Vince Lebon On Building A Global Shoe Brand

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 495.

Josh: We're 5 away from the big 500, baby.

Tommy: Uh, Vince Labon, welcome to The Daily Talk Show.

Vince: Thank you.

Josh: It's great to have you in the studio.

Vince: Yeah, cheers, mate.

Josh: Uh, fresh from the States. Well, not too fresh.

Vince: Yeah, a couple months in now.

Josh: How, um, how was your experience? We're heading over next week. I mean, you lived there for quite some time.

Vince: Yeah, yeah, it was a crazy experience. I was there for 2 years, but I've spent quite a bit of time there the last couple years. And, uh, yeah, it's very different when you're living there for sure. I've got a young family, 2 kids, so, uh, it was a crazy, crazy experience.

Josh: So people might know your shoe brand here in Melbourne, Rolly. Yeah, I've definitely seen a bunch of people walking around with them. Uh, you started that how many years ago? Uh, 7 years ago now, and it's morphed into something bigger than you thought it would, or?

Vince: Yeah, look, I always had faith in sort of where I could put my energy in, and I thought it was a fun brand that I wanted to create that was much bigger than me. It's not called Vince Labon, you know, it's the Rolly Nation.

Tommy: Good name though. It would be good.

Vince: Yes, it's actually my wife's nickname.

Tommy: Yeah, it's great. So yeah, Rolly. Yeah. How did she get the nickname?

Vince: It's something I don't really talk about because it makes me look really bad.

Tommy: I assumed it had something because she worked as a flight attendant. Yeah, she was a flight attendant for Qantas.

Vince: Honest.

Tommy: So I just assumed the storey that I'd created was Rolly. It's like she's got like a roll-on bag or whatever, and she was—

Vince: yeah, it's definitely not the real story, but I mean, that's a lot of people assume that. It was just a cute nickname that I sort of had for her. Yeah, that we developed. And I never really called her that, but like all her passwords were always Rolly. And so—

Josh: oh God, has she changed them?

Vince: Yeah, now she has. So yeah, don't try to hack. So they're all changed. Um, but yeah, and I was— I worked on the, the business model for 6 months, and then I worked on the actual shoe for 6 months. And so yeah, it just felt like the right fit, you know. And we wanted to create something that was much bigger than me, and we— I think we've done that. Like, the community is super, super engaged.

Tommy: Did it feel like a luxury to spend 6 months sort of— is it literally like a pen and paper type of deal, or—

Vince: yeah, I mean, well, I had like a couple different options of, um, what I was trying to do, and because what I didn't want to do was just create another shoe. The world doesn't need another shoe. So I was— it was really looking at the the actual model itself and going, I've got no money, so how am I going to launch a business and how are we going to do it in a way that I can scale up without trying to bring on, you know, some other partners if I could? And so it was about going, okay, I looked at, you know, a lot of the businesses in the Australian market that were doing well and Dunlop and you've got, I guess, you know, Converse, TOMS and thought, how can we create one product that we just sort of keep updating the colours and build out a community from there and collaborate with all these artists?. And that's sort of how I guess the idea just came about. So, but it felt right to sort of work on the model first and then product, you know, the product is an outcome of the model, not the other way around.

Josh: Do you think not having money to start something is actually a great stress or pressure to create something great?

Vince: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think it's one lens to look at starting a business. I think the problem with that is a lot of people also think, well, I haven't got much to lose, so they don't think things out too much either.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Vince: So it's a mix of both, right? Um, yeah, I think what it does is it makes you really think about, shit, how can I make this work? How can I really— if I had lots of money, you just probably throw a lot at it and go, oh well, that didn't quite work, and then you pivot. Whereas if you don't have money, you go, well, every dollar counts. So, um, you know, a lot of thought went into how we're going to make this work. And, and for me, I've been in the footwear business for 10 years at that point, at that point. So it was like what happens if this doesn't work? How do I get rid of the inventory? And then how do I go back in?

Tommy: How much are you thinking about things like margins?

Vince: Uh, I, I mean, because I had been in the business for a while, I knew commercially what the margin should sit at. So for me, that was like baseline. I didn't have to think about it. I just, I knew that's what I had to hit. Um, but what I did notice, like, looking back, is you get what you focus on, right? So if you focus on building a business, it's very, very easy to build a business and not be profitable.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: So in, you know, my first wholesale account was the world's largest shoe store in Dubai. You know, I sold 500 pairs in less than 5 weeks at the South Melbourne Market. Um, and so like it really started to take off pretty quickly. And you know, we had distribution in Netherlands, and in the first 2 years I picked up Nordstrom, um, in the US because I— we did a trade show up there and everything was really, really taking off. But, um, you know, we weren't overly profitable. I mean, it takes— we're in an inventory business, so you need money to make money, right? And even though we're making money, our orders kept getting bigger, so that then went on to the next run. But it wasn't until I really focused on how do we be— I want a successful business, and that means an admirable brand that's also profitable. And the minute I focus on both of those, it happened within 6 months.

Josh: And that— so from the South Melbourne market to being stocked, you know, around the world. Is this a, uh, is this part of that 6-month plan, you know, with that time you spent planning out? Was that—

Vince: Absolutely, yeah, yeah. So that, that 6 months that I took out, um, like I said, it was the business model. So okay, um, forget about the product. What is it? It was a shoe that stays the same, same last, you know. I'd worked in, um, I worked with a trading company prior to that, so I'd been spending 2 years in China, a month on, a month off. Uh, this was 4 kids, so that was definitely doable. Uh, and so I got to the point where I'm like, let's design the same shoe, same outsole, same lace, same sock, same shoebox, everything, just the upper material changes. So it was very easy to sort of go back and keep updating, you know, the shoes. And so that whole concept, uh, and the go-to-market strategy was also created from the beginning. So I knew I wanted to do international trade shows. I already went and travelled to the US and checked out a trade show there. I went to Japan and checked out a show there. So I actually ended up bringing some partners in pretty early in because they— I'd got a full-time job because I was like, I'm about to have my first child. I'm not, I'm not trying to start a new business right now. But I told them, I called them up and said, look, I'm looking for a job, but I have a business that I've just launched. It's doing really well. And they said, yeah, cool, no conflict of interest. I came in a couple of weeks, they offered me a partnership with that business. So that was really good. They were the leading independent footwear company at the time, or still are actually. Um, and so yeah, I said, cool, I'm willing to partner up, but here's my 3-year plan. Um, and I had it all staged out and they were all for it. Um, signed up. We— and so I sort of had 2 jobs at the same time, was doing Rolly and doing this other designing for this other company. About a year in, uh, the business— Rolly business was just getting too big and I'm like, I've got to I've got to do this full-time. Yeah, I transitioned and did that full-time. We brought on an assistant, uh, and it was like grassroots, man. Like, you know, we had one desk and I was working here and my, uh, assistant was working on the same desk, playing hip-hop music blaring out in, uh, in this office. And it was cool, it was really fun times, man. Like, we did a lot with, uh, 3 people. But in the end, it was like, we had— we did a lot with 3 people. We're in 11 countries and just like It was crazy busy.

Tommy: And so how do you go from there to end up on a reality show?

Vince: That's a good question.

Josh: It wasn't Big Brother.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was The Bachelor.

Vince: It was Naked and Afraid.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: Um, so what happened is after— so I ended up, um buying out and exiting from that original partnership. Culturally, we just weren't aligned. You know, I'm trying to build a brand. They were trying to sell shoes. So I bought them out and then we went from, you know, within, within a year we basically tripled our business. We went from 3 people to 10 people.

Tommy: Right.

Vince: It was crazy.

Tommy: How did you manage, like, knowing when to bring on a staff member? Do you say if we're getting X amount of revenue, we can afford one more and then one more? Or how does that work?

Vince: Yeah, a little bit like that. I mean, it was very— it was much easier in the early days. When you have no money, you make good decisions.

Tommy: Yes.

Vince: If you're not— if you're able to sort of disconnect the emotional side. So if you go, right, you know, when we were 3 people, my next hire, which a lot of people would think was, was nuts at the time, and like, I mean, even starting a concept like Rolly was nuts at the time, right? Like it was quite groundbreaking at the time just because no one had white soles, super lightweight shoes. It looked like a unisex shoe. It was crazy. But anyway, at 3 people, my, my fourth hire was an online specialist. Right? And you would think, oh, what about a production manager? Or what about— a lot of people focus on things to make their life easier. And I'm like, no, no, let's— at this stage, it's about hiring people that are going to add more money to the top line, right? Who can cover their own cost. And then that's how we just kept building and building. Every single person we hired had a direct impact to the, to the revenue. Um, so that's the, I think, the best way to grow.

Josh: And how much naivety is in those early days? Upon hindsight, um, in making those decisions to see, you know, how it plays out? You're like, oh God, that was a bit too early, but it worked.

Vince: Or, you know, to be honest, like, it always, it always felt quite— I felt very good with the decisions that I was making because they felt very calculated. And like, well, I knew exactly, like you said, like how much revenue they had to bring in to cover their cost, right? And I'm like, well, we can already see that this is working. Most of the time I try to make the money and then bring them in to support that baseline and then continue to grow. Anyone who's sort of known me or followed, I guess, my journey is always like when they speak to me like, oh, Rolly's doing really well, I'm like, oh, we're not even close to where we need to be.

Josh: Yeah.

Vince: And so I'm, I'm always thinking, cool, I'm happy where we are, but we need to be here and we need these steps to get there. I guess the naivety was around. It's just a crazy idea.

Josh: I'm just—

Vince: yeah, I guess quite ambitious. And I think New York was probably where I thought, I think I've gone a little bit too far now. Yeah.

Tommy: You know, and so what came first, moving to the US or getting getting the opportunity to do the reality show. And I feel like the funny thing with the reality show is it's sort of underselling what it was because it was also like an intensive course, right?

Vince: Absolutely.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: So I think the, the way I got to the reality show was basically I had scaled up to the— I think we were 10 people at the time, and I just felt like all I was doing was running a business, right? And I'm a creative at heart, even though, you know, I know how to to run a business. I'm looking at P&Ls and I'm an Excel geek. I love it.

Tommy: But, uh, what's your favourite formula?

Vince: Uh, it's never just like— I love like just mixing all of them together. I make— I have this obsession with making everything dynamic. Yeah, I don't like to go back to the same sheet and it's like, no, I want it to link to the columns and not, you know.

Josh: But you need Airtable.

Vince: I use Airtable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Airtable's great.

