Josh Simons On Investment & Looking After Yourself

Josh: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show and we are live in Burbank, California.

Tommy: And we've got Josh Simons back on the show.

Josh: Hi guys.

Josh: Do you remember what we were doing last time when, when we, uh, drank on the mimosas?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, not to be mistaken with samosas, which is an Indian, which I had yesterday. Yeah, because we have, uh, where we take our dog to get, um, you know, health stuff fixed.

Tommy: Like a vet, yeah, yeah.

Josh: That's the word, I'm not one with the words today. There is an Indian store, but it's a vegan Indian store next door. So they have samosas.

Tommy: Nice.

Josh: Well, I've actually just gone vegetarian. Have you? Yeah.

Tommy: Oh my God.

Josh: Tommy's being sarcastic 'cause I've brought it up in every interview. It's been 3 weeks.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess you can say. I mean, this has been challenging for him, this trip.

Josh: Josh, because you can't— Yeah, everything here has cheese.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Well, just cheese is okay because I'm not vegan.

Josh: I'm only just joking.

Tommy: But then every other thing has a meat patty or some kind of smoked meat in it.

Josh: But the Impossible Burger is taking off right now. Everyone is. Every restaurant has it. So, I think you'll be okay.

Josh: We went to the Cheesecake Factory and I had the Impossible, but I had it on like a mac and cheese thing.

Tommy: Alright, I'm going to steer away from food chat because we're only in LA for a few days.

Josh: Can I just say that I tried going vegan? I announced it on my 365 Grateful Instagram page that I did last year as a little year-long mission thing, and I did it for a week, and then I forgot, I forgot that I was doing it. I just kind of stopped doing it. I just felt like a burger one day, and that was the end of that. Veganism, you know, it's like one of those experiments that you, you don't commit to, so you just make it my life.

Tommy: Can you, um, paint the picture of where we are right now?

Josh: Okay, so this is a recording studio, um, Well, you guys can't see this, but you guys can see this, but the people watching can't. And so I guess I work with a company called Young and Vicious. It's like a management/publishing company. And so this is one of their songwriter rooms. So you come here to work on material if you're, you know, developing a new act or writing a song for a project. So this is— I thought I'd bring you here to show you something other than my apartment.

Josh: How do you know what lyrics are cheesy and what are genius? The reason I bring it up is because we're just listening to, uh, the Chick-fil-A song by Kanye.

Josh: Oh yeah, I've been asking you, have you been— have you listened to the gospel yet?

Josh: The whole album?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it. Well, it's growing on me.

Josh: Yeah, I hadn't heard all of it.

Tommy: So Kanye's released an album, it's called Jesus Is King, and it's, uh, it's basically a Christian album by the biggest rapper in the world.

Josh: That's right. I like it.

Josh: I—

Josh: it's grown on me a lot too. I think it's cool that he's working with the whole different group of people. Uh, so, you know, in fact, the studio that we used to work at when you last saw me was, was his studio, Good Music. And then that was shut down in April. And then he's kind of replaced his whole team since Coachella. Uh, he had a bit of a moment, and he was already doing this thing, Sunday Service, which is— I'm sure you guys all know, but, um, I actually don't. You don't?

Tommy: Okay.

Josh: Sunday Service is like every Sunday he puts on a mass, basically, but they sing gospel tunes, but they also reimagine his old songs and change the lyrics so that it's more, um, I don't know, service to God. And they get rid of all the blasphemy and all the, you know, swearing and stuff. So anyway, he's been doing Sunday Service since January, and he's always had this dream apparently of bringing church to the masses. And Kanye can kind of do— I mean, he can sell sneakers en masse, he can sell baggy pants en masse, you know, um, pink shirts. So he's had a history of bringing anything that he wants to make big he generally can make big. So he's tried it with the church. And anyway, and then he— I think it actually, at some point, he decided, actually, no, I'm dead set serious about this.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And he redid his whole album that he'd been working on called Yandi at that point. And he worked with a couple of people who, you know, have spent their whole life dedicated to the church and the gospel and rewrote all the lyrics and made it very God-focused. And it came out recently as Jesus Is King.

Tommy: Well, I put one on because I said, Josh, this song reminds me of you, because Josh told me— fun fact— Chick-fil-A, not open on Sundays. And then I heard, I was running, I had it in my ears, running around West Hollywood, and that came on. I was like, this is classic.

Josh: I'm a genius. I was rapping. I didn't even know it.

Josh: There you go. The funny thing, I actually drove downtown for, I've got a hair on this microphone that I have to get rid of.

Josh: It's been bugging me. Definitely Tommy's pubes.

Josh: Fantastic. Fluff.

Josh: Whatever you call it.

Tommy: Mr. Marty Stevens. That's what he calls them.

Josh: Yes, I was down, I was driving, I was getting an Uber downtown a couple of days ago for a meeting and people, multiple cars along the way downtown because I had the window down, were blasting this Jesus Is King album. I saw— it's amazing that he's brought all these people, these hardcore people, and they're, you know, you know, cool cars, and it's LA blasting the church. That's great. Yeah, I think it's amazing. But, um, I don't know, his, his spiritual journey and just the idea of transformations and what he's done in, in a period of a year fascinates me at the moment because I think I've had just personally, a year of also like setting some goals and wanting to be a better person and trying to kind of find, I don't know, not find myself because I never really, I didn't lose myself, but just I just wanted to be better, frankly. I think when I saw you last, like I was probably living a not so healthy life, not as clean as I'm trying to be now. And so I kind of, I relate to it on that level. There's like, I think it's great when a major megastar artist has a message that's really just try and be better.

Josh: Could he be the next like Hillsong Church? Like, could we see Kanye go all out and be a pastor?

Tommy: Conspiracy Jimmy, friend of the show, he said to me, oh, I reckon he's trying to— he said, I heard that he's trying to create the church tax write-off for Yeezus.

Josh: There's actually— I've heard some stuff around that too, that maybe there's something to in terms of like the merchandise around it. And yeah, who— I don't know how they're going to address that. Because it's costing him— well, it's costing him a lot to put on these shows every Sunday anyway, and that's out of pocket, so that's an expense. I don't want to get into his tax situation. I don't know, I'm speculating, but I would hazard a guess that there's some sort of, uh, clever accounting. Yeah, going into that. But again, I don't really want to comment too much.

Tommy: Yeah. Can you go to these services?

Josh: Yes, like recently. Not, not to begin with. When it started, it was like celebrities and You know, Orlando Bloom and people like that. Now that you can usually reserve tickets on the weekend, I haven't gone.

Tommy: Um, where are they in LA?

Josh: The ones in LA have been at the Forum, which is in Inglewood, which is on a Sunday, which is like the only day I sleep in. It's just a little bit too far from my house. It's just laziness is why I haven't gone. Um, but probably should.

Tommy: And you get to see him perform. Yeah.

