#861 – The Podcast Business/
- September 23, 2020
We chat about the feeling of holidays and activities that make you feel like a kid again, privacy in iOS 14, focusing on the podcast medium, content ownership and monetisation, and the importance of brand equity in podcasting.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
- The feeling of holidays
- Kite flying and feeling like a kid
- Privacy notifications in iOS14
- Focusing on the podcast medium
- Content ownership and monetisation
- The permeating nature of tech giants
- The importance of brand equity
- An email from Jasna
Email us: email@example.com
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY.
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 861. Happy
Hump Day. gronk. What's happening? What's going on? Sam's Joining us this morning.
Well, yeah, happy Hump Day.
Yeah, great episode. You should go and listen to these these fun.
You already listened to it. Ah, 20 minutes.
But man, I was inspired, like inspired listening to the skill, the growth, the loveliness of the team. Love it.
Can you give us a tease? Nice what what can we expect?
Just as loose. She's very funny on the show. Probably, in my opinion, one of her best appearances yet on any podcast. And then, yeah, we've got we've got great, great guests on the show. And we're just doing ring rounds to check in with them. So go listen to Yeah, I
feel Jess Lucas is one of those people that superstar, like, out of a podcast context. You're right. It's like, she's great, sometimes outrageous, you know, but you know, within the boundaries. It's that fine line of working out. Do I go that far on a podcast that goes out to the public? Shall so when she does do that? It's yet Yep, she's finding that sweet spot. And so hopefully this is just, you know, we needed within the nickname for Jesse if it's wild, wild. Yes.
Going all it like it seems like she's going all in which I appreciate.
I guys, I feel like it's the holidays. Well, yesterday, I was walking in the hole of the apartment block. And I was like, I there was a smell. That actually gave me a feeling of happiness. But also just like that. I was that I was travelling. Can you get it? Oh, no, it wasn't. Can you guess it? Can you guess what the smell was?
Well, I had a smell yesterday. Josh did the exact same thing for me. So I'll just say what mine was. And hopefully it's the similar one. sunscreen.
No, that that is a good one. That Yeah, that is a great one. Bree has a certain sunscreen than when she puts on her mic. For some reason. I feel like I'm in Dubai. What's good. It's pretty it's a pretty cheap way of travelling. Now. He the smell was the smell of Wade, coming from my neighbor's apartment. And it reminded me of the shitty hotels that Mason I stayed in LA where it's just like, you can't get rid of the smell. Even Vegas. I feel like has that happening a little bit?
Yeah. You said nice. You mean Nice.
Nice. La without me. Let's go for a little travel.
Yeah. Yeah, no nice back. Nice. Nice and nice. And yeah, definitely. I mean, it's California. It's the smell of it's the smell of California is marijuana. Yeah. And so and so what did you do? You kept walking into smiling or was just one of those things where it's like, Bree picks up on everything. So if the name is being loud, or whatever it is. She will she loves a bit of like, the other day. The neighbour had the Music loud. And she was like, put her ear up to the door of the neighbour to check that was them. And then that neighbour was actually out of their apartment coming back to their apartment door. Breezy was up against the door.
so bright. Yeah, like, I think that breeze default is like she loves to create a story about the different neighbours. And so her perspective on the wave, I can like, smell this and you open the second one she's pointing at the door that is so whatever. I'm like, Oh. That's what reminded me of holidays. I'm currently in LA and I wasn't called a super eight, I think was the shithole hotel that night and I stayed up where I thought I was gonna Yeah.
Well, the the sunscreen was yesterday for me putting it on Bodie. And it just, it was amazing. It was like, I was in very close to him at the point and all and I was just sniffing it. And I was and it took me back to being a kid on the beach on holidays. Yeah, and it was it was so nice. And it was it was also mixed with we were flying a kite for the first time human and the first time ever with Bodhi with Bodhi on a kite before but you know you get given presents. We got given a prison. I haven't found a cop for 20 years at least. Got given it for ease, third birthday, and it's one of those presents Yeah. I just sorted in it's
packed to string or one string.
Two Strings is fucking hard work.
Boy. Yeah, prime. It's for the adult. Yeah, that's for the adults. So yeah, we've got this thing and I'm just like, it has to you know, there's a lot that has to go right to fly the kite. You want it really windy. If it's like subpar wind it just falls down. It's very challenging.
I feel like I might so windy yesterday. Surely like it's almost safe without wind.
Dirt if this thing was going, this thing was up real high. Bodhi was loving it. I was just it made me so happy. I was like, when would you ever as an adult, fly a kite at the park? I'm just going to
never like you know, I'm definitely I'm cane toad to do it call out like the string. Could you fucking David blind it? Like how high could you get the car to wonder?
Well, it needs to be the appropriate when but I didn't if I went probably two thirds, or even half of what the string was. And it was 40 metres in the sky. It was real high. What do you want? It was good. Oh, no, it's just annoying, because anytime I gave it to Bharti, he would like run and then throw it. And then I'll be chasing after the cart. But it's really fun. Let's just think about like, if you don't have a kid, what's the why you can become you know, playful in your adult life. Like I it's his advice to myself. If I didn't have a kid I there's no chance I'd be out of the pack flying cart. Yeah.
