Waffle Prank & Echo Chambers

Josh: The Daily Talk Show. Take a shot of apple cider vinegar, it's Fat Friday.

Tommy: You'll need apple cider vinegar after your weekend ahead.

Josh: What does that mean?

Tommy: Just that you have a fat weekend.

Josh: I know I'm gonna be pretty good, I'm gonna be pretty good. What episode number are we?

Mason: Uh, 398.

Josh: 398. You rattled yourself. No, mate, I didn't rattle myself at all, that was brilliant. Did you not like that?

Tommy: Nah, I need my headphone volume down, something's shocking. Okay, someone's turned it up like full blast.

George: I need my headphone volume on. Oh well, this is This is what happens.

Mason: Oh yeah, I don't think I actually plugged Dills in.

Josh: Okay, all right.

Tommy: I reckon we can get away with it for today. I'll take one side off. Happy Fat Friday, Grolsch.

Josh: Is it really that bad?

Tommy: No, it's okay.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Happy Fat Friday, you absolute Grolsch.

Josh: Good to be here. Thank you for having me. And thank you for being here.

Tommy: The episode yesterday with Julian, loved it.

Josh: Yeah, it was so much fun. An hour and 50 minutes, our longest episode ever, I think.

Tommy: It is, it is for sure.

Mason: I think so, yeah.

Tommy: Dills nodding, Dills nodding. Although you can't hear anything.

George: Check the stats last night. You did?

Tommy: Yeah, it is. Um, I mean, you led with the tapioca flour in the title of the video and podcast. No one's going to know what the fuck that means. Was that the idea of it? Because I saw it, I was like, ah, is that a missed opportunity?

Josh: Yeah, well, I was thinking from a search engine optimization point of view, you could have dialled it in. I don't know how many people are searching tapioca flour. Um, yeah, no, but I think it —It got a lot of coverage on the show. Yeah.

Tommy: So I thought we'd give it some more coverage today because the tapioca flour, the backstory is it's an ingredient in some of Josh's favourite waffles. And they come from a cafe called Patch, which a friend of mine used to own. It's now been sold a couple of times since then. Oh, really? 2? Yeah, 2 times. So Tommy sold it, then someone else bought it. But it's all paleo. So they, you know, they do it basically. You have ordered probably $4,000 $20 worth of these waffles. The Showstopper. And I thought today I'll go, I'll actually go and get the Showstoppers for us. The only problem is I get there and have you seen how they make these things?

Josh: I'm guessing they use a waffle iron.

Tommy: Yeah, but they have like a big batch and then they sort of make them and then put them aside.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: There was only one serving left.

Josh: But they can just make more. No, no, no.

Tommy: They were making more, but it takes. The thing is, these aren't like just flour and water and then put them into a fucking machine. They're like pumpkin, whatever, you know, all the shit that's in them, right?

Josh: Tapioca flour. Yeah.

Tommy: Tapioca flour takes time. I've sat there watching them make them before.

Josh: One day, because I could imagine making them. If I could get the recipe on a Sunday, I think it could be great.

Tommy: You'd make them?

Josh: I think it could be a cool Sunday tradition.

Tommy: Well, luckily, because there was one left, but it means that you gronks are going to miss out. But let's have a look.

Josh: That was complete silence from the room.

Tommy: They're very disappointed.

Josh: You can do this. You can do it. Oh, should I mention the hair?

Tommy: Oh, is that a hair? Oh, that's my hair.

Josh: That's your hair.

Tommy: That's my hair. All right. Show it to the camera.

Josh: All right. Show it to the camera. I need to be able to see it too. It's, you know, they've changed their box. Have they? Tommy D was very into the biodegradable. Do a dandruff dab. Yeah, I know.

Tommy: It's, you know what? I told myself to do a dandruff dab. Oh, there they are.

Josh: So it looks very good. The, the one thing I'll say is— can I sniff it? That smells exactly the same. Yeah, that's perfect. The thing I'm interested in trying— I want the guys to try some as well. I think we could half the— we could do quarters of the waffle.

Tommy: I think you have a few bites because this isn't— it's not ideal for Fat Fridays that we don't have a shitload of food because that should be the—

Josh: all right, so, but the great thing about these also is the ice cream that's on it. What is it? Well, it's a coconut ice cream. It's a Koyo brand. The Koyo brand.

Tommy: They look good.

Josh: I'm just getting a little photo here. There was a time where I was just buying the ice cream. I realised that I loved the ice cream and would just have that as well.

Tommy: Alright, just let's just have a bite first and then I reckon we just pass it around. Here we go. I was using knife and fork for waffles. Is that normal? Yes. Yeah. I don't know.

Mason: It's pretty messy if you don't.

Josh: All right, so the thing is they're very dense. It's almost like a cake. Yeah, there we go. All right, I feel like I'm on one of those, um, MasterChef type thing. Here we go.

Tommy: Let's, um, what's the review? Changed owners.

Josh: Man, it's good. It's good. Can I have some? In a sec. Okay, well, just if I have a little bit more in there, I won't have any more. It's, um The other great— like, they put frozen fruit on it. I do see these flower things, which don't bother, don't bother with the flowers. All right, there we go. All right, I'm done. There's maple syrup as well. There's, there's like, um, berries. So you want to try and get the whole—

Tommy: the whole thing is it's like, it's like a healthy version, right?

Josh: Do you reckon? I wonder how— so I was watching the, um, we follow a dietitian, The Savvy Dietitian, I think that's her Instagram handle. The sugar, like normal lollies versus the 25% lower sugar lollies, like 3 calories different. Like, yeah, hardly any difference. I wonder what the difference is calorie-wise on this.

Tommy: Um, well, I'll tell you what, um, there's one thing about these waffles. Patch don't do the showstopper no more. We made these from waffles.

Josh: You actually made these? Well, fuck off.

Tommy: Happy Fat Friday! With the flour? No, we didn't make these. These are packet shitty quality waffles with $2 ice cream and frozen berries. Oh baby, these are the high calorie waffles.

Josh: I never even ate waffles, normal waffles. Yum! I'll tell you what they are dense, Josh. They're very dense, almost like cake-like.

Tommy: It is frozen berries, and I did get the flowers from my mate who's the chef at Patch. I'll tell you the backstory, Dylan, you can polish off those shitty waffles. So you only—

Josh: you could have made more then? Do we have a whole thing of Koyo? We have a—

Tommy: but no, it's not even Koyo, it's shitty vanilla $2 ice cream. So I'll tell you the story. I dropped off Amy this morning.

Josh: Well, because you said before, before on last night, you said, how about I go past Patch? Yeah. And I'll do the Showstopper stuff. You're getting it at 7:30. We're going to press record on the show at 8:30. It's now 8:46.

Tommy: All was going to plan. I dropped off Amy and I went to Patch and I got myself a little coffee. I bumped into the chef that I know there. Who used to work there years ago. And so it was great. I was like, oh mate, fucking doing this thing today on the podcast. We wanted to get the waffles. He's like, we don't do the waffles anymore.

Josh: Well, because it wasn't on Uber Eats, but I thought that must have been just because they really struggled with the transportation of the KoYo ice cream.

Tommy: 2 years they haven't been on the menu. It is actually white.

Josh: Like you can, if you go on to the Uber Eats app, it's whited out.

Tommy: So I was pretty disheartened. I was like, oh, I'm going to call JJ. I wanted to I wanted to have a good Fat Friday. Yeah.

Josh: And also, you know, to be clear, you're not really bumping into— if you go to someone's workplace, it's not really a bump in. You just went to their workplace and you saw them.

Tommy: I went to their workplace. But we have good banter because I had a baby at the same time he and his wife were having a baby. And so we had baby chat, which was lovely. They're expecting a new bub. And so I walked back to the car with a coffee and I thought, fuck, what can I do? I was like, what if I go back in? And get the box, or a box with Patch on it, and some of the flowers. I reckon I could convince Josh that these are the showstopper waffles from Patch.

Josh: I didn't think the frozen strawberry was a bit tough.

Tommy: But I'll have you know that you said, oh, it's great, they do frozen berries. So I called, I came, I came into the office, I was like, deal, here's what's going to happen. And we jumped in the car and we drove down to Woolworths and we searched.

Josh: Did you do that in the car or something, or when did you actually actually make it.

Tommy: Oh yeah, sorry about the ice cream. That was done with my fingers because I didn't have—

Josh: That's fine. Well, yeah, I was like, oh, it's interesting how they do it nowadays. And so I actually thought I got it quite, quite perfect. The funny thing is, I'll tell you where I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed in when you said we made these. I straight away went to, you've got the recipe, this is the best news ever. So that's where I went. But look, this is still really— I mean, I'm super grateful. It was delicious. I mean, the thing that is, these the packet ones that we go past, we walk past?

