TV Ain't Cool With Jules Lund

Jules: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 384.

Tommy: Welcome back.

Josh: It is Fat Fridays, this time with Jules Lund.

Jules: That's so offensive.

Tommy: What?

Jules: Oh, I've been jogging, I've been working out, I've cut out carbs.

Tommy: Jules did tell me yesterday, Josh, that he's training for a marathon, which should mean that you're good for a Fat Friday. You're putting— calories are going out, bro. You shouldn't be too worried.

Jules: I don't run that fast or that far.

Tommy: How is the training going? Because you're training for a marathon, the New York Marathon.

Jules: If you're going to do a marathon, do the New York Marathon. So I'm excited by that. I think there's about 50,000 people running, 2 million spectators, 19 parties, and it doesn't have old shuffles here trying to film it.

Josh: When you say old shuffles, you're referring to me, and there was a time where in London I was on a rickshaw that couldn't keep up with you.

Tommy: Oh God, why couldn't it keep up?

Josh: Well, because I was 110 kilos and there was a hill. Yeah. And we paid a rickshaw driver who, in all fairness for them, they're just a rickshaw driver. Like, they're not like a— No, it's like a film and TV rickshaw driver. It's just some dude trying to make some cash.

Tommy: Spanish bloke in London.

Josh: Exactly. And so I had the camera and I was trying to get the tracking shot and we couldn't get up the hill.

Tommy: Have you run a marathon before? That was the days when you had Fat Friday.

Jules: Fat Wednesday.

Tommy: Have you run one before?

Jules: Well, that was, I mean, Josh and I, we worked on Fifi and Jules, the radio show, and he was Fifi. And no, and that was a stunt where they lifted a blindfold and said, you got to run a marathon because you're at the start of the London Marathon circuit. And a week later will be the Olympic marathon. This is the path. Admittedly today it's just full of traffic and commuters, but see how far you can run. You know, trainer on one side and a masseuse on the other. And so we tried to have a run, didn't we?

Josh: Yes.

Jules: And so I did run the marathon that day. We didn't film much of it because I was flying.

Josh: Yeah, there was— I, what I remember from that trip is discovering Cadbury did popcorn. Cadbury.

Tommy: What did you discover from that trip?

Jules: If you're going to hire a cameraman.

Josh: That was a lot of uncandid photos, which we've spoken about before.

Tommy: I think we should taper back our swearing on this episode. I didn't swear. No, no, no.

Josh: Have you sworn or no?

Tommy: I haven't sworn either, but we're in the presence of Jules's daughter, Billie.

Josh: So, hello Billie.

Jules: Hello Billie.

Tommy: I know you don't want to, you wouldn't want us to swear.

Josh: Is that being told off by Jules a lot for swearing around kids?

Jules: To be honest, on the way over here, Billy was the DJ and we had to have quite a discussion because Miley was dropping some F-bombs.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Jules: And I said, Billy, like, you can't choose this music. And she goes, but on the radio it's different. It says mess up. And so we, we put on explicit, the explicit content toggle.

Josh: And so then that actually Look, to be honest, Billie's 9.

Jules: She understands that they're swear words, but if she uses them, you don't get to listen to that music, full stop.

Josh: Yeah, I feel like Tommy doesn't care at all when it comes to swearing in front of Bodie.

Tommy: He's said the F-word quite a few times now.

Jules: Not Billie hasn't even said it once.

Tommy: No, the thing is, he still doesn't get it, right? He said, you know who was saying it? Jemima. I haven't even told Mikey this. My brother's little girl. She was just walking around just going—

Josh: so it's coming from Jemima, is it? Jemima's the one. She's—

Jules: how old is she?

Josh: Dropping the seat bomb.

Jules: She's 3 and a half, Bodie's 2 and a half, and she's the bad influence overall. I've got a trash mouth here.

Tommy: No, but seriously, I, I've— I, I have removed my swearing from that.

Jules: Takes a bit. It actually does. Radio days, I was— you, you eventually get good at just cleaning yourself up because it's just too risky, because you'll forget, be casual, and then you'll drop one. But outside of it, yeah, I swear too much, and especially when I'm nervous. So on stage or if I'm emceeing, I'm filthy.

Tommy: Do you remember my wedding? Remember, I think you told me I was swearing.

Jules: And you—

Tommy: your—

Jules: did I heckle you?

Josh: You heckled me.

Tommy: I told you to Fuck off.

Jules: I said, stop swearing. He was swearing because you obviously do it when you're nervous too. He was swearing. He was so nervous. He was swearing. It was offensive. It was the most loving sentiment, what he was saying, but it was a filthy mouth.

Josh: And I mean, and Amy, Amy, Tommy's wife, has a background in like she's— she went to Bible school.

Tommy: I wasn't thinking of my Christian audience on that night.

Jules: Yeah, actually, that storey you dropped was pretty good too, because what did I say?

Tommy: I can't even remember.

Jules: Well, you— I featured it because of the way you and Amy met.

Tommy: That's right. So yeah, I met Amy in Bali at Potato Head, and if it wasn't for Jules's clout at the time, we, we wouldn't be together, essentially. That's pretty— it's pretty good.

Jules: You're welcome.

Tommy: It was good.

Jules: The, the thing was, um, I, I— these girls had said, like, they were chatting, and then I just said, can I just hold you there for a second? And I said, I was thinking to myself, Tommy's single. And so I quickly brought Tommy over, and then once Tommy was there, I might have sort of got a bit pissed. And then when we were in the pool around the cocktail bar with the girls, I ripped his, um, his, uh, It was—

Tommy: and boxers, like, they were underwear. Boxer shorts? Because—

Jules: not boxer shorts, what are those called?

Tommy: Jocks. Jocks.

Jules: I ripped them off, so now he's butt naked stuck in the, in the pool. And then I threw them, and then the next few days later we were jogging past and there was hanging in a branch over Seminyak Beach. Yeah, but it worked.

Tommy: And so you're welcome. I'm cut through sitting there nude next to Amy.

Jules: And then I left him, obviously. There was no help, there was no towel, and she was stuck with this man she just met. And she was quite religious.

Tommy: Yeah, well, at the time she— I mean, she, she had been to Bible college. I mean, if you're pretty religious, if you've ever gone to Bible college. But she was on the back end of doing that, so she was like 3 or 4 years out of Bible college, not still to go.

Jules: She'd never seen a naked body.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jules: And you were quite comfortable because Tommy used to be a stripper.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So you were in your element.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Can't forget Billy's here. I mean, Bodhi did.

Tommy: What?

Josh: I mean, Bodhi said that you had a—

Jules: Yeah, Jemima had some stuff to say about it. But did Ash Williams— you had Ash on the show, I saw on your website.

Tommy: He's good fun.

Jules: So did you guys bond over stripping?

Tommy: Oh no, he was—

Josh: I actually didn't even think to ask him about stripping.

Tommy: Well, he lived in LA and he was a topless waiter at a at a gay bar?

Jules: I think he stripped at one of our friends' hen's parties. Really?

Tommy: Yeah.

Jules: And he just—

Tommy: and why were you there?

Jules: Anna mentioned it to him once and he completely denied it.

Tommy: Oh, okay. So he, so it was like, he doesn't want to tell people.

Jules: No one looks like Ash Williams. Like, he's— do you know what I mean?

Tommy: Like, it's—

Josh: yeah, yeah, unique looking dude.

Tommy: He's an interesting— he's a big androgynous looking fella. No, he looks like—

Jules: Like androgynous seems that he's feminine. He's a good looking long-haired bloke with hair.

Josh: From behind. Am I androgynous? From behind. Where have you, where was the last place you traveled? Were you just in London or did I make that up?

Jules: No, last one was at Byron Bay actually for the Space Series, which was a conference up there, which was quite mind-blowing actually. And I think you should get a lot of the guests on this show because a lot of them were genuine disruptors, innovators, people that lived outside of the, the confirmed, conformed nature of life.

Tommy: So how did you get a spot? How does one get a spot? How does one go and talk at that, at that event like that?

Jules: Well, you pay for it, so you go, and then everyone that goes— basically there's no schedule for— so for 3 days they literally just put up blank schedules and people all turn up with a contribution, a session that they think would add something. And so someone could be talking about, you know, education is broken. The other ones could be talking about their, you know, their adventure, like the Joneses, this couple that walked across the Outback for 1,500 kilometres with a 1-year-old. And so they screened their, their, their sort of documentary that they filmed on their iPhones. And it was incredible. Paul and Tammy Ruse. So Paul Ruse, you know, they do amazing stuff around leadership. So they did a big session and so everyone just contributing their superpower really.

Josh: Because events can go either way, like events can— like there's a lot of events that are—

Tommy: Five Festival?

Josh: Well, not even that, but just like in general, conferences are hard to nail. You've been to a bunch. What do you think are the key takeaways if you're running an event? What are the things that matter that people normally don't think about?

Jules: Well, I actually— what was fascinating, the guest list was curated, so he would have picked the top 50 people that he felt deserved a place, and then he invited those and said, you can come. And then he had a sort of— you had to apply to come to it. And so, and there were people that just didn't, didn't get a spot.

Tommy: They got knocked back.

Jules: And so there was a couple of hundred there at Elements in Byron. It was stunning, big teepees. And, and so having people that were curated and that were a certain caliber, or at least really wanted to contribute, meant that even though you had all these sessions during the day, the most enriched experiences were just casually walking somewhere and chatting to someone. But, you know, everyone from media and entertainment to, you know, like Magda Szabanski was there and she was talking about, you know, the book that she wrote about the Holocaust and what her role her father played in it, who was an assassin, you know.

