Brooks Atwood On Design Perfectionism & Collaboration

Josh: It's a daily talk show in Los Angeles, and we're in a very cool—

Tommy: I mean, I've never been to Coachella before, but we're in the boardroom called Coachella.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: And we've got Brooks Atwood next to us. How are you, buddy?

Brooks: Hey, good to be here. Thanks so much.

Tommy: Thanks for inviting us to Coachella.

Brooks: You're absolutely welcome. It really is like a Coachella kind of moment, and, and the, the experimentation that we do here is very apropos. So Coachella is a good word.

Tommy: Are they drinking LaCroix at Coachella? I could imagine that's very Yep.

Brooks: They're probably drinking CBD-infused teas at Coachella.

Tommy: So we're in Culver City. This is the HQ, Office Untitled. What is Office Untitled?

Brooks: Office Untitled is a unique creative agency focusing primarily on architecture and interiors, but more with an experimentational attitude of questioning realities. Or questioning universal preconceptions like what is a house or what is a children's museum and really kind of like approaching projects from that unique kind of angle.

Tommy: You took us for a tour, uh, there's some pretty quirky bathrooms that you got here. I just took a selfie while I was in there.

Brooks: You wouldn't be the first.

Tommy: Well, I mean, then it has the debate of some people don't like— some people don't like the thought of other people using their phone in the bathroom, but your bathrooms here make you want to use your phone. So I've been, I think I've been in a position.

Brooks: I think that's a good thing.

Tommy: Yeah, I think I love it. There's, you know, what did you like, Josh, walking around these creative corners?

Josh: Oh yeah, I think the smell. I mean, you weren't—

Tommy: And it wasn't the bathroom after breakfast?

Brooks: No, no, it wasn't the smell.

Josh: No, there's just a sense of, I feel like I could smell a bit of glue going on. There's like, we've got heaps of small models of things that you're building, but there's, you're actually printing shit out. There's stuff on the walls. It feels a little bit Willy Wonka. For creatives?

Brooks: Absolutely. You know what, now that I think about it, it's unlike any architecture office, and I'm hesitant to say the word architecture as office until it's a creative agency, but there's been other magazine editors that have come through and they made the point of like, this looks like a studio at a university in a way of like experimentation is encouraged. And that's the culture that we try to create here where you're able to experiment and test out ideas. All of course for the benefit of the project, to make the projects better, but it has that kind of Los Angeles experimental, like let's test and fail quickly, obviously. But let's test and fail out ideas and talk about ideas.

Tommy: So I mean, is that a minimum viable product approach to design? I mean, how do you grapple with perfection and that approach, because that approach doesn't allow to make it perfect.

Brooks: Well, you know what comes to mind is the disco ball. So there's a disco ball hanging, happens to be above my desk, but that's the skylight that gets the most natural light. So it's a win-win for me and the office and the disco ball. I think if you look at perfection in the disco ball, disco balls are not perfect at all. And in fact, it's incredibly difficult to make a sphere using tiny squares of mirrors. And they're not nicely glued on there, but from afar it looks amazing and the effects are extraordinary. So what we— what we— we actually strive for excellence on all the projects and we have a culture of like technical abilities and know-how, and that's as equally as important as design, but so is experimentation. So most architecture practises or other practises are about like executing well and doing a high level of design, but I think what separates us out is this idea of experimentation up front and like this conceptual phase that we come in really heavy and strong at the beginning. So as, I mean, as you could sense when you walked around for the tour, there's a culture of like ecstaticness or like static electricity in the air of like, you know, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it. Cause like you never know what's going to happen, whether somebody like puts on a different song or there's a dance party, but we also have like Design Review Thursdays. So there's an hour that we take out of our day of like, let's talk about something important about anything. It could be anything, and it's a free, safe space. I use that word safe space because the whole office is a safe space. So once you come through that door, like, all ideas are on the table. Nothing is stupid, nothing is out of bounds. Um, and, and, and that's important to create that kind of safe environment for experimentation and creativity to thrive. Yeah.

Josh: As a designer, what's your relationship with collaboration?

Brooks: It's all— it's 100% collaboration. If you're not collaborating, like, you know, I mean, one, one brain is not that good, but like a bunch of brains, way better. Uh, also, in order to be creative and innovative, it's about connecting things that aren't connectable or shouldn't be connected. Like, you know, that bird that I saw this morning in this weird helicopter, and then meeting you guys and you're talking about the smell. Now I have this idea in my head, but that took 3 people or 4 people to come up with those ideas.

Tommy: Do we get a cut of this idea? What's going on here?

Brooks: No, no cut. But you can— we'll put it as a footnote.

Tommy: And so I guess A lot of people struggle with the collaborative process because, you know, we're—

Brooks: Bullshit.

Tommy: You don't think?

Brooks: No. I mean, that's, that's on them. So you have to remove ego. Yeah. You can't have an ego. You can't collaborate with an agenda. You have to be totally neutral. And what's awesome about us is, as I mentioned, we all have young kids. I have a 5-year-old. Is that 5-year-olds in particular? You don't know this yet, but they just say whatever is real. Like, this salmon tastes weird. And like my son was right, it wasn't good. So we stopped eating it. It was at a restaurant. I was like, you're right, it's not, it tastes weird. But what I mean is like, um, you have to remove the mask that you're wearing or you have to remove your ego or like you can't be concerned like what other people are going to think of you or like having your feelings hurt. It's like, no, let's all throw out these ideas and work together. Cause that's, what's going to make a better project. I am not a genius. You're not a genius. Nobody's a genius. Even Einstein's not a genius. He was picking up on the context of what was happening around him. And so that's what we try to cultivate in the office here and even going out and even collaborating and even talking to other architects and other designers. And we even actually go out and tour other people's projects under construction to see like, hey, that's a really great idea.

Tommy: How do you find people's reception to that? Because I really like that approach of we can collaborate with anybody.

Brooks: Yeah.

Tommy: But I could imagine there's some people who have had some wins as solo operators or solo creatives that think, no, no, I know it because I've had the past successes.

Brooks: No, I'm still going to say BS on that one. What I think is great is that all of our clients are repeat clients and they come back because of that collaborative process, like because we work with them. We also ask strange questions that nobody's asked them before, but a year later they'll be like, I'm still asking that same question. Like we're designing an entire warehouse district in the middle of the country. And the very first meeting we had with this developer, we asked the question, "What is an awning? Can a submarine be an awning?" And it was about how do you get people to come into the district and how do you develop a language, a design language for an entire district all the way down to the lobby experiences. So, you know, that starts with an awning and what you're gonna see first. Even a year later, he still talks about that question of like, what is an awning?

Tommy: Is he still trying to figure it out?

Josh: Did you have to learn that? Was there times in your life where you felt the friction of collaboration or where it didn't necessarily— you're wearing a mask, as you described? Yes.

