#543 – Fergus Watts On Building Bastion Collective/
- December 11, 2019
Fergus Watts – Founder & Executive Chairman of Bastion Collective
Fergus is the founder of Bastion Collective, the largest independent communications agency in Australia.
Bastion Collective has taken a different approach to the creative industry by creating an environment that facilitates partnerships and teamwork between creative agencies that allow for a variety of services to be provided under one roof.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
– Finding great people
– What to look at when acquiring businesses
– Big brands and individual creators
– Employees and loyalty
– Fergus’ relationship with failure
– When to quit
– Business leadership
– The Australian vs US market
– Fixing a short term problem vs finding the right fit
Bastion Collective: https://bastioncollective.com/
Email us: email@example.com
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 543 in the studio we've got Fergus what's welcome, buddy
James. Thank you.
founder of the company that first gave me a my first paycheck for freelance. Really look,
Well, we're talking yesterday, about when you start out in business, do you not lead with 0001? Because I know it's the first job
to be a bit tricky about it.
So make sure that all of our proposals went out with lot, you know? 5492 so
I reckon I didn't market I reckon it would have been 0001 I'll tell you the quick story. So when I moved up to Sydney, I left radio and I was like wanting to get into video wasn't quite sure. And I'm sitting in a cafe, looking probably lonely and your brother walks in jack and he's is going on man. We have a bit of a chat and I told him that I was kind of looking to find some work and he said, What do you skills? I love Jackie's a real straight shooter, just like you said, what are your skills and I told him video, but leave it with me. I'm going to call it that day. It's a gas seebeck from from the Sydney Office of best Ian. And he says coming back, and then that's how I got my 0001 job as a freelance video
guy, and sorry, Bastion collective, I feel like I know what is the business that's very good at buying businesses.
I've done a bit of that. Yeah, so we're a marketing services group. So we're a collection of marketing agency. So we've got 10 agencies here in Australia. Most of those we've we've acquired along the journey. So acquire small independent agencies and then we, when they all come together as a collective, then that can provide a fully integrated solution for clients. Big and small
is the pitch you were talking I heard another podcast about the owner operator model and how you want to keep that within bashing collective? What are some of the challenges of having that type? I guess that personality if you're used to running your own business? How do they all play nicely? Well, that's
that is the million dollar question that that in our industry in the marketing services industry, but they're down to date days, they're very big and the very small and there's a big gap in the middle isn't really in the middle. And most of the time, the very small of stout about people that worked at the very big spread out and they said, I don't want to deal with all of the big business stuff, I want to do my own thing. And after a period of time, I small independent can only get to a certain size. And so then they say, Well, what else is there? How do I get access to bigger clients? How can I grow the business and all that sort of stuff, and that's then when we coming? But the reality of that is that as much as we, you know, block to think that we're a lot less red tape and a lot less politics and a lot less of the bullshit from a lot of the big companies. You're still not running your own shop down the road, right? If you're one of those entrepreneurs, it's come into a group. So you've still got to work with our unified systems and, and some of that sort of stuff. So it's always, it's always difficult, and it's always a challenge. But a big part of it is making sure that the people we bring in are people that recognise that and can adjust to that as they go. And that's, you know, that's, that's a better, huge component of not just making an acquisition based on the financial transaction, but making an acquisition based on the PayPal transaction, and they're running an organisation, you know, based on our three values, and the first one is make each other's lives better.
And so, I was going to say, how do you find great people, but it's using the values of the business to find the great people is that
yeah, I mean, it finding great people more often than not is based on is based on referrals. Right. So that your example with jack then got that is how business works. That almost a referral. You know, I recommend you because I like you You're a good guy and then you come in with a warm introduction into whoever needs your particular service
I regretted it because I was in the office and CD coming might
not gonna ride with it tried to you ready man Nando's chips he's gonna say
what about Mr. Nice and Can you can you get a gauge on whether he's a nice guy
whether he's a good guy looks nice I
got him up with an astrologer. So what are the blind spots that a lot of these owner operators have? Because I guess they come in and you get to see the friction points.
Well, the blind spots in joining a group is every male.
I guess if you're, if you're used to running your own shop, you can tell stories about who you are as a business and what you stand for what people are buying, versus when they come into a collection. Where they need the shared values? What are some of the things that they said the limiting stories? Okay, so,
so part of the part of the challenge generally is the autonomy. Right? So when you're running your own show down the road, you can have full autonomy now the the stock reality. I mean, the reality of business, generally without being too much of Doomsday is that it's exceptionally difficult and very, very few people make any money out of starting my own company. I meant, and that is, and that is very true in the service game. However, even if you're not making money, you're still running your own show. You're still live in the embroid in the day to night and the reality is the majority of people especially in the service, business, they, they just love what they do. Right. Same as you guys. You guys love doing this. People that make advertising or do PR or research experts or create content, love creating the content right live, create loving shooting the craft and the skill. And even though they might be on their own 10 people down the road in, in a small office, they're still doing it for themselves, and they're still creating the content, they're still doing all this stuff when when you come into our place we we operate as a as a business that needs to perform and perform consistently. Right? And so that removes a level of freedom that right not that it's all about the numbers or any of that sort of stuff. But they are important because if one link in the chain starts to fall apart, that that has a flow and effective or announced so that autonomy does get lost a bit. And the other challenges as a business grows and this is a big reason why they choose to join us in the first place is as if you are exceptional at creating content or making advertising or whatever you generally and build your company and you build it to a point where it has More staff right now every time you have more staff you have tighter cash flow when you have when you have more staff you need a bigger office and when you have a bigger office you have more more locked in payments every month and before you know with 20 staff you've got you know x hundred thousand dollars that you have to make every month just to break even to keep the thing alive then these I job problems in these issues about people complaining that I don't have a car park and then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that goes with that that is just the day to day reality you in Chrome on
to come on
I can imagine that things are headed for their sustainability business they want everyone in the trying to
get to all of those factors come into the come into it. So so one of the things that people find difficult, it it's a difficult question to ask in isolation because it's about the entire journey of a business, right? So there's anyone sitting out there going, you all want to start my business starting your own business, the actual day one it's not that difficult. It's day 265 then it's day 540 then in the problems the same problems it isn't the bigger or their song evolved or their whatever their and that's the evolution of running a business which ultimately gets you to a point where you think I might want to sell this or I might want to join a group that does something biggest So
being a cop looks like a great idea yeah
join the academy yeah exactly and then walk into a indoor correct and that you have to then deal with
that like that's that's the reality that people don't say and that's the reality of running a business all looks cool service at least the majority Thomas gripe, I enjoy what I do. Well, we all like what we do. But the journey the full journey of someone running a business and building their life. That's the story rather than isolated piece of it was a bit annoying that that happened riding quad with grey with this decision.