I think I'm probably more I have that kid nature. Like 97 and grace got me a glove like baseball gloves and a ball. And I do intend to go down to the park and we're going to throw that fucking ball. And so that seems like a very playful thing.
Yeah, it does. It does. What's another if you were both outside of one that's been given to you? Sure. Like if you were half having to be like childlike. And actually go out and do it. What would it be like saving magic tricks and stuff? Definitely.
The first I thought about frisbee with a Frisbee. Now we I mean if you get a real bite like one of the ones with holes in it where anyone can throw it and it just miles like that's I feel like that's childlike.
It is it has that same I know what you mean outdoors. We had the site we had the Frisbee at the park yesterday as well. So if you need to borrow one saves you can borrow my around cars. There's got to be jack. Yeah, see, see these Josh you're onto it might imagine, like cut the anxiety cap the fucking self self concern like, don't worry what other people say, Josh? Today you're hitting the beach. And you'd be like,
it would be something that'd be good. I feel like I'd be the top the problem is thinking about when you're a kid. And if someone ruined you sandcastle what you do, like Could you imagine like, man kills child who tries to destroy his castle. It's like, you've got to enter into it with a new energy. You've got to sort of be like, Look, if someone's gonna ruin this. Yeah, it's all part of the game.
Yeah, don't blow okay. I've got a promise. So I'm just envisioning what will come out as if we did a little video series where I follow Josh Jensen who has to be a kid for the day. And so have you looked after Bodhi or dead for the day and I'd love to see you be a kid for the day. So we go into the we're going to the sandpit to build castles. Yeah, man.
Yeah, what else? What else? Is there? This I mean, nice. What did you do? Is it so I didn't do any? I didn't play with toys as a kid. What did you do?
Well, I mean, the other thing like a lot of cool stuff like pull toys like an adult getting in one of those blowup doughnuts, like I feel like three into that you know? It is very Instagram, but even Yeah, yeah, no, let's just like I remember like at the at the public swimming pool. I don't think that would do it now but they would just like massive rubber mats that you would all
But what about colour to them?
Oh my god. Hold on one. Howard. Hope Paul caught on No. I mean, Howard has
died like looking on a map.
And yeah, I got caught. I don't know why. I just remember you know, God. scade. So scale, but that's another one climbing trees JJ. Like there's a little bit of element of risk involved. You know, the swings this play set like just drawing in the park. Oh here we go like drawing on the ground. Everything I wanted to do with Bodie in this long day but I just start doing that with you yeah, I mean
the problem with chalk is just the lockdown is there isn't it now I don't get asked my but imagine the the pandemic think about how how dry everyone's hands so you're using hand sanitizer soap and then you going outside and playing with chalk? Mikey going you're gonna have some serious eczema going on when you
Yeah, yeah. Oh jumping in the puddles. So kids do that like jumping in muddy puddles? It's I mean you you smile that's what I think it what will happen is yesterday, I was just smiling flying that cart and bodies running off playing with a Frisbee. I'm just there. Like, I'll post it today on The Daily talk shows and scrimp on the Instagram I really have access to all posted on there, but it is, it is a happy sight, but maybe try and be more childlike.
Like what one of the things great and I got a clay set that we're going to be using. That's key this weekend. And so it's just buying like different like not just like brown brown clay, you know, just just normal clay but it's like, you know that Plato vibe of just like you know, you're making something you know, they come with all the tools so
yeah, it's gonna be like the same from what is it cold? Is it guys? Is that what it is? was what what is that movie? You know what? I'm talking a
ghost? Yeah, yeah. Behind you. Yeah, yeah. So
I'm guessing you don't have that you don't have a spinny own and all the now we don't have. We don't have a killer. But we have one of those spinny things. Do we put it on? Yeah, we have. Yeah. Why? Yeah. I have no idea. Where is it? It's mum and dad. It's in the garriage it's mum and dad's. It's probably like 1015 years old. That's great. Yeah. So we had, which will be fun. And see, see, this is awesome. So Josh, you said you didn't play with toys. What were you doing and sort of building automated, like Tesla vehicles.
I mean, I wasn't that like, mathematical last summit. Like I wasn't doing like electronics or anything either. Like, for me it was the I've told the story before. But microphones I was obsessed with microphones, who had a $20 microphone. But it was really cheap. And the end, it was only a 1.2 metre cable, mic line. And so I would have to pull, pull at it to like, move it far enough away from my speaker, so it didn't get feedback. Yeah. And so every few weeks, I would fuck it. And I'd have to tape it tape the bottom of the microphone. Because otherwise it would sort of go in and out. Yes, I went through a lot of microphones.