Tommy: And this— yeah.

Jules: Oh my God. And so, you know, you're having dinner having drinks, and then she's just up sharing stories, and it was just so authentic.

Tommy: But were they capturing it, audio, video?

Jules: I think so, yeah. And you know, one of the other ones that I hope you can get on the show is Diane McGraw, who is in, in the, on the shortlist to go one way to Mars. Yeah, to create the first colony. And so how long would you think it takes to get to Mars?

Tommy: Um, 6 years. I don't know, I sort of highballed it, I think.

Josh: I think you lowballed maybe. I'm—

Jules: why?

Tommy: No, no, I don't know.

Josh: I was gonna say 15 years.

Jules: See, I was thinking it could take like they get halfway, then they have kids, and those kids go there.

Josh: Like, I—

Tommy: yeah, yeah.

Josh: How many years?

Jules: 8 months. Oh wow.

Tommy: So I was thinking how long does it take to get to the moon? 3 months.

Josh: Why can't you fucking get— oh, sorry, we're not swearing. Why can't— I'll be calm. Why can't they get back there?

Jules: Yeah, because it's like, you've got plenty of time. Yeah, well, they're going off on 20— 2031 is when they're launching, and I think they're down to about 100, and then it gets down to 12, and then I think the first one gets down to 4, right? And what's fascinating about it is that the atmosphere, the gravity, so you cannot launch from up there. So to launch from here, the amount of equipment, fuel, and actually the thousands of people that contribute to being able to launch a rocket At the other end, you don't have that. And what's more is if you were to jump out of, um, uh, if you were to— I was just having flashbacks to Martian. So because, you know, Martian, what he had to do was film Josh— Matt Damon. Matt Damon had to get back up to the shuttle, right, because they weren't able to take off. So if you were to jump out of a vessel with a parachute it would do nothing. You just hit the ground and die. So the— you just can't get any launch. So the only way to land there is to do reverse, um, jet thrusters. Do you know what I mean?

Tommy: Otherwise you just get the, the things that Musk has. Those things that come down, they're like— yeah, it looks like it's in reverse.

Josh: But then what's there?

Jules: Oh, fuck all.

Tommy: Yeah, I heard there's a Starbucks.

Josh: Yeah, no, but I mean, what—

Jules: no, no, there's just red dirt and what they have to then do.

Tommy: And it's extremely hot.

Josh: But it's also extremely hot.

Jules: I don't know if it's extremely hot. It's just because it's red dirt. It's colder than here.

Tommy: So I—

Josh: It's colder than Melbourne.

Jules: You just thought that the dust and dirt should be blue then.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense.

Jules: The place isn't blue.

Tommy: I interviewed a guy in Shepparton who was going for that. He wouldn't have made it past the stage. So it's been years. It would have been 3 years ago.

Josh: If we find anything about your contacts in Shepparton—

Tommy: They're all—

Jules: They wouldn't have passed the drug test.

Tommy: He had a link to Shepparton, he didn't live there anymore.

Josh: Was it the barista?

Tommy: Wasn't that good? Definitely not the barista from yesterday's episode that said he was— his uncle owned 2xU and had a jet. It turned out to be bullshit. Some guy spun me a bullshit storey which I said on yesterday's episode.

Josh: We had the previous, uh, it's fairly embarrassing.

Tommy: Have you done that? I mean, you've had done a lot of interviews. Have you stuffed Oh, you would have royally stuffed that up. Never, never, never done it.

Jules: Never had a mistake in my life, especially not on air.

Josh: Actually, that's what I was, that's what I was just thinking about. You taught me, um, what on radio while you were on air, you taught, uh, taught me what shelving was.

Tommy: Did I?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You didn't say we're not gonna swear.

Josh: Yeah, well, no, I think this is fine because it's, you made a shelving joke and then the airlock was like, oh, we can't. Oh, oh, oh. And I was like, well, what's, what's all that about? And then it wasn't until you got pulled in.

Jules: Basically, it's usually about chapter 3 in the IKEA catalog.

Josh: Exactly. But it was, it was pretty— I remember that being an eye-opener.

Jules: Well, I'm glad that I contributed to your vast knowledge. But the, the Mars thing is exciting. The reason why, what I think is a lot of people didn't get through, and this is what was really fascinating, is they're taking ordinary people. So they're not— even though Diane, who I hope you get to chat to, is a cyborg, like she's just so amazing. Like she— I think she's in her 50s or 50, and her body age would be 25. And she sleeps and she's very regimented and she's incredible. And you can— you just— she looks like she should be an astronaut. But the other people that they've got, they've got like, you know, just average people. Do you think Turkish pop stars? And, you know, like it's not They, they want real normal people to go up there. They still have to pass psychological tests because you're basically— it's a one-way ticket. You're not coming back. She said to her mum, look, I've got a new job, you know, it looks like. And her mum's like, congratulations, tell me more about it. She goes, I can't yet. Because her mum, you know, like, you basically— all your loved ones, you're saying goodbye to them forever.

Josh: Don't you need like special skills? Surely they'll draw the line.

Jules: They want them.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jules: You got to be able to do poo because that's what you grow all your food out of.

Josh: Really?

Jules: Wow.

Tommy: Of course. He hasn't seen The Martian.

Josh: I haven't seen it either.

Jules: You seen Titanic?

Josh: I have actually seen Titanic.

Jules: I don't want to give you a spoiler alert, but it ends badly.

Josh: Have they rebuilt the— Is that what Clive Palmer was doing? Was he rebuilding the Titanic?

Jules: I don't know, but don't repeat history. That's what my history teacher used to say.

Tommy: There's a Titanic restaurant in Williamstown where you walk in and it moves like the entrance sort of does a bit of movement.

Josh: I think I'd vomit.

Jules: Bit of Celine Dion in the background.

Josh: The last time that we spoke, you just raised 10-odd million.

Jules: Yep, spent it all.

Josh: That's why I'm here. What is the deal? Like, once that goes through, does it literally appear in Tribe's bank account?

Tommy: Well, for people that aren't in business or in startup would just see the number and go, what the— you've got all that cash?

Jules: Yeah. Well, I mean, for the people that didn't listen to the other 14 hours of interview. So I've got a startup called Tribe that I launched about 4 years ago. And the idea of a startup is because you're building technology, it costs a lot and you see an opportunity, you go, let's go for that. But if you wait around to just become profitable or for the profit to come in above your expenses to reinvest, you know, like a business will go, look, we've got enough profit now, let's reinvest it to grow this business. You basically get outside investments. You get other people that go, hey, if I give you $10 I hope it turns into $100 million, you know, in 5 years' time. And so what you do is at different points you raise that money and basically what they're doing is they're buying parts of the business.

Josh: And where do those business— where do those bits sit before they buy it? Do people like you who own bits give it up?

Jules: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, like it started, I started with 100% and then I slowly get down because, you know, and you get it, you give it to staff, you know, people. In a startup world, you don't have a lot of money. So you're sort of saying to people, hey, I want you to work for this, but also here's, here's a bit of the company so that you— because the reality is you've got to work so hard and it doesn't work in a 9-to-5 realm. So people need to get paid for their wage. They've got to enjoy that they're building something that can be massive, but it's incredibly high risk. So the idea is that that money comes in and you get that money by saying to people, right, that money is going to last 18 months, and in those 18 months we're going to do this with the business. If you give us that money, we'll do this with the business. So they give you the money. If for whatever reason you don't do that with the business and you don't increase and grow at the rate— always going to grow— if you don't grow at the rate you should, then, um, then— and obviously you're running out of money because you're spending all that money to get there. The next time you go out and say, right, we need another $10 million, they say, what are you going to do with this $10 million? You say, we're going to grow like this. And they say, why would we believe you when you said that last time and you didn't? And so you can really—

Tommy: it—

Jules: there's enormous amount of pressure on the timing because your business can be absolutely perfect, but the category can go badly. So we're in influencer marketing, and I reckon it's just about to finally open up. But at the moment—

Tommy: you would say that?

Jules: Well, at the moment, no, that's the sceptic that most investors probably say. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

Tommy: They go, Jules, you would say that, wouldn't you?

Jules: Of course. Yeah. And so you find yourself— no, but you do. Like I say to— I'm optimistic about it. Like I see how all the play is going to happen. But if it doesn't, then you lose credibility and you say, well, you said that last time, didn't happen. So you really got to predict the future. You've got to— you can't just predict it. You actually then have to try to make it happen. And if there's market forces that don't allow you to, your bubble keeps getting bigger and, you know, it feels you're growing. But if you, if you can't deliver on it, it's a, it's a really frightening thing. And there's not a lot of margin for error, which is why so many, so many just fall into a heap or they just stop.

Josh: So is it 12 months or how long are those each of those sort of milestones?

Jules: Well, funnily enough, it takes you 12 months to convince someone to give you money at times. And so even when you've got money, you're already out there telling the storey for the next.

Josh: And does it almost change? So when you started getting that $10 million, by the time you got it, had the market changed to the point where you actually had to say, okay, now that we're all across it, here's X, Y, and Z that's actually changed in the market?

