The First In Australia With Craig Harper

Craig: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's a Daily Talk Show episode 388, and for the 6th, 7th, 6th, 6th time we've got Craig Harper back on the show.

Craig: Wow, 3D Dills all over it, mate.

Tommy: He is. How you going, buddy?

Craig: See, the keeper of records. Uh, I'm good, I'm good.

Tommy: Um, I just want to first launch into, you know how, I mean, I, I was going to say, you know how I, but then I was like, you're not there when I'm introducing or trying to give context to you as a person when I talk about you to other people. So you're not there. The way I, the way, the way I tell people about who you are, right, is I say Craig Harper, he started the first personal training studio in Australia. And that's what I lead with because I like, I think it has cut through. It has real cut through. I think we've got that. Which I want you to use when you're talking about myself or Josh, when you're telling other people about us.

Josh: But we fit.

Craig: What are you pioneers with? What?

Josh: Well, this is the difference. I think that you're, you're in the lucky position that you fucking— I mean, not lucky position. You started a while ago, right?

Craig: I'm old.

Josh: And so, yeah, potentially you could look at it like that.

Craig: Fucking dinosaur. But yeah, carry on.

Josh: And so you, you, you did shit ages ago, which you can now talk about and say, hey, I did this shit ages ago. Yes, it has more cut-through.

Craig: Correct.

Josh: Whereas like a year and a half into the podcast, we're thinking of those headlines that we can use. And so what we were settling on was the first daily podcast and video talk show in Australia.

Craig: Oh yeah, that is true. That is true.

Tommy: So we've just gone 7 days. We're into our second week.

Craig: What happens on the weekends? Like, we don't literally do stuff live on the weekend.

Josh: Oh, we divorced.

Tommy: Didn't I tell you?

Josh: That's right.

Tommy: Bodhi doesn't love me.

Josh: Really? We pre-record. For the weekend, but 7 days a week. But the weekend gave us a chance to— we started to feel like we had the pressure of delivering a certain type of show Monday to Friday, whereas weekends we can be loose. There's, there's no expectation. So we can try different things. We can talk about shit that maybe feels a little bit more in. It's a little bit sort of like we bring— we brought in our partners the other day, shit like that.

Craig: You know what I think is beautiful about this whole format and process and evolution of communication and connection and media is that there's no rules. It's like, well, what do you want to do? Let's do that.

Tommy: I love, I love playing in spaces where there's no rules. I hate rules, to be honest.

Josh: Well, we normally have a rule that you wear headphones. You've decided to go against it. But can I say, fuck your headphones. But for someone who normally when someone says, I don't need headphones, I don't want headphones, they've normally back it up with the shit mic technique. But I've got to say, you sound— I know you can't hear it, but you sound amazing.

Craig: Well, thank you. I do my very— I've done— I've been in front of a mic a few times. But, you know, it is, it is true that you can, you know, try weekends or try this or longer or shorter. Or you were asking me when we went and got a coffee, why are you doing 3 a week? Because I was doing 1 and, and then I started doing 2, 2 episodes of The You Project. See how I did that? But it's— you go, what's going to resonate with people and what will— for me, I needed to be all in or not in.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: You know, and so especially doing a, a format which is largely around personal growth and, you know, behavioural psychology and doing, thinking and producing better, people need to know what to expect. And because we're doing 3 days a week, it's, you know, it's, it seems to be having greater impact, audience is growing, recognition is growing, brand awareness is growing, and we're doing good shit, most importantly.

Tommy: How do you fit into people's lives? That's how, you know, your programming is along with someone's gym routine, it's along with someone's drive to work routine. When you were, when you, I mean, retrospectively you can look at, oh, I started the first personal training studio. Were you thinking that when you did it? Were you actually leading with that, or have we jumped the gun with how we want to market ourselves? Should we be doing this, like Josh said, in 10 years?

Craig: No, I look, I think that what you are doing is you are pioneers. But what I, you know, you, you, one of you was saying to me when, when we went and got a coffee that you don't have the same talent on board as some people do. And that doesn't mean talent what normal people think of talent, but as in profile. But what you're doing is, and you've both got your own profile and your own following in your own way, but what you're doing is building—

Tommy: it's called a criminal record.

Craig: You're building this protocol and this operating system in this community at a really maintainable, nice linear progression. And I honestly think that this is the most underrated thing in media because your conversations are great. You guys are talented. I'm not pissing in your pocket because I would just say nothing. You guys are talented. These guys are fuckwits, but you guys are— they're both good.

Josh: It's actually good having a team because then you can sort of punch around.

Craig: I mean, here's the thing. So obviously people can't see 3 Day Dill or Mr. 97. Mr. 97. But there is a team and there is a culture. And this is kind of for me, this is better than a lot of studios, radio studios, commercial studios that I've been in, you know. And so you're building something which is great so that it's solid, so that once you do get to that tipping point where it goes crazy, you already got the infrastructure, the experience, the miles on the board. Where you're going to be able to manage that well and optimise that, you know. And that's, you know, it's, it's all— nothing's— it's never like— we've never been in a time or a culture or an environment where things are, um, progressing at the rate they are now. And, and a big part of that is technology. But, you know, in everything from medicine to media, you know, everything's expanding, everything's evolving, everything's dynamic. And if you're a fucking dinosaur, you're going to get left behind.

Josh: Do you think that that's what why people don't like the linear path because they're seeing all these things popping, like the technologies and stuff like that. Do you think that maybe that feeds into everyone wanting to have a successful podcast after a year?

Craig: Maybe. But as you and I also, we probably should have had the coffee conversation on air, but I'll bring it to air now. Is that— what episode is this for you? 388. You know, 388. And you would have done at least 100 of those where there was fucking 4 people and a canary watching, right? Relatively. Um, generally wasn't even there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, uh, but it just— so you are now heading towards 400 shows and just now you're starting to get real momentum.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And you've got this beautiful facility with amazing high-end equipment and this great team, but that's what you have to do. Like Everyone loves the idea of having a successful podcast because it's fucking sexy. And as I said to you, when I started doing Whiteboard Lessons, it kind of, in a small way, but it blew up. And everyone's like, wow, I'm going to do my own. Fucking, I'll do that. So a bunch of people started doing Whiteboard Lessons and putting their name in the corner like I did. Well, they lasted— the longest anyone lasted was a couple of months because it's just a grind and it's work, and they didn't get the response I got. And then they went, fuck it. Yeah, and I've done 4 years, 3,500 whiteboards, and I keep doing new whiteboards every day because there's an element of success and growth and fulfilling one's potential and exploring possibilities and creating your thing, which is really not sexy. It's just about, you know, I hate the term grinding, but it is about doing the work when it's not always instant or fun.

Tommy: You've been talking to people about success and creating success in their lives for, you know, a long time. Yeah, 100 years.

Craig: Jesus was around.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was he like anyway?

Craig: Look, he was good, patient, loving, you know, hair long.

Tommy: Was that—

Craig: yeah, yeah, I was the 13th apostle. I'd missed the cut.

Tommy: Um, do you think people's— where they're looking to as success has changed from social media. So I think, you know, information, the accessibility, the information being so accessible now is a blessing, but it's also bringing up all these other ways and metrics of success.

Craig: Yes.

Tommy: Do you think it's shifted from 20 years ago when you're talking to people about success?

Craig: Yes.

Tommy: To now when there's all these things that are new and uncharted waters like What media? Yeah.

Josh: What were the success metrics? If you were just a— if you were a business owner, what were the things that people were flexing back then? What were they? How would you show off?

Tommy: Because social media wasn't a conversation back then, right?

Craig: So success is really interesting. I mean, we could do 2 hours on success, but success is— there's the idea of success, there's the science of success, there's the metrics of success. So obviously on a podcast you would go, well, we've gone from 5,000 listeners to 10,000 listeners. It's 100% growth. That's fucking amazing. That's, you know, you know.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Or it might be, I've only got 200 listeners, but fuck, I love it. Yeah, you're successful.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Craig: You know, so there's the, there's the kind of the personal interpretation, um, and I won't bore you with my stories, but you know, that's, you know, I got to the point where I had 5 businesses and I was making heaps of money, and from the outside looking in, my life was shiny and I was successful. But in the middle of that life, the, the internal reality was not that I loved it. And it wasn't that anything was bad, or— and I was very fortunate to be in the position that I was in. But there's a difference between the external reality or appearance of the car, the house, the money, the brand, the, the representation of success, and one's experience in the middle of that. So I think back in the day, success was very much, um, a metric of stuff, or stuff was the metric. What do you have? What do you own? What do you earn?