We'll see. I mean, the difference is if you So Josh, you see me ever riding a bike or a skateboard and you're like, he's not that bad at that. That is a result of me spending probably a good eight hours a day at the skate park for like, a every fucking weekend or hours at night. For years. I didn't get paid for doing the shit that I didn't get paid for. You know, just get paid for working on microphones back when you were four and five. That's paid off female. It's a good investment. But maybe the adult is for you is your child is the child who you just named assistant. Right? Like I don't know if I'm like, I'm not. What's it called? What do they say? Michael Jackson was fucking Peter Pan. We just said
Probably should have finished that one.
No, he was a fucking Peter Pan. Right? Which is like never grow up. I don't think the Peter Pan guy. Definitely not. But anyway, moving on iOS 14. Have you downloaded iOS 14. TJ?
No, today? Oh my gosh.
So the only reason I could you know why I fucking I I have to just put in my car to get into apple. So I can back up again before I
so you have to get the card out of the wallet. Yeah.
That's it, I just need to see is V on the back whatever it is, and then that I'm good. And then I'll back up the phone and then do the update. I just don't want to do the update before the backup because, you know, my like, my whole Apple account will be taken.
Well, I've noticed something with iOS 14 and mace you were using the beta. So I'm curious to see whether you got this. So there's this new function where there's a little orange.or a green.on the top right of the iPhone.
So yes, your glasses yeah Macross this Can you explain what it what it does? Well, so I mean, it's it's part of their Little move towards making, you know, the phones a bit more private and increasing the transparency between things. And so I believe orange means it was. It's been recently active. And so an app has recently used your camera or your microphone.
I think orange is microphone granola and the greens camera camera. Yeah. And so just show up on the little on the right you see this little document with the fact is that is because you have access to something that has used your microphone or camera. So when you're on a phone call, you will see the orange because you're on a call one that's using the microphone. Yeah.
It's very random, though. Like it just it pops up in just like the weirdest place like it's, so this is what
this is what worries me. So Instagram, randomly, not using the camera not using all that the green, like switching between accounts, the green dot will appear for a second and go away. Right? And so I did some research. And in July, there was an article all about this. And Facebook came out and said, this is a bug in our system. We're not actually accessing it. But this is the thing. They are accessing it. They actually are access it. So the thing is, it's not like it's a bug where the green.is a bug. This what that like it. So they're going around in that they're using this language, which is saying no, no, we're not actually accessing it. What they mean is, we're not going in and looking at the photos. But they aren't like the app is fucking accessing the camera like it is prompting the iPhone to show the camera because iOS wouldn't show that green dot unless that's happening. Is that right?
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Where is this going to? Like? Is that? Is it is there some headquarter where there's a you know, a guy on a computer that he hasn't moved in for years? And he just turns and gets fed? You know, food? And he's watching all this footage deciding what he might cut together? Is it a George is doing a replay of Instagram users?
Now we'll just won't know. So think about it this way. He's He's a thought the, what could you use the camera for like? So the quick split second camera. You they could be doing things as simple as how much light is in your room. So if you're going to bed, and there's not much light in the room? What does that mean? What What do we serve when when the room is dark? versus it's a bright day? Like all of these different things? I just think that all the data points. Yeah, the thing is, this was an issue in July in beta, and it's still happening today. I feel like this must be something that is more cemented. And I think that the the issue is that what they would probably argue, is they would say we're doing this for performance. So imagine if they, for instance, if your finger if your thumb went to go to swipe, right to access the camera, there could be an argument there where it's like, oh, well, we just want to be activating it before you actually see the camera so that it's ready and raring to go.
Yeah, the other thing that's been happening is also like the, which Apple's giving notifications for, but it's copy copying your clipboard. And so apps will now notify you when they've copied from your clipboard. And so I think LinkedIn got done for copying a bunch from your clipboard. And that was happening at like intervals. So what does that mean? Max? Can you explain that for someone who does so so when you when you click when you when you select something, and then you copy it,
outside of LinkedIn,
outside of LinkedIn, so any, any any, you know, selection on safari or whatever, or you're copying a message or whatever? They Apple will prompt you when an app reads what you copied. And so LinkedIn was caught. Because it will say like LinkedIn copied your clipboard or whatever. it'll it'll tell you what app did. And so LinkedIn got caught doing that. And they again said it was a bug. And then also Tick Tock got done for doing it as well. So it's pretty Tick tock, it's,
what did I get done, buddy? kidnapping us? Sorry, we just kidnapped the six year old Well, the thing is, it's the
apple are doing, like a decent job in creating a level of accountability. I think that's what's good about them not being in if they were in the social media space. Yeah, it'd be a disaster. So like, I like that there is a company that's keeping these social networks and apps to account.
And do you remember Josh, it was probably around the time you're working for Fifi angels. You probably He wrote an article for the dirt. It was about lantau to turn off your phone's location settings because you could check where you've been. And it was like the first time they've come out. And they're like, if you go into this setting this setting this setting, you can see, like, where you were at 2pm, based on your GPS, and everyone was mine was just fucking blind. They're like, this is disgusting. And then it kind of just, that's disappeared. I mean, that's still happening, right?
