0:03
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 425. What's happening, guys? Kylie. Eddie is in the building today. Hello, Kylie and I first met I reckon it was probably, what? Five years ago?

0:17
Five years ago.

0:18
Yeah. Did you also made it because I know.

0:25
I appreciate you coming in saying hello. And it's amazing. I had never met you. But familiar face,

0:31
Carla. Yeah, I think that's the power of social media as well, because I had seen you on Josh as social and I knew you were like, we're here. I can just go and say hi. Yeah.

0:41
And so you and I met at a meetup that you're doing called lean filmmaking. And so you've you started this movement, lean filmmaking.com, which was sort of connecting the startup world and everything that we've learned through that with technology and lean sort of methodology with filmmaking. And I think what was interesting about what you're doing is, you've actually made an indie film, you spent 27 grand on a film?

1:11
Yes, it was micro budget.

1:12
I mean, which is funny, because I think for people who aren't filmmakers, they hear 27 grand, and they're like that that's a lot of money.

1:18
Is it? Money, is it? Yes, it is a lot of money. But when you're making a film, yeah, it is definitely not a feature film. Okay. It is definitely

1:26
not a lot of money. What about if it's your own cash like

1:29
it was? Well, essentially, it was my own cash we dive into a part of the reason why I discovered Lean and Agile is that I really came up in the traditional film industry. I studied film, I worked at Disney Studios, you know how much time and for about five years in marketing and distribution. And I'd always had a passion to make my film and studied screenwriting at MIT. And, you know, did all the things that I was meant to do made a bunch of short films. And I was just obsessed with making a feature film. But unfortunately, I couldn't find any funding and I tried government funding, which essentially in this country, where a cottage industry that is really subsidised by the government cottages that meaning like a small Yeah, very boutique. Yeah. Josh wants to live in a cottage.

2:16
cottage industry sounds good.

2:19
raise money, but not so much fun. And so then I was like, well, it was I was literally on this CUSP. And this is going to age me a little bit maybe. But I was one of the last feature films that was made under the last tech system, which was called the 10. Ba, we just how few films used to get private investment in this country, it's now moved to the producer offset, okay, um, which is a different kind of system. And so essentially, I went around, and I spoke to every single person that I knew, yeah, to raise investors at a $5,000 level, to try and get them to fund the film, and they would get a hundred percent tax break, whatever money so invested.

3:03
Look at this tax thing. I mean, when Tommy and I are extremely scared of asking anyone for money.

3:11
I think it's I think it's just, like, counter to what it feels normal. Right. Like, I don't think a lot of people experienced that. But I definitely think we definitely have. Yeah, I mean, we've only ever with this is our first ask of people to give us money for what we're spending most

3:25
of it. I'm

3:27
just gonna say you're not asking money per set, you're, you're selling a product. Yeah.

3:32
Sorry, just saying give me cash, bro.

3:34
But it does feel just even getting comfortable asking. Yeah, and I guess this is part of the idea as creators now in this new world, and even like when I was raising money in this way, so it was before the cusp of actually of crowdfunding. So crowdfunding platforms didn't exist, they kind of came about maybe 18 months to two years later, in the very first instance, but still would not recognise that, you know, I'm still brand new. So I think just this idea as a creator, if you want to have control of your future, and if you want to have control of what you're producing, it's time to get really fucking comfortable with asking for support, whether that's financial audience attention. And ultimately, people are happy to do that, if you take them on the journey. So for example, the film that I made is one of the few lesbian feature films that has ever been made in this country is a very obscure, you will not be able to find it. How do you

4:35
make a lesbian feature film just say?

4:40
Not like that I was not being a favourite genre.

4:44
I just mean, what is the what's the is having a quarter of?

4:50
Well, just having lesbian characters. So

4:54
obviously, there's a whole the kind of the cinema independent cinema world that I was really interested in drawn to, also was trying to find reflections of myself on screen. Yeah. Which certainly even now, few and far between. So wanting to make queer cinema was really important to me. But trying to fund that was really hard until I tapped into a fantastic niche audience of really rich dykes, who will also wanted to have so I basically ran these, I would have essentially, they were, what you probably call patrons, were there were lesbian couples, who were really supportive of what I was doing. They were working in kind of more corporate jobs that they found kind of boring. And I'm in a really RT job. They've got the money. I've got the fun. Yeah. And they wanted to just be part of the journey and really experienced that. And, you know, so I basically sold before it was really a thing, I guess, I essentially had a bit for investors invested, they could come down to that I started in regional Victoria, I could come down for the day, I had interns taking them around, they got to eat lunch with the crew, which was oh my god, it's the dodgy sandwich. sausage rolls. Loved it. Yeah. And just to be part of that on said, and it's like five k Will Smith, they never made any of that money back. Obviously, they got their tax deduction, the idea was that we would recoup the money and they would be paid back first. Yeah, the film never made

6:27
the tax offset things interesting, because it made it does, I guess, make it a little bit easier to sell in regards, it gives you that one extra thing of what Hi, this is you can you can give value to them in some way, day,

6:42
high income earner. And that is important to you. Because you could buy a piece of art and you can offset your art or you could buy or you can invest in something else. So it's just trying to tap into that much. So you're right.

6:52
So we could do that for the podcast is that?

6:54
Yeah, I'm sure lesbians will be the

7:02
rich people looking to offset?

7:04
Yeah, I mean, I think that if you're going to do it, so I obviously had to legally set it up, I did have a lawyer and we had an like a quite a robust agreement you have to stick to there was a certain amount of investment. Law around it. You can't as a business, just except give that kind of tax break, you have to be set up as a not for profit, or a special status. Or there is also there's a organisation called a bath, which is the Australian business and culture, enterprise. Oh, I'm probably gonna say, yeah, so essentially, that is an organisation that if you're doing a cultural arts product, and you want to raise money, through donations, you can do it through their pebble is essentially crowdfunding without providing any benefit other than the tax. You can no tax donation

8:01
and a few sauce I roles. Here at the daily talk show,

8:06
there's quite a lot of rules and regulations. Just to be fair, yeah. Um, so you do have to Yeah, you do have to be very clear about what the benefits are offering and what that obviously if it's a donation, you actually can't provide any benefits. Otherwise, it's not a donation. Okay. So you actually legally or not, so obviously, my background is also in producing and doing marketing and sponsorship, basically asking for money festival. Yeah. And it's a similar kind of thing where if you're looking to patrons of a festival, if you donate, you can't that whole money is the donation You can't expect reciprocal benefits that have $1 value, IE, tickets opening night. Gorgeous hoodie, but if you buy that separately,

8:48
but if you somehow on your doorstep was that nice hoodie?

8:56
I'm curious, like, So was that a good experience? Then? like did you walk away from that specifically, from the funding point of view? You're currently writing the lean filmmaking book, and we had a read of the first pages that you've written on that. And you talk about how it just fucking broke you that whole experience. But on the the funding thing? Do you look at that as a positive thing?

9:21
I guess I look at the whole experience. And I think this is part of the challenge in independent cinema, and obviously, in other art forms. So up until the point that I've made that I had basically spent 15 years obsessing about making a feature film. So it's going to always be hard to live up to the expectations of what that is going to be and the experience of living through that. And also, because it was very low budget, and kind of a very nice storey, it meant that a lot of that responsibility felt to me, so I am really proud of what I achieved and the team that I worked with and what we all well, we all did. And it was an incredible learning experience. So I have no regrets about that. But it was literally one of the most stressful things I've ever done in my life. And I basically gave up work, like I didn't earn an income for nearly 18 months. Wow. And then of course, the film, I actually took the film. So it was really kind of end to end. So I co wrote the storey with my best friend who also stars in it. And I wrote the script, and then all the way through to producing and directing it. And then I took it to LA and San Francisco for festivals and sold it and I sold it to a distributor in LA for a very small amount of money. And then shortly after, it was not my fault. Yeah, that was no. Anyway, by then I was so exhausted, I just did not give a shit. Yeah. So going through that whole process it for me, it gave me a lot of confidence around, I understand how to do a long form project, I understand what's required from it. And so that was good, but you really and at the end of it, I was really like, I have no money. I have to go to the investors and say you're not getting any money.