Tommy: I had one issue with the dynamic thing when I was working, um, in an office and it was one of those shared spaces where that like 4 creatives like, oh, we should all have an office together, which ended up being a little bit of a clusterfuck. But it just took not selecting like 5 sales to at the end of the year being like, oh guys, we're $10 grand off. So you got to be— you don't want to go too deep in there. Yeah. Into the dynamic stuff. And so, so you're 10 people.

Vince: Yep.

Tommy: You're, you're spending a lot of time doing the profit and loss stuff.

Vince: Yep. And, and I was just like, I needed to take a design sabbatical.

Tommy: I'm like, did that feel like a luxury at the time?

Vince: No. Like I said, I mean, I'm a, I'm one of those guys that I feel pretty confident in my decisions and that can work against me at times. But it's like I was like, the business is not going to die if I'm not here for 2 weeks. And if it is going to die, then I've done a bad job with setting up my company, right? Like I believe in my team and at the time. So the design sabbatical was actually for Pencil. So Pencil is a sneaker design academy, right? And they have little they have masterclasses, and the masterclass, it was actually 3 weeks. The first one I applied for was 3 weeks, and this will lend into the TV show, so bear with me for a second. So I was like, I need to, I need to take a break, I need to like have a design sabbatical. So I applied for, um, uh, I can't remember what the first class was, but anyway, I applied for one of the classes and I did a dope sneaker design, um, and I got rejected. I was like, what? Yeah, I was like, this is dope.

Josh: Like, what makes up a dope sneaker design?

Vince: Uh, for me it was just like, it was innovative, it was original. You know, I'm not one of those guys that are trying to jack like the trends out that are out there and just do my own version of a shoe and go, oh, that looks like an Ultraboost or a Balenciaga sneaker. Like, I try to have my own vibe. And, and so I did this sneaker design and sent it through and then got knocked back. I actually got shortlisted, but then I got knocked back and said, oh, because they're only— they're very small, like you can get I think 12 people per class and they have like, you know, thousands of people applying. And so I wrote to the, the main guy, Duane Edmonds, who's my mentor now, and was like, hey, just want to get some feedback, you know? He's like, oh, look, great design. Just, you know, it takes people 3 or 4 times sometimes to just keep applying. I'm like, okay, cool.

Josh: And how much time went into doing the design?

Vince: Not much time.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: You talk about the naive side.

Tommy: This is it.

Josh: And so confident.

Tommy: And also, but also, was there a part of you like, what was the relationship with having to apply or getting picked or that sort of thing? Did having a successful business that's sort of running and then playing that game, did you have to put your ego aside?

Vince: Yeah, I think, um, yeah, like, I didn't realise it until I actually got knocked back that there was a level of that. Um, I just, I was like, oh cool, like, I'm a dog snake designer, I've got a business that's working, why did— and like, when I reached out, it wasn't out of anger. I was like, yeah, I'm trying to actually learn here. What was it? And so he's like, no, just keep applying. And so what happened was they come out, you know, probably every quarter, every 6 months. So I designed the next one, the next class. And it was funny, when I finished that sneaker, I decided to— so I did that, I did the sneaker, submitted it, and before the third one even came out, I started designing the next one. I was like, so it was a really good mind shift for me. I was going, this is not about getting in the class, this is about me being better as a designer.

Josh: And so, uh, it's like challenge, like you're like, I'll get in, I'll keep designing and you guys know it was beyond that.

Vince: Honestly, it was, it was like, because I like, I don't look at Rolly as a full-blown sneaker brand, right? So it's a, it's a casual fashion. Yeah.

Tommy: My phone is— can you put my phone on silent if you're already having it? 97, what an absolute nightmare. Uh, yeah, go on.

Josh: So Rolly's not a full-blown—

Vince: it's not a, it's not a street, it's not a hype sneaker brand or anything like that. So it was like cool, I want to play in this space now, so let me just do this for myself. And as soon as that mental shift happened, you know, I got into the class. Um, and so I actually applied for colour materials because that's, you know, one of my strengths. Um, so I went to the class, uh, it was 3 weeks in Portland. They flew, uh, they paid for, you know, all the accommodation and, and the class. It was with Foot Locker and Asics. Um, and so they put you in groups of 3 we went through and one of my guys got kicked out because he was mentally a little bit unstable, which plays well for a reality show, I guess.

Tommy: Do you make it?

Vince: Well, this wasn't a reality show.

Tommy: This wasn't even in there at that point.

Vince: Yeah, no, so this was just the first masterclass.

Tommy: And so is it a certain type of person? Like, I guess you're getting the, you know, there is the creator sort of persona that you can imagine. Is it a bit like that where you end up with just a bunch of creative directors in the room butting heads?

Vince: Pretty much, yeah, yeah, yeah. That They, they, they have a marketing, a business. So it's business and marketing, then there's a colour materials designer, and then there's an actual footwear designer.

Tommy: And so colour materials is so the colour of the shoe, and then like the material is like— what is that?

Vince: It's very insightful.

Tommy: So is it like picking between like, ah, like how many different materials could you use in a shoe? Like how many options do you have?

Vince: So many millions, you know. I think, um The thing around colour materials is that the reason why I love it so much is because I have a holistic view to design and go, well, the colour materials actually dictates the storey and the feeling, and then how that translates to a shoe and actually informs the design. And so for me, I guess, yeah, I'm not just picking colours and materials. I'm like going, okay, what's it, you know, working with— because I have the business experience and the footwear design and the colour materials, I try to have a holistic view. And so um, that I think really worked, you know, in both. So we— I ended up winning the, the competition even though we were one man down. I won the A6 in Foot Locker. So that launched, um, with them, um, and like it sold, sold out in a day, which was awesome. It was a global release. And so then Pensoul reached out and were like, hey, we're going to do a reality TV show, we'd love for you to apply. And so that's how that all happened.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: So originally it was just meant to be 3 weeks.

Josh: Yeah.

Vince: And then I get, you know, the knock on the shoulder going, hey, please apply for a reality TV show. And For me, I had no desire to do that.

Josh: They're the best people for television though. Yeah, it's like the people that—

Tommy: it's like Mr. 97. He doesn't like talking, so we give him a microphone and he's great.

Vince: Yeah, I think you should like set him up next time with the camera.

Josh: What's the application process for reality TV?

Vince: Intense. Crazily, crazy intense.

Tommy: Like, it was a— so it was called Lace Up.

Vince: It was called Lace Up: The Ultimate Sneaker Design Challenge.

Tommy: And it was— was it always a YouTube original or was it made and then sold to YouTube?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it was.

Vince: So it It was the, the guy who ran the whole project was the guy who did America's Next Top Model.

Tommy: Oh cool.

Vince: So I mean, he knew what he was doing. Yeah, he's been running that ever since. And my— the word is that was meant to be sold to Fox, which would have been great for us. Um, but then YouTube was trying to launch a YouTube Red channel and obviously paid more. And that was the start of the thing not really working, to be honest. Um, you know, they poured a lot of money into it and they had, you know, all the right people associated to it, you know, like they're crazy celebrities and they had, you know, Adidas or Adidas really sort of backed the whole thing.

Tommy: Is it because like I was reading the comments and it's like a certain— the sneaker freak community, a certain type. Yeah, very sort of like there's all these like status games that are playing and it's just like people calling out like, you know, fucking getting behind everyone and all that sort of stuff. Was that— were you used to that world? Have you— had you experienced that?

Vince: I mean, I wasn't so deep into the sneaker world until I started Pencil. You know, I always appreciated sneakers, you know, the Jordans back in the day. That was like my first love for sneakers. And so, I mean, I had known a bit about— I think the show, what they tried to do was go a little bit too wide. They tried to get a bit— they tried to get everyone.

Tommy: Sure.

Vince: And I think with the sneaker world, it's got to be super authentic, right? You've got to be super dialled in. And I don't think they sort of achieved that. And that's probably why it didn't work.

Josh: So you got your, you know, the place where you feel most comfortable. I could imagine designing and being your creative self and then TV crew on top of that.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: What was the most confronting thing about having your space where you love and you can do your thing?

Vince: Yeah. And then that— it's super weird at first. Like, you know, there's— there was 7 full-time cameras on you, manned cameras. There's hidden cameras everywhere. Hidden mics everywhere. Um, and then you've got people that have— they've been hand-picked to mess with you, right? Like, like the— I mean, they have talent. Like, everyone there was like super talented. Um, but I think the way that they put the groups together and the way that everything happens, you know, it— there's a lot that the show doesn't show you because they were trying to stay quite professional and give you the best leg up.

Tommy: But, you know, there's a lot of stuff that happened behind the doors and Do you think that because you, uh, your group went on to win the competition, do you think that given how produced these things are, do you think that you guys were actually engineered to win all along?

Vince: No.

Tommy: Or was it something—

Vince: hell no. Yeah, definitely not.

Tommy: And, and so from a narrative point of view, what's the— yeah, what were the different storeys that they were focused— like, what was the reality of what was happening and what were some of the things that they would pick up? Yeah.

Vince: So they tell storeys within stories. And I think because— so there were two, you know, executive producers, right? There was Dwayne Edmonds, who's really focused on giving us the best chance at life in the creative space. And so, you know, he's an incredible guy. And I think he did a really good job in removing and making sure a lot of the bullshit didn't go through, you know? And then you have the executive producers on the other side who are like, we want entertainment. Yeah, more bullshit.

Tommy: And were there any like props or things that like scenarios they created?

Josh: Who stole my scissors? Rick the producer's neatness.

Tommy: Was there any of that sort of shit?

Vince: Uh, no, it didn't feel— I mean, just, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's an unscripted scripted reality TV show. I mean, you know, you have to say things over and over again. Like, we talk about TV magic because you've got to walk in the door 4 times, you've got to have people saying certain things and making sure everyone's— and what happens is, I mean, over time, like, we're trying to be creative and you've got cameras in your face and like people just lose their mind. They're like 'Fuck it, I don't, I don't need to listen to you.' Like, yeah. And then it becomes tension between the, you know, the guys on the cast and the crew. So it's, yeah, it's very interesting dynamics. But I think like after, because I know I was, you know, one of the older contestants, and there were a few people that are similar to age to me, but you know, I'm a dad, I'm already a professional in the space, and I was like going, 'I'm not trying to act like a fool right now.' Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I was quite reserved for the first week and a half, 2 weeks. But then what? Because I— and it's the first show, so you're not sure how they're going to portray you.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: Um, but then you get tired, then you just lose your mind, you know? Like, you've been working non-stop. We had 3, 3 dark days, which are day offs. We worked every other day. Like, we would get it— we would get a brief in the afternoon, we'd have to pitch the idea at the end of the day, start designing the next day. Make the next day, pitch to the celebrity the next day, and then you're back on it again.