Well, there's the Yeah, there's like, if you go on to Google account, you can see some of the privacy stuff there. But Google's well known for doing that. But there's even like, I remember back in the day, when Twitter first launched, when someone would tweet a photo, there EXIF data of that photo was still there. So you could I could save the photo. And because the iPhone would attach a GPS location, I could see exactly where that person took that photo. And so they've done that they've done a bunch of work in like stripping out all of that sort of Exif metadata, so you don't get that information.
Yes, that's how that guy hacked. Tony Abbott's frequent flyer account by downloading the image and had all this data attached to it. Somehow he found that out. Yeah, might have been a little while ago. But I mean, it's still happening. Yes. And so where does that where do you land on that?
Well, I think with all of this sort of stuff, I think just awareness. So you, like there's the first stage I think of like realising Okay, this is happening. And then being comfortable with Okay, like, what, what does this mean? What does this mean for the way that that I use my device? Does this mean like, it's hard, I think it's just a good thing from a transparency perspective, but also, the more awareness that we all have around this until there's chat until there's actual change in regards to user behaviour. All of these social networks are going to continue to do what they're doing and it makes Yeah, it makes sense if they can, if they can make more money. Then they will actually on the on the more money thing, I got an email from someone who's in the radio industry. And they, they they emailed about the Spotify, the algorithm stuff, the Spotify thing. They said, it's interesting because you sound like the old farts, complaining about how FM radio isn't the same now. They don't play album tracks the commercialism. That's commercialism for you, podcasting will commercialise as other mediums have, and that can only be a good thing Surely, I think the thing that gets missed is like we're not against commercialising things. It's about monopolies. It's about Europa League. Like I think that that's the bit that gets missed, is if we think everything should be some sort of hobby, right?
Do you get that sense? Like I think that I see what you mean. So the the commercialization which led to monopolies like in the radio industry, I mean, that's, that's a is that even an industry you could look to as a comparison?
Well, so we can look at it. So what you can look at is you could say, so then argument sort of says, Okay, well, these things are happening. You don't have like, you've just got to go, like go with it. Otherwise, you're going to be, you know, you're going to be left behind. And so if you think about it, it's like, look at the the music industry. And you could say, Okay, well, if you got on like if you don't go onto iTunes, you like effect, if you don't go on Spotify, you fat, but then there's this other version, which is you can also have a part and have ownership on this sort of thing. And so what that means it's like, you need to invest in your own technologies, you need to be able to compete, like if you're wanting to, at the end of the day, because what we're talking about here is it's like ease money and making money for brands and all that sort of thing. You do need to have a good product. For brands, I think for us, what we're trying to do is it's like, Okay, what about if we're an independent podcast network that has the best technology when it comes to being able to reach audiences that's outside of Spotify, outside of Apple podcasts? Because it's less about the, the algorithm in regards to like from an advertising perspective, but it's from a content perspective. The thing that I think is it's very hard being a Southern Cross austereo wore an AR n. Because what did I do like? Do they so podcast one who SCA licences here in Australia? They weren't on Spotify. And then they reach a point where they're like, Oh, fuck, we've got to be on Spotify to be relevant. And I completely understand that thinking, and that's what like, we're on all of the platforms, but at the same time, what are you building? What are you creating, that then sits on its own that's outside of all these other bigger things.
And, I mean, probably podcasting is an interesting one, because radio didn't start as something that was, you know, would that anybody could do, it's always been something that you had to have a licence for. So podcasting has been this thing, you could anybody could start, but then the monopolies are starting to appear, which will mean, there's a lot more picking going on, Spotify choose you to be the superstar.
