeah, yeah. 100%. I think you vomit or anything.

Tommy: You know, you hear people that vomit before every game.

Callum: Some boys do. Like, we had a few players that generally kind of like choose to kind of like, you know, some guys honestly, like, I find it really, really frustrating when I see the guys that can kind of sit around and they're just like laughing around, joking, and have a chat. And, oh my God, I've got to get my boots on and go out there and run. And they'll go out and play amazing.

Josh: Who's someone that a lot of people would know?

Callum: Um, I played with Andrew Gaff from West Coast, and he was just like the most relaxed guy pre-game. And I used— and he's an awesome footballer, and I think he'd be— he'd be definitely in their top, top 3 or 4 players now. And he's just the most relaxed guy pre-game and just be sitting there chilling. I'm not sure what he'd be like now, but I used to just be so— it must make me angry because I'd be like, oh, I've got to get this right, got to do that, got to do this, got to do that.

Tommy: And you've got your shoes on for half an hour, 40 minutes, and checking the laces.

Callum: And then there's, you know, other guys that kind of, you know, get around everyone and go, you switched on the day, mate, where are you? We're ready to go.

Tommy: Watch the fucking show.

Callum: Yeah. And then you got— and then you got, um, that's them projecting, by the way.

Josh: Scared.

Callum: You got other guys that meditate. They do, um, they have a process every week they go through. They like to meditate. Some guys pump the tunes in their ear— in their ears.

Tommy: Has anyone ever used a speaker, or has there ever been any sort of biffos where people are playing loud music?

Callum: Well, there's like a section in the warm-up area where everyone kind of plays, um, and there's like a playlist. And, um, who picks the playlist? Well, it sounds like trainer Josh Elliott, lovely guy, but 25 weeks straight, you just like, it becomes Groundhog Day and the next song will be Jug Jomon Ocean Drive.

Tommy: Yeah.

Callum: And you just know that it's going to come on. But, but yeah, there's a kind of a section that if you want the loud music, that kind of all happens. But if I had it my way, it would all just be kind of sitting there and having general conversations. But everyone's kind of got their own level of anxiety.

Tommy: Just got your microphone and headphones.

Callum: That'd probably help me.

Josh: Have you ever been hunted down by BT after. Josh, this is the guy that you like.

Callum: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: They just roll for 7, 8 minutes of just live feed.

Tommy: The grand finals.

Josh: He's just commentating, walking around. All right, I'm just going to grab this bloke here. He is. Cal, how you going, mate? How's it going, mate?

Callum: Yeah.

Josh: Have you been grabbed by him?

Callum: I have been. I have been caught up by him once before, but I haven't got like a funny storey or something that he's done to me. Like, I don't know. No, no. He kind of goes, how do you think today went? And I'm like, yeah, good. And he just takes the mic away. Anyway, so But no, I think he genuinely likes to hunt down the A-graders, mate, because that's what everyone wants to listen to.

Josh: And footy players media trained, is that a thing?

Callum: I think so. I think when you first come in, I remember when I first came in to West Coast, they took us out to Channel 7 for the day and we just, in terms of trying, like, I don't, we don't go, don't go to, well, I didn't, no one put me in a course and you sit there and this is how you do this and that.

Tommy: But I remember being taken to Channel 7 get a photo at the newsroom sort of thing.

Callum: Yeah, seriously, that's what we did. Yeah, then Basil Semplis just showed us a couple of funny things on the thing and then a couple in front of the weather map. Yeah, yeah. And now you're Mediatribe. Yeah. Um, but no, to be honest, not really. No, not really. When I think about it, I think you just kind of say all the cliché lines and hopefully no one—

Josh: What's your favourite cliché line? Oh, we're doing this.

Tommy: Yeah, we're doing the match report. I remember like match report, just, oh yeah, uh, why did, why did we start saying it? Was it because we're giving props or something?

Josh: We're doing a match report.

Tommy: It's like, oh yes, uh, great, great, uh, game. Now Warren, uh, 6-7-42 to Deverhill, 7-9-45. Uh, you know, Mr. 97 did great on the ball.