Brooks: So if you're in a space that's not a safe space, then it could be threatening or intimidating to other people if you're throwing out ideas, especially if they seem wild, like what is an awning? Is a submarine an awning? Where it's not a wild It's not a wild question, it's actually incredibly hyper-specific to humans and how you're using space and what space feels like and the temperature of the hatch when you touch it and like what's the air taste like. I mean, it's very important of how you go into a space. So I think it's very important to ask those questions. The kind of training that I've tried to put myself through in terms of like almost like a Buddhist regimen of like creativity of like a religion, would be to remove what people think of me in order to be able to collaborate with, with our clients or whoever we're working with, or even fabricators when we're doing custom furniture or whatever, right? So it's removing yourself, removing your ego, and that takes a lot of practise over time. But then also, if you surround yourself with the right people, they encourage you, they encourage that to happen. And that's what's great about working here in this office, Office Untitled, is that everybody's encouraged to think differently and be unique and creative. And everyone has equal input on all the projects.

Tommy: We're in LA right now. You haven't lived here for your whole life. You were in New York?

Brooks: Yeah, I mean, I'm just a kid from the Midwest. I was born in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

Tommy: How important is location to creativity? So New York is the—

Brooks: Oh, that's a great question.

Tommy: Energy of New York. I feel creative there.

Brooks: Oh, wow, yes. 100% agree, location has a huge impact on creativity, especially me. I tend to pick up on like the vibes and energies of the places that I'm in, and I use that to my advantage in terms of like creative outputs. New York is super creative in a, in electricity that's just palpable, that you can just walk down the street, bump into somebody and be like, oh, excuse me, hey, do you want to create something together? And they'll be like, okay. Tonight, let's meet and like make up a couch or design a new skyscraper. That actually happens all the time. Uh, and, and so there's this energy there that you just never shut off. Like you're just, everything you do, like I would crash my bike all the time and run into parked cars because I'm looking at something. I'm like, that's a great detail. And then crash, which is not good if you're pushing a stroller with a tiny baby in there. But, uh, the baby's safe. Nothing ever happened to the baby.

Tommy: So New York, is that, do you think, where you've had the most creativity, or?

Brooks: No, I think Los Angeles.

Tommy: Yeah?

Brooks: I'm super excited about that and like love to be here. I've been here 3 years now. I was a little bit nervous moving here because it's like vastly different than anything on Earth. And like just being from the Midwest, Los Angeles seems like a foreign planet. I had never been here before. So it's a little bit weird. There's cactuses and they bloom all year and It seems like a fairyland of like Willy Wonka, but the creativity and the, like, what people are doing here is fascinating. And the mindset of experimentation and failure and testing and inventiveness is so palpable that that doesn't happen in New York. In New York, it's like creative energy and people are doing things, but in LA, it's like there are no rules design-wise. Like, you can do anything you want as long as you have this like great narrative and you're testing and experimenting with things. Yeah, but there aren't any like rules about colour or pattern or space or what the temperature is supposed to be like when you lick the door handle, or like there's no rules at all. It's like if you want to go and make that thing, go and make it. Like there's makers and fabricators all over the place here, you just have to figure out where they are. Yeah, because they're hiding.

Josh: I heard you, uh, use the phrase licking the details. Uh, what does that mean and what are some examples of where you're licking the details that other people might completely ignore?

Brooks: Well, I don't lick random things, but I think it's important to have, like, be engaged with the tactile experience of the spaces that you're creating. If you're making— especially if you're making immersive environments, like, you need to know what the temperature is, you need to know how the marble feels, and what, like, what kind of marble is it? Is it silky? Is it rough? Is it smooth? Is it oiled? Like when you, especially if you're going to set your cell phone down on like a marble surface, what does it sound like when the marble comes in contact with your, you know, iPhone, right? So it's important to me to touch everything before it's made, uh, like in a hotel, right? If you're making the side tables or the amenity table or the bed, like how squishy is the mattress? So I'm going to go and jump on the mattress and I'm going to sit on it and sleep on it and jump on it with my son and be like, hey, do you like this mattress? And he'll be like, no. Because he's gonna say it straight up. And so I did lick the marble, and I've— I did lick the wallpaper for this hotel in Portland. But you know, it pays off when you lick the details. The hotel was shortlisted on Time magazine's greatest 100 places to go this year, and it won most innovative hotel of the year. So, um, I mean, I feel like because I care so deeply about the experiences that people have when they're in the rooms and when they're in the hotel that I also feel like it's important that I need to be fully engaged in all the materials and the choices and how it feels as if I was also staying in the room. So yeah.

Tommy: So you got someone who walks into a hotel room, say for instance, the one that won the award. I mean, as a, I would call him a gronk, as a gronk I'd walk in and I wouldn't really understand anything. I'd just be experiencing, right? So I put my phone down, I'm like, whatevs. But I know that there's something going on where I would probably be distraught interrupted if I felt a certain way. Are you a— is that, is that your job? Is what you see your job is to identify the stuff people don't consciously pick up on and then fine-tuning that?

Brooks: Absolutely. Yeah, I, I think a lot of it has to do with like unconsciousness of how people are going to feel when they're, when they're inside the space.

Josh: Should there be no friction, or is friction an important part of design?

Brooks: I guess it depends on what you mean by friction, especially in hotels. The friction might be a bad word of like that there's problems when a person comes into the hotel before they get to the guest room of like, that's causing friction. So in that regard, you don't want any friction. Um, but I, I would want you to set your phone down or like, for example, like I put leather on this bottom of this table and you would never know that unless you like put your foot on it, which you might. So then you'll be like, oh wow, that feels good on my foot. And then you look at it and you're like, that's not black leather. It's like navy blue textured leather. It's very weird. Right. So it's like these little secret details. Even the base of the lamp looks like pink concrete, but it's actually stained pink wood because it's more natural. And so there's this— in this particular hotel, the aesthetic was feminine Pacific Northwest, and that doesn't exist. That style doesn't exist. I had to make that up. And so I think the idea of like, how do you invent a style and how do you allow somebody to go into the room? They don't care what the style is. They just want to feel at home and they want to feel comfortable while walking around in their bare feet and jumping on the bed.

Tommy: I mean, it's such attention to detail. And then there's a, there's a bunch of designers, architects that aren't doing that. Is it like they don't even care, or what's the, what's the opposite approach to this?

Brooks: The, uh, the opposite approach would just be like you're churning out a bunch of rooms in a repetitive fashion, and whether it's like budget conscious or you're just rolling out so many of the rooms, you just don't have the opportunity to like fine-tune every single detail. You can probably control a few. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I'm trying to control everything all the way down to the smell, down to like what it feels if you're rubbing up against the wall, you know, or I love it. Yeah. Or if your head is touching the headboard, like, you know, people are loving the headboard in this particular hotel. It's really cool. Um, but also just the lights, we custom designed all the lights. The tiles are custom designed, like everything.

Josh: What do you think, uh, quality and premium mean?

Brooks: Well, that's a good question. Like, I think luxury doesn't need to be expensive. Like, a gold toilet doesn't necessarily mean luxury. I would rather put the bathtub in the middle of the room and let you like have a bath and watch the sunset at the same time. To me, that's more luxurious than a gold bathtub. And so, because that's what I'm trying to be like PG, because like I would say like it's way better to have sex in your bathtub watching the sunset than just stuck in the bathroom. Like, why am I in a small tiny-ass room taking a bath, right? I should see something. I should experiment with the world in a better way while I'm taking a bath.

Josh: And so what about like from a user experience point of view? Sometimes like I'll go to an amazing hotel, uh, with my girlfriend, but then the bathroom is very open and so before you know it, you're having to take a dump in that same area where you wanna have this sort of intimate experience. How much are you thinking about that user experience?