11:08
Um, were you prepared for that? At the beginning? Yeah,

11:10
I was, I have to me, I was really open and honest, because I didn't want to raise expectations as well. So that's why I wanted the experience of being part of a film to be enough, even if they never got money back. Um, my lawyer also helped me kind of manage expectations on film business investing in the film, it's very risky.

11:29
I mean, did it make it even harder? Because I guess it like you're starting to add bonuses. Right? So you saying like, okay, not only am I making this film, but now I'm like running some form of theme park where I'm giving an experience a lot.

11:43
Yeah, I mean, so at the end of it, I guess. So I worked. A lot of Yeah, I just worked a lot. Yeah. And at the end, I was really burnt out. I was emotionally burnt out, I was financially bent out my relationship was in pretty dust or rates. And the whole experience, like does I want does not have to be why is it this hard. And it really felt like I had done everything the right way and what had been taught. And yet, it was still a massive fight. And I guess from my perspective, as well, the disappointing thing that I find when I look back on that experience is that no one was knocking down my door for me to get directing gigs, I could not get another job. I could not get my door in my foot in the door and an agency like no one wanted to hire me. And that was pretty devastating. This is your host host host after the film had screamed basically at festivals around the world. Yeah. Um, and I just feel like a lot of that was, maybe I was in the right headspace after I finished because I was pretty, you know, right. Um, but also, I think it is endemic of the film industry, which is pretty sexist, and homophobic. And so I was definitely out of the box, where I feel like, I'm not saying I'm that talented, like you like with people with other equal amounts of talent. Yeah, had other opportunities. And so unfortunately, for me at that time, I was like, Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, God, you didn't interview me, they're

13:18
gonna be more fun. What he was there.

13:20
So I finished that film in 2007. And, yeah, and then pretty much from there, I went straight into, I had to find a job now. And I went to to arts adjacent industry. So I actually, that's when I worked at the Melbourne queer Film Festival, and really helped other filmmakers and also kind of, I guess, use my selling skills. And I would say, for anyone who is comfortable with selling, it's a pretty great way to always have a job because most people don't like

13:47
sales, people always get a job. They're always like,

13:50
I'm sure in commercial radio in, you know, all of these industries, if you are comfortable with selling, so I kind of went into arts through that way and kind of recovered. around these times, I feel like we're coming full circle is around the same time, my brother, who is a software designer, software developer, he was exploring this new way of doing things called Agile software development. And also Eric Reese's book, lean startup came out. And he was really excited by this process that he was working with. And he of course, said,

14:24
You know what, Callie, I just think that was a really dumb way to make you feel you should really be making it this way. And I was like, That's bullshit. And you're talking about,

14:37
I will say, before meeting Josh lean is just what I wanted to be an agile is what you are on the footy field. And then I make Josh and he's working in lanes that I never heard these words before. And then it makes sense, this book, and you're, you know, connexion. I love the approach because it's taking something over from the text spies into an an industry. And it's, it's how we disrupt things, we do things differently. I was listening to a guy talk today about sustainability. And he's on this mission to just chat, you know, change the way that we look at, you know, sustainability. And he's saying we we, we go in and we disrupt the current system, we do it a different way. Because the system, even if it's got some use, it needs to be changed. And so I guess that's why filmmaking is very old, this going to LA and pitch it like this has been happening. Hollywood, this is hot. That's real Hollywood rise.

15:35
And it's actually what we're taught still. Yeah, this country, traditional filmmaking. If you go to film school here, yeah, you will being taught that model of basically. So it's pre production, or essentially, really development, pre production, production, post production distribution. And I guess what I'm suggesting with link filmmaking, and the method that my brother and I have worked on, on applying different methodologies is you actually can do that simultaneously in an iterative manner, but in a smaller minimum, Viable Product version, and test and learn and build from that.

16:08
Tested learn never words I'd used in my very favourite, Josh as well.

16:12
Yeah. whiteboard iterative storytelling, calm.

16:21
Josh and I, when we first met, it was actually for me so refreshing. Because to be able to speak with someone like Josh, his filmmaking, talent is amazing. And he's, you know, he's still in that and to also then understand what agile Lane was such. Yeah, it was, literally, it was so exciting for me, because most filmmakers are like, Well, like I was when I first heard of it, I'm like, well, that's bullshit.

16:46
You don't know what you're talking. And the other thing too, is that everyone uses lean pretty loosely, like agile

16:51
and agile. And

16:52
so that's the thing is, I will count I was coming in with a hearing a couple of jams at a tech company, say lane and say, I'm fucking doing lane, then you have Kylie deconstruct what you're doing and like realise, okay, we're not necessarily there yet. But I think that the thing that resonates with both of us is that lean doesn't mean that it needs to look shit, or cheap. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's, I guess that's one of those things, which is, which is lost that people think when I think of lane, they think that it needs to have a negative impact, where it's like, it's actually a way of creating better better storeys, it's about like, putting the storey and the audience, like, I think the audience being a big part of it as well. ahead. So move faster being lean, you can try things faster, you know, we You can also remove, you can pop the bubble, right, like so like, where, as creators, we, you know, like, think about the time that you spent, you know, in the regional town making a film with, you know, 10 crew, whatever it's like, you can you can create a world and forget the fact that there's actually going to be people who you want to watch it.

18:02
Yeah. And to be fair, this is and I think this is why this is a great opportunity for creators at the moment is back when I did make my film, and we're only talking just over 10 years ago, is so YouTube was in its infancy and twittered in with Donnie just started, Facebook was really new crowdfunding didn't exist. podcasting wasn't genre, like all of these things. Mr. Martin 97

18:23
wasn't

18:31
kidding me was

18:34
seven years old, I had a minecraft server. So it's interesting. So

18:40
there's so much has changed yet. Particularly in filmmaking, we are still really stuck in not using the technology to our advantage. We love gear, and we love tech, and that has compressed the cycle. But we haven't really full about the process of making films. I how we organise the work and who does the work. And as you say, this Hollywood system of how we crew films and the order has actually been around for 100 years. And often when I talk about changing the way we do things is I feel a lot of resistance. And I'm like, you know, just some person came up with this once. And it's not, oh, my God, it came down from on high. And this is how we make films. Sometimes I'm just came up with it, because it was it worked at the time. Yeah. And there's no reason why we can't question that now.