Tommy: It's crazy. I was watching, uh, episode 1, and like the first montage has a lady falling off a bunk bed.

Vince: Oh, Megan, I love her. I mean, the people are incredible people. Yeah, yeah. That's not, that's not set up.

Tommy: Like, she literally just fell off.

Vince: She fell off twice.

Tommy: Maybe at that point she should get the bottom bunk.

Vince: Yeah, yeah, we spoke about that.

Josh: I know reality shows aren't known for paying well. They usually just cover your, your costs.

Vince: So, pain point.

Tommy: Yeah, because it was in, it was in Portland.

Vince: Yeah, it was in Portland.

Tommy: And is Portland, when it comes to, um, cost of living, like food and stuff, they pay for everything? Okay, cool.

Vince: For like living, food, um, I mean, it was meant to be $100,000 prize money, and like, you can imagine having a family, like, I'm like, cool, man, let's, let's make this happen. Like, that made a lot of sense. And then I got there and they like switched it up on us on camera, like, hey, the winner gets a free year of swag and gets a job at Adidas as an internship. I'm like, oh no.

Josh: Yeah.

Vince: What?

Josh: Well, I mean, the people that go on reality shows usually aren't the successful ones. So when you come in having a bit more, it's almost to lose or you're risking a bit by taking the time out. So what was that sort of— well, that would have pissed me off.

Vince: Mentally, that killed me. Yeah. I was like, damn, I'm like giving up being, you know, home with my family to do this.

Josh: And because it's not like I just need— I want the money, but it's like I'm putting it on the line.

Vince: Absolutely. I mean, I think for me it was like the money was one element, right? Like, and I think one of those mindsets too of being able to win in both times is like I didn't go there with the intention to win. My bar is about creating great work, and I believe if we create great work will either win or I'll just be happy with the work that I create. And that's enough for me. And, and I think like when— and so you don't have the added pressure of going, shit, I need to win, right? So that, that really helped us sort of get through, um, where we're at. Um, but definitely, I, you know, at the beginning mentally it was really hard to go, okay, now we don't— there's no money here, so now it's all about the platform.

Tommy: Did you have a conversation, like a hard conversation with producers and stuff when you—

Vince: contractually they can change anything.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: Um, you know, there was a lot of talk about it at the beginning, but then what happens is you end up realising that this is an incredible opportunity regardless of the money, right? And like, to be able to be in a space where you're designing non-stop every single day, challenged to the max for, you know, what was it, 9 weeks with celebrities, um, it was just cool.

Tommy: What happened to your business with Rolly at the time? Were you doing all of this stuff and then having phone calls with the team or what?

Vince: No, they took our phone, so we weren't allowed to talk to people for 9 weeks. For 9 weeks.

Tommy: And you had how many dark days did you say?

Vince: Yeah, 3 dark days. I was, you know, anyone who had a family was able to cheque in, I think every 2 days or like for 10 minutes. This is— but you were filmed. You were filmed when they were checking in. So you couldn't like you couldn't do stuff or talk about stuff like everything. That was being talked about would be on camera essentially. And like, you know, I had my 2IC actually at the time tried to resign at the end. I was like, bro, are you serious right now? Like, I'm trying to focus on getting through right now and you're like, I don't know if I could do this. And so that was, that was a challenge mentally. But it's, you know, like I said, I genuinely believe that this company needs to be set up that I can go out and do the things that I want to do. I don't want to be a slave to this business.

Josh: Yeah, there's the everyday creating the, you know, spending that time on your craft.

Vince: Yeah.

Josh: What I mean, has it— did it take something like the reality show for you to enter into that space?

Vince: Yeah, for sure. Like, I remember one of the biggest key learnings that I got at the end of it was like, man, we just did 8 weeks here and we did a project every 4 days, a project that either went to market or could have went to market. And it was like we had full-blown— it wasn't just product, it was— we had a physical sample, we had a go-to-market strategy, we had everything done, ready. I was like, I could do this every single week and I would have 52 projects at the end of the year and I'd have 3 days off every week.

Josh: Yeah.

Vince: You know, like mentally, like you just imagine if someone released 52 products a year and still felt like they only worked half the week.

Josh: Yeah.

Vince: Like no one thinks about designing at that level.

Josh: And so reflecting, reflecting now that you're not in that sort of pressure cooker to being in the real world, what's, what's the learning? Why don't we do it? Why don't you do that?

Vince: Well, I mean, I've moved back, so I'm gearing up to sort of have little sprints where I do that. Definitely. Like, that's something that I've taken on board and go, cool, how do I bring that into my daily life? I think we just get so caught up in living and like you get caught up with like just the regular day to day that it feels like everything's intense, but it's nothing like controlled, focused creative expression.

Tommy: Do you think this is living important, do you think?

Vince: Yeah, of course. I mean, designing, you know, it's— that's not everything. I think, like, I love design, right? But the ultimately, like, even my business, like, I love my business, but I do it for my family. Right? So it was very easy to sort of go, I'm doing this for 8 weeks because I'm going to go back to my family and hopefully I'll have my goal. Like, aside from winning the money, which got taken off with day one, but you had some great swag.

Tommy: You had the best swag going home.

Vince: Exactly.

Tommy: LAX looking legit, right? Yeah, absolute baller. You look like you had 100 grand. You just did.

Vince: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, 100 grand of, 100 grand of promo gear. No, I mean, at least we got to pick it, which is good.

Tommy: How many snapbacks have you got?

Vince: Oh my God, yes, I got one for every day. Yeah, you know, hey, what are you guys on?

Tommy: 4 or 5?

Vince: What'd you say?

Tommy: 495. 495.

Vince: It's 496. Uh, so yeah, it was, uh, yeah, it was a lot of— but you know, and like at that point I'd— so after the show had aired, uh, or filmed, I was like speaking to Dwayne, my mentor, and he was like, you know, if this show does really well, you know, you've got to be ready and available to take all these interviews and opportunities that guys. So it was like, okay, that's where the moving to the US was like, if I moved to the US, if the show blows up, I could do all my interviews, I could build a platform and a profile, and then have Rolly take off in the US. That was the goal. Um, but yeah, the show didn't, you know, because they, they did it through YouTube Red, and then they did a deal with Complex, which Complex is an amazing, you know, they got a cool, really good sneaker platform, but they're genuine sneakerheads. Yeah, right.

Tommy: And so the show You've done a broad show, you've given it to like a narrow audience that have very specific taste.

Vince: And the worst part about it is no one wanted to cover it press-wise because why would they promote competitor?

Tommy: Yeah, sure.

Vince: Like it was literally the perfect storm in the wrong direction.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Vince: So, um, but it's cool. Like, you know, it sort of reset my expectations of, you know, of sort of where I was at, you know, mentally, and go, okay, 'Well, now what do I do?' You know, I think a lot of times, you know, we focus on, 'Oh, if I only got a partnership, my business, you know, if I got in, if I partnered up with Australia's biggest footwear company, this would blow up.' Yeah. And then it doesn't work out. You're, 'Oh, imagine if I was on a TV show and had this great option.' It's like, no, just make shit happen yourself.

Josh: Yeah, well, it's giving the power over. So it's like Josh saying, um, you know, auditioning or submitting and being knocked back. It's like, I've created all this shit. Why am I, why am I facing this now. Did you, um, did you actually sit down and strategize moving forward without all that stuff? Yeah, you thought might have happened.

Vince: Yeah, sure. I am, like I said, I think even like coming back here, like, this was a real lifestyle decision for us. It was like, okay, how bad do I— I think I was so focused on building an empire just because I felt like I could, as opposed to going, what do I really want in life? And so Mentally, that was a really big shift. And so, you know, I'm looking— I'll eventually release my luxury sneaker line next year. It doesn't need to make money. I'm doing it for myself, right? And so just understanding what and why you're doing things, I think, was really important. So, you know, we bought a— we came back, we bought a place in the country up in, uh, it's near Daylesford, right? And so like, I'm gonna have a little, uh, sample design studio there. So, you know, I'll, I'll go up there every week and just design shoes and or just design stuff.

Tommy: What do you think of the storey that a lot of Australians sort of spin around? If I was in the US, it'd be a completely different story.

Josh: You can say it's our story.

Tommy: It's our story. It would be the biggest fucking thing if we weren't stuck in this shithole. We've got the fucking bins going out and I guess it'd probably be louder in New York. Yeah, definitely. But yeah. What? How did your experience challenge that story?

Vince: Yeah, it challenged it real quick because when I first got there, ComplexCon was on. You know ComplexCon? It's like, okay, it's a big design, uh, it's a big sneaker convention. So they have like limited drops. It's a big deal in the sneaker world. But that was, uh, like literally, I think, okay, the week I came it was, uh, New York Fashion Week. So I was out non-stop for 2 weeks. Uh, my wife stayed with me, which was nice, but that stretched the relationship when we first got there. And then I went to ComplexCon. I got invited there. Um, whereabouts is that? That's in, um, it's in California. What is it? Uh, Long Beach. Um, and so that was really cool, you know. Um, it was a really, really cool space. But when I was there, it was sort of, uh, we had everyone. It was the first time we all sort of got back together as a crew, and it was just, it was crazy to see it all sort of come together and go, and shit, is this really one I want to be a part of? And when I was there, I met Jerry Lorenzo, Ronnie Faye, and Virgil. So I met 3 of my idols in the basically the first month or 2 of being there. And what I realised real quick was I didn't have the work to back what I was wanting, the space I was wanting to be in. So you go there and going, if I was only in the US, how incredible to be able to meet all these people. But you're like, I think it's much better to just create amazing work and have them come to you instead of trying to go there and sell yourself to them. Right. And so what I've noticed is, you know, when my, when my, you know, the James Hardens got released and all the sneakers and the stuff I was working on, I was getting people reaching out to me as opposed to it being— you don't need to go to the States to blow up. You just need to create awesome shit here that people come to you like. You know, if you look at, you know, P.E. Nation and what she did, she's living in Sydney and killing it.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: So how do you think that— I think it's quite common to think like that. We need to be in the hustle and bustle. We need to be in New York City.

