Matt D'Avella's Rules For Filmmaking & Massages

Matt: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's a Daily Talk Show episode 509.

Josh: And we're in Los Angeles and we got our buddy Matt D'Avella back on the show.

Matt: So happy to be back here.

Tommy: Why do some people say Los Angeles?

Matt: Um, if you're Australian, you might say Los Angeles.

Tommy: Is that an Australian thing?

Matt: Los Angeles.

Josh: What did I say?

Matt: I think it's a Los.

Tommy: You said Los Angeles.

Matt: Yeah, that's an Australian thing.

Josh: Okay, so it's Los Angeles.

Matt: Los, yeah.

Josh: Los Angeles. Well, thanks for having us.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, well, thanks for being here. I think you're having me. Well, in a way.

Josh: I mean, there's a lot of people from your page now on our live feed.

Matt: We're climbing.

Josh: Yeah, and, um, welcome Brad, your social media manager.

Matt: Yeah, Brad. I've got a whole network of people who help me build my whole brand, and everybody's name is Brad.

Josh: Um, I've stuffed up twice today. I watched you get a large coffee, and so I got a large coffee.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: And the only problem was you didn't drink it all. I smashed it within 5 minutes.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: And then I was buzzing and then you offered to make a coffee and I've now had a strong one.

Matt: You go through the coffee quick. I like to pace it out. Yeah, I mean, I think maybe I actually just drink coffee slower.

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: And I don't mind if it gets cold. So, I'll kind of sip on coffee from literally the morning until like 2:00 PM.

Josh: The one coffee.

Matt: The one coffee.

Tommy: So, it's cold.

Matt: It's fine though, but like, yeah, cold brew is a thing. What about just room temp?

Tommy: It feels like there's something different between those two things.

Matt: You think room temp, or like the transition, it's because it has made a change.

Tommy: Yeah, well, yeah, there's something gross about that. I mean, are you a cold pizza eating guy? Yes. Do you eat cold pizza?

Matt: Love cold pizza.

Tommy: OK, more than hot pizza?

Matt: I will tell you, though, if pizza goes from hot to room temperature, not as enjoyable.

Tommy: Yeah, no, that's true. Do you do Uber Eats or Postmates or any of those sort of things?

Matt: Not really. We used to do it a lot more in New York. Used to do it a lot more when we lived in West Hollywood, but lately not as much. We do like the boxes. We'll get like a box of food and then we like cook it ourselves at home.

Josh: I don't feel like— I hope I'm not revealing any secrets, but I was surprised today you ate a burger with us, ate a donut. You're breaking your diet for us? Is that what you're doing?

Matt: You're ruining my brand, Kimmich. That's what you're doing right now. I made you sign an NDA for a reason. No, I mean, I'm pretty lax with my diet, especially when I'm hanging out with friends and we go out to eat. Is that just us? Just you guys, yeah.

Josh: Just really let loose.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm like, these guys clearly don't care about their health. No, but I usually, like if I'm going out to eat for lunch or dinner, I don't eat out a lot. Most of the time, I would say 80% of my diet, it's pretty consistent. I eat from home 80% of the time, so it's pretty healthy. But then if I'm going out to eat, like 2 to 3 times a week, I will let myself go completely.

Josh: So yeah, last time we had you, I think it was officially on the show, what, hundreds and hundreds of episodes ago.

Tommy: Yeah, it's been a while.

Josh: And what I like to always see, the pillar of where we've got you at your subscriber count, because when we first met you it was a couple hundred thousand. We had you back on first.

Tommy: Met you, you had fucking no one.

Matt: That's true.

Tommy: And then you had— that was 50,000.

Matt: I met you a month before I started my YouTube channel.

Josh: You didn't even have one.

Matt: Yeah, I didn't have one. I think I actually made a video while I was in Sydney that I actually uploaded. You could see. It's probably one of the 3rd or 4th videos on my channel. And I probably recorded that around the time that I met you.

Tommy: Have you made any private? Any of your videos that you had made that are too cringe?

Matt: I haven't made any videos private. Like, I've thought about going back and deleting some that are just not helpful at all, 'cause for my channel there's a lot of excerpts. But I would just say if it was cringey— I find them mostly to be cringey early on. I find stuff to be cringey even looking back 2 years ago, or even a year ago. Uh, but I generally like—

Josh: You're not talking about our episode that we did on—

Matt: No, no, no, of course not. No, no, no.

Josh: Can you back that up?

Tommy: What makes you cringe? Well, like the previous stuff? Are there certain things that you like—

Matt: I think in the beginning I thought that I could just like riff and just freestyle and just be like, "I got this. Like, you know, I'm super— I'm wicked smart." And then I turn the camera on, not even having an idea of the topic I was gonna talk about. That's just a plan for failure for me, at least. There's some people that can do that and they're really good at it.

Tommy: You're basically describing our show.

Matt: Yeah. But different— Riffing is different than one person talking to the camera.

Josh: So, the biggest change, other than the millions of subscribers, you write every video.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: So, do you riff at all? Are any of the stuff we're watching you ad-libbing?

Matt: Yeah, I riff quite a bit, but I would say there is a solid structure, and I— basically, how I— I write in my own voice, so everything that I'm writing, I'm kind of imagining as I would say. And then I'll kind of split it up between, I think this will probably be B-roll, this is something I might say on camera, but then I leave room there to improvise in the moment and be like, okay, I wanna talk about this. Like, that's how you get a cohesive storey structure that I didn't have before, and I think that probably led most to my success, is just being really thoughtful and kind of thinking visually, how do I wanna put this thing together?

Josh: You told us today, and we were talking about, we were making a video and you were talking about a compliment you got you got about your style? Tell us, tell us what you remember about the slow—

Matt: the— Yeah, Jesse Driftwood, uh, he's a great YouTuber, and I just watched— I was watching one of his videos and then he happened to mention me, which was super weird, and like, it just caught me off guard.

Tommy: Where were you when you were watching it? You just—

Matt: On the toilet.

Tommy: Really?

Matt: No, I wasn't.

Tommy: I could imagine that happening.

Matt: No, I was actually just right here in my office.

Tommy: So nothing just happened to me?

Matt: No, it wasn't, but it is like, just like, it is kind of like Is somebody watching me right now? Like, it was a super weird experience to kind of see that. And, but he basically was talking about how a lot of my shots are just steady, like it's just on a tripod, completely still, no movement at all. And he said that he just really liked that about my style. And the truth is like, one, I do, I tend to like that. I like still shots. But a major reason why that came to be was because I shoot and film all my videos by myself. I actually don't have a team that does all this stuff and makes all my videos. So I needed to, you know, like I can't obviously move the camera while I'm in the shot and in the frame. And I think a lot of times people might see my style of video and think that like it was intentionally done. A lot of times it's done because of the constraints that I had.