The brands that you've acquired, you're looking to find people who are wanting to make the leap but can't do it within this specific model.
We want people that want to be able to build the business more than they can. But so in the marketing services world, if you want to go pitch on McDonald's, Coca Cola nation keyer these big brands you want to get pitch on that there is just some reality around around that one you have to be able to deliver the work at scale. That's a difficult thing to do in a in a paper business because if if I engage you buying guide you to do one video, you can do it. One person buying gives you 10 videos, you can do a fine guys you do 1000 videos, you can't do it. Right. You know multiple staff and is scallop really quickly on pi you for 90 days. So you go to pi five staff to deliver it for 90 days which you can't cash but it's all that reality that get that goes with that. And that's that's just the truth of it. They made it The reality that if a brand of that note is going to pay, you know, whatever, a million dollars, whatever that number is a big chunky number to a to an agency to deliver a service. That's an agency No one's ever heard of. It's a tough sell a lot. If it's, if it's an agency that's been around for 50 6070 years, and is a global agency and everything else, well, then it's a lot
easier. An insurance policy essentially, is
a lot of that, right? So there's just a big reality of all of those different options, and those different variables. So what we look for people that say, I want to get access to a slightly bigger brand, I want to get access to a place that has 400 clients going through it every year. I want to get access to other services so I can provide an integrated solution to our clients. And, you know, I want to be be part of something bigger half the time it's I just want to have some peers. You know,
what about the health check, I guess you've looked a little books to work out which companies to buy? What are you looking at?
I am a very, very basic operator when it comes to this stuff, and I look at very basic money in money. Can They Sell revenue? Right? can make sell enough clients to generate enough revenue? Is that top line number good enough? Can they deliver that work and acceptable margin? So if you sell a million bucks worth of advertising work, and it costs you $1.1 million to deliver okays, right, like you just lost 100 grand, and that that happens a lot. Because in the creative industry, creative people who run that will say, well, it's all about the work. And it is all about the work until you can't pay the bills. Right. And so
what's not really business at that point, it's going backwards, but that's what happens a lot of the
time and the service business. So is there a discipline around that?
And then that's it. Yeah, I mean, what about debt, so if you Go into a business and you're like, Okay, they've got $150,000 they've got this equipment and all that sort of thing. How do you deal with that when you're acquiring a company? So that's part of part of the acquisition, it comes off a cost, it comes off the acquisition price. That's pretty standard for generally how that works. The reality is most of the agency will doesn't have at that size doesn't have its people.
The people the main
salaries. Exactly, yeah. You don't have to go and invest in, in in big equipment or I mean casually do but it but it not.
What have you found in you said this sort of that old lay of the land of the, you know, the big brands going with the bigger agencies that can service them? With the amount of people starting businesses these days, these bit starting but there are a lot more boutique marketing or people using their personal brand to be able to connect with these bigger brands, maybe not to service them at that scale. But have you seen these bigger brands, pulling in some of the money They were spinning at that scale game, and now dispersing it to the individual creator.
Yes. So the end that's, yeah, oh, I have this conversation with people who are individual creators a lot. And, and they, they asked advice on building a business or, you know, how do you take it from what I do now to, you know, what you do? And I say, Well, why do you want to do that? Because you can make a lot of money as an individual credit, because a lot of those times they, you know, you're highly talented people, right? Like highly talented people creating very good content that can go and execute the work really well. Now, they can't do it at scale. But there are a lot more brands saying, Well, you know, this one particular person creates really good creative output for us, does it in a niche area. That works right for us, right and that person Zero overheads, you know, very little cost mom and dad's
paying the rent
control system. So these are these are a benefit in that and for anybody, you know that it's doing that is absolutely nothing wrong with being a purist and and being passionate about what you do and delivering your work because there's plenty of content
about freelancers working for agencies, what have you learned about that?
Oh, that stops into me.
That's a lot of it's a big part of the industry. And it's a good part of the industry because ideation is a difficult thing. How many have an idea that people are going to resonate with you can ultimately sell a product that is a difficult thing to do. And, and it being you know, with, if you didn't have the freelance market, then agencies would only have the exact same people coming up with all these every time now it can't work to a certain extent. But of course, you need some fresh ideas. Now the beauty of our place is that we've got Everyone in the, in the one place, right? We've got access to multiple different things that come from multiple different disciplines that have been put, you know, that have different expertise but all unify and work together. So we constantly engage different parts of the business to come up with different ideas and different planning matrix and different execution as part of that, so that freshness, which is a big part of the freelance world, the freshness is, we feel has been that issue has been solved by our collective of agencies, rather than just having one agency
to be doing the acquisition, hire the Aqua hire type of model, do you end up with more Deadwood? Because you're not in the hiring process? Or is there a certain way that these things sort of filter out over time?
They do filter out over time. Yeah.
Yeah, the biggest thing I've learned It's nothing new. Nothing is not Richard Branson's anything. It's the same in business every time you think you're fine. You know?
Yeah, right. Unless you got an airline, you probably want to get that done.
But every time every time you think you down bad and something good happened. Yeah. So like this, this business is just a constant for up and down of good and bad. And multiple changes and and we've been in this 10 years Now the good thing about being in 10 years is very few things that come up now that we haven't experienced yet. Right? So we've experienced the good, the bad in every aspect of it. And now like, as things come up, it's like, it's not shit, how do I deal with this? It's like, Oh, my God, is this happening again? That we, we've done this four times already, you know, and that and I always try to make them on the run businesses and stuff like that. You know, it's like, I can't believe we can't solve this one problem that's come up four times, and they're like, Man, it's four times in 10 years. Like a You know, get over it. Like, that's life it happens, right? And that's that's just the truth of business.
And when you say 10 years ago said that, did you understand what the success actually look like for you then?