Tommy: It's also like that scale thing everyone says, like, Australia is not big enough to do X, Y, and Z. Yeah, but that's—

Vince: I'm not saying that, um, not to focus on the international market, but you could do that from here. Yeah, that's the misconception. So when you live in New York. So I mean, like, now that I've lived there, you get a real fresh perspective. Like, I lived in Brooklyn, right? The idea of going to Manhattan was so painful. Really? Yeah. You'd organise all your meetings in one day. So you're like, cool, I'll be in Manhattan next week on Thursday. Let's— and I'd literally have 3, 4 meetings on that one day because that's the only day I go into the city. Like, you're like, dude, you're— it's literally across the water.

Tommy: Yeah, right. It's almost like when you— when I was a kid, we had a pool and we're like, fuck, when we get a pool, we're going to use it every single day. It doesn't matter what the the weather is. And then before you know it, it's like, yeah, mum's yelling at me because I haven't been in the pool in 6 months.

Josh: So did you think you were going to go to the island and Manhattan more than you did?

Tommy: Yeah, for sure.

Vince: You think like, I, I, we chose New York because it was like everyone comes to New York, and so we'd be able to arrange meetings all the time. We'd, you know, LA is an incredible place to be, but it's so big and I'd spend most of my time in traffic. So I was like, this makes a lot of sense, I can get around easily. But what you find is that like a lot of— if you live in Brooklyn particularly, like people don't go to Manhattan and a lot of Manhattan people don't go to Brooklyn. So yeah, you build this in your head that it would be so easy and then like the States is massive, right? And so a lot of the time we're on conference calls between here and LA or we're doing something with San Francisco, we're doing something with Seattle. Like, you know, when I was launching with Rolly, we had customers all over the country, all collaborators. And it's like, so you're not actually seeing them anyway. Yeah, yeah, right. You may as well do that. Like, if you really, really want to do this from here, just change, change your working hours.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Is it almost like a brand perception as well? Like, what do, what do you think about when you think of personal brand?

Vince: Yeah, I think you can be international and just go, like, if you, if, if I committed, and this is what I hope to do, is I'll just go, I'm going to be in New York and LA every single quarter. So you just book all your meetings in that time frame.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: And I think, I think you almost need to do that actually if you want to really be relevant globally. And you know, you might pick Europe and the US, but if you, if you set a time that you're always there, then people know to book those meetings in those times. And from a personal brand perspective, it really definitely helps being global. Like when you talk about just being in Australia, like they switch off mentally also. Yeah, because it's like, it's too hard.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: The, um, we had an experience where with, with LA, we decided to go down the route of getting media visas, which we straight away regretted because we had all this, like, you— we had to go to the US consulate and all that sort of thing.

Josh: Yeah, it's a bloody process.

Tommy: Yeah. But I can only imagine the process that you went through with yours. What was, what was that all like?

Vince: Yeah, so I got an O-1, uh, which I love.

Josh: You can say you're exceptionally talented.

Vince: No, I just, I don't like saying it, but it's like, I'm like, oh, that's so cool. Alien with Extraordinary Talents. Oh, really? Uh, and, uh, yeah, it was, um, I was very lucky because the— when I got my O-1, it was done through the TV show, and so they did everything for me. But, um, I had to give them a lot of stuff. Like, they obviously wanted, like, all press clippings. You had to prove that you were the best-placed person to basically be there, and you're an expert in your industry.

Tommy: Do you remember the, like, the US, like, going to the consulate Did you have to do all that and have an appointment?

Vince: Yeah, of course. Actually. So before the show, when they— when you fly up, they fly you up a week early and you're in solitude for a week, so you can't talk to anyone. And it's basically to mess you up. Yeah.

Tommy: So fucked up. The whole thing is just pretty outrageous. Yeah.

Josh: I mean, we did do it to Mr. 97 when he first started working with us.

Vince: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I mean, but that's called onboarding. And so, um, yeah, so you got there a week— how long do you say?

Vince: I was lucky. So it's normally everyone gets there a week early. I was the only one, I think it was me and one other person actually, where we had issues with our visa. Like everything was left sort of not to the last moment, but they make everything difficult. And so I got my visa, uh, after like going and doing two appointments, and it was painful, like it really was. But I was lucky that they did most of it.

Josh: Yeah.

Vince: But the painful part was like, they're like, if you're not here in a day's time, like, you're not in the show. Oh well, right? So I was already confirmed to get in, but I had no visa. So I like, they expedited the whole thing for me, and then I flew out. The day I landed, I did my interview with the whole executive board, and then the next morning they're like, you're in. Wow. So, and like, there were some people that spent a whole week there and got sent home.

Tommy: I know.

Vince: So it was about 4 people.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Auditions are horrible, like all that kind of stuff. Yeah, like, because it's, it's— you could, you could easily identify that it's like, I'm not actually just right for that. So it's not about me and who I am, it's just that I'm not a right fit.

Tommy: Yeah, but you're also seeing the opportunities when you've got Dwayne saying like, man, you got to be ready for like, fucking brace yourself.

Vince: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: But you don't know which way, you don't know which way it's potentially going to go.

Vince: You're going home.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah, earlier you said, uh, the partnership you had when you had Rolee happening, but you're working with that other company and you said they were selling shoes and I was trying to build a brand, trying to build a brand.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: What's the distinction there between what you do and what they were on a mission to do?

Vince: Um, well, one's short-term and one's long-term, right? And so if you're just focusing on selling shoes, that's easy to do. Right? Copy everyone else, put your own logo on it. Or if you have your own brand and your own shoe that you've done, flog it and sell it to any— anyone who's wanting to take it. Do deals and don't care about where it's being placed and who you're selling to.

Tommy: What's the biggest compromise that most brands or people selling shoes make?

Vince: Um, I mean, most businesses fail in the first 3 years, right? So what generally happens is the first year you're spending so much time on building relationships and you've got this— you're so buzzed, you've got this awesome idea that you think is awesome and most other people don't. And it takes a good year to sort of get things in motion. And then by the second year, all of that hard work in the first year starts to pay off. Um, and then generally what happened— the reason why I believe they fail in the second and third year is that by the time you get there, that's where you see all the mistakes that you've made. And so whether you're not commercial enough or whether you haven't factored in that if you miss a delivery or, um, or something goes wrong with your manufacturer, you just can't warrant that cost or loss. And, um, so that's really where it comes down. Whereas for us, um, you know, we were up and running out the gate almost immediately. And that was because, like I said, I'd been in the game for 10 years prior, so I already knew who I could go out to, what customers I could see. It was just a matter of whether they wanted it or not. And with the guys that I was partnered up with, I just knew culturally it wasn't a good fit. So I was like, instead of using your sales team, I'm going to get my own sales team. And that was like— they're tough conversations to have with partners, to go, well, just because you, you have, you know, the ability to sell shoes, it's not the right people. Or I'm not going to use your marketing team because they're not doing cool shit.

Tommy: So what's something outside of selling of the shoes do you think is extremely important?

Vince: Um, you need to have a unique selling proposition, right? You need to mean something. You need to be authentic. You need to genuinely be adding value into people's lives. Like, the way I look at, you know, selling anything is if you really want someone to give up their hard-earned cash, like someone who's literally worked 9 to 5 to make money, to then exchange it for something that you're offering So just add value to their life. Just focus on that. Stop focusing on yourself. Like, I hear so many people like pitching ideas to me or, you know, wanting advice, and they're like, you know, I've got experience in this and I've done this and I've done that. I'm like, you're just talking about yourself. Like, what value are you adding to the people that you're wanting to take their money from? Like, I believe you do the right thing and you have the right values and you're adding value to their life, they'll willingly want to spend the money and give it over and buy into it.

Josh: You think it's something that needs to be known from day one, that value proposition, or is it something that you iterate on and actually evolve into?

Vince: I think you can evolve into— you can adapt and pivot, but you need to, from day one, you need to be thinking about what the value exchange is between you and the customer. If you don't have that, then, you know, you're probably just leveraging, you know, your existing network, and they're just, you know, helping you out because they're friends or family. And like, no one buys something that they don't need.

Josh: Like this guy, man.

Tommy: I did buy a guy. I bought this coin once, which was a dumb purchase, but yeah, it was a coin to remind him that he's gonna die one day. Yeah, but with the whole exchange rate and it worked out to be $75. Yeah, my girlfriend keeps finding it around the house. It's slightly annoying, but it provided you value in maybe storytelling or—

Vince: yeah, you know what I mean?

Josh: Like, mate, don't validate him.

Vince: It's a fucking weird thing to do, but I mean, it is.

Tommy: I ended up in a fucking sales call.

Vince: Where's the coin now?

Tommy: It's on the smart speaker at home, just sitting there on the bedside table.

Vince: So it's kind of balanced the terrible decision that you made. So that's a smart speaker, not so smart decision.

Tommy: And they actually sort of balance each other out. Nice. Socks. How important are socks to a shoe brand?

Vince: Well, we have a thing that we say, no socks, no problem.

Tommy: I like that. I think like I had, uh, what were the shoes, '97, that I had? The woollen ones I gave to you. Uh, the New Zealand company.

Mason: Yeah, made of wool. Allbirds.

Tommy: Allbirds.

Vince: Allbirds. Yeah.

Tommy: So, uh, I don't know what— like, I love, uh, I get into hype. Yep. Uh, I'm not, uh, cool enough to get into Supreme or like shit. Like, I don't have the street cred, but Allbirds was the perfect hype where it's like, that's your, that's your bar. Yeah, that's sort of like from a— if, if I think about it from a market fitting point of view. It was playing into this sort of status of sort of San Francisco Silicon Valley people wearing these things, and it was the New Zealand wool. And also it's this great story, couldn't get them in Australia, so I did this fucking proxy shipping thing.

Vince: So right, like, you went through a bit of effort.

Tommy: Yeah. And then I ended up fucking— I was walking on a beach and the fucking tide came in and the shoes got wet and they were fucked.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: So I gave them to Mr. 97, but they So that was— is that what they were doing using wool and all that sort of thing? Is that something that's super innovative or is it innovation from a marketing perspective? Gimmick? Yeah.

Vince: Yeah. I'm going to go for more the second. I think Allbirds is a unique business. I think what they've done is incredible, right? So they've ticked every box, right? You know, they use an incredible avatar. Well, they did use an incredible agency, you know, Red Antler. They just create incredible experiences. They were like ticking the innovation box, ticking the price point, ticking the branding too. Like it feels very calculated. Whether I think they have longevity or not, you know, I'm yet to sort of be convinced. If they focus on material and product innovation, yeah, sure. But, you know, if you think about like what Toms did, you know, if we're talking about shoes, I mean, Toms is an incredible business model. Yeah. But the shoes don't stack up. Right. And I think Allbirds, they feel incredible when you first put them on. Yeah, but they look like shit.