Josh: We were driving through the streets on the way here and I just had this vision of you 'cause there's some walking shots, which I'm sure you've done by yourself. And I just had this vision of you setting up camera and then walking back and forth and back and forth.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: It's like the, it looks amazing, but I just always understand the realities of it. But in terms of the style, so someone's identity, Jesse's gone, "Ah, I love that style." A lot in the early days of anyone's filmmaking career, you're encouraged to find your style. What do you think that means now that someone has identified you having a style? What's your sort of take on style?

Matt: Yeah, and like, it's interesting 'cause like, I think that I didn't really think about creating a style originally. I didn't know that I was developing something that was uniquely mine. I kind of like, so there are a lot of different ways in which my style was created. Like one, like the static steady shots is just because I didn't have anybody to move the camera. Also like the addition of a lot of voiceover is because I'm not amazing on camera. Like, people might think I'm good on camera, but that's just because they're seeing the best cuts.

Tommy: So, do you take a script, try and do as much as you can as a talking head, and then clean it up with VO?

Matt: No, it's generally kind of planned, pre-planned ahead of time, and I know what the audio is going to be. It depends what kind of video it is. If it's a 30-day challenge, it's oftentimes me going throughout that 30 days filming different moments and different challenges that I have throughout it. I always have a camera close by so I can pick it up and be like, you know, I just had a really tough time with this intermittent fasting. It was, you know, I just had a really shitty day and blah, blah, blah. I can go on from that. But then, you know, otherwise, and I'll kind of take a couple days in that month to shoot a tonne of B-roll, like really cinematic, beautiful stuff, and then write a lot about my experience, what I'm going through, how it's going, and then I'll start to figure out and put together that storey of like, Oftentimes if it's a topic like intermittent fasting, I want to delve into the science and the history of intermittent fasting, what it is, why people find it interesting, find certain clips to help complement that, and the storey kind of starts to evolve from there. It evolves from the research, it evolves from my own experience, and then— but I would say like hands down one of the biggest skills that I've learned that has helped me the most is definitely writing and planning. And I think that's one thing that people just underestimate, they don't put time into. I didn't put time into originally, but then when I started to realise like I just want to make the best video possible, and a lot of times it takes planning.

Josh: Did you think you were a good writer? Did you have any preconceived ideas of what your skill level was?

Matt: I think I've always been pretty decent. I once had a creative writing teacher in college, like, this was kind of creepy, but like, I submitted what I thought was a really good piece of writing, and then he wrote on the top, he said, "Matt, this was fabulous. Meet me after class for a special project." Special project was in quotes, and this guy was kind of like an older man, like, I don't know, I don't know, I got interesting vibes from him. So I did not— It's a special project. I got skittish. Yeah, I was seeing somebody at the time, so.

Tommy: On the writing thing, are you spending, like, are you taking your morning pages or something and using that, or is it, this is specifically writing for a video and—

Matt: I write for a video. I sit down and write for a specific video. And I think that comes from like, doing one 10-minute video every week. And I think my particular style, and this could be from like how I enjoy consuming content, but I generally— there's a lot of movement, a lot of different shots. There's a lot of— like, very rarely will I be on camera for more than 30 seconds, and that requires like lots of B-roll to be shot, like really thoughtful, planned out. Like, it doesn't happen by accident.

Tommy: Um, so what's the rule if, if you were to create a list of rules the Matt D'Avella filmmaking rules, what would they be? Specifically on your style.

Matt: Okay, specifically on my style. I think rule number 1, don't be lazy. And I think that's something that most filmmakers can relate to.

Josh: What's something to be lazy? How would that translate?

Matt: Like if you, ah, I got enough shots. I got, you know what I mean? Like where you might just grab a couple shots, 2 to 3 clips or 4 clips of B-roll. But if you're not being lazy, you're taking your time to set up like 20 shots, 30 shots, and be really thoughtful with each of them, make sure the exposure is right. You could do it quick, you can do it hastily, or you can take your time with it.

Tommy: Is it harder with guests? Like, I guess if you're using other talent, the idea of being like, hey, can you walk that same street again?

Matt: People are fine with it. That's one thing I think that a lot of people don't realise about filmmaking in general is that you do have like, especially when you're shooting a documentary, like when I shot Minimalism, I wasn't just running, I wouldn't like run really fast, set up the camera, hope that the framing was right, and then like have them just happen to walk by the frame in a perfect way. Like you just be like, alright guys, just wait right there, hold on, I set up the camera, rolling, okay, go ahead, walk. Like they were actually walking and going somewhere, but I told them to stop and wait. And I think that's partly the nature of being an independent filmmaker, being somebody by yourself, like you have to kind of, If you want the good shots and you want it to look really good, then I don't think that there's anything unrealistic.

Tommy: So don't be lazy.

Josh: Don't be lazy.

Matt: Don't be lazy. Plan ahead. Plan ahead.

Tommy: So we're basically taking your course. We're going to wrap this up.

Josh: Yeah, that's just to be welcome to the Matt D'Avanzo masterclass. Yeah. So say that one again.

Tommy: So don't be lazy.

Matt: Plan ahead.

Tommy: Plan ahead.

Matt: So like, so we did, we're doing a video for my channel and we did an interview today. And what I did was I didn't totally know where the video was gonna go, but I had an idea. So I just started writing and kind of fleshing out an idea of where this thing could go.

Josh: And then it's on the cutting room floor.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So no guarantees, guys.

Tommy: You had a Bic lighter and halfway through—

Matt: I just, yeah, I threw my computer in the garbage. Uh, but then like I planned out 10, 15 questions for the interview we'd have. I also thought of like some kind of clever ways to— and I can only do this when like it's people that I know and I'm friends with. It's much harder to bring strangers in. Like, you can do it, but to have them do bits and sketches— like, you guys know that we just filmed a couple little bits that are supposed to be punches of humour where it kind of breaks the third wall. You guys did great. You did really good. Yeah, I know you don't do a lot of acting, but it's pretty impressive.

Josh: Make us look good.

Tommy: Yeah, that was your—

Matt: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like, yeah, the whole idea was like I'm talking shit on them from the voiceover and then they're on camera and they hear me talk shit on them.

Tommy: I love when Nat gets— 'cause you get Nat doing a few of those things, and they're always great.

Matt: Yes, Nat is like— That's what's fun about having her around. That's the only thing that's fun about having her around.

Tommy: An actor on call. Yeah.

Matt: Well, it's like, if my videos were always just by myself, it'd be a little bit boring. But it's like, legitimately all she does is sketches, usually. A lot of times it happens in the moment.

Josh: She's an Aussie that moved to LA not to become an actor, but then acts in videos with lots of people.

Matt: Her friends make fun of her too. They're like, oh man, like you must love this. 'Cause they think that she's like all about centre of attention and she hates it. Dude, I'm telling you, like I gotta plan 3 weeks ahead of time. It's a nightmare getting Natalie.

Josh: She wants scripts 2 weeks out.

Tommy: So planning ahead. What's another one?