Brooks: 100% thinking of exactly that thing. Yeah, absolutely. You know, you have to consider all those scenarios and like, I guess like I would live them like mentally, you know, like I would put up a bunch of chairs and like tape off a space in the office and see like, is this close enough to sit next to somebody? Or does this create an intimate scenario? So I would reenact it in real life, you know, like as a mockup to be like, how does this play out?

Tommy: Right.

Josh: And where do hotel rooms go wrong, do you think? What's like the obvious thing when you walk into a hotel room that just gives you the shits?

Brooks: No pun intended. Light switches, lighting, outlet locations. Like if somebody is like looking for an outlet, that's a problem. What's the deal with—

Josh: I don't know if it's just the US, but sometimes like the light switch is actually for a lamp and then there's a fucking master light. And so then you can turn the master light off, but all that sort of stuff.

Brooks: Yeah, I mean, there's like different like code things of like what kind of lights you have to have on and stuff like that. But again, like when you first come in, like why am I seeing the sharp corner side of an amenity table or a credenza piece? Like that's not inviting to come in and just see the side of something and it's a sharp corner. So, you know, in this hotel in Portland, the Woodlark, we rounded all the edges of the amenity table and it actually has a hole cut out. And so you can see like wine and/or sparkling water or something as like a little gift bag in the side of this thing. It's also curved. I was also raised by a totally insane father who— we made wooden sailboats and like everything is curved wood and we actually had to build all this stuff. And so like all this kind of strange, like sailboat-making stuff and like weird construction projects that my dad would make me do. Just is influencing me on all the projects and grew up racing sailboats. So you can't, I can't get that out of my head. So it actually has a kind of a nautical theme to it. If now that I told you that secret, 'cause I haven't admitted that in different interviews, but like if you look at the hotel now and think like nautical.

Tommy: It's a boat. You built a big boat hotel. You've mentioned your son quite a few times and it's almost like that naive approach, just like, no, I don't like this or I do like this. How do you, where do you think we go wrong getting older getting a bit jaded, not maybe speaking out about the things that we don't like or do like?

Brooks: Great question. And I think this kind of ties a little bit about into my teaching philosophy as well, because I taught for 10 years architecture, interior design, and product design. And seeing these 20-somethings come in and being afraid to fail was terrifying me. And I was like, our education system is crushing creativity out of our kids. And so I would actually bring my— he was 2— I would bring him into class and let them see him and let him see them. And not that I was trying to scare the crap out of my students, although I was, but I would do it in a way where I was with them, like I was one of them. So I was 100% honest with them. I would bail them out of jail if they got arrested. They could— I would give them my cell phone on the first day of class. Call me anytime, text me. 24/7, I will text you right back. And so for me to be on the level of like, I'm 100% committed if you are, I will give you 100% of me if you do, right? So a lot of that, and a lot of the initial couple weeks of classes, is a lot of frustration from the students because nobody ever spoke to them that way or swore in class. They never seen a professor jump on the table and start dancing and screaming. But it was about eliminating universal preconceptions, and that sounds so easy, but basically you have to forget everything that you were— that you learned. And what's great about having a 5-year-old is that he doesn't know shit. He's stupid, right? They're dumb. Like, kids are dumb. Like, they don't know what they don't know, and so they ask the most basic questions, and those are the best questions. Even the statement of like, this salmon tastes weird— you're right. And like, I should have said that, but I didn't because I was afraid to upset the chef or something, or like I didn't want to offend anybody. But like, I mean, there are of course social norms and you don't want to upset people. So that one is a fine line. But the idea is that you see things new, try to see things new from a child's eyes or a child's perspectives, and you— and the world will open up to you in a totally different way.

Josh: So then what do you think about schooling and classrooms in general? As a way to try and unlock those types of things?

Brooks: Well, huh, that's a great question. I would be a huge advocate to go around and talk in every like public school in America, across America, to encourage creative thinking and creative problem solving. Because in the future, I think the one skill that you're going to need to know to get any job is creative problem solving. Anybody, you can learn the trade, you can learn anything, you can learn law and you can learn how to be a doctor. But creative problem solving is hard to teach, especially if those skills are crushed out of your soul when you're a kid. So playing through experimentation and playing and learning while you play and play-based learning and play-based experimentation and this idea of like nothing wrong with failing. I fail every day. I just do it fast. Yeah, because I'm not afraid of failing. So I just fail a bunch of times and then because the first couple of things you do are shit, so you got to fail quickly, get those out of the way, and then the really good ideas come in later. So it's about that kind of thinking process.

Tommy: So the fear of failure is crushing people's creativity?

Brooks: I would say 100%, yeah.

Tommy: We've got a young 20-something in the room, Mr. 97, our producer. He said before that he doesn't think he's creative. What do you think? I mean, you've just met him.

Brooks: Uh-huh.

Tommy: He's looking pretty cool with his haircut.

Josh: Yeah, can you—

Brooks: He does look cool.

Josh: I mean, there is that vibe that everyone is creative or everyone has that and they just need to unlock it.

Tommy: But then there's some people who think I'm not creative. What do you think about that school of thought?

Brooks: I think everyone is creative. I think that because of society being afraid of new ideas, that the social norms would be like, yeah, maybe you're not creative like Albert Einstein or like Andy Warhol. You might be super creative, like folding your laundry that I never thought about. Like, I had to watch this YouTube video on how to fold the fitted sheet. 20 times because I couldn't figure it out.

Tommy: I still can't do a double Windsor. It's because I watch and just copy the tie.

Brooks: Yeah, and the bow tie. It's hard to tie it in reverse through the YouTube videos, right? But I think it's so true, right? I can't do it. Um, but I think people are creative. They're just creative in different ways. That's why I love to collaborate. And the TEDx talk I gave, uh, which I joke it's like how to make a baby, it— the title is actually like, uh, Collaborative Opportunities Are Everywhere. So collaborate on how to make dinner. Right? And like, that's creative. Like, some people are more creative in like how they cook. That's creativity, you know. It's not— it doesn't have to be for design or for one thing or to invent something. It's just about how you think about things. You can be creative at folding laundry or creative at riding a bike or crashing a bike or whatever.

Tommy: What's, uh, something you've identified that's not your area of strength?

Brooks: I would say, before we get into that, before I admit all my vulnerabilities, I would say just watch any kid Any, every single child that I've ever seen now is 1,000% creative. No filters whatsoever. They're drawing crazy things, weird trees, like what, there's no rhyme or reason or right or wrong. That's creative. And for what, what, what that shows me is that there's an innate thing in human beings that they are 100% creative people or humans. Humans are 100% creative entities. And so what happens to you then? Then society and culture must crush that out if you think that you're not creative later in life, because that's BS.

Tommy: I mean, I get a whole bunch of paintings. I got a rock from my son with splash paint on it.

Josh: Genius.

Brooks: He's a genius, obviously.

Tommy: Genius, to be honest. But I think, I think you're someone who really knows your strengths. And to know your strengths, you also have to know where you don't shine.

Brooks: Yep.

Tommy: How do you identify the areas where you don't shine?