Callum: I think if you played a really good game, they go, oh, you know, the commentators come in and they'll be like, oh mate, you you played a super game today, you just felt like you were everywhere. And then the first thing you do is go, oh yeah, the team were great at helping me out. Yeah, hang on, I killed it out there.

Josh: Maybe it's a tall poppy thing. Imagine if you said I was a fucking savage today.

Tommy: I'm sure the, like, American, some of the American footy would get right into just like, yeah, look, it wouldn't—

Josh: if it wasn't for me, the team—

Callum: I watched the NBA draught and someone someone got drafted and they're like, oh, what are you gonna— what are you gonna bring to this team? And, um, and, you know, in Australia, the— when you get drafted, the stand-up line is, oh, I just want to, you know, earn the respect of my teammates and things like that. And this, um, this American guy would have been like 7 foot. He's like, I'm gonna bring motivation, I'm gonna bring— I'm gonna— I'm gonna bring sass. It's just like, all right, that's gold. It's funny, it's good, but, um, Yeah, I think we're getting a little bit bored because everyone's boring, because I think everyone's scared of the backlash that might happen if you pump yourself up too much.

Tommy: Is it fair to say you're good at accents? You could. I heard on the last one. Yeah, Irish, Irish accent. And then the American one was quite good.

Callum: I did drama at school. Oh really? Which I found really, really interesting. And then I had to—

Tommy: Drama and theatre studies or just drama?

Callum: Sorry, theatre studies.

Tommy: Did you do a monologue?

Callum: I did. Yeah.

Tommy: What was your monologue?

Callum: I honestly reckon that was in my like football sport, and that was the most daunting experience of my life, really. Rocking up to this place in Moorabbin, um, for my Year 12, um, like you had a written exam and you also had the monologue.

Tommy: Turning up at, um, the Moorabbin Town Hall, I think I went there too, right?

Callum: For, um, 4 judges who I've never ever seen before. And I honestly reckon that after I did my monologue, I reckon they said thank you. As soon as I closed the door, I reckon they all went— honestly, I just reckon I walked out back going, yeah, I don't know.

Tommy: Do you remember what it was?

Callum: It was an Australian— it was an Australian, um, piece. I think I— all I know is that I do the monologue.

Tommy: Do it now.

Callum: I honestly cannot remember it, but I do remember, um, I had a shopping trolley and I dressed up like a bloody woman. Um, but yeah, I had to make the call kind of in like year I did it in Year 12, but I kind of had this inkling that, um, because I was a real sport-heavy school, um, that the theater, the theatre department of our school kind of had a little bit of a chip on their shoulder about, you know, people doing sport.

Tommy: Yeah.

Callum: Anyway, so I kind of, um, gave me in my year— I'm gonna vent again— in my Year 12 production, um, I thought I did a fantastic job. I thought I did a really, really good job. Job. And, uh, what was the production? Uh, it was like an Elizabethan piece, but it was like a comedy. Uh, Serving the Two Masters. Yeah, I can't remember who it was by, but, um, anyway, and then I was kind of like a comedy kind of role, and, um, I got a C, and I was completely filthy. And anyway, Mr. Joachim Marchos, his name was, um, that gave me that mark. But, um, anyway, next question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: No, I feel— I mean, do you have— because Tommy doesn't necessarily look that fondly at his school memories. Me, I think I, uh, I wasn't very good at school, but I did every single extracurricular activity and had a lot of sort of friendships with teachers and did heaps of weird stuff. What— where did school fit for you?

Callum: Uh, great tryer. Yeah, a really good tryer. I thought, I thought I really, um Yeah, I got a little bit similar to yourself. Like, I always kind of prided myself on having good relationships with teachers and things like that. I probably—

Tommy: in the SRC.

Callum: What's that?

Tommy: Student Representative Council.

Callum: Nah, nah, didn't have that. No, we, uh, it was called this, the student council. But, um, no, I didn't, didn't get a gig in that. Um, but yeah, I'd say that I enjoyed the later parts of school, didn't really enjoy the middle parts. But, um, definitely wasn't, uh, I was just average, mate. I definitely wasn't, uh a Rhodes Scholar, or probably good at talking my way out of things, as you probably can say.

Josh: Yeah.

Callum: But yeah, I don't know, anytime now.