Matt: So yeah, don't be lazy, planning ahead, overshoot. I think that goes along with don't be lazy, but definitely, and it's like not what you would think a minimalist would say, but I always, and this might be a better one, think like an editor. So if you've never done all aspects of it, if you haven't done the filming and the editing and like maybe even the writing and the planning, you don't know, it's easy to get very frustrated and it's easy to not get everything you absolutely need. So doing everything myself all these years, the only person I could get mad at when I was editing was myself. I'm like, I did not hold that shot. I was zooming in and out and moving and I didn't have a damn moment to pause. And that's like, I think the biggest mistake that filmmakers make early on is just not holding their shots, not thinking through their shots enough, not getting enough variety because especially if you're making a 10-minute video, you need tonnes of variety to make a video and a film interesting.

Tommy: How do you add variety?

Matt: Just different angles. I more so think of variety now in my videos from video to video and how it fits together.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, they're actually different t-shirts.

Matt: Wardrobe changes. Yeah, definitely, they are very different. But yeah, like, you know, I do think through like how my videos are paced. Does this video start out on camera? Does the next video start out with nothing but b-roll? Is the music similar? Does it fit the tone? And I try to make some variety even between videos, but I think just getting a tonne of different unique angles. Creativity, I think, is is looking at the same problem in a different way, trying to, like you could look at some of the best videos or the biggest videos I've done, I should say, like A Day in the Life of a Minimalist or even any idea talking about minimalism. These are ideas that have been done ad nauseam. Everybody's talked about it, but I'm like, can I do it in a slightly different way? And A Day in the Life of a Minimalist started out with like a parody. So it was me making fun of like the stereotypical minimalist that doesn't have anything in his apartment at all and it's like super pretentious. That was a way for me to kind of flip the script and be creative with it versus just telling the storey straight in a straightforward way.

Tommy: I loved Ryan Nicodemus did one, and I didn't realize— it took me longer to realise that it was a joke.

Matt: He never broke character the whole time. He's a good actor. Yeah, I was like, you're gonna have a lot of people that are gonna be like, what the fuck?

Josh: What about time constraints?

Matt: Time constraints are great. Yeah, I think that constraints and even like setting imposing deadlines on yourself, especially if you're an independent filmmaker, is super super important. Yeah, I think that for me, the constraint of every week, it definitely makes me bust my ass to keep going and keep releasing and not to kind of get too sentimental with each project.

Josh: Have you worked out how many hours it takes to make a great video? Is there— have you worked out sort of a sweet spot? If I spend 15 hours—

Matt: I just started kind of tracking my hours in my day and seeing how long it takes me to make each video. There's definitely not a sweet spot because some videos I can shoot and edit pretty quick, like within a couple days, and some might take like a full week to edit.

Josh: Does time equate to quality? So if you are spending a lot more time on it?

Matt: What's interesting about that is, uh, to a certain degree I think yes. I think that there needs to be, like, if you're only spending 2 hours on your video, there's only so good that it could possibly be, especially if it's 10 minutes. I mean, like, maybe you could make an interesting 30-second video in 2 hours, but still I think it takes quite a bit of time. Then I think you have the diminishing returns after maybe 40 hours, uh, depending on how long the video is in terms of like film. Like I might spend 16 hours or like 12 to 16 hours shooting a video and then 2 days editing, like 1 day doing the main bulk edit, the 2nd day touching up and then polishing and finishing it all up.

Tommy: It feels like you don't rush. Like what I liked about the experience today was we got a bunch done, but it seemed like you were taking your time and setting things up properly. Is that a filter that you're constantly sort of using?

Matt: How so? Like the—

Tommy: well, I just think like the, the, um, the setting up the gear, there isn't the sort of frantic nature that I— that could come for doing that type of shoot, running back and forth. Is that something that's being learned or something that's even deliberate?

Matt: Yeah, I think having been a filmmaker for you know, 10 to 12 years, it's like you're just so confident in your abilities to deliver that I don't get too stressed or nervous. I mean, like, say today, right, you guys helped me set up, but like still we have to—

Josh: That was bullshit, by the way.

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So much.

Matt: I love it.

Tommy: Well, we were talking about how hard it would be like back in the day when you were doing that on your own.

Matt: Right.

Tommy: Fucking intense.

Matt: And like I still do it sometimes by myself, right, where you're setting up 3 cameras, you have to set up main audio, backup audio, you have to set up the light, you have to then monitor the audio, monitor 3 cameras, and conduct the interview all at the same time.

Tommy: When's it like, say you had Ryan Holiday here, are you having help at that point?

Matt: That shoot I did, my friend Conrad came and helped out for that shoot, which is great. I mean, he, it kind of takes a bit of a weight off your mind, 'cause then you don't have to worry about, like, is that audio coming through? 'Cause obviously if you're not doing a podcast, you don't have headphones on, you can't tell. And, but like for many, many of the videos in the past, it's been just me setting it up. It takes a lot more tweaking, takes like a lot of patience. I think, add that to the list, like patience is so important 'cause I mean, I love filmmaking and I love being a part of the process. I love like going on vacation and like shooting travel videos for fun. Like Natalie, no patience for it. And also like if I'm like going out with her, then I feel bad and I'm like, well, she just wants to go on a hike and I'm stopping every 5 minutes to shoot video. And I'm like, you have to have that patience to be able to get an amazing shot and to like, you know, know that it's gonna— I mean, I could be out shooting all day. I think loving it is super important too.

Josh: Is there anything from— I think I asked you this last time at 500,000 subs. Now you're at 2 million something. Uh, how many? 2 point—

Matt: I think it's actually, yeah, I just checked, it's 2,060,000.

Josh: Yeah, that's bloody amazing. Is there anything that you—

Tommy: I thought that was the question.

Josh: No, no, no, it was a side question.

Matt: Also, we had agreed that you guys would mention that right when we started the podcast.

Tommy: I'm sorry, sorry.

Matt: I'm a little bit upset about that.

Josh: No, he made me hang up the new 2 million plaque on the wall. It was hard work.

Tommy: He's actually got a whiteboard marker and he just updates it with the—

Matt: Yeah, yeah, he's pretty obsessed.

Josh: Alexa, how many subs have I got? What's— has anything changed from 500 to 2 million?

Matt: Yeah, 1 million is when you finally find happiness. Yeah, yeah, no, like I said then, and, uh, as I've always said, and maybe this is a product of me having gone through this being a little bit older, but I think like there are a lot of people that would be mature about it when they were younger, uh, there's no feeling of having that. There's maybe a feeling, uh, like when you look at somebody who has a big following, you almost like you project this sense of feeling. You're like, this probably how they feel. Somebody who has a million dollars, somebody who has a really nice house or car.

Tommy: It's just sure they don't have to worry about anything.

Matt: Yeah, you make a whole lot of assumptions about that person. And that's absolutely not true. Like, it's literally just a number on a screen. It does, like, obviously there's more to it, there's more to the story. Like, having a large audience allows me to make videos and it allows me to do some really cool things, but it's, it's not that important. The number is not important to me at all. Like, for me personally, I just want to be able to make films and do that full-time. And whether it's 50,000 or 100,000, like, I can tell you I would certainly be content if I had 50,000 subscribers right now.