Tommy: Yeah. 3 months later, they like lose their shape.

Vince: They lose their shape. They— people see people sliding in them all the time. They don't come from a real shoe background. It's just, you know, material science and marketing. Yeah, but not trying to dog them. Like, they've done a really good job.

Tommy: I just find it interesting because there's— there are people who have told the material story.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: To the consumer. So I don't like, you know, you buy normal runners or whatever and there's not outside of like, you know, growing up and you knew that if you had like the fucking gel at the bottom of the shoe that you're going to fucking jump higher. Yeah, of course.

Vince: And so yeah, but it's funny because the reason why you bought it is probably the reason why most people buy them, right? Like they're VC backed and they have so many celebrities and it has a real like attitude attached to it. And so in Brooklyn, like it's not the coolest shoe, but you have cool people wearing it. Yeah. So it's It's funny how they've been able to cut through.

Josh: Um, is that a business play at brand, or is it a company just selling shoes? Are they—

Vince: no, no, it's definitely a brand play. Definitely a brand play. I think product alone, like, if you just sold that product with no marketing, no storytelling, it definitely wouldn't be what it is today.

Tommy: Yeah, because you could imagine the different sort of— if that was, say, made by a farmer, like, you could change the whole storey that you could imagine it being sold at some market.

Vince: Absolutely. It could be a Victorian market shoe and you just would look— we wouldn't look twice at it.

Josh: Yeah. Well, you look at all these Kickstarters that they conjure up an amazing story.

Tommy: Allbirds, I think, started.

Josh: Oh, did they?

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Vince: It's a great video too. Their first video. They knew what they were doing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so the Kickstarter thing, crowdfunding, have you seen it work well within this?

Vince: Yeah, totally. Totally. There's a few brands. There's a kid actually out of Pensau too that did one called— I think the brand was called Cody or something like that, or Cody, you know, he did a really good job too, you know, small infrastructure and he made it work. He's launched his brand through that. I mean, Allbirds is a great example of it. Yeah, I think, I mean, the crowdfunding, I don't know how much more legs it has. Like, it seems to be a bit dated now as a sort of go-to-market strategy. But if you've got a cool product, sure, why not?

Tommy: The Shoe Dog book has become a mainstream read. How was, how was that storey shaped, do you think? The industry, the public perception on what you do, and the interest factor of when you're, you know, at a family event, people asking you questions.

Vince: Yeah, I've got 3 copies of that book. Yeah, uh, they were all gifts. I'm not really good at reading biographies. I'm more of a business book kind of guy. I'm very practical. And, uh, it's a great— I've started reading it. It's a great, great book. I just struggle to get through books like that. I'd rather watch a video, you know, a movie. Give me 2 hours and get on Audible.

Tommy: I listened to the audiobook. It was—

Vince: it was— how long is it? It must be like 14 hours or something.

Tommy: The thing is with audiobooks, I put it on when I go to bed, so I end up missing huge chunks. I fall asleep.

Josh: There is that, um, company that does the sort of— it's like they take the notes. Yeah, and so you can just listen to the best bits of it or something.

Vince: Yeah, yeah. I've had my best mate, uh, he's obsessed with Blinkist, and I pay him out all the time because every time I see him, he's got like this whole cool news, read this book. I'm like, dude, did you take 15 minutes just to read the notes? And he's like, but it's good, he gets a lot out of it. I mean, I should do that. Yeah.

Tommy: What's the, um, value in Melbourne coming back and being here for 3 months? Yeah, we have a big Melbourne audience. Uh, if, uh, if we're speaking to entrepreneurs or people who are just getting started, yeah, and they've got the storey around the US thing or all those sort of limiting storeys or the stuff around are, you know, tall poppy syndrome, all that sort of thing.

Josh: The money.

Tommy: Yeah, money.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: Customer size. What are some of the positive things about being in Melbourne?

Vince: Look, I launched Rolly during a GFC, right? I did it with no real— I didn't do my MBA. Like, you can make shit happen regardless at any time. Like, you just have to find a way. So just do it. I think thinking that you need to be in the States to make stuff happen, that's— it's all a lie. Yeah, right. Like, you could do it from here. You could still focus on the international market. Just do it from here. Like I said, just book regular trips. Um, I will say, like, the one thing, the main, main thing that I've learned is, like, it's not about selling yourself, right? Just create great work and they'll come to you. Like, build up. It's, it's not about, like, what you think you're capable of doing in your head. It's actually what you're putting out into the world. There's so many, like, people that I made that are like, oh, you know, I've got all these cool sketches, but no, it's it's never been made into a shoe, or you've never bought a sticker.

Josh: I think the confusing part is, right, it's like you see some cool designer on Instagram that has a shitload of followers, no business model or business skills behind it. And so we're sold on the entrepreneur who sells himself really well, and we buy into him, but there's nothing behind it.

Vince: Absolutely. Yeah. So how do you bring it into the real world? How do you have a more holistic view? And it's funny, like, I you know, I had a successful brand. Rolly was doing really well. And it wasn't until I, you know, when I started— I worked at the Adidas Brooklyn farm for 6 months, you know.

Tommy: What is that?

Vince: It's Adidas's like innovation creative center. Really cool. The guys from Nike that got sued that went across to Adidas.

Tommy: Okay.

Vince: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's really cool. Like, you know, we'd be in there and I'd rock up and, you know, Alexander Wang's just sitting there sketching and you've got, you know, T.I. and Beyoncé's team coming in. It was, you know, you could get really caught up on the hype of it all. But I'm like, I don't want a photo with you. I want to design with you. I want to work with you. So for me, it— there was a lot of politics and it didn't really serve what I wanted out of it. But, you know, it was, it was an incredible experience. But it's like here we've, we value and look up to international brands so much that people think that I was a successful designer because I worked at Adidas as opposed to going, I've got a successful Rolly brand.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: It's really funny, like I'm making a shitload more money doing ROLI.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: Than working at Adidas. But that's what people value more.

Josh: There's more social status in the, in the attachment to the big brand.

Tommy: Well, RØDE microphones, their logo, they have this sort of like weird sort of thing on the top of the O.

Josh: I did see that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And they cross through the O.

Tommy: And it's basically to make it seem like Scandinavian or like Euro, Euro, but they're a fucking Sydney-based company or the manufacturing.

Vince: Yeah, really?

Josh: Well, manufacturing, one of the greatest Australian brands like that has gone international and they've like, I need—

Tommy: they like buy the manufacturing gear and do like most of the manufacturing in Sydney and stuff. But it's— that is such a clear example, people thinking about brand and then trying to make it look less Australian.

Vince: Yeah, yeah. Like you look at Aesop and you look at some really cool Australian brands that are like, I said, P.E. Nation. I'm a big fan of what she's doing because she's connected to culture, right? And she's doing it from Sydney. I think that that was a real— like I said, meeting my 3 idols in the first month and going, shit, I didn't capitalise off that opportunity because I didn't have— like, yeah, I could show them the stuff I did for James Harden and this and that. It's like, yeah, but they don't want to vibe. They don't want to go, cool, let's hook up and start designing now.

Tommy: And so how did— because Tommy and I were talking about this the other day. We were at an event and we're talking about, oh, did we talk about like most people don't know what we do from a production point of view. And we were debating on the difference between saying it and having to say, oh, we do this thing.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: Versus being noisy enough through just the product itself.

Vince: Exactly.

Tommy: That they don't need— we don't need to do any of the talking.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: Do you think it was that a shift? Was there a time? Because I know having been to conferences and stuff in the US, being at South by and all that sort of thing, there are, there is that style of person, especially like you look at Gary Vee and sort of the tribe that he has. And it's like Q&A session and people like doing their pitch. Like everyone's told that they need their elevator pitch.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: What is the reframing to the elevator pitch based on that idea that it's not about necessarily saying what you do?

Vince: I think the elevator pitch becomes your work, right? And so if you just keep putting work out there, then you're selling yourself through that medium as opposed to, you know, there's— we had a pitch from a design agency a couple of weeks ago who were trying to do our marketing strategy. And it was like, we do, you know, we do UX, we do centred design, we do this. And it was like, none of your slides prove— show me that you do that. Yeah, right. Whereas the next pitch that we worked with the agency, everything they didn't say they had to do, these certain things, but you're like, you already knew they'd do it because they're presenting it. So I think that's sort of more of the mindset. Like, instead of me saying I'm able to do a luxury sneaker line, just make one.

Tommy: Is there certain redundant language? So for instance, within the video production space, yeah, saying high quality video doesn't mean anything because everyone, like the shittest video production company, will say that they're high quality.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: Is it— are there certain phrases like that within the sneaker space, like comfort, or like there's certain words that are just universal that you don't sell on?

Vince: Yeah, I think, um, you know, like I said, the sneaker world and the shoe world are very, very different things. Um, I think the sneaker world is a little bit like, if you're a self-proclaimed sneakerhead, you're not part of the culture.

Tommy: Sure.

Vince: No, like nobody wanted to be called a hipster. Yeah, when you are.

Josh: So just one day you wake up and you have a beard with a— yeah, yeah, very big.

Tommy: I love pushing. I love I am one of the people who says I'm a hipster, being sort of a bit ironic. But yesterday I went to Red Sparrow, the pizza place on Smith Street. It's like all vegan. I'm trying vegetarian because I watched a documentary.

Vince: Yes, I did watch that. I listened to that episode. I'm vegetarian, so I empathise with you.

Tommy: Yeah. So I went to Red Sparrow. It's all vegan. I'm some hipster and shit. But then I said, can I have a Diet Coke, please? And the guy comes down to my level and he says, we don't sell anything that you can buy at Coles. Yeah. Wow. Which I was like, fuck. And then so he had like this fucking cola. So I had that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But it was like $12.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But then I was trying it, but it was, it was the Cappy brand.

Vince: Oh yeah.

Tommy: And I was fucking sure that you could get Cappy on Coles. So he's fucking, I'm trying to find Coles online Cappy.

Josh: So you actually just put it in his face.

Tommy: Yeah, exactly. But then every time time I clicked through to Coles online, it was like not showing up. So I think they only did the sparkling water.

Josh: Yeah, I've seen the coffee sparkling water.