Josh: Life after footy, it's nowhere near for you yet, but are you— do you— within the club, are they helping you make investments? They're helping you understand what life could be like after?

Callum: Yeah, I think there's a common culture now that it's pretty good where they preach pretty hard and try and get the boys to, to be pretty engaged outside of the sport. You know, when you're playing AFL football or kind of any professional sport, you kind of feel like you're in this bubble. And, you know, at times, you know, you might think you're a bit more important than what you actually are. And, uh, yeah, it would definitely— like, my philosophy on it is that you're only in this career, um, you're only in this career a short amount of time, and then you're a long time retired. Yeah. So you've got to have a real backup plan. So, you know, um, you know what it's like is you've kind of come from school and you're 18 and you've played for 12 years 12 years straight and let's say that, you know, you finish around 30, 31, 32, you don't really know too much of the outside world if you've done that for that long. So, um, you know, yes, a lot of the alarm— we're in a privileged position where you get paid quite decent and you get access to a lot of terrific opportunities.

Tommy: How does pay work, by the way?

Callum: Monthly. Okay, but everyone has a different contract. And so the whole draught thing So your pay when you drafted is like set for 2 years already. So everyone's kind of on the same thing.

Tommy: And then so do you need then like a player manager?

Callum: Yeah, you have a player manager and majority of their job is to negotiate your contract whenever you come out of contract.

Tommy: Yeah. And so the offseason with all your RICO and all that sort of thing, did that mean that you were— did you have to do— were you on like light duties or something during that time or?

Callum: Not really, because I did like I had 8 games to go. So when I did it, there was 8 games remaining for the rest of the year.

Tommy: What month would it— so would it have been July?

Callum: Yeah, July, 8 games remaining. So basically I shut up shop really for 8 weeks. So then when the boys went on a 12-week holiday, which they're entitled to because they're absolutely knackered by the end of the season, I kind of hung around in the offseason, had to kind of get my shoulder right for the preseason. But just back—

Tommy: how does that— what does that do? What does that do to you mentally in regards to like all the mates are going off to school league? And you're, you know, you're— no, it's not—

Josh: the footy fans don't literally go to school.

Tommy: It's a fucking metaphor, but I think I've touched a nerve.

Callum: You're good. Um, yeah, it can be— oh, it can be hard because you're—

Tommy: what's what—

Callum: it's what the cards— it's the cards you've dealt. Like, I think I've got a pretty good headspace of that kind of stuff. It's like, look, it's what you're paid to do. Like, it's my job. That's, you know, you've got an obligation to to the club to get back in, you know, in a certain condition to be able to perform the next year. If you don't do it, you'll just get found out and you'll probably end up gonna— you know, the clubs these days, it's such a science, you know, getting players to optimal performance physically that if you don't come back in the required condition and ready to go for the preseason, you're just going to be left behind because it's just so competitive for spots. But kind of back to your comment around kind of the, um, you know, post-football kind of stuff. Like, you know, we've got a Players Association, which is essentially just like a union for all players that represent us to the league. And awesome thing they do is that they'll pay for uni.

Josh: That's great.

Callum: If you want to go to uni, that all you got to do, all you got to do is, um, is literally enrol in the course, um, pass the exam, give them the receipt, and they'll actually pay for it. So it's pretty— it's bloody good.

Tommy: Do another— because did you say that you went to uni?

Callum: Yeah, but I went to uni and finished uni before I got drafted, so I had a crack trying to get out.

Josh: You still got your HECS debt?

Callum: Yeah, yeah, they're still there.

Tommy: Surely just send them the HECS receipt.

Callum: Yeah, I tried, trust me. But, um, yeah, so a lot of the, a lot of the boys, uh, do that kind of stuff. Then you got a lot of, um, people that actually you know, because you're an AFL player, they actually find you interesting and they're prepared to actually help you if, you know, if you're prepared to kind of, you know, you know, manage some relationships with people and stuff like that. So I mean, yeah, pretty cool experience.

Josh: Yeah, if you can build a solid network and then your interest goes in some direction, like look at, um, uh, Nick Stone. Yeah, from Bluestone Lane over in the States, like successful footy player and then goes on to do something else.