Josh: He stands in the middle of this big circle.

Tommy: It's Jesus.

Josh: It's a little bit— well, it's— it could be perceived as a little bit cultish.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I think that's— if it goes more in that direction, maybe that's when I step out a little bit.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: But it's— I don't have any issue with like God and all of that. I mean, my wife's family is totally, um, non-secular and very much, you know, her brother's a— I think he's a pastor.

Tommy: I should know.

Josh: I think he's a pastor.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: Anyway, so it's in— it's in our family, kind of. It's not it's not 100% me, but I have no issue with it whatsoever. And Wesley, with the school we went to, was kind of— we went to church once a week, sang hymns, and didn't sneak out and smoke cigarettes.

Tommy: But now everyone just goes to this one wearing Yeezys, so they're much cooler than the Wesley kids.

Josh: Yes, yeah, every— yeah, this church, everyone's wearing Yeezys and baggy clothes.

Tommy: And so, uh, last year, 198, that was the episode I think we're at. 198 was when you were last on, um, the best one, right?

Josh: Oh, it's the highest view count, mate.

Josh: Huge. 6 billion.

Tommy: And so at that time, Vampr, your tech startup, at what point does it become not a tech startup? When do you move out of startup phase?

Josh: That's a funny question because I was liaising with the head of South by Southwest the other day, and they said in this email very confidently, well, you're not a startup anymore, so we've got to find a different way to get you involved, whether it's speaking on panels. Well, that's cool. And then I went to a conference like a day or two later and they told me why we were very much still a startup, like this particular VC. So, you know, I think it's—

Josh: it's—

Josh: people still call Uber a startup and Airbnb. I think you're a startup until you list, really. Yeah, until you go public. Um, and I don't care about the, uh, the title. I don't really care for labels, full stop, anyway. It doesn't change how we run the company. Um, but where were we at that stage? I think because And we talked about this before the cameras started rolling, but what a year it's been. And both for you guys, I'd love to talk about that a little bit, but certainly for us, because I wouldn't— I didn't know then, and we spoke in early November, I think.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: I didn't know then that 2 months later I'd have to become an expert in crowdfunding. And it's insane. Like, there's— if you'd spoke to me back then and said, what are you an expert in? There definitely would have been a few things. Like, I think I'm an expert in the space of professional networking in music, for example. I understand probably better than anyone how these social networks work in that particular space. Certainly wasn't an expert in crowdfunding, although I had my ideas about what might work, what might not work.

Josh: What was your perception of crowdfunding at that time, do you think?

Josh: Very ugly view.

Josh: Well, I guess Kickstarter— a year ago there was a lot of news around Kickstarter failing and people not like making a bunch of cash but then not being able to deliver, right?

Josh: And so there was that, that was that stigma. And then equity crowdfunding is something that just people I knew what it was. So equity crowdfunding being you're actually selling a piece of your company in exchange for cash as opposed to giving away a coupon or a basketball.

Tommy: You get a tripod at the end of it.

Josh: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Or even a pre-purchase. So some people use Kickfunders to fund the development of a product and then you get the product at the end of it. So this pen, which as you write also digitises it, sounds great. When we build it, you'll get one.

Tommy: And it's bullshit.

Josh: Right.

Josh: And sometimes—

Tommy: You would have bought one of those back in the day.

Josh: Yeah, I bought some dumb shit.

Josh: He's got 10 of them. No, I bought a device that—

Josh: would give you 4G anywhere around the world. And the idea was that you just, uh, make any sense technically. I know, but the way that, the way that it would work was they, they had all these deals with telcos around the world and you'd pay a flat $10 fee. But it was, it was fucked.

Josh: It, yeah, it sounds like MoviePass. Have you heard about MoviePass?

Josh: Yeah, it was fantastic. It was what, $12? Was it $12 a month?

Josh: Yeah, it was very low. So you basically, $12 a month and you can go to any cinema in America and watch as many movies as you want.

Tommy: Oh, this sounds good.

Josh: Yeah, great to the consumer. How do you think I don't think that business model works out. Now, they had no deals with any of the cinemas, so you got this credit card. I think it was like a Visa or a MasterCard, and you swiped and you just bought tickets the normal way, but you charge it to MoviePass. So you just, you're just putting it on their tab.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And then they went out of business.

Josh: They certainly did.

Tommy: What was their model? We get so many people, most people won't go, so we get more money.

Josh: It's like a gym membership, but fat cunts are going to the movies.

Josh: And then, and so then to save the company as it was dying, what they started doing was they go, okay, well, you can't go to Batman or the Joker. Yeah, you know, anything that people want to go to, but you can go see, you know, that indie flick at 4 PM on a Thursday. Yeah. And so they tried all these different ways, and then they announced they were going under, but they didn't cancel anyone's subscriptions. So then they start— I mean, it's just, it's just a comedy of errors. It's fantastic. It's a great storey in how not to run a startup. And ironically, all the cinemas did go, well, there's actually something here, and most of them now have their own version of it. Yeah, but they control it because it's their own cinema. So they have control of the margins and all that kind of stuff.

Josh: They could pick days, right? Yeah.

Josh: And so anyway, but, um, so any equity crowdfunding, yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, you're selling an actual slice of the company, a security in the company. So I had to become an expert in that because we had some funding— I'd say challenges so much as we couldn't raise as much as we needed in short enough amount of time. So we said, well, we're still going to keep on with the private raise, which we've nearly closed, I think. But let's try and tap into our user base. And also, for the first time ever, we'll be actually going and seeing, will Vampr users actually spend money on Vampr? Because that was the question. I think that was the problem that a lot of VCs had with the company, was you've done a great job bringing all these people on— excuse me, got dry mouth for some reason. That's okay.

Tommy: The fires.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, seriously. Um, but, um, the one issue everyone always had was like, can you guys actually get people to pay money? Well, now I think something like 700 of our users in the last 3 months have spent $400,000 or something.

Josh: Amazing.

Josh: On this crowdfunding campaign. So I think we've answered that question. We've also raised some money and I've had to become an expert in tax law in like different states, different countries.

Tommy: Because it's, it's open to anyone from anywhere in the world.

Josh: It's really, really scary how much you have to learn and understand and be careful about.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. And so Vamper, if people hadn't listened to the early one, how do you explain—

Josh: and they should.

Tommy: Yeah, they definitely should. How do you explain the concept Vampr and what, what, what you guys— what the platform is.

Josh: I suppose back then it was, it was dedicated, uh, social professional music network, which is, you know, in layman's terms, LinkedIn for musicians. Um, we're now actually opening it up and it's— we're kind of calling it— we're not calling it this, but we're sort of pitching or pivoting the, the crowdfund campaign around LinkedIn for creatives. So we've been adding categories— filmmakers, fine artists, graphic artists, 3D art. Yeah, basically anything that's in the creative field that's complementary to one another, we're trying to find a way to accommodate because we see that the more people on the platform, the bigger the value for all because you have more people to tap into. And we looked at LinkedIn a little bit more ahead of the crowdfund prep and we said, we really, you know, only 4% of everyone on LinkedIn is in a field that would be deemed creative. So that's a real opportunity. Because more than— there's more people working in creative fields than just 4% of the population. It's just that it's kind of, in some respects, it, uh, proves our hypothesis that LinkedIn's hopeless for creatives. Doesn't really help you.