Josh: What do you look like?

Craig: What are you doing? What was it? What do people think of you? For me, For me, it was very much about living up to my parents' expectation and the expectations of others. Because you grow up in a— well, I grew up in a mindset that said that success is this stuff. And you believe that because it's like I grew up in the Catholic Church. Oh, we're going to heaven, no one else is. Like, these are not suggestions. This is subconscious and conscious programming of a certain way of thinking. And so whether or not you're talking about getting to heaven, or whether or not you're talking about how to connect with humans, or whether or not you're talking about what is success, it's ultimately all about how we think, you know. And so for me, uh, success is contentment and calm and living— without trying to sound too cheesy— living in alignment with my values.

Josh: What's the craziest thing that you ever did purely out of a way of demonstrating success?

Craig: Oh, you know, I was never really a show-off, but I bought lots of expensive cars that I didn't need. Yeah, um, but that was more because I liked— I would buy cars and then not tell people. I wouldn't drive them around because I didn't want people to think I was a dickhead.

Tommy: But you like—

Craig: I didn't—

Tommy: you like cars though.

Craig: I love cars.

Tommy: You like cars, you like motorbikes. It's—

Craig: but I just wasted lots of money. But I was never really, um, because I always had— even when I was successful in inverted commas, or when I'd reached a level that we might call successful, I still felt insecure and fraudulent. I still felt like a phony.

Josh: What was the pacifier then? When did you— could you actually fix that temporarily through external things? Like today, people stand in front of a sold sign of a house that sometimes they can't afford to show people, hey, I'm living the dream, I bought the house. What in 1995? What is— I'm just curious as to what that actually was.

Craig: Oh, for me, I guess going from, you know, going from the fat kid in Latrobe Valley, literally the fat kid, literally picked last for every sporting team, who had shit self-esteem, who all that, right, to owning a company with employees. Even when it was 3, I'm like, fuck, I own a company. I can— I own a car. And people go, boss. I'm like, fuck, you know.

Tommy: So that—

Craig: things like that where I owned a company I built, I ended up employing 500 people. I had multiple businesses, multiple venues. I had a personal assistant. I'm like, fuck, whoever thought I'd have a— you know, things like that, which, um, there's a bit of ego in that. But more than that, it was just for me a sense of accomplishment and doing something that I never thought I could do. And this seems, you know, because things only have the meaning that you give them. So I always thought I was not that clever. I always thought I was, um, not particularly gifted or talented, not particularly attractive, not particularly anything, you know, average. I didn't hate myself, but I thought I'm not in any way on any level special. And so when I went to university at 36, right, that was my first time going to university, and I went and did a degree in exercise science. And I thought that I was academically stupid. So for me to go there in that space where for the first semester I was literally double everyone's age— everyone's 18, I'm 36— I don't know how to use a computer, I don't know how to write academically, I don't even know how to use the language that they use at university. It's like I was in Germany and I didn't— and everyone, we're all humans, but everyone except me speaks fucking German. And I should just say German, not fucking German. But it, for me, that, that sense of facing my fear and being, putting myself in an uncomfortable situation that I didn't need to be in but I chose to be in, for me that was a real KPI of success.

Tommy: I love Tony Doherty saying on your podcast, prove— you're not trying to prove others wrong You're trying to prove— you're going to prove yourself right, right?

Craig: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Tommy: And so in terms of you starting these businesses, was that to prove others wrong? Did you think that others looked at you like you couldn't do that?

Craig: 100% no. I am inherently lazy at doing shit I don't like. Like, I do not like working for people.

Josh: Um, when was the last time you did?

Craig: 26. I was 26, my last job.

Josh: What was it?

Craig: Uh, It was working in a gym as an employee, and my boss was a good dude and it was a good gym.

Tommy: But the one in Hampton?

Craig: Yeah, yeah, Trackside. Mike, g'day Mike, shout out. He was a good dude. But I, you know, not everyone is destined to have their own business or do their own thing. And some people are. And there are, there are, there are benefits to being an employee too. So I'm not saying being an employee is bad or good or owning your own business is bad or good. I'm saying we need to figure out what works for us. And so for me, I love the freedom and the flexibility and the possibility that came with going, I'm going to do my own thing. So if I go no good, it's my fault. If I go great, it's my fault. And I can always go back and fucking count reps and work on the gym floor if I really have to.

Tommy: Uh, that's what I think when I go to the gym still. Yeah, I look at the PTs in there and I think, fuck, I'm glad I didn't do that, but maybe I could go back to it if I— if all goes to shit.

Craig: Yeah, if everything fell apart, definitely go back to it. Yeah, but I think that You know, it's like another thing, Tony, uh, speaking of Tony Doherty, shout out to Tony. Like, when he set up Australia's first, um, 24-hour gym, Doherty's—

Tommy: I mean, that's why we'll have him on the show, because we want people who've just done the firsts.

Craig: Yeah, but, but he was— he tells his storey a bit where he— so he went and opened the gym, um, on the first day that it was becoming like 24 hours, 365 days of the year. And that night he went home and out of habit he went to lock up. He went, no, I don't lock up, right? And then he had this key and he goes, what do I— fuck, what do I do with this key? Well, we never need to lock the door again. So there was a paddock across the road or a vacant block. He just tossed the key into the block and went home because it's like he's—

Tommy: he's—

Craig: one of his philosophies and my philosophy too is fuck plan B. Because if you give yourself a get-out-of-jail card, you're not fully committed. Like, I believe that to— if you want to excel at something, you need to fully fucking commit. If you change your mind, that's different, right? And of course you need to be strategic and intelligent, and it needs to be possible. But, you know, for you guys to not succeed at what you're doing here will only happen if you just decide not to do it. Because every ingredient that you need, which is resources, tech, a few dollars behind you, and talent, and all the prerequisite skills you already have. So the only reason it won't work is if you just stop doing it, because you've— everything since you started to now is better. And it's, it's, it's not that, but it's definitely a nice linear progression.

Josh: Did you feel like you were trying to prove yourself right in regards to going back to uni as a older student.

Craig: I just wanted to prove to myself that I could do something. And I know to other people they'd be like, that's such an underwhelming fucking— I get it, I get it. For me, making a million dollars was far easier than going to uni. Yeah, I was relatively wealthy before I went to university. I found making money much easier than being academic.

Josh: And what did you get from the other side of the university experience? Did it deliver what you were hoping?

Craig: I didn't know really what to expect, but I did learn some stuff. A lot of university, as you know, depending on what you do, is not particularly enlightening, but the academic process is interesting. And having to, um, me going from being this guy in charge of all these people, being a leader, being a pioneer, and being the captain of the ship, to being one of 3,000 students or whatever I was, who's a shit kicker walking around with a backpack on just turning up to lectures. Um, was really good for me. It was really good for me. And, um, yeah, I loved it. I loved it.

Tommy: How do you think we determine what those things that we have pushback to in our lives— how do we determine whether we should do those things? Because school's one, right? I— that makes me feel sick thinking about having to go back to school. I know that it would better me to some degree, the, the, the commitment to it, seeing it through.

Craig: Yeah.

Tommy: But then how do you, how do you work out what one? How did you do it for yourself looking at uni and going, fuck it, I feel shit about it?

Craig: It's not something I absolutely needed to do, but it was something that it— so full transparency, it gave me more confidence in some domains. So if you go and do something with a team, or like I work for some Kilda footy club, I work with Nissan Motorsport, work with Melbourne Vixens, Melbourne Phoenix, work with a bunch of Olympic athletes. Being an exercise scientist helps as well as having all the other skills and so on.

Tommy: It helps me introduce you to, because I use that one as well.

Josh: Well, I think it also, like, it's a— it shows where, like, I guess because if you think, you know, you're a strong-looking dude, you're a bit of a, like, you've got like meathead vibes. And there's probably people—

Craig: Thank you.

Josh: There's probably people who would say they associate that and then they make assumptions on intelligence. But then you've got the beauty of saying, okay, you've got the meathead and you've got the university girl. So you met like—

Tommy: was it Braun?

Josh: Was that part of the, part of the thing where it's like people expect this from me?