Callum: And so he's a different kettle of fish, that guy. Like, he didn't really have a successful AFL career, but you know, oh, he just played AFL, that's successful. Yeah, well, no, probably for his standards, like, he would have loved to have obviously— no, you're actually— you're right, it's probably actually a little bit harsh, but he actually has done something, you know, pretty impressive. He took a big, big gamble to do what he did, and particularly the age he did it. It's actually, um, bloody impressive. But you used to not have to, um, they didn't quite think— the Players Association a long time ago, you could just— they just go, yep, I've enrolled in the course, and they Oh, here you go. So guys would fail. No, you've already paid me for it. I've already spent the money. So, you know, but now you actually have to prove that you've passed the course and then they'll reimburse you.

Josh: It's a pass, you get it.

Callum: So they used to give you, um, you know, if a subject costs $1,000, I'll go, yep, I've enrolled, yep, I'll pay it back. But if you just keep failing, you just keep getting $1,000. Ah, yeah.

Tommy: Wow. Um, the, the off-season for you So right now, like, when is the critical time that you need to be 100%?

Callum: So I was back at training on the— we officially started on the 19th of November, and then we had a 5-week, uh, training block which we just finished yesterday. And the plan was to get back to full contact training on— by the last week before the Christmas break. And, uh, yeah, I met that target. But, um, but the cool thing was, was before Before that, for 4 weeks, I actually fully trained with the team because it was about, you know, 18 weeks post-surgery, which is kind of when you finish up. But they gave me a fluoro yellow hat and a bib. It's a nerve, man, I'm just letting you know. It's a nerve. Um, they gave me a fluoro yellow hat, and basically what that means is I can do every single thing that everyone else is doing, um, but no one's allowed to touch me. Me.

Tommy: Oh great, it's like asthmatics when you go to, um, now if you go to the Great Barrier Reef and you're snorkeling, if you have asthma, they'll put a little pink ribbon on your snorkel.

Callum: Speaking of asthma, with the smog up in Sydney, it was horrendous.

Josh: Oh yeah, has that affected the training camp?

Callum: Yesterday was like, last session, like you couldn't even see like 100 metres in front of you. Really? So yeah, I think the thing someone said is like smoking a pack of, um, pack of darts and you're going to be gasping Like you're running around. Yeah, there might be some stuff.

Tommy: Yeah, great.

Josh: Surely, um, does anyone smoke? Any footy players smoke? Are you allowed to smoke ciggies?

Callum: It's not illegal, but yeah, not that I've seen. Not that I've— no one in our group would, would smoke. But, um, you would say that? Like, yeah, yeah, I would say that. But, um, it's a pretty funny thing to actually see a bloke just walking down the street having a vape. You don't know what vaping is?

Josh: Is there like vapour nicotine in Japan?

Callum: Hose? That—

Josh: oh, the nagila. Nagila. Oh, you're thinking that's like the shisha?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: No, no, that's a different thing.

Tommy: Vaping is like— seriously, do you not know what vaping is? No.

Callum: Yeah, like e-cigarette stuff.

Josh: So, um, you know when you see someone like blow this huge plume, it smells like fucking, um, fairy floss or some kind of berry.

Tommy: It's normally like a dude in a suit.

Callum: People like hold like a, um, like a square Like, uh, yeah, like a square thing.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's it. So like, it, it's, it's electronic and it like, you press the button on the side and it vaporises this liquid that has nicotine infused within it.

Tommy: Doesn't have to have nicotine in it.

Josh: Yeah, a lot of them do that. You wouldn't— you're a massive tryhard if you have it without nicotine. Yeah, okay, because why else would you have it?

Callum: So is it the same as a cigarette?

Tommy: Not like the taste of the—

Josh: oh yeah, but you're a big tryhard. The thing is that people try and go, okay, well, I quit smoking and I— and my addiction needs to be met from the nicotine because that's all they're addicted to. And so then they, they vape the nicotine thing. You can buy them in Australia that you're not allowed to sell nicotine infused, but everyone imports because usually it's chewy or a patch, isn't it?

Callum: Or is that old school?

Josh: That's old school.