Tommy: I mean, they were on special. They were $3 and they had come in a packet of 4 Belgian waffles that are full of sugar. They're absolutely fucked, to be honest. But it is Fat Friday, so it is on brand.

Josh: I think the thing was because it'd been a couple of years since I had them, I was like, wow, it does taste a lot sweeter than I remember.

Tommy: I'm so glad I could get you on this one.

Josh: We did also, I put into our Slack channel Yeah. AusBargain.

Tommy: Oh yeah, the, the, the Big Yum, you know, the face of coffee.

Josh: No, so I don't understand the Big Yum. Yeah, the coffee thing. But what is Big Yum?

Tommy: I think Big Yum is their branding. Mr. 97. Big Yum is like the, the coffee, the big size coffee. So maybe there's something around you need to buy coffee and then you get today before 12. Not that this is relevant to anyone watching. You can get a free pie, which I think 3D Deal will be heading over there because we're going to destroy—

Josh: Where is Coles Express around here?

Tommy: Literally diagonally across Pump Road, Trouble Street. And so you can get yourself a pint.

Josh: I mean, so you have to say, what's the word?

Tommy: The code word? Oh, I don't know. Mr.

Josh: Nice Having, can you pull it up? Cheesy. Cheesy. So you've got to go up.

Tommy: Can you just walk up and just don't say another word? Don't say anything else. Cheesy. Can you say it now in your accent? Cheesy. Cheesy.

Josh: I think that's really— because apparently it's connected with a radio station, Triple M. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so, but how many people are actually doing that? Because I saw in the comments some people thought it was a stitch-up, which is a funny idea, setting a code word that doesn't exist.

Tommy: We love a good stitch-up. I want you to stitch me up, Josh. I find it like, I think these are all such low-level stitch-ups. I'm never going to fucking hurt you or embarrass you. I've just got diabetes now. Like, I wouldn't do something that would really rattle you, I don't think. Because I thought about this, I was like, it's such low level. Yeah, it's annoying that we need some form of content for the show.

Josh: So what happened? How many waffles did you get in the pack? 4?

Tommy: 4, but okay, yeah, I don't even want them. What I think we can do is treat ourselves to some breakfast burritos after the show.

Josh: Which— where from?

Tommy: I don't know, I reckon we could find them online.

Josh: Have you been thinking about breakfast burritos since we had Julian on?

Tommy: Yeah, I'm gonna say, Jules, uh, I hope that you're not deaf because I reckon he was wearing these headphones and I don't— and maybe he was too polite to say anything. Really? They're so fucking loud. I think I need to get—

Josh: Can I just switch so I can hear what you're hearing?

Tommy: Um, what's a bit of a mess?

Josh: Oh yeah, talk now. Oh yeah, okay, that is quite loud. It's really loud. This is so much nicer.

Tommy: Where are my headphones anyway? I had a pair down here. Did Mr. 97 come and grab them? I mean, Dill's got a pair. I mean, actually, it's not Blame Monday, so I can't really be going hard.

Josh: He's gonna be fucking deaf. It's too much. Too much. I'm just going to turn it down. Isn't it funny that it takes me to put them on to turn it down?

Tommy: Well, you're closer to the actual little things. Anyway, it's been a good week. It's been a great week. What's been your highlight, 3D Deal?

George: I finally got into dabbling with Premiere Pro. Like, I finally built up the confidence to tackle it because I always thought it was kind of a confusing software and didn't feel confident in it. But put my, put my foot in the ring and tackle on some stuff.

Tommy: This will impress Josh. Should we swap back? Because I can't reach these. This will, I think, be— you'll be—

Josh: your headphones are working too, 3D Dill. You could put them on if you want.

Tommy: When we started this business, not that, not that you— if you don't care about video editing, your headphones work now, it doesn't matter to you. But I used to use a programme called Final Cut Pro, which I started on, and the whole reason I started on it was because it's an extension of iMovie. Uh, because it's like, it's got the same— Apple bought it from somebody else.

Josh: Yes. Oh, that would have been years and years and years.

Tommy: But then they did a full overhaul of the interface.

Josh: Well, the, the overall, the interface, like, yeah. Oh yeah, could I have— it's very admin heavy, guys. You should probably watch the— go to thedailytalkshow.com and watch the, the video. We do film every single episode.

Tommy: So, um, yeah, they did a—

Josh: what? Well, so Final Cut Pro was very similar to Premiere Pro in style for years and years and years. Like, I, I started using Final Cut in 2006. Yeah, I started, but I actually was using Premiere Pro before that in like 2004. Yeah, so it was a certain style. And then in, I think, about 2010, they completely did an overhaul of the software.

Tommy: Yeah, and then I downloaded in 2012 called Final Cut Final Cut X. Final Cut X. Final Cut 10. Yeah. And so I started using that and it was easy and it's a good transition and it's great on Mac computers. It's flawless. It's fast.

Josh: It's, you know, it's great. They have the magnetic timeline so baby can just chuck any footage and it just moves it all across. I think like Duplo.

Tommy: All industries have something where there's a bunch of like professionals that scoff at people who use a certain— I could imagine hairdressers like, oh, you use those scissors? Or, you know, you use that blow dryer? You know, like, couldn't you imagine? It's like, you drive that ute?

Josh: If I was a hairdresser, I'd definitely have one of the Dyson, like, hair dryers. Is there a Dyson hair dryer?

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, they do everything.

Josh: It's so good. It came out about maybe 2 years ago. I've never seen silkier hair. Smooth. What's that from?

Tommy: It's from Return of the Zohan. You know, the—

Josh: You can quote that. I feel like I need to watch that tonight.

Tommy: Yeah, it's so fucking funny. Anyway, the battle in the video space is, oh, you use Final Cut over Premiere Pro. And so there's like, I always didn't give a shit. I was like, you know, it's about the fucking story, bro. It's about the story. It's about the fucking you know, it's not, it's not the, what is it? It's not the tool. Yeah. It's what you do with the tool.

Josh: Which, which makes sense. Which I do agree with. But the thing is that if you're using the tool all the time. Yeah. It can also consider like because they work differently, I think that the way that you interact with it will actually shape the way that you tell stories.

Tommy: Yeah. Don't you think? 100%. But it's also like if you're, if you're making shit videos, and you're using Premiere Pro, it's not Premiere Pro. Yeah, it's your shit skills. Yeah. That you need to increase.

Josh: And so when we started the business, we were both on different platforms. Yeah.

Tommy: Which is very hard. Yeah. I was using Premiere.

Josh: You were using Final Cut. Yeah.

Tommy: Which they don't play. They don't play nicely together. And so there was some pain points there, but I've started using Premiere and I haven't used Final Cut in ages. And it's, it's almost like you see the light.

Josh: But yeah, I don't know whether you're I mean, this is part of the 180, the Tommy Jack. We'll look back at the 180 of Tommy Jackett and one of the, like, coming to the dark side. It's like positive attitude and all of a sudden Premiere Pro, like, which chicken or the egg?

Tommy: So I, I am all for Premiere Pro. Premiere Pro hasn't changed.

Josh: There wasn't a fucking—

Tommy: No, I know, I know, but maybe I've been indoctrinated into, into the circle of Premiere Pro. But I still have the firm belief that it like, what's easier? Do the thing that will have the least amount of barriers to start if you haven't ever used a program. And if you have a Mac computer that's like, you know, before 2014, get Final Cut. It's so much fun. It will just make your life so much easier. I mean, you're very sort of scarred from your early entrance into video life. You, refer to things like fucking tapes in the bin where they've been cut. Like, you have this recall, like I was telling the guys back in the day. So we film this and we take a stick out, we put it into computer, and it's like, it's the footage is there. I love that you call it a stick.

Josh: Memory card. I'm trying to be relatable to people that are imagining like a USB stick on the side of the camera, just like, don't knock the stick.

Tommy: We just take it, drop it in, done. Whereas when Josh first started, he would take his computer, his camera that had a tape in it, and you'd have to play it back for the real duration of the time you filmed.

Josh: And that's not even that old school. Like, there's people who are probably listening who were doing it in like the late '90s where it was like even more ridiculous what you had to do. But the thing that I love, there's a couple of things I want to bring back to editing in 2019 that I've lost along the way. What is it? And one of them is having a TV screen that you can view your footage on. Yeah, because when, when I was editing back in like 2005, you had to have a TV connected to your computer because I was editing for Channel 31, which is like a community station here in, in Melbourne. And you need to make sure that if you didn't like deinterlace something, it would be flickery on the screen. Yeah, shit. Like, so you had to— what you saw on the computer wasn't what you saw on on the TV. And so I would love for us to be able to have all of our edit stations play on a TV.