Josh: It doesn't have the showreel. It doesn't allow you to demonstrate the type of work.

Josh: No, I mean, yeah, there's no— you can, I guess you can attach one video and one picture per resume listing, but that's— it's very banal, you know. It's a lot of scrolling, it's a lot of clicking. Vampr is very audiovisual, and for those who haven't seen it, it's Tinder-style sort of UX, UI, so you can flick through and quickly watch how people, you know, uh, inter— sorry, perform and, and, and display themselves, their image, they have their vibe. Um, so it's, it's very— ours is, I guess, it's, it's very much a professional network, but it's audiovisual, um, and it's gamified. And because I think networking is probably the most boring thing in the world, and we may have touched on that last time, I still believe that, uh, it's, it's— most people don't want to have to network, you know. It's kind of an unfortunate thing you have to do in order to get ahead. Um, so how can you gamify that? And how can you take something that might take 7 years to do— like, for example, Baz and I, it took about 7 years to find our bandmates in the projects that ended up making us money— how can we do that in 7 seconds? And that's Vampr. But now we're trying to do that for more creative fields, and we've just started, so I can't really comment on the success of that. Like, I can't say we've helped introduce a filmmaker with an actor or anything like that, but That's kind of where we're going. But, you know, music is still, I suppose, in our DNA as musicians. And we're in a studio right now.

Josh: How is being in LA dictated features within Vampr?

Josh: It's certainly helped us map out features we want to do. There's some really exciting stuff we're starting to look at around content from our users. Like, we get— right now we tell our user storeys on Instagram. And, you know, they get a decent number of hits, like a few thousand people watch how someone else has used Vampr. We realised that these people have really rich storeys to tell about their experiences on the platform and, and their experiences of meeting someone from the platform, and then they've gone on and toured the world together. And I think we did a storey the other day, we did two storeys on three different marriages that have happened from Vampr.

Tommy: Really?

Josh: And even though that's not the focus of the platform, that's phenomenally cool, right? That something we built has led to people getting married, sharing houses, building studios. So we want to find ways— we've got some ideas about how do we exploit that content a little bit more for everyone's benefit, for the people that it's about, for our sake, um, just to kind of, I guess, just let the world know about what's going on in this little small community that we've built. And that's kind of what it feels like. It feels like a little small army that's getting bigger and bigger by the day, and, and it's our job now to sort of I guess take that to the next level, and that's where we're, that's where we're at. So we're looking at some content plays. We're also looking at like ways to get some passive income for both sides of the, um, of the table. So us as a company, but also our artists, they all have incredible content. A lot of them, whether they're musicians being unsigned or fine artists not having a, a means to get their work out there and exploit it and make money for it. We're looking at maybe some ways that how can we make money for, for everybody. And this was not where our head was at a year ago. Our head was strictly on the sort of the LinkedIn model, and we're starting to think, well, maybe that's still— we still think that's applicable, but how can we get some other passive revenue streams? So it's really exciting. In some ways I feel like right now we're back at the blue sky, yeah, place because we have cash and we've committed— we've committed to not spend it quickly. We've committed to try ideas quickly and, and let those ideas either win or fail quickly, but not just go out and say this is the one idea, we're going to throw $1.5 million at it, and if it fails, we're going to break it up into much more granular little projects. And we're gonna go, let's see if that little project works, and we'll try that one. And one of them will stick invariably, and then we'll hammer that, and that will be the storey next 12 months when I see you guys. You know, we just— we ended up— we turned— we turned into a record label and we have the biggest catalogue in the world. You know, I don't know, but there's a lot of things that could happen between now and this time next year, and it's very exciting for us that we've finally raised that money that we're very close to being able to shut off the crowdfunding and get on with building the company.

Josh: How do you look after yourself personally? You're talking about, you know, your health and all that sort of thing. How do you make sure that's dialled in when you're in the building of a business?

Josh: I'm finding sleep's getting harder and harder, and so I'm probably getting healthier and healthier. I don't smoke anymore. I've definitely cut back on drinking massively. Eating pretty well as well, as well as you can in LA. But yeah, I find sleep so important and I don't get enough. I don't get anywhere near enough of it. And so I try and compensate for that with meditation because—

Tommy: I thought you were going to say naps.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And that. Naps are good.

Josh: It's bad actually, but I do.

Josh: Naps are all good.

Josh: Yeah, do you think?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I never used to be a napper until—

Josh: I think naps are fine.

Josh: I only started napping after I quit cigarettes.

Josh: Strange.

Josh: And that kind of makes sense as well.

Josh: Instead of ciggy breaks, you say a nap break.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Well, there's something you can sort of re-energize from a quick nap. It's like the revive and survive.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know. I don't actually have a good— like, how do you take care of yourself? I think you just have to be conscious of or aware of how you live your life. Because if you're ignorant to it, well, you're just going to keep powering on through. And believe me, I've had phases even in this last 12 months where I did that, where it was— there was so much like I'd have to fly across the country, get back, go overseas for a week. And then every single city in Australia and then get back to LA and then, you know, back on the East Coast again. It was so insane. Um, and I definitely put my head down in that time and probably drank my way through it, frankly, because just so many flights and so many different hotel rooms and it's, it's stressful. Um, but it was incidents like that that actually made me go, okay, I need to stop and work out how I can do that same schedule without drinking, you know, a couple of bottles of Pinot each night.

Josh: So what does that look like? Is that the thing of, I need to wind down? Like, when did you notice?

Josh: I was looking sick. Yeah, like I was putting on weight even though I wasn't really eating much, and my bags under my eyes were bigger, and just things weren't working, and my hip was sore. And I was just— I mean, I'm sort of— I'm smiling about it, but I was feeling pretty, pretty worse. So where this is probably first quarter leading to the second quarter of this year, before we launched the crowdfund, just before. I was just feeling really crap. I, I'm not— not a word of a lie, I watched your thing on New Year's Eve— not on New Year's Eve, I think— where you said you wanted to try being sober for a year.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I was back in Melbourne for like a day or something crazy, and I was at my parents' place. I was feeling pretty sorry for myself, and I was watching a couple of your things, and that was one of them. And I thought he's, yeah, he's not that much older. And like, you explaining why you wanted to do it. Yeah, you were lacking energy and you wanted to— I can't remember exactly.

Tommy: I mean, I can't remember this, but it's good. Yeah, it sounds like what I'd say.