Tommy: But then this vape thing is like, you know, I love that. Also, John Safran came on our show the other day and he's writing a whole book on this whole thing, and it's like like it's a huge industry, but a bunch of people got sick because there was something in the liquid and it was getting into their lungs. I think that's shit, probably. It's good just to avoid.

Callum: Yeah, I mean, yeah, we probably— would that help with medicinal marijuana or something?

Josh: Well, so they're putting marijuana into the vapor. So over in the States, like LA, you can just buy little vapour things. Anyway, you're not even—

Callum: you wouldn't know.

Tommy: Have you watched our video yet? We did a 2-hour, um, gummy video where we had gummies in LA and then filmed the whole thing.

Callum: I haven't seen it, but I could imagine it would be, um, be a size of funny.

Tommy: Yeah, no, well, actually, I, um, I didn't feel it, and then, but these guys did.

Josh: But you can be the judge. Yeah, she was all right. I told her that before, and I FaceTimed. Yeah, I haven't had a drink all year, so I'm really— I haven't had any substance. Do you drink?

Callum: I'm not a massive drinker, no. But like, someone asked me out for a drink or a beer, yeah, I'll go along. But I'm definitely not the person that's going to be like, let's get stuck into it.

Josh: It's good acting. Theater studies acting.

Tommy: I mean, that's one thing having footy players on the show. My arms are killing me. They're numb. And so when you're, when the the season starts, is everything off limits? Like, can you even— like, so if you had a game on a Sunday, is that— they're on Sundays yet? Uh, on a Sunday or a Saturday, whatever, Friday at the footy oval.

Callum: Yeah.

Tommy: Can you then, like, the next day be like, oh guys, I've got to go, I'm on the Daily Talk Show? Or is it— is this the only time to really get you on?

Callum: Um, no, like, I think, uh, so post-game, could we get you—

Tommy: could we have an Uber and get you post-game Or could we be like, is it BJ?

Callum: That'd be good fun, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'd—

Josh: Depends if the bid came out, he'd be fucking pissed.

Callum: He forgets about it. You guys could— this might go back to my point before— this could go back to that category where the Uber picks me up if I play well, or it doesn't show up if I play bad. So it takes two either way. Exactly right. But no, you could definitely do that. It'd be something I'd quite enjoy.

Tommy: But do they— next year, will you guys be playing like when you're in Melbourne? Is it— is it Marvel now? Is that what it's called? Marvel Stadium. And there's MCG. Is it just completely random where you end up or what do you mean?

Josh: Well, it's not their home ground.

Tommy: But so like when it comes to—

Callum: there's a fixture. So yeah, like, yeah.

Tommy: So we'll be able to suss it out.

Callum: Yeah. So we don't just come to Melbourne and like, oh, is there a ground we can play?

Tommy: You know your first game next year, wouldn't you?

Callum: Yeah, Adelaide, in Adelaide. And then I think we pop— and I think we come here for Carlton, which is like the— so usually every second week we're in Sydney in our home ground. So usually, usually the theory is with a fixture you play one away, one at home, one away, one at home. So yeah, we travel literally every second week. So I think we've got probably 7 to 8 games in Melbourne next year.

Tommy: So I reckon Swans could be my team. Like, I, when I was a kid, I know this is quite controversial, sort of moving between teams, When I was a kid, I was an Essendon supporter. And then my mates—

Josh: James Hird days?

Tommy: Yeah. Number 5.

Josh: Gavin Wanganeen?

Tommy: Matthew Lloyd.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Is that Matthew Lloyd that did that? But then there was, um, it was throwing grass.

Callum: Grass.

Tommy: Yeah.

Callum: That's actually part of his routine. He used to actually pick it up and sometimes not even have the grass in his hand. It was actually part of his, like, mental routine. You're playing at Marvel Stadium, there is no winning.

Tommy: But then there was, um, yeah, but then I moved to, uh, the Saints, uh, St Kilda, when, uh, my mate's dad had Medallion Club access. I went to like 3 games and so I thought I'd fucking buy in. But then the last time that I leaned into picking a team was Sydney Swans. My mate Byron Cook does a bunch with the Swans and he got had access, like tickets. Yeah, yeah, tickets. And so the great thing is whatever seats we had, they had the screen and shit.