Tommy: Yeah, but, uh, I mean, what do you like with the all the different, um, like the sneakerhead, the— I mean, do you say you're vegan or vego?

Vince: No, I'm definitely vegetarian. I'm not— yeah, sure. My wife's vegan, um, but she hates being called vegan.

Tommy: Oh really?

Vince: She says, yeah, she has a plant diet, uh, what is it, plant-based diet? Yeah, because she wears leather products, and so I get it.

Tommy: Sure.

Vince: It's funny because like vegetarians and vegans, they, they— most of them are doing it for— I mean, they're either doing for animal cruelty, but a lot of them are doing for like, um, to have a, you know, a better world in the environment. But they harp on people that are trying. Yeah, like they make you— if you're like, I'm vegetarian, and you ate meat like once, like, I thought you were vegetarian, and like, hey, it's like, dude, settle down. Yeah, like, I'm on your side. Yeah, not that I eat meat now, but I remember during the transition Uh, it was, it was hard because you end up getting shit on by everyone. Yeah. You know, the meat people are like, oh, why are you doing that? You change. You know, I used to be a fried chicken, hot dog, burger kind of guy.

Tommy: Um, and so what do you eat now? Because I'm at the stage, I weighed myself, I'm fucking on the edge of giving this shit up because I'm like, probably put on a kilo maybe. But I'm thinking that maybe it's because of all the bread that I've been eating. What are you—

Vince: that's surprising. I mean, your legs look really like—

Tommy: I think, yeah, well, it's normally— it actually happens, I think, must be the steps on the way.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: No, I find that fat people tend to have really lean legs because it's like they're doing a leg day every day. Right, right. Seriously. But, um, so yeah, so what do you eat?

Vince: Uh, so I, I wouldn't be vegetarian if it wasn't for my wife. My wife's an awesome cook. Uh, she never used to be. The States made her an awesome cook. Like, I— yeah, the food there, it's very hard to live on that food if you're not from there.

Josh: Salty.

Vince: Yeah, salty. Everything feels like, uh, overprocessed and hormones and everything. Like, it's crazy.

Josh: Pancakes have to come with eggs.

Tommy: Yeah, we think we're so cool when we go there because we always go to Chipotle, which is just so good by McDonald's. Is it?

Josh: Yeah.

Vince: Oh wow. And so it's cool when you find that out, but it's still great actually.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a good product. Like, yeah, you don't skimp on the guac or anything. So what do you, uh, so what do you eat then?

Vince: Uh, so I eat, I like, I'm so— let me be clear, I'm vegetarian. I'm not necessarily healthy vegetarian, right? Like, I don't do it for that reason.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: Uh, So I have like buttermilk oyster mushrooms and I had, you know, I went to the Market Lane and got that mushroom burger the other day that everyone's been raving about. That's really good. But yeah, I like beans, lentils, beans, lentils, black beans.

Tommy: I feel like black beans. Like, I love Mexican food.

Vince: Mexican's great. Yeah. If you're vegetarian, it's like one of the best. I used to when we were in the States, the Israeli food is incredible. So that's where like falafel and eggplant Yeah, great.

Tommy: I love eggplant.

Josh: Hummus.

Tommy: Yeah, hummus. And so the—

Vince: if the old me had listened to this now, I'd be like, this is crazy. So I know I'm coming across right now.

Tommy: How long has it been?

Vince: Uh, 2 years.

Josh: Okay. And you feel better?

Vince: Oh, absolutely. And I actually don't like talking about it too much because I don't like to be a preacher. Yeah.

Josh: Um, well, everyone's on their own journey.

Vince: Yeah, absolutely. And so I don't judge anyone that's not— you know, I'm not that kind of guy.

Tommy: Have you had your blood work done?

Vince: Like, yeah, that's where I actually really saw a huge impact.

Tommy: To what?

Josh: To what specifically?

Vince: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, running a business, there's a lot of stress that comes with that, and the stress shows up in your blood. You may not see it, um, cortisol levels, but yeah, it throws everything off. And so all the inflammation on the inside, like when I went to a vegan or vegetarian— I'm pretty predominant, I mean, I eat a lot of vegan food, to be honest with you. But I'm vegetarian. Um, I had huge improvements in energy, um, predominantly, predominantly energy, and just like not feeling so full. Like, you know, when you're eating meat, you just, you know, like when you finish lunch, how many times have you gone, I want to like sleep? Yeah, that doesn't happen when you're vegetarian.

Tommy: That's why you have the couch here.

Vince: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: But yeah, I also feel that there's so many different things you can do nowadays, and so I do this like weird combo of all of them. So I'm like high carb keto with a bit of intermittent fasting. It's like the fucking absolute nightmare. It's like, okay, today I'm just gonna eat fats, but I've never done it to a longer period.

Vince: Are you doing it by yourself?

Tommy: So my girlfriend, uh, uh, was doing Veggie because we're coming on 2 weeks of the Veggie thing, and she was in Sydney yesterday and she said, um, I slipped up and had a steak.

Josh: Wow.

Tommy: So I mean, that's like on the high end.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: Bit it on the way down. And so like, I've been pretty good. Like, uh, Tommy for Fat Fridays brought all these fucking things which we thought you would think are vegetarian.

Josh: Yeah, I looked up like, what do people think are vegetarian but aren't?

Vince: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so there's like a pumpkin soup that has chicken stock in it.

Vince: Oh, there's—

Josh: oh yeah, his favourite molly's. That's right.

Vince: Well, yeah, gelatin comes from it. Like, yeah, that little bone's crazy, right?

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I mean, this— what I like about— I'm not even doing it, but what I like about it is it's sustainable. It's not a fad diet. It's a lifestyle change that you can do, and it just rules out a bunch of stuff. Yeah, so it's just clear rules.

Tommy: Don't you eat much soy product?

Vince: No, not, not too much.

Tommy: See, that's what I'm trying to avoid.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: And then at the pizza place, my mate was saying, oh, it's like— I'm like, oh, what's the fucking pepperoni? Like, they said it's a pepperoni pizza.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: And they, they actually say like, um, salami, or they say, um, bacon. Like, they don't actually tell you what it is. Yeah. And he's like, oh, it's not like the early 2000s, like faux hot dog or whatever. But then I was eating the pepperoni. I'm like, I just want to know— he keeps saying it's plant-based, it's plant-based.

Vince: I'm like, that doesn't mean it's healthy.

Tommy: Yeah. And so I'm like, does— is that mean plant-based? Are we talking like if they've done something with eggplant to make it taste like pepperoni, I'm on board. But they were like, oh no, it's like soy protein. So yeah, and I don't like— I don't want that sort of shit.

Vince: I did not.

Josh: Did you, uh, I know in New York I've seen a YouTuber, you went and got these like sliders that are veggie or vegan.

Vince: Yeah.

Josh: Did you try any of that stuff?

Vince: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything like, you know, no, like a lot of it they're trying to emulate, like emulate meat, and I just, I don't want any of that, right? Like I'm beyond that point. I started being vegetarian where I was like, I'm gonna do— there was a TED documentary that I saw, or talk, where he's like, just try vegetarian 5 days and do meat on the weekends. And that's like awesome for me. I'm like, I can hang out with my boys and still get steaks and, um, and just during the week I can make my life, my wife's life a bit easier and just eat what she's eating. And I did that for about 3 weeks and then I was like, I don't even want to touch meat anymore.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: And so then I became pescatarian for like a month and then it just gets worse and worse. Like everything all of a sudden, like once you stop eating meat, you're like, oh well, now seafood tastes like meat. And then you're like, now cheese tastes like I'm sucking off a cow's dick. You know, it's like it just gets worse and worse.

Tommy: It's so funny. And because I start to relate point to people because, um, we've had a few people troll me about not having a KeepCup and using like— yeah, I get it. And I— but I get it even more now at how these little things, dumb things, can be triggering. Or, you know, you fucking going through an Insta storey and then you like— this week, like, you see fried chicken, you're like, ah, yucky. You know, you're fucking moving, moving forward. It's like, how— like, yeah. But I do love a good bandwagon. So, um, but I've been doing it for 2 weeks. I haven't—

Vince: yeah, you've got to get through there. It took like 3 months. Once I hit that 3-month mark, I was like— like, I don't look at any of the meat products now and go, I want to eat that. Like, I truly don't.

Tommy: How about sugar? Because this is the thing I said to a friend, um, her father-in-law is like really lean, older guy, and he sort of fluctuates weight, but he's veggie. And I'm like, what does he eat when he's really lean?

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: And she's like, uh, vegetables, like salad, no sugar. Like, I was like, very fucking—

Josh: Have you actually cooked a meal since you've been a vegetarian?

Tommy: Yeah, uh, because he doesn't cook. I had the mango the other day, but that was a whole food. But no, I had, uh, no, no, no, no.

Josh: Yeah, I think that's important, just getting into cooking shit. Like, it's, it's actually the most easy thing to vegetarian— cut some vegetables, put them in a pan.

Tommy: What about like, I was thinking like an Uber Eats for veggos or something. Yeah, that'd be good.

Josh: Yeah, because they are specific, so you're not trying to guess, you're not playing.

Vince: In the States they had a section where it was like vegetarian, and there's like an app called Happy Cow which shows you like all the—

Tommy: oh, that's good.

Vince: Yeah, I think, and my wife's got an Instagram page called Food Thy Medicine, which is all vegetarian and vegan-based foods, and she puts like the recipe there.

Tommy: How long has she been vegan/veggo for?

Vince: Uh, probably 4 years now. So like when she's like, what do you want for dinner? Like, I'll go to Instagram. Like, I want that one.

Tommy: It's like Uber Eats.

Vince: Yeah, it is. For me it is.

Josh: Yeah.

Vince: I'm like, they're not charging that delivery charge.

Tommy: No. Well, that's— they— I don't know if they have had it in the US, but they've got, um, a free delivery carousel now on Uber Eats.

Vince: Oh, cool.

Tommy: So it's like I start preparing lunch, preparing lunch at 11:30, right? And every 4 minutes it updates with, uh, different options that you can like for free delivery. So that's what I've been doing a little bit.

Josh: I see a lot of time here at the office. I know you're releasing a range of vegan rollies in the next couple of weeks.

Vince: Yeah.

Josh: What's— I mean, inspired by your wife? Is it something you've been wanting to do for a while?