Josh: Is there an illusion in terms of making money? Like, I could imagine a bunch of creators are thinking, I can't do X film until I start making money. Doing the thing I'm doing?

Matt: Well, I have this rule called the 3-year rule. Well, like, we were talking about this today, and this is kind of largely what our video is gonna be about, is looking at the long term and not getting so caught up in the short-term feedback. So like, don't get caught up with like, oh, I mean, first of all, like, you have to pay your bills, you have to like have a way to make money. I think if you were gonna jump into doing YouTube, you should at the very least have some runway to play with, or else you're probably probably gonna fail. I like to take risks, but I want the risks to be super calculated. So yeah, like, for me, I wasn't personally worried about making money right away because I had some runway. I knew I had time to explore, and I knew it would take a really long time. So I was like, I'm gonna dedicate myself to this thing for 2 years, and then if it doesn't work by then, I'm not gonna quit, but I will at that moment step back and say, hey, is this really working? Talk with Natalie, see if like she's okay with me doing it for longer and seeing if there's even a glimmer of hope, right? Like if you do something for 2 to 3 years, you should see some progress.

Josh: It's a solid crack.

Matt: If you haven't seen some progress, if you haven't seen like your skills improve significantly, some opportunities come your way, maybe like a few subscribers, whatever it is, then maybe it's— you're in the wrong field.

Josh: Some metric has to change.

Tommy: Yeah, did it feel fast or slow, the progress?

Matt: Stress that you've experienced when it wasn't growing for the first— you know, I forget, I really got to double-check how long it was, but I feel like it was a year. So it's that— yeah, there's an actual chart that shows my project.

Tommy: So you were— so when I first met you, you were still in Brooklyn, I think, at the, the time. You must have— you were— you even started the podcast there. You had a setup, right?

Matt: Uh, yeah, yeah, I had a podcast set up there. I think the first 20 episodes were done in Brooklyn.

Tommy: And when you started that, were you planning to go to Los Angeles?

Matt: Um, no. No. That happened, and then we had maybe a month where— I mean, we made the decision very flippantly.

Tommy: Do you remember that specific time?

Matt: Yeah, 'cause Nat said, uh—

Josh: She said—

Matt: I was like, "Should we move to New Jersey? Maybe we should just settle down and find a nice house in Jersey." And she said, "I didn't move halfway around the world to live in New Jersey." Classy, Josie.

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: I hope my mom doesn't watch this. So she didn't wanna live in New Jersey, which is fine. And, um— Obviously it gets super cold in the winters. And then we just started talking about LA. My sister lives in LA. I've got other friends.

Tommy: So, you were seeking change at the time. Why was that? Why did you want to leave New York?

Matt: Um, it was more so like for our future. We were talking about— we were— we got what we wanted out of New York and we were ready to move. We were both there. I mean, I was there for about 5+ years. She was there for like maybe 2 or 3 years. And we just We're looking to settle down and find a new place to call home and to potentially settle down with for the long term. And LA is in between Sydney and New York.

Tommy: So does New York, does it force you to only think short term? Like, are there people in New York who are creators that are thinking 10 years ahead, or is that harder to do?

Matt: 10 years ahead is tough. I think you guys are unique in the thinking that long term because so much can change along that time.

Josh: Is that a compliment or no?

Tommy: No, just stupidity.

Matt: Stupidity, yeah.

Tommy: And so did you find moving from New York to Los Angeles, what was the mind shift that happened when you moved?

Matt: I would say not a whole lot. I mean, it was nice being in LA. I mean, we certainly like the change of weather, but I think in terms of my mindset and what I was doing as a creator, nothing really changed all that much. I was still kind of dedicated to kind of executing on my long-term vision.

Josh: If we look at your graph of your subscribers, it is not real, but if you could imagine it going up, what's your mental health graph look like in reflection of, or maybe in response to the growth of your channel?

Matt: Yeah, I would say, well, even like one thing that we had gotten started on talking about was that like, even leading up to the moment where I like, I finally started to grow. And like, finally it was like probably a year and 3 months, which was like amazing. But during that time, just so much doubt. Like, you have a year and a half, a year and a half, or a year and 3 months where just nobody is paying attention to what you're making. And I like remember talking to my sister, and it may sound kind of like, like ego-driven, but it's, it's not. It's like I was confident. I was like, I'm making like, I'm really good stuff, and I'm like pretty sure this This is like valuable content and it's like very high quality, especially like the podcast stuff.

Tommy: I was like— Did you sound more angry when you were saying that?

Matt: Yeah, yeah. At that point I was actually throwing dishes across the room. And, uh, but I was like, I feel like I'm making really, really great stuff and it's just so frustrating that like nothing is working and I've been doing this for like a year and 3 months and I'm not seeing any kind of growth. 2 weeks later is like when I had my first video just like take off.

Tommy: What did your sister say when you were— You know, talking about—

Matt: She laughed and she's like, she's like, oh, all right. Like she was like kind of as if, I mean, she, she understood where I was coming from, but she made a joke about me like having a huge ego, for sure.

Tommy: I think it like, it is interesting because even when you're close to getting to what you want, it feels like that's the moment where stuff gets even the hardest. It even feels like the week before our 500th episode It's those like walks home where you're like, what the fuck are we doing? Right? Which is, it seems like the craziest thing. It feels like it's the moment of celebration, but it feels like the milestones can also force this reflection, which could go either way.

Matt: Kind of like too, like you hear about people who get lost in the woods and then they end up giving up when they're like right at the edge of the forest where there's like a city right next door.

Tommy: I'm not excited to do that.

Matt: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: Someone like Die, they eat a mushroom.

Matt: It's like you gave up 'cause you didn't know that if you just went an extra 50 yards or what, 10 meters? It was an in and out. Yeah, it was an in and out right there.

Josh: So does it feel like you've got too far in? Is there a point of getting too far in where you can't get out or you just, you may as well keep going?

Matt: I think you might as well keep, you know, this is the whole idea of like the dip, right? Where you have to know, there's no guarantee and there's no guarantee that anybody would make it. And I think like if I personally, Like, I could only go for so long not making money making YouTube videos before Natalie's like, hey, you know, we got— we gotta get—

Tommy: how long was that?

Matt: Uh, I don't know. She told me, she like confided in me that— because I always talk about, I'm like, she's the one that convinced me early on. She's like, you got— like, just do it. I was like, I'm really nervous. I should start a podcast. I want to, but I was just nervous about what people would say. It's like, you just gotta do it. Just get started.

Josh: What do you think?