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, that was a thing at Marvel. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: But my favourite joke is if you see someone with like the radio listening, just turning to your mate and say, I hope they don't spoil the game for us.

Callum: Because obviously, well, everyone does that now anyway. People come to the footy now and they do don't even like watch it. They just literally get their phone out and they actually watch it on the, on the, on the app. Yeah, but the game's just—

Josh: I've been in the bullring at the MCC, at the MCG, just drinking, and we didn't even go out. I reckon we went out once to just have a look, and then we went back in and drank and watched the TV.

Tommy: Yeah, it's like the Melbourne Cup or something, but there's such a good atmosphere of the footy. Like, it just feels great.

Callum: Good.

Josh: We watched, uh, we took, um, Dill, who was in town, first AFL match. He's Canadian. Fucking loved it. We, um, Richmond, Richmond played.

Tommy: Shit food. What did we get?

Josh: Uh, doughnuts and pies.

Callum: And speaking of atmosphere, I'll tell you who does it the best in sport is the darts. Have you seen the darts? No, I've never seen the darts before. No, mate, do yourself a favour after this, go on YouTube and type in darts fans. Whatever they've done, that, that sport, the marketing of that sport, they are selling out stadiums.

Tommy: KO has darts.

Josh: Really?

Callum: Like, they are selling out stadiums, and people have to turn— like, the— it's an English thing, but the UK are very, very good at turning sports that are quite slow, like soccer, into this amazing atmosphere. But if you go to the darts and you type in, like, World Series of Darts, they've got a whole stadium, literally the whole stadium. They all come in, like, fancy dress, and they're just like, you know, the professional darts players are just, you know, Roger down at your local pub who can, you know, hit the occasional bullseye. But they've turned those people into like household names, rock stars now. And they, they have like walk-in music and they've got the beautiful girl next to them and they like escort them on stage and, you know, they've got theme music and all this stuff. Like, yeah, honestly, I'm actually surprised you guys have, um, haven't actually sent it.

Tommy: Yeah, we should, um, get a dartboard here.

Josh: That'd be good. Yeah, it could be right in there, a bit tavernish.

Tommy: Do you know what would be sick? Like, we could even do it as sort of like a guest thing. Where we have a dart thing where the guest is a final thing, has to do a— it's a bit radio, but we can do darts with guests. Yeah, punching darts, but not a cow. And then we can have the, we can have the dartboard, and then maybe we have a tally board of all the questions. But what about we can have different questions or different things that you have to do depending on where you land, and then we just turn it over? That could be fun.

Callum: I'll get a question for you guys.

Josh: Yeah, all right.

Tommy: Production question.

Callum: So you guys doing 10 years of this, um, this thing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Callum: Have you ever given much thought into what would happen if both of you got, um, like an incredible opportunity? You know, I'll say together somewhere else in a podcasty format that you just couldn't turn down. Would you—

Tommy: if we get drafted?

Callum: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, yeah, we're in the business of like picking ourselves, which one of the things that like you look at all the networks So there's a bunch of podcast networks like PodcastOne and things like that. They don't play necessarily to the strengths of— you just have to talk to anyone who's in the network and they'll talk about like the slight limitations or I can't talk about this or I can't do this. If it was on our terms and if there was like, if it was a win-win, if we thought it was going to be great for them, it was going to be great for our audience, it was going to be great for us, then that is the daily talk show. At the end of the day, if it was, hey, we want you guys to do something else, it's not what you do. I think the radio thing is probably the furthest thing that we would do because everyone sort of says it says that's like, are you guys looking for a radio gig? It's like, no, we're doing this instead of like, this is the new—

Callum: What if money talks?

Josh: Nah, I think I've been in it and I know how painful it can be.

Tommy: I mean, Shepparton was paying you $55 grand.

Josh: I know, but even this show, yeah, yeah, yeah, you would have— it would have to be a lot to even then start entertaining that idea because like $100 grand, we could— you could easily go and earn $100 grand in, yeah, corporate job.