Craig: A little bit, a little bit that it, that would— I mean, look, I'm inherently insecure, so I think most people are inherently insecure, but they won't talk about it. But that, that was part of it, that it would give me some confidence and it would give me— it would maybe open a few doors and it would give me a sense of I guess, more worthiness. Like, I always felt even, even when I could do something well and I'd already proven myself and I already had a level of success, I still felt not good enough.

Josh: Where does that come from? Like, within the podcast stuff, what's it— what's the internal monologue for you at the moment?

Craig: Well, all of that stuff always comes out of fear, so it's trying to figure out what the fear is. So insecurity, overthinking, Procrastination, self-doubt, avoidance is a manifestation of fear. And so for me, it was always the fear that I'd be found out that you're actually shit. I'll be found out that, you know, you're, you're not intelligent or you're a fraud or you're, you know, so and I think that's an ongoing, you know, the human condition is overthinking. That's nearly everyone is insecurity, is self-doubt, is all of those things. And it's understanding that this is not weak or bad. This is human. And so, um, even, even before we started, I said to Mr. 97, I go, make sure you get me so I look fucking big. And I was only half joking.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, right. What's the other half?

Craig: Yeah, do you know what I mean?

Josh: Well, I was, I was— the funny thing is you say that and I think make sure I don't look fat. So it's funny, everyone's got their inner dialogue version, their own story.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, everyone, you know. And it's funny, like, I work with what we would call high performers, elite athletes, successful people, actors, personalities, blokes in prison, addicts, general population, blokes who cut their thumb off, um, you know. And, and everyone, everyone at their core is the same, you know. We all— none of us want to be anxious, none of us want to be lonely, none of us want to be disconnected. We all want to focus on a purpose We all want to be secure and safe.

Josh: So if the insecurities are part of the human condition, do we just have to accept that they're going to be there?

Craig: Um, I guess, I guess there's a scale, isn't there? It's like if you live in where we live, which is very privileged, there's not a whole lot to be insecure about, or there's not a whole lot, you know, which is not to say that we don't have problems, but when you think that you know, in a, in a population of 7.6 billion on the planet, 3 billion people live on $2.50 a day or less. Well, shut the fuck up because your life's awesome. Yeah, you know, and I always have that. I was listening to a really interesting podcast yesterday and they're talking about light and shade and good and bad and, and being able to appreciate things. And sometimes it's like, there's a famous saying and that is um, the happy person wants a thousand— the healthy person wants a thousand things, the sick person wants one thing. Yeah, right. And so sadly, sometimes it takes for us to be ill or to have a tragedy or whatever, some kind of, um, event to happen for us to get perspective about how fucking great our life is.

Josh: When your back's feeling fucked, how does that change your perspective on things like going to the gym and stuff like that?

Craig: Um, look, I see my back for what it is, which is huge, which is the lower back's not so functional. But in the context of, you know, my mum who just dealt with cancer for 2 years, or my dad who had heart surgery 2 weeks ago, or, you know, John that I work with that got blown up in a car accident in an industrial It's, it's— I, I still— I'm fortunate that I have that awareness and perspective and gratitude. And I go, yeah, my back's fucked, it's sore, but it's all— I don't have cancer, you know.

Tommy: What do you think the antidote is for looking at your situation now and, and thinking, I'm not where I want to be? And so that you, you're in this place of restlessness or unhappiness, but you know it's a part of the journey.

Craig: Yeah.

Tommy: Is it something you've experienced?

Craig: I would ask another question first. I would say, is it really about the situation, circumstance, circumstance, environment, external reality? Is it really about that stuff, or is my frustration more about my story, right? Is it really about what's going on out here, or is it really about what's going on in here? Like, where is the frustration and anxiety and, um, lack of happiness or joy? Is it, is it because about what Is it because of what's happening or not happening in my external physical three-dimensional world— business, marriage, bank balance— or is it really about what's going on in me, this, the inner dialogue? Because once again, if you get that person that's like, oh, my life's this and that, and they're not that happy, then they find out they've— on Monday find out they've got cancer, they don't give a fuck about anything except their health. And then Wednesday they find out they got wrongly diagnosed. You actually don't have it, you're healthy. For 2 days they're the happiest person on the planet, and then they come back to Saturday, they're like, oh yeah, but— so, and that's not to say that our external reality does matter, of course it does. But again, this comes back to how do I manage my mind and my emotions and me in the middle of all this stuff?

Josh: That's why I feel like the— my relationship with food is so annoying, because in the grand scheme of things, it's like so stupid, right? The idea that the stuff that we eat, like, if we like break it apart, it's like, what am I— what, like, what, what is the main fear? What is like— if— because I think for a lot of people, food, weight, all of that sort of stuff is their number one concern in life. Like, I think that—

Craig: and how sad is that? How sad is that, that in the context of global problems, yeah, that their number one problem is fucking Tim Tams? Yeah, or their ass. Yeah, I'm not being rude. Yeah, but I was the same. I mean, I, I had food issues for— and it's, it's— I was pathetic. I'm not even saying anyone else. I'm just— I was so fucking self-centered and ridiculous and egotistical and insecure. Yeah, what are you doing?

Josh: If you don't worry about it though— so I wonder, like, if I was today, take it off the table and say it's a non-issue. Yes. Without taking any other action outside of saying it's no longer an issue, am I putting my head in the sand, or am I finally allowing myself to live?

Craig: Well, that depends if you believe the story. If the storey is it's no longer an issue and that's just words, then you'll continue on. But when you— but when that, when that thought becomes an emotion, when the emotion of belief, or when the emotion, the appropriate emotion is attached to that and that becomes ingrained, then that has a physiological consequence. Then, you know, it's like when you believe that that dude over there is terrifying, then you're terrified, even if he's not terrifying. It's not about him, it's about the thinking. But, but there's a lot of space between I'm obsessed with food and I'll just let it go.

Josh: Are there many people that have success in that idea of think about it less?

Craig: Uh, no, there has to be habit.

Tommy: There's habits.

Craig: Yeah, but it's also, it's like when I go, you know, like if I say to a room full of people, uh, or if I said to you, okay, Josh, for the next minute— we might have even said this on a podcast before— don't think about the number 7. Did we say that before? Yeah, and so whatever you do, don't think about the number 7. So fuck, well, I don't think about— well, I'm thinking about it. So how you not think about the number 7 is you shift your focus to that coffee cup and you go, fuck, that's an amazing coffee cup, and I wonder if that's recycled paper, or you know what I mean?

Tommy: 7, he's thinking about.

Craig: And so we're shifting our focus, but you can't, you, you can't will yourself. There needs to be a behavioural change. As well. So it's like just saying, oh, I'm not going to be scared of that, that doesn't make you fearless. But, but by doing the thing that scares you and surviving, now instead of the fear being a 9 out of 10, it's a 7. Doing it again and surviving again, it becomes a 5, and then maybe eventually it'll be 1 out of 10 response or a zero.

Tommy: What are the consistencies and the people you've dealt with over the years that have changed their storey around food?

Craig: Um, you know, the interesting thing about food is that, and, and with all behavioural change, there is no 3-step plan that is universally effective. So Josh has a relationship with you, the 2 boys that are off camera have a relationship with food, so do you, so do I, and different things will work for different people. But I know for me What has worked, and I say this, for me what works is clearly defined boundaries. Because even though I'm intelligent and educated and knowledgeable around food and micro and macronutrients and physiology and all that, doesn't matter. Because when I eat shit, I'm just being a human who loves eating shit because it changes my biochemistry and makes me feel fucking amazing, and that's why I'm doing it. There's no logic in it. So I know for me, you know, you wouldn't say to an alcoholic, just have one beer, mate. You know how alcoholism works. You know that one beer is not going to make you drunk. And you know, you know, you've got a grip now, so just have a beer. And that seems melodramatic, but for some people, and I am one, me opening the door on certain foods is analogous to opening the alcohol door for an addict. So I know that it's not about eating the cake it's about, for me, the subsequent impact, which is I'll then— or I can unravel and make dumb decisions. And now I'm going to get— eat all the cake.

Josh: So is there— I guess the question is, is the— is there more fulfilment in deciding that that's off limits and not doing it and using that discipline? Or is the discipline of, you know, because the common advice is just don't be silly about it, just have a balanced diet. Like the thing that used to annoy me the most when I was in the middle of my weight issues with the people who said, just have a balanced diet.