19:23
Is this part of the problem, like companies or organisations like Screen Australia, like you go on to their website to try and fund a film? And it actually fits perfectly with that 100 year model? Like how do we? How do we finance these types of things? So

19:40
yeah, there's a couple of things that come up from that, first of all, the funding organisations are not there to help filmmakers. Step one, they're there to fund cultural product that speaks to something that they can sell to government. So they've got government kind of prerogative around what that needs to be. And that's not to say they're good or bad. And they certainly serve a purpose. Though, I would say that, unfortunately, in this country, once again, because a several I on funding, is that it makes you very stuck is nothing worse than having to fill out a bunch of forms. And often if you're a creative person, that's not to say that you can't fill out forms. But it's a real skill set to be able to fill out a grant application, and then to wait three months. Yeah, and then to go through an interview. And then you get that I mean, like, I've you've already made 400 choice, and the time is taken to have a gronk approved. And so if you're waiting for that it really stifles you creatively, creatively, if you're succeeding in that white, fantastic, this isn't you what we're talking about. But I just find that even for myself, and really, once you're waiting for that money, it's really stifling. So I guess we've linked filmmaking and copy back to what you're talking about the audience, who were we call fans, and sort of what you're wrestling with as well, in terms of how you monetize your podcast, is, how can you as a creative, connect with people who are interested in what you're doing? And so normally, I do a Venn diagram that has, essentially, I'm not saying filmmakers get really scared that it's like, but I have to storey I want to tell them everyone's gonna love it. It's like, well, you might, that's true. But essentially, can we find something that you're really interested in? And then can we find an audience that also intersects with that? And then can we find a way to do that within our constraints. So part of the great way of doing something iterative least you can start really small in a really low fi way. See if you can connect with an audience or fans, and then build from that and apply the production values. When you know that you're going to get a valuable return on it.

21:57
It's giving you the best shot at having any of the please stick. Correct?

22:02
Absolutely.

22:02
Yeah, it's Yeah, I really liked this approach. I mean, I've come from a bit of a school of cowboys. When it comes to filmmaking, I feel like some of the shit Josh has rattled off to me. He's knowledge from the days when cameras were much different. And you had to feed in the core that would play out.

But I think there's the I think, filmmaking, and I think about the kid who picks up the video camera, and them not even feeling like they want to be a filmmaker, because I don't think that like that. rather just think I'm really I make a video. And then it's like trying to work out, I've gone through the period of like, when I stopped following a filmmaker, I want to be a filmmaker. And then I'm just the video guy shooting from the hip. And then I like, and I'm definitely not a video videographer. And so I've just I've gone through these periods. And you know, I've landed on. I'm filmmaker, roadies, whatever it is for me. But I've definitely kind of had differently haven't been a part of that confused space of old school filmmaking, which is, I think, been to my advantage, and you're doing the exact thing of saying, hey, filmmakers, don't get caught up in that shit. Come over here. And this is it.

23:20
And I mean, I think a great practical example of that is YouTube. Yeah, I'm obsessed with YouTube. I love YouTube. I haven't had my freeware TV plugged in for like six years possible. So my bent of minimalism and what can I do less of so I can watch more YouTube essentially premium I do. Soon as it was available.

23:39
I'm the only one. I went off YouTube premium for a week, not the pre roll, actually believe it.

23:47
Because now the content on YouTube, we've

23:51
been on there at brands and certainly creators who have been on the longer long form content is certainly being rewarded. And that means there's multiple, there's a pre roll mid roll. And I mean, if you're watching longer videos, there could be eight ads.

24:03
So I got YouTube premium before the mid roll with it. Like I guess the longer content the middle, and South Side, the first two weeks ago was the first mid roll that ever experience our new video. picks it back out. Yeah.

24:15
So originally, I got a premium because of the premium content of some of the creators. And then I started experiencing without ads, and I'm like, I can never go back. Look if you don't want you to go to YouTube. Yeah, it's probably not valuable to you. But the amount that I watch and I guess because we talking

24:32
to watch it on the TV Do you have

24:35
I do have a smart TV. So sometimes I watch it on TV. Sometimes I watch it on my phone on my tablet. I mean, look, there have been days where like you binge watch Netflix, but I binge watched YouTube, and nothing makes me happier. And finding a creator that I haven't discovered. And I can just see this, like, under 200 videos. is so good. So what was the point about you?

25:00
YouTube?

25:01
I was just curious about YouTube premium. Yeah, cuz I guess I mainly just because I think it's interesting, like the audiences and people willing to like, the what we're willing to do as customers and stuff is really interesting. Like what we're willing to pay for nowadays. I think what they

25:20
pay for to remove ads.

25:21
Yeah. And I wonder what that I mean, Mr. 97, uses an ad blocker. Yeah, yeah. Which

25:27
probably doesn't work on some TV on the TV on Spike TV. Yeah.

25:30
Which I think is interesting, right. And so like, I guess that what I love about you, Kylie is you've got the business side. And the the, the creative side, which I guess when you talk about making that indie film, you're very much in the art of it. And sort of this is a something, it's almost like identity stuff, which I guess, to Tommy's point to is, so much of what filmmaking is is about identity, it's about being the cinema tog refer or bait, like, we get so attached to all of us, I'm

26:03
pretty lucky that I was not really ever attached to that I was attached to the idea of the vision of telling my storey I have not ever been so interested in the tech side of things. Um, but I think this is where YouTube is so fantastic that I love is that really, YouTube is for the most part would never call themselves filmmakers, unless they are an actual list of the Pete McKenna and Casey nice Dad, it's like that kind of crowd. But for most YouTubers, they YouTubers, and they are doing this model that filmmakers could learn so much from are essentially they're putting up a piece of content. They're getting a response that they can actually see through their analytics. When does someone fast forward? When does someone drop off? When does someone start? They can see comments, they can see, subs, they can see likes or dislikes, and then they can iterate and keep building on that exactly what you're kind of doing with your podcast. I mean, you can't do it, you can't think your way out. You can't think your way to 400 episodes. Yeah, you have to do it.

27:02
Yeah, the only Tommy youtubers ever put their hands together to make a Friday. Definitely

27:16
where the square finger thing, but you're definitely

27:19
L shaped with both thumb and index finger, put them together.

27:24
I'm sure that that before and then brought into Photoshop and made the square black and white. So beautiful. I mean, one of the things like talking about going into the analytics, looking at the subscribers, all that sort of thing. What's your thoughts on the algorithm, like so say specifically for YouTube, you could easily using all of that data could be sort of directed into a certain way of creating content?

27:56
Yeah. 100%. And I think, actually, as YouTube has mature, and those that have been on the platform for a long time, there is a lot of that and actually, to be honest. Now if you really want to be a successful YouTuber, and you know, grow your channel, and have a million plus subs and be making your main income from AdSense, which is really hard to do, you really need to be having at least a million views a month to really make any kind of real living from it. And also a very specific type of content. Because obviously, it's now all graded by YouTube, whether it's friendly, family friendly, or, you know, swearing. So yeah, I know that can really affect your, your AdSense money. And so yes, you can go pretty deep into it. Though, I guess the smart YouTubers who are doing it as a full time gig or trying to do it's a full time gig. And certainly like a platform. My podcasting is how do you diversify your income so that you're not relying only on appetising, but you selling, you're selling to a tickets, you're selling a live experience? You've got an online course, you've written a book, you know, it's unfortunately, and I would say with filmmakers as well, the reality is, this is what's happening, musicians have to do it now is what this is just the new reality. People expect content for free. And that's not going to change. And if you want to add value to those people who are prepared to pay for it, then you need to find out what they're really interested in. And I think maybe the minimalists are a great example of these in the so I really love the minimalists. I have followed them from pretty much the beginning. I have bought every single one of their books. I was there at their live to Joshua shooting, and I bought the VIP experience. The hog Yeah.

29:45
I'm sure I've got footage of the wasn't.