Tommy: Even if it was like, even if it was like, even if you're looking at like the breakfast show host, they're getting $800,000 or whatever. The— I think that what we are building, we know that even for like the next 3 years, it could just be like a decent sort of, you know, paying ourselves $60 grand a year type of deal. But then the reward after that in regards to clout, just based on audience size and just the amount of people that we've connected with, like we're building for the future and we feel like a sidestep would be radio, which isn't for the future. Yeah, yeah. And it's also the other thing.

Josh: How much you got? Yeah, what do you want to say? What are you offering?

Tommy: What do you think? What's the—

Callum: from the trio?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, definitely. What's the— what's the— uh, big boy's back. What's the— fuck, it really isn't. Watch the video of this one, guys.

Callum: Um, let's pack it back for the deep comment, mate.

Tommy: What's the, um, no, what's your perspective of, uh, what we do from, from being sort of an outside perspective?

Callum: To be honest, I, I look at the stuff you guys have done, um, like I said before, I actually found it because I, I found Tommy kind of— I've actually, you know, I was being a bit of a creep on you. I'm like, oh no, this guy started following him, what he actually was doing. But similar ages, you know what I mean? So I kind of can relate to a lot of the the kind of experiences that both of you are going through. You talk about your partner a fair bit, which is quite funny. And you talk about kind of you're in that early stage of starting a family and things like that, which I kind of find, you know, something I can kind of relate to in regards to the family stuff. Just relax, my partner.

Tommy: Sending all the wrong signals.

Callum: But yeah, but for someone my age, I can kind of relate to, you know, what you guys are doing. I enjoyed the consistency of it. It's, um, but I can imagine, um, it's kind of like playing professional sport in a way. And I always thought about this the other day that I kind of want to talk to you guys, um, a bit about it, is when you devote so hard to something, just like you guys are doing with this project that you're on, is that— and like me, I'm playing professional football, you're going to make a lot of sacrifices. You have to say no a lot to people. And yeah, and you guys it's every day. Yeah, it's every day. So I can imagine there's a lot of things you have to sacrifice and actually say no to. Does that resonate with you?

Josh: Say no enough and they stop asking.

Callum: They do.

Josh: Well, I think you say like you've got your dialed-in routine, it just, it becomes what you do. And so when it becomes what you do, it makes it easier sort of for that consistent, for consistency and being in the bubble, right? It's like you're around people that are also loving and doing what you do. And so we, we surround ourselves with a bunch of people that are in media or creating content or storytelling, filmmaking, that space. So it, um, so yeah, it becomes that sort of bubble which allows you to sort of live it.

Callum: From the outside, my admiration is more around the fact that you're prepared to actually forecast what you want to do for the next decade. Yeah. And commit to it. Yeah, that's something that I find quite, um, yeah, well done.

Tommy: I think it's like maybe the missing piece a lot of times with what we've done previously. So I think like you've— if this was our first thing that we'd ever had a crack at and we're like 10 years, it would be a little bit more delusional than what it is now. Whereas the, the fact that we've had so many things and most of the things that haven't worked out haven't worked out just because we've given up. And so I think that that's part of it too, which is like like, we don't know what the daily talk show will be in regards to, you know, will, uh, will all cars become smarter because everyone will have a SIM card with a smart speaker in their car, and so they'll just be listening to streaming stuff? Will Spotify push Apple to be more competitive in regards to how they show their podcasts and what they do? Will there be better integration with music and with spoken word, and who's going to be servicing that content not only that, but who is going to be servicing it for an Australian audience. And so I think you put all those things together and then you look at like a radio network, you look at like Southern Cross Austereo, or you look at the Novas or the ARNs, and you think about how much money it costs to do what they do. It feels like a bit of a no-brainer in regards to if we— all we have to do is just stay on and then it will work out. It's like the 10 years, we know that we're going to do it for 10 years, but there's actually heaps of shit that we haven't said. Like, we don't know, like, what the daily talk show could be. Could be an ensemble show with multiple Gronks on it every single day. We could have— we could be doing a show from different parts of the world. We could have a London, a Toronto, uh, you know, the daily talk show from those places. Endeavour Hills represent our actual, um, old motion graphics if you have a look at it, up until like 50 episodes ago had Endeavour Hills in there.

Josh: Terry probably knows.