Josh: It resonated on some level. Yeah. And that, that and a few other things. And I just thought, I'm just gonna try. Well, at first I tried to cut everything. That's why, you know, I was saying earlier, I tried vegan, I tried it. And then I realized, no, it's actually just about doing one little thing at a time. So like, I stopped smoking stopped drinking coffee, uh, chilled out on drinking a lot, you know. And I think when you, you introduce those things one by one, then it becomes sustainable.

Josh: So what happens if you go to a hotel room and you're used to having a glass of wine to relax? What's, what's the thing that then replaces it? Or like, how do you catch yourself? And what do you— do you go for a walk?

Josh: Yeah, lots of walking. Yeah, a lot of walking. Um, there's honestly so much work with Vamper at the moment that right now, uh, I probably substitute what would have been drinking time just for emails and pretty mundane stuff. I will say though, about 2 weeks ago I was stuck in the rain in— my plane was forced to land because there was a cyclone. Um, good reason to land. Yeah, it's always fun driving, flying through a cyclone.

Josh: And so were you, were you halfway?

Josh: We were halfway back to LA and I We couldn't— we were allowed to— we had to stop over at Houston anyway, but we weren't allowed to take off again. And so the pilot had to circle until he could find like a break in the cyclone, got down, and then, um, I had to stay the night in Houston. And I was not going to be sober that night, so I ran through the rain and I checked into the hotel, and then I found a bar nearby and I had the funnest night. There was a piano in there, there was all these angry Texans, and we, we just— we played music and laughed and drank and smiled. And then I got on like a 7 AM flight back to LA, and it was just like, blip. It was just a nice little— yeah, nice little colourful moment. But I think the thing is, you know, you can do that once in a while. You just can't do that every night of the week.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And that's, that's where control and, um, discipline comes in. And that's probably what I was lacking for a minute there, and, and that's what I'm trying to relearn.

Tommy: Do you think it's possible to like the grind, you know, having a business and the thought and attention that needs to be given to it, do you think it's possible to do it without the personal investment? You know, like the connectedness to you as an individual. So you're feeling bad when the company's not doing as well as you think it can be. And so the company's success dictates your personal internal success, or feeling. Sorry.

Josh: Yeah, I, I've definitely learned how to— if I'm feeling bad, it won't impact the company negatively. I had to learn how to do that.

Josh: Um, can you do the other way around?

Josh: Yes, I can. If the company has a win, I can— I will use that wave to— and I'll surf that wave to absolutely capitalise on the high. I think that's so important.

Tommy: But what about the low?

Josh: So if the company's doing badly, will it affect my—

Josh: or even— it's not even badly, it's like you say, for the daily— something doesn't go the way you want it to go, if we don't have a show, I feel like I'm not that great afterwards.

Josh: Yeah. Oh, okay. So yeah, that does affect me, um, but it's up to me to deal with that, and it's not up to me to project that back onto the business or back onto my wife or my family.

Tommy: Because is it, is it the truth? Like, it's your truth?

Josh: It's not. And, and I've— there's a few things I've questioned massive. I've actually wondered if I'm any good at anything at various points this year.

Tommy: And where'd you land?

Josh: In the middle of a cyclone. It wasn't pretty. No, I don't know.

Tommy: I—

Josh: and I've— you have to remind yourself. I've actually gone back and watched some old stuff I've done just for validation.

Josh: Like, you need a little pump-up reel.

Josh: Yeah, like an edit.

Tommy: You and Keith just rocking out on stage.

Josh: Kind of like there was— because I retired. This year's been a year of ending things too. So I finished a uni degree. I finished Buchanan, which was my artist project. I finished an old publishing deal. So this year, and this was all by design, but I thought I would feel this huge weight off my shoulders and like the world was my oyster. And I, I actually felt like I'm irrelevant. I was never very good to begin with. I never reached the top, top of my field, although I came higher than 99% of people in every area I've done. But that, that, that right there has answered the question. I had to remind myself that I didn't get maybe in the 0.01%, but I still got in the top 1% of the various areas that I tried to break. Yeah. Um, or still breaking, I shouldn't say tried to break. So, um, it's a different way of talking to yourself. Yeah, I probably sound more, um, reflective this time than maybe our last chat.

Tommy: Well, I think the, the 0.1% stuff is like, we look to the— like, we're talking about Kanye West, he's the unicorn.

Josh: But how can you not when you live— how can you not? Very easily. But you do that when you live out here, and that's what I've had to change.

Tommy: And, um, well, it feels like there's this playing field, it's like, oh, I'm in the same arena.

Josh: Yeah, it becomes very hard that when it—

Josh: like, when you are physically playing in the same arena as people in that 0.01%, and then you're working in the studio of, you know, I've worked with these people, or one step apart from every one of these people. Yeah, there was an entitlement that I learned that I had to unlearn. And that was another— like, I definitely been reading a lot about instant gratification lately, but that I was seeking that, and I was also feeling entitled because I had done work with various people. And it's a really gross way, like I needed to, again, I needed to unlearn a lot of things that I learned. I think the reason that happened is because I work from home, and I think you start to create narratives. And it's not so much that you go insane, it's more that you just, you start to—

Josh: you're a storyteller.

Josh: You believe your shit. You believe your shit. You know, we had a couple of employees and they would work from mine, and for a while we had an office in Santa Monica, and sometimes we still work down there. But generally speaking, people would come to work at my place each day, and so you reinforce this storey of who you are. And the world's biggest. So you start to believe your pitch deck, and, and then, you know, and you start to believe in the crap that you've done before all that. And so I think I just, I had to just learn how to unlearn that.

Josh: Do you think part of it too is because when you're at this stage that you're at, when you're at the funding stage, it is a lot of convincing of people?

Josh: Sales. And people keep going, you know, a CEO of a company is a salesman on every level, whether you're, you're either selling to potential employees that you want them to join, you're selling to investors because you need their cash, or you're selling to the public because you're trying sell your product, or you're selling to your team because you're trying to inspire a new process. So you're always selling.

Tommy: And there's probably selling to yourself to keep the idea, this whole dream, this whole thing. Yeah.

Josh: And I don't like that. So maybe I'm not the perfect CEO in the long term. I'm definitely the right person right now, and I've identified my strengths. And I think, you know, we wouldn't have investors backing me if I wasn't. But a lot— it's not uncommon for startups that will hit the next phase, probably the phase just after where we're at, where they'll bring in a CEO because that, that'll be a CEO who's really passionate about scale. I'm passionate about proving that Vampr can change— Vampr has changed the world, but I'm passionate about sort of really putting a, you know, stamp on, on that concretely and becoming a household name. And then I'm happy to step away and move on to the next project, I think. And I think that's what I do that early stage particularly well. Um, I'm not sure.

Josh: Do you think people can— do you think people can handle honesty and authenticity. So if you're not feeling sure, is it important for you to stay confident? Like, especially within, say, the Los Angeles context, do people appreciate if you say, hey, I'm not sure?