30:00
I mean, I think that VIP experience might have $190. So that had a pre show theme. And I and then when the minimalism documentary came out before it was on Netflix, I was their first day because I'm on the EDM on their message. emails, it's launching on Vimeo, I paid $24 to watch the documentary soon as can. That's what you look, that's what we're talking about when fans so audience is very broad. And I think it's easy to go, oh, there's an audience. It's hard to kind of pin that down. But if you're thinking about fans, it's a freemium model. So there's a whole bunch of people who can happily Enjoy your content for free. And then how can you find people who really love what you do and help? And I have absolutely zero qualms and spending money on them. I loved it. I loved all of that. I would do it all again. That's what I wonder

30:49
about the doing it all again, because I was talking to Christian How are someone who's built a fantastic audience, and sort of a community. And the interesting thing that he was saying, he'd heard from from someone that you only get one crack at like from a an online personality thing he'd sort of heard people say, you only get one chance to go out and and make that money from the event. And it's quite hard to get those other ones is that

31:18
Well, look, I think it's once again on the individual. I think he's really great. And Tanya Hennessy, I think, is another fantastic example of someone who's really trying a whole bunch of different

31:27
diversifying, I guess, yeah.

31:29
And also during the live shows that she's done with Christian, I would, you know, by anything of hers as well, I think there's definitely going to be your audience is going to change with time, right. And sometimes it's going to be more relevant for you then other times. So for me, I guess there are some things that I'm really passionate about, but you do change. I think we were talking about it earlier that we used to be quite obsessed with Gary Vee. And you know, back in the early days, you know, bought all these books, I was really interested now I feel like that doesn't I'm not I've moved on from that. That's not really interesting to me anymore. But he's got a whole new legion of fans. So it's just about continuing to reconnect. I'm not sure there is one shot only. Yeah, that seems pretty sad. To me, the

32:13
audience changes, as you're saying, right. And I and I've always thought about, you know, when someone says, find your way, like work out who your audiences, and I've done some sort of thinking around what it meant, because I was always like, I it's actually really hard to know who your audience is before you have it. But I think the thought behind who it's called your audience bait, who is your audience? Audience I got bogged down in his Bro, I don't have any queued your audience base. So that's when you when you're thinking about Who could it be, it is just breaking down one more barrier that could get you started to start making.

32:55
We are definitely in the film community, very guilty of this kind of I feel like a it's another one of these best buzzwords, find your audience like agile will find your audience that will be the answer. So what we would suggest in lean filmmaking where, what we're talking about, that's what we used to call it audience. And we've since learned that people have that exact same feeling. So that's why we've kind of changed it to fans, and potential fans is what you want to find out from is not traditional kind of demographics, or Where do they live? Or how old they are. But really, you want to find out? Where do they get information? How do they consume what I'm selling? Where do they hang out in real life?

33:35
Will they go for a hug?

33:36
Yes, exactly. That's exactly right. So how and how can I in an authentic way? Connect with them? To see if they're interested in what I'm doing? And can I really, really, you're collaborating. So if I can talk about Lean filmmaking for a second, it's really hard to describe the entire process without kind of going through the steps. So part of this iterative model is that first, first of all, it starts with collaboration. And that's collaboration with a squad of, you know, a small group of people gronk, Scott gronk. Scott petty is a perfect example, really, you have all the skills that are required to make a film. So it's not necessarily about the roles, it's about the skills. And you can work collaboratively to do that. And it's more important to have that than it is to have a script, or to have one suggesting you do this even before you have any of that because as soon as you start having a script shot, shutting down your creativity and your options, then secondly, you want to make sure that you're you investing your storey before production value. So how can you learn about what storey you want to tell what the magic you want to tell? and really get that right, because we do live in this incredible world of technology, with production values are actually the easy part. If you can find the storey and the storey wax, and you have production values, whether necessary, and you have the the audience is interested in that that's fantastic. Really focus on being Fan Fan first, really thinking about like, they're really the boss only in filmmaking, the producer or the director isn't the boss, the audience really is the boss, like you helping to creatively still make decisions, and you still have to make those creative decisions. But ultimately, if you want someone to see your film, you also get to collaborate with them and find out more from them. And finally, you really need to focus on doing over planning, you could have spent a whole year planning out every single episode before you did a single episode of this podcast, we spent five years. And but you actually learn so anytime that you can focus on. For example, I want to know who my I want to know what who my audience is? Well, how can I get something to them really quickly, like a hoodie and see what reaction that has? And then how can I learn and build from there. And then finally, in filmmaking, we pull this all together, it's a make screen adjust cycle. So essentially, you make a short version of the full version of the film in the lowest fi available at the time, you screen it towards your potential fans, then you make adjustments based on that on what did you learn? And then choose together what you want how you want to move the needle? And then you repeat the whole cycle again? Yeah.

36:16
I think it's, it's exactly to the point of how we've done the daily talk show exactly. Because we start you know, we started with two USB microphones into a laptop. And then, you know, we we started doing video and all that sort of thing. And

36:29
now it's very fancy. But the

36:34
I think the team stuff is really interesting. I mean, when when you made the indie film, what was your relationship with teamwork?

36:43
Well, I mean, you mean, my when I made the feature, so I was super traditional, because it wasn't, it wasn't really talked about. I mean, it was just a more scaled back version of Hollywood. So I had followed the advice where essentially, it was two characters in one location. And I had a crew of, of I think it was 13 plus two cast members. I mean, seriously, that is ridiculous. I mean, I would literally shoot that by myself now. And maybe have a boom operator. And I just think that you get really trapped in Well, we have to have a script supervisor, we have to have a, you know, whole grip department. And it's actually we're so lucky that actually now the cameras are so great. And I mean, the crime was could have been great. I just I actually need that if you're really clear about I don't have to do everything right in

37:37
the first guy. It's a performance, it becomes a performance on set. So you end up like, what is this segment to look like? Oh, well, we need to have this person I need this. I need to say action and all. Even those that even saying action and stuff like that? I find really interesting. Yeah. Because it's a lot of the terminology that's used in filmmaking. We don't use at all when we're doing a production because they like what is more confronting for, for someone to say, actually, especially you're trying to get authentic performance. If you or even authentic, you know, just on screen personality, or someone just talking being themselves saying cameras rolling and sound and all that. Yeah, way to make it a far away from a fucking conversation can possibly get. And so I guess that's an interesting thing to which is Yeah, lane can also mean, getting closer to an authentic experience.

38:32
So part of rethinking and deconstructing the entire web making films is I always felt on set that is really stressful. It's not it's very hierarchical. People think that that's where films are made on set. But actually films are just really executed on set. And it's the least creative place ever. Most people hate it. And it's really boring. And then moments of frenetic activity where you have to be perfect. So sit around waiting for the lights to be set for two hours. Okay, it says right, like, actually be perfect. Yeah. Okay, stop, don't be perfect for another two hours, come back and be perfect. And the whole and it's long hours, and it's stressful, and you want to get really one shot at it. So I guess part of what no only works in a very specific way. What we're really trying to do with lean filmmaking is how can we actually make the process more creative, and less like that, so it's not huge, big risks, huge big overmighty. On the day, you've got 100 crew standing around looking at you how you supposed to make a creative decision, and have all the answers. So really, that's where you strip it all back. You take it really small, the days can be really short. If he doesn't, whoever shows up shows up. You know, RLDP hasn't shown up today. I'll just shoot it on my phone. Yeah. And the next time they come was

39:58
the project. What's that

40:00
I heard an actor talk recently about his experience working on a film where script obviously written before you get there, when they went off, and they had so much fun ad libbing, and they didn't use a single tag with our ad libbing without having the most fun. Because it wouldn't cut because it's like a instruction manual for a piece of IKEA furniture. We checked in a few better instructions. But we have to get it gone. Because back then we worked out exactly how this has to be done. Yeah. Which you've put. So I like that you. Have you just reordered some steps that make a lot more sense in the process. I mean, there's a lot more to it than that. But some of these things, right? It just sounds like you've put them in such a better order and sort of thrown out a bunch of the ones that don't really need and stripped back. And now you like those four principles or values that you use?