Craig: I think that's trite and I think that's naive.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Because that's assuming that— see, people think that how they think and how they are, you should think and you should be like that. I'm like, cool, do that. But that doesn't work for me. Yeah. So it's like what I just described how I work. I'm not suggesting anyone else does that. That's not advice.

Josh: It's always hard coming. I always found the balance one a hard one to come up against because I feel the language implies that, oh, what, like you just need to be normal. Like you just like what you're doing isn't, isn't normal.

Tommy: What's balance?

Josh: Yeah, well, I think people would say, you know, you can have bread, you can have the piece of cake, you can go, you know, you can go out and eat that, you can have dessert on the odd occasion. And yeah, I remember that being a big— Because I think I would try and then seek, I'm like, okay, this balance thing. How do I do this? I guess like—

Tommy: It's not specific either, right?

Craig: Yeah. And look, most people can. And for most people, that's pretty good advice.

Josh: Do you reckon the most— but I reckon it's probably— I don't know if it's shifting, but it feels like with what we have with our sedentary lifestyles probably leads to quicker decision-making, like the Uber Eats culture of just ordering in food. Are we slowly seeing the shift away from what would be deemed a balanced lifestyle?

Craig: You know, it's never been easier to make stupid choices than now because everything's so fucking accessible. And, and you can, you know, you can, you can do that dumb thing so quickly before you even really think. Um, and that's why, you know, I think that this kind of brings up this idea of, uh, without trying to sound too deep spiritual, but living consciously and going And, and I think all of us should do this at some stage, which is, what do I want my life to look like? Forget money and success and KPIs, but just my life as an experience. And then what kind of person do I want to be in the middle of that? And what works for me— not works what works for you, or what works for you, but what works for me. And by the way, this works for me, so you should do it. No, that's ridiculous. And this whole notion of there's only one way to work, or you should be married by this Oh, like people say to me, it's so sad you're not married.

Josh: What is it?

Craig: I feel fucking great. And by the way, uh, I know a fair few married people who hate their life. I'm not saying marriage is bad. I'm saying that that kind of conclusion that you are not married, that is sad, or you, you don't eat cake, that's— no, you're missing out, or you don't— it, it doesn't— it just doesn't work like that. And it's trying to figure out what, what works for me ideally. And, you know, for me, like, me getting up, I'm probably never more relaxed or calm or in my space than when I'm doing things like this where I'm having good conversations or I'm in front of an audience or I'm— but for a lot of people, doing this would be very uncomfortable, or standing in front of 500 or 1,000 people would be extremely uncomfortable, which is why not everyone should do what I do. Not everyone should do what you do. You know, it's just trying to figure out where's your space and where do you play best and where do you— where are you being you best.

Tommy: Sam Harris's app, Wake— Waking Up meditation app, something I love that he said was on the benefits of meditation. So it's all about being more conscious, thinking about your thinking, but from meditation. And I think it applies to things like food, and I think it definitely for me, doing it every single day has translated different areas of my life. But he says meditation sets up an alarm system for your consciousness.

Josh: You could stop focusing on 7, I reckon, better than I could, based on— maybe.

Tommy: But so meditation basically, and that consciousness, that mindfulness practice, sets up an alarm system for suffering. So when you start to suffer this mental suffering, whether it be around anything sets off that mindfulness practice, which I think it does. Having that consistency and creating that habit has definitely made, like, when I'm fucking getting into a negative spiral, just like, it's like, it's, you know, I, I feel like doing it every day has created some kind of loop.

Josh: Do you reckon that's a feedback? Because I was saying to Mr. 97, I reckon that like you, you seem the happiest you've ever been, TJ. Like what? Like there's from when we're on Easy Street, it was like, it was hard, there's friction. But like, there hasn't been a day in the past 2 months where the team hasn't felt great. I think that's based on, um, how you've shown up. Do you think that that is meditation? Is that where—

Tommy: not drinking, not— so not drinking is huge. Meditation has definitely contributed. But like, for instance, yesterday I had a big shoot and there was a lot on my mind. I choose— I chose to get up at 5:30. I'm not trying to fucking say I'm a hero. Know, but I was like, this is going to be a tough day for me mentally. And I was like, I need to do some form of meditation in the morning to— because it can only assist me throughout this day. And I think it helped.

Josh: But what do you— what are you thinking before you have a blow-up, before you get angry about something? No, what has changed?

Tommy: Uh, I mean, still get angry and shit, but I think it's that alarm system that you've created for that. When you do, you can pull back slightly and just— and he— and Sam Harris says he's just like, in those moments throughout the day, try and, you know, remove yourself. A deep breath can be the difference in a moment where you're about to launch into some kind of emotional state.

Craig: I think one of the things that you are doing better than you've ever done is you managing you. Whereas 100% of your focus and effort used to be in all the external stuff, and that kind of dictated the quality of your experience. Whereas now, and I think this is part of maturity and, um, kind of moving into living without being wanky more consciously, and is trying to— yes, you've still got to manage your life and your responsibilities and your kids and your bills and, you know, all that stuff, but at the same time working on you so that you mentally, emotionally, and practically and physically self-manage better.

Josh: Which it sounds counterintuitive because you would assume that to get the best out of a team, you need to be listening to everyone else more. I think that that's proof that by focusing on yourself and singularly focusing on how you're reacting to things, working on yourself, not—

Craig: it's— and working on yourself so that when he turns up or when you turn up you're fucking great to be around.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Like, the more that you are working on you, the better mentor, coach, speaker, leader, boss, business partner, friend, husband, the better you will be. Because wherever you are, you're good. That's that idea of equanimity, the calm in the chaos. And so it's the— so when you're around the boys, you're investing in the boys. You know. But yeah, it's, it's the work that you do away from life.

Josh: What's it— what's the, the single practise that's been most consistent for you over the last 10 years, do you think?

Craig: Um, uh, as contrary as this would sound to this hour, uh, talking less and, and paying. For me, my mind is busy, not, not in an overthinking way, but just in a, um Like some things I'm not— like a lot of things I'm bad at, but I think my mind works at like 1.5. And so sometimes when people are talking, I think you're the same, I want to finish. I know where they're going and I want to finish it.

Tommy: Same with Josh. I think with the three of us, I have to go. I got the point of what you're saying, Craig. You can stop this.

Josh: I think we've gotten better, but I think the podcasting has taught us to shut the fuck up more. I know that I like, I'm okay with the silence.

Tommy: And I think, yeah, you've done a massive piece of work, Josh, from when we started this.

Craig: Yeah. And it's being able to be in the moment and be all about the person because I used to be coaching someone or sitting with someone and I could actually be in the conversation and also be figuring out that thing over there and maybe planning that. And I've got multiple things going on. And I could get away with it, the conversation, but I wasn't my best self and I wasn't serving them. So I've managed to block out all this and be totally present. And also for me, and you've heard me say this before, but, and maybe it's because I'm old and my time is nigh, but, um, you know, for me to be consciously like, when I go, what are my values, I always come back to just being a good human. Which is— that's my— is to operate from a platform of love. And whether that's kindness or service or generosity or time or emotional investment or practical help or— and I know that when I come from that place, then one, I'm, I'm better for me.

D: I'm—

Craig: I enjoy who I am more. The Craig experience is better for me and it's also better for others. But also life is way better. You know, and that's a constant work because it's not a natural state. Because my natural state is being very human. And so it's kind of, you know, when you go, this is my home plate, this is love, and this is the pendulum that is me. I'm swinging over it and back over it, out to now I'm a dickhead, now I'm back and I'm focused, now I want to yell at somebody, now I'm being selfish. Or— but the more that I kind of come back to that place where I'm genuinely investing in others and genuinely listening, and I'm not saying things because I'm a good talker and I'm articulate and I can make this, you know, but it's real and it's authentic, then the better things work for me.

Tommy: I reckon the last 3 years, definitely since having Bodhi, I've become a lot more emotional, whether that's accepting my emotions rather than shutting them out.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I definitely feel I've become more emotional. Is this anything for you? Like, I struggled— like, you've had some heavy podcasts in the last week. There's one with a young girl who had a brain tumor. I struggled so hard because all I can do is go to the place of my son.

Craig: Yes.

Tommy: Is there something for you over the last, you know, 10 years?