I don't have a clue. I was 22 years old. I, I started this business after a very short, an unsuccessful football career then got a job in advertising, it should be six or eight months. I kind of thought there is a way to partner with people who are experts in their field. And then I could do whatever they didn't want to do. That was basically put employee there was the premise now that
does that part of the reason of why I can't be an employee partner
I was a bit Yeah, because I I started I was selling for this this advertising business and and I was, you know that this so and then the God of China, you know, my boss would change my job only anymore are you doing this? Well, I don't want to do that. This is what's happening. And I was like, This is bullshit. And then an ex con of a Kickstarter band into thinking I'm gonna go do something for myself. Did he ever make he died? Yeah.
That's how that actually happening.
He's not thinking about leaving
my house to run the blonde tips approximate stuff. It's a lot harder than that. Oh, yeah,
it was a full head.
That's been six months hasn't Yeah, yeah, it's done pretty well. How do you feel about it?
I quite like it. consider getting it done again. Yeah, really gotta say that with a huge amount of
was it was done by Rachel vitolo who works at Joey scan days out was she's the number one colorist in Australia.
Is that right?
And so, looking at employees and how they operate and seeing the Other side so obviously the frustration that you had there versus now being on the other side of the coin running a business, what sort of empathy do you have for employees versus business owner? Yeah, good question is
it's evolved over time is the honest answer.
When we have we have sort of this blanket rule like Do whatever you want, just get the job done. Right. Which in theory is great in reality and and over time as our businesses got bigger and and we're in two countries now and all that stuff that you know, part of me just like just turn up to your work right like there is the on the on the dark days I go Geez, it just be easier if just everyone was a bit robotic and just turned up, did the job went home, but the net sucks the life out of the place right on the good guys. It's like we want everyone to bring the absolute full self to life. to work every day and I you know, I'd like we have more good days and bad days but that and that's it's certainly changed over time as a 22 year old coming out and be hiring our first employee it was I was down for a woman called Caroline Macmillan and
what was their role? She
She was a real lock just I think she was an account manager I think was a total but she was a jack of all trades used to just choose to keep your finger on the straight and narrow and would have been described as the
first hire was an account manager. So who's servicing those? Like so you got the account manager who's bringing the work or doing all that then would you have freelances? Is that the idea?
Yeah, so we had so this was the first employee wasn't was advertising businesses. And, and the guy I partnered with was a very, very good, high end creative, creative guy. And and so he was the draw capital, a lot of the work he deliver a lot of the topping creative and then a lot of the execution within bring it Pulling of the journey began to that but you need you know that our business any business it is only as good as the people within it and and the people within it are only good if they believe in what you're doing and I believe that you know they can grow themselves and it always gives me this shit when is all this talk about you know millennials you know stick it out long enough that I do it in it that's true that out but why should you know like if part of it is a we've got a we've got an average tenure every 10 years, people stay below 30 stay kind of three years which is fairly good. Above 30 those that a little bit longer generally people kids don't chop and change as much. You know, an afro MCs Will you wouldn't want them Stein more than five years, generally speaking Right now we have some that do and they're terrific. And and when they do and they continue to evolve the business, they bang on, right? That's where you want life is. But a lot of the time you don't get that but nor should you mind, it's this thing about you know, there's no loyalty anymore. This loyalty says it's bullshit, right? Like, what are they loyalty for because you employed them and then pay them a wage I live at the word Yeah, and especially in our industry and people boss Eros. Right. They really work if hand to flesh out of them. And so this unless the company can continue to provide opportunities for them to grow and more develop a big life. Why, you know, why? Why is that a terrible thing that they then life afterward, after a three year period or whatever, you know,
you serve, they're part of the your part in their journey
to do whatever they want and they've served their part in our journey, right? And that's the gig and that's how it works and we fun you know, it's it's this Good part of life, right? Like, and it just it's one of those things that just yeah, it's generally I'd like to talk about it and say, you know, the is the values because they just chop and change their jobs and stuff like that. So that might join the real world. Why? Yeah, you know, people are going to evolve. And the reality is you can't pay paying stuff more you just kept right. You'd love to love to give people a pay rise every second year and you'd give them meaningful pyrolysis. But they just kept in a business. So they have to go somewhere else. And it shouldn't have to wait 20 years to be able to go and get the next evolution of the law.
Yeah, I'm always really impressed when I see or hear about businesses that have formulated the business plan before they've even started. So Nick stone from bluestone land, he developed the business concept, the idea, I think Business School, was it when he
was still while he was still doing the investment management, banking and stuff. And it wasn't until it was really taking off that he's like,
Yeah, probably should Well, there's two to this. Different Types I mean, you guys want to see 30 self so it's interesting in the way you guys are doing it. I think it's two different types of operators. There's guys like Stoney who I know from school days and 40 days very disciplined very intellectual, great planner great strategy guy you know he's a pretty hardcore style you know why why operating these discipline right and he's very successful in the end he's very good. And then I don't know a number goes on then this goes on man number go, it just had not Yeah, just thought, shit. I'll just start something I'll sell something to someone and then I'll sell something else and then that thing Yeah, yeah.
Was it a job at the step where you just creating a job for yourself at the start, or did you always have the vision that it was going to be the biggest thing?
Yeah, no, no, I don't know if we all remember is the honest answer. Like I think initially it was just I just want to go and do some for myself.
But I think I always I thought
I think I always thought that we're going to build a business you know, I mean,
where does that come from? Is it from families that reading books is it
what I not? Yeah, I don't know. He's he understands my my my old man so I've been very lucky to work with my model man and my brother for pretty much the entirety of Bastion mouth man to be my mentor and taught me everything I know and, and has been a great advisor to me over the journey jack, my brother is a saleable vestroia businesses, he's an exceptional operator in and we really complement each other very well. He works. He works on the on the client, he deals with all the CEOs of our agencies, he runs the operations of the business, I look at their expansion and growth, their future stuff.
Well, it's great to have a CEO that you can actually give a data to.
And so so we've been very lucky in that I've learned a huge amount of those guys. And then also the The people that come into our business and you know, these are experienced people, right, that are running their own business and much more experienced than I am, or certainly I was, and then they, you know, I've learned a lot of them over the journey. So it's been I've been quite lucky in that regard and always have really good people around me and then we've had great advisors You know, we've had very high profile advisors. We've had great industry guys we've had we've had people around us that we can learn a lot from and which has been volatile you know, in our success
it seems like you've got a comfortability with failure and pointing out your flaws. It was interesting, we were talking to an external affair talking about like what
is failure look like?