40:54
Yes, I guess big picture, the values that I talked about that collaboration and storey before production values and fan focused and doing is there are so many decisions that you make when you're doing a creative project. And you're making a film so many moving parts, that you can't have an answer for everything. But rather, you can have guiding principles, so that if you get stuck in this whole hour obsessing about the script, or the storey, we're in it. And that feels actually like a safer space, sometimes as a creative to just get stuck talking about it. We go Actually, you know what, let's just try doing this. Let's let's get up on its feet and try this way and try it that way. We have really tried to reevaluate every part of the process. And I guess another interesting example is the way that you cast. So in lean part of the philosophy of lean, which comes, you know, was kind of really started in the late 60s 70s, with Toyota in manufacturing. And it's really about how can you reduce waste? How can you make things more efficient and reduce waste and provide value to the customer? So all those things that you think might be valuable, but add no value to the customer? How can you really make that more efficient. So if we're looking at something like costing is actually a very inefficient process? Well, first of all, you write a script, and you make up characters, and then go try and find actors, you can play those characters that you imagine in your head, and then they have to be available at a certain time. And then you have to construct all of these things to make that happen. What we're suggesting is actually on your squad of your small teammates, to make the film are actors. So actually, your actors are already cast as part of your squad. So to start with, you can start with a really small squad, you know, two actors is great, because it's fantastic to have someone to play off. And then you're writing your script or your storey or your developing it, actually using the skills and actually using who they are, you don't have to cast. And so you're actually creating something that is organic for them. So if they really love improv, well guess what all that improv that you did is not going to be wasted. If they do prefer something that's more structured, where you can write a script. So it's really about trying to use the skills of who's in the squad. And, look, everyone says, it's my storey, I'm so passionate about it, I'm sure we've both seen it is that people can come up with a storey in one day, and get super obsessed with it and really passionate about him, we quickly grab onto ideas, we love ideas, actually, it's much harder finding a team to work with.

43:21
So maybe it's a shift from being a director to being a facilitator,

43:26
I would definitely say it's like a coach or so I guess in the Agile world, it's kind of like a Your servant leader. So really, your job is to solve problems. So and to help coach people to make decisions, you're not making the decision for them. You're part of the decision making process. And it sounds like it's filmmaking by committee. But in fact, it's a much more rigorous way of making a film. So we have a whole bunch of tools for how to do this, that we've completely used the best all from Lean and Agile. So that you can really make decisions in actually a really robust way You can't hide anymore. And I think that's really confronting for a lot of people. Because on set, you can actually really hard it's hierarchy. It's someone else's job. To do that, no problem, not my problem I tried, they didn't listen, oh, well, I'm just going to undermine them by you know, I mean, it happens in happens on all parts of the crew, but particularly with actors, it's like, they didn't like that type of, I'm just going to do this, I'm just going to go and give them one take and fuck up the other takes, because this is how I'm controlling the situation. So that can is trying to remove all of that invisible hierarchy and trying to make all that transparent, so that you can make decisions better together,

44:40
you've probably I mean, had a lot of interactions with filmmakers. And you may have an idea, a general sense of what, what generally people's version of success when they make a film is what um, what do you think it is?

44:56
So this is a pretty big question. In that i think i think it comes back to something we were talking about earlier, is that traditional filmmaking. And while we don't think about the audience, and it's not filmmakers fault, is actually we're taught not to, because actually, our job is as a creative person is to sell to the producer, or to sell to a distributor, or to sell to a studio. So that actually we get our money from selling our idea or our concept to someone else who's going to fund it. And then it's their job to sell it to the audience. So you're actually quite removed from an audience. So our audience is pitches. Yeah.

45:34
And in some ways, when you're making your feature your audience with the people who gave you the five great, absolutely did a film like that. It

45:45
really did. It really felt like that a lot of responsibility. And I guess, traditionally, success is seen as well, I made a gorgeous looking film. I think production values are very highly valued. And it doesn't matter how many people see it, I completed a film, it looks gorgeous. And I'm going to get another job from it. It looks great on my show real. And that's success. Obviously. You don't as you do. If you're interested in telling storeys, obviously you do want people to see it. And you do want to have that experience. But it's so disconnected currently, from the responsibility of that, and there are plenty of people who have made films that have not made money. I mean, films are it's really hard to make money from films anyway. who have gone have a career. So it's, it's actually how successfully Can you raise funding? And how successfully Can you make something look really gorgeous?

46:37
Yeah, I mean, this is the classic case of being pushed someone else's version of success onto us. And we can look to the left and feel like I want that success, but it's actually not all we want. And then it's not the steps that they took, it doesn't actually equate to success. What do you think like YouTube is these young people because I think they have a different version of success seriously, like you said, and also

47:01
young YouTubers. Yeah. I think the thing that I love once again, why I love YouTube, is because it is redefining success. Like, obviously now, just down nature that we want to make everything into a job and kind of it doesn't Seth Godin say like, marketers screw up everything.

47:20
No, yeah, no, he says that an awesome play on saying like, everything has to be a side hustle. Yeah. Have a hobby,

47:26
a hobby. And so but I do feel like the relationship and it sucks. And so I often find it really interesting. When I'm talking to people from both of those worlds, that often filmmakers are terrified because of how they've been judged on production values, is that they look at YouTube often and go look at this crap production values. I would never produce something like that, because that's how they've been Josh, whereas YouTube is go look at what I don't need production values to tell my storey because I'm connecting with my audience. Those from my cousin wasting all that time. Yeah, it's a very different. It's a completely different attitude. It's a different sport.

48:01
It's almost like watching a game of soccer and saying, why don't I just pick it up with their

48:13
head in their hands? Not and I got it, you had it in hand, because like, I kick it like that. Can't do that. scalar football,

48:23
sports metaphors on the show. I mean,

48:28
I mean, if, if people Google you and they click through to your Instagram account, they'll say that Kali Eddie's account hasn't been that active widely. That's not. And so I'm curious, because I've, I've gone through moments in the past year, I complete social media over time, and what has been your relationship with putting out content on social media?

48:54
Yeah, it's a really interesting one, because I have definitely taken a break the last six months. So I think what happened was when I was running the meetup group, the lean filmmaking Meetup group, which was the largest filmmaking Meetup group in Australia for about four years.

49:08
And

49:09
we hadn't really it was 2700 members in Melbourne, but we also ran one in Perth, so and I also had a day job. And in that space of about three and a half years, I personally ran 50 events, which obviously, I had to do all the marketing, copy all the social. And then I went to my day job, and guess what my day job was marketing festivals and being on Twitter and like, so basically, my professional life and my side hustle. Yeah, we're really deeply engaged with social media. And then a couple of years ago, we decided that we had learned everything that we could from running the meetup group, and we just had to make a really talk, it was a really tough decision. Because honestly, I loved running that group. I met awesome people, I got a lot of personal validation from it. And often the work we're doing is, is really hard. And so it was lovely to get some actual feedback from people. But we just didn't have time. And I really wanted to focus on writing the book, How can we write the book and take the next step, we close the group. And then at the end of last year, I moved away from the festival world to take a bit of a break from that as well. And I just shut down everything. I think I was just really burnt out and tired. I wanted to try something different. So I've been doing a lot of inner work, which probably it could translate to Instagram, I really do enjoy that platform. But I just really wanted to take the time for myself. And I found it actually really lovely. Can I say

50:35
was this around the same time that you stopped listening to Gary be? preaching 100 pieces of content a day where you're relevant?

50:47
So

50:48
we're all irrelevant in this room, guys?

50:54
Not at all. The how much of the thoughts around the link filmmaking in the made up was centred around monetization. Were you thinking about monetization?