And then it comes down to it that it actually is more about consumer habits than anything. So it's like if, like whether we call it podcasting or what like, what we do, it's not too fucking dissimilar, what we're doing to talkback radio, or whatever it is. But I think that the important part of it is protecting the actual medium. Like, I think that people will say, like, the medium doesn't matter. Like it's all about content, focus on content. But the consideration is that the platform and the medium will dictate the way that the listener consumes that content. And so when you can change the context, in in, in which the audience listens to the content, you are reshaping the content. And so you can't say that, I'm just going to put something out into the world. And not focus on you know, necessarily the medium focus on doing good storytelling, all of these types of things. When at the audience end, it will be shifting, there is a, there's a big difference between doing a five minute piece that then go like a five minute segment, that then goes to music, then there is doing a, you know, 3540 minute, uninterrupted piece. So I think that the thought around, don't worry about the medium, everyone just worry about the content is not too dissimilar to what's happening. with Facebook, with Instagram, this is what we've been told for a long time we get told, focus on the content, do good content. But then all of a sudden, we're like, hang on, I'm putting out all of this good content. I think that this is what people want. That's not reaching people. What do we do? Okay, I put out a meme. So mean, like, it doesn't have any sort of brand value to it. But the lowest common denominator stuff, it's the stuff that everyone can relate to just on even on a very superficial level. And you put that out there. And that's like, Ah, it got like, we're getting a response. Now we're getting all this reaction, we're getting feedback, we're getting comments, we're getting likes, fuck, do you know what like, fuck doing the piece that took you two hours? Why spend two hours doing a piece of content when you can do when we can just spend two minutes photoshopping up some photos, someone else talk with a meme. And so this is the this is the consideration where it's like, I understand the appeal of focus on content. And also the criticism or the feedback. Like I've heard this across the board, when I speak to industry, people about this horse, especially in those bigger businesses. The biggest thing that I always hear is it's like, Josh, but like, you know, this is like the commercial game, right? This is like the commercial thing that we're playing. I think that what people don't underestimate is or sorry, what people underestimate is that like, every single day, we're turning knobs, making adjustments to build a sustainable business that has sustainable revenue, that pays creators that pays a team that puts creativity at like, the the top of everything we do. And so I just think all of this stuff is really relevant. And if we don't, if we just dismiss it as our This is something that like, you've just got to, if you're not on Spotify, if you're not on these things like you are going to be left behind there is another version. And for me, that version is be there. But also be very wary of what's happening to your content, be very wary of the knobs that they're turning and the things that they're doing. And so you need to be parallel with what's what's happening over there. And building a sustainable model that then fits something where you have more control. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it's the thought though from these people that sort of are in big businesses, big media brands that do say similar thing is that that they think it's inevitable. It's it's going to happen to you better do the deal with the devil and play the game. So play the algorithm Got.
And so the reason Yes, and so you can, you can be playing a finite game and an infinite game at the same time, you can have your infinite game, and then realise that we need to play these finite games, whether it's charts or social channels to be able to build all of that stuff. I think part of it is like using the Southern Cross austereo example. I've spoken about this before, but in 2013, Southern Cross austereo came out with a product called songul. And songul, was meant to be the competitor to Spotify. And this was Southern Cross austereo, rightly so saying, hang on, where we're being disrupted here. And so we need to own part of this pie, we need to be doing something in this space. But then you think you, if you don't have the right strategy in place, you just can't compete. Because you end up being this exclusive thing that doesn't really do much. It doesn't have like the audience First, it doesn't take off because it's coming from a place of, we just need to do something we need to react, and not thinking about, what does the audience need? Where is the audience going? I think like I heart have done a better job in providing, you know, doing something in this in this space with their apps,
their own app that has access to all different types of stuff. Is it like a Sirius XM model, like free, but they've got free, free access for?
I think, like so for for I heart, they're, they've done well in regards to licencing. So they've licenced to, you know, Australian markets, and they've got things going on, where they're owning the content, and they're creating stuff. And they're, they're also using, if you look at what AR n are doing, they're using their radio platform to encourage people download the app and all that sort of thing. And then then they have a state in that app and in that revenue. And so I just like if you look at so songul, before songul started, they were called anubis.fm. And that was a Sony that was done by Sony, as a way of saying, hang on, fuck Spotify is doing this play. As the music industry is a label, we need to do something. And so there's this constant reaction that happens where it's like, disrupt yourself, but they don't like, we see it time and time again, this such a big ship, they're paying so much money of all to all of these radio hosts. And also it's a very hard pill to swallow, where they need to completely restructure the way they do business.
Yeah, I mean, you could say that it's, it's, it's always going to be the case that there is someone or some out media brand or platform at the top, owning a majority, like all the best minds out there to work out how to do that exact thing. We didn't have any Spotify
you don't like the thing is that it's not beyond Spotify, like beyond Spotify, or create your own Spotify, we can create, like, we've done the forecasting, we know that we can create a really good, sustainable business that pays creators that does all of those sorts of things based on a model where it's like you're owning the content, you're even owning the advertising channels to you are and so I think that there's a consideration there where it's gets lost around podcasting, where because podcasting started as this small thing it's it's sort of it feels similar to say the the blogging industry right when so like, when blogs are happening, and then you're saying your buzz feeds come up and what sort of thing you see bloggers you know, just a few individuals or whatever behind their computer getting pissed off that like, Ah, this is like not what blogging is blogging changed. And I think that to the point of this email that you could lump what I'm saying and simplify it to a level where it's like, this is this is a hobbyist or someone who is romanticised with the medium don't focus on the medium like who gives a fuck like, like and I get it if you want if you're someone who it's like people's obsession with radio, like the the love of radio, the love of like if, if people took that energy if their love of radio and applied it to like, love of like building creative things for our audience. Since it's such a fucking small shift, but it would completely change the way they do business.
Yeah, yeah, open a lot of a lot of doors.