Matt: And And then, I mean, what people were gonna say, yeah, you just, I don't know, you just have a whole lot of doubt. I think you're mostly thinking of like your close friend circles and make, ah, you see Matt's trying to make a fucking podcast, what a loser, right? And like, because you think you're faking it, right? You like, because I think in the beginning you are, you've never done a podcast, you've never made a YouTube video, so I bought a bunch of new mics and then, uh, I tried to fake it, bro. Yeah, but then that, yeah, Nat was like she said that, she's like, "Cool, Mark Rose." She's like, "Go ahead, just do it, right? Just get started." And then I didn't know, but she would go into work every day and be like, "I have no idea what he's doing. Like, what's a podcast? I don't understand. Like, how is he possibly gonna make a living doing this?" But to her credit, she lied to my face throughout that whole process and just like said, you know, like she did believe in me. Like, she knew that— I mean, I made it documentary, there was other stuff that I did that worked out that she kind of knew like it may not work out, but I know that he has to do this and he'll regret it if he doesn't.

Tommy: And so, you moved here recently, only a few months ago. The week that you're moving in, you're struggling to breathe, you're having all these fucking weird issues, you think that you've got allergies in the house. What was that time like?

Matt: Yeah, that was a fun time. It was a lot of anxiety.

Tommy: It was the fucking charcoal paint. It was the charcoal paint.

Matt: Yeah, exactly. I shouldn't have painted it.— that mean just— it's something I've never experienced before. Certainly what I ended up finding out was a lot of anxiety. I was diagnosed by a doctor, 'cause she was suspicious when I came in, and I was like, "I think I have anxiety, like generalised anxiety disorder." Thought you wanted meds or something?

Tommy: What's the ones that everyone goes on?

Josh: Xanax?

Matt: Xanax, something, yeah.

Tommy: It's the one that really gets you real fucking focused. Ritalin.

Matt: Ritalin. Adderall. Yeah, that's the opposite. That's for people who don't have focus now, who are so anxious just—

Tommy: but like, imagine how many videos you could do that.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, I've, I've taken Adderall before, uh, and it's— yeah, it's crazy. And it's like, but you get so dependent so quick, it's just not, it's not worth it.

Tommy: So you went to the doctor, what were they sceptical of?

Matt: Uh, she is just, I think, a very inquisitive— and like, she just asks a lot of questions, especially when a patient comes in and says, I think I know what's wrong with me, right? Like, she just wants to make—

Josh: doctor right here.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she wants to just make sure, and then she's just kind of checking me out and doing the whole test and everything going through. She's like, "I think you have a sinus infection. It could be coming from that." And then she's like checking my ankles and she's like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You definitely have anxiety." Really?

Josh: My ankles?

Matt: My ankles were sweating. And like, she just noticed that.

Josh: I mean, I got long socks on.

Matt: Right, so I was in a room and like I was feeling anxiety in that room. Like it doesn't happen all the time, but in that moment I just felt like, also she had an assistant there. And the truth is that I was like, Am I gonna have to like pull my pants down in front of this lady, right? 'Cause like when you go to the doctors, a lot of times they like have to—

Tommy: Yeah, sorry, I've got anxiety, let's see your dick.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, let's see your dick.

Josh: What doctor are you going to?

Tommy: Same place you're getting these massages.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. That's a long story.

Tommy: We're gonna get to that.

Josh: No, we like to just leave it out. No context.

Tommy: So she says, yeah, definitely got anxiety. Then what's the next step?

Matt: Well, she said, you definitely have anxiety. She said, like, if you want, like, I can prescribe you some, some medication for it. But like, I truly didn't think it was that bad. It had— it was pretty bad at one point, but this was a couple months after I had been, or maybe a month or so after I had had it.

Tommy: And attacks, or what sort of thing?

Matt: Not panic, um, I wouldn't say panic attacks, maybe anxiety attacks. Like, maybe like definitely like very intense, um, overwhelm. Like, I legit have to just lie down on the ground and just shopping for food.

Tommy: I mean, moving house is fucking stressful as it is.

Josh: Is it connected to a thing that's going on, some change?

Matt: I think so, because we had 3 weeks of travel. I think too is that, uh, as well as that, like, I was very focused on work at the time, and then just completely removed me from my work for 3 weeks. For a lot of people that might seem like a great thing, but especially when you're completely absorbed into your work, it can be tough to take breaks for that long. And then the longer you're away, the more anxious you get of being like, oh my God, I gotta come back to this. And then like you don't really feel as motivated anymore. You gotta restart everything. But then right when we came back, 2 days after we got back, we had to move apartments, and then I had to get the studio set up, and I'm anxious about getting all the furniture and get everything set up in this place, and then I think it was, and also like, did we make a mistake in moving into this apartment? Is this, like, the apartment had just been refurbished, so I thought that, and you could smell some kind of chemical in the apartment, and I was like, am I allergic to the apartment? 'Cause right when I walked in, I felt dizzy, I felt like I was losing my footing, like very real physical symptoms, and symptoms in a way that you're like, "Like, this is not anxiety." And we've had mates who have had that, who haven't been able to fucking live at their new apartment because of that sort of shit. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm like, "Is this a real thing? Is this something that's all in my head?" And then when it kinda went away the next day, and back and forth, it was like a battle for the first couple weeks. Like, you— The mind-blowing thing was to think, "Oh my god, all this is just happening in my head." And then you're like, "Am I losing my mind? This is all in my head?" The fact that your mind can do that.

Tommy: And so how do you deal with it from a relationship point of view? Like, if you're sort of flipping out, do you just— do you have the awareness to say, hey Nat, like, I'm not feeling good, so I'm going to be like, seem stressed at the moment? Or like, how do you deal with it?

Matt: Yeah, I think that there probably can be a tendency to feel a bit of shame around it and feel like you're— it's a weakness and not want to bring it up to your partner and not want to talk about it. And like, and certainly I personally don't want to talk about it every single time that I get it. Like, one, I don't think it helps all the time, and I think it would be annoying if literally every time I felt a little bit anxious I told her.

Tommy: It becomes an identity, like it becomes part of your identity, right?

Matt: And then you believe it more. The storey you tell yourself is that I'm this person with anxiety. But I will say that obviously early on, having conversations with Nat, talking about my anxiety, just be like letting her know this is how I feel, helped me out a a lot. It helped me to relax. She helped to reassure me that she was there, and that like, you know, she's like, I, you know, I truly don't think you're allergic to the apartment. I think that this is anxiety, but you know, we can go to— you should go to a doctor and then we'll get it checked out. And, um, so she was super supportive, and I think having the support of your partner is essential.

Tommy: That's so nice.

Josh: Was this something that you think you had or you experienced earlier on in life?

Matt: It's funny, I mean, I really don't I don't think like it's related to my subscriber count.

Josh: But what the whiteboard says.

Matt: Yeah, but I would say like I'd never experienced anxiety like that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: So who knows, maybe it did have something to do.

Josh: But aversion, like you said, I don't bring it up every time I experience it. What about you experiencing?

Tommy: Yeah, when you have $90,000 worth of debt, you know, student loans.

Matt: Yeah, not that I can remember. Not like that.