51:06
Yeah, we definitely were. I mean, in the first instance, when we were running the group, our motivation for doing that was, I mean, first of all, we started it. So I guess it was about maybe seven years ago, we, and it was maybe six years ago, what we're really active is these things we're talking about, even now, they really cool, but six years ago, it was really, really, really, I literally had filmmakers yelling at me. If I had tomatoes, I would have thrown them at me like it was really full on

51:35
filmmakers have babies.

51:39
Every single objection to this process, I have had it for years. Yeah, and now I've got just a lot better. And people actually more interesting now. Because I feel like we're kind of in the whole movement has kind of got a little bit more prominence. And everyone likes to throw around the word agile.

51:53
You love push back to like you, too.

52:01
Like, um, you know, it's great to have an alternative perspective. Yeah. And I had been to so many filmmaking panels, for example, where everyone wants government funding, essentially. And so everyone's very polite, because no one wants to fuck off the industry that they're basically getting their bread and butter from. And when you say, Well, I don't want that I don't need that. It was really liberating. And so it's really exciting to be the person who is dissenting. I find that really fun. So you're I do quite, quite like that. So I've heard it all what was point where we

52:34
were, I think, like the, the monitor the monitor.

52:38
So in our first instance, thank you, you know, first instance, we were just like, no one's interested in these. Can we get people interested? Will they come to the next meetup? Can we talk about this, we tried selling workshops, and with mixed success. And we just felt because we've got some we're really kind of trying to prove something so difficult for people to wrap their brains around the ease has been super hard monetize. And I guess the last stroll for me around the time when I'm like localising The group was we ran a accelerator programme for filmmakers to make a develop feature films in three months around the day jobs. And we did that. And then I tried to sell that. And I could not get a single filmmaker to fork over the cash. And that's when I'm like, you know what, we've got to rethink this. And now I'm really like, well, the way we're going to monetize it now is, let's go back to old school, I'm going to write a book. People expect to learn things in books, I love books, obviously, books, not going to make any money. But hopefully the book will then lead to you know, we're looking at doing online courses, or actually doing training programmes, like that's the next step that we're going to try and test once again. We're not sure it's going to work, but we're gonna that's what we're going to be trying next.

53:50
I think that's interesting around like, when you're picking your fans or your audience. I mean, how important is that working out whether it makers filmmakers, like especially in Independence, they've got no money?

54:02
Well, here's the thing. Yeah, they have money for a nice camera. Yeah. So and they do have money for some training. And I do have money for things that they do care about. So how do we make this something that they care about? or potentially, which is the other direction that we're exploring is how do we take what we've learned, and actually do it more for corporate audience? So really introducing creativity to a corporate audience? So this year, we spoke at the Agile Australia conference, which was a really fantastic experience. What was that? Like? It was amazing. It was like, legit, on the stage gronk Why? It was really fun. And my brother and I, my brother is actually based in Perth, so we have to do it remotely. So we were both in the same city. And we just spent the weekend at St. Kilda Film Festival. He came over for that. And we've been presenting to filmmakers, who are obviously our audience, but it is sometimes, like there's a lot of explaining.

55:01
I mean, babies usually.

55:04
But it's super fun, right? But then we go to Australia, and it's completely different because they know what they get. And so they're asking completely different questions where the questions was really exciting. Well, hilariously, at the end of our session, someone asked, and I'll look, my brother could not have been more happy because he's also a bit of a sassy sarcastic bosses. Um, is that someone said, are that all sounds great for independent we kind of use one of the independent films that we did in the accelerator as an example. The How would that work on a hot in a Hollywood film? How would you scale up? My brother was like, Well, remember 10 years ago when we were at this agile conference for the first time, and everyone was like saying, Well, how come how the scale up for enterprise? And yet here we are, I ended up doing.

55:56
Everyone is doing you just quickly explain for my mom at home who I know, she's got no idea what I mean, it still doesn't matter. Yeah, when I say my man.

56:11
I mean, I don't even the thing is that like the it gets used in so many different ways. And there's so many different flavours in some regards that you've you've obviously got Scrum and did like this.

56:23
Well, so what I would say is both of those are tools to use agile. So agile is actually a mindset or philosophy. So similar to our values that we have a link filmmaking, that's what agile is. And actually, if you could probably Google it, that this is called the Agile Manifesto. And it was written by 12 software developers in the nine T's I want to say maybe doesn't one. Thank you. And essentially, it was a bunch of software developers who sat around saying, How can we do software better? The manifesto is really about, it's like people have a process, it's about testing with our customers, it's about making sure that we make small versions so that we can get real feedback. So this list of these 12 principles, and that is actually the foundation of agile. So it's really about iterative, customer focus. Building and learning. People have a process

57:26
that kind of like the key foundations are you think about, like, especially at that time and being in technology, you think about, like, developers just getting in their head, like, you know, obsessing over code, and forgetting that, like someone's going to eventually, you know, have to click a button here or do this or how would that and I guess, it feeds into the UX UI, like all of these different things as well.

57:50
So now, that kind of principle of from Agile software development has been broadened out into agile project management or into other kinds of industries. Obviously, we're trying apply some of that to filmmaking. But I guess it's just yeah, it's really about making sure that always be shipping, always be testing,

58:08
always be connecting with the customer. Where do you think people mostly go wrong? If the businesses are we do agile? What is it what I mean, what's the telltale sign

58:20
for me is that they have a hierarchical structure. And they're in silos. So I'm team being in a collaborative team, it's essential to have all the decision makers on how you're going to be working. And a big part of Agile is the people who are working closest to the product have the deepest understanding of the product. So that's where this kind of, I guess, servant master idea comes in where you're as a boss, you're no longer telling people what to do. You're listening to what the team needs to do to deliver on the outcome. So yes, you choose the outcome. But how the team gets there, that's not really up to you. So as soon as I see an organisation that still has lots of hierarchy, and lots of managers, and you are Yeah, we're really agile, but you just have to fill out this procurement form. Like, I mean, that's a pretty, you're dead in the water pretty much.

59:10
And so what from going back to the social media stuff. So you've taught you took six months off you spending time, from a personal point of view, that sort of internal work? Where are you at the moment in that journey, giving?

59:25
Well, I was a really big step to. Because obviously, we want to walk the talk. And obviously, we believe in it. I mean, I 100% back when my brother first introduced it to me, and I was like, This is bullshit. I'm now fully evangelise. I'm fully, I'm fully embracing. And so when we're writing the book, there's a platform called lean publishing lean pub. And so we're writing the book in the same way where we're basically putting it out there as we ride it so we can learn. It was a really big deal for me to push published on the first 39 pages, like two weeks ago. And, you know, I had been resistant to doing that, because of what that felt like, I'm making a public declaration, I better finish the book, don't actually. And so yeah, so I'm just will at least give it give it a try. So I am feeling like, as we're writing that I will want to engage more on social to talk more about I am interested in maybe having meetups again, re engaging. So I definitely think that's probably going to come with that but running a little you know, running any kind of large projects. It does take a lot of deep thinking work and it's really easy to get distracted, like social stuff on it. So it like it's so distracting and lovely.

1:00:42
So you spending a still spending time looking at people's storeys and doing your system. Yeah,

1:00:46
I am still I try and I'm trying to limit it somewhat. And actually, I preferred it when I was posting a lot because I feel like that was at least a creative outlet. So yeah, I think once again for me more and less consuming

1:01:04
his path.

1:01:05
She's back on the Gary Vee

1:01:09
content.

1:01:11
I know I know exactly what you mean about Gary Vee Nicola coming in and out. I definitely inspired from seeing him. Even if it's just to post one or two more bits of content not your hundred guess. Yeah, if I can get real but yeah, and this is one for you today. One piece of content. Love

1:01:26
it. We'll get that out.