Brooks: Well, I wasn't prepared for that question, but so I would say like, I would, I will admit it here for the first time ever on any interviews ever, but I feel very vulnerable. A lot. Like, I, I, I, I'll put myself out there as far out into the nether region as possible and then like tether back into reality. So I'll try to push the boundaries with what I'm working on and the clients as far out as I can go, sensing that they get uncomfortable, and that's a really exciting space to be in. And then we can tailor it back. You can't, you can't start small and then later try to switch it and say, hey, what about this option? Then you can't go backwards. So you have to start out far out, and that then it makes me, I'm vulnerable in that state and I feel vulnerable 100% of the time. So I think that vulnerability allows me to operate in a way where it removes the ego because I'm letting, I'm asking for what do you think? And I'm collaborating with other people and I'm challenging and I'm constantly asking questions. And I think that allows for design opportunities to flourish.

Josh: How do people charge or make money through creativity?

Brooks: Well, there's different ways, there's different ways of charging. It just depends on the projects. Yeah. We charge differently for different things.

Josh: So I guess for someone who's just getting started where it's like, it's not necessarily tangible, like in the early days, there is that sense that you need to do like small tasks.

Brooks: Right.

Josh: It's very, very basic. Do you remember grappling with how am I going to do this thing that I love to do but also make cash so I can feed myself?

Brooks: So I think that's a trick question from your earlier question of like, what are your like flaws? And I think like running a business would be one of my not my strengths. And so I love to be part of a collaborative where we can all like help each other and learn like as a group how— and, and, and we learn from each project and how, how to do things differently and run things more efficiently as we go. And our profession is such an old-school profession that really hasn't evolved very much in terms of like a business. So I think, you know, we're really like looking to radically kind of rethink what the business of design is and how that works. So whether it's charging hourly or project-based or even based on the value that you add, a lot of people are doing different things. I love the value kind of proposition where it's not really based on hourly or how long it's gonna take you, but the value that you give to that project because it's of your unique skillset.

Josh: Yeah, and you've got, I feel like, a strong spirit and there'd be a bunch of younger people who look up to you and see what you're doing. I guess you're in a position now where you can be a bit fucking crazy, a bit wacky. You can tell clients, hey, no, this is how I wanted to do it. How did you grapple or work with the early stages where it's like, this is Brooks fucking out there having fun with the realities of being an early designer, someone who's just sort of getting started?

Brooks: Well, I think it's important, and especially for me, to try to like experiment and do things even if I know they're going to fail.

Josh: Yeah.

Brooks: Like, I remember my mom giving me all this advice and saying like, don't do that. And I would be like, thanks, Mom. I hear you. I have to do it anyways. I know it's going to fail, but I just need to feel what it feels like for it to fail. And so like, I trust you and I know you're right, but you gotta let me do it anyways. Even if I break my arm, I'm still gonna jump out of the tree.

Tommy: You learn the hard way.

Brooks: I gotta learn that. But being part of a collective and a place like Office Untitled with so many talented people, we're all able to do it together, and that allows for the safety of like, great ideas and great business strategies and practise and like, thinking of projects holistically. And that's what's allowed us to grow so fast, because we're only like 5, 6 years old at this point. And we've grown so fast and the scale of the projects that we're working on are so radically huge at this point. That doesn't normally happen until like you're in your 80s to be able to be working on projects of this size and magnitude. And it's so exciting. But I think that's because the talent and the collectiveness and the direction that the principals are going with the firm, it's just so, so powerful.

Tommy: Where do you like to spend most of your time? In the creative process?

Brooks: I mean, I like to interject at all different stages of the projects, obviously, like the conceptual phase at the very beginning, like brainstorming is super exciting for me. But I also like to see like how that gets physically translated into real things and made. And so that because that's also very difficult and also very fun and also very creative. But my, my background is also super technical and my dad's an engineer, my brother's an engineer, And so there is this love of figuring stuff out also. So those are also exciting. So it's all exciting for me. I love the fast-paced nature, but also like, you also need to stop, take a breath, and like think on things for a second. And that's important to kind of just like build that into the design process where you just like, nope, I'm gonna just like let this percolate for a second.

Josh: What are you obsessed about at the moment?

Brooks: Oh, what am I obsessed about? Well, licking details. Uh, uh, I think I'm obsessed of like, um, like emo— like how can I invoke emotions to things? So like this idea of nostalgia, I really, like, I was so against nostalgia and I've, I've 180'd and now I'm for it. And like, I love the fact, like, I recognise like That was a limitation. Like, why am I stuck on this thing? Nostalgia. Like, what's wrong with that?

Josh: What do you think it was?

Brooks: Well, I thought the, to my own, uh, you know, my own detriment, I was like, I thought nostalgia would hold me back creatively or create creatively or in a way to innovate because that was, because you're looking back, I was stuck. Yeah. I was looking back and like somehow the past was holding me back and I don't want, I don't live with regrets. Like I don't have any regrets. Because I also think that if you have a regret, then, then you're closing something, and I want to be open to things, even if it's a repeat. Um, so I thought nostalgia would just be like, oh, you can't— that's just going to hold me back. I wanted to make new things.

Josh: Yeah.

Brooks: And I was like, I was really pushing the boundaries. But also, like, nostalgia is a really nice kind of feeling. It's a good emotion. It allows you to connect to something in a deeper way. And I think those deep connections are super important. When you're making spaces and, and, and that idea of how people will feel in those spaces.

Tommy: What are you nostalgic about, like, from your past? Because you're sitting next to one of the most nostalgic—

Josh: I love getting into nostalgia.

Tommy: Oh, nice.

Brooks: Well, it's a great— it's a weird question because we moved around so much, so many things, so many times growing up that I never had one house. So if you ask me, like, where I'm from, I— it's hard, super hard to answer. I just say all of the Midwest because we moved everywhere around in the Midwest. And I never lived in one place longer than like 3 or 4 years.

Josh: What would you do when you got home from school? The first thing that you would do when you'd get home?

Tommy: Nostalgic question.

Josh: Yeah, I'm going to do it. Juggle.

Brooks: Yeah.

Josh: 3 balls or more.

Brooks: Yeah, 4. I was doing 4 and 5. I was doing rubber chickens and, you know, so I was kind of nerdy. No, I was not cool. And my mom is so crazy. It's super fun.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Brooks: But this is not how you get girlfriends in high school. Don't walk to school juggling. If any teenagers are out there listening, don't do that. So, but I was like, hey, Mom, what should I do? And she would just come up with the greatest things ever. She would, she would be like, you know, buy a Volkswagen Beetle and fix it up. And so like, well, we did that one time with my friends. We bought an old Volkswagen Beetle. I was 15. I didn't, couldn't drive. And we just bought it and we worked on it for 2 or 3 years. And then I'd be like, Mom, what should we do today? And she would be like, well, why don't you teach yourself to juggle? So we would spend like 4 months learning how to juggle and juggling with our friends. And when you didn't have YouTube tutorials like the kids do now, you had to teach yourself.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Brooks: Or you had to go and talk to somebody. Yeah, can you show me how to juggle? And there's not too many like juggling circus people in the Midwest, but like, you know, you can find them.

Josh: What sort of fast food did they have in the Midwest? Fast food? Yeah.

Brooks: Well, I mean, there was McDonald's and stuff, but we never ate there. We always just ate at home, and my mom would ring like a cowbell and we would all run home.