Josh: That's just normal in America, isn't it?

Matt: Yeah, that's normal. Par for the course. But yeah, no, I definitely don't think that I felt too— I didn't feel very anxious very early on. I think it's like something— it probably developed largely from like dating anxieties. Like I had a stint of 5 years where I didn't go on any dates. I didn't go out and meet anybody. And then that built up to be like really intense social anxiety, which was I think the first time I really felt it where I'm like, holy shit, like I'm like shaking in the shower right now. About this date I'm gonna go on in like an hour. And I'm like, there's— you're gonna go out and like have a coffee with somebody. You're not going to war.

Josh: And yeah, I remember you telling me that, and then you went and it was all good.

Matt: Yep, and then it was fine, and I felt invincible after. It sounds silly, but it was like— I was like, oh, like— and I think that's something that everybody can like learn from, is that if you push yourself to do these things that are uncomfortable, it's not as scary as you think. And then if you just keep exposing yourself to it over and over again, eventually it becomes so small and insignificant.

Tommy: Do you have mechanisms systems when you're at a party to sort of alleviate social anxiety?

Matt: I don't get too socially anxious, uh, in like parties and groups and stuff. Um, but I think it was mostly just a dating thing. I think it was just pressure I was putting on myself from a dating perspective.

Tommy: Can you tell us about this, uh, massage incident?

Matt: Yeah, so, all right, the, the other day Nat and I had just gotten back from a little bit of a trip, and then I told her like, I want I want to get a massage. And she's like, oh yeah, I'll find a place for you. And then she found a place and I want to say, I don't want to say the name of the place, but let's just say it was Happy Massage. It wasn't called Happy Massage.

Tommy: Smiley Massage.

Matt: Yeah, let's say Happy Massage.

Josh: Yeah, you walk out smiling.

Matt: Yeah. So then I just, she said that and then so then I Googled it and I wrote in Happy Massage. It's really great, highly reviewed, 130 ratings, all like 4.5-star. I'm like, this is perfect. So then I Google it and then I copy and paste the address in my phone. I see that it's 4 minutes away.

Tommy: What sort of massage were you after?

Matt: Hand job. No, it was, I was just looking for, I think just more like a sports massage, deep tissue, just trying to like work out the kinks and—

Tommy: What's a sports hand job?

Matt: I want one. Sports hand job, yeah.

Tommy: They do it wearing a baseball glove.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's right next to the ER.

Tommy: You have to go to the hospital afterwards.

Matt: Yeah, and I, so I, I go to this place and then like I'm looking at the outside of like, this is a storey of how everything is adding up in the wrong way and you still continue forward. So then I get to the place and I'm like, I thought it was actually in this other part of town, but I'm like, alright, I guess this is it. And then I get to the front, I'm like, this doesn't look like the photos that they had online, and I'm pretty sure the name was a little bit different, but it's, it's got the same part of the name in it, right? It was still like Happy Massage One or something. And then I walk in and then there's a lady at the counter and I was like, uh, massage for 1 hour. And then didn't recognise her voice. I was like, that's not the voice that I spoke to on the phone when I booked in the massage. I was like, ah, whatever. And then she said, come in the back. And then I go in the back and then it's very brightly lit. It's hard to get a read on like a lot of these like affordable Thai massage places. They're all kind of like cheap and dingy and a little bit weird. They're not like high-end, right? And I wasn't—

Tommy: I'm more comfortable at like shopping malls, right?

Josh: Oh, where you're fully clothed with your face in there.

Matt: Yeah, no, not even—

Tommy: not in the middle, but ones that have paid the least to be in the mall, because you've got to think like your Westfields and stuff.

Josh: They're all— I heard in Australia there's a lot of those that are like, um, laundering money.

Matt: I could see that. Yeah, Breaking Bad style.

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: Um, so then, so the next thing was, um She's— this was the big, big indicator where after this happened, I was like, remember everything. It was like Liam Neeson in Taken. It was like, remember every detail of this room because you're gonna have to tell this storey later. And she asked me, uh, to pay up front. So that's never happened to me in a massage.

Josh: Did you have cash on you?

Matt: Yes, but I don't know if you— of course I had. I mean, credit card, but yeah, yeah, yeah. She asked me to pay credit card up front, and like, that, that only happens with like fast food and —happy endings. And prostitutes, right?

Tommy: Why happy endings?

Matt: It's a prostitute thing.

Tommy: They get a little energy to pay.

Matt: Yeah, you know, like, ever watch a movie? Prostitutes always make you pay upfront because— I love that you're like, "Yeah, the movies." Of course! Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fake movies that aren't real that I've never experienced in my life. But you would pay upfront because then after the guy is finished—

Tommy: There's no shame in having to go home.

Matt: Maybe he just wouldn't pay. You've already given them the service. He's like, I'm not gonna pay, I'm just gonna get out of here. So she made me pay up front, and that's when I'm starting to get suspicious. And then like all the clothes off. Yeah, by the way, Nat thought that this was so weird, and my sister was like making fun of me. Like, I go all clothes off in a massage. Every massage? I mean, I ask them, I say like, clothes off or on? Like, do you want me to keep my trunks on? And they're like, whatever you're comfortable with. And I'm comfortable naked, so I just went full naked. Yeah, I don't know if you do that. I mean, no, definitely not. I'm finding that I'm the only one that does this.

Tommy: I wish you Jeans. No, you don't, you liar.

Josh: No, underwear. It depends if you— Yeah, I don't think I've ever done full nude. No, why?

Tommy: I went to the last massage I had, I hated it. It was like a bamboo massage and they— I was like staying at this place over the weekend and I'd eaten heaps of bread the day before and this bamboo massage is like a rolling pin. I felt like a piece of fucking dough that they were just rolling.

Matt: Oh my God, dude. It was horrendous.

Tommy: So anyway, so you're lying down, you're fully nude.

Matt: Fully naked. Blanket, because that's the way I get massaged. And facing up or down? Uh, definitely facing down to start. But yeah, that's the thing, right? Where I'm like, normally it's like, like if you go to a nice place, it's usually a really thick blanket that they put over top of you, and then you just pull it on top and it literally covers your entire body up to like your neck. Um, and then they would just kind of move it around depending on where they're massaging. But then she was— it was like a handkerchief. I was like, uh, this is supposed to cover my whole body? And it— I mean, really realistically, it was like a medium-sized towel like that, but it's so small, it was just covering my butt. And then when she came in, she did this move. She like lifted up the towel and then put it back down. She just saw my butt. She just saw my butt. And I'm like, she's just way too comfortable with this thing. And like, again, super brightly lit in the place. And then, um, she starts like massaging me, does like a normal massage. Um, a couple other things that I'm like are signs is Why is the brightly lit thing a sign? Um, generally, like, a massage place will have dim lights. Bright lights is like you're at the doctor's office or somebody's giving you a handjob.

Tommy: But is that a handjob thing? You want it to be bright?