What do you guys,
what you mentioned yesterday around the stuff where Spotify is, if you're an artist, like a music artist, you're being paid to put your stuff on there. But the whole podcasting platform is free content for them. And so they've got their own, you know, streaming ad insertion tech, that's available for brands to advertise with Spotify. And so I guess, like the importance of being able to, I guess, yeah, control your channels. And just be cautious of what those bigger platforms are doing. And I think there are like, there's a bunch of tech coming out. So there's, there's like a new sort of directory for podcasts that's steps away from what Apple's doing, because a lot of the podcast apps based on Apple's podcast directory, and so I think,
and so what that means TJ is it's like, imagine there's Apple was the, when podcasting started. Adam curry talks about this, who sort of seen as the founder of podcasting, you know, he was the, he was on Joe Rogan. Recently, I think it was Episode Two when he's new studio, but the the godfather of podcasting. I said, I thought, Charlie, godfather. So the, the, the index that whole like, so an index is just like, a list of every single podcast that's out there, right? They they did a deal with Steve Jobs with like, Apple can have that right. And so Apple became the index. And what that means, what does it mean to be an index? It means if you're using an app, like pocket casts, or if you're using these other aggregate aggregate, so aggregators, they would use Apple as a way of being like, what podcasts are out there. And so all of a sudden, this medium that could be open?
is a sir one. Yeah, central location. And it's just like, it's apples when, you know, removing stuff and all that. And so, yeah, I mean, I think there's
a new index is what you're saying.
So so there's a new open index, that's, you know, it's meant to be sort of that decentralised away from one organisation sort of thing? And so, yeah, I mean, it's, I think, like what you're saying, Josh, there needs to be a caution around what the bigger companies are doing with your stuff. And on the I heart, media, and I Heart Radio stuff, like being able to actually have your own channel actually realise what channels you're distributing your stuff in, and what's happening in those different channels, whether it's like, you know, Spotify, putting an ad in the future in, in your actual, you know, content, I think just being cautious and wary of what's happening with your content is what needs to happen.
And the other thing to keep in mind is, Facebook did this, YouTube has done this, they will come out at some point, Spotify, and they will say, we're making it easier for podcasters to make money. And what they'll say is, we are now doing ad share across all of the the podcast so you can make real money through putting your podcasts up there. Spotify bought a company called anchor, anchor was seen as a as a host as a podcast host. So when you put up a podcast, it has to be hosted somewhere. And the thing that anchor did really well was they made it this app, it's like this social network, it's really easy to do voice calls, like leave voice messages for that podcast as they provided all these features. And then what they said, is we're gonna make it really, really easy to put ads on your content. You don't control what the CPM is. So the cost per thousand downloads that you get in regards to you know what you get paid. You don't even you don't even really get a say in regards to whether an ad gets played or doesn't get played. And so, Spotify have bought anchor. So if you think about what anchor represented, then you look at what Spotify has bought. I've no doubt that what's going to happen in the next two years is what's happening on YouTube right now. We're on YouTube, but we don't believe in like, I noticed yesterday, we got D monetized on one of our videos, and it's like that, what they're saying what YouTube is saying is for this video, you can't make money off it. And what we're saying is it's like, okay, we're going to be on YouTube, we'll play that game. We'll do that that's fine. But we'll also be on our own platforms. And not only will we be on our own platforms, but will control the advertising. And not only will we control the advertising, but we'll give brands, the best technology in regards to how they reach their audiences. And not only that the risk like YouTube or Spotify would say, okay, there's this thing called brand safety. So if you talk about a certain topic, McDonald's, or whatever the company is, doesn't want it like so cuantas don't want to advertise against an episode about a plane crash, that's fine. The thing is that what we're doing as independence is giving brands, all of that sort of stuff. But rather than getting a CPM or cost per thousand of 10 $15, based on what a Spotify, or YouTube will give you, we can get 50 bucks. And so this is this is the whole thing, where I think the reason why I bring all of this up is because not because I'm like gloating that I think that we're doing the right strategy, but because there are so many people who are getting started today. And they should just be wary of what the machine is that they're playing into. And it's not be a hobbyist don't care about money, or join these things blindly. There's this other hybrid, which is understand the context of the industry, and then create a great sustainable business that, you know, can't just be, you know, shifted or changed depending on the monopoly or duopoly that we're dealing with.
And then there's a bunch of people that the other approach is to, is too hard or not right for them. So they will fight the the one presented by the Spotify, they'll come
to us, this is the other thing, too. So we're doing like we, we are providing revenue share for creators, but we give them a bunch of other things, too. We give them support, we give them coaching we give them you know, platform distribution. And so this is the thing there is there is the other hybrid, it's like what why would you go to a network. And so if you are thinking about going to an I heart, or an a cast or a podcast, one or BIG MEDIA COMPANY, whatever it is, you need to ask the same questions, which is like what are you? What are they giving? what's the what's the transaction that's happening? The transaction that happens with what we do is we take a percentage of revenue, we look after everything we look at, look off the sales, which is very common. That's there's nothing nothing revolutionary about that. But then we'll have conversation like we have content meetings every single week, you're working with like, think about with Telly and how much you're closely you're working and developing and doing all that sort of thing. And so that's the exciting thing for me, is bringing that model with, you know, everything else. I just wanted to clarify, because I think it could be you could easily think that we're just some hobbyists who are a bit blind to what's happening. Yeah.