1:01:29
Yeah, we can chop this up.

1:01:35
To do anything for

1:01:37
you next hundred

1:01:38
hosts. They all go out today. And this is bit, one minute, one minute.

1:01:44
How many minutes we have Mr. 9760 or 60 minutes. We just double it we get to get into the second

1:01:52
thing is that it's normally in the middle area. It's in a grey area right like i i raid Cal Newport you no books, you know, deep work or digital minimalism. And then you use all of a sudden you shut everything off and shut everything down. And then, you know, like, I've had the the Gary Vee experience over the years. And I think there's some somewhere in the middle. Yeah, yeah, I remember saying, Tommy and I were looking at doing a documentary started doing research on sort of alcohol consumption in Australia. And this was a couple of years ago before the podcast. And I saw this bell curve based on it was around mental illness is basically saying people who have high consumption of alcohol, and more likely to experience issues around mental health. But then the other interesting thing is people who had no alcohol at all also, were more likely to experience it and something about this middle ground or like fact maybe like I didn't drink it all at that point. And now I'm a five days away kind of guy. Definitely not. But I started going like, you know what, like, maybe maybe these extremes and I'm working in actually making me sick up. Maybe I need to just fucking chill out a bit. Which, which I find hard because for me, some of these things are actual, like me having sugar me opening that floodgate? It just dominoes?

1:03:22
I think what's been really fascinating for me in the last six months is I made an active decision. So I was working in a festival event space, which is, I mean, it's so easy to be a workaholic in that space. Also in the film industry. It's like, Oh, am I workaholic? Because I'm in festivals and film? Or am I in festivals and film? Because I've got like a holiday. And I really wanted to question why I was doing that set some boundaries for myself and really think about what I wanted to be doing. I just couldn't do it in that environment anymore. So that in itself has been a massive shift for me. And what I found is, I just want to be a little bit kinder and gentler to myself and to others. And sometimes that means I'm going to be posting every day. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I listen to podcasts every day, for you know, a month, and then I'm like, I don't want to listen to podcast anymore. I'm going to read a book and then just you know what? That's okay. Yeah. And just, yeah, I get really obsessed with something. Yeah. And I go pretty deep in the night. Moving on. And that's okay. Yeah. So I'm just trying to be a little bit more gentle with myself, let go of the hustle, let go of the grind and just be a little bit more gentle.

1:04:32
Definitely. I mean, what What's your relationship with ambition? Because I think that, for me, what you're saying resonates I think that Tommy would agree that he sees me going so deep on certain things, and can see where he can get unproductive or whatever. But then when I completely remove myself, then I'm like, Am I losing some of that ambition?

1:04:55
Well, I'm not sure if it's MB shamefully I do get I think I'm just recognising that I am a person that if I'm interested in something, I'm going to get pretty obsessed about it and interested in it. And that's okay. And some people like having more generalist kind of skills. And that's also okay. And I'm just not going to give myself a hard time. recognising that if I watch eight hours of YouTube videos about I'm not watching YouTube video, I'm watching YouTube videos about YouTube. You know, it's very meta. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. And I can also let go of that, I guess ambition for me is an I'm probably in a slightly different space in my career. I guess I've never really made just, you know, if you look at my CV is a bit of a all over the place. I was very impressive. Thank you. But I really make decisions based on what is exciting to me at that time, and what can I learn from? And I don't really care about titles, or status, or even money in that kind of way. But I do care deeply about, am I doing something with integrity? Am I doing something that's creatively interesting to me? And I guess with lean filmmaking, as its ongoing, is, is it something that's going to help someone like it helped me? How can I help others? to maybe the film industry is really a tough, tough industry? Like any kind of glamorous industry, it's very competitive. There's got to be a place for it for other people who are like me, who are maybe not driven by those maybe traditional things, and how can I contribute to that?

1:06:31
It's refreshing anything

1:06:35
is going to be an audiobook.

1:06:38
Think about it, like TJ, if you think at the start of the week, yeah, we'd like, you know, we're in a convention centre with 5000 people, and it's 10 x. And it's like, you're not doing enough. And it's like, it's refreshing to know like, there is the the other the other side, what do you what do you think

1:07:00
that you know, the guy, the girl that lives on a farm, that's quit everything and writing this book, and you read? Like the film, like, that's a success. And then you're like, Oh, that sounds appealing to me. And then he the other person that has, these are all just people's version of success, or their articulating what they've experienced, right? And it's like the being into Gary Vee, not being into Gary Vee being into, you know, someone, you know, Seth Godin not being insecure. And we come into these people, and we find them. And they resonated a certain time, you know, I've been to burn a brown for a heap of time, Renee. Yeah, you know, I'm too vulnerable. Now. I gotta go. Tonight. So I think that's where it is, and you're making something for someone at a specific point of the journey.

1:07:52
Yeah, I agree. And I've really let go. I mean, I deeply understand that what we're working on is not for everyone. And that is for very, is for a group of people who are looking for maybe an alternative and a different way of doing things. And that's absolutely okay with me. I also because I guess, I'm really grateful that I discovered minimalism, about the same time that I was kind of making my film. And really, Leo Bartos work is really amazing. And Zen habits and his philosophy on things really had a massive impact on my life. And all of that has definitely fed into this. So I think having once you start living a little bit outside of the norm, and give yourself permission to do things slightly differently, I think it also does give you permission to think about success in your own way. So for example, I haven't I don't own a car. I haven't haven't had a car for six years, actually, around that time, about six years ago, I separated from a long term relationship. And I basically, it was a right time. For me, I had been exploring the middle of minimalism for quite a few years. And I was like, I'm basically letting go of 90% of my possession. So I'm

1:09:05
very literally.

1:09:07
And actually, I've been lived in a hotel for five months, because I was like, I was at the festival. I didn't have time to really even think about that. And I walked out, I didn't have a stick of furniture. I didn't have basically all my belongings in the back of a car. And I'm

1:09:22
40 when this happens

1:09:24
every day, the hotel Well,

1:09:25
where do you live in a hotel? Um, it is well, when the hotel that I lived in, which was a very fancy series hotel, it was the best was the mini bath, right?

1:09:42
Take the minibar out, really, yeah, because I was there for five months. And so you do get included. They do clean your room, make a bed once a week. So fresh towels, fresh linen, and they clean every week. And it was a full self care was the thing. It was like the best thing in terms of self care to be able to just live in a hotel for five,

1:10:05
push back a baby generation.

1:10:11
So I really, I guess what I discovered in living basically, you're living in one room, is it? Well, I really don't need that much. I'm okay with this. And then when I did eventually feel like I was ready to move out and get an apartment. And I had to purchase every single thing from a teaspoon to a bed. I was just very very conscious. Like I didn't buy bookshelves. I didn't buy pots and pans I'd like I just have very and I'm just really clear about what I care about. Yeah, I'm so that has really helped to redefine what success means to me. And what's what's what's important to me.

1:10:44
Did you work in any hacks? You know, like when I'm in a hotel, and I'm walking past the cat where they cleaning up? Just grab a few more coffees or grab a few little biscuits.

1:10:52
I mean, I was obsessed with stockpiling the toilet paper.

1:10:57
I was just like, Oh, my cleaning I better. Yeah, I did have that a lot

1:11:02
of free cookies. You

1:11:05
know, you, obviously because you're when you're living there. So it's a slightly and room service is really easy. When you're obviously living in hotel you just like I used to pay the bill once a month. Right? It's easy to go through a lot of room service.

1:11:22
Credit card was this the hotel thing I just want to speak about. This is an absolute, this is rattled me to the core.