Is like failure is not an option right and it's very costly was like we were was it Nick for a while that we were on straight tend to on ours like our Finder. Remember, we're trying to get into smart so remember a happy moment before it's like I was not happy. You're
always a great I'm
back in, you know you're on it. And I was like, oh, there's something in this competitive sportsmanship type of stuff. That's pretty intense. Seems like you probably have a bit of a different perspective.
I'm, I'm very, I don't know if I'm okay with failure, but it is a big part of life. Yeah. And it's an and it's a big part of all up there in your kitchen. There is a quote by JFK that says that it says, you know, only those who fail greatly can never achieve greatly. Right. And then there's another great quote by Winston Churchill that says success is the ability to move from family to family with any any loss of enthusiasm, you know, and that that is so true. I think I was exceptionally lucky because I was a first round draft pick at a school. I was meant to be a buddy. Very good. Forward. I had a whole bunch of injuries. I was too slow on my football career. failed miserably and it failed on a very public stage right so in Adelaide uh you know there's a reasonable profile or MA in Adelaide and and people really let me know about how much I would let them down and the support is Dan club down you know as I'm walking down the street and metalizer is implied in the Atlantic grandfather with 40,000 people I knew all about it started the other shot not happy with me.
Social media is heavy, is it? jack? What's he like getting thumped? Yeah, it's
but all that all that sort of stuff happen. And so having the failure in my footy crews went to be my husband to be my life.
Very public, big failure that affected my life and completely changed it all by the age of
2122. So did you have to reframe what you said? Someone who had that relationship with Valeo or did you have to
purely by never had that until that that moment, not until the young, like 2122 I was like, shit, I was meant to be 35 at this point and I'm at 21 and what the hell am I gonna do? And but it you know that a carnival set I mean, it was a very traumatic experience in my footy career but it will be got to be okay with the family and we have failed many, many many times in our business and I'm really cool that luck emerges what you that? I don't know. The The answer is probably my family. But I think it just comes quite naturally to me. Like I was I was listening to a podcast for years ago because I always because I was sort of reflecting on this. And I thought man it's a bit screwy in the head because I can file and then lot Forget about it. The Nick will not forget about it, but I'm psychopathic. So
that happened, whatever move on right?
Yeah. And I was listening to thing with Richard Branson a few years ago. And he was talking, they were talking about all the virgin stuff that they had failed. And, and they asked him a question like, Do you ever think about he goes, he goes, the second we were disarmed, like the second that meeting happens, we just saw Ron was shutting down virgin Brides, because I'm never thinking about again,
it was a virgin brides.
Is that a? Is that a building the muscle of being able to deal with failure? Or is it a muscle to be able to push finally to the side? You know, like, Is it is it building is that actually resilience? Or is it some kind of, you know, laser beam focus, that it nothing outside of my periphery doesn't matter.
It's both it finally, as dismissive as I could potentially sandbar saying it and whatever it is hurtful in every way, every time something files are We went to London, we had two good years in London. We're one year that was a bad year in London. But it's painful, right? Every time we've had a business that hasn't worked, there's, there's this flow on effect people lose their jobs. It's it is it is emotionally painful and hurtful in every way possible. Right. And that's and, you know, the copy dismissed at the same time. If you don't try, and you don't open yourself up to that pain, you'll never actually succeed because we've had so many more successes that we have failures, but the file is that it might be 234 significant ones. They're the ones that hurt. They're the ones that put lawns on your face, right? They're the ones that really, you know, they put some put some hate on you in, in your in your heart, but they're also the baseline that allows you to then build a big business. We're now in America, we've got 40 on staff and America we've got a good business over there that's really gone very well and we wouldn't have done that without the failure in the UK. So you got to be able to do that but you've also got to be wired a bit that that you can just let it be you can move past it because we can't move past and a lot of people don't you know,
maybe there's something in failing big first when you're young because if you start failing small and then you start moving away because failure is finally you feel shit about it. And so it's it could be a resilience in failing big not saying go buddy take out.
Well, yeah, consideration returns in regards to how sad you can feel. You're gonna feel sad on the small stuff. Might as well go for the big stuff and feel equally sad.
Yeah, well, if we don't get that's the thing. It's like, if we don't give it a real red hot crack. Yeah, just filing with a phone crack. Yeah, I definitely have. I've had a bunch of different businesses.
I still I still don't think we've found the model the thing we're still working on. Now, vision in ways that we, we almost know how we know our vision, but we, we don't know yet how to get there with what we're doing. Because you've got short term and long term and sometimes there's short term opportunities that could create sort of sustainable business, but it's not necessarily the exact business you want to create. But I was on quitting, because I was thinking about like, what it takes to like, at what point do you quit and you're talking on another podcast about the going into a room knowing that it was done and that we're going to sort of let you go in the funny thing. When you had it. It's the classic case of like, Am I going to quit or am I going to get fired? have you built the resilience to quit? Or do you? Do you wait until you're backed into a corner?
It's a good question. I would say. In business you have to quit early. Because you can lose big
but it's it's not so yeah you have to decide in business because there's a hole you can't you can't string people out because there's other people involved generally music if you can string people that you can do the right thing by them and generally wrong thing but bother me is calling something early and and in there is obviously the financial exposure as well if you let a thing was insolvent as soon as if you keep bloating the decision of Mark I'm good next month or Mark I'm good the month after and then there's a big haul. And and the ones where I've made bad decisions, the ones where I've tried to do the right, I've tried to be nice. And I've tried to you know, keep that going and the impact of that's too hard and then, you know, ultimately you're trying to be trying to be nice is different from trying to do the right thing
is it? Have you moved away from having a hard conversation? In those times, because I think I'd probably go to the nice or the, the thing that is a bit more comfy, then go back. I know I need to have this hard combo, but I just hold off a little bit longer.
That's that's what I've done a badly. Yeah, yeah, when I've done it well and is have the hard conversation immediately straight away. No, I'm comfortable in that environment and being able to say that and give direct advice, whether it's to my friends or my work colleagues and staff or anyone very happy to give it you know, direct advice, take a month or two or whatever as it goes. So it's a it's a really important component of doing that. And again, people if you live your life by saying, trying to do the right thing, and the right thing is distinctly different from being nice. Because the right thing to individuals, helps an individual get better it helps him individually improve it helps them learn in their life. People who are just nice all the time is not a challenge. There's no growth, there's no evolution and that that, that is what ultimately provides a lack of leadership. And it provides a lack of direction and nuggets in the
What about short term versus long term so they could be the right thing to do. Now, that could potentially be the wrong thing to do in the future. So for instance, like businesses this time of year, cash flow, people stop, you know, doing work and all that sort of thing. trying to work out like Tommy and I working out how do we make sure that December and January looks good into FEHB while still maintaining our overarching vision of what we want 2020 today?