Josh: Do you mean my staff?

Josh: No, I think like, so stakeholders. So that could be staff, it could be investors, it could be—

Tommy: maybe Bumbinto even.

Josh: Yeah, the crowdfunding thing.

Josh: Like, I'm not sure is a powerful response to anything because—

Josh: do you think it's underused though? Do you think that we, we think that people require us to know?

Josh: Well, I think the only person— the people who are going to take poorly to I'm not sure are probably not people you want on your team.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: Um, I'm not sure suggests that I'm not the smartest person in the room. And I'm not sure— it doesn't end at I'm not sure. It's I'm not sure, let's see if we can find someone who is. And so it's the start of— it's confidence. It's saying, "I don't have the answer, so we're going to look elsewhere," right? If an investor goes, "Well, if he's not sure, we've lost confidence," you probably don't want that person on your cap table. You want an investor who, when times get tough, you can call up and say, "I don't know what to do. We're at a real turning point. What would you do, or can I speak to someone else who you've worked with who's been in a similar role, and how can they advise me so I can help make this decision better?" That's the kind of investor you want. I've met both kinds. I think the ones that we've got are phenomenal and patient with me. And they get to know you during the DD process. They've asked me all kinds of pretty personal questions. You know, they really know my character well. They've seen me on good days. They've seen me on shit days.

Josh: That's—

Josh: yeah, I don't know. I think we've done a good job finding people who are okay with I'm not sure. But I definitely deal with people who don't like it. So yeah.

Tommy: Do you think there's a culture of like you need to be stoic in the startup space?

Josh: Yeah, of course you have to be a little bit stoic. You're a leader at the end of the day. If I walked around with my shoulders hunched and I wasn't projecting some sense of a vision, I don't know that I'd have much of a team. And I don't feel that way. And I don't think you could— I don't think you could get a startup to this level or any level if you didn't naturally have some part of you that believed in yourself, right? Like you guys believe in yourself. You've committed to this 10-year vision. You, some, even though you, as you said, there'll be days you go, am I maybe no good? You know, that was a terrible interview. Obviously there's a part of you that knows that's bullshit because you committed to the 10 years.

Josh: Well, yeah, it's not even that. It could be, it could be 100% a shit job, but you're okay with the, you're okay with the one misalignment of a brick if you're building the, the China, what's the, what's the big wall in China? Great Wall of China. Thank you.

Josh: Good metaphor.

Josh: It's the 97.

Josh: I was about to say the name.

Tommy: The new edition since you were last on. Yeah, the brick, the brick wall of China. Yeah, the big wall.

Josh: Um, and so, uh, what has changed in regards to perspec— uh, perception or perspective of Los Angeles? Are you, uh— I feel like people go through ebbs and flows of loving it, hating it. Where are you on the spectrum?

Josh: I, I have learned to appreciate it. I don't, um— I definitely loved it, then hated it, then loved it, then hated it. I think when I last saw you, I said I was learning to love it. I've since hated it. Um, right now I think it has a role in my life. Um, it's a— I wouldn't want to be anywhere else, um, for the business, but not for my wife or my dog or my friends. Like, um, I think we, we know in our mind that we'll be done with Los Angeles at a point in time. Um, right now it's great, um, and, um, and we'll look forward to saying goodbye at some point too. Yeah, um, as I was saying to you actually before, I get to go back to Melbourne on Tuesday and I'm going back for 5 months. We're setting up a new office and hiring some new people and it's just going to feel good. That'll be the longest time since 2013 that I've lived in Australia and I just can't wait to spend time with friends.

Josh: Yeah, what are the small things? Like, what are you gonna get?

Josh: Like, just seeing friends, going to—

Josh: what food places are you gonna go to?

Josh: Yeah, I'm gonna— my old cafes in Elwood that I used to— they're probably all gone.

Josh: What's it Elwood Bakery.

Tommy: There's a bunch of new ones that have popped up.

Josh: The Butcher's Kitchen or something. And then they changed the name.

Tommy: I think there's a bunch of new ones. Yeah. Where are you going to live?

Josh: I'm going to live down in Mornington Peninsula.

Josh: Oh, great.

Josh: But I'm probably towards the end of the 5 months, I'll get an Airbnb for a month or so in Elwood because I like that, that area. It's sort of my old home. But yeah, it's just exciting. The things I'm looking forward to, I'm looking forward to seeing my friends. I'm looking forward to going to my old GP. I haven't been to a GP in like 2 years. It's all about taking care of yourself.

Josh: It's too fucking expensive, right?

Josh: It's too expensive. We've got a healthcare plan, but you've got this thing called deductibles here. So, you've got to spend $6,000 out of pocket at normal retail rates before your plan kicks in.

Josh: What?

Josh: And why are we even paying? And then it's $450— I don't want to get into it. It's just— I can't— Yeah, there's stuff like this that makes America not a great place at all. And they need serious reform. There doesn't need to be Medicare for All, but they need serious reform.

Tommy: We're not going to get into politics, but I mean, we use the healthcare system to get blood tests to test our testosterone and then compare it against each other.

Josh: Yeah, but I used to do that too. I'd get an extra roll and my trainer would say, go and get your cortisol levels done. But here it's like, all right, well, you have to then go and get quotes for different labs who are prepared to, you know— no, I don't even have time to go see the GP.

Josh: Yeah, I could barely go to the hospital.

Josh: I used to— in St. Kilda, I used to I used to be a frequent at the free bulk billing.

Tommy: Oh yeah, super clinic.

Josh: Before we had partners. Yeah, I get it. And I miss that. Not that I want to. No, no, you know what I'm saying.

Tommy: I get that.

Josh: I miss the free healthcare. So hang out with my doctor like he was one of my boys. How's the blood look this week, doc?

Tommy: So the grind of, you've had a few grinds here. You've done the music thing. You've done Vampr, so the tech startup space.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What's the difference between the grind to become a musician and the grind of a tech startup?

Josh: Well, both require hustle and, you know, work. And this— I was talking to an artist manager an hour ago. Both require you to work the phones and network, network, network, unfortunately.

Josh: Do you have AirPods?

Josh: I do, but they're useless.

Josh: Yeah, bad with wind. But there's the pros now. I wonder if they get any better.

Josh: I know, I saw them. I was expecting one of you wankers to walk in with them.

Tommy: Nah, we're all tied up.

Josh: Um, but both require you to work the phone a lot, and both require to be really good at what you do. That's the other thing I think I probably only just appreciated, is that, um, I've sometimes in my life, whether it was music or even Vamper, I've turned down deals that seem small, like for example small record deals, small acquisition offers, and I think in hindsight, I wouldn't maybe have taken the deals. But what they, what they were, were they were signposts of someone going, you're quite good at this, but this is how good I think you are based on the amount that I'm offering. And so what it made me appreciate is that you need to really work on your skill if you want to get a huge exit or you want to get a huge record deal. Get good at your craft. And I think that's what I've only just started to appreciate, is maybe focus more on what I do rather, or like, and actually get really, really, like, really good at that rather than, than just try to sell it, you know what I mean? It's hard to— I've been trying to find a way for a while to articulate this sentiment, but I just, uh, yeah, I don't know, I've tried.