Josh: Really? What would she cook?

Brooks: Uh, well, so she's Southern, so she would cook super Southern food like fried chicken, rice and gravy, and like a lot of biscuits and just like heavy delicious food. I love it.

Tommy: Uh-huh. I'm loving this nostalgia.

Brooks: So that's very nostalgic. Like, you know, always eating at the dinner table and telling about our day. So that, that was very important to me. Like that kind of like connection at the, at the table.

Josh: Has that translated into your parenting, do you think?

Brooks: Yeah. So yeah, Fitz and I, we eat dinner at the table, but we draw at the table also. And there's no rules of like, hey, if you're full, then I'm not gonna force you to eat all the food on your plate, uh, we— like I was, uh, I mean, he, he, he's a great eater, so no, no worries. But I also like— we draw weird stuff and colour things in, and like maybe during dinner we'll just start painting our faces with paint and it turns into a paint fest.

Tommy: Moving around, you said every 3, 3 or so years, you haven't lived anywhere longer than 3 years, uh, do you think that like your past in that moving around has has been a place of inspiration for you in the creative fields that you're in?

Brooks: Totally. Yeah. I would think just being able to see so many different places and what I liked or didn't like, or even, even, even like design aside, just being like, I know there's another place other than this that I will belong to. And so I discovered there was this place called Chicago, and I was like, oh, this is the thing. Like, I'm going to move there. And then I discovered a place— there's a place called New York City. And I was like, wow, this is a fun place. I'm gonna move there.

Tommy: We asked an Uber driver the other day, what do you think of LA? And she said, I don't know anything else.

Josh: Yeah, it's like, shit, it was a good answer. It was great.

Tommy: Honest answer.

Brooks: That's a good answer. But if you— it's like being a writer. Like, to be a writer, you gotta go and do stuff. Like, you have to live and like, you know, have experiences. And I would say the same thing with designers, you know. And that was the number one thing I was trying to get my students— like, you have to go out and do things every day. You go and do something. I randomly moved to Paris, so like, from like from one week to the next, I sold all of my earthly belongings and just like packed up my bags and moved to Paris. I was in my 20s, didn't speak French, didn't know anyone, didn't have anywhere to live. I just showed up in Charles de Gaulle Airport.

Josh: What inspired you to do that?

Brooks: Just like I needed to see how another country taught architecture. I was in third year architecture school and I was just like, I gotta get out of here. So I moved to Paris and it was crazy. And yeah, it was difficult, but also like I went out every single day, 365 days out. Walking around. And/or I would hop on a train and go to another country because you can just do that in Paris, go to a different train station.

Josh: How long were you there for?

Brooks: I was a year, about a year and a half. Yeah. And so just like, you know, even just like arriving, I got a migraine headache in the airport, threw up everywhere, which was a great arrival for Charles de Gaulle. Welcome to Paris, you know. And then, but I figured out, I got downtown and my school was at the Beaux-Arts, so I went there. It was fucking closed. Nobody was there. I went early to try to learn French, right? And it was closed, so I didn't know what to do, so I just went to the café next door, and I didn't have anything to do, so I just sat there. I was reading and drinking coffee like you do, and so I just started, I heard music, so I started dancing on the sidewalk, and then somebody started yelling at me from above, like out the second storey window in French, and I was like, I don't know what you're saying. And so he's like, can you dance? And I was like, yeah, of course, like I'm dancing. He's like, can you dance all the time? I was like, yeah. He's like, I need you to dance in my nightclub, and I was like, wait a minute. I know I'm fresh off the boat, but like, what's going on here? And he's like, I need you to dance in my nightclub. Do you encourage other people to dance? Like, you dance first. And I was like, okay, I need a place to stay. I'm homeless. I just got here. I need an apartment. He's like, I have an apartment. You stay in my apartment. I'll pay you. You dance in the nightclub. And so now I'm a professional dancer because I got paid to dance.

Tommy: What kind of dancing was it?

Brooks: Just, just fun dancing. Just to get people to get out on the dance floor. And then I got to stay for free in that apartment for a couple of weeks.

Tommy: Thanks. We've talked a lot about travelling and sort of the, it's almost a persona or an energy or a courage that it summons up. It sounds like you went over there and it's, you know, thrusted you into a world that was not like at home. Is that fair to say that? Or were you dancing back at the States?

Brooks: I mean, I was dancing everywhere, but I mean, I was still terrified, right? I mean, it's scary. I was scared, you know, I didn't know what, I didn't have any life experiences. I never left the country.

Josh: Was it sad at the start? Was it a little bit, I don't know what's going on? Went right into it.

Brooks: I was totally right into it. And it's funny 'cause that's how my son dances right now at 5. You dance like nobody's watching you. That's a real thing. So that's what I was doing in Paris, like on the sidewalk.

Tommy: So what do you think about travelling and sort of the energy it provokes and that sort of courage it brings and how do you channel it back home? You're living in LA, it's home. You can sink into some habits and just, you know, comfortability. How do you get out of that? And do you get out of that?

Brooks: Well, I think just me as like a human, like, I do things. I go out and look for trouble, basically.

Tommy: What are you looking for?

Brooks: The more trouble I can get into, the better. And I mean that like a good thing. Like, this idea of like rebels, right, and rebel thinking. But, you know, rebels have this kind of bad connotation, like they're like messing up things, but I believe that they're— if you look at it from a different perspective, they're just challenging the norms, and they're— maybe they do it in a way that has a negative connotation, but if you think of rebel thinking in terms of design and experimentation, it's incredibly insightful how to approach design, because you have to be a super expert with tonnes of training to be a rebel, but then totally disregard all of your experience and training. And to approach things with totally like kid eyes. And then you'll come up with a new idea, but it's because you have tonnes of experiences that allows you to think differently. If you're just an expert and you just have like college training and no experience, then you're not gonna like come up with a totally radical new solution. You're just gonna base it on your own limited experience. But if you have tonnes of experience, you're gonna come up with like radically new ideas. So the more you can go out and travel and meet people and hear other people's stories, the more experiences that you have, then the more design ideas you're going to come up with.

Tommy: What's something you've— what's a piece of trouble or something that you've done that you've looked for that's reaped a great reward where you've gone, I've got the great idea based on doing that?

Brooks: Well, you're like, what was the most amount of trouble I got?

Tommy: I just— yeah, yeah, something that then has got you a great reward on the other side.

Josh: Using that rebel mindset.

Brooks: Yeah, well, I would say there was these— there was this project. Okay, so Showtime, the T— like the network Showtime, they do this charity house called the Showtime Showhouse, and they'll choose a designer and they'll give you a TV show that they have on their show, on their channel. They'll assign you a TV show, and then you design a space around the theme of that show. So they asked me to come in and give a pitch, and they didn't tell me what the show was yet.

Josh: They just wanted pitching, by the way. I'm good at pitching. Yeah.

Brooks: So, so I was like, okay, so, so we designed a bunch of really weird things just randomly because I didn't know what we were gonna do. But I had this idea that I wanted to simulate more— so I wanted to make a room to simulate multiple personality disorder which is an audible disease, so you can't distinguish the voices in your head. And so, then you know that Bob Dylan video where he has everything written on cue cards and he just throws them down?