Tommy: We—

Jules: you don't go into that much detail. I mean, I, I would prefer to because that's my bread and butter where I can just say, well, here are the market forces, the reasons. But often there's reason you've got to identify what the reasons for growth are. And some of times it's your own platform. So we go, right, we're really good at getting customers, but the customers aren't happy with it, right? Um, uh, with the influencer content, there might not be enough, so they haven't spent all their money, right? So maybe they say that, or they go, look, we had a really great experience and it was a perfect campaign. Um, we will love to use it again, but the reality is It's a, it's an influencer campaign and we only do those every 8 months. And so they love you, but yet the category isn't always on. So people aren't going, right, I'm going to do influencer marketing, you know, always on a campaign that runs, that the campaign can turn into Father's Day to Mother's Day to Christmas, which it should. But, but the, the, the maturity of the market and the way brands see it just hasn't arrived yet. And so all of the— and plus thousands more, you know, whether it's the right staff member that's able to find the strategy, whether it's the right strategy, like it just goes on. And your ability is to try and turn dials, tiny dials, because you can't do big dramatic things because that's too risky. And everyone goes, you should be doing this. And you know, the worst part is, you know what you have to do, but because you're building tech, it takes so much money and time to do it.

Tommy: I was actually just going to point out one thing on the app. Oh, great. I'm joking. I'm joking. But you've I've had that a lot.

Jules: Is it that we've shadow banned you? So basically shadow banned.

Tommy: Yeah, I was actually, I can't access it for some reason. Yeah, it's probably because I don't have enough followers. When does it shift from being a startup to a business?

Jules: To a scale up.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jules: So when you go startup and then scale up, to be honest, Uber still calls themselves a startup.

Tommy: So is that because they're still in debt?

Jules: Yeah. And they'll be in debt.

Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. Is that the definition of a business that's still in debt?

Josh: They probably have beanbags at the office. I think that's part of the definition.

Jules: I think it's the hoverboard next to the ping pong table.

Josh: It's, yeah, it's interesting that the different markets that you're playing in because there's obviously the Australian market and then there's the stuff that you're doing in New York. Are they like in the US? Are they siloed? Are you saying a bit?

Jules: Yeah, they're almost different customers. So New York has a more mature digital market and so they understand digital a lot better and they— well, they've got better infrastructure, they have better infrastructure and that's the reality of it. And they also have a They're just so much more enthusiastic about technology.

Tommy: What is that like? I just think it's more—

Jules: it's— I just think they got in there earlier and there's— it's a more competitive market, more money at stake as well, I guess.

Josh: Is it easier to get brands or influencers from your side of things?

Jules: Brands.

Josh: Really?

Jules: Yeah. I mean, we look, we get influencers just come and, you know, we can always scale that up. But the brands, it's the— in America they see a big problem and they need a big solution. Whereas here, um, I mean, Anta, CEO, disagrees with this in some respects, but for me in Australia, so we're a tech solution where you can aggregate 100 micro influencers for a campaign in like days and it's really cheap and the content all comes through before you've really paid a cent. You've got to still pay for your budget and commit to the platform, but you've still got a bit of flexibility on making sure that the content that appears in front of you is actually on brand before it gets published.

Tommy: So you—

Jules: in Australia, it's not that big a market, there's not that big an influence and the budgets aren't that massive. You could conceivably just do that yourself. Yeah, it's annoying, but I could pull together 50 or 100.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jules: I could, and if I worked with an agency, they could do it pretty easily too, right? In America, you just can't.

Josh: Yeah. Well, if you, if you're doing a, if you want to do a user-generated thing in your Oreo or whatever, you might want to reach 100,000 people or something.

Jules: Well, it's just, it's, and so we've been building for scale. So it's a self-serve platform that we want to do it on a really big scale. And so Americans need that scale because they don't want to just do a campaign with 20 micro-influencers. Wow. We just reached 1.3 million people or something. You know, in America, it's not even worth spending your time and your money on that. Like, you've got to be reaching tens of millions. And so where I love it is that doesn't necessarily mean you have to aggregate 1,000 micro-influencers. But what I like and what I'm excited about is that influencer-generated content. And it goes to the next step, which is, you know, influencers, you know, traditionally create the content they posted to their feed. But we've got the content that brands love so much and they just use it in their own social advertising, their own billboards. I love the idea that it just becomes customer-generated content, which means any customer— you go to Target, you buy a jacket, you walk out, you get an email that says, hey, win the price of your jacket back, just email in a photo of you wearing it. And all of a sudden the brand has this sort of stock image library of content shot by their own customers at scale and at speed. That, that really excites me. So over there, what can brands do with all of our content when they put it into social or put it into outdoor, which is billboards, etc.?

Josh: Has, has the idea of chasing the long tail, which I guess all of those smaller micro customers are, is that a shift in Tribe's original business model, do you think?

Jules: No, we started like that, but probably too early. So in retrospect, I wonder whether, like, we were just built for long tail self-serve. Jump on, create your brief, get your content. But it's— you then need to be able and you sort of hope word spreads through word of mouth, but you need a pretty sophisticated digital marketing team because you're reaching the long tail.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: Your product is built for the long tail, you need to tell the long tail, but you need an enormous amount of money to be able to speak to all of those customers. Whereas the other end, which is non-long tail, which is big companies, you can basically go in there as a salesperson and get their team around a table and talk to them and their budget might be $50 grand.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: And so we were very good at that. So even though we were building for long tail, our sales infrastructure and the way was you know, sort of almost hand-to-hand combat.

Josh: It's almost like a loyalty programme in some regards.

Jules: I love that. I absolutely— I think that Target example absolutely is. And fashion brands love that because they need, you know, they, they can't have something that's 6 months old. Their content needs to be, you know, get it in straight away, put it in their social ads, and then a month later it's gone.

Josh: Well, it's gamifying stuff. We even talk about like we've got the Gronk Squad, which are the people that listen to our show.

Jules: And wow, that's mean.

Josh: I think we're all gronks. You're a gronk too. You're actually— you're a king fucking gronk.

Jules: But, um, can we put that as the tweet? Jules Lund, you're the king gronk. The king gronk.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely. Um, but no, I think that it's interesting, the gamification of this stuff around creating community, where it's like rather than it being cleared always transactional as well, like just cash. I find it interesting.

Tommy: I think you look at like someone like Frank Boddy, the user-generated content is amazing, was the snowstorm that became the business, right? And so that's like perfect world, you can actually do that. Yeah, but how do you do that? That's a million dollars.

Jules: And also, um, what about the 98% of brands that don't have fanaticism?

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: From there. So it's very easy for brands that have, they put their hashtag in and everyone's celebrating Tesla or everyone's celebrating Nutella. But what about every other brand, all the brands that are starting off? And so it's about, um, it's about activating, um, everyday customers to make them think, oh yeah, I can actually get rewarded for genuinely expressing a brand that I already use and love, have paid for. And as you say, it's like a loyalty because you know, you can win back vouchers that keep you in the— keep you coming back to that same e-commerce platform, for instance.

Josh: That's really interesting. Should we do the Fat Friday? Should we get Fat Friday?

Tommy: I was just going to say, throughout the— throughout this whole journey, how many years? 4 now?

Jules: Yeah.

Josh: Has it only been 4 years?

Jules: Yeah.

Josh: It feels like so much, like so much time.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jules: I aged about 10 years in the first 2.

Tommy: You were more—

Josh: there's also a tipping point in age, I feel. When you get to a certain age, you're getting younger because I don't know if it's a startup, but I— don't you agree with that?

Tommy: So like you hit a point where you can't really tell they're either 25 or 35. Yeah, there's like a switch and then it's like you're either— well, I turned Jules's age or 70.

Josh: 40 or 70.

Jules: I turned 40 a couple of months ago, so I don't like it.

Tommy: But I was actually thinking today, 30, best. Yeah, feeling the best. Feel good. What's wrong with 40? I mean, you're, you're more responsible than you've ever been. No, you've got more responsibility than you ever have.

Jules: I want to be more responsible.

Tommy: I think you're a better person.

Jules: I know I have been, but I'm more boring.

Tommy: No, but isn't it?

Josh: But you have to stress less about getting in trouble for shit now.

Jules: Different parts of life, like responsibility. With power comes great responsibility. You know, you, you are more responsible, but that is— therein lies the, the burden.

Tommy: But doesn't it feel like you have ownership over— like you, you, you've created the ship, you know, you've got— you can have real ownership.

Josh: He doesn't own the whole ship.

Tommy: Yeah, well, and he's had to sell off part of the ship.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Jules: No, but I'm meaning as you as a person, and I have autonomy, but you know, the autonomy that I get to make the decisions are within a very specified, um, uh, list of parameters.

Tommy: Okay, reframe it. It gives you purpose.

Jules: Well, I've certainly got purpose.

Tommy: Then what more could you want?

Jules: Freedom.

Tommy: Freedom. But then, I mean, that's a hard one because where's your purpose once you've got the freedom? I think sometimes the struggle, sometimes the, the friction can create a real purpose.

Jules: Yeah, but You know, like I'd imagine if, you know, I walked out of this with some money.

Tommy: This podcast, definitely not happening.

Josh: If you find it anywhere, please let us know. If it's in this building.

Jules: Really? You cheque down the back of those couch pillows.

Tommy: There'll be nothing there, see that?

Jules: I think, you know, because I often wonder like, what do you do if you did sell a business and would you be lost without purpose? But I think you've got to then—

Josh: I mean, you've got a family.

Jules: Yeah. And I also think, you know, purpose can be you know, giving back. And also I think artistry, like I love photography, I would love to take photos. There's absolute purpose there of expressing an art form, but it doesn't come with— shouldn't come with stress. I want to be busy, but stress and pressure is very different.