Tommy: I mean, it's not even playing for TV. We're not trying to see if it's TV ready or if it's like—

Josh: there's an argument that you should eventually— we should have it set up. So I don't even know if this is really— there's software within web design that does it, like for checking responsiveness where you can load a web page and it will go on all of your devices. That's cool. Imagine that. Imagine us pressing play for IGTV. Yeah. And it plays on an iPhone.

Tommy: I think what I love about our combo is that you have that old jaded video guy and I'm of that, what are you talking about? Just take the stick out and put it in. You know, like it's, there is, you see how I see your, the barriers and you see mine, right? It's like, and then it's like meeting in the middle is perfect because your way actually means that we're, we're, we're hitting those boundaries, like making sure that shit's perfect or as close to it.

Josh: Or just make sure that like if you've ever had data loss or whatever, all of a sudden you become a little bit more sort of pedantic about that sort of shit.

Tommy: You make it sound like I don't use protection.

Josh: Well, with my data. Potentially. Maybe you haven't had an STD to know what it feels like.

Tommy: No, I've never had a corrupt disk. Have you ever had an STD? Have you had an STD? No, never. Okay. No, I've been tested.

Josh: When you're single, how often would someone get tested for an STD?

Tommy: Well, if you haven't had sex, probably not worth testing for an STD.

Josh: Um, 97 getting done weekly.

Tommy: They're not STDs, Josh.

Josh: To be sure.

Tommy: Fuck, you're a poor man. That's so offensive. Saying STDs. Mate, it is confronting going to the doctor and saying, have a look at me penis, what's this?

Josh: But you don't even have to do that, can't you just be like, can you just cheque my bloods? Whatever it's like, and then it's like, anything weird? Any chlamydia? What for? Uh, they might be low in iron, but just cheque everything. I mean, it's— yeah, it's scary.

Tommy: Like, you— oh, if you're testing for chlamydia or whatever it is, do you check— test for chlamydia? I think it's blood test or urine sample. Get on that. Either one. Blood test. But they also test— look it up. They also test for AIDS and things like that. And so you're like, oh, fuck. Anyway, nothing's ever happened to me, which is good. It's good for my friends. Some haven't been so lucky. So you were talking about Final Cut Pro and Premiere Pro, which naturally went Yeah, but I was just thinking about how I've become like, I saw someone editing on Final Cut and I was just like, oh yeah, well, you definitely— this person was treating Final Cut exactly like they treat how you use Premiere. Yeah. So I was like, at some point, I think the difference in how I edit now, which it's, it's very systematized, like I know how to structure things and then I can actually go, I'll work on this piece, this piece, this piece, and then slap it together and it's done. Whereas before you used to be like fucking working on 4 different things within the same thing, which is— this is boring for people, but I just thought you might like to know because I hadn't told you yet that I—

Josh: You've converted. Yeah. And 3D Deal has been killing it on Premiere Pro. All the latest snippets have been done by 3D Deal. Thank you for that. So if we get thrown under the bus on Instagram based on content that goes out, it's my fault.

Tommy: It is.

Josh: Well, last night I was like, because I'm trying to— I'm going to slowly I'm starting to disconnect a little bit. Like on the weekend, I'm going to spend less time on my phone.

Tommy: I'm happy with that because the retirement was only how many weeks ago, you know, months ago, and then you've come back onto social media and then—

Josh: Well, you thought that I had— The funny thing is that when I did the social media retirement, you were laughing at me and saying, mate, you're not retired. Yeah, you weren't. But now you see what I'm like now that I'm not retired. You can see the difference.

Tommy: Oh yeah. I mean, it's like a— I mean, I'm comparing you to a, to a junkie. That's fine. But it's like the one that's like, now I'm going through recovery. The person who is in recovery and relapses but then goes back into recovery is doing less heroin than the person who's just a flat-out junkie. And so you, my friend, were in recovery but just dabbling. Yeah. And then going back to your meetings and then dabbling. But now I'm just on the street, you're walking down Victoria Street, just swiping. Swiping. Your disappointment yesterday, we haven't talked about this, but in Australia it was quite fitting yesterday. Julian, who was living in Canada, we got through the deal here. It was the first country that brought in no, like, taking, removing the likes. Visually, and Australia have now implemented it on Instagram.

Josh: Doesn't bother me at all. One interesting note is this shows the sort of junkie I am. Found a loophole.

Tommy: What I did think was it could be like the jelly bean in the jar. You have to guess. Where is it? No, no. The jelly bean in the jar. The guessing the number of jelly beans. And so, you could get a prize. So, it's like on each post, you could even— Stusso wrote in one, he's like, you guys have 36 likes. Well, he knows. He must have to go and— No, no, no, just counted it.

Josh: Yeah, which is not hard.

Tommy: Yeah, I know, but if you want— I mean, people who get thousands, because, because the whole— if you don't know what happens, your account in the back end, you can see the likes, but other people can't see how many likes you got. Yeah.

Josh: So what were you saying? Um, you know what I was saying, like when you posted last night. Yeah. First thing I did was click the others button and just 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Tommy: No way you did it.

Josh: Which is probably because they've set that. No, but I'm just curious. Don't look at me like that, 97. Did you find out the chlamydia answer, by the way?

Mason: It's either a urine test, a swab, or a blood test.

Tommy: Oh yeah, so blood test, swab down the cock-eye. Yeah, I think like just to— How do you know? Because I've Googled. Are you ready?

Josh: Okay, no problem. But you just said yeah, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've all been through it. Um, um, no, but the, the Instagram thing, I mean, what I find interesting is Andre from the— or Dre from the Coconut Crew— is, uh, he was off social media. Yeah, your, uh, your good mate 97, and, uh, he feels like he's come out of retirement the same way I have. I've never seen someone go so full-on. Yeah, trying to get like a junkie that needs his username. Oh, have you seen— have you been following this on Instagram? Yeah, he's, um, have you seen this, TJ?

Tommy: I saw that he posted some bloody heroic message about Instagram have implemented some changes.

Josh: Oh no, no, no, not this one. This was a week ago.

Tommy: Yeah, um, what did he say? Sorry, mate, on the bus, it's all good.

Mason: He wants the username Dre Barber, and so someone, someone else has Dre Barber in, in the US, and he's trying to call him out so he can get the name.

Tommy: Call him out, meaning, oh, just get his attention, message him, that sort of stuff, because your mate's such an influencer and deserves it. Is that right? Yeah.

Mason: Oh, I mean, he just, he just wants the username.

Josh: I mean, I'm guessing the other guy's, in fairness, his name is probably Dre Barber, or his name's Dre and he's a barber. Yeah, yeah. Which I think gives him more use for it than it's a business.

Tommy: Let's say you might also, Andre, mate, you weren't on social media a month ago. You've just come back on. Fucking rich kid.

Josh: Well, I remember I actually deleted Twitter in a retirement, a social media retirement in 2011. I got rid of my Twitter account and then I regretted it straight away. Oh, like when I say straight away, maybe a week later. Yeah. And because I deleted it before removing the username, the username had gone into one of those pools where you couldn't access it. So there was 3 months of me as @JoshuaJanson and all my tweets were just me tweeting Twitter support, being like, hey guys, can you try and relinquish this username? I'd love to access it. I ended up getting it.

Tommy: It worked by doing that. They were thinking, fuck, this guy is so annoying.

Josh: But I mean, that was 2011. I guess heyday of Twitter probably wasn't for another 2 years, maybe a year and a half. But who, like, I was listening to a podcast the other day where they were talking about people being like addicted to the Twitter feed. I just don't find the, I'm not interested.

Tommy: Oh, no. I mean, but your drug of choice is the Instagram feed. Let's do the old, I know we do this quite a bit, but let's just do a quick time spent in our— Apple. You want to go to the gym?

Josh: No, this will, this will Where do you get it again? Well, to be— screen time. To be honest, I'm going to, um, I'm taking a break. Not like a big break. How can we support you? How can we support keeping the Daily Talk Show Instagram chooching?

Tommy: So, so you're saying someone else can fucking use their time? No, no, no, let's all just—

Josh: rather than me spending however many time—

Tommy: how much time I'm spending— okay, let's do last 7 days and then the per day amount of time.

Josh: Okay, I think this will probably blow you away. Okay, so how many hours for the past 7 days?

Tommy: So on the main breakdown, it's 4 hours and 14 minutes per day, with the top most used— and this should impress you, this should make you feel a little bit happy— Instagram was the top used at 10 hours and 50 minutes. I think that's across the week, across 7 days. I think I'm depressed.