Yeah, there's, there's multiple approaches. I like it. And then there's the I mean, that hasn't even brought into account the censorship stuff that we were speaking to yesterday, Joe Rogan? Which then, yeah, so you could go down that rabbit hole of reasons why these, these big companies are damaging for creators and sharing information on the either side. So I mean, does it is it what else is? Is it anything outside of the medium of podcasting that is, has been unaffected by these big companies?
In? I think everything has. So there's a whole we spoke, I think it was yesterday yesterday about email. Yeah. There, there are a bunch of petitions, but also working groups that are working against what Google are doing when it comes to have a sort your inbox. And so what Google has done, is Google have provided that have created algorithms for your inbox. And so if you go into your inbox, if you're in Gmail, you'll see what's the tabs nice. There's a marketing tab. There's a I've got it turned off.
Yes. Now there's, there's a bunch of just like ways to separate them out based on the context of the email promo in promotions. Yeah, from
social social media.
Yeah. And so the this is the thing, all of a sudden, Gmail, or Google is controlling what our email does, and it's based on convenience. So what happens like this is so convenient because now Google or Gmail is only going to show me the things that I want to say. But then what does that do to small businesses? If you're a small business, and you've got someone's email address, and now all of a sudden, that customer isn't seeing your email, because you have been put into the marketing category? What does that do? So, TJ, this is the thing, there is very few options and opportunities around the way we haven't been affected by algorithms and algorithms. I think the thing is that algorithms can be used in a positive way too. We are using algorithms for the things that we do as well. I'm a robot that like what we're using them as well, but I think that there needs to be an intentionality to it. And we also need to just make sure that we are diversified in the way that we so for instance, it's like Facebook. Even was it Myanmar, that where they talked about that in?
Social dilemma. It's like, well, when someone gets a new phone, the first thing that gets installed is Facebook. Yeah, from the person who's setting it up. And so what does that do? All of a sudden, they think the fucking internet is Facebook. And this is what's happening. All of a sudden, people think that spot Spotify, is podcasting. Spotify has only been doing podcasting for fuckin a year and a half or two years. It's like Spotify. podcasting has been around since 2005 2004.
So like, if you were if you were Spotify, you would want people to think that Spotify
is doing it even if Spotify is doing the exact thing that Spotify should be doing for shareholders. Spotify is doing exactly what Apple was unable to do based on Apple being a big company and not needing to do it. But you know, who else is playing in the podcast game now? Amazon? And then if someone was on a recently, yeah, if you look at what Amazon like, you want to look at the terms and conditions of what Amazon says in regards to podcast. What are they saying? Nice.
So you can't you can't bad mouth. Any Amazon like home, like their home brand Amazon products in your podcast, if you want to list it on there. They've just got outrageous things dictating a bunch of ads and content that you put out on their platform. But
don't mean the app would be a dirty, dirty little boy and do a exclusive show for them reviewing any product, every product at Whole Foods. I'll do that. That would be a shout out
today. Yeah, nonperishable
pro Amazon show. Where's my stuff? Do you think though? Like, like, what's the
I see? I think it's everyone. It's inevitable. It you're, you're pushing against something that is you're playing an algorithm at all of these different levels. So which one are you up for? So it's not pushing?
Right. So I think that this is the clear thing, this is the distinction. This is the bit that will be the difference between me being absolutely crazy and stupid. And us being successful is it's like it's not a push. It's a it's it's recognising it's, it's it's looking all around making strategic decisions based on all of those types of things. Everyone wants it to be an all or nothing. It's either like, you're for Spotify, and you're on Spotify, you can be on Spotify, and being like, you know, what, Spotify, for us, is the version of a billboard. So, fucking 10 years ago, you had to pay for like for eyeballs. And so there was a sense that Spotify at the moment is giving eyeballs that we can all ears that we can then convert to our own fuckin brand. And that's why I like having a brand having something that's connecting with audiences. So something that's actually that if you if we were to go would be missed. That's what you need to do. Right? You need brand equity. This is why Joe Rogan gets over 100 million dollars. It's because he's got brand equity. And so it isn't about like, Yes, you're right, like, to a lot of extent, it isn't about the medium. But it is about brand. And within brand. It's how you using the medium. We've had like, just because you're good at Tick Tock you might be really great at Tick Tock Tick, you know where this is going most you might be really good at Tick tock, you might be really good at creating fucking six second videos on Vine or whatever it is, doesn't mean you can talk for 45 minutes. And so this is the great thing is that if I can take Tucker's coming out with a podcast and they're the most boring thing that you've ever seen. And so anyway, I've had a coffee can you tell? I finished it before I'm fired up fired. I think right? Does that explain? The reason I'm bringing it up is because also, I don't want to be misconstrued or these things to be overly simplified. And I recognise that when I do a five minute conversation, it we don't connect enough of the dots to paint a picture that actually makes any sense for anyone that doesn't have context.