Well, it's it's a good question, and a lot of people get caught up on the overarching vision. Sometimes just go do what you gotta do. Yeah, right. And there's nothing wrong with it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying revenues like December and jam because everyone's a why we need to do a couple of things December in January that just allow us to get through this period, and then we'll get back on track right? There's absolutely nothing wrong with it the amount of people all the same businesses at file because they want to stick so true to that vision in that direction. They've got six months to read a business. Because that vision or that direction didn't work. Like there's just, there's just nothing you can have the greatest idea in the world but unless other people are going to buy it, and they're going to engage with it. It's not worth anything right now. Now, you got to offset that with you know, the Henry Ford quote, that if you ask people what they wanted, they say faster horses they know they want to cars. So you've got his home with, you know, the great creators of those who have whoever lead industries lead product, lead people or lead society into areas that the society didn't know they needed to be. And the leader took them there. Yeah, Nelson Mandela was a great leader in taking a society where they needed to be not where they were. And that's my that's my big knock on leadership. Generally in In the world, whether it's in politics, whether it's in business is, there's so much polling done, I'm gonna ask you what you want, I'm going to ask you what you want. And and I'm going to ask everyone what they want. And I'm going to then act on what they want. Now that's good to a certain extent, but you're the leader, the leaders job is to take a group that primarily is just trying to die to die, just get through the laws and do what they do. You've been put in charge of business or society of whatever, to be able to propel this thing forward, grab business leaders have vision, and say, we are going here along the journey, we need to step off that path a little bit to ultimately get to where we need to get to, that this is where we're going. Right? political leaders do the same thing. We're taking this society from where we are today to where we need to be, not necessarily wherever all wants to go. And we've seen that time and time and time again, the civil rights movement society we've, you know, we've seen, we've seen those who have been afraid to act because of backlash or because of They're perceived, you know, business, especially creative industry, you know, always selling out or we're doing those sort of things. We sometimes you got to do what you need to do to get to ultimately where that vision is taking you where you want to go.
When you've got all the sort of businesses within the business. Is that how you see with Bastion? Is everyone running their own books? Or how does Yeah,
yeah. So yeah, so everyone's got their own entity and run their own panels. And,
and so if you are having a meeting with one of the CEOs or whatever, within that, that sort of area, and they've got a cash flow problem. How are you entering in as a leader does it at that point? Are you talking very specific tactics around that? Okay, how do we make it work now? Or is that the time to pull out the strategy and go and circle?
To answer their question, listen to some specificity around around things like cash file or people management or any of these, these operational things in business to have we made with with the CEOs I met with CEOs once a month jack deals with them on a day to day basis, helping them through all those different issues that come up in business and all that different stuff. And there is also is also part of my job primarily to be able to pull out the strategy when appropriate, when we going off course and saying Hang on, let's not get distracted over here, let's stick with what we're doing. Because we know that works. And let's keep going. It's also my job to say well bang on the strategy, it all kind of works is now the time to be able to do the next thing. It's now the time to be able to just push it out a little bit more because we build a good baseline to be able to create an opportunity for growth. And that's, that's one of the good things about our group and the structure of a group is that it puts us in a position where the CEOs and the business owner Going off right on the die to die, find the claws deliver the work for the clients look after the staff execute Ah, businesses strategy. And then it's my job to say right? How do we grow this thing by 100% year on year not just 10%. And and it's that balance that is a constant push and pull of when's the right time to do all this stuff?
So do you have shared services or you? Like, is everyone invoicing each other for time? How does that work?
Yeah, it's a bit of that way of shared services like finance it
paper and cultural recruitment, that some stuff, marketing, anything, anything that everyone uses. So there's a centralised service around that that everyone should chips into. And then and then the, but everyone operates on their own accord. And then they use the mean in invoicing to each other. But we find the best way to make everyone or to get over I'm working together is to have as little of that as possible. Know why is that because you came on. Yeah. Because if I care about you, I'm more likely to help you. And if you care about me, you're more likely to help me. And so creating a culture of people caring about each other and working as a team, they generally give a shit about each other, then you are in a better position to be able to have a better working relationship if I'm only helping you because I'm going to get a kickback from the wiki when it's it's hot.
So for new businesses starting out, they've focused so hard on the vision to get it to a point where it's actually working. Once you get it to a point where it's working, is it a matter of like, have you guys found you're like, we're banking down now? Because we've got something that works versus spending too much time on achieving a greater thing or expand? Yeah, there's
a combination of that stuff. So businesses.
Like for me up, I am most comfortable when I'm starting new businesses, doing new things, creating new stuff coming up with a new idea. And that's my sweet spot. Now we got to a point three years ago where that wasn't good anymore, right? Because I used to do a different thing every second week, right? It was always a joke in the company that I'd come in. And all of a sudden, I was some other idea. And we got and doing that. Now, that got us to where it got us to about three years ago. Then I kept going for another two years, and made a shitload of mistakes and put a heap of pressure on the company and suck a lot of cash out of the business, put a lot of resource pressure on the business. Because I was going well, this has worked for five, six years. I'll just keep doing it. And just not that's just not how it works. Because just because working for six years doesn't mean it's going to work for the next five or six years. So my greatest discipline now in what I do is do less. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life is with a business now with 250 staff across two countries. You know, our our growth in Australia and how we're going to get not just our growth and how we're going to get fundamentally better at what we do is but more consistently doing the work we already do with the people that do.