Josh: Okay, because 10 hours, that's a lot. That's a fucking lot of time. What's yours, big boy?

Tommy: 4 hours and 42 minutes.

Josh: No, that's per day.

Tommy: No, that's over the last 7 days.

Josh: I'm 2 hours, baby. That's about to change, okay? Because I'm taking a break. Here we go. All right, all right, all right, here we go.

Tommy: Per day, top, top number.

Josh: So per day, top number, like the top number. Yeah, it's only 4 hours and 43 minutes, right? Okay, so a little bit more. It says yes, but Instagram for the last 7 days, because I haven't been feeling very good in the last week.

Tommy: And this could be— meaning what? What do you mean feeling good?

Josh: Just a little bit depressed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna get that exercise in.

Tommy: I've been walking.

Josh: I feel good today. I walked with Peter Sheppen. 18 hours and 27 minutes. Yeah, wow. On Instagram. Too much. The funny thing is the next one down's only 2 hours and 37 minutes, which is Chrome. 57 minutes on messages. I'm terrible at iMessage. People who message— I've got YouTube at 4 hours and 28 minutes.

Tommy: 55 minutes for me.

Josh: And Spotify. It's too much.

Tommy: It's amazing. I mean, yeah, there is definitely a direct correlation between mental health and phone usage. It's full-on. Like, I even find this, doing this show the 7 days, is making me think a lot more. And I'm like getting home and then straight into like I'm trying— I need to cheque myself, constantly checking myself. So I get it. And I've got a distraction, which is a kid. Well, think about it.

Josh: I was saying this to Pete this morning. Normally when you have a bit of an off week, you just like lay low. But the timing, what, like having a podcast? Like what I was— I was listening to an audiobook. What is it? The Power of Radio? What? The Power of Radio? Is that what it is? Yeah, I can't remember. Um, and, um, they talk about all this stuff in there. I'm mainly listening to it as a way of being like How did radio do it? What are we doing? Yeah, we talked earlier in the week trying to get your head around radio. Yeah, exactly. And so one of the things they talk about is don't say that, don't say that you're tired. If you say that you're tired, like, people are listening in because they want to feel great. And when you're tired, it's going to fucking ruin their day.

Tommy: I get that. I know that is something that I thought about when I was on radio.

Josh: But I don't think you can do it with this.

Tommy: Nah, podcasting is different. You get in the ebbs and flows, baby.

Josh: Yeah, well, that's what I'm thinking.

Tommy: Like, the Grunt Squad, you know, sometimes feels a bit tired. Yeah.

Josh: And I guess it's okay. Like, I think that I was reflecting on it. If we're not feeling great or if something's happened, should we— are we— are our audience better off? Are you, the listener, better off hearing that or not hearing that?

Tommy: Making the choice of what's best for the person listening is something you need to think about. But then there's also how you don't want to be masking. Like, I got a fucking splitting headache right now. Yeah, I'm trying to bring my best self. I don't know how much it adds to the convo.

Josh: I'm having a stroke again. My fucking right— my fucking lip. I think this is all the anxiety stuff. You know how I said the other day, what side is it? It's always the right side. Yeah, I'm fine. But sorry to take away from your headache, but I think I was having a stroke.

Tommy: I'm fine. But yeah, so that's why I'm like, it's only when I think it's probably worth mentioning if it's directly impacting the people around you. So if I was in a shit mood but I didn't tell you, I think then it can be a bit of a problem.

Josh: Because then you're just projecting and all. Like, have you guys know what is the telltale sign if I'm not feeling good? Because I haven't necessarily talked about it that much.

Tommy: I'm glad you asked. It's food. If you haven't eaten, you're a fuck. Which I want you to just eat more consistently because I think it's— you actually are more regulated. Yeah. Too much coffee, obviously. Is not good. Not good. Uh, what else, what else, what else? And so this— sometimes you're a bit manic on in, in what you're thinking about, like you're manic to obsessing over this one thing. But telltale sign is you in your phone like this, the procrastination, which we all do. But I know I can tell when you do it. It's my wife too. I know when she's kind of in her head, she's like doing something that's like this mundane thing, right? Because it's like you can be doing that while thinking about the thing you're thinking about, you know?

Josh: What do you guys think? The little things that just trigger you really hard?

Mason: Oh yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying to think of an example over the past few days.

Tommy: It's you right now, you're fucking triggering.

Josh: I mean, it's, it's, it is a piss take, but the static carpet. Oh yeah, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's, it's annoying. Getting fucking shocked, dude.

Tommy: How amazing is it that I haven't been shocked? It's either that or I never touch it.

Josh: Yeah, you're trying to find the stick. Yeah, where do I plug this into? You know, fucking rats have USB, uh, ports now.

Tommy: I mean, humans will at one point have a fucking USB-C import in their brain.

Josh: So Mr. 97, he's the only news source?

Tommy: No, I watched, I watched the whole, uh, you watched the keynote? Yeah, I watched the 17-minute one. It was like the best bits, but then I watched the longer version, which is Elon Musk's company Neuralink which is going to fucking connect people's brains, consciousness, with fucking computers. So you'll be linked with AI. It's crazy. It's so crazy. Like, the shit that they've invented is beyond belief. Like, these little fucking wires that are smaller than a hair that will be injected into your fucking brain by a robot that will get around blood vessels so they can—

Mason: with a laser as well.

Josh: Yeah, and she's gonna get around my folliculitis.

Tommy: Definitely not. They actually won't be able to penetrate your skull. But they have to do it with robots because it's so dangerous and the robot can work out exactly where the blood vessel is.

Josh: Oh, sorry, you're using the robot.

Tommy: The robot is, yeah. So, humans can't do it. It's too fucking meticulous. And they have to factor in things like breathing, heartbeat, changing the position of the brain and where they're penetrating. So, they— that's why robots are the only ones cut out for the job.

Josh: Have you had an MRI before?

Tommy: Nah, I haven't. What is that? It's like a, it's like the dish. Oh, actually, yeah, I have maybe. Yes, I did, because when I got my nose broken, um, it—

Josh: You had to get your nose broken?

Tommy: A guy punched me.

Josh: What did you do?

Tommy: I was gonna say, did you deserve it? I was punching on with his friend and then he came and punched me from behind like a dog.

Josh: Anyway, a king hit. They don't call it a coward punch now?

Tommy: They call it a coward punch. Yeah, it was. Yeah. Anyway, what does that mean?

Josh: Why'd you say they call it a coward punch?

Tommy: It sounded like you said They don't—

Josh: I know why I went to call it king hit, and then I was like, we are changing the language. Yeah, exactly. It's a coward punch. Yeah, it's a—

Tommy: you're a fuckwit punch.

Josh: And so your nose was fine, by the way? Uh, no, it's broken.

Tommy: And I think I, I think I need to get, um, more surgery at some point from a deviated septum, which a lot of fighters get it. I'm now, you know, a lot of UFC guys get it. Joe Rogan had it. No, it's like if you've ever had your nose broken, you can feel but I can't breathe as well out of this nostril. And what happens is up there you can get it sorted and then I'll be able to breathe. Like a lot of fighters, they fucking cannot breathe and they have it done, they're like, how was I alive?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, you're probably more likely to have like sleep apnea. No, I'm good, I'm a good sleeper.

Tommy: It's just this one side, you know. Anyway, notice it? I can notice it. I can just notice like it's more block— more so blocked than the other, but it doesn't— I'm not not in an uncomfortable place.

Josh: Well, the MRIs, you have to stay still. That's what freaks me out, mate.

Tommy: What, staying still for a few seconds? Yeah.

Josh: No, well, when someone says stay still, yeah, it's a lot harder, don't you think?

Tommy: Well, you start, you're consciously trying to identify any movement you make. When someone says stay still, it's very hard. Breathing means you're not still. Yeah. Heartbeat means that you're not still, hence why they're doing the robot thing. But You gotta, yeah, I know you're being more conscious of your body, right?

Josh: Because even there was, uh, Mr. Nice7 was showing me some prototypes of the app, uh, that, what is it called? BrainLink? Neuralink?

Mason: Neuralink.

Tommy: Neuralink is the company, N1 is the first release of this product.

Josh: So Neuralink, uh, they've got a whole app and they're Neuralink, not Neuro. What does Neuro mean? It's like neural. Neuralink. Neuralink. Yeah. What does Neuro mean?

Mason: Neural. It's like your brain. Neural is like you've got neural pathways in your head. Oh, really?

Josh: Yeah. And neuro is because I think of like a neurosurgeon that deals with the brain.