Vince: Yeah, I think we just— I don't like to do me-tos. Like, you know, when Tom's came out, I had so many people hit me up and like, can you just like— this is doing really well. Can you do a charity and like, you know, just ride this trend? I'm like, no.

Josh: The shoe for shoe.

Vince: Yeah, shoe for shoe or give away 10%. To a charity. I just don't like doing that. I'm like, how do we own that space? How do we do it so it feels rolly? And if anyone saw the— we did a collaboration with the McGrath Foundation, um, and like we had a shoe where we had women's different types of women's breasts on there. It was called the Titty Committee shoe. I got a lot of press. And, and that just felt genuine, right? And it was connected to breast cancer. And, um, we created a platform where women can tell their stories, and it felt very authentic. And so with vegan, now that it's a trend, um, you know, I'm very careful on how we play in that space. And when I was at Pensoul and, you know, working with Adidas and some of the brands that I've worked with, I've got great connections with some like leading vendors. And so we're using a material called Clarino, which is the same material used in Stella McCartney's like $1,000 shoes. And so it just felt like, cool, it's not a compromise, you know. It actually, if anything, it may even be better than leather. It's it's 4 times stronger, it's breathable.

Josh: Yeah. Um, you want to do it right, you don't want to do it as a reaction.

Vince: Exactly.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What about people who are, uh, wanting to get started, absolutely no network, and they're on Alibaba and they're thinking of doing an order of 200 shoes?

Vince: Yeah, like I would say run.

Tommy: Yeah. Well, yeah, what's the— I mean, how do you get into this, into this game at, you know, you're in, you're living in the burbs, you have no connection.

Vince: Yeah. Um, I mean, starting at Alibaba and doing that, I think you're going to learn the hard way. You know, like, like I said, I'd been in the business for 10 years before launching my brand. So I'd recommend that. I'd recommend working for someone, learning the ropes, um, adding as much value as you can to that business, and then starting your own. I think a lot of people come into businesses and go, I'm only going to do this so I can launch my own brand. They think about like stealing information, and instead of going How do I provide value to that business? Because then you get exposed to a lot more and then ultimately everybody wins, right?

Josh: Do you think that's a— how old are you?

Vince: Uh, 36.

Josh: 36. Um, do you think that's a product of today's environment? Younger people who hear the words of, uh, you know, um, passive income or e-com, because start a shop, you know, I'll get people to buy it, like, and then they don't. So then they go, well, because all you're saying is build some hard skills, dude.

Vince: Yeah, man.

Josh: And actually earn your place, which is an old school approach in my mind.

Tommy: It's the infinite game rather than the finite game. And everyone's like, the finite game is what you were describing with the just selling shoes and just doing all of that sort of stuff, rather than being like, actually, we're on this earth for a chunk of time, might as well like actually go slowly rather than the the constant want for hockey stick growth.

Vince: Add some value to people's lives. Become a master in your craft. Like, I think it's so easy to do things now. Like, you know, people who want to start a business can go, oh, go, go to Alibaba or open up— I'll open up a Shopify site for $29 a month. Opening up a shop on an online store and not doing marketing and having some real online expertise is like opening up a store in the desert and hoping people go there. Yeah, you know, like, it's crazy. But it's just so easy to do now that people think, yeah, I'll just, I'll just set it up. And that's how a lot of people fail.

Tommy: How do you find people to hire? Like, yeah, what are you looking for?

Vince: It's very much around a cultural fit and a mindset, you know, like I'm not trying to build a business that's the leading company in Australia in footwear. I'm trying to go— I don't really aspire to any footwear brands in Australia. I aspire to a global space and go, how do we become a global brand? How do we do stuff that You know, I always say the work that I want to create is how do we create work that I'm proud of, that I'd put my portfolio, right? And so we're still chasing that.

Tommy: What about like the— I guess at the executive level, when you start going sort of the more senior route? Yeah, uh, potentially it's a diff— it's a slightly different game because in one perspective you want them to treat it like it's their own. Yeah, but then a bunch of people who who want to do that would just start their own business. How do you find the entrepreneur that's happy to play the employee-entrepreneur game?

Vince: Um, you got to be flexible. You got to understand what every employee is coming in to do, like, you know, what do they value and play to that. Um, you know, there's certain people that I would love for them to work for me for 5 years and then start their own business. I'll help you, right? There's no point holding back people Um, you know, if that's why I say like focus on— if employees that are looking for jobs, make sure that it's a two-way street. Like a lot of people go, I'm only here for a 9 to 5 and I want to get paid and then I'll do something. If you're here for a 9 to 5, my business is not right for you. And now I don't want you to work beyond 5, but I expect I'm going to be dedicated to you.

Tommy: So true though, isn't it? Because we're like, I think that's the— it's like we want you to be able to have like normal hours and all that sort of thing, but you don't want the person who wants the normal hours working because then it's constantly time checking and playing that game.

Vince: I don't count hours. Like, you know, I've got, um, a big shout out to Deb, my marketing girl. But you know, she, she's got— she's a mother of 3, she's a superwoman, right? Like, she's got so much shit on her mind. But you know, there's days where her kid's sick and she has to work from home, or she's running around. Like, I'm not going to count your hours, I count the output. Yeah, right. So I think, you know, she could— is she capable of starting her own business? Absolutely. A good chunk of my people in my business can. But if they understand what we're trying to create and we do this together, there's a lot of value in that. And if I give them the flexibility and they feel like they're a part of something, it becomes bigger than them. So it becomes, you know, easy for them to buy into the story.

Tommy: To finish up, I'd like you to analyse our shoes and maybe get some feedback on, in regards to our personal brands, where we could go with it. 97, while we do that, can you see if there's any comments or things that you might want to bring up from Instagram.

Josh: But first, firstly, how do you say the brand of Josh's?

Vince: ASICS.

Tommy: Yeah, that's—

Josh: I've been saying it wrong all my life.

Tommy: I appreciate that you did a bit of bogan translation before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: But it is ASICS, is it? I mean, I trust you over myself, but I've just been saying—

Vince: I mean, so I think it's in the States. Yeah, I think it's— I mean, this is the company I worked with. This is the first shoe that we released. Really cool crew.

Tommy: Actually.

Josh: And so the, uh, I always say Asics, and then I've got Adidas over here.

Vince: Okay, you got Adidas. Yeah, I like that you're repping the international. Yeah, well, it's only Americans say Adidas. It really is Adidas.

Tommy: He's an absolute tryhard.

Josh: Yeah, all day I dream about Asics.

Tommy: Yeah. And so, um, in regards to— so the reason I got this shoe was because I, uh, had two— I still have two herniated discs.

Vince: Okay.

Tommy: I want something comfortable that I can walk. I like walking. Walk to and from the office every day. Yeah. And so this is basically like a shoe that people would potentially use if they were running a marathon.

Vince: Yeah, it looks like you've gone for comfort.

Tommy: Yeah, a lot of comfort.

Josh: Um, how many— you've actually got one pair of shoes and that's it?

Tommy: Yeah, so the thing is, like, as in, in, in your entire collection, I went to a party that was, uh, white only, like you had to wear white, like it was a It was actually dumb because it was, um, uh, lawn bowls without shoes.

Josh: Oh, so I went and bought the white shoes.

Tommy: I think I bought these Vans or whatever. Anyway, so they're all clean, but I wear them for one day and I feel like my fucking knee's about to dislocate. So what if I was wanting to look a little cooler? Obviously I wouldn't wear the running shorts, but I'm going— I'm trying to complete the look. Um, what sort of shoe for comfort? Yeah, plus style, should I go?

Vince: Well, I mean, that sounds like a plug because I mean, I'm going to plug my own brand, Rolly, but I mean, I could make you a custom pair of whites.

Tommy: But do you have— well, because what I'm curious about, because I've tried like, um, remember like, uh, Volley, Dunlop?

Vince: Dunlop Volleys?

Tommy: Yeah, used to be like in school, that was the sort of the thing, but they didn't— they would fuck my back because they've got no support. Yeah, on the And so your shoe is light. Yeah, good for like travel. Do you have to compromise? Are there certain people where it's like, actually you need fucking orthotics if you're going to use it, or what's the deal?

Vince: No, I mean, we have removable socks so you can put orthotics in there. Um, I mean, our men's game has been, has been weak, to be honest. So we're actually relaunching men's properly, uh, in about— it'll probably launch, uh, around April.

Tommy: Well, I mean, if it's vegan, vegetarian, right?

Josh: Vegetarian, vegetarian, right? Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Yeah, but I can go into Red Sparrow and look like a boss.

Josh: Um, so I reckon I've got 3 pairs of shoes in total.

Vince: Really?

Josh: Josh is my—

Tommy: you got 2.

Josh: How many pairs of shoes do you actually have at your house?

Tommy: I mean, he was paid in shoes.

Josh: I was paid.

Vince: Yeah, let's keep that in mind. Yeah. Um, I've easily got 150.

Josh: Really? Where are they?

Vince: Uh, like I said, I've got a country house, so.

Josh: Okay. Yeah, yeah, that's why you bought them.

Vince: Yeah. And I gift some to my family.

Tommy: Um, do you have to— you've got to dial in your insurance and shit? For all of that because it burns down.

Mason: Absolutely.

Vince: I've got like, so I've got my like my heat, so I've got like, you know, I don't know, maybe 20, 30 shoes on the rotation that are like special occasion shoes.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: And then I've got my beaters, and then I've got sort of just general stuff that I collect.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so what do you think of, um, Kanye's range that he did, um, that he does?

Tommy: You mean Yeezys?

Vince: The Yeezys? Yeah. I mean, I think the first ones, um, or, you know, or the 350s. And he's done a great job. I mean, Boost is an incredible technology, right? And you— I think you're wearing Boost right now.

Tommy: So what is that technology?

Vince: This, this midsole, I mean, it's so comfortable.

Josh: A real comfy.

Vince: Yeah, yeah. So I think, I think he nailed it, you know. I think he's got to do something new soon because, you know, um, we haven't seen anything lately. It's just been dropping the same shoe in different colorways for for probably 2 years now. Um, but yeah, he's legit. I mean, he won Shoe of the Year a couple years back, you know. It's an incredible shoe.

Tommy: Why aren't there good stylish shoes in 2E?

Josh: What's 2E?