Is that a shift from the original? Because I guess like from an outsider's perspective, you guys are building the mega agency sort of thing. And so you start the business you're acquiring, you're building the mega agency. Is it a bit of a change of heart saying a fact like, let's stop acquiring and let's just work at it? He's from a
jack loves it. Yeah. Because Jack's wired differently. Because jack, just he wants to run the business, right? Do the work, work with work with the CEOs and create an environment that that is conducive to creating the best creative output and executing the best work, he just wants to get access to more clients, you know, be able to provide a better integrated solution that What a does all want to go and acquire 10 more agencies and ball to me and and you know everything into this Bahamut now, so he was he always over the years that we were doing more and more and more, it was always like yeah, okay, do you think maybe we should just chill out for a moment now and and so this sits really well with him now. Right? it it's it's fine with me because of what's needed to be done but it's not it's not natural in my personality is it a
holding back on being creative? Because I can imagine the guys creative who's coming up with all these business ideas and wanting to go and do this, that and the other
it's it's holding back on on the entrepreneurial thing to do something different. Yeah, what should we start a strategic consulting firm? Should we have a legal department like should we be selling or should we have a law firm like, you know, Sam will? Why can't professional services expand into Professional Services. Should we have an accounting firm you brought up by the end? Yes, exactly. Right. That's, that's where I see it. And then and over that two year period, well, so put a lot of pressure on the business just because, you know, I'm thinking about right, more I want to do and the reality is just, the business just wasn't. It was fine when we were small, but it's not when you begin and some shy Is that what it what happened? What happens when you get bigger? Is it it is a little bit more, it's a bit harder to be nimble, but not not like words slow, we can change things on a dime. But it's a little bit you got more there's a lot more people involved. So you have to start a legal firm like we used to and just everyone going and that'd be fine. it'll it'll work or wine
and they siloed financially though that it is because I can see the excitement in insight will fact start a law firm. If it doesn't work, it shits the bed and that just falls off and then
theory Yes. It could all work fine. But it puts more pressure on a finance department because I go to rise invoices, right and they go to engage with you Like, it puts more pressure on HR departments, I got a contract the staff now stuff that I use ago we have contracts for just like it was different, right? And, and so there's just, there's just a reality. And and also, when you look at it from a business perspective, you said, well, where are we going to get bigger, bigger and better growth? Is it through starting a law firm is going to take four or five years to really get going? And it's not really part of what we do. And is there any synergies and pain across all clients and all those questions? Or is it just continue to get better at what we do currently, and how we're going to get better exponential growth out of that answer is stick the knitting and do it currently. Right. That wasn't the answer. Seven years ago, seven years ago, the answer was do more, get more stuff in the pipe. Because then we can create something that is unique and we've been In America, you know we have three agencies in America so it's a combination of both right? And I'm not living over in America I'm not the one driving it DAX sa over there. He's leading the strategy he's doing it he's wise and all military man he's an F 16 fighter pilot. He wants you know he's he's a lot more locks Donnie Crowder strategy shut up and Dan get going get it done. And so we do it that way. Was it worked
the the US market versus the Australian market I guess a lot of the time we can look at Australia and say we're fucking tiny and I guess even looking at the the model that you're doing, there's not like I don't really know of anyone in Australia doing it in a significant way. What was the reality check arriving to the US or even London, us is us is a
fascinating market. I love it. We lived over there for but we started over there for three months with wife and baby boy and no I am a little wallet, guys. We're getting a getting a And all of the American market we're based in Los Angeles is it's a great place horrible weather.
But actually had Ryan
said I was I was over there a few weeks ago and it was beautiful Atlanta from New York New York was negative three degrees right? Absolutely deplorable. Get on the plane land land in LA. Getting some Sean is 32 degrees Orange County that you're but we're about we've got two offices we got we got one in Irvine which is in Orange County. We got another in Orland Park, which is downtown LA. And I get in there and I said the woman that runs a research firm I say cheese I love coming alive lot. The weather's beautiful. She goes out tomorrow it's not great tomorrow. I see what you guys are so correct was 24 degrees. And that Yeah, the US US market is massive. We created the same business. We were American created the same business in American exact the same way. Same story. It's three times the size reimagined to bigger brands, a bigger population sizes bigger lots of stuff.
talent here is exceptional talent in Australia. And not talent America is exceptional. What about work
ethic? Because I always feel like in the US, like bums on seats, longer hours, all that sort of roles.
Yeah, the amount of the annual leave roles, it's a different, different way of operating. And I don't I don't see a massive difference in work ethic or people want to be engaged or or any of that sort of stuff. I don't really see a huge difference in the way anyone operates. To be honest. I think the talent over there is good. I think the talent over here is very good as on an equal part. It's not like the US talent is miles ahead of the Australian talent or anything like that drawing talent is top end, right. The way Australian businesses operate is top end. And the only difference is in America. They're talking about, you know, businesses that you've never heard of the small to medium sized companies that are still flying million dollar business. Yeah, right with huge marketing budgets. Here. You're doing your top tier and yeah, there's a big gap.
The pie is so much bigger over there.
And that's in every regard. Yeah, yeah. That's
that's the thing. It makes a difference. I spend two weeks here every eight weeks.
Have you been to Cheesecake Factory?
Isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's nothing to really
just like sighs
so when you when you
said it, but I've watched game changes that gone viteri and for like, all the time that Yeah, but they couldn't do my favourite like grand a burrito. So I had to
say this long.
Yes. You know, I think in the Cheesecake Factory. One of the marketing initiatives is the menu and I think this is not fair. But I think if I recall a conferences that they've got some exorbitant amount of chicken dishes 100 chicken dishes or something like it's a huge amount of chicken dishes that's on their menu and it's a big part of their attraction. Yeah.
Which Cheesecake Factory? We went to the one on third in Santa Monica. That was quite that's quite a rooftop bar or another one in Pasadena. We got to check that. So when you go over say you acquired these new businesses, what's what's your role is a chairman of the business coming into these new as they're already established. And you sort of rebranding or putting your stamp on them? What's the day to day look like, for coming into a business that already exists?
And was that with the US was an existing company that you put sort of the bastion logo
there. So the question is, we started with just DAX over there. Yeah. And then he's ready to go find these ideas. Is
the day to day for those
for coming into go, as, you know, the founder of a company. So when it gets to this level, it's a different sort of activity that you have to engage with each day. Yeah. So for young person like I,
for me personally, it's different. So I used to find every acquisition, I used to do every deal. I used to lay the integration and now I don't really do any of that now, dex. So we won't make any more acquisitions in the Israeli market. And in the for the foreseeable future in the US market. DAX is out there finding the acquisitions when he's got one that says, yep, we're exchanging financials. We're looking at putting a deal together. He likes the guy, all that stuff. I go over there I meet them. I basically I give the tick of approval on the deal. All right, and I just caught my kind of skill is been out of put a deal together fairly well. So I kind of get we have a baseline deal that we operate on, but then I'm kind of getting with a bit of the creativity on the deal. So I help with that. I help I kind of give the ticket, the right kind of person and all that sort of
stuff, are you basing on the values of the Australian operation and
now based on the values of the know what's worked here, but what works here doesn't actually work. Right? So basing it on the values of that how they work together, it's by it's good to have an external, half external person. Because DAX is driving every day day in day out meeting these guys finding him he wants to get them done. So I have to have the discipline to be able to be at arm's length and go I know you want to get that done, but he's not got
it nailed you like the one that wanted to expand is that does that what you're saying?