Josh: When was the last time that you worked when you weren't stressed?

Jules: Yeah, I live in a constant state of stress even when I don't need to. I think I just—

Josh: it's like a blanket I just pull over me because maybe that's Maybe that's the thing too, right? Which is it's like there's all these things like— because I, I do it all the time too, where it's like, I— it would be so much better if X, Y, and Z. But then that is so much part of your DNA and who you are.

Jules: I believe, I genuinely believe that that just takes management and you've got to be really— I would hope absolutely dangerous. Imagine you— I did achieve those things and someone with me without purpose would get pretty depressed. Like, the opposite of stress is But I— you would have to really manage it and restructure. But I'm pretty, I'm pretty clear now on what is the most important thing in life. Where the tension sits is that I'm not able to live it. Whereas years ago I thought the value was in the fame or the fortune or the business, whereas it is just with my family. And so it's funny, I'm in a tunnel. I'm very aware that, you know what, how much more— like, what do I actually need? And I actually am not even proving myself to anyone, but I've started this thing I actually am very passionate about the overarching ability or opportunity to change the face of advertising in a really creative, disruptive way. Like, that excites me, like, oh, all day long. But it comes at a sacrifice I already realise is probably too costly.

Tommy: So now what?

Josh: I think we get out the Fat Friday.

Jules: I think we ate— that was an obvious try to lunch.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, what's the, what's the biggest thing you've learned about yourself over this journey?

Jules: Well, I've learned resilience.

Josh: Um, what does that mean?

Jules: Well, it's really tough and you really, you don't have a choice but to sort of pick yourself up. And in those moments where you think it's all Oh, this, you know, it just gets tough and you go, God, we're in, you know, trouble here. We won't be able to rise. Like before the last rise, um, what was it?

Josh: What are, what are the worst-case scenarios that actually went into your mind?

Jules: Oh, the embarrassment of it going, oh, there was this amazing thing and we just literally just, yeah, we ran out of money. Like literally you can make almost any mistake, but if you run out of money, they take you out of the game. It's over. No matter how amazing. And people would just say that as a fail.

Josh: What would that, what would life look like? What if that hadn't have happened, uh, you know, what, what's ended up happening has happened. I guess that's the other interesting thing. If we think of anxiety is worrying about things that are in the future, startups by design are anxiety-inducing because it's always on this trajectory to looking at what it's going to be.

Jules: Annoyingly, the future always looks bright in my— so I'm a, I'm a long-term optimist, but a short-term pessimist.

Josh: Yeah, but the only thing is we all, we have is the present, which is the short term.

Tommy: I know.

Josh: Yeah, but I, I think I'm the same in regards to like the thing that excites me about the show is actually not talking with you now. It's talking to you in 10 years and it being a bigger show and a different show. Like the present for me has always felt like the step that I'm having to take just to eventually get to the place I want to be.

Tommy: We talked about yesterday, it's the where we are now is not where we want to be.

Josh: It's the 3 Day Deal is bringing out. Please come on in, 3 Day Deal.

Tommy: So this is a, um, I thought about you, Jules, and I thought, what do you love? It's Nando's. That was more when we got it for free.

Jules: No, I still like Nando's. We went to Nando's last week. We go between Guzman and Nando's.

Tommy: Yeah, but the other thing I thought was your freezer, um, is filled with Ben Jerry's ice cream. Yeah, and look at little Bill. She's—

Jules: I know, we've only got 4 tubs, Billy, and there's only 3 of us, so it's bad news for you. We all wanted one tub and 3.3 recurring.

Josh: Should we get bowls as well?

Tommy: Yeah, we should get a little bowl. I don't know what your favourite flavour is, so we got 4.

Jules: It's amazing.

Tommy: What is your favourite flavor?

Jules: Fish food.

Tommy: Fish food. See, I said that.

Josh: Did we get fish food or not? It wasn't at Woolies.

Tommy: It wasn't there, 3D Dill? Okay. Yeah, I knew it was a fish food one.

Jules: To be honest, it's not fish food. I just say that because I want to— It's not there. I'm doing a radio show. It's not your family.

Josh: Hey, awkward bomb dropped!

Tommy: No, because Because what I did was I yelled out, fish fruit!

Jules: And they were like, what?

Tommy: Yak fish?

Jules: And then Ben Jerry's ice cream. Do you know the best slogan of all time? You love this. And this is brave marketing. And last few years I feel like there's been a lot more of it. But their slogan was the ice cream with less ice cream in it.

Tommy: Oh yeah, we've talked about this. That's genius because it means that there's more bits. And as someone, you could probably relate.

Jules: He got more bits. How many nipples you got?

Josh: No, I do like more bits. As a general rule, you want the most amount of bits.

Tommy: You want, mate, you want Violet, like the crumble in that fucking hokey pokey.

Jules: Like, don't you get big bits? How much pressure do you put on the ice cream guy?

Tommy: Do you agree?

Josh: People have had mental breakdowns based on me staring them down.

Jules: But they're standing there and you know they've got the rocky road and they're just going for vanilla. Yeah. And you're there going, mate, if you don't get on that other side, all the, like, the, the honeycomb fudge and stuff, you're there, you're just looking at them going, if you don't hit that vein, mate, I'm gonna hit yours.

Tommy: There's a place, uh, I think in Albert Park, an ice cream shop, amazing. But I've got a trick. So you get, uh, 2 scoop, but you want the one flavour that you want the most of.

Jules: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Tommy: So you want that first one, right?

Jules: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So it's more and it goes in, do you think? Yeah, don't stuff up. Don't get it on the top because the second—

Jules: So you don't give them two, you just give them one.

Tommy: I'm thinking that one and then you know exactly what you want. But you're just saying, I mean, Josh's technique with the avocado.

Josh: No, no, no. Mad Mex or Guzmani, any of those places.

Tommy: This is a good one. This is a good one.

Josh: Guzmani.

Jules: Guzman.

Tommy: Guzman.

Jules: Guzman y Gomez.

Josh: Guzman y Gomez. No, Guzman y. Guzman y. No. Didn't we look up that whole— How do you say it? I've just made ads for them.

Tommy: How do you say it though?

Jules: Guzmaní Gomez.

Josh: No, Mr. Nice hasn't got a 97 Enterscore.

Jules: I know, and he spent way too much time— oh my God, I talked to them, I'm emailing the marketing team today, and I've been on stage with Lara Thomas, the CMO. Okay, she says Guzman, and I believe her, and the founder. I've met Steven. He says Guzman.

Josh: Guzmaní. No, the Y is— he does a soft Y.

Jules: It's a space. The Y means and. Guzmán y, which is a Y, Gómez. Okay, anyway, my pronunciation was— G-Y-G, call it G-Y-G.

Josh: Anyway, if you go to G-Y-G, Mad Max, any of those places, uh, we don't, we go to Guzman. Yeah, they do do, um, it's much better than—

Jules: Oh, you're embarrassed because you're about to say how you shoplift.

Josh: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not guac at all. What I do is, um, I even do this at Chipotle. US. Never heard of it. US brand.

Jules: No, but they don't have Guzman over there yet, do they?

Josh: No, but they, um, I think they launched one.

Tommy: Check it out. Has GYG launched in America?

Jules: Singapore and Japan, they're owning that. Growing fast.

Josh: The, um, what you do is you ask for meat, and then once they've put on the first amount of meat, say, actually, can I have double meat? Yeah, because what they've done is they've anchored, they've anchored the first amount of meat, and then you double the—

Jules: because this is your, um, coffee cup thing.

Tommy: Oh yeah, it's just a bunch of scumbags trying to look for loopholes. That's exactly—

Jules: can I give you one more? And this isn't a loophole, this is a life hack.

Tommy: Life hack.

Josh: Okay.

Jules: And I don't know if you do this, but every time you get out of an Uber, what do I say?

Tommy: Oh, every— I think I've mentioned on this show, 5 stars.

Jules: 5 stars. Because what do you do? You get out and he's got the confidence that you're giving him 5 stars, he gives you 5 stars every time. My rating's through the roof and I get out and I give them 1.

Josh: Is it? I mean, with the— with Tribe, what I'm curious about is, do you— you talk about you provide a cheap option for brands. Is there a risk in doing what Uber's done with drivers, in commoditizing so much that it squeezes that end of the, of the market?

Jules: So it cheapens, do you mean? Well, you just need more and more volume. So the reality is like brands need so much volume of content.

Josh: Very quickly, should we just— we use one spoon. For each flavor. We get all of our flavours and then we all pick one of the spoons. Yes.

Jules: Far out. When did you think that through? Because I don't even— I didn't even— did you do that last night?

Josh: No, I was thinking about it when you were answering. I was just like, I saw him about to do— TJ about to do something.

Jules: So what will you say that again?

Josh: What I'm saying is, because we've got 3 punnets in front of— 4 punnets.

Tommy: 4, mate. Just dish out the one with old mate on here.

Jules: They can't see that.

Josh: Can I have—

Tommy: yeah, they're watching YouTube, dude.

Josh: There's a camera. You're so engrossed.

Jules: I would have played up to that camera so much better. No, I don't even look to it.

Tommy: Did you not even see that there?

Josh: Cool.

Jules: Hi guys. Um, hey, if you're listening at home, get online.

Josh: So what I'm— do we have one more spoon or no?

Tommy: There's one more.