Josh: Well, because it's also—

Josh: it's hard to explain what I'm trying to say.

Josh: No, it's the same mindset of why do we do hard things. There's a bunch of things that would be way easier to do than what you're doing, than what we're doing, but then it's like, why?

Josh: But so, okay, and then take that a step further. Why am I doing a hard thing that, and then not working really hard on some of the art of it. And so the art of being a businessman might be conflict resolution, dealing with third-party contractors, setting a vision, then selling the vision, then cold calling, going to networking events, going to conferences.

Josh: I mean, the list goes on, but so it's having the tenacity to say, yeah, I'm going to fucking do it.

Josh: But then when you actually get to it, it's like, I'm gonna sleep till 9 AM, I'm gonna sleep in, you know. And then, and then you compare yourself against other people and they go, they're getting up at 6 every day. But then also I'm working till 4 because I got people in Australia. So it's like, well, maybe I, you know, I wouldn't be alive if I was going to sleep at 4 anyway. So you gotta constantly— you're, you're constantly judging yourself and comparing yourself to other people in your field. But I keep coming back to the same thing of like just focus on being the best you possibly can, because then it's not just about so much saying to your investors at the end of the day, I gave it my best shot. It's also about saying to yourself, I did my best. And I think that's when you turn to drinking and drugs, is when deep down inside you kind of know that you probably could have given that little bit extra, but it was easier instead to open the Merlot, you know.

Josh: Also, like, the easy things can be really hard. Like, it can be opening up your inbox.

Josh: For me, the It's— I always talk— it's like, um, do you remember when you're 16 and going for your first ever job and how hard it was to hand out that first resume? Yeah, but you procrastinated. It's not even hard to hand it out or even write it. You just procrastinated doing it for some reason for like 6 months. Everyone went through that experience except him. Except he's gonna miss the 97.

Tommy: This is his first job.

Josh: 97 on your Enter School. What do they call it? ATAR now?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What did you get? Do you remember? Do you feel it? You finished?

Josh: I went back and finished because I dropped out and then I went back to school., and I, I didn't— it was fine.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it was fun. I'm fine, we're fine.

Josh: It was some— it was somewhere in the '80s, but I did—

Josh: I hope it's good.

Josh: I did, I did the bare minimum. I did 4 subjects and 2— I did music and media, and both are marked down. Yeah, a lot, because they're creative, which— that's fucking stupid, Victorian or Australian government. Anyway, um, so I still— 80 was all right in light of the fact that I only did 4 and you could do up to 6. And 2 of them were kind of like fun ones.

Josh: When you left, why'd you leave early?

Josh: I made a feature film.

Josh: Oh, great.

Tommy: Oh, this is— this is right. This is the police car.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: The blood.

Josh: I remember we spoke about it.

Tommy: No, I remember this. What was it called?

Josh: The Vapor Boys.

Tommy: That's right. That's right. Was Karim in it?

Josh: Yep.

Tommy: Reece Mitchell.

Josh: Reece was in it. Reece co-produced it with me.

Tommy: Reece Mitchell.

Josh: And so what's the— and so you had this idea. What year was it?

Josh: Well, uh, so 2006, uh, I was in Thailand in 2007 and I fell in love with this girl there and I just inspired me to start writing this story, which is the most unreal. It's about robbing a cigarette van and running away with the money and, and then it gets derailed. But anyway, I don't know what the— but I always just remember, like, I started writing this script in Thailand and I, I illegally downloaded a copy of What do you write scripts on? What's that program? Final Draft. Final Draft. I downloaded that.

Josh: You're not a screenwriter until you start using Final Draft.

Josh: Yeah, so I downloaded Final Draft on my old Windows Vista computer and, um, go to the doctor again. And, uh, I started, I started draught one and then I— there was this very talented kid in our media class who I thought would be like a Tarantino. Like, that's— I just, he just had everything about him, like his short films are incredible. So I convinced him to write a full script with me and we did it in 3 months. And then I called up the school accounts department and just said, just unenroll me.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And literally—

Tommy: What did your mom say?

Josh: She didn't know, did she? I called up, I just called up the accountants and I said, oh, this is Josh's dad, I'm not coming back. He's not coming back. I'm not coming back.

Josh: Oh, I mean, he's not coming back.

Josh: I did it again. And they just, they said, okay. They said, are you sure? Because I knew that if I went through to the accounts department there'd be no mediation. It's just, it's cut and dry decision.

Josh: It's just taking that private school life.

Josh: So, and so then I went to my parents and I said, I've just saved you 20 grand, and can I have it? Can I have it?

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And they said okay. So they said, but as long as you make a plan. So I came up with about a 300-page shooting schedule, um, and that was the— we stuck to that, and we budgeted 20 grand, and we made a film for 20 grand.

Josh: What did you guys shoot it on?

Josh: Um, uh, HDV.

Josh: Yeah, great.

Josh: It was horrible, but it still looks incredible. I mean, I had an eye for cinematography, and Rhys and Josh Dawson did too, and they— all three of us shot it together, and it looks beautiful. If we had had, you know, lenses that had some more depth of field, it would still hold up to this day. And I did all the sound editing because I worked in—

Josh: oh yeah, great—

Josh: music and shit. So, um, and then we—

Tommy: what were you expecting from the actor in it?

Josh: The brand— Craig Stott, Shane Fox Neville, Dylan Colbert.

Tommy: Shane Fox Neville, I remember. That's right.

Josh: And they were all— we cast it up and down the entire coast of Australia. It was a huge production.

Tommy: And so was that $20K money?

Josh: Yeah, but we stretched $20K and did what we worked out it would have been about $1 million if we were paying everyone just normal wages. Like, we did an amazing thing with that. That killed me, that film.

Josh: How long did you work on it for?

Josh: Uh, 18 months, and I was so burnt out at the end I went and mowed lawns for 2 years, and it was the best 2 years of my life.

Josh: Just didn't stop from one way to the other. It was all free.

Tommy: Yeah, I literally mowed from Hampton to—

Josh: yeah, the mower guy.

Josh: Yeah, that, and then that inspired my second movie, Jim the Mower, um, Josh the Mower. Uh, no, so anyway, I, I— that film fucking killed me.