Tommy: Wide. So I feel like the other thing is, I'm like, guys, I got a Foot Locker. I'm like, what have you got in 2E? Well, I've got— Josh, you got the fucking Asics for marathon, or get the Sketches up there. Yeah, I didn't know, like, the, um what do you call it, like the negative connotations of Sketchers until— So I went to, yeah, I went to the US and they do like buy one, get 50% off. And so I went to the States with my mate Naysan, who's not that— He wears polo shirts every day and he's like, man, get up. These are the— He's American. He's like, man, these are the comfiest shoes you can buy. And so I bought like 6 pairs of Sketchers.

Josh: Was this with Kardashian?

Vince: I wouldn't have agreed to do this.

Tommy: But they're like, uh, like it's a—

Josh: like, yeah, I've seen Kardashian.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it fucking— like the memory foam or whatever the fuck they're using is amazing. So if I was— if you had to advise us based on having a wide foot, yeah, and keeping in mind that like, uh, you know, the Converse ones, I tried wearing them as a kid but they're so narrow I'm gonna fucking break my foot.

Vince: Yeah.

Tommy: Are there any cool shoes that are designed for wide feet?

Vince: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the basketball boots are always quite wide, so I'd have to wear basketball shoes. Well, I mean, like, this, this is a— I mean, the Jordan 1s, are they called the 90?

Josh: What?

Tommy: I, I bought some a while ago that I think they had 90s or something.

Vince: 90 or something. The Air Max 90s? Yeah, yeah. That's not these ones. These are the Jordan 1s. Um, yeah, and so they're super expensive game.

Josh: Like, I was looking in Nike the other day, saw these great pair of shoes. I haven't bought a pair of shoes in ages, and I was like, oh fuck, I've got to spend $180. Yeah, just to look cool, but they're not even that functional.

Tommy: So the pricing—

Vince: they always give you like 9 weeks of your life and go on a reality TV show, and then I wish it was for Nike though, but yeah.

Tommy: And so the, um, price of shoes, yeah, has it changed much? Is it getting cheaper and cheaper to make shoes?

Vince: Well, the shoes at retail are getting too cheap. I mean, for the amount of work, you know, once you can be touched by 40 people, you know, there's probably, you know, 20 to 30 components in every single shoe. So the amount of work that goes in shoes relative to the price, you know, is pretty crazy. Yeah, they should be more expensive.

Tommy: Yeah, interesting. And so what's the— is it, uh, bad sort of labour So like, is it accessing like cheap labor? Is that what's happening?

Vince: Yeah, I mean, that's why shoes are still made in, you know, cheaper countries like, you know, China and Vietnam. You know, I think when you look at Italian shoes and people are like, why are they so expensive? It's because, like I said, there's so many components. There's so many— the cost of opening up an outsole, um, you know, it can be anywhere between $5,000 and $20,000. So that's before you've sold a single shoe.

Tommy: What did you say? What is it called? Opening up an outsole?

Vince: Yeah, so to do the tooling for an outsole, if you want to do your own custom design That's why I said the barrier to entry into sneakers to do your own brand is really high. So, um, that's why I say like go out there, get your— build up your networks, build up your technical experience, and then do it. If you're gonna go on Alibaba, anyone can go there and just get an outsole and design a shoe on it. But, you know, design your own soles, um, design your own uppers, go pick all your materials, do all of that.

Tommy: And so if you're, uh, because '97, how much did you pay for your shoes?

Josh: Oh, well, these—

Tommy: yeah, these—

Vince: like, what are you rocking?

Mason: Lacoste, just like white, sort of.

Tommy: Um, you have like $5 shoes the other—

Mason: no, but the problem is they're not breathable, so your feet just smell like shit. Yeah, so, but like, these were like $70, I think, like 30% off on the Iconic.

Tommy: Where was the— what was the shoe brand, the one that was like literally like $10?

Josh: Kmart?

Tommy: Yeah, it was Kmart, wasn't it?

Mason: No, no, it was from The same place you got the hoodies?

Tommy: Was it from there?

Mason: Yeah, it was literally like $10 for a pair of shoes.

Tommy: Yeah. And so, I mean, what's the—

Josh: does 40 people still touch a pair of $10 shoes, or what's happening there?

Vince: In most cases, so cheaper labor.

Josh: This guy funding that shit.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: Well, I think, I mean, we live in a— we live in an over-consume sort of world, right? Like, we overproduce. We don't need the amount of products that we do.

Tommy: It's like, I mean, you got 150 pairs of shoes.

Vince: Yeah, you're right. But the funny thing is, right, like when you think about, uh, the way the design space works, right, there's companies out there designing shoes 8 months in advance hoping that they're gonna design something that you actually want. Yeah, sure, right. And then it goes into a retail store and sits on the shelves until it gets sold. If it doesn't get sold, it then goes on sale. And then someone buys it because it's on sale. Like, you probably wouldn't have bought it if it was at full price.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: So the whole lifestyle is completely broken, right? Like, I'm cool to have 150 pairs, but it's 150 pairs of shoes that I want.

Tommy: Yeah.

Vince: As opposed to going, I bought it because it was cheap. Yeah, right. And I think that that's where, as designers, we need to start to shift the dial and go, how do we start to design with people or with people's insight, uh, a lot earlier in the process so that, you know, we're not designing so far out. And so I think the future is really exciting in the way we can disrupt supply chain models. And like, I don't think everyone should be able to have an opinion on design. Like, you know, there's a lot of people who are not designers. Like, Shoes Are Prayed failed because not everyone wants to design a shoe, but they should be able to have an input. Like, if you've got a wide 2E foot, like, cool, why can't we— why can't you pick any shoe and say, I want it in my size?

Tommy: And why? And so at the moment, that's just because they're like, uh, we would have to do more tooling or something, or that's gonna—

Vince: yeah, yeah, essentially that's the main reason.

Josh: Too expensive. You'd be paying $500 for a pair.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like, um, companies like New Balance or whatever that do it, are they just seeing a gap in the market and saying, yeah, oh, like there's wide feet, we can sort of own that one?

Vince: Yeah, pretty much. Um, yeah, but I think that, you know, as the world starts and the production process starts to evolve, you know, if we can work on 3D printing and, you know, rapid prototyping, and we get in a way where— I'm a big fan of individualization as opposed to customization. So you should be able to buy products that fit you specifically, as opposed to sort of going, I want to change this to a particular color. So I think once that shifts, you know, we're going to be producing less and producing what people want. And I think we're all going to benefit from it.

Tommy: Because I remember Nike, I feel like maybe 15 years ago, had like some crazy flash website where you could pick the colour and you could even embroider the—

Vince: yeah, yeah, ID, Nike ID.

Josh: And so I remember stores in New York, there's one that you can go into. And LA, I know there's one. And they're customizing, taking bits from this shoe and putting it over onto this. Watch this epic video. This sneaker freak, Brendan Schwab— Brendan Sharp is a podcaster in America. He's got probably more shoes than you, and he does the competition.

Vince: Yeah, 150 is not that much.

Josh: He's an absolute freak. But he went into this place where they rip apart a shoe from over there and put it onto this.

Vince: Yeah, sole swaps.

Tommy: It's so cool.

Vince: Yeah, yeah, really cool. Cool. That's a whole different world. Yeah, the customization world. It's really cool what they're doing.

Tommy: That's so cool. Um, 97.

Josh: Oh yeah, sorry, I was just gonna say, just to finish off, I know you'd probably be good at looking at a shoe and saying, oh, that's probably a 12 or 11. Oh, size-wise? Yeah. What do you reckon between Josh and I? Who, um, who's got the bigger foot here?

Vince: Oh, you got the bigger foot.

Josh: Wrong, wrong. Really? We went to the foot—

Vince: oh, you know what, you know why it probably was? It's probably my wife. The huge cushion sofa that's like attached to that bottom of the outsole. Really?

Tommy: That is huge.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I'm a 12.5 and he's an 11.5. Yeah, we got them.

Vince: Did you get them actually? You step on that thing?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, the athlete's foot. But we've actually got, um, wow, we've got, uh, Nathan.

Vince: You know what, it was actually the legs in my face going, just get away from me.

Tommy: Are you surprised how tanned my legs are given?

Josh: But the, um Anyway, Mr. Nice Heels. Yeah, yeah.

Mason: So I was, I was just curious, like you were saying like 40 people have like a hand in sort of producing the shoe. In terms of like the design process, how does that work when you're collaborating with someone else? Like, do you do, you know, the front of the shoe, or does someone take care of the sole, or, uh, it depends like what company you're working for.

Vince: So if you're working for a big company like Nike and Adidas, you've got a creative director that passes on to a design director who then passes it to the brand designer who works with colour materials and a marketing and a PM, right? So that's sort of— but generally the designer itself does the entire sketch. Um, if you're in like an innovation department, then it may— they may work on the actual concept first and the outsole and then work their way up and design uppers for that outsole. Um, but generally it's like a designer that that design something, but then the designer doesn't necessarily get it made. Like, there's a lot of technical people that will go and actually get them made from there.

Tommy: So how much of this stuff—

Vince: yeah, you don't have like a front design designer that goes, I only design the front of this shoe. Yeah, yeah, there are people that design just outsoles though. Absolutely.

Tommy: There's—

Vince: because outsoles is a whole different— like, it's very, very technical.

Tommy: So, and so do you just end up with like these brands Do they just have libraries of all the different bits so they can say, let's take the outer sole of this 2007 thing that we did, yeah, and then put the fucking mesh on the top or some shit?

Vince: And then, yeah, I mean, the most important part of a shoe is the, what they call the last. So if you've gone to a vintage store and you see those wooden things, like, the whole shoe is built around that. So like, when I was at Adidas, they had like 6 lasts that we built off. Essentially the whole entire collection is built off 6 6 last.

Tommy: So they need a wider one is what you're saying for the 2E?

Vince: Yeah, so I would need a slide-in, a full long.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's like a little sort of thing. Yeah, different options. Uh, Vince, mate, thank you for coming on, on the show. It'll be good to get you back in 6 months and get an update on how things are all tracking.

Vince: Yeah, cool. In winter when you're wearing pants.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You should see my— I've only got one pair of jeans.

Josh: Don't give him the excuse. I'm wearing pants today, you're wearing It's Mr. 97.

Tommy: How do you find the temperature in the room, by the way?

Vince: Uh, very good. I was looking for the Nest, the little device, because it's on point.

Tommy: Oh, good. No, we, uh, we, um, appreciate you thought we had a Nest.

Vince: Yeah, very high-tech Silicon Valley over here.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and it always has to be cooler wearing Allbirds. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's The Daily Talk Show. If you've enjoyed the show, leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Uh, you can email us hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Otherwise, have a good one.

Josh: Catch you tomorrow.