Josh: Okay, so what I was saying is, can I have the And Jules, you can go first because you can get the middle, because the middle bits are—

Jules: no, it's not a core. There's— so none of these are Ben Jerry's core. Ben Jerry's core has literally—

Josh: go on, he's furious. There's no— what do you mean there's no core?

Jules: Um, so there's, um, Ben Jerry's core, which will have— some of them will have just caramel, like, in the middle. Yeah, right in the middle. Or there'll be peanut butter right in the middle. These are spread throughout, so I wouldn't assume that the best bits in the middle.

Tommy: Okay. Oh geez, I got a good bit in the middle.

Josh: One interesting thing about—

Jules: I love that you both said go first. You've both absolutely—

Josh: No, well, there's— help yourself to whichever one. The great thing about Ben Jerry's is they're actually very socially conscious. Did you know this?

Jules: I did. Are you guys going to then take this and not send it to them. Send it to them.

Josh: We should. We've been having real issues about trying to get free stuff lately.

Tommy: Well, I think there's probably a—

Jules: it's not big enough. They probably have a threshold.

Josh: Yeah. But we're hoping with people like you, we just like leverage.

Jules: I'm happy to say a free endorsement because when you love a brand, this is the point of Tribe, to be honest. When you love a brand, you want to tell people, you want to talk about Red Rock Deli chips. My God.

Josh: Yeah. Like they're a good product, aren't they?

Jules: Ben Jerry's. This one's good. Corona. Red Rock Deli chips. Either Nando's or GYG, which I love. And, um, oh, that looks good.

Tommy: It's a caramel, caramel oozing out of the middle of this one. Triple caramel.

Jules: What are your favourite brands of all time?

Josh: Favorite brands of all time?

Tommy: Oh, not food related or just brands?

Jules: Just Apple. You're Apple. I mean, I've become a bit disenfranchised with Apple because of that friggin stupid watch you're wearing.

Josh: Yeah, well, just there's a few, there's a few issues. I went through 4 MacBook Pros.

Jules: I remember you and I have— we're— the problem with being an early adopter, you deal with all the shit. You're an early adopter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Haim is the same. Haim is the earliest adopter. Yeah. With tech, he'll just, he'll double down on tech.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: And I used to—

Josh: well, you even did the VR stuff as well. Yeah.

Jules: And I Well, I bought Tommy—

Tommy: I've got one, but once again, the office—

Jules: no, but once again, it wears off. I bought the Apple Watch.

Tommy: I'm glad you said it because I wasn't going to say it. Of course, when you bought it, that's why I didn't buy it.

Josh: It's a novelty.

Jules: I didn't want the guilt looking me in the face, sitting on my shelf. It's $350 just staring at me.

Josh: Uh, Jill, you can go get the ice cream and help yourselves as well, and get some for Billy.

Tommy: I've already given her some ice cream. He was too focused on building out a fortress.

Jules: You're not going to shit for a week.

Josh: I was trying to do every single flavor.

Jules: Yeah, but yeah, portions. You're allowed to do that.

Josh: It's Fat Fridays. When else are you going to do it? Have you— do you think you've got body image, uh, issues?

Jules: Yeah.

Tommy: Have you been fat?

Jules: Yeah, well, my— yeah, I could show you some photos, but yeah, my gut. I, I look at bread and I get a gut.

Tommy: Well, you— so there was a— I mean, in Getaway, you've been on TV, you were in TV for quite a while.

Jules: But the problem is they stopped sending me to the beach because you know why?

Josh: Why?

Jules: Because I used to go to the beach and wear a black rashie and they were like— like when they hired me, I was fit as—

Josh: yeah.

Jules: And then can you look up on, um, YouTube, on Google? And then I just— and so they had to hire people that wouldn't wear big black rashies. One day I wore a white one. Don't ever do that.

Josh: What have you done? What's the most extreme thing that you've done in regards to trying to stay slim or lose weight?

Jules: Oh, I thought you meant on Getaway. They would have opened up a whole can of great stories. Instead, I'm talking dieting, um, while eating Ben Jerry's. Oh, this is a juxtaposition.

Josh: You mean diet?

Tommy: I think you meant dieting.

Josh: Dieting. I thought it was a way of saying, like, just on the ciggies, just a pack a day, try and lose weight. I mean, because I thought it was interesting. I was listening to, um, Gondi's got a podcast and he had, um, Smolzy on. He was talking about all of his—

Jules: I haven't listened to the names. I forget about radio. Why did that start? Why can't you just have Graham and that? Why did it always grah grah? Like, you could just— is it like, what did you say? Gondi, Smolzy, Loey, Big Z, Big Z, Bag Lady.

Josh: Did you nearly have a name? Did you have a name outside of Jules?

Jules: No, but, um, they always just, just— oh God.

Josh: But anyway, Smallsy was talking about his, uh, he reckons that people who are behind a microphone or people who are on camera and all that sort of thing are basically— most of them are doing it based on some form of insecurity, which normally comes out in something in regards to whether it's weight or food or—

Tommy: well, you're just more having to be more conscious because it's a part of your job, right?

Jules: No, I think what he's saying is—

Tommy: I personally wasn't listening—

Jules: you get into the industry because you want validation or attention.

Josh: And that's the thing that—

Jules: why can't you just be an entertainer? Why, why does the medium change that? Like, years ago you could be a theatregoer or something, you know, an actor. Why, why, why can't it actually just be the arts as opposed to, um—

Josh: well, the audience changes that, I think.

Jules: The dirty nature of fame. Well, I mean, admittedly, I've always been an attention seeker, but I also do enjoy getting reactions out of people. And then if I— but I did then as a young person go, I want fame and fortune. Like, it was dirty and filthy, and like, I just want more attention at a greater scale with money.

Tommy: I think these initial goals, as much as in hindsight they're a bit negative, like, yeah, they're okay for the meantime to get you to that next step.

Jules: It's when people get caught up in the shit Yeah, and they don't know, they don't recalibrate. Yeah, because what you learn very quickly when you do it is you go, oh, this is really annoying, the fame side. And the money, um, it's just great. I miss it.

Josh: With the, the fame bit, what was the— what's the most outrageous thing that you've had to deal with based on— oh, you just get your fame, you get—

Jules: so automatically you need, especially in Australia, you need to be taken down a couple of pegs. And so, and honestly, at pubs and stuff, often it's females, right? But guys, yeah, they would just, they would just, they would imagine walking up to somebody, you think you're so good, and I, and it's my job to tell you you're not. But, but if you don't think you're so good, they're not taking you down a couple of pegs, they're just actually making you feel horrible.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jules: And so it's just like bullying.

Tommy: So what's interesting though, what you did, the medium you were on was TV, short, sharp pieces where they're not getting— it's not like a podcast where they're hearing your beliefs, it's not your personality, it's just a character.

Jules: Imagine how hard it is then being an actor. You don't even know who the person is, haven't you heard from them?

Tommy: Yeah, who the hell's Tom Cruise? That level of fame would be better for him.

Jules: Well, yeah, until he, until he became him and got on Oprah's couch, and then you go, oh, hang on a sec. So You're absolutely right. But a lot of people shouldn't— shouldn't be met. I remember a lot of people in the entertainment industry are odd. They should just be— they should just— you should only experience them through that one.

Josh: I mean, you had a good portion of time where every year you were hosting the red carpet of the Logies.

Tommy: Did you get the callback this year? It just happened last weekend. Were you there? Did I?

Josh: No. Well, I'm curious because I didn't read any of the articles, but I saw a lot of the headlines which were something along the lines of, the low years need to end now.

Tommy: Who was that?

Jules: To be honest, I did what I— I didn't know it was on, but the next morning I saw, and then I watched Tom Gleeson's—

Josh: it was great—

Jules: his speech. And it was— and I sent it to a friend. I just— it was just— wasn't it fascinating in our lifetime to see something just lose its shine?

Tommy: It was—

Jules: it's actually It feels yuck. Like, and how he talked about it on stage, and he's not lying. His view of it is pretty accurate to what it does. Truth.

Josh: Like, what makes it funny is the level of truth.

Tommy: Can you summarise what he said? Because I didn't watch it.

Josh: Well, he literally, he sort of said this whole thing's dumb. I won the award and I was saying that it was dumb. Isn't this just all a big joke?

Jules: Well, it's more than that. The bottom line is when TV was such an— was the main media in this country, that it held so much power because all the money was there, which means you brought all the— all the eyeballs were there, then the money comes, and then you've got to get the talent. And so the calibre of talent got better and better.

Josh: Was the money— just quickly, I remember hearing a quote that was TV, uh, TV— oh, radio, you buy the house, TV, you buy the pool. Is that right? Like, as in you make more money in radio than you do TV?

Jules: Yeah, you do. But there's few— I suppose there was probably less people in radio. You remember there's only so much real estate, you know, whereas on TV there could be a show like Hey Hey and there's 15 or 20 people that are getting that, but there's no radio show with 15 or 20 people.

Tommy: Sure.

Jules: So the real estate collectively. Yeah. So those people that are smaller and also So that's through a lens of talent, which you've got to imagine that TV and radio, say an hour commands the same amount of advertising dollars, right? So because you've got— you're reaching the same amount of people on radio or on TV, the production costs— think about the price that it costs from lighting, grips, camera. You know, if you ever went into a TV studio, researchers, 1 hour is so big. Now the talent is only 1 of 50, right? Whereas on radio you literally have some microphones and it all comes down to 1 or 2 voices or 3 voices and then a couple of people helping on phones and some people on the desk. But the production price. So it means if, if those 2 individuals, the talent, can hold all of that advertising dollar, they should get it all.