Josh: Yeah.

Brooks: I think it's like Subterranean Homesick Blues.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Brooks: So, we did a whole presentation, we hand drew all the sketches on these big cue cards with words, kind of synced to a song, and then we came in playing, uh, I'll Be Your Mirror, uh, by the Velvet Underground, and then I threw all the cue cards down on the floor, kind of like singing the presentation. And then we walked out of the room. That was it. Like, walked in, played this thing, performance piece, and then walked out. And they're like, you're hired. And they assigned— they assigned us the United States of Terra with Tony Collette from Australia. And so we created this room to simulate multiple personality disorder. But it was very scary and terrifying and causing a lot of trouble because it's very strange. But everybody was excited about it. We created an avatar. We, we invented our own tracking software. So the avatar on the TV was a Toni Collette lookalike. My friend looks like Toni Collette, so we filmed her. They actually gave us Toni Collette. They said, you can use her, but she was filming somewhere in Australia, so we couldn't use her.

Tommy: I was once driving down the street and I looked over. It's Toni Collette.

Brooks: Yeah.

Tommy: Beach Road in Melbourne.

Josh: Good story.

Brooks: She's amazing.

Tommy: Yeah, I love it.

Brooks: I ended up meeting her later, but separate story. But so, so there's an avatar on the TV will follow you around, facial recognition software. We created at that time the world's longest free-spanning CNC wood structures with puzzle joints. So I think it was 35 feet at that time, which was the longest free span with no hardware. It was just self-joint like a puzzle. And then we painted it chroma key blue, which is what they use in films to, to green screen people. It's blue paint, actually. And then everyone had wireless headphones. And I collaborated with my friend Daniel Perlin, an amazing sound designer and an immersive environmental environment designer. And so he created all these weird noises in your head. So you're wearing wireless headphones. Everyone in the room was isolated because everyone had headphones and everyone had different sounds in their ears. So, and then you were in this weird room with this woman following you around on TV. So it's, that's what it feels like to have multiple personality disorder. And, uh, yeah, it was, it caused a lot of trouble, but it was the favourite room of the, of the event. So that's great. They loved it so much that they asked us to do the top, the roof. Which was just a bar. And so what was beautiful about the wireless headphones is if you kept them on and you went upstairs, it changed to a silent dance party. And so it was dance music, so everybody was dancing upstairs. And then my mom comes to the opening and my mom's wildly entertaining, way more than me. And so she stole the show. They're like, oh, you're Brooks's mom. And so nobody gave a shit about me, which is fine. They all hung out with my mom, which was even cooler.

Tommy: Have you got a mini me? Like, is your son like you?

Brooks: Yeah, yeah, I would say, yeah, pretty much.

Tommy: He's pretty much like both of us.

Brooks: And, and like just like a free spirit. Like, he'll dance anywhere. He, he, he's like, he has drum— he plays drums and guitar and harmonica and saxophone like at the same time, like all like simultaneously. It's pretty funny. Uh, and then, but he's like into art and painting and dancing. And he told me yesterday he wants to be the singer in a band, like the leader of the band, electric guitar. So I was like, okay, let's— we got to start working on that. So, but that's the beauty, like there's no limitations, there's no rules, just do just like, I'm just here to encourage him to just be as free as possible.

Tommy: Does it scare you watching him for the future and what the world's becoming and where it's going, or does it excite you? There's lots of possibilities.

Brooks: You know what, I was thinking a little bit more on the cynical spectrum when he was like an infant, but now I'm thinking like, this is great, the world is great, you can do all these things, and I'll help him do it. And it's scary to think like that some of the creativity might get crushed out of him. So I'm trying to keep it as open as possible now. But you know, some people think the world is scary now, and I think it's just like so much fun to be alive right now in this world. Yeah, it's, it's a fascinating, fascinating time to be a creative person, especially in LA. It's just a crazy building boom going on here. It's just wild, wild projects, huge-scale projects. The Olympics are coming here. The World Cup is coming here, and all the filming production studios are moving here. Apple, Netflix, Amazon, everybody. It's just an amazing creative mecca of the universe, unlike anything else.

Josh: The rebel thinking, the pushing back on rules— where does structure fit into your life?

Brooks: Uh, well, I try not to— I try not to have any structure, uh, but kids need structure, so obviously like there is like some structure sometimes. Uh, sometimes where do you find this?

Josh: Yeah, where do you find the structure? Do you wake up at the same time every morning?

Brooks: No, I mean, I try desperately not to do that. So every day when I take notes, I take notes differently. So some days I take notes on Post-its, sometimes I write it on my body, sometimes it's a notebook. Because the— if you do something repetitively, then you— then it becomes unconscious and then you're not aware of it. So if you have to make notes differently every day, how do you keep track of all your notes? Is the idea of writing down the notes— it's kind of like you don't, um, you know, things, things move fast. And so like I just write the notes to remember to do something, and then I do it, and then, and then you get— then it's done. So, um, but I, you know, I, I try to do different things at different times of the day each day, but I also try to set a time like heads down, don't bother me, like I got— I'm in the zone, like don't mess with me.

Josh: So do you have certain rituals or routines then? No, no, no.

Brooks: The ritual would be is, is that I approach— my ritual would be I approach everything as if it's a project. So even taking a bath with my son, I'll be in the bathtub with him and maybe we have a bread bag, an empty bread bag, cause like, you know, maybe we don't have any toys. So, and then we'll fill it up and we'll use it as a punching bag. Cause it's just like funny and like, what is water splashing around the bathroom? Hell yeah. But is that a problem? No. So, you know, it's just like, have fun, make some bubbles, punch some bread bags.

Tommy: That's a great idea. I'm going to try that one.

Josh: Yeah, I love that.

Tommy: It's fun holding up a bread bag.

Josh: What about driving around? So like, obviously being previously New York, East Coast, I guess people are driving less. LA, you sort of need a car. How has that changed the way you think about ideas and create?

Brooks: Well, that's a good question. I grew up driving cars, not good at them. I crashed a lot when I was younger. Then being in New York, I hadn't had a car for 16 years. I did have a car for a couple months. My sister bought this BMW for a dollar, gave it to me. I had it on the Upper West Side. I got a ticket every day, sometimes twice a day. So after like $1,000 in tickets in like a week, you're like, no way, forget it, you know, get rid of the car. So I gave it back to my sister.

Josh: Why would— what were the tickets you had to pay?

Brooks: Because you have to move your car every like 4 hours.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Brooks: You have to change sides of the street for alternate street— side of the street parking. And so on. So I did get— I ended up getting a motorcycle, which I think that's maybe more interesting storey of how I met Christopher Walken with— on the motorcycle. But so— but now back to your point in LA driving, I kind of use it as a safe meditative moment where I'll listen to creative podcasts., and other podcasts. It's a great time to be just, cause it's an hour commuting from Los Feliz to Culver City. Uh, and so it's weird to have a car. It also feels very liberating and free cause we'll just drive like randomly to Ojai or to Palm Springs or Joshua Tree, just like randomly. Like people think it's so far, but it's like, it's only an hour or 2 hours. Like that's nothing. Like we can go there and back. Like I'll go to Ojai for dinner and come back. And so I love that, the freedom that that gives. Plus in LA, in 45 minutes you're in a totally new paradise. You never have to go on vacation 'cause you're in vacation. But the car, I mean, that book On the Road by Kerouac just had such a profound influence on me. I just like love that idea of like freedom of just like, and I'm a Sagittarius also, so just like being able to go anywhere I want at any moment is important to me.