Craig: Yeah, I guess vulnerability. Yeah, vulnerability and being raw and real. And I used to— because as a as someone who their job is to talk to audiences, you can get up and you can talk because you've got knowledge and you're a bit funny and you've got a sense of humour and you've got skill and you've got lots of experience. And so you can come from that very skill-based cerebral place, or you can get up there from a much deeper spiritual and emotional place and go, I'm just going to have an experience. I'm just going to go and— like, I did one a couple of weekends ago in, which was a public, so not a corporate, but a public 3-hour thing in Adelaide. And I just said— and I don't go in with even a bit of paper anymore. I don't have, I don't have any notes, no video, no PowerPoint presentation.

Tommy: You're not playing the video I made you?

Craig: Uh, we might play that in the intro. I might need a new one. But, um, but where I literally will have a 300-on-one conversation and I go, so why did you come? I go, put up your hand if you came here because you want to change something. And all the hands go up. And I go, cool, what do you want to change? And we just start there. I go, why haven't you changed it? And they might go, I'm an overthinker. And I go, cool, who else is an overthinker? Every fucking hand. I go, all right, so I'll write that on the whiteboard. We're all overthinkers. Where does that come from?

Tommy: Fear.

Craig: So what are you scared of? And then you just open this organic experience. But, but that's also— you have to be vulnerable, and it's a risk, and you have to be plugged into people because there is no— I don't have my 20-step process.

Josh: You've got to be secure. You've got to be secure in that the answers are in, in there, and they're not within slide 7.

Craig: And I can have an authentic conversation with 300 people. And keep that going for 3 hours.

Josh: Do you remember the first time that you did that when you sort of removed all of the bells and whistles?

Craig: Uh, yeah, yeah. And it's— I mean, it's still—

D: you—

Craig: there's still a— obviously there's still a, a practical and a cognitive element to that because you still, you know, you still want to create connection, you still want it to be a good experience, and you still want people to have takeaway information and strategies.

Josh: Do some corporates push Do they still expect, oh, like if you're gonna charge, you know, $10 grand to come and talk, then you need to have at least 7 slides? I keep mentioning 7.

Craig: 7. That was the first time, wasn't it, programmed? Um, look, I'll be slightly more strategic with a corporate because they don't know me. Like I did one not last week, the week before, for the AFL at AFL House. So they're all pretty smart.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: So all the high-level kind of players in that, you know, media and multimedia and marketing and business, and, and you can't go in there and tell 3 dick jokes and say thanks very much, I'm Craig Harper, and wander out.

Josh: You have to do 7.

Craig: Yeah, 7 dick jokes. So, but it's, it's also— so there's an element of strategy and preparedness, but also an element of being in the moment, because this is what I think If, if you are going to have a— if you're going to connect with a group of people, and of course you've got a plan, but you can only plan so much because you don't know who you're talking to. So how do you know what they need? And so I make it interactive so I can see where they are. And sometimes, like, I did one recently and we're about halfway through. This was a corporate group. And they were leaning much more towards that health, wellness, physical, you know. And I was— I was where I was— had intended to go was more mindset, behavioural psychology. And they're really interested in what's, what's biological age and how do I— I can— what's wrong with sugar anyway? And but all this, I went, okay, we're at the halfway point. And so— and they were into it, they were enjoying it. I said, so we can go down the do more the head stuff, the emotional and psychological beliefs and, you know, fear, and— or we can do more about the physical. So how to get in shape, stay in shape. And I'll put on my exercise science hat and I'll be more Craig the trainer rather than Craig the mentor or coach. What do you want? And they all— 80% of them said, can we do the body stuff? I went, no worries. So I put that on hold and I went— and we just went down that route. And we spoke about food and micros and macros, and we spoke about progressive overload and how bodies adapt and all this cool stuff. But it was quite science-y. And they, you know, but they— that's where we were and that's what they wanted. And I had a line of people after going, that was ace, because you were listening. Yeah. So I was in tune, you know. So, and that is the thing, like communication, great communication is based on having an understanding of your audience. And, you know, so being articulate or having a great vocabulary or being vocabulary or stringing 1,000 words together effortlessly. That's not great communication, that's just talking. Sometimes great communication is 3 words a minute.

Josh: What are some of the signals that you give off? Like how much of the things that we wear and the things that we say, like how much are you thinking about that stuff when you go into, especially in that presenting space?

Craig: What do you mean thinking about?

Josh: Well, just like what you wear, you know, for instance, like what I wear, how I present. Yeah, how you present, what you actually— but not, not necessarily the talk. Yeah, but then like, yeah, are you the kind of guy to be hidden behind stage before you go out, or do you—

Craig: oh, okay, sure. Yeah, that's a good question. So for me, if I'm doing public stuff where, you know, like in Melbourne we have hundreds and hundreds, you know, like up to 700 or 800 come to an event. And, uh, purely just to save my emotional energy, I don't want to really talk to anyone before the event just because I don't want to start having, you know, I don't want to start answering questions. And so if I'm presenting it from, say, 9 till 12, I'll literally hide somewhere until 2 minutes to 9, come out, do my thing. And then if at the end of it, if people want to talk to me, I'll stay there forever. Um, but it's also— there's the, for me, being, you know, trying to be in the moment as well and trying to manage my energy so that I can be 110% for the 3 hours and not go through. Because one of the dangers is even when you do a lot of podcasts is that you go through the motions. It's like you want to do each podcast as though you're excited and it's new. And so for me, literally every gig I do—

Tommy: trampoline, the trampoline, isn't it? Before the show.

Craig: Oh yeah, I've got the, the ice bath and the mini tramp and the mantras.

Josh: Have you like— were there certain things that you actually didn't realise that would affect something like a presentation but did? For instance, and people talk about what they wear, like you're pretty casual, dude. Did you ever go through a stage of rocking up in a blazer?

Craig: A blazer glory? No, I mean, I hate suits, but that's just me. Like, I'm lazy. Like, if I could wear—

Josh: About certain things?

Craig: Yeah, I— for my public gigs, I wear this. Yeah, I'm like, yeah.

Josh: Is that signalling something? Like, because I know signaling—

Craig: I'm just comfy. Yeah, there's a really good book which you've probably heard me talk about called Drunk Tank Pink, and it's written by a guy called Adam Alter, and he talks about the way that your envir— everything in your environment impacts your nervous system and your emotional system. And so for example, like, this environment is a really nice environment to do this.

Josh: Well, that's what I was saying. I used to complain about our old office. Do you remember how much work did I get done in that old office?

Tommy: Don't start, you complain about it.

Craig: But the funny thing is, is that this space. Yeah, there's an energy about this.

Josh: I get more work done.

Craig: There's where you, you, you want to sit and do this. Like, you could have all the same setup and resources in a fucking kitchen and you're like, ah, this is the wrong room. Yeah, right. And why? Like, you've got every— it's, it's just that. And so there's something about that, even down to there are certain clothes that you'll be more creative in.

Josh: Yeah, you're talking to me right now.

Craig: There are certain clothes where you're more productive.

Josh: I need the exact right temperature. Yeah, I need to—

Craig: Tommy knows my office. You've been to my joint, so I love my studio. I'm quite creative in my studio because it's nice. My office upstairs, I live on a main street and all I used to do was look at cars and concrete. So I planted a million bamboo trees. Now all I can see from my house is garden and green. Yeah. But I work better when I'm in the middle of nature.

Tommy: Okay, so then if it's— because I think I've heard you say it's not a geographical issue, it's a you issue, which referring to, you know, I need to move to LA to do this thing, or I need to move to Sydney. At what point— because I get it, I get what you're saying, but there's also—

Josh: because that's a story, the other side, other side of that coin of—

Tommy: yes, at what point is it not that you don't have aircon?

Josh: If you could, if you could work, if you could be effective with cars and concrete and a messy environment or whatever. Yes, there's, there's something in that.

Tommy: So when do you listen to the storey and when do you question and say, call bullshit on your story?

Craig: Yeah, in which bit though?

Tommy: Oh, I think for, for Josh when we're in the old office.

Josh: All right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig: I think that you can, of course you can work in, and part of success is being adaptable and being able to be fluid and in the moment. But also that doesn't discount the fact that there are some environments that are just more conducive to happiness and creativity. And, and so that's why, like, when I came in, I went, this is fucking great.

Josh: Yeah. And you can— I think it's creating a spot that works, that works for you as well. I think it's in like Austin, Austin Kleon talks, talks about it a lot, but having the— it doesn't have to be fancy, but it just needs to be somewhere that you know that this is the area where you're going to show up and do the thing that, that you want to do.