Josh: I'm sorry, I'm eating ice cream while you're talking.

Jules: It's fine. It's just the fact that you've dripped some on your crotch.

Josh: Well, One thing I've noticed too is radio. It seems like they're, they're getting more producers. I noticed this with like Jason PJ or Kyle and Jack. It feels like they've always had a sort of ensemble cast of producers. Why do you think that is? Or do you think there are just a few breakfast shows?

Jules: I think possibly the talent know that there's only very few of them. They're not, they're not developing too many more. I mean, there's talent sort of coming through, right? And but they're not there's not this huge influx. Like, you think of all the talent that is rising up in other medias, right? Not in television, mind you, but in others it's just huge. Whereas in radio it's a very specific skill set. And what's happening is the old, um, the old guard isn't being replaced by the new guard. The old guard is just going around to another station, knocking on— it's just like, um, musical chairs, right? So that's how is it's so non-competitive that those talent have— like, I could go back to radio and I would love to go back to radio, but if it was any other place, I'd be irrelevant and they would have moved on 10 times over. But for some reason, radio, it doesn't seem to be surfacing or investing in those. And so what happens is brand executives either go, either go, let's do a really big name, and they bring the big name in there or they go, let's go with an absolute nobody at the other end. And so they sort of can't win. And looking at Today FM Breakfast, which I worked on, you know, and they've had like 5 or 6 since Kyle and Jack left, they've tried it all. They started with some big names like Mel B was in our show, you know, what does that look like? Then they're like, nah, we're going to go Dan and Maz the other end. And then they're like, do you know what? It's going to take us 5 or 10 years in order for people to actually know who Dan and Maz are, you know, in billboards, like to really give them a 360 personality. So they moved over, they went back to a big name which was Rove. And so they're trialling all, all of those things.

Josh: And so what you were saying before, when— before I interrupted— the Logies stuff, Tom Gleeson.

Jules: So, well, Logies— see, the, the interesting thing about, um, the Logies, or what the sad reality is, that, um, it had so much power, but then because it's, um it just doesn't hold the crown anymore. And so what happens is when you had the cream of the crop, um, nominated for the Logie, the Gold Logie, it was really competitive and it was really big. Um, it was an amazing honor. Now if you look at the Gold Logie nominees, you know, you don't even re— I did— there was a few I didn't recognize. And you would think that even me, who doesn't watch a lot of TV, you would still know who they are, right? And there were people within there that doesn't. And then You know, and I think Haim was probably, or Carl, but Haim was probably the last one that I thought, you know, and then it's sort of now it's just— and not to say these people don't deserve it.

Josh: Is it because the media is fragmented though?

Jules: Fragmented.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: And it doesn't mean that the Grants and Helen Cullors and Tom Gleasons don't deserve it. It's just that they themselves would agree that what it— what you imagined it to be years ago was this like dominant force on TV and it was enormous amounts of success. But now you just can be a performer that's done some great stuff and that is popular and then you get the gold Logie. And so what his comment was, which everyone sort of feels is it really— and you go into the stations like it's, you know, these— it's, it's a different industry. They're going through their own challenges.

Josh: So you notice that. I mean, because you've got the unique perspective. Seeing it before and after those shifts.

Jules: Yeah.

Josh: What does it actually— what does it, what does it look like? Is it less, less people involved? Are there less people in cubicles?

Jules: Like, well, I mean, the sad reality is just less viewers, right? So, you know, like, um, Haymes' show, the Lego Masters.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: So, you know, like, we, we at getaway days, we were writing, you know, 1.5s, you know, and now if you were to get a 1.5, it's huge. It's just monstrous. So it's just, there's less people watching it because they're, they're, they've got Foxtel and Netflix and Stan and, and it's just the nature of it.

Tommy: And so, which is all on demand mostly.

Jules: Yeah. And what they've got to do is that it becomes bell-ended, right? So you either do lots of cheap, lots of content, you know, it's a reality. Well, it's a mass style, or you go spend really big, um, and you go hard on event television, which is the Ninja Warriors, etc., and The Voice. And so that's been happening, which has become huge.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jules: And that's been happening over the last 5 or 10 years slowly. But the stuff in the middle is the stuff that can struggle a little bit.

Josh: Why? Because everything you describe there is unscripted content. Australia, like, I think that's expensive, but they still do it on Stan.

Jules: They get some big budgets, but, you know, you're not getting the return on— and look, I'm not the expert, to be honest.

Josh: So do you sense it though, like in regards to When was the last time you were at the Logies? Maybe 2013? Or when was the last time you were hosting? Okay.

Jules: Uh, I can't remember when I was. I did 10 years and I think it finished in like— I don't know what the last one I did was.

Josh: Did you sense it though, that, that what Tom Gleeson spoke about the other night, was that something that was in the whispers and talking about it?

Jules: No, everyone's been cynical. No, I, to be honest, I didn't feel it then. And these things, like I said to Sammy, who I was texting, I said, these things move fast. And radio, that's why radio has to be really careful because they see it coming, I reckon, and they're disrupting themselves. And so it takes some real powerful innovators. So things like PodcastOne where they start to have, as you say, on demand. But I think, I think radio has to see it. But when I moved out from TV and radio to do social or tech, It was absurd.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: Now when I watch Tom Gleeson, I go, it's critical for talent to diversify and think about it. Now I think radio is pretty insulated. It seems really good and there's great work in that. You know, when I started and Tommy will attest because Tommy wanted to naturally, you know, like you wanted to be a TV presenter and I was helping you through that. What? Career is there in TV presenting?

Tommy: Yeah, nothing.

Jules: There's nothing. You, you, you did— what did you do, the Fox 8 show?

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: And like, you can't just go, I'm going to be a TV presenter in this country as much. There's just not a lot of—

Tommy: that came through. Amy's mate was producing that show and needed somebody.

Josh: We even think about like, um, but I think you—

Tommy: sorry, just to interrupt, Josh, you saw the writing on the wall for that because your suggestion to me, you're in there, you're making money doing it. You're at the top of that game and you're saying, don't— well, I said the camera, dude. Yeah, pick up the camera. If I didn't pick up the camera, I wouldn't be here.

Josh: It takes so long. Like, think about when that started happening, when the writing was sort of on the wall and that how long— like, it does take a bit. It takes time.

Tommy: Oh, 9 or something.

Jules: But you know, the other thing, so there was not only that, which is I said you can't just be on camera, you've got to be the— what do they call it—

Josh: the predator producer editor. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I took it literally.

Jules: So sorry about that. Anyway, once you got out of jail, yes, um, so, um, that which was diversify your skills because you've got to be sort of everything, right? Because I saw that that was the value in YouTube. These people, right, anyone can present now. Like, that's what it did. As soon as you could talk to a camera and upload it, everyone's a TV presenter. And I won't lie to you, everyone was a better TV presenter because they didn't have all the shit in their way that actual real TV presenter had, which was the nerves and the camera and everyone, um, controlling your voice and what you should say. And these guys were just opening it up and expressing authentically. And I'd watch these guys and just go, you already— that whoever that person— and you, Tommy, you better present a more natural presenter than the, the professionals. So as soon as I saw that, I went, right, you're going to have to— there's no such thing as a presenter. You've got to actually be a content teller, a storyteller. But then the next piece was when you were working in radio, so, you know, and you as well, we were creating content for brands for the network to sell, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: And so you guys became very skilled. And what Tommy kept saying, right, I'm going to go back to this radio station, I'm going to try to, you know, work for that radio station and do branded content. I just said, why do you need the radio network? Go direct to brands. The brands for the first time take you seriously. Just do your content for the brands. Don't leave it up to this awkward traditional thing in the centre and just create what you would do. You don't need all the rest. And, and you started to do that and, and now you guys have done it together.

Josh: Well, I think the interesting thing is understanding how, like, where the money ends up going. That's what I'm curious about is like, so we've seen what's happened with the Logies, we're seeing what public perception is of all that sort of stuff.

Jules: Facebook and Google. Yeah, Facebook and Google.

Tommy: And so it has to go somewhere, right?

Josh: Well, so it goes within those platforms. Where do— where does it sit for the actual content creators, like people like us?

Jules: Well, it's good news for the content creators. It's just bad news, I reckon, for the— at times the publishers. So the publishers, their power was that they had eyeballs. And so the publishers being It could be everyone from the networks, like media companies, so Channel 9 and Channel 10, or The Age, or Media, or New Idea. These are all publishers, even The Pedestrians, right? What they sell is their audience. They collect a community of audience.

Josh: And how do you think that's different to what we do? I think I know the answer, but I'm curious to see your lens on what makes us different to publishers.

Tommy: You had a brain freeze?

Jules: No, I don't have a brain freeze. I'm thinking, um, you're creating branded— like, you're, you're answering briefs for the brands, aren't you? Isn't that a lot of the video content?

Josh: Well, yeah, I mean, that's the thing. So from a, from a client point of view, like, creating content for clients that don't have us in it, that's where it's at right now. And so the transition we're trying to discover is over the next 10 years, how does it translate to— if, if we think about a radio show and how many, how much it costs to run that thing, how much the radio licence costs, how many people are in sales and all that sort of stuff. If we're just a small agile team of 5 of us, surely if we produce awesome content, we'll be able to have enough eyeballs and enough of an audience to do something.