Tommy: Either way. So, you're saying the app.

Josh: The app, it tells you to think about moving your hand left and right as a way of interfacing with the iPhone app. So cool. And so, the funny thing was I was saying to 97, what are you laughing at? No, continue. Uh, I was asking him to do it, and the interesting thing is if you keep your— everyone try it right now. Get your, uh, right hand, just put it down and think about moving it to the left-hand side of your body, moving your hand, but do not move your hand.

Tommy: I'm doing it, I'm doing it.

Josh: You feel your hand tingle? Your right hand tingle? I can feel my hand, but I got the sense that my hand was tingling like it was fucking like my brain was doing something.

Tommy: Yeah, it's really identifying the self. Like, so in meditation, in Sam Harris's app— don't know if you know that I do that app. You do?

Josh: No, it's very— you know what, you are— you should email him and say, and say how well it's worked because you—

Tommy: how about you do it?

Josh: Yeah, I could. I could email and say it's great because the thing is my business partner is doing well. Yeah, my business partner is doing great. And the thing is that you used the free one and you've actually like done it.

Tommy: Oh mate, there is not a chance in hell that I won't pay for the next year's subscription. And so, but in the end—

Josh: Do you reckon you would have had the same effect with Headspace?

Tommy: Uh, no, because I like Sam. I like him. I was thinking yesterday, he's my one that I want on this podcast. I want him on. Like he's a guy that you could have a serious con— fucking serious conversation. I want to, I want to be in a position where he's on the show and I can just ask him dumb questions. Just ask him what I feel is dumb questions because he's just got the smartest answers for most things. He's a neuroscientist.

Josh: The thing that I was thinking about this morning, Jordan Peterson versus Sam Harris.

Tommy: Yeah, I love that combo.

Josh: But what's the difference? And not knowing that, like, this is me, I haven't spent the— there's people who spend hours and hours listening to Jordan Peterson was, I think. And you, you've, you've listened to a fair bit, so you might be able to call bullshit on this or not. I feel like Jordan Peterson is more likely to tell you what to think versus Sam Harris tells you how to think.

Tommy: Uh, no, I think Sam Harris tells you how we think. He's so in tune and understanding of how consciousness is.

Josh: But don't you think Jordan Peterson is more likely to say, uh, these are the things like, um, like the topics that he's covering is more like stuff that you could use in a debate, but it's actually not like the— Sam Harris is actually giving you— like, if you listen to Jordan Peterson, uh, which you used to listen to more Jordan Peterson than Sam Harris, I feel like— I feel like there's been a shift or whatever. Yeah, I like both.

Tommy: I love what listening to them together— that's the best thing about them, right? They are opposites, and I think that's what they're up to. Yeah, they're definitely— but they're both— I think Jordan Peterson is, is quite logical.

Josh: But don't you think Jordan Peterson, like, I feel like in a conversation, if you listen to Sam Harris, you're talking about like being present and how you do all that sort of thing. If you listen to Jordan Peterson, you're saying why women wear lipstick. But it feels like that's—

Tommy: I think that is misrepresenting them by using those That's what I mean.

Josh: But I feel like the Jordan Peterson stuff is always sort of— I think it's more probably politicised. Yeah, but I think it's more about society and how gender issues and all that sort of thing. Whereas Sam Harris, from my experiences through you and what you're communicating, is it's actually more about self and how you're in the world rather than getting hung up on status and working out all that sort of shit.

Tommy: Well, he's understand— I don't know the answer. One's a scientist and one's a psychologist, and the scientist deals with science, like factual science, that, uh, sometimes question logic, right? So that you could be— logical thing to do right now, but then the scientific fact of this situation is this. And so Sam's following science, and psychology—

Josh: is psychology science?

Tommy: Well, Yeah, yes, but, but it's, it's not science in the way that, uh, a new school of science—

Josh: What is psycho— like, I mean, this is way out of our, um, pay grade or whatever the fuck you want to call it, but I think, I think—

Tommy: Do you understand what I'm saying?

Josh: Like, if, if someone was to say, who should I listen to, I feel like listening to Jordan Peterson, you're more likely to end up, uh, developing an angry dude?

Tommy: No, not a chance in hell.

Josh: You don't think? No, not at all. Do you think angry dudes are more likely to listen to Jordan Peterson?

Tommy: Maybe, maybe because they're fucking struggling. The thing is, what I listen to, one of Jordan Peterson's things and the claims that people make about him and what he's done to people and what his audience have done, he's like, I'll hold up the fact that I've got 25,000 letters from people saying that I've changed their lives. Over this fucking statement that your audience is X, Y, and Z and are angry. It's like, I think there's more factual information in the fact that he receives letters from people.

Josh: There's a lot of white supremacists that would say that their lives have been changed by some pretty— there's probably a lot of letters to the KKK saying lives have been changed. So is that— I'm not saying that he's a Nazi, but what I'm saying is like, isn't that a factor?

Tommy: Like, yeah, but no, what I'm saying is One, you're representing somebody based on just what a few people online are sort of spinning and saying that he's evil.

Josh: But like, if you go, if you watch any of his, and maybe it's the type of areas that he's playing in, but you go into, onto YouTube and you watch his lectures, and I, my personal experience has been that they normally be your issues rather, and some of them might help you like Maybe some of them will help us rationalise why we do what we do. But it's not necessarily— I don't necessarily feel like I walk away with coping mechanisms. If anything, it makes me feel more like I'm thinking more about these things and making issues of stuff.

Tommy: Whoever Jordan Peterson helps is the person that is requiring that type of help in the moment. There is men, many self-help gurus— not saying that's how he sells himself, he's more of an educated self-help guru than any of these other, you know, people have done a coaching course or just motivational speakers. But you— I see how I go through moments of resonating highly with people's content. Yeah. And I've gone through periods with Jordan, I've gone through periods with Sam, and you're with Sam together. But don't you think that you feel better watching some I've been watching Jordan Peterson's content. Yeah, I don't think they— they're not really saying what— Jordan Peterson is a Christian and he's got an interesting observation, interesting point on Christianity. And Sam Harris is an atheist, and I like listening to his take on religion because it's the opposite of Jordan's and meeting in the middle. That's what I actually like, that so you get yin and yang in some respects.

Josh: I guess that's the other thing too, is like people can have like Jordan is no, no good nor bad, somewhere in the middle. Like he's got probably some great things, some things that aren't amazing. But I guess it's, it's interesting if we, if we are who we consume, if we're consuming this content, I wonder whether people who are resonating with certain things, they might resonate with the 5% that's not necessarily productive to their self-development.

Tommy: But it's like people want to throw it out if Jordan Peterson has a few bad eggs in his support group or his audience, right? It's like, I get that, but it's also what about helping people? If you were to choose, if I was to choose as a person to go, I can create this massive movement, help a fuckload of people, and I'll have a bunch of bad had eggs, you know, Nazis or whatever, that respect some of the things he's saying because they're principles of life, right? They're just, they're logical principles of how we live and how we exist. If I was to choose that or have nothing, what would you choose? I'll choose the one that has some bad eggs, but I was able to help a bunch of people. I think that's the reality. You're a comedian that has all these people come see you. There's a bunch of assholes in the audience. Yeah, probably someone who's killed somebody in that audience. Can you control that? That's the thing. But then people are getting in trouble for the audience that they have.

Josh: But it's because— but their content draws in a certain type of audience.

Tommy: But what are they saying? That's what I think. He's completely misrepresented Jordan Peterson because I don't know what he said. I haven't heard anything that he said that incites violence, incites racism, sexism, any of these things. And if—

Josh: I guess part of it, part of it is that— and this is the interesting thing— is it's like everyone's got their opinions and you can But I guess part of it is what I find interesting is like I'm not necessarily observing at the, like at that individual level of what Jordan's doing. I'm looking at like, okay, how does it impact my friends? Where do they bring it up in conversation? And that's like, okay, like this is, is this thought productive? Are these ideas productive? And then I—

Tommy: But if you don't understand how it was pitched and how it was said and the context of it, it's like it's misrepresentation. If you don't actually know the information, you're making assumptions based on— I get it, your friend might say X, Y, and Z, but it's like, what can we control? We can control what we say, and he's a guy that chooses his words very, very carefully. And do we have control? Ricky Gervais talking about this— I don't have control of how someone interprets my joke. I know how I I say it and what I am intending for. And if a few people don't understand it or get it in the way that I was putting out there, that is not my problem. And I know what you mean.

Josh: I mean, there's a difference between— I think there's a difference between Ricky Gervais and Jordan Peterson is Ricky Gervais is an entertainer that's providing comedy. He's still highly offensive to people.

Tommy: That's what you're saying.