Well, it's a bit like that. But it's also the same as if any business you know, like, every time we hire an individual, a staff member into the into the company. If you're the general manager of one of our businesses and you need, you know, two more staff members for the period, you don't have those staff members, you're hugely overworked. Right? It's stressful, it's painful. It's horrible. So half the time you don't want anyone older, right? Because my life's unbearable the most, I'm doing the job of three favourites. So anyone will do now. It gives you like two weeks of relief. And then after that, it's even more painful because then you realise they're not right for the job and all that stuff. So we always make sure we've got some objective view of people that aren't involved or aren't impacted by whether you hire that person or not to
be able to go for less emotional or less trying to fix their less short term
problem. Yeah, exactly. And so that's the same same in the US, right? So. So if x is out there doing it, he wants to build his business right? even see it from 40 staff to 70 staff and be able to kind of grow the thing and do what he does, which I absolutely want to do as well. And We're absolutely aligned in that, at the end of the day on me and my family, we take the risk on the money. So, so is that objective view too. So, you know, every time we do one if we get it wrong, we get it really wrong, because there's not small stuff right? Like it's bigger stuff now. And so Nemo Cheesecake Factory so that's, that's a big it's a big crossover. Yeah.
What what's the deal with profit with these types of things like at this stage of your business, when you're bringing in these other companies, like how far along before you actually say dividends and all that sort of thing, within a within a business or assets?
it for us is different because it takes us three or four years to get a return and acquisition so we don't see anything out of probably three or four years. The but we have a way of a policy without subsidiary they got open person the way acquired the business. From where you acquire 80% of the business generally, and then they get dividends for you so service businesses should be profitable from day one they should be no, no lack of profitability because as I said, there's no capital magic capital expense that'll stop that that profitability. So they should they should be profitable. agency should ramp up profit should never be shied away from right. It's a lot of in a lot of business, especially service business. People don't like to talk about money don't like to talk about profit, like it's a it's a bad thing. What do you think that is? Why? I think it's a lack of education around how business works. Business owners don't mind talking about that. But a vast majority of everyone else really kind of struggled to talk about that. The reality is if a business doesn't make profit, then you're in the starves livelihoods are in jeopardy. And everyone's you know, the reality is with 250 employees, we pay a lot of mortgages, we fade a lot of kids we turn a lot of lights on and that is a huge responsibility. That, that we as the major shareholders are owning the company. And that is a it's a huge thing that sits on my shoulders and our shoulders every day. And it's not something we take lightly that if I employ you, that's a commitment. I've made you that I'm going to keep paying your wage. So you can then feed your kids and you can pay rent and you can do whatever you need to do. And in turn, you'll deliver the work. If we're not running a profitable business, we know the discipline around that your jobs in jeopardy, which means your family's in jeopardy, which means you know, you if you lose your job, if you got rent issues you got Yeah, put food on the table yourself. It goes with that. So it's just a reality of life. You just need businesses need to be profitable and not effective running there. And so it should never run away from
the complexities of this style of structure, does it? Does it require extra levels of consideration around taxation and all that sort of stuff. Or is it fairly easy?
The honest answer is you have to ask so far. But the very Lyman answer is not too much you get you get hit with, with bigger business gets some larger employment tax and some other stuff like that. But we run consolidated books around consolidated cash flows and things on that helps a bit. It becomes a bit more painful the end of the year because we got around 15 tax returns and all that sort of stuff to our finance department gets hit a bit with multiple into the structure.
But it's not, it's not SFL to that, you know, it's come tax time. It's a real pain in the house, which it is. At the end of the day. It also allows us to engage with all the different subsidiary shareholders in a pretty unique way. You talk about people shying away from making money People can have a bit of a complex when it comes to sales and generating sales and finding leads. What's your perspective
on? Yeah, okay, I still can't get my head around that. Because they do amount of people that say, Yeah, I sell Really? Well, you know, then you have you a limited in your career, like, unless you are creative and you're purely a creative or you're you know, you're a very specialist person of which is not many of them. You limited it if you can't grow a client and find a way to solve clients problems, which is already selling is not,
is it? The reframing is people, people looking at sales the wrong way.
It's like they're trying to sell you. If I'm trying to sell you this glass, right? You don't want the glass because you've got a glass, then it's annoying. If you're thirsty. Yeah, I'm trying to sell you a glass and water. Yeah, well, it's providing you a service, right? And that's the way it works. If you're, if you're a you know, the cliche used car salesman, if you're used car salesman trying to sell them a car that doesn't work to someone who doesn't really need a car, then yeah, you're slamball right? That's no good. If you're selling a car that works for a good price to someone that doesn't have a car who needs a car? Well, you you're making their life better.
So is it the people that don't say I don't sell they're not clear on the value that they personally bring
to the equation. They're not clear on that and then they're not clear on the base on of what way way or the business any business actually does. Like
clients engage us because they need their work done, but they need to seal they need to sell more cars more soft, drink more, be more web So they engage us to to market their we're so they can sell more service and they engage a number of agencies to do a number of things. Now if they can get it and streamlined in one place, they can get better work and we can provide a solution that sells more of their product. That's what they want. So why would we hold back we're actually doing a disservice if I know that I can provide a service to you that is a value that can potentially provide you with more sales. But I don't tell you about it because I'm scared of the cell. I'm doing you a disservice. Right? And and that that's and that is what business is business is not created out of people that are wanting businesses created these microphones we're talking on you know, all the new iPhone that I'm getting today that I'm all excited about getting thousand dollars
that exists. It's not a brand new one. It's a different that's a
wide angle. Yeah.