Jules: They, they, they just— 10 years ago you couldn't have got those eyeballs, but I think without a licence that cost you a million dollars, now you can get those eyeballs. And the brands just— that's what influencer marketing is.

Josh: So why wouldn't the brands though go to— why aren't we in the same predicament that the publishers are in, in regards to brands, M&M's, just going to Facebook and targeting out, you know, our audience anyway, not through us, but through—

Jules: because they want engagement, right? And what you guys are perfecting is how to engage audience. So they need engagement. That's the point of influencers because, you know, and, and content creators, the— that's the whole point. It's like you guys talking and offering value is more value than an ad. So that's, that's the point. And so that, that's the point of the influencer thing. If an influencer says how good's Ben Jerry's, it carries a lot more weight than Ben Jerry's saying how good are we.

Josh: But do we lose the, the clout in that? So this, the reason why this is so authentic is because we paid for it and it's not part of a brand integration, which is to your point with the Tribe stuff, the stuff you buy you can talk about. But how do we, how do we do that in a, in an authentic way?

Jules: Okay, well, you, you are human, and so you endorse a thousand brands as consumers. So just generally, you already— so you, you should collaborate with brands you genuinely would be saying anyway.

Josh: And should they be giving us cash? Because I guess where we're at at the moment is we've got some awesome brands like, see, Seagate and QNAP sending us shit, which is amazing, right? They're supporting us at the early stage where there's still like a long way for us to go. They give us stuff and we highlight why their product is great and how we're using it. How do we then get to a point where we can say, hey, actually, this is worth some cash now?

Jules: So when you're offering more value than their products, when do you know that?

Josh: I think it's purely audience number. That's what I'm curious about. Is it—

Jules: are we talking You have to prove that you can move the needle for them worth more than the, the, the product, the cost of their product.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: So where they go, I'm giving them this, but if they take it away, right, I'm willing to pay because that audience, it's just adding value.

Tommy: It's the shift on—

Jules: I'm—

Tommy: for what you do, the ROI is probably very important, but this is the mentality of ROI for brands shifting based on, okay, sure, we can do something with you guys and see a number spike but there's also a bunch of other stuff, them buying into the brand that we're creating and the people we have on the show. Like, I think that's where the value is rising for teams, small teams.

Jules: Half of the battle is you proving your value, you know, and that's what we have to do. I think that, that, like, that is the key, and that's the sad reality of podcasts. Um, not this, but I'm just saying generally in the last few years of podcasts You think of how valuable, like when someone's loving a podcast and listening to that for an hour.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: The problem was no one was knowing if anyone was listening to it. They were just measuring it based on what was downloading, you know, subscription number and which, you know, everyone goes into their Apple Podcasts and there's auto subscribing and auto downloading tonnes you aren't listening to.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: And so there was just that grey area where it just would have it and it's, it's getting better now.

Josh: IAB and all that sort of thing are implementing stuff so that it's And that's cleaner, and that's what we like. Like, there was— it's funny, a lot of the podcast hosts were giving out these inflated numbers on the download, on downloads, and then became IAB compliant. And so many podcasters were pissed because, like, where did all our numbers go? Whereas we were welcoming it because we're like, now we know where we— now we know where we actually stand. Now we actually have strong data that we can say this is how many people are listening.

Jules: And so, so we have the same problem with influencer marketing as podcasting, which is half the battle is proving the ROI. And so technology and those bigger platforms enabling you and, and giving access to all those rich insights can turn on entire categories because as soon as marketers go, there's a value there and I feel comfortable about that, they just triple down. And so we're waiting for that and it's coming with influencer marketing. That's what I was talking about, which is where Instagram is enabling a paid partnerships tag, which is every influencer that posts, say, Ben Jerry's not only do they just write hashtag ad, well, they don't need to anymore. They will actually just tag as a branded collaboration with @BenandJerry's, and then under their profile it will say paid partnership. Now the benefit of that is not only disclosure—

Josh: is this within Instagram or within Instagram?

Jules: But once you tag Ben and Jerry's, now Ben and Jerry's gets all of the rich insights from that post, and so they go into their Facebook Ads Manager And so they'll have 100 posts from, say, Tribe influencers, and now they can say, see which ones are performing, and they can finally, for the first time ever, see who have they reached— males, females, um, what are the impressions, not just the vanity metrics, likes and comments, but then they can benchmark it against their other branded social campaigns. So it's the first time soon you'll be able to— and it might be scary because we might say that influencer marketing doesn't work.

Josh: Well, I think the thing is, it's— I mean, it's where cross-posting, like Facebook cross-posting, where you could do that, it's allowing— giving them access into the insights, which I think is a good thing because it means that we can— you can no longer rely on— so there's, there's people who are, who are buying followers and then using that follower account to do things like to be able to go on expensive trips and shit like that.

Jules: But here's, here's the other the best bit, you can see out of those 100 posts the 10 that performed the best, like the, the piece of content, the pic or the clip. And then what you can do is you can boost that or turn that into an ad. So if you turn that into an ad right now, all of a sudden organic influencer marketing— you couldn't click through, it was like link in bio or swipe ups, but now it says buy now, learn more.

Tommy: This is still living on their page.

Jules: Yeah, install ads. So that's powerful. And then the next bit is they've just released, um, when you tag products, so they let the creator tag a product, which is revolutionary in itself. Like, tag Ben Jerry's, you're holding it right. But then they've got Instagram Checkout, which means that you can press on that and purchase it because you've got your shipping address and your credit card details and even your sizes. You can press in a couple of buttons without leaving Instagram, it's on its way to your house. Now that has got to be the reason why Systeme.io, the founders Kevin and Mike, have left, because this now is not a photo sharing community, which it still is.

Josh: It's an e-commerce.

Jules: It is an e-commerce. There's over a bit—

Tommy: there would be—

Jules: I reckon they're going to say 1.2 billion or 1.3 billion people, daily active users. And they're about to just— this thing is going to turn into the biggest e-com thing you've ever seen. So now you know you're actually getting influencer posts are getting sales within the app. So now value is proven. So podcasting once again is you— that's the challenge within these where we're going to find that.

Josh: I mean, you've done a lot of ambassador deals and things and endorsements and stuff like that over the years. How does this play into that? Because I guess you have this situation where it's, I post a piece of content about a brand and I expect it within my realm, within my community. As you know, contracts are pretty specific. It's like you can have access to digital but you don't get print, you don't get billboard, and all that sort of thing. Are we, are we going to have to reevaluate that whole thing, or will these services actually play in with that so it's an opt-in?

Jules: Yeah, the when you tag a brand, Ben Jerry's, um, you have another toggle that says allow them to boost it.

Josh: Cool.

Jules: Yeah. So you control whether it gets amplified or not. And so if they want you to change that toggle, give you an extra $1,000 for the content rights to turn it into advertising.

Josh: Yeah, that's really interesting.

Tommy: I think if you were to strip it back for people that aren't that don't have an audience yet, right? Because that's the missing piece.

Jules: The point is this is affiliate links. So forever affiliate marketing is literally just a blogger that would get a specific URL. So a web link that was only— so it'd be like old school Ben Jerry's forward slash Tommy Jackett. And then you would post how you should buy Ben Jerry's and you put it on your website or you put it in Twitter. If, if people buy it because of that link, you get a percentage of the profits.

Tommy: So they just do that at scale across thousands.

Jules: And in America, the affiliate marketing category is monstrous. It's not influencer marketing, and it's based not on celebrities and stuff, it's just based on everyday people. It's like Avon lady, it's like Tupperware parties.

Josh: It's— you think that's dangerous? Do you think like the average person completely underestimates what this means? Do you think like people We—

Jules: it is not— there's nothing around. If you take— I don't think it's a question of authenticity. Once again, everyone's going to go the path of least resistance. Like, why are you going to—

Josh: it's commoditized. It's definitely saying like it's playing in a realm where it is going to by default lower the worth of all of these things based on when—

Tommy: the worth for the creator.

Jules: Yeah.

Josh: Well, if you think about it, when, when cameras became affordable.

Jules: But isn't that great? Everything gets cheaper.

Josh: Well, I think it's no, because as creators, how do we— like, I guess there is— that's going to all sort of change in regards to what we're worth.

Tommy: The distinction between people who identify as creators, right?

Jules: I think everyone should be a creator. And when—

Josh: and so based on that, the idea of everyone being a creator, just like if everyone was an artist, artistry or the art form is worth less if everyone—

Jules: but that was what we were talking about, TV presenters, YouTubers and it was at scale. Podcasts, it does, it takes art form. But the good ones, yeah, stay brilliant.

Josh: And so I guess the question is, the other ones, the good ones, main is the differentiating factor that the good ones are mainstream. Is it that like, I guess that's what television was playing into. The good ones are the ones that are seen by the most amount of people.

Jules: I just think the good ones rise to the top. You know, it was like podcasts, you know, like good ones.

Josh: Yeah.

Jules: If you're engaging, it travels. And that's how it always should have been, you know. And that's how I suppose television started and radio started, you know. People had opportunities and, and they, they rise. I like a level playing field for that reason.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Do you think that you would ever have a YouTube channel that you would be updating regularly?

Jules: I wouldn't, but I know that I wouldn't have a hope in hell What about your business insights?

Josh: I would imagine—

Jules: no, but I wouldn't have— if I— I'll give you an example. TV, there was just like— I was able to achieve a job in TV because I worked harder and I made myself marketable, right? But if it was a YouTube— if I was in a YouTube world, unless I hit the right timing early on, I wouldn't have cut through, right? I wouldn't have had success there. Hamish Blake, on the other hand, is the guys that rise to the top. So it didn't matter where he would have gone if he was in YouTube, just that wit, right? That's what I mean.