Josh: You're saying Jordan Peterson is fine, but I think Jordan Peterson It's the 10 Rules of Life. It's the— he's giving prescriptive ideas of how to live, which is fine. But don't you think? Yeah, but I think that you can— I don't think just like he's not all bad and all that sort of thing, but I think that you can— it's risky to say Jordan's misrepresented, which means all of his ideas are solid.

Tommy: I think he's misrepresented by people who don't look into his work. Book and then criticise his ideas.

Josh: But do you think that there's a lot of people who would be consuming his content that aren't looking— like, are we assuming that every single person is reading every single chapter of his book? I don't know. What do you guys think? What do you think, Threaded Deal? I mean, he's from Toronto, isn't he? Is he Canadian?

George: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't know. I don't think I have a proper stand on this point, just because I don't, I don't listen to either of them actively enough to have a proper say. But like, I used to listen a lot to The Minimalists because I found it was something I related to. But over time I was like, okay, some of these things I can see where they're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree with it. And I would find other alternatives. And like, there's obviously always going to be people in an audience that are not not your ideal customer, right? But you can't— as the creator, you can't really do anything about it. If something that you've done has connected with someone else who maybe is not the ideal type of human being, you can't control that. It's just whatever you did resonated with them.

Tommy: I mean, the beauty of our beast that we're creating is that if someone does something wrong, it's just that they're a Gronkh and we're okay. Yeah, we're inclusive of all types of Gronkhs. You're a murderer. That grog move, bro. You're a grog.

Josh: You're a great guy though. Uh, 97, what do you think?

Mason: Yeah, I'm, I'm in a very similar position to Dale because I don't, I don't consume Sam Harris or Jordan Peterson. I've only listened to like, like probably half their episode on like Joe Rogan or whatever. But I, yeah, Jordan, Jordan Peterson's interesting because he's, he comes from the background of having all the research and all the facts and all the knowledge and all the rigour behind his thinking. But it's the— I guess sort of like the space that he plays in is like a— it's a touchy area. And so he, like, like what Dill was saying, he attracts all these people that resonate with his content, and he doesn't have really control over that. But I just tend to avoid the content because I just don't want to Well, I think if you— it's like, like, look, look at YouTube recommendations, right? That just feeds into his audience. It's literally like you, you watch one Jordan Peterson video and the rest of them are just like, Jordan Peterson, uh, argues with a feminist on air. Like, it literally every— oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's hard to get—

Tommy: he's not even creating those like other people are.

Mason: And so, and so that's the point. It's hard to get perspective when all you're fed is this one bit of content from him. You don't actually get to see unless you actually actively seek this out and search the specific thing.

Tommy: He's in the game of having complex conversations and people are not complexly, not a word, dissecting his conversation. So, they take a little bit, simplifying the complex. And he's over here going, I actually didn't say that. Well, so— I actually said this, this and this.

Josh: And so, I guess part of it is if you've got all of this content, and the idea is that you need to— before, uh, before you have a true understanding, you need to read all of it to understand the full context. Is there danger then, I guess, in the bite-sized chunks that can end up— no, because I think they can help so many people.

Tommy: I think so many people— I mean, this is the thing, people who scoff at him haven't fucking written a book that sold 20, 30 million copies.

Josh: But we know a lot of people can be— but you can be a fuckhead and write a lot of books.

Tommy: Yeah, but I'm saying, I don't— I think, I think for the fact that there's been huge movement is it's helped a lot of people. And so you hear a few, like within an audience of whatever it is, 20 million people, the, the 5% is very noisy that don't like him. And you know, there's left, there's right, there's fucking there's media outlets that make, get, you know, get clicks based on writing articles that are saying, oh, look what these people said, look what these people tweeted about. So this is the thing, I, I don't think we— you throw him out because he's done so much greatness. Yeah, for people. And Sam Harris, I mean, he's a guy that despises Islam. Yeah. And so, I mean, he's polarising in his beliefs and thinking, and that's why I like listening to both of them because they're so different.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, do you find that— have you worked out that there's certain people that if you consume them, you're a better version?

Tommy: That's who I've been consuming. Sam, Jordan, all these people. That's what I consume. And I'm like, I'm not leaning one way of going, this is him, I hate Sam because of that. It's like, that's why I like a full spectrum. And I'm sure— and I have—

Josh: I wonder how many people though, like, the full spectrum, it's like, what do you say? Full spectrum.

Tommy: But I'm not fucking listening to left-leaning feminists. You know, that's not, it's not what I'm listening to, right? So it's not full spectrum. It's, it's, I am at least having some, I think it's some broad spectrum, but it's probably not. It's, it's probably an echo chamber.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. It's literally like whoever's on Joe Rogan or. But I think. Is there a challenge? Is there a challenge in us being like, okay, what could we be listening to that would actually be that spectrum? Like how do we sort of colour our consumption? So that we are then more empathetic to a broader range of people.

Tommy: Exactly. When someone says, I'm open-minded, bullshit. You're not open-minded. Yeah, you're in your mind that has an echo chamber.

Josh: But isn't that the biggest danger? I guess the biggest, like, it's the Joe Rogan effect where it's like there are a bunch of people who will only listen to Joe Rogan, or they only listen to Joe Rogan, and there is this assumption that like they've got a good grasp of the world based on what one dude is Of course.

Tommy: Of course. Yeah. Yeah, it's exactly right. And, and when you're the biggest podcast in the world, you have a lot of influence. And there's shit that he says that I'm like, ah, and I was watching a podcast of his. It was a highlights of someone else, Brian Callen, one of my favourite comedians. He's Joe's best friend. And there was like 5 episodes, you know, 32 of the Joe Rogan Show. It's amazing seeing their setup and shit. It's crazy. Like, but he went to like 145 and the shit they're saying back then. I know he doesn't say now.

Josh: And so it's fine to have an evolution in ideas and all that sort of thing. Yeah, I think there's just something— I think we can all do an audit on what we're consuming.

Tommy: Yeah, but you've also got to go— anyone you're criticising that is saying something, or it's not selling, or basically communicating an idea at a high level, at a mass media level, is It's a fucking— I don't think courageous is the right word. It's— you need to be quite brave to do it because when anyone criticises these people, are you willing to stand up and have your opinion out to the masses? I don't think most people are willing to.

Josh: But it's because they haven't entered into that arena.

Tommy: Yeah, but so then what gives them the fucking right to criticize?

Josh: I think that if you're highly thought about, if you're if you're playing in the public arena and you're willing to give big ideas that are going to impact people, there should be a level of critical thinking that is applied to it. And so they are. Yeah, but I mean, that's the thing, like, what's the alternative? It's like, no, like, Jordan's done his research, just respect him.

Tommy: No, but what I'm saying is, like, but I think a lot of people's thoughts on Jordan wouldn't stand up in a conversation with him because he's thought about it. So it's at this, this micro thinking on a macro topic, right? So it's like this, ah, I didn't like this, but, but it means this and this. This is where it wouldn't stand up. That's why I'd like to have these people to ask us the dumb questions, because I think we all ask the dumb questions.

Mason: But the interesting is, the interesting thing is that's his thinking, right? It doesn't mean it's right. So yeah.

Josh: And so I guess that's the part, like, yeah, he's— but what's right and wrong?

Tommy: It's science, right? Yeah, but I don't— I— because people are questioning science. Yeah, people—

Mason: all of his things are based on science, you know.

Tommy: No, no, but I'm saying for people question Sam's thinking, it's like, well, fuck, dude, he's a scientist. Scientists rely on facts. You're relying on feelings. You know, a lot of people are—

Josh: well, he's got a hypothesis, but feelings aren't facts a lot of the time, right? But I guess part of it— but it's also like how I mean, and this is— we're entering into conversations where we don't understand, which is why it's hard. But I think, uh, my point of it is I think that, uh, when— whenever you have quoted Jordan Peterson, it's amped up and it's normally, um, more negative than whenever you talk about Sam Harris. But you need to stand up straight, pull your shoulders back. It is more like— I feel like when you're talking about, uh, things that you've learned from Sam Harris, there's empathy and thinking and all that. Like, if you think about it, Sam Harris is like, from what I've experienced from you, is it always comes from a place of, uh, how am I feeling, how am I reacting in the moment. Whereas wherever you talk about Jordan Peterson, it's like, people don't understand him, we're doing this thing.

Tommy: That's not— they're the different things. I'm I'm talking about him being misrepresented. It's not saying— I'm not quoting him.

Josh: But I think that people are more inclined to enter into that world, which I wonder about from a self-development point of view.