Craig: Let's say that you guys worked, you had all the same resources, but you worked in a, a building next door and you didn't have what you have here. You didn't have the upstairs, which, you know, so you had the same space, but it was all on one level and you didn't— if everything else was the same except the physical environment, you guys would not get on as well. Yeah, you, you would not be as happy, you would not be as fulfilled, because working in a really nice space, uh, does have an impact on your psychology, it does have an impact on your nervous system, it does have an impact on your performance and how you feel.

Josh: Do you think that's the underrated bit? Because I guess there's people talk about, oh, like, I'm not happy in my marriage or whatever, but they've got financial issues, they're not doing, you know, in the, the the right space they want to be in. I mean, how do you, how do you work out within life? Yeah. What are the actual contributing factors that I need to deal with right now?

Craig: Well, I think you've got to prioritize. And so obviously if you, if you start in a kitchen that doesn't, you know, all that. But, but what I'm saying is you've just got to the point where you don't need to. But, you know, in terms of all the variables in your life, those external things will always play a role and always be an influence. So it's all well and good to say all this stuff, but if you can't pay the bills or feed your kids, then, yeah, you know. So there's, of course, there's a practical element to happiness and success and contentment and calmness. But I think in the middle of all of that is— so you control your controllables. So what I can control is, for the most part, how I think and what I do and what choices I make.

Josh: What are your non-negotiables? If you were to go from one start of the day, not habits, but things that, uh, is not changing from for you day to day? What are the non-negotiables?

Craig: My non-negotiables are really boring, like training, like eating a certain way, like treating people well.

Josh: Um, what's the weirdest non-negotiable that you have?

Craig: Weighing my breakfast. So I weigh my breakfast every day.

Josh: It's not that weird. It could have been—

Craig: it's pretty weird.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think that your non-negotiable at a top level can be the trigger for creating out better habits in other areas of your life.

Craig: Well, I also get offered to do things which don't align with my values, which would pay me. Could you endorse this?

Tommy: Nah.

Craig: But we'll give you that. Nah, I can't, because I don't believe in that. So that's lucrative.

Josh: Talking about the endorsement stuff, I saw, uh, online yesterday there was someone posting— what was it called, TJ? Do you know what the technology was?

Tommy: I've got my phone, it's under my bum. Is it? Yeah, got it, I'll tell you. Mason, can you pull it up? It's in our Slack, the Daily Talk Show.

Josh: I feel like there's been, 'cause TJ and I wanted to run it by you, there feels like there's always technologies that's promoting fat blasting but giving you muscles at the same time. And all you have to do is do a 45-minute session where something punches you in the stomach and then before you know it, you're out of breath.

Tommy: His name's Kevin. Yeah, we found one yesterday that we saw someone endorsing, which I thought was pretty fucking horrible that a person with such a following would endorse something like this.

Josh: What was it?

Tommy: M Sculpt.

Josh: M Sculpt.

Craig: M-S-Q-U-L-P. What's the product?

Josh: Go to their website, 97. Give it a Google.

Tommy: So what it is, remember how back in the day there was the Abtronic that would be an electric current? So it's not like a TENS system that pregnant women, when you're giving birth, have on their lower back to release some pressure. Release some muscle contraction. It's another form of technology that Tesla use, so it's magnetic. Some bullshit. This is what I read. High-intensity focused electromagnetic field technology that induces supramaximal muscle contractions.

Josh: So for me, the bullshit radar goes off based on the language that they're using. Anything that's I think they said something like 20,000 put— it's the equivalent of 20,000 sit-ups and shit like that. I mean, you're—

Craig: sounds good.

Josh: I mean, you're— you've been across this industry, you're, you're an expert.

Tommy: And things are changing though, because this is disgusting, right? They offer like, um, no interest finance to have this shit done. So this is a trap for young insecure people.

Craig: Yeah. And what makes me sad is that people You know, it's like we want people to walk up the hill. We don't want them to take the escalator, you know, because it's in the walking up the hill that you become strong, that you build resilience, that you become mentally and emotionally tougher, that you develop skill, that you develop understanding. Uh, well, one, that is— I haven't looked at it, but it, it's almost definitely bullshit. But, and, and You know, the thing is that when they— what we need with claims is we need real science by independent researchers. And so what— isn't it interesting that it's always the equivalent of 20,000? It's not 19,900. If it was science, it wouldn't actually be 20,000. It wouldn't be such a fucking precise number because science is never precise, right? Um, but it— I think The bigger kind of issue is really that, like, we all know that— how do you get strong? Well, you work against resistance, both metaphorically and literally. How do you become mentally and emotionally stronger? By working against shit. Uh, how do you build muscle? By going into the gym. How do you build strength? By going to the gym and working against resistance. And even if that worked, the problem is that's analogous to somebody who gets given a million dollars who doesn't know how to make a million dollars. 'Cause they'll blow the million dollars, then they're poor again, and they can't get another million 'cause they have no skill or wisdom or insight into making money.

Josh: Well, it's not giving you any discipline or any of the things that— Because I guess that the thing with exercise and all of these, a lot of the things, even food, it's not even the food itself, it's the practise of being mindful, I guess. And so, when you take that element out of it, it's like you don't have to think about it. You sit there and you do the thing. That's the shortcut. It's the bit that's actually the important bit.

Tommy: It's not earned. It's essentially the same as if we were given this studio a year and a half ago.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Like all this, all the points, all the whinging about no aircon and shitty setups and it's all contributed to us feeling, to earning this.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then so the 10 years away from now we will have gone through struggles. The good thing is now I don't feel like there's many of those things. We're enjoying the process now, but I'm sure we will work out what the pain point is and what we need to fix very, very soon.

Craig: How old are you?

Josh: 28.

Craig: And you?

Tommy: I'm 30.

Craig: So if— let's just say, let's just fast forward. So now you're 40 and you're 38, right? And you've got another 10 years of experience and wisdom and insight and doing and learning and growing and evolving. Now let's say in some weird, for whatever reason, you lost everything and now you're 40 and you're 38 and you've got from a business sense nothing. You've got to start again. You would get back to what took you 20 years. You'd get back there in 2, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Because you now know what to do and what not to do. You've now got the hardwiring, the experience, the insight, the resilience, the understanding, the connect. You've now got all of this stuff which lives in you. That will make the difference, right? But you can't get that without the 20 years or the 10 years or whatever it takes, the 15 years. Like, I know that I could— I was talking to somebody the other day pursuant to your— I know I could go and work in a gym. Yeah, I know I could pretty much go to any country in the world and if I had to, work on a gym floor and make a grand a week in 2 weeks. Do you know what I mean? If I— because I know how to do that. Like, I've got a, I've got a fallback, I've got a default setting.

Josh: I know And it's different to a plan B though, isn't it?

Craig: I know how to make money. I know how to connect with people. I know how to create relationships. I know how to change bodies. I know. So, you know, I could make a couple of grand a week quite quickly just because, not because I'm brilliant, but because I have that experience.

Josh: Yeah. I think that's like Tim Ferriss talks about identifying what the worst, you know, what the worst thing that could happen be like an exercise in saying, okay, what does it actually look like? And because for a lot of people it isn't being homeless, you know, for a lot of us it's like going back to mum and dad's place or, you know, and I think that then that starts to reveal the privilege that we have, which is sometimes the kick up the arse to be like, actually, we need to be doing the thing that we want to be doing.

Craig: I heard him, Mr. 97, can you look up, there's a book, I think it's called Range. Can you find who wrote that? I think it's called Range. So you know how that, that whole— speaking of Tim Ferriss, you know that, that, um, they talk about a lot of, uh, educational and high-performance coaches, they talk about the 10,000 hours of repetition. There's a guy who wrote a book that's out, it's new. I've heard him speak a couple of times, really, really fucking fascinating around this. Um, so he talks about the value. Have you found it?

Tommy: Yeah, David Epstein.

Craig: That's him. And he talks about the value of being a generalist. So let's say, for example, um, you've got a kid who, uh, plays basketball from 5, and it's kind of casual. They're not bad, they're pretty good at it. They play, they play basketball from 5 to 10, and by the time they're 10, they go, this is what I want to do, I want to be a WNBA or an NBA player.. And so then that starts where they start now to train properly and so on. So it might take from that point 10,000 hours to become what you would call elite or world-class, or— but the people who come from a background of doing tennis, soccer, football, running, blah blah blah, because they, they've developed all of these other relevant and relative skills proprioception, balance, speed, in, in a range of situations and forums, it takes them about a third— depends— but about a third of that. So maybe 3,000 hours. So it's just something to be said. So you might go, um, like, you've never worked in radio, right?