Josh: But I was saying, did you put it—

Josh: yeah, we did festivals or something. This is, this is— I'm not gonna say it, but I— that film annoys me because we put so much— I put so much into getting it produced. And me and Rhys, like, arguably aren't as close today as we would have been because it really tested our friendship. And, you know, all these things came out of it, and I learned a lot as a business person, I will say that. But we kind of— we did all the hard bit, and then there wasn't a plan to get it out. No distribution. So, and then I realised that and there was like $2,000 in the bank and it was less than that. And so we spent on like stamps and envelopes. And then this is talking about like the hard thing to do. I procrastinated for months sending it to festivals. I couldn't be bothered filling in the, it just felt daunting. And then after I gave up on the festival route, I started going directly to like the head of Dendy and the head of Palace and the head of Village and—

Tommy: Can I get through to the accounts team please? Hey, this is Josh.

Josh: No, but funnily enough, I actually did. —for a 17-year-old.

Josh: It's a better business model than MoviePass though, isn't it?

Josh: Yeah, if it had sold. But I did get through to the right people and they gave it the time of day. And, you know, it needed— it has editing problems, it has sound mixing problems, but it got a fair viewing. And Palace ended up sort of doing this little run with me where, you know, it was very much— it had to make and sell enough tickets in order to be a business. And you're doing crowdfunding back then? Yeah, in a way. And so then we did a few screenings and my film's being played at the, you know, the South Yarra Palace Cinemas. That was enough for me. I kind of— I was, as I said, I burnt out. And, you know, it's funny to look back on and laugh. There was no distribution plan. Why did we spend almost 2 years of my life making a film?

Tommy: But I think, like, you—

Josh: but there was enough for me just to see that movie at Palace. I know it was an expense, but then I went back and I did school through distance ed, which cost $197. So I don't think it was money lost for the parents. I got a 4-year degree out of that in business, in film, in sound, in life. And then I went and finished my high school for $190. So for me, seeing it at the cinema on the big screen, that was enough. And I think that was enough for my parents too.

Josh: What were the 2 years though with the MOA? What were you thinking about? Did you feel like you'd failed?

Josh: Mm. And by the way, I've had a bad cough since the fires have started. So that's why I'm overhydrating. How did I feel when I was mowing lawns? I was trying to feel connected to— this is going to sound so hippie, but I was trying to feel connected to the earth again, quite literally. Like, I was— I don't think any— it was as stressful as vampires, but I have the tools to handle it now. But you don't have it when you're 17 and you, you know, you haven't even finished puberty and your brain's certainly nowhere near finished developing. Um, so I was just trying to reconnect with, you know, humility and 'Cause yeah, it's when you're directing and producing a film and you're doing all that stuff, you do have a different sense of probably who you are versus what everyone else sees.

Tommy: You're task-focused and you can't really let external things throw you off what you're focused on.

Josh: Yeah, that's right. It was so laser-focused, you'd almost probably call it manic focus. And I think the key is to not get into manic focus, is to get on that board. It's like that scale of anxiety that shows you when anxiety is useful, and then there's a point where it becomes no longer useful. Yeah.

Josh: Did you feel the weight of your shoulders? Like, I've done short films and you've got crew and cast that are expecting things, like, especially if they're putting in free time. Did you, did you feel the weight on your shoulders?

Josh: I was lying to them the whole time. They thought I was 24, and there was an article that came out in the newspaper the day that the film wrapped production that said The Real Deal, play on the word real, The Real Deal on Only 17. It was the front page of the leader newspaper all around, all around Victoria. And so one of the cast members brought it to set and it started off— and thank God in hindsight it never got legal because they all had agents and stuff— but it started off a bit of a lonely few months for me because people lost a lot of confidence in me. They called me a liar, and I was doing it actually for their own benefit. If no one had found out and I was allowed to create. It was always, you know, everyone had ownership, everyone had equity in the film, everyone was happy with their equity in the film. Does it really fucking matter if I'm 17 or 24? And so what was it?

Tommy: It was legally you couldn't do it?

Josh: Well, you just had told the one thing.

Josh: I wouldn't have gotten the actors I wanted to get. I wouldn't have gotten some of the favours from Victorian Police. You know, they let us use their cars and stuff like that. In hindsight, what we did was pretty cool.

Tommy: Which is the storey that comes from that, right?

Josh: I haven't cast back to this in a long time.

Tommy: I wasn't planning to do this. So we, like, if you think about the, the storey is, if you— what's the alternative, right? It lands and it becomes the big thing, which is what we all want, right? You start a business because you want—

Josh: we sent it into Sundance, so that was always the aim. Because— and we would never have gotten in anyway for the simple reason that we didn't clear the soundtrack, but I didn't know anything about that back in the days. Um, but you know what, if we'd gotten accepted, you would have found financing to clear the to clear it. But anyway, um, I only know that now as, as a seasoned business person. But no, the thing is, we sent into Sundance— that did happen on schedule. Um, that was what our, our editing cut deadline was, September— I still remember the date, September 20, 2008. We had to get it in by that day to Sundance. So that was where me and Rhys were working towards. Um, but when they said no, um, that's when we kind of lost sight of what, what was the purpose of doing this again. Yeah, because we were trying to do that Tarantino-Rodriguez thing of—

Josh: because I think, was it Robert Rodriguez's first film that $20,000 or something.

Josh: Didn't he try and sell—

Josh: like, I remember what, there was a, a book called Rebel Without a Crew. Yes. And he talks about like, uh, in the US you can do all the medical trials and shit and get cash for like that. And he got involved in all that.

Josh: But yeah, it's, um, the, the, the, the flip side would have been getting into a festival, a big one, being that hero storey of the, the boy who could, you know, boy wonder. And that's what I was so desperately wanted to be. And now I don't care about boy wonder or fame, partly because I'm too old to be boy wonder and I've seen what fame does to people. So, you know, your priorities change, I think.

Tommy: Well, then, so there's the work that goes in, which I think most people who find the success have put in some level of work, but then there's also the luck.

Josh: Yeah, it's like, but you, you do create opportunities for luck to present itself. Um, I go back and forth on that. There's times in my life where I feel like you do create your own luck there's times where I feel like, no, actually some people just get straight up lucky. Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle. Um, I don't have the answer on that.

Tommy: So someone who pops on a platform, they've decided at that moment that they would put in the work, and it's timing that has created— okay, there's a bit of luck in that, right?

Josh: Oh yeah, he founded a loop on YouTube that he thought was dope. He wrote a good, admittedly very good, top line, very memorable top line on top of it, and he uploaded it online and then cut it up and he memefied his own stuff. I don't— I've definitely worked harder than that for— and I'm not saying he hasn't worked hard since, I'm just saying like with Buchanan, you know, we would have massive studios and huge crews and, you know, put in long hours and not sleep for weeks on end getting the mix perfect and coming back from family vacations to work on mastering. Lil Nas X just put on SoundCloud and now, you know, he had the biggest record of the year. So that's luck in my mind.

Josh: It's zeitgeist as well, right? It's the— I guess some sparks can catch a little bit more. And I guess that's a good example of— It's taste. Yeah, I think it's taste.