Tommy: Everyone needs to do a piece of work. If you criticise Jordan Peterson, consume his whole entire book. Don't consume the first chapter. That's the thing. Don't, like, if you were wanting to have an objective opinion on something, actually understand their opinion. But if you read the book, is it then objective? Well, I think you can actually—

Josh: Because there's a bunch of people who would read the book and then say, I am now— Now I've read the book, I'm objectively going to tell you I don't like it based on the lens that they put onto it.

Tommy: That's okay.

Josh: No, but I don't think it is. I think that that is that, like, there's so many examples of that where people say, hey, I've read the book, which is now why I'm in a position why I can say that it's not good.

Tommy: But maybe you have The problem I have is the lack of information or facts that they actually have in the criticism. Criticism, if you're willing to beat down someone's idea that they've thought of, you need to have some information, some ideas, some facts of why. Because every time someone criticises it, they're obviously saying, "That's a bad idea. Then what is the good idea?" I think that's the conversation. Isn't it all in there?

Josh: Like, how about this? There's heaps and heaps and heaps and heaps and heaps of ideas. Yeah. And what we— the ideas that we focus on and that, like, there's ideas that are right and wrong that are both right.

Tommy: But I'm not even saying right.

Josh: However, but there is like the opposite can also be true on a bunch of these different things. And everything is so nuanced. And so trying to apply a single idea or saying this is what it is, this is how it is, or this is it is then putting a certain lens or a certain spotlight onto life that might actually be unproductive to what we need to learn. So, we're actually just securing our own position rather than being like, oh, yeah, because you can say, it's easy, that makes sense. There's a lot of ideas that you could say make sense, but isn't necessarily good for society. Or for relationships or for all that sort of thing.

Tommy: But I think when we question anything and if we don't agree with it, we're obviously saying it's wrong. So what then? What is the right— what's that version? I think that's where people struggle to articulate if, you know, their criticism of something, but then they're also— what they— what's the answer to that then? If you're saying my answer is wrong, then what is the answer? Do that work in finding out what the right answer is.

Josh: Well, maybe it's— maybe it's like whatever you should be on what you should be focusing on. Maybe that's part of it. Like, part of it is like when, uh, so I'm— if, if someone's having a discussion with someone else and it's on a big issue, and then someone's like, hey, here's a fact or an idea, and this is why I think you're wrong, maybe you're focusing on the wrong bit. Like, I guess that's saying— and so what you're saying is you need to match whatever someone says with their idea and say, hey, you need to prove that specific one. Whereas I feel like when I'm having a conversation—

Tommy: I'm just saying question yourself, because if you think someone's wrong, you're— do you have the answer to it? I'm not saying you need to come with it, but it's like, but just question why you think something's wrong, and then, and so do some work around why you think the thing you— what is right.

Josh: So the person who gets that bit of information from Jordan Peterson should probably do the same?

Tommy: Of course, they're testing it on their belief system, their world.

Josh: And I guess that's a point, is I what could be lost in the conversation is it sounds like it's like you need to prove why, uh, what Jordan's saying is wrong.

Tommy: But in a top-line overview, Jordan Peterson is trying to help people be better people. That's it. And so that's where you, you comment on the lipstick thing or whatever. It's like you, you're actually looking at the wrong things because I think—

Josh: or is he saying the wrong things? Maybe he did, but that's what I'm saying. But the point is, the stuff that I get, like, I feel like the stuff that it's like, okay, I'm going to consume this content, it's like, okay, deconstructing feminism or whatever it is, uh, what are you going to walk away— are you going to walk away a better feminist, or are you going to walk away with, um, ammunition as to why you need to stay?

Tommy: Well, I think you see, you definitely see the trends in what people, what reporters and things people talk to him about, and it's kind of died down on talking about pay gap and all this shit. It's like, you see how it is not that productive because it's complex in his thing.

Josh: But it is productive. I think that like, it's, it's, it's not productive for anyone that's on top, anyone that's benefiting from a pay gap.

Tommy: No, but I'm saying it's not productive in trying to get soundbites out of him talking about why there is no pay gap, you know. So my point is that he hasn't been— I don't see him being spoken to about that shit in recent days. Yeah. Which is a good thing, I think, because I don't think it's that productive communicating to the masses that there is no gender pay gap. It's this is why there's no gender pay gap. You know, so I'm saying I don't think that's productive talking about that shit.

Josh: And so that— but my point is, going back a year, that was a bit like you would send me videos on like, hey, why?

Tommy: No, but we were having conversations around all this shit. And so I was sending— I'm not just sending you fucking random videos about—

Josh: I know, but the point is that people can easily say, hey, this is why. The funny thing is, yeah, but so we would watch the same video and I'd be like, oh, actually I got this out of this. But you're then throwing it all out.

Tommy: So it's like helps the masses, but then there's a few things you don't like about it. But who's the masses? A mass amount of people. That's what I'm saying, a mass amount of people.

Josh: That could all look very similar. Yeah, but that all could be this, who come from the same sort of experience.

Tommy: But I think, yeah, I mean, this is the thing, it's— he's helped a lot of people and people want to throw out him with any kind, any negativity surrounding him. But it's like, why would you do that? Why would you do that? Like, why are people criticising someone who's helped a lot of people?

Josh: I mean, he's helped a lot of people and he's always into the Nazi stuff, but fucking, there was a bunch of people you're talking about there. Yeah, but because there's This is the thing, that idea that you, if you help a lot of people, you, uh, by default should, uh, shouldn't be criticized, or you need to have—

Tommy: I'm not saying don't criticise that. I'm just saying he, he doesn't need to be thrown out just because some people, some, some off people have resonated with his content.

Josh: Yeah, no, I don't think that—

Tommy: I don't think you should. And when you bring up these Nazi things, like, you see how misrepresenting that is to connect people?

Josh: Because what I'm saying is What you're saying is the idea that if someone's helping a bunch of people— Why aren't we looking at that though?

Tommy: Why aren't we looking at that? Why is the focus on the few bad eggs that have been helped? I don't think that's—

Josh: But that's not why I'm— The funny thing is when I'm saying the Nazi thing, I'm not saying that he's breeding that. I'm saying the thinking behind—

Tommy: But imagine having your name connected to that shit when that's not your intention. Imagine if we all of a sudden had white supremacist following this show. You're gronks if you're a white supremacist. So it's a fucking hard situation that we're in. Yeah, you know, like, we can't— like, what are we, fucking assholes?

Josh: No, well, I think that that's— I think the hard thing is that you're trying to— like, if you try and look at it in a black and white sort of setting—

Tommy: but aren't you doing the same? Black and white? Oh, he's saying this bad shit, and so you're focusing on that.

Josh: No, no, no, no. What I'm saying is you're saying we shouldn't be critical of him. No, he's helped a lot of people.

Tommy: No, I'm not. I'm saying why aren't we focusing on on how many people he's helped. That's when people get so negative about him. It's like, but what about all the fucking people he's helped as well?

Josh: Like, yeah, but that's it. But you get— but that can't be— if someone has a critical thought on someone—

Tommy: but I don't think they have critical thoughts. I think it's just fun.

Josh: But say that— but I don't understand. It sounds like you're indoctrinated.

Tommy: I don't understand. But that's so dogmatic. But there's been no fa— yeah, this is the— I think it— how can— because it's your information behind all these people's criticism. That's what I don't think. I that's where I think there's lack.

Josh: But maybe you're not listening because I think like the— because there is, there is a bunch of like him focusing on certain things within, in the reflection of say feminism for instance, and saying, uh, you know, like there's so many examples where it's like, where it's like, is that, uh, productive? Like is people using that in a productive way. And I've just seen it being used a bunch of times where it's like, uh, it's, it's not productive. And so my, my point is that it's like, uh, anytime someone's critical doesn't mean they necessarily have this massive agenda against him. They're just saying, oh, you know what, like, how can we think critically about these types of things if we're going to hold them up with such a high standard?

Tommy: Kind to the people that are critical because he's is the most criticised intellectual of our generation. So I mean, you're pointing out somebody that's like, that's a tame fucking example, right? Why is he criticized? Because of his thinking. Why? Because of his ideas.

Josh: Because why is he— what's wrong with these ideas, do you think? I can—

Tommy: what isn't? Like, there is things that are wrong with them, there's things that are right with them. So that's the thing. He usually—

Josh: so that's my point. So why? So that should be the first discussion. It's like there are things that are wrong with it. It doesn't just require, uh, the people only criticise him. We've got to look at the positive things.

Tommy: What's more noisy though, the criticism of him or the help that he's given?