Matt: I don't know. I really don't know. I just think that it's like they weren't worr— I think the thing is that they don't care about the mood. Right? They're all about utility. It's not about the massage. So then I think the next thing that I noticed was—

Tommy: That could be a niche, by the way. What about— Beautiful, beautiful lighting for hand jobs.

Matt: You have like, you have somebody that comes in and gives a massage, and then you have the finisher that comes in. Like actually a qualified— What's his slogan again? I don't say that. Not on this episode. He's not more of a massage guy. Yeah, yeah. Okay, you just cut that out real quick. But okay, so then the next thing is that like And this happens, right, sometimes in massages, but she's like massaging my back and her boobs keep like touching my head and like resting on my head. Her thighs are touching my hands. What was she wearing? She was just wearing like yoga pants.

Josh: OK, so that wasn't sus?

Matt: No, it wasn't sus, but she wasn't wearing like sexy lingerie. OK, fair enough. But then, uh, so then she's kind of just touching me in ways that like happens in massages, but it felt kind of intentional. She started, then she, um, She massaged my bare butt. Like she would come down in the massage and then massage my butt a little bit. But that's not the first time that's happened. I've had like some Chinese massages in Brooklyn that would do the same thing and nobody ever offered a hand job afterwards. All the glutes are there. Yeah, I mean, she did too. Actually, that was another one too. She focused a lot of time on my butt and like rubbing my crotch into the ground and that was super uncomfortable. And then it's a Me Too movement for sure.

Tommy: —any of this moment you're like, "It's wrong, but it sort of feels like it feels good a little bit"?

Matt: Yeah, 'cause she's giving you a massage, but then you're also like, "This is getting kinda weird," but then I'm like, "Let's just see where it goes." And then, um, then she ends up having me turn over, and then when I turn over she just lifts up the blanket. She lifts up the towel. I'm like, "OK, she just saw me. She just saw all of me." And then they put the towel back. She puts the towel back on me. Yeah, she did the move again, and I'm like, "That's not appropriate." The move is like you turn away, lift up, and then they roll, and then you put it down. And then she starts massaging my legs, and pretty much that's it. I think she just massaged my legs. And then the one move that she did where— This is when I was sure, right? She grabbed my hand and she—

Tommy: It sounds like a completely stressful experience.

Matt: Dude, do you have no idea how I was feeling on the inside? I was so stressed out.

Josh: How in your head are you? I'm fucking— Your ankles are sweating.

Tommy: Talk about anxiety. Yeah.

Matt: I was so stressed out, like nervous. Like legitimately nervous. I'm like, "What is going on?" My mouth is starting to sweat, 'cause I was just really excited about the hand job. No. So then, um, she grabs my hand and she throws it at her butt. And I'm like, "Whoa." She basically, like this, she took it and she went like that. Like threw it at my butt. Or at her butt. And then I just let gravity take over and I just let it drop down to the ground. I was like, "Whaaat?" and then— Do you reckon that's a move? Yeah, that's a move, right? It's to have me grab her butt, and then she did it twice, and the second time I said, "No thank you." "No thank you." And it's like, so that was a sign to—

Tommy: like, if you touched her butt, then she would know that it's all clear for the happy ending? I think so, yeah, yeah.

Matt: I think she was just trying to get a gauge. She didn't want to take that extra step. Do you have to leave a tip? You pay up front. So including tip? I have no idea because I didn't get a handjob.

Josh: So spoiler, no thank you.

Matt: Is that gonna be the name of this episode?

Josh: But how many minutes left of the session do you have at that point where she's throwing your hand?

Matt: How many minutes left? Yeah, like is it— Oh, like there was supposed to be 30 minutes left of the massage. It ended early. But she—

Tommy: It sounded like you said ended arly. Early.

Matt: Ended early. That's the American accent. Yeah, yeah. So she threw it and then I said, "No thank you." And I just realised then that like, when I'm being sexually assaulted, I'm incredibly polite. No thank you. No thank you. I'm good. I'm okay.

Josh: And so, because I felt bad, right?

Matt: I felt bad that I was like rejecting her in a weird way.

Tommy: All of a sudden it turns into that dating anxiety, like, yes, it comes out.

Josh: And what was the conversation with her once you—

Matt: once it all— she didn't speak very good English, for one, because it's—

Josh: the massage concluded.

Matt: Well, then like after the butt things and I said no thank you, then she started talking about my muscles and she was like, she's like, oh, you're big and strong, you're big and strong. And she's not wrong. I mean, that was me. Yeah, yeah, I mean, she's right, so. But she's strong, big, strong. And I'm like, that's weird. But like, my doctor actually did the same thing. Like, wow, look at you. Wow, you're working out. And then I'm like, okay, I mean, it's— I don't know.

Josh: Is the doctor in the same building?

Matt: Yeah, it's actually the same person. Um, so then, yeah, so she just loved that the doctor was like almost hitting on you. With— that was the same time I was anxious too, and it was like with the other person in the room. Maybe it's like— and she's like touching my abs. She's like, oh wow, you work out.

Josh: "Give this guy some pleasure." It's a very Los Angeles thing.

Matt: It's nice. It only works women saying that to men, for sure. Which, I mean, for obvious reasons.

Josh: But there was someone watching. There was the assistant in the doctor's office.

Matt: And I was also thinking, "When is she gonna tell me to take off my pants?" So I'm super nervous as it is. Honestly, my brother said after I told him this whole experience, he's like, "Every massage I've ever gotten, I've always thought they were gonna give me a handjob." Like, "OK, when are they gonna do it?" Of course they're gonna go for it.

Tommy: How does it actually happen? You wonder about how those things come.

Matt: And then, I mean, I figured it out firsthand. And firsthand. So then she, um, the next step is the final straw. She starts tickling me, which felt great. Yeah, it actually, because it's like, it's like, it felt like really good, but then also equally uncomfortable and equally like, okay, what the fuck is happening right now? She's tickling my stomach. And then I just, and then she's like, she got within like a foot of my face. She's like, huh, huh, huh? And then I'm like— she's like, first time massage? And I'm like, uh, yeah. She's like, done? And I'm like, uh, yeah. And I think she thought at that moment that I already came, because she starts laughing. And then she's in the hallway, and then she started— she's in the hallway laughing. And then I'm like, I got up and like, I got dressed, like, you know, just felt violated. And then I legitimately had to like walk around the block. I had to walk it off. I was like, did you worry that someone was filming or like this was a setup or— yeah, I mean, like, yeah, why is it well lit?

Josh: Is this—

Matt: what are these cameras doing here? And then, uh, so I walked around the block and then I got on the phone and I called Nat and she was just dying laughing as I retold the whole story. And then we ended up finding out is that when I Googled the name, like Google automatically pops up the place they think you're talking about, and it was the wrong place, and I didn't know it, so I copied and pasted the wrong spot. 'Cause that's why in my head I'm like, they have 130 good reviews, like did they just fake all these reviews? It turns out it was the wrong place. Oh, 5-star, baby. Yeah, that was my first time, yeah, at a head-hanging massage place. And last time. I hope so, yeah. So stressful.