Josh: I did digital content, but not on air.

Craig: Yeah. So, but because you've done so much stuff which is in the space, you've already got so many skills that to plonk you in a— not that you'd want to be, but let's say an FM station, and you're now doing morning breakfast. It would take somebody with no radio experience with similar potential, let's say 5x, it might take you 1x because you've already done so much similar stuff. It's a really interesting thing.

Tommy: I think it served me to be a generalist over speci—

D: over—

Tommy: specificist? What's it? The specialist. So video, right? You know, I learned how to film, I learned how to edit, I learned how to produce, I learned how to present across those, across all of them. Now I don't think you can make it as just a video guy.

Josh: Well, I think part of it, I think part of it too is that we, the thing with generalists is you are detached to the role. And so I think that when you are a specialist, sometimes you can be naive or actually blocking out certain experiences based on an editor or someone who works in post-production doesn't deal with X, Y, and Z. Where when you're a generalist, you are— I think like a generalist, another way of saying it is just like a lifelong learner. And I think like being a student of everything and being like, oh, me understanding this. And that's what I love about, um, one of my favourite departments in film production is the, the grip department that's looking after everything from cranes for, for cameras to, to mounting lights and doing all that sort of stuff. Because it feels like it's combining these different things. They understand frame rates and ISO and aperture and everything within a camera, but they also know how to fucking tie a knot. I think that that's super interesting.

Craig: Well, you think about like your background and my background. So I started having deep and meaningful conversations with humans for money when I was 18 because I was a gym instructor. I'm talking to people about their bum and their legs and their emotions and their beliefs and their job and their energy levels and their sore back and their goals and their plan and their timetable and So you're having these meaningful conversations, and then even though you're 18, you're helping them create a structure and a process. And, and then 19, and then 20, and then eventually doing that as a boss and as a personal trainer and as an educator. And, and then by the time you step on stage where, well, you're doing the same thing, you're just talking. And so by the time I, I did my first paid speaking gig at 26, I'd been having a version of that conversation for 8 years, multiple times a day. It just was with our person rather than 50, you know. And so that translates. It's like, I, I love comedy, right? And maybe in another life that would be something I would do, and I'm never going to do it, but that would be fun.

Josh: I would go and watch.

Tommy: I mean, you just have to go to one of these sessions.

Josh: Exactly.

D: It's—

Tommy: they're basically fucking stand-up shows.

Josh: Well, don't look at something like Brené, uh, Brené Brown or anything. Like, there is a huge— if you look at how Netflix specials are getting done in that arena. It's literally like comedy specials. Like, that's the format.

Tommy: People say to Craig after his talks, they say, great show.

Craig: Yeah, people call it a show. Yeah.

Tommy: Which I've said we should do a dinner and a show.

Craig: And so the thing for me to go and do stand-up, not that I'm going to, but it wouldn't be a big stretch because I tell stories, I try and create— well, we do create connection, I use humor. And I use humour and storeys to create an emotional relationship that you can't create with just data. Here's me giving you a whole lot of information. It doesn't work. But my point is, to come from the background I've come from, it would be a relatively— I wouldn't say painless, but it'd be a much easier transition to do stand-up versus I've just spent the last 35 years being a plumber. Shout out to the plumbers.

Tommy: But he was the funniest on site.

Josh: 3D Dill was devouring your book the other day. I know that he's a fan. Yeah. And so I thought a good opportunity. You can ask Harps a question as a young, as a young person who is novelist to novelist. Yeah, exactly.

Craig: Yeah. Are you a writer, 3D Dill?

D: I am now.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's just written a book.

Craig: Really? What's it called?

D: I'm still figuring it out.

Josh: No, that's the title.

Craig: That's the title.

Josh: That's great.

Tommy: You should see the fucking—

Josh: it's the shit.

Craig: Is it really called that?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Yeah, that's awesome.

Tommy: You should just show him everything after, after we finish.

Josh: Yeah, we'll run it through. Have you got a question for Harps?

D: Yeah, I mean, how do you— when, when you have something in your head that you know you want to do and it feels right to you, how do you then take that and like going through the process of getting there, like taking Tommy and Josh for an example, they wanted to do this podcast, but there's all this resistance around it. Like, there's a monetary cost involved, there's the motivation involved, um, logistics. How do you try and like push that out of the way, just focus on what you want to do, and basically like not letting, not letting anything get in the way of what you want without, without being a dick about it?

Craig: That's a good question. Um, so I always say start with the end in mind. So what is it that— like, if I would say to the boys, if everything goes fucking amazing for the next 2 years with a podcast, what's happening? Like, if everything goes with your book, if I said, what's the plan? Like, what would you love? The alt— what's the ultimate outcome for you with that book? You might go, it's in bookstores, it's selling all over the world, and I've sold a million copies. And you go— and I'd go, great, well, that's the, that's the ultimate for you. Perhaps, perhaps not, but right. Then I'd say then reverse engineer it. So what needs to happen now for that to become a likely reality? So everything comes at a cost, as you intimated, and there's resistance. So the cost of creating this podcast is time, effort, money, skill, discipline, sacrifice, um, whatever— all of the things that go into this. The truth is a lot of people want the destination without the journey. A lot of people want the bestseller, but they don't want to do the work. A lot of people want the abs, but they don't want to sacrifice the diet. A lot of people— so everything, whether or not it's a pair of shoes or a PhD, whether or not it's a great marriage or it's a highly rating podcast, there's a cost. It might be time, it might be money, it might be emotional, but it's whether or not you are just ready to do that thing. And then you almost need to be obsessive. Not obsessive because that's unhealthy, but you need to be as committed and invested in that thing as you can be while remaining sane. So, you know, and that's— that really comes down to, I would say, what do you want to do, be, create, whether it's with your book or something else? What is success for you? That's my first question. Then my next question would be, all right, well, around that, what needs to be completely fucking non-negotiable for you? So not so you do it when you're pumped or excited or motivated or you've got the wind behind your back or people are fucking cheering you on, oh, you're amazing. None of that. What matters is what you do when no one's looking. What matters is what you do when you can't be fucked. What matters is what you do when most people would throw in the towel. So your ability to work through inconvenience and discomfort and adversity and unfamiliarity and to embrace that shit is what makes the difference. Because what's not in your control are your genetics, hours in a day, potential. All that stuff is set. So what matters is what you do with it.

Josh: Fuck, that's amazing. I mean, what's the— if you were to, um, if you worked out what the destination was and you identified—

Craig: use that in your promo.

D: Yeah, that's good.

Josh: It's a good little snippet. Yeah, I think it'll have to be IGTV.

Tommy: —has to be $10.

Josh: What about if you love the destination, you've got it pretty clear in your mind, I want to be in books, I want to be doing all this sort of stuff, but the process, the bit of actually writing the book, not so excited about. Do you think that— have you seen anyone that has been successful in a realm that hasn't enjoyed the process?

Craig: Uh, yeah, I think a lot of— like, for me, about to start a PhD, I know that a lot of that won't be fun. I know that I won't enjoy some of that just because it's laborious and it's repetitive, but that's okay. So are you gonna be Dr. Harps? Are you gonna call me Dr. Harps? Can I call you Dr. Harps? You sure can't. You can call me whatever you want.

Tommy: No, but is that what the— is that what a PhD does? Yeah, yeah, you'd be—

Craig: I'd be, uh, you know, let's just I'll just say the chances of me actually getting there are slim. How long did it take? 26 years. If I go great, 3 years.

Josh: Okay, we'll prepare the SEO. Yes, so you would—

Craig: I would be a doctor of neuroscience. Really? Yeah.

Tommy: Sam Harris, he's a neuroscientist.

Craig: He's got a degree in philosophy and he's got a PhD in neuroscience. Right.

Tommy: Yeah. Dr. Harps, fuck yeah. Whatevs.

Josh: And so that process bit, yes, you can hate it. You can, you can still do it. Is there an identifier? Like, is there any way of identifying and saying, okay, this is because the thing that I can't fathom is when people say I'm doing a podcast, I fucking hate it. And I just think how much we, we love it and how much energy it gives us.