Tommy: And so it's an interesting thing seeing you come from TV and radio and like, that's where your audiences lived, right? And then you come to these social—

Josh: you chose—

Tommy: no, of course, right? But I'm saying you see the difference because you haven't been someone who's been dedicated to your own personal social media. In terms of—

Jules: no, I hate it—

Tommy: like you did through the radio stations and you dedicated yourself to it. But it's interesting seeing the difference.

Jules: Hard work, you do cut through.

Josh: No, but also the other thing too is this: I don't think you can underestimate the strategic mind that you have. And so that's it, like, Haim, uh, is extremely witty and talented, um, but there's also the other part of it which is the YouTube game is just that again.

Jules: Yeah, you've got to hack and go.

Josh: You need to be able to know what are my titles going to be, and you can't just have—

Tommy: that's where I think you'd probably— yeah, you'd shine in that.

Josh: So do you want to start a YouTube channel?

Jules: Oh yep, I thought we did.

Tommy: Where, where do you think it's, it's going for, for creators that are coming into the scene now? They're fresh, they, they're just picking up the cameras.

Jules: It's so natural, it's so easy to— I still think even though there's volume, it's so easy to Is it easy to be rich and do it, do you think? I think it's so easy to be more creative, out-create other people still. Like, I look at influencer marketing, it's really pretty similar stuff. Like, there's, you know, there's some real superstars that do stop motion. You did some stop motion for Tribe, Tommy. You know, there's some really clever artistry. And I just think there's just a— it's absolute opportunity for someone to make an enormous amount of money with no followers still, because what we're doing is we're opening up those content, like, literally now opening up those content campaigns that anyone, for certain ones, oh, oh, we will vet them, but we will pull together clusters of everyday people that are just great at creating content. And we want to give them opportunities to make short-form video or photography content for brands.

Tommy: And I think, Josh, I think it's like the space we play in is not there.

Jules: Well, yeah, it should be, but I wonder what the marketplace— the kit, every, um, and the kid, we've got— yeah, Billy's fallen asleep. Sorry, Billy, this is—

Tommy: no, but I think so, we're not—

Josh: the experiences work if, if we, uh, what does the marketplace play into our strengths? So for instance, I would be horrendous on Upwork because, you know, like the, the idea.

Tommy: And so I think you look at, if you were to put it in a a famous artist, them doing no-name paintings at scale is not their model. That's not what they're driving for.

Josh: Do you guys have within Tribe— is that what you were talking about? Is there the ability to, if we are a unique creator that has something unique to offer?

Jules: Honestly, if I open up these campaigns, you guys—

Josh: so when are you doing— when— what's— so When you talk about that, that's referring to— so you've got the long tail stuff and then there's more bespoke stuff.

Jules: Yeah. So for instance, um, what's an example? Um, so there's a lot of brands that use— that just do content campaigns with us. The idea is that the influencer creates content but they never publish it, right? It's just for the brand's channels, right? But why— if the influencer isn't publishing, she to their audience? Why do they need an audience? And so my belief is the best people for that are people with no followers that take good photos, right? Because they don't have an option on the influencer marketing side. And so they're appreciative, they're non-divas, and they'll be able to do incredible work. And there's no reason, followers or not, provided that you can prove to us that you've got, you know, some really good skills. Now you can imagine with all your kit you'd be able to do incredible stuff and make a ton.

Josh: Would they consider— because I guess we can do that, but what we're trying to work out is how do we get them to care about the daily talk show? How do we show that there's actual brand equity in there? So rather than just two guys, you know, or a team—

Jules: well, they're just buying— they won't care about that. And when I say it's got to, it's got to fit to their brief. So they're not going to say, hey, we want you celebrating Ben Jerry's on your talk show. It's going to be, can you have a shot of Ben Jerry's and throw it in the air in slow-mo to turn in, or a boomerang with Ben Jerry's that we can use?

Josh: And it's product-first content.

Jules: It's branded content. Yeah, that's the difference of our marketplace, which is—

Tommy: I think it's great because we know what mission we're on.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's more of that, which is just a different business model.

Jules: But it's a completely different business model. But Um, yeah, I say that because you should be trying to do lots of little things.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

Tommy: You would say that.

Josh: Yeah, no, I agree.

Jules: I think I have to pay for this.

Tommy: Yeah, mate, 60 bucks.

Josh: No, Ben Jerry's, it was actually our first—

Jules: it is, it is.

Tommy: You know you're in a good household when there's Ben Jerry's in the fridge.

Jules: And I just say thank you because that's, you know, you've— that's 60 bucks worth of ice cream.

Josh: Yeah, we never thought about that really.

Tommy: No, you can— Billy can have it.

Josh: Uh, Julesy, thanks for coming in.

Jules: No worries. I enjoy it.

Josh: If you've listened this far, please take a screen grab, do even a video or something that you can put on Insta Stories, tag up Jules Lund, tag the Daily Talk Show so we know that you've been watching or listening.

Tommy: I think on Matt D'Avella's video about his channel and how he's monetizing it was amazing yesterday because it's— there is an ask to your audience that is support that's not monetary, right?

Josh: So Matt D'Avella is a mate of ours that directed the film Minimalism. Is all about the—

Jules: Yeah, sorry, you guys, last time you told me to watch, I watched it.

Josh: And so he, um, his channel's blown up.

Tommy: He's got 1.4 million YouTube followers now, like gone from 200,000 last year to that.

Josh: Wow.

Tommy: But he, he was monetizing his channel through Patreon, which was no ads would come up in anything. But it's like, how do you, how do you do that? There's an element of it where we, where it's, um, if, if people are— and I, and I resonated with this because I'm a consumer of lots of people's content and that is supporting someone, right? Consuming reaching out, sending a tweet, just interacting is so powerful. It's like, but then it helps them do what they do.

Josh: What is it?

Jules: What is—

Josh: I guess the thing is, what is that currency? What is that trying to do? And at the end of the day, that engagement, if we actually think about it, is so then we can then show a brand and then we can get some money out. Like, there's got to be a point where that— like, comments don't pay bills, you know, likes don't pay bills, followers don't pay bills. So it's like It's even through that that it all ends up coming through some, you know what.

Jules: So I did, I went to Facebook last week or the week before.

Tommy: As Mark—

Jules: well, no, they're launching Facebook for creators, which is, you know, creators in this country that do a lot of stuff on YouTube and probably do it on Instagram or Facebook. But what they were trying to do is longer form content that they can put on Watch, Facebook Watch.

Josh: Interesting.

Jules: And then they monetize that. And so um, but there's 3 different ways you can do that. One is for these creators to, yeah, create 3-minute-plus long-form content, and then they say put ads in this, and basically you have pre-roll and mid-roll, and you sort of— and, and you get a— I think you get 55% of the, um, the revenue of that advertising. The second one is branded collaborations, which I said to you earlier, which is the paid partnerships tag. So you create some video stuff of Ben Jerry's, you tag them, right? So you can monetize it that way. The third one is fans' donations. Yeah, which I don't think in Australia— I don't think there's anyone in Australia that a fan, um, loves enough that they would pay the money in them for exclusive content to be badged a, you know, a, um, daily talk show, a Gronkh. Yeah, you know, you're a Gronkh and you get a badge on your avatar, so all your comments comments on the Gronkh page go up to the top. And, and I just, I, I feel uncomfortable about— I don't think fans should ever be giving anyone money like that. What are your thoughts? And do you think that has legs?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, yeah, and that's the issue with it.

Josh: I think that we don't—

Jules: yeah, the Patreon thing, and I, the fact that that business model works still surprises me.

Josh: I mean, even for me who— I love the subscription. Yeah, I love a subscription, buy dumb shit all the time. And I've, I've had to do it as a thing of I'm going to try this to support this type of business model. But the actual— it doesn't make a lot of sense. I can't imagine because it's so easy to do the math and say, okay, if we just have 1,000 listeners a day giving us a dollar, you know, we've got—

Tommy: and like you do the math.

Jules: Yeah, I just think it's— I just don't like it.

Josh: So that's— it's very hard. And so that's why I just think in Australia I get it.

Jules: Here you can get like—

Josh: But what about Bitcoin? What about if it was, uh, yeah, sort of like, uh, Calibra? Um, yeah, one of those Facebook's new—

Jules: I, I—

Josh: what am I thinking of? What's the— not, not crypto, what's the thing that's about blockchain, right? Like blockchain should, we would think, enable rather than it being something that's obvious that the consumer's doing. It's happening based on their consumption naturally.

Jules: Yeah. I'm just looking at my poor child over there.

Josh: It's time to go, Billy. We did, we did, uh, we did wrap it up anyway about 5 minutes ago. It's a daily talk show, hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. Please do do the videos, the Instagram stories, all that sort of stuff. Otherwise, have a great weekend. First weekend banter, we go, we've gone to 7 days a week now.

Tommy: So, um, tomorrow, so we'll see you tomorrow. You're coming back, we told you that.

Jules: No wonder I haven't seen you. For the last 12.

Tommy: No, that's because you've been overseas.

Josh: And also cheque out thedailytalkshow.com because over the weekend new stuff's coming. We'll see you on Monday, guys. Oh no, we'll see you tomorrow. That's right.

Tommy: See ya. Bye.

Jules: Thanks, Dave Shelving.