Tommy: Yeah, I wonder if there's, from the outside how you can tell? You can tell. Was there any red lights?

Matt: You can tell, but then, yeah, like not, yeah, I guess like there were some red lights, but like you could tell it was super hole in the wall. Like I've been to some like Thai places and they like, they don't look that suspicious.

Tommy: So you think shitty ones were like the happy endings? I think so. Did the reviews point to happy endings?

Matt: At the actual place it did. Yeah. Like when I, cause I didn't look at the actual place. I was looking at the wrong place. And were they reviewed favorably?

Tommy: Or not, so people like—

Matt: Mixed reviews. Yeah. 'Cause some people said, "This is not a massage place. They do things that I can't even speak of." But I went with it. But I'm like, "What if Nat and I went in together?" "What if Nat went? What would they do?" Is it illegal? And also, oh my god, one of the funniest parts about it was that I heard, at least from my— It's probably not as funny to retell it, but my experience of being in it, the bell rings and somebody walks in 30 minutes in, right? And then she lets him into a room, and she's like, She's like, it's a bro. Like, the dude's like, hey, what's up, Tina? How's it going? Good to see you again. And then like she takes him into another room where he's gonna wait. And I'm like, I've got 30 minutes left. He's waiting for 30 minutes. Oh my gosh, he's gonna give me a handjob. So it was that, but like the whole time in your head, you're like, there's no way this is real. Actually, Malcolm Gladwell has a new book called Talking with Strangers. That's kind of about this whole thing where like how you, when you start to, yeah, how we misinterpret each other and how you really understand whether somebody's lying or telling the truth. And what somebody's true intentions are. And, like, people get very far along in those predicaments where they give the other person the benefit of the doubt because you don't wanna make them look silly or foolish.

Josh: We hope people are doing the right thing. Is there— what's the law in LA?

Matt: Uh, no, you're not allowed to do that. So it's illegal. It's illegal in LA to do that, yeah, and to receive it as well. Oh, really? So you would have gotten done. Yeah, imagine if that happened. Imagine that. Oh, my god. Like, that was the sting operation.

Josh: And I see you laid with it, like you posted it on your Instagram. Is there something like sharing it? Yeah, front-footing this, because if someone was on a long wait—

Tommy: if Tainer does an Instagram post about $200, yeah, real quick.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, a new client, like easiest client so far. Um, yeah, no, it was, uh, it was a whole mess.

Josh: It was a mess. Uh, can we have the address, young Mr.

Matt: 97? First time. It's close by, it's close by here.

Tommy: We've been live streaming. I thought for the last few minutes we could read out some of the things people are asking. We've hit the 60-minute limit, so it's turned off. Oh, really? I've got a few messages.

Josh: Dr. K says, wow, my favourite podcast is all in one place. Amazing, Dr. K.

Tommy: Matt's biceps look smaller sitting in between the Aussie boys.

Matt: There we go. That's all right, that's okay. Doesn't hurt my ego at all.

Tommy: Uh, it's Jelf, I-T-G-E-L-F. Yeah, it's Gelf maybe. Matt, when do you take a shower, before bed or in the morning?

Matt: It's a great question. Uh, it's usually, it's always after a workout, so, and I'll usually work out probably about 5 days a week or so. Um, lately since I've got an office now, I've got an editor that just started, we will go for, uh, I'll probably go for a workout in the morning around 6 o'clock and then shower right afterwards. But I definitely— I usually don't shower at night unless I've had like a really long day and it's almost like a therapeutic relaxing shower.

Josh: You've been to a massage parlour and you needed to get that bloody dirt off you.

Matt: Actually, I do remember that shower afterwards.

Tommy: Has it got a certain smell, the massage oil they used?

Matt: No, it's got a taste though.

Josh: Mr. 97 showers twice a day. Yeah, really? Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I mean, that evening one goes for like 30 minutes. Yeah, that's crazy.

Josh: I'm just thinking I'm just thinking. I just use it as a thinking place.

Matt: Yeah, I think— yeah, no, I mean, I like it. I think that, um, and I've definitely had 2 showers in a day before. Sometimes if I'm like, not very minimalist, uh, but like sometimes in the morning if I'm going to be filming that day, I'll take a shower because I need to clean up and like have like my hair not looking like I have bed head. Yeah. And then I'll work out and have to shower after that. So sometimes I will.

Tommy: Great. Gus also asked, how has stand-up stand-up impacted your YouTube career?

Matt: Oh, let's see. I did a little stand-up comedy. I think one, that's like just that thing of embracing discomfort and putting yourself in a place where you're just absolutely terrified. Like getting up on stage and trying to make strangers laugh is I think one of the most vulnerable things that you can do and one of the most like gut-wrenching reality checks. Like right away, like if you bomb on stage, which I have have many times, um, you kind of like— your ego just disappears because you're like, oh, I suck and I have a long way to go. And so starting a YouTube channel compared to getting on stage and telling jokes is so fucking easy, you know what I mean? I think when you do something like that, it kind of puts it in perspective.

Josh: You should do 30 days of stand-up.

Matt: No way. Stand up a day for 30 days. No way. I don't think I have it anymore. I don't—

Tommy: that's what would make it fun, right?

Matt: Maybe I'll think about it.

Tommy: You're super fucking funny. Maybe at some point.

Matt: Yeah, no, I know, but 30 days, dude, is 30 days of open mics. Yeah, 30 days, I don't— like, you might see a little bit of progress for sure, but like, it's over the long run. Yeah, it's over the long run, dude. Like, I know people that do stand-up, they go like— sometimes they do multiple shows a night, like in New York, like 3 shows a night. There'll be 5 to 7 days a week just doing stand-up, and they've been doing it for years. And, um, it just takes a very long time to develop that skill. Yeah, it's interesting. It's— yeah, it's a full commitment, and it's like 24/7. You're always thinking about jokes. Yeah, you have that filter on everything in life, and it's kind of like you guys probably— your filter with— yeah, but with your podcast, right? It's like, well, that's an interesting bit, that's something that I could talk about.

Tommy: And you know when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, we end up talking about food. Yeah. Oh man. Hey man, I ordered sweet potato. Did you know they've got more calories than the other potato? Yeah. Like, nah, that's bullshit.

Josh: Is that true? Wow. Yeah. Geez. That's interesting.

Tommy: You know, that's the end of today's talk show. Matt D'Avella, thank you. We're gonna be on your YouTube channel the 19th of November. Yep. Which should be fun.

Matt: Yeah. It's gonna be amazing. It's a set date, so you can't swap it around. Can't back out now. No. Yeah. Go talk show.

Tommy: If you've enjoyed the show, Instagram, please share on Insta Stories, tag up Dear Valor, tag up us. Also, Apple Podcast reviews are appreciated. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, guys. See you guys.

Matt: Bye, guys.