Mm hmm. I mean, but the, the, there's a high chance of continuing to be misunderstood. When you're talking about stuff that you like you're believing in it, and you doing all the dots connecting, which is giving you a context. And then there's something else there that you're having to think is the way it is, which people will always think there's a bond spot there. If they haven't done that work, and it's not your job to do the work and
everyone's got blind spots, and everyone's got different versions of someone on our studio tour. I was looking at the comments, they said, someone said, How can they do it? Yeah, no, this is this is another one. I was just like, Well, what about people saying no, I can. someone's like, ah, someone had written back to a criticism of like, you know, these guys only have 10 K or whatever, like, what's the deal? Yeah, someone's like, parents, parents money, or whatever. I just right. It's just like, you can see the blind spots. Right? You can see the the story that something like that, for us thinking, thinking about a year ago when the struggles we had and what we had to do to try and make it work. And like I said, that makes me proud. But the other thing that what it does is it's like, I feel bad for the person who that is the story that they've told. Because if you really believe that our parents are footing the bill for this thing that we're doing, you're you're poorly mistaken. And so I think that, look, we're speaking for ourselves here, not Mason. Yeah.
Yeah, no, we're, we're thank you to Mason's parents.
keeping him healthy, not many sick days. so far. It's been right. It is. Right.
So quickly, I mentioned at the front jazz neuron. on YouTube, she sent us an email. Yeah. What's the actual contents of the email?
That was about there was it was it was a reply to the email that you sent out over the weekend.
And she signed off the morning pages that somehow got sent to everybody.
TJ, did you notice what happened to what was at the end of that email?
No, I did see the email from her. But I must have read that it was not much in there. What did it say at the bottom? Don't miss the bottom bit.
Yeah. She said she signed off and she said, you know, thanks for whatever. Yes.
We've been saying jasna. Yes, no, I think it's Yes.
I said the exact way.
You put a giant the start. You're gonna convince people it's jazz. As I have a friend called jasna. spelt exactly the same. You
use slamming jasna saying that she is in fact jazz and jazz now.
Why is her name written Jasmine? She signed off Yes. Which is a nickname. Yes is a nickname and she's just said in the comments. Yes.
My name. So So if yes is a nickname? If if jasna was her name wouldn't her nickname be jazz?
Yes, but then so I can name a MOS or how do you get to a MOS from Amy?
Amy A mos
Yeah. And then Marcy. I call her mossy? So how do you get over that's just
Yeah, but this is nicknames are ridiculous. Mr. 97
So Jeff, is it is it Yasmina? Or jazz? Now? We just need to clarify voucerhs no with their wives just for ladies. If it is just so we can be clear. Anyway, so So that was something that had been on my mind as well.
It's sort of her name's Jasmine.
Jasmine Jasmine pronounce Yes. Je is pronounced why in
absurd? She Serbian. Yeah. There we go. Yes.
So you okay. tasia? Yeah.
Yeah, I will call you Yes. Now.
Because I mean, people, people that do come to this country that make their names easier.
It makes a lot of sense if you're going to come to our country.
No, no, but it is interesting when when you choose to go to name that? I like Yeah, I know. Yeah. I know. I know. He has never as well. But do you think maybe yes. Yes. He that was it right?
That may be yes. has never been Actually like what you're implying there is like, just to make life easy. She said that her name's jasna to us but we've just always called it we've never heard her now name.
It's so Jays wine. Serbian. Yeah. So then that is, yeah, the translation is Jasmine. Which makes sense to then just replace it because everyone's gonna get their names not yes now it's Jasmine but it's
it is yes,
it is yes. But then it's just yeah the conversions the fucking bit the tricky is or isn't it? It is. Yeah, which one? Are you okay with jasmine with a j? I think we'll say yes,
I think we just say absolutely, surely. I mean, it's a pretty good move to be like no names this but I will be calling you this. That sounds like back in 1995 at the pub doesn't have a name guys we've had I'm calling you, john.
Oh, she's thrown a spanner in the works. She's now changed the s to a Zed. I'm jasna to you guys are just
because the wind. We just Yes. jasna. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks, everyone. Yeah, I've got no call to action. Now.
Thanks for your real name. If you if we lost six months,
we had mice on so I could just talk for 40 minutes.
It's great news. Great. I expect to fall female from the person that said,
I'll just send this I'll just say hi. I responded.
I that's it. I think it's a good thing to talk about. I mean, people need to people need to be aware of it if they are creating stuff and you know, want to be on their platform. They
don't and they don't have to give a fuck and they just continue doing their power because that is a lot of people's paths. Right. And this is the other thing and that's their path. The person
who emailed was extremely nice and it's this classic case of you just take the one bit that you don't agree with or whatever and just double down thank you for the email. It's very nice.
We need a shower die and thank you for delivering
Yeah, cuz the that uh, the marijuana bit didn't really wasn't really much to it. Alright, enjoy the rest of the day, guys. Have a good one. And we'll say tomorrow. Bye.