Craig: I think overall there's, there's the, there's, there's stuff about any journey that you don't love. But it's like sometimes the things that you need to do are not the things you want to do. Why do you think you need to do the PhD? I don't need to do it. 100% don't need to do it. I want to do it. Yeah. And it will, you know, for me, it's— I like every day of my life I would study for an hour to 2 hours. And so I'm constantly studying, I'm reading, I'm listening, I'm downloading stuff. I'm— I was listening to Sam Harris and Tom Bilyeu on Impact Theory on the way here. Um, you know, I'm— because for me, I love learning, I love evolving, and I love growing. And I feel like I can't help others grow if I'm stagnant. So I feel, one, I'm passionate anyway, I'm excited. Um, but, but I also, you know, the academic process is, is sometimes just fucking boring. That's all right.

Josh: Well, I guess it's the ultimate deep work. I think that's what I find, yeah, interesting about academia is the idea of shutting the door. Yes. And being focused and doing the thing that you have to do.

Craig: And you killed year 10 anyway, so you were great at that.

Josh: Oh, questionable. But did you go to uni? No, I didn't go to uni.

Craig: I did. You don't need to.

Tommy: We're the cowboy collection.

Josh: The cowboy collection. That was nearly, uh, Now, what did I used to say?

Tommy: The Cowboy Creative, Cowboy Creative, whatever it was.

Josh: I remember saying they're actually— it's a business in Docklands.

Craig: I think the people who didn't go to uni who are hugely successful is a pretty big group.

Josh: Yeah. Well, I think you're in good company. I think that it's— but I've definitely had moments where I'm like, I want to study journalism as a way of being like— and I thought that that's what I needed to do.

Craig: Only do that if you just want— you definitely don't need to do it. And I didn't need to do what I I did, and I don't need to go and do a PA. I want to though. Yeah, but it's, it's not, not a career thing.

Josh: Yeah, I think the education system is interesting. I think that the one thing that maybe is, um, uh, discredited at the moment, or people aren't considering, is like freelance lifestyle is great and all that sort of thing, but I think that spending time at that gym as an employee, you learn some invaluable things that when you become your own boss, having those experiences of working underneath someone is super beneficial. And I know there's going to be a bunch of people who— future of work— they're going to go out, turn 18, have their ABN number and go and not have that experience. Yeah, that's completely true.

Craig: And even when you're working in— like, you worked in some gyms that I don't know, but I'm assuming they weren't all fabulous and all the staff and trainers weren't fabulous. I worked in good gyms and not so good gyms when I was younger. But, you know, even if you're in an environment where there's some shit that's going on that you don't like or approve of, or it's not professional or it's not ethical, or it's not— you can still learn from all of that because it gives you an awareness around what you don't want to be and how you don't want to operate, you know. And so, but I think one of the challenges now is because, because we've got so much availability and accessibility to everything and you can get qualified, for example, to become a trainer in 8 minutes, uh, and then we've got 12-year-olds coming out going, I'm gonna help you change your life. I don't mean that disrespectfully, but it's almost that. It's like, I feel like going, no, what you've done is you've sat an exam and passed a test, and that's really good and well done, but go and get some experience and go and get some context and go and have a thousand conversations with people.

Josh: Was it always that, like, in the '80s and '90s, was it Just as easy becoming a PT?

Craig: Yeah, it was actually a little harder. And look, it's not— that's no slight on any individual, that's the system. And so that's the process, you know. But I— if, you know, when I'm boss of the world, that will change.

Josh: You think it's— why is it? Is it because of government incentives?

Craig: Well, it's not a government-regulated industry. You don't even need— legally, you don't even need to be— it's not illegal to call yourself a personal trainer. You just won't get insurance. Sure. Um, but, and I'm not suggesting anyone does that, and, and again, and at the other end of scale, there are PhDs who are terrible trainers, and there are Cert 3 and 4 trainers who are fucking amazing. But it's about, you know, there's an element of, of, uh, um, I guess skill and experience and knowledge, of course, that comes with the training. Then on top of that Like why he was a good trainer. It's got nothing to do with his fucking course and everything to do with who he is and how he is. And he's likeable and he's, he's got good self-awareness and he can communicate and he gave a shit. That's why he was a good trainer, not because he did that course at that place.

Josh: And so if you're coming off the back of doing a 6-week course, someone's listening to this podcast now and they've just done that, how can they remove the stigma from themselves or how can they feel good in themselves as a personal trainer? How could they reframe it?

Craig: Do you think?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I can talk to my experience because I, I was, I mean, nothing in comparison to you going back and becoming an exercise scientist, but me coming out of school as a kid that fucking misbehaved and didn't want to do school and thought I was shit around learning and all of that stuff, me doing that 8-week course was huge in terms of my confidence. I passed it and then I called this bloke and I said, mate, do you reckon I could come and do some work experience at your gym? Because I knew that it's like, I've got— who am I? I've got— I've got this thing that I felt good about passing, but then I wanted to get some real experience. And then I called him, he said, fucking no chance, you can't work at my gym, but you can do some experience. Yeah, I asked for a job first, that was the thing. But I then— that was amusing. And then I got it. I mean, it's probably one of the thousand phone calls he got, you probably can't remember it. But then I got a job in a gym on the gym floor. I knew I had to earn my stripes. And so if you actually have that mentality of going, I've got this thing, which is the tick of the box that you need.

Craig: It's great. It's the key to the door. Yeah, that's it.

Tommy: And then start working.

Craig: And it's, well, it, you know, well done on doing that. And to everyone who does their Cert 3 and 4, well done. It's a really good achievement. But understand the totality of what it is. Even people who, and you know this, even someone who's got a PhD in exercise science, someone who's a doctor, anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, energy systems, movement, physiological adaptation, progressive overload, all of that sciency shit. Were you rapping then? I was freestyling. But if, if they can't communicate and connect and coach and be in the moment and be likeable and relatable, all that PhD doesn't matter. All that knowledge doesn't— it's not effective. And so I would rather, for example, if I went, here's my 80-year-old mum, I've got a PhD over here who's socially inept, and I've got Tommy over here. I'm picking you because my mum will enjoy the experience with you. She will. Yeah, she'll go. It's not rocket science. Mary, jump on the bike. How'd you go on the weekend? What'd you do? How's Ron? How's your hip? What'd you eat for brekkie? What's going on? Did you see the royal wedding?

Tommy: Fucking whatever. It's the only reason I had a business.

Josh: Yeah, like, I mean, you talked about times where you actually didn't train. Oh, it's crazy.

Tommy: You would have done maybe in Brighton, maybe you're a hard bastard, but I had some, um, some mothers from Albert Park that when I went—

Craig: had an inappropriate question?

Tommy: No, no, nothing like that. I went, they came and they said, Tommy, oh, I had a big night last night, I want to train, can we go for coffee? And so we'd go for coffee, they'd pay me their $80, they wouldn't actually train, and I'd get paid to have coffee. I was a gigolo without the other a bit.

Craig: I never did that, Tom.

Josh: You never did. I guess you had—

Tommy: yeah, yeah, it was standard.

Josh: Craig Harper, mate, thanks for coming on. Uh, people can go to our new website, thedailytalkshow.com. Yeah, actually click guests, you'll see Craig Harper at the top because you've been on some of the, like, the most amount of episodes. Offender. Absolutely. It actually does say repeat offender. No, no joke, because so Blahj, our web gronk, set up labels so depending on how many times he wrote, it said repeat offender next to Harper's name. No joke. And I said, can we just cancel the labels on the home page before I go through them all? But that's, that's literally what I was doing.

Craig: I love it.

Josh: That's funny. But, um, CraigHarper.net, you've got, uh, all your, uh, stuff, stuff and schedule of when you're, um, doing stuff around. Tickets, buy them there.

Craig: Sure have.

Josh: And the You Project, obviously, on the Apple Podcasts, and you can actually click through It's like in our, like people who listen to The Daily Talk Show also listen to—

Tommy: A lot of people have migrated over from your podcast. Not migrate. No, not migrate. Wrong word. Wrong word. Fuck. Don't blame me. I don't have a PhD. Or vocabulary. I don't have vocabulary.

Craig: Thanks, boys.

Josh: Thanks, Craig. It's The Daily Talk Show. If you've listened this far, please do a screen grab, do an Instagram story. Yeah. Even tag up Whiteboard Lessons on Instagram so that Craig knows that you're listening. Otherwise, we will see you tomorrow where it's just TJ and I. See you then. Bye, guys.