Tommy: You've been to Melbourne a few times.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What's any, I mean, that's our hometown. Any good stories, any kind of creative inspo that's come out of Australia?

Brooks: Well, first of all, Australia in general is just fascinating design-wise, just like all the design experimentation that's going on there is wild. I was incredibly touched and moved by the amount of thoughtfulness that went into all the design that I saw there. Melbourne in particular, just 'cause I ended up there and like, all the people that I met were mostly in Melbourne. Super fascinating, very experimentational and creative group of people, like LA in the way. And it's not like, I don't give a fuck, but it's like, let's try stuff because we're in Australia and we're far away from anything. So you don't, you don't care. You're just gonna end up— you're just like, well, we're— we love food and coffee and like live to live life. Like, that's the people and that's the attitude I got there. Um, even so, like random strangers I met were like, hey, let's collaborate and let's make a music, uh, a music festival. And so I ended up doing that 3 or 4 years now. It's called Swell Music Festival. It's just like an experimental, choose your own weird interactive, how to interact with music in general, but also like how to act with musicians and bands and It's a super experimental, like on the cusp of cutting edge, how to listen to music in a totally new way. It's really cool.

Tommy: I need more randoms saying to me, let's collaborate.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: But then I might think, ah, this person might be bullshitting. How do you know when someone says let's collaborate and you go, ah, yes or no? How do you know when to say yes and no with a random?

Brooks: Uh, hmm. So like, I'm not totally into astrology, but I just had my star chart read and like, I don't know anything of what it means, but, uh, what I'm getting from it was, uh, I'm a— like, all of my signs are heading towards all being Sagittarius. Um, uh, with some— I think my moon is in Pisces. So what I was told was, is that I pick up on the energies of of the people that are around me. And so I feel like when somebody's like, hey, do you wanna collaborate? I can tell right away if they mean it or if they don't mean it. And plus, like, if you have a second meeting or a third meeting, then you'll know right away. So like, say you wanna collaborate and then like just have a follow-up meeting and then you'll know how serious people are. But I think people already have a sense from me of like, I'll do it. Like, I'll do anything once. No matter what it is. So I'm totally game with collaborating on anything. Shoes, I did make a pair of shoes based on like sound, so the shoes would move around while you walked around based on the sounds of the environments that they were in, with United Nude and like other like weird collaborations. So yeah, I mean, if you're gonna come to me and be like, do you want to collaborate? I'm going to say yes.

Josh: I'll think of an idea and then I'll be giving you a message before, before the episode episode started, you grabbed your phone and put it onto your desk. How has the connectedness and phones changed the way that you create or live life?

Brooks: You know, I like the— I like the ability to share ideas fast with random people, uh, in the office or outside of the office. Friends will be like, hey, cheque this out, hey, cheque this out. Or even just like people in the office are like, Brooks, I saw this, cheque this, you know, this. And it's so great to be able to see and share ideas We don't use them in terms of like inspiration per se, of like, oh, look at all these images and I'm gonna just turn the design into these images. What we'll use, like emotions and feelings and ideas that we get from the images, but then, you know, we have discussions about them and, and we, you know, we kind of like iterate from there. But it's a great starting point and a way to share ideas quickly. Which didn't happen before. And even clients— and this is a really unique way of operating— of like, clients are texting us. Like, gone are the days that you spend 3 months putting a huge presentation together and the presentation is like 6 hours long. It's like, no, we're presenting every 2 weeks, intermediate, quick, fast, so we can do things much faster and much quicker. And so when, when clients are sending you Instagram images through direct messaging in Instagram. It's just a faster way of communicating, and I think it moves and pushes the boundaries faster and further, quicker. It's intense. Everything becomes more intense that way, but I believe it pushes the boundaries quicker, and it allows for everyone to feel that they're being— that they're collaborating with a team and not just like one person.

Josh: Have you had to create limitations around it, or I guess if you're having stimulus, like, I guess you're into a lot of input, just constantly having input and stimulus. If you've got a noisy client who might not necessarily, uh, be providing the best inputs, can you just sort of filter, self-filter that in real time, or do you have mechanisms to control your inputs?

Brooks: Uh, I mean, that's a good question. I think all, like, let, like, just give it to me and I'll filter it, you know. Like, just, I think all, all input is good input. And, you know, this idea of like a win-lose scenario, right? That's what people talk about, win-lose. I haven't found a scenario where the lose scenario cannot be flipped to a win. So in any given moment, I'm going to try to take the win-lose and make it a win-win. Everyone benefits this way. So if you just go around with your life, in your life now and like your everyday, like just think, oh, this is a win-lose, like just Just flip the lose and then it's a win-win. And then everyone is so much happier that way.

Josh: How do you find out if you're in the middle of a pitch or you're speaking to clients, how do you identify when it is that win-lose and how would you adjust?

Brooks: Well, I mean, ultimately, like, the pitches can be win-win pitches and you're still not selected for the project. So that's fine too. You know, it's just the projects take a long time. So you also need to vibe with the people and like the personalities all It's a lot like matchmaking, I think, when you working with clients. Think of it as like a matchmaker in a way. But in terms of like recognising the lose scenarios, I think it's pretty easy because you're like, why is there friction going on here? Like, if you're asking for this and I'm trying to deliver that, I think it's just a communication issue of like, I didn't communicate it correctly, or your wishes weren't communicated to us correctly, and so So it's just about fine-tuning our method of communicating with each other our ideas. So I'll try to just like, well, I hear what you're saying, but like, did you think about this? Or I'm hearing this, is that what you said? So it's just like kind of reiterating what the clients are saying and switching it.

Tommy: Do you think time restrictions, say on a project, conducive to, you know, nailing a creative concept. So time expands to the— no, the task expands to the time assigned. You have a short period of time. Can you still do great work in the short period of time?

Brooks: Uh, the answer is yes. Um, uh, time, time, time, time, time. Uh, so sometimes the more time is not good. Uh, then you, then you, you lose focus. Sometimes short amounts of time are really good, but it's very intensive. I mean, it's like that storey about Picasso doing the sketch on a napkin for this guy in like 10 seconds, and then the guy's like, how much do you want for it? And Picasso's like, $20 million or whatever. And he's like, but it took you 5 seconds, you know? But he's like, but it took me my whole life to draw that for you, right? So a lot of it is like that, of like the relativeness of time doesn't matter You're the same creative. Like, I'm not gonna be less creative and because I have less amount of time. It's just, it's just a willingness to be intense about it up front. The projects move so fast now. Time really isn't a considerable, considerable factor. The expectation you're doing the same amount of work in this, in this, in the faster amount of time now, that's just the norm. And unfortunately, but also it's sick It's exciting, but it's just the intensity level goes way up.

Josh: Personal branding or personal brand, do you think, is it a dirty phrase or do we embrace it?

Brooks: Well, I think brand is important so people can understand like what services and what difference you, differentiates you from other offices. No, I don't think that's a dirty word at all. I think it's super helpful. Like, you know what you're gonna get when you go to Apple and you know what you're gonna get if you go to, you know, the Gap or something, right?