Josh: What's more noisy? Uh, you said that he sold, what, 22 million books? Uh, are there 22 million books sold of someone saying that he's not great? I don't think so. No, but I think he's got enough— I think he's got enough noise around what he's doing. And if you look at—

Tommy: my question wasn't what's more noisy. I think my question was what's more noisy. But to you, I think what's more noisy is the criticism, because this is the things you talk to me about.

Josh: It is what he said.

Tommy: I think it's the bite-sized piece that he said that I, you know, that everyone's looking at now. And so that's, that's what I mean. It's just media is— you think about the topics that will get people fired up and that they'll want to—

Josh: and he enters into those spaces.

Tommy: He's also asked, like, he's also asked about all this shit. Yeah. And so my point is the people, like, the media outlets that are pushing these videos are also benefiting from the criticism. And so it's this spiral, right? I'm not saying don't criticise his ideas. He's— he can stand up for himself. I don't need to. I know I'm not even trying to fucking say, you know, I'm not trying to stand out.

Josh: I'm trying— the reason why I think people bring up the Nazi stuff Right. I don't know if people generally do it. It's just something that I was thinking of.

Tommy: Yeah, because that's the noise you've heard about it. I've heard that noise too, but it's not what I need to lead with.

Josh: But the criticism of journalism and media and all that sort of thing has been used as a tactic for some really negative stuff in the world. And so, I guess that's part of it is it's like—

Tommy: But is it not true? Do you not think that's true? Do you not think media outlets are using things that— topics that are button-pushing and hyperbolic, I think, in some cases.

Josh: Yeah, I think that the media is made up of individuals who have a— some have a responsibility to get people to view their content, which creates, you know, which forces them in a position to create critical things and to be headlining And we're— which is also forces things to be that are extremely complex to be broken down into a headline.

Tommy: And so if your echo chamber is a left-leaning news outlet or a right-leaning news outlet, what's going to happen? You're going to be led by that criticism or that noise around certain things.

Josh: So is that, is that not the— I guess part of it is, are you coming from if you think about what you're consuming and you talk about the spectrum, if yours is a certain way, could there be a blind spot that this discussion, uh, is showing that you have based on— I don't know, I'm not—

Tommy: I'm a better, better person than I've ever been.

Josh: Yeah, that's not saying it's a positive— it's a, it's a positive thing, which is like, my point is I haven't heard Jordan Peterson's name in a bunch of, like, a few months. And whenever Jordan Peterson was the discussion, it seemed like unproductive. And so my point was, you are what you eat. What you're consuming is the Sam Harris stuff. But I do consume Jordan Peterson too.

Tommy: Yeah. So this is what I don't understand. I don't know if the point you're trying to make is that I'm only consuming Sam, so I'm better, but it's like I'm consuming a lot of stuff. So Sure, I have blind spots, but I don't think I'm over here saying some of the, you know, negative things. What's my— bring people down.

Josh: What is my blind spot, do you think, with this?

Mason: I, I think there's— I'm probably in a similar position, position to you in terms of— because I don't, I don't consume any Jordan Peterson content, so all, all my echo chamber is, is hearing Elon Musk's voice. No, it's, it's hearing, it's hearing Jordan Peterson on Joe Rogan and Joe prompting him to answer these questions. Or like on YouTube, something might pop up and it's, and it's negatively positioned. So I don't actually hear about the fact that he sold all these books and helped all these people. But then in saying that, it's like I get the point. Like, he's entering into these conversations and it's why his arguments and his, uh, why is he being criticised is because of his thinking. And, and so I look at, I look at it from there. But I think your blind spot is similar to mine in terms of probably needing to fully form an idea by actually consuming more of his content. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I think because then if that was the conversation, I think it's for anyone. If that's then the conversation, it's like, I'm not gonna— it's then just go, I'm right, you're wrong, or he's right, he's wrong. It's like you've then done a bit of work.

Josh: No, well, I think that there's like—

Tommy: I think, I think what it is, right, can you listen? Yeah, go on. Consume a bunch of his content, then you hear conversations had by people. Uh, one was on Dan DeBooth's podcast where he had a girl on that was doing a comedy show about Jordan Peterson.

Josh: But that's, I guess that's the the disadvantage of poorly thought-out criticism, which to me that was entering into dogma, which— or the— is dogma the right word? It's sort of like that single-focused— yeah, they were saying, they were like, oh, it didn't feel like there were many points actually brought up. Yeah. Uh, I guess from a broader perspective, what I'm talking about is the nuance of all of this sort of stuff.

Tommy: And I'm not questioning that. There is nuance. I think, I think it's actually in the last couple of years, I think there is some sort of— it's, I think it's calmed down slightly.

Josh: What do you think Jordan— I guess the bigger question is, what does Jordan Peterson represent for you? What does he represent?

Tommy: A logical approach to life and how to be a better person. I think he's a a guy on a mission to help people be better.

Josh: And I guess so based on that, anyone that's criticising that, you can see why, uh, you get pissed off because you're saying this is a guy trying to do good who's logical, who's just bringing logic into the world.

Tommy: No, it's not just logic, not even just logic. I think what I take from his principles of life is that it's like, yeah, that is a simple logical thought that has had a lot of thought to it behind it. Have you ever thought—

Josh: have you ever listened or consumed his content and questioned?

Tommy: Definitely, yeah. I think I do more so now.

Josh: And so, and so more so now, what, what changed for you?

Tommy: I, I think putting a filter of being more sensitive to what the words mean for some people. Whereas scientists, even Sam Harris, he's not, he's not afraid to offend some people. Can you be logical and empathetic?

Josh: Yeah, that's a hard one because it's like, I don't know, I just, I just feel like when people are using the argument of logic, when we're using the argument of logic, it's like, this is this is logical to me, should— but it might not be logical to someone else. Which, if you're not being logic— if you're not putting on the lens of is it logical for someone else, then it is, um, like, are we not using empathy? I guess the other point is, is it's like, if, uh, if you can see— if you're reading this and/or consuming this content and you're seeing some of those markers where you're not quite sure putting the lens of the person whose spectrum is the other way to yours, and they are listening to the different types of content, you can see where the friction is.

Tommy: Of course. And I'm not saying that what he says isn't going to offend a heap of people.

Josh: But we're not even talking about being offensive or not. I think sometimes it's just like, is it a productive conversation within the spectrum Because I, you know, if there's a spectrum of people who are consuming that type of content, do they need to hear more reinforcing content around this specific thing, or do they need more empathy in that moment?

Tommy: I don't know, it's a hard one. And then at what point do we listen to people's feelings over factual information or facts around something? Science over feeling, you know, at what point do we Does that then change where we actually know, well, science doesn't matter anymore?

Josh: Yeah, I feel like there's probably a bunch of people who can be pretty cunty based on just doing science. Like, just talk— like, if I had a mate who every single time I was feeling a certain way said, well, the science—

Tommy: No, but I'm talking about big— I'm not talking about, you know, friendship. I mean, sure, there's some— yeah, that person would be a cunty. But I think, what about— Why cunty? But when there is— when that's at a, at a fucking government level where we, where we forget things.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's— I wonder how— I wonder how— I guess the point is, is like, if you're consuming something and if you understand— if, if you believe in 90% of his stuff but there is a 10% that you're not sure on, then think about that 10% and think about someone who's completely the opposite to you and their beliefs. You can see the friction points, of course. And then, um, and then is it productive? Does Jordan Peterson need, uh, defending?

Tommy: I don't know. Does he need the criticism?

Josh: Yes. It's a daily talk show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Please send us an email. What do you think? Yeah. Uh, have we got it completely fucked up? Uh, any other—

Tommy: well, I don't even think we're actually saying much other than exploring.

Josh: We're doing what most people would be.

Tommy: This is I think we're doing more than what most people do. I don't think they explore whether it's right or wrong. They just either feel it's right or it's wrong, and then that's all they do. So the, the— I think the takeaway is like, yeah, I think we do need to get outside of our echo chambers and listen to other shit that doesn't feel good when we're listening to it. Because if it doesn't feel good, then it's probably a sign that it's not what we believe in, or, you know, that's in alignment with how we actually think now. But it doesn't mean it's a bad thing that we feel that way. Yeah. And that's how we fucking expand and change. Anyway, I'm hungry. Yeah, I'm hungry. I'm hungry. I need some real food.

Josh: Not— yeah, some breakfast burritos. It's a Daily Talk Show. Uh, go to the website thedailytalkshow.com. This weekend, episode 400. Oh shit. And we're also— I'm going to, uh, send out, uh, the— a video of a highlights package to our email list first. So go to thedailytalkshow.com. Join the Drunk— uh, Drunk— the Drunk Squad, the Gronk Squad. Join it, uh, and you'll get the email first. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow for Weekend Banter. See you guys.