Tommy: Is that how you know? No, it's just because I've mentioned—

Callum: You mentioned about the footy club.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Do you know, like, um, do you know your junior footy club song? Do you remember?

Josh: Yeah, they're always a, like, an AFL song ripped off. Allman Blues was just Melbourne.

Tommy: I'll start mine, it might trigger you. Okay, to leave. Yeah, here we go. Because we haven't done this before. Jokes. When was it? We are the Eagles, the greatest team of all.

Josh: Is that West Coast?

Tommy: And we're tough and we're always on the ball. All our opponents shake in fear as soon as the team appears. Till the final bell, we give them hell. We are the Daredevil Hills.

Callum: Yeah, well done. Takes a lot of guts to do that. I actually can't remember what my My one was.

Tommy: Well, what's the Swans—

Josh: the first line of the Swans, what is that?

Callum: Cheer cheer, the red and the white, honour the name by day and by night. I know what you were doing, you're trying to—

Josh: what's the next bit?

Tommy: Is there certain rules around all the singing and stuff? Like, I guess, 2019, do people get more around like the anthem or things like that? Like, what's the deal with stuff?

Callum: Nah, it's just a given. You just go in there, we have Kenny. You might have seen on Channel 7, we've got the old guy that comes in and It's right. Yeah, we love you so, and let's start singing together. And they go, yeah, Kenny, whatever. And then, you know, he sits in there and, yeah, no, that's just a given. It's just a traditional thing now.

Tommy: So great.

Josh: We need it. We need our own song, don't we?

Tommy: Something to go out with. I'm excited though that when you're in Melbourne next and you're coming off the back of a game, we can have everything set up. We can have oranges.

Josh: What do you got more pull at, the SCG or MCG? SCG. I mean, cheating in regards to—

Tommy: he really thinks that we're just pulling for a ticket.

Josh: No, I know, I'm thinking like, get you a ticket, relax. If we were to do a podcast, oh, underground, like somewhere at a venue, should we come to the SCG?

Callum: I reckon I could, I could definitely help you out at the SCG. Okay. Um, in terms of the MCG, maybe 50/50. Yes. Yeah, depending if, uh, if you play well.

Tommy: Should we just be on standby with our mics? Yeah.

Callum: Oh no, I should get a few, um, should get a few of the boys on. I'm sure they'll tell a few stories.

Tommy: That should be— because all I was asking from KO was a free subscription and I would mention them every sports segment that I do.

Callum: Well, Callum Mills, our, um, one of our players, is one of the poster boys. Okay, so yeah, so it's all linking, it's all working.

Tommy: Okay, 97, can you write that down? All right, great. Thanks, Cal, it's been great having you on. No, uh, we enjoy— I feel like, um, there can sometimes be the cliché of sports people don't necessarily like have a personality. But I think you're a great example of one that has one. That's nice. Was that nice?

Josh: Was that nice?

Callum: It was actually really good. My turn now. No, thanks, guys.

Josh: Well done.

Tommy: Thanks, buddy. It's the Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. What's your problem, 97?

Callum: That is just outrageous.

Tommy: That's the cliché though, isn't it? Yeah, but it's like a little bit Starwick, a little bit serious, a little bit— it's like this guy did fucking theatre studies.

Callum: Yeah, that's pretty funny. I got a fucking C.

Tommy: What were you gonna say, Sebbs?

Callum: Oh, it's just like, it's, it's great you've got a personality. That was literally what you said. That's good.

Tommy: I love it.

Callum: I love it.

Tommy: And also, um, we're doing this thing where we were talking about mail and sending cash in the mail. And we want to test it out so uh we've told anyone to send us any form of currency to our PO Box just want to see if it gets to us so don't ask questions Cal!

Josh: P.O.

Tommy: Box 400 Abbotsford Victoria 3067 any currency could be US dollars which we like and where will you put the money? Oh pockets or course pockets oh no no no sorry mate we're not a fucking social enterprise No, we'll do something great. We might. You know what? Darts.

Josh: Oh yeah, we buy—

Tommy: buy a packet of darts.

Josh: It's a crowdfunded dartboard.

Tommy: I love that idea. Yeah. All right. See you guys. Have a good one. See you, bye.