Josh: And that was— I said something earlier, I was going to say the word taste as well. He might just know what the perfect melody is. And it didn't matter whether he spent 10 years on the production or 10 minutes. He just knows— like, he just knows that that's going to connect with the zeitgeist.

Josh: So he He might have some sort of context, which is like every day from the age of 5 listening to certain music.

Josh: Something he did, some way he was conditioned, his environment, his taste, because I don't think you can really teach taste. It's just something you have. And then maybe something from not necessarily God, but something from above comes through you. Well, I think all songwriters say that it comes through you when there's a good song. You're not really responsible for it. Something else is. Something in the collection of all your experiences today and something in the wind and the room temperature and whether you're comfortable with the people around you, all these different fucking things. Oh, sorry, I'm tired, I'm so tired. I got like 2 hours last night. But something does come through you. And so him, again, that line, who knows, that could be the product of seeing his parents fighting an hour earlier and anyone tell me nothing. Like I said, attitude. I didn't have that when I was making my record, you know. We were in Brighton and Elwood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but you know, plenty of privileged people have also broken. Yeah, Billie Eilish, um, not saying she's not great, she's fucking incredible, but she comes from a rich family. Yeah, uh, Lana Del Rey.

Tommy: Anyway, how much do you think though, having things like the film that doesn't go well and, you know, the paper being shown to all these people, how much does it contribute to you? The film didn't do well.

Josh: I saw my movie at Palace Cinemas.

Tommy: How many people have seen— when you grow Melbourne Palace Cinemas, you know, you've made it when you're there.

Josh: Um, but it's something cool about it. No, 100%.

Tommy: But I mean, from sort of the thought that you were—

Josh: yeah, I felt like a failure. I felt like a failure at the end of that.

Tommy: But then using that kind of life experience further down the track—

Josh: you know how earlier I was saying like I've been working on trying to reframe how I view everything, the story?

Josh: Well, I guess that I can imagine the storey of that 2 years mowing lawns Well, okay, honestly, you could go, the film was a—

Josh: so this is where this year I've been trying to work on my mental health. I did forever go, that film was a failure. Buchanan, I think we did fucking incredible things, but we never had a number one album, a failure. This year's like reframing. So in the case of the film, I got to see my film in South Yarra Palace Cinema's biggest screen multiple nights in a row in front of the most distinguished CEOs of the film industry and press in Australia and all my friends, and I made a feature film, and I was 17, and I probably hold the record in the world for the youngest person to make a feature film. That sounds like a win to me. And then it's like with the music stuff, yeah, we never had a number one, but, uh, we did chart in every continent on the planet. We did have multiple, um, uh, you know, songs on the front page of Apple Music worldwide. Same for Spotify. We broke at the worst possible time as well. Our first record was right when CD sales were everything, and our second record was when streaming was everything, and we had to endure that transition. And most acts will tell you that is the least enviable place to be. We basically spent years building a team that could learn how to distribute CDs, which has nothing to do with the business of streaming and the hustle that goes into hustling playlist editors to put your song on playlists and we had to learn two different skills and play catch-up. I mean, that was a time— that was in a case of really bad luck, but we did cool shit and we went on, you know, we played stadiums and we were on TV and, and we took all that shit for granted at the time. So again, I'm looking at that now as I'm getting a bit older and going, that was an unqualified success in every respect. Like, my kids will look back at that, that video I put out in January— I don't know if you saw it— called An Uncommon Experience. No. It was kind of the, the end of Buchanan, and it reflected— it was— I, I spent Christmas and New Year's— not the days, because that would be sad— I spent that, I spent that period editing this sort of final video of Buchanan, and it was really a farewell to fans and also to myself for the project. I'm not dying, but it was, it was— I just wanted to wrap things up, and it was, it's, it's bloody impressive what we did, you know.

Josh: And also, you don't, you don't need one thing.

Josh: I think that's the thing, like I've realised that my journey as an individual, my storey is the product of all these stories. So the— it's not just the film did this and the band did that and Vamp is doing this. It's no, Josh Simons, as my own sort of brand if you will, did the film and then had this gardening period and then was in a band that was quite successful for 10 years. And, and then in that time I lived in London and then I lived in Los Angeles and I'm, you know, got engaged a couple of times maybe and then got married. And then, you know, I'm the product of all of these, as we all are. We're all the product of our own experiences. That's all we have. That's all we have, and that the sum of those parts defines who you are right now. Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: Um, yeah, I don't know. I think it makes a lot of sense. Well, it's fun, uh, hearing, you know, that journey and hear— and even from a year ago and, and how far you've come, uh, from you as you're talking about your mental health stuff, and you seem super happy.

Josh: So yeah, I was hoping I'd come— I hope I don't come across as depressed because I'm actually— I'm in probably a better headspace space now than— I'm in a calmer headspace right now.

Josh: And we haven't had mimosas, so this is a shit.

Josh: You know, there's a liquor store.

Josh: You may have had a mimosa. You're like, do I tell them I've had—

Josh: no, no, no, no, I haven't had anything. But there was— there's a— there's a liquor store next door to this studio, and I— when we pulled— when, when my Uber pulled up earlier in the day, I was like, before you guys got— because you guys were late. Yeah, sorry. Have you even told the listeners? You guys are already doing the Yeah, bad timing. Yeah, but there was— I was wondering, I was thinking, do I do— no, no, no, no, not today, not today.

Tommy: There's a keyboard, it could have been Houston all over again.

Josh: Oh man, yeah, we could be singing songs.

Tommy: Did you Uber here? I did.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, we're heading in completely different directions.

Tommy: Everyone just Uber here? I mean, other than the millions of people driving?

Josh: Yeah, well, it's fun. Today I used my car to get to the hairdresser's. I'm not gonna— I didn't like the job he did, so I'm wearing my hat.

Tommy: Oh really? Yeah, it's really bad.

Josh: Like, this is critical, I'm gonna have to shave it it off tomorrow. I think it's bad. Did you go—

Josh: where'd you go? Supercuts? I went to—

Josh: no, I went to my normal— I went to my normal guy, but I didn't get my guy. I went to the normal place. I got the other guy. That's not— and he spent 45 minutes on one guy, and I was getting pretty impatient, and I was— I shouldn't have been, but I was sitting there kind of going— and then I got up and I go, right, I just want a 15-minute job, just side back. I know what— and he's done me before, um, not like that.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, but he's really done you.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And then I think he kind of did it. Yeah, I think I think he did it on purpose because I was kind of a dick when I got up. I was like, just 15-minute job, let's get this done. And then he's given me this mo— I should say it. No, no, because this is the internet. Come on. It's really bad. I can't, I actually can't. I'm mortified. It's that bad. I'm going to shave it off tomorrow. I'm not even kidding. It's that bad. That's so funny. Josh Simmonds.

Josh: Thank you guys for being on The Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email.

Josh: Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys. See you guys.

Tommy: Bye.