Yeah, I haven't got a case for it, yet. My phone
Rive is gonna now want that
for those on the camera okay
for those listening is going to be grin on his face now if the South I didn't say the right phone didn't then you know get this only you didn't feel
the value is in like I might I've got a better camera so I can be a better creator
yeah credit the story right that's that's what it is it's like that's that's what businesses businesses about creating a product or a service that can enhance someone else's life and that in b2b that someone else is the CEO, the marketing director, the staff of that company that ultimately if that car company whoever sells more cars, then that's better for everyone so we provide a service that betters them if it's funds, then provide a service where you can now operate the way you operate on your phone and your The beautiful thing that Apple is down as you crowded, it's a fashion accessory rod, you're super juiced about it. That that you've got this fashion accessory. And that that's what businesses and anyone that shows away from that thinks they just did do the work they asked to do, doesn't understand what how businesses created
for smaller operations that, you know, set out to create a business. They think they want to build the brand. But in essence, what that brand is, is essentially this service and more specifically to service based businesses, less products. So a lot of young people starting a video production company, it's really just them, right for the early days. What was the distinction with you guys? in those early days where you actually saw it as a brand pie or were you even thinking, build the brand? It's less, personally to me, we didn't think that for
years until we had separate brands We wanted everyone to work together. Cuz the, it's a story. We don't have time for here. But there was a distinct moment where we put three agencies to a pitch on work and they want it and like, I was like, well, that works, right? So that was kind of it. And then we didn't rebrand the bastion collective, wherever they had a unified brand. And we had the, you know, all the way it works. Not longer, four years ago, maybe like, if that was really, we really didn't push that. Because we didn't really understand we didn't, which is weird coming from a brand and marketing company. But we get it because I think most hold most holding companies in the market space. They do run independent brands. So we thought everyone can run their own independent brand. But the minute we stopped doing that, that was the minute when we thought well, we're actually unique in what we do now in our ability to provide a single branded integrated service.
Well, you have to be in the market to understand where you fit to then evolve into Door. That's
right. It was an evolutionary move for a long time. I think we're out of the kids stage now. But for a long time we were kids just trying to figure it out. And and yeah, now I think, I think what we're doing but we're we're figuring out what is the best way. And there's one of the things about our business that I think's been one of our strengths is we're not settled with any legacy issue. If not, you know, if I had worked in the holding companies or in the marketing services world for a decade, and then left and started my own business, I would have an opinion on what how the market operates, what it's missing, and what I should create, fill that void. I was 22 billion job before. So in any of that, yeah. So I just quit. We just created whatever the client wanted. And so the client says, Give us do that. We didn't we never went. Yeah, we can do that. Because half the time we didn't even know that was right. So then we go, should I leave that one with us? We Awesome, how do we do that we find someone who's an expert in doing that, which we can't do, but we pulled the mean and I can deliver it and, and so we, we everything we created was about creating exactly for what the client one and evolving that without any of the bullshitter. And in the right type of goes with it. And that's been evolution.
I love how open you are to talk about this stuff because I think that some people don't go there and they sort of hold their cards close. But I think sharing all of this is going to help so many people I know that specifically. I've got people in my mind that will absolutely love what you've spoken about today.
Joe, it's funny because I never used any problems or anything when I was when we're business smaller and finiman in. Yeah. Now I was talking about someone in the interview and they said something similar. And always in the back of my mind as I'm talking I'm like, should I be selling this opener is this Ben? then quickly? Just Detroit so I'm not gonna You're not going to
tell it to your operating system
these one of these yachts atrocious but Biggie getting the more you got the losers more scared you are filing which means the more kind of barriers you put up around yourself and and then you become less authentic and you become down you know and and
especially listeners might be the the judge of this on the Dell factor
but but a
you know it's at this thing get it lose you lose a video soul if you constantly guarded about what you say is it autumnal will tell you anything you want to know because we've had some good times and bad times and we've had more good times and bad times. And reality is we build a business, the largest independent in the country and we're building a business in America and we're doing some good stuff, right? And we're only doing that because we've been able to attract brilliant people into our organisation that can create something that is significantly better than any anything I could have created by ourselves at all, I think
we're beyond the time of showing just the polished, you know, well executed version. It's the learnings that come from all of the mistakes. And that's the only way you get there.
Or if you do that, if you if you show everything is shiny, when it's not necessarily shiny, then when you actually do have wins, you can't properly celebrate them because you've been communicating it the whole time.
Just quickly, because I know what about on a personal level, I think when someone asks you how you going, you say I'm great. And I probably say that when I'm not doing right. And that's the thing that it's like, it's almost like to stop that interaction. Or it's just what culturally
everyone does. It's I agree, it's that my wife was she's me every day. Stop asking me that. It's this, you know, and she's like, I'm genuinely interested. You know,
it's just this thing, this habit that comes off of your tongue, right. And, and it's good Right, let's let's get into what we're actually talking about.
But it's it's the crush question, but how do you personally, someone who has a lot of responsibility? How do you face that when you're not feeling great?
Yeah, well, a lot a lot.
A good thing. Yeah, I think you go Yeah, I'm great. I'm flying you know when you potentially not? Because you'd love to be honest the whole time and to my friends and other people. I am honest, but you know, if anyone I'm just on a conversation with but
it's difficult. It's difficult. What do you say? Really?
Yeah, people need I guess like when someone says How are you? What are they seeking as well? Because I think that's the interesting yeah, thing, which is like if, like, sometimes I get caught in the off occasion. I feel like you know, one every 10 years, you do a How are you or whatever. And it's to like the person who's working the checkout or whatever, and they tell you their life story. Yeah, fuck
How are you? And you go?
She's a lot of fun.
we talked about that for the next 15 minutes. Like, that's and that you know, it's a it's a challenge and that's why you know, hopefully everyone in their lives is got some really good friends around them I've been very blessed that I've got great friends I've got a great family, amazing wife and and a young son and I've got a great support network around me of people that I can be honest with and I can be very true with and share things because as a business owner, anyone out there it's a business owner knows that. It's not always great, you know, and and so you go through that and you need those great pillar and I've been very blessed that I do have those people around me. And, and so most of the time, I can just, yeah, madam.
Well next year let's, let's do another episode from the Cheesecake Factory. Yes and burrito
probably be back in LA.
Yeah, end of the year or something. Anyway, folks, thanks so much for being on the show guys choose at the daily talk show. Hi the daily talk. show.com is the email address. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts. Otherwise, we'll see tomorrow. See you guys