Josh: So what about like the personal level? So I guess you, you've got your business, but then you've got you as an individual. Yeah. How much of the things come natural to you? And this is just— these are the glasses that I wear and this is the blazer that I have on versus this is what Brooks would wear, this is what I want, this is what I'm wanting to communicate to people.

Brooks: Yeah, well, I think the beauty of, uh, of, of, of, of Office Untitled in particular is like you're encouraged to just be you. Like, we would never like crush people's identity or their own creative freedoms because that would be limiting. That would be like putting blinders on, right? And so we don't want to do that. You know, I'm just, I'm just born this way. And so like, yeah, I have this funny jacket on and like, cuz that's just the way that I like to dress.

Josh: Jacket?

Tommy: Thank you.

Brooks: I mean, it's like a silk smoking jacket, right? But like with weird Japanese tattoos on it.

Tommy: I couldn't pull it off.

Josh: Yeah, I couldn't do it in LA just because I get hot very very quickly.

Brooks: Yeah.

Josh: Is it like, do blazes and stuff become issues in LA, or you—

Brooks: well, layers are important, so leather is, is really great. And that's the main reason I moved here, is so I can wear leather.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I, I want to hear the storey of Christopher Walken.

Brooks: Okay, okay, okay. So, well, you talked about, uh, what does a car mean to you, and it's really more about a motorcycle. And so I grew up racing sailboats with my dad. He started racing when I was 3, and So being on a sailboat is very philosophical and that sounds weird, I know, but like it's very quiet. You're following the— you're chasing the wind. Basically, you're watching the wind move around on the water and then you chase it to try to go faster. So it's very zen. It's very philosophical. It's very beautiful to me. Also, being from the Midwest, being out on the water, being pushed around by the wind also was very scary, but in a beautiful way, like like, it felt like flying. Then I'm living in New York and I have a younger brother and I go out to Connecticut and my family lives out there. And I was like, uh, his name's Will. I was like, Will, teach me how to ride a motorcycle. And so he did.

Tommy: Haha.

Brooks: And then I just took it and drove it back to the city the same day. Like, I just stole it from him and drove back to New York City. So now I have a motorcycle in New York City, which is crazy because I live on the Upper West Side. I'm wearing leather pants. I have a motorcycle That's not the vibe of the Upper West Side. I'm standing out, so everyone in the neighbourhood knows me. They're like, "That's Brooks, you know, he has a motorcycle." Okay, so I'm driving around, I'm on the motorcycle, leather pants, I don't fit in. I went to Columbia for my master's in architecture, and so that's why I live up there on the Upper West Side. Plus, the boat basin on 82nd Street is like 100 feet from my apartment, so I ended up sailing sailboats on the Hudson and giving tours. I'm a captain, so I have my captain's license. My friend has a 42-foot yacht. Foot sailboat. So I'm sailing, I'm giving tours after work around the Statue of Liberty, blah blah, on the sailboat. So that's super funny. So anyways, so I have the motorcycle and I'm just sitting on my street. Uh, when you start the motorcycle, you warm it up for a second. So I'm sitting on the motorcycle, I'm warming it up, and then I get this tap on my shoulder of this like man hand. I can tell cuz it's like a tough tap on my hand. And he's like, hey kitty boy, what's up? And I was like, what the fuck? So I turned around and it's Christopher Walken. And I was like, oh, hey Chris, what's up? And I turn off the motorcycle and he's like, hey, I seen you around. And I was like, okay, okay. I hope that's okay. A good, a good thing. And he's like, yeah. Um, do you live here? And I was like, yeah, I live right there across the street. And he's like, you got a motorcycle. You don't fit in around here, do you? And I was like, no, you know, Chris, no, I don't fit in. And he's like, uh, so I live right here. And I was like, okay, cool. You know, and it's right there, right? I'm, I'm in front of his house. And his brownstone. He's like, you want to come up for a glass of wine? And I was like, you're not gonna cut me up into little pieces and eat me, are you? Cuz like, I was terrified. He might do that, I don't know. Like, he's been in Vampire.

Tommy: Stab you in the face with a sword. Yeah, that's a line from—

Brooks: exactly. So I was terrified, but also like, yeah dude, of course, of course. So he brought me in and like gave me a tour of his house, which is crazy awesome cuz he has all these like weird things from different movies. So it's like definitely a place to cut people up and eat them. Like, that's the place to do it.

Tommy: And maybe you wouldn't think a famous guy is gonna do that. Yeah, no, no, I know, but no, he wouldn't do that.

Josh: Christopher Walken.

Brooks: So he's giving me this tour, and then he— his wig maker lives next door, so— and they're like conjoined, the brownstones. And he's like, oh, come over to cheque it out. And I was like, this is weird, because now I'm having Silence of the Lambs flashbacks, because it looks like— if you've never seen somebody make wigs they make them with real human hair and it's like a loom.

Tommy: Oh no.

Brooks: And it looks like they're going to cut you up and to eat you and then put you on the loom and make a wig out of you. So I was like even more terrified. So I was like, I'm never coming out of this place alive. Like, you've taken me and I'm never gonna see the light of day. But no, they didn't eat me and I'm here talking to you now.

Tommy: That's great. A wig maker. I mean, is that a common thing? Christopher Walken wears a wig. Is that—

Brooks: I don't know. I mean, I can't answer that. It was just a wig maker there.

Tommy: It was all a bit weird.

Brooks: It's very cool. You're talking about podcasts.

Josh: Podcasts that you listen to? What, what are some that you, you enjoy?

Brooks: So right now I'm listening to Dolly Parton's America. It's amazing. Yeah, I love her so much too. She's amazing. And it's a fascinating insight into her and how she— everyone loves Dolly Parton. Everyone. Doesn't matter who you are or where you're from or what colour your skin is or where you came from or if you're an immigrant or not. Like, everyone loves Dolly Parton. It's amazing. And why is that? And that's what the podcast is kind of about.

Josh: Yeah, cool.

Brooks: So I'm listening to that, and I'm listening to Hidden Brain on NPR, which is a fascinating podcast. And I also love Radiolab, is another. Those are my top ones.

Josh: Yeah, great. Lovely. Well, thank you so much for giving us the full— it feels like the Brooks experience. Yeah, getting the tour, getting to see both toilets, getting to see out the back with the The 3D printing is pretty great.

Tommy: We need to get a photo of us in the toilet. Sounds weird, but I think we need to, at least for the photo we post.

Josh: Do you have any plans of coming back to Australia anytime soon?

Brooks: I would love to come back. We'll probably do another music festival. It's called Swell. You know, I actually haven't actually gotten to go to any of the music festivals just because like I had my son and like something kept coming up, so I kept missing it. But I would like to go back if we do another one. Otherwise, like like come back for Design Week and, uh, see what's going on.

Josh: Oh, definitely.

Tommy: Yeah. Well, thanks for having us in the Coachella room.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Brooks: Thank you so much. I'm honoured to be here today, and I appreciate the time.

Josh: Thanks so much, Brooks. It's a Daily Talk Show. If you've enjoyed the show, feel free to share it on Instagram in the stories, tag us up. Uh, feel free to email us as well, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.