1:11:32
Did you ever boil an egg in the kettle?

1:11:36
So here's the great thing that I told that I stayed in. So it's the black men

1:11:42
series. And so first of all, they they kind of they called artist residencies because they are awesome at marketing. And I'm a sucker for good marketing.

1:11:50
You just have a canvas set up.

1:11:55
So, you know, it's a beautifully artistically creative. BC blackmun's work is around the building and his obsession with Alison Wonderland. So lots of little rabbits everywhere. So it's just a great environment real not real. Like not real. Not real, right? Yeah. It's really cute. It's really great. And the room that I stayed in, it did have a folk kitchen. So there was a full size fridge, it was a stove, there was you know, stove top, and sink. And so basically, it's just like a really basic kind of version of a kitchen. So I did cook on occasion, but he's the thing I guess. I'm just not really interested in cooking.

1:12:34
Yeah, some of that. And

1:12:36
I'm okay with that. Yeah. And so I only need minimal supplies. And even now, I have made a conscious effort to cut out categories of things that I'm not interested in. So for example, baking could not give two shits. So I don't have to have lots of pans and pastry brushes and whiskey things. Whatever

1:12:52
they are. I love the latest cutting out categories. vulcanised August, I should cut out a bunch of categories.

1:13:00
What would you do? Well, yeah, I mean, this you can have faith you without even doing it. Yeah.

1:13:08
Wow. What some categories? What are some kind of Yeah.

1:13:14
So how I looked at it, it was. So you know, baking was a great category for me, because I'm not interested in cooking. I simplified because basically, I just have half a dozen or so recipes that are really easy to make and don't require any special equipment or special spices or anything. So I won't buy a one off spice for something. Yeah, also, I live in the city. And I ate out a lot. And that's more important to me. Yeah. Um, another category I cut out. So we categories nail polish, you might also cut this is like you think about nail polish you're putting on that Polish where you may not, but it has other things like you have to take it off again. And you named out polish remover and you need wives and you know, there's a whole category of things that if you just decided not to wear nail polish, you can cut out that whole category. I don't no longer wear perfume. Um, I read a fantastic book called The case against fragrance by Kate Holden strain author. And the day after reading that I'm like, I'm never wearing perfume ever again. Sorry about the incense. Yes. I do have quite a strong reaction to fragrances, but also just like the fact that I had not ever thought about why I'm still doing deodorant just to be fair. Um, no one is said to my face and I'm stinky. So I don't know that could still happen. Obviously not having a car completely cut out so many awesome things. And I have to worry about petrol or insurance or is the car getting broken into or I'm married up this so many with books, I guess because I do love books, but I really minimise my book. So now I just have one shelf of books and I don't go over that. And then I'll have a Kindle. So I digitise everything. Yeah, basically everything that can be digital, I try to

1:14:54
what about eating out? Do you have rules around? If I'm going to get food I have to sit in at the rest strong like that. Okay, good. Because I just like yeah, cuz I do a fair bit of like, delivery type stuff. And then so I was like, okay, maybe for whatever strict it like at the moment, I'm testing something where I take a photo of everything that I ate.

1:15:16
Yeah, I mean, I have gone through face, I did go into meal prepping pretty hard. Yeah. And now I've backed off on that a bit. So essentially, I currently my system is I bought because I don't have a car either. So I buy my groceries online. I do a big shop maybe once every six weeks. And then I spend five hours making my five recipes that I like, five recipes. That's like spaghetti bolognese and pasta for a while. Yeah. And then I just phrase it good, right. And then my goal is always I love festivals and events. And I love living in the city. So I can tell that I work in an industry where it can really take advantage of that. And that's why I keep the food in the freezer. So if I'm home, great, it's there. If it's not, and suddenly I go all that there's a show. There's a film happening tonight, you want to come to a film and have to worry about any food going off that I just ate out. That's great. Yeah, that's kind of and once again, I have chosen, I'm happily single. I'm also a child free by choice. And so those things also cut out pretty major categories of either Yes, well,

1:16:18
you got a lot of shit when you were kid. Exactly. So that is

1:16:24
real shit. I know she's

1:16:29
talking about films Melbourne International Film Festivals on at the moment. I haven't I haven't been in a few years have there any films that you would recommend going insane.

1:16:38
I would recommend every single person in this country going and seeing the Australian dream. It's the Adam good storey is coming out in cinemas, August 22. And it was the opening night film. They're doing some encore screenings, actually, this weekend. I do not care about the NFL at all.

1:16:59
And pedigree that was cut.

1:17:03
To be fair, that was easy to let go of sporting equipment is another category. I don't need

1:17:14
any of that. So but it is an incredible film because Adam and Stan grant who wrote it is it's not like homework is actually like the brilliant start to a conversation. It's so heartfelt. It's really empathetic, it is really eye opening. And it's really coming from a place of compassion, not from blaming. And actually, to really have tough conversations about systemic racism that we have in this country. This film is an incredible place to start. It is really a gift to Australians and the world. And I've been so I've been going to only nine out of me for probably the last decade. And you know, I mean, it's hard to share Joel, I do not wish it upon anyone, it's tough to get it right. Your low sponsors in the room, you got a lot of you know, the VIP, and digital meaning picking a film that will show that show that night is really hard to programme opening nights, you know, and you know, you want to showcase the festival and it's probably got to be Australian or some connexion. And sometimes there's a lot of polite clapping at the end of films. This year, I have never experienced anything like it. I'm kind of getting chills thinking about it. At the end of the film, it was a moment of silence. And everyone just got off on their face. Applause standing ovation through the entire credits. I have never experienced that at me. And then the lights came up. And so there's like 2400 people in the space experience and no one wanted to stop clapping. The lights are off. And we're like, no motherfucker

1:18:50
was Adam Adam was there.

1:18:53
And they, and it was kind of awkward. But we like we can. Everyone just kind of turned to it. Actually, though, we're about to hundreds of the guests from their family and friends. It was a really incredible vibe, having them there. And everyone's just like, just gonna clap your direction.

1:19:11
Whatever you feel like it just

1:19:14
is really nice. And people didn't want to leave and just yeah, it was really emotional. So please go and say it. Is it a biopic or a taco or a taco. And it really follows I guess, the storey of how, you know, Adams background and how he became a footballer, and then really the racism that he experienced and for people who are into sports and I felt that probably know a lot more about it. For me, it was really interesting to see that perspective of it. And then also, what can we do about it? And what did he do about it? And how can we start a conversation?

1:19:46
We had nothing to do with the NFL for quite some time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing, amazing storey from just hearing a little bit about it now. It's, it's I

1:19:58
highly recommend. Yeah, Kylie, thanks for coming on the show. We should I feel like we need to get you back very soon. Just because we could be talking that you

1:20:07
can bring you in here frozen. Yeah, I'm kind of the category cookies on a

1:20:14
talk show. Hi, the daily talk show.com is the email address on just quickly on the film? Is it like a release? village cinemas and stuff? Are you gonna have to go to special? No,

1:20:24
I think it's going to be abroad. I'm not hundred percent sure. But it's I'm confident it's going to be pretty wide release.

1:20:30
It's got a lot of publicity South yeah, hopefully,

1:20:32
hopefully go see as soon as it comes out. So more people had the opportunity to say

1:20:36
yeah, I'll definitely say it. And, Kylie, we know that you're not posting that much on Instagram, but you do have the link filmmaking.com. If you will put in their email address though. Will they get access to the start of the book or

1:20:48
if you put in your if you sign up to our news, the next time we update it, I'll send out an email and you can get free access to the book.

1:20:56
Awesome. It's another talk show with cinema guys. Hey guys.