Belinda Wall On Amplifying Your Brand

Belinda: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's a Daily Talk Show episode 383.

Tommy: You were really searching for that number in your head.

Josh: I was, I was.

Tommy: And we have guest number 99 on the show, Belinda Wall.

Belinda: I was going to do a hand action.

Tommy: Just pump it. Yeah, so thanks, Dyl, for delivering that fact about guest 99.

Josh: So Belinda, we first met when Andrea Clarke was in the building, correct? And you are the brand, like you do a bunch of brand stuff. You got Brand Amplified. How did you, um, how do you connect with Andrea?

Belinda: Andrea reached out to me on Instagram, slid in, slid into the DMs, uh, and said, hi, I am looking for someone to help me take the brand and the business to the next level. Yeah, I think she was about, or career CEO would have been, I'm going to say like about 4 years in and had gotten the business to a level where she thought, okay, this is, you know, we've got serious traction here, we've got momentum, but I know that my marketing comms and the way I'm basically positioning myself in the market is really not where it needs to be or it's not up to scratch. So I'd love someone to come in and sort of take that to another level and to sort of take that off my plate, et cetera. Let's catch up. Let's have coffee. And it's funny because Andrea is someone that I, as is the case with a lot of TV or ex-TV news journos, I knew her face straight away.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: From the telly.

Belinda: Where does this, yeah, the telly back in the day. And, but I couldn't quite, I think probably I did a bit of stalking as well. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yep, yep, yep. Carissio. Um, so we caught up for coffee and she told me all about, um, Carissio. So definitely one of my favourite things to do with brands and, um, and new clients and prospective clients is just that initial coffee meeting where, you know, you pretty much have a blank canvas.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: And it's that first opportunity to go, okay, how, how are they going to be able to articulate, or are they going to be able to articulate, like, what, what is it that you do? I was just thinking about your business.

Tommy: It's such a— I, I feel it's such an adult converse like an adult. So I was thinking about how much I love talking about branding and the shit we talk about.

Josh: Just talking.

Tommy: And I was like, that's, it's such an adult thing to be thinking like, yeah, I love branding. I mean, this is what you do for a living. You've really niched into that. We kind of go in between silliness and brand stuff.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I mean, what you're talking about is like, it's essentially a podcast you could record that first interaction with anybody who is wanting to, you know, amplify their brand.

Belinda: Yeah, for sure.

Josh: What are you looking out for?

Belinda: I don't even amplify, just going, what is this thing?

Tommy: Yeah.

Belinda: I've got an idea.

Tommy: So if they haven't even identified, because Josh and I were talking earlier, we were saying whether you like it or not, you have a personal brand.

Belinda: For sure.

Tommy: Now there's just a label for it. I think probably years ago it was just you being a human.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But now we see it as currency, which it is.

Josh: It's like the promises. We talk about the promises on our show.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: And it's all of those things add up to a character, which is then a personal brand. So people know that when something's happening in the show, they can actually choose your own adventure, guess what's going to happen based on the personal brands or characters that we've created.

Tommy: We've done a little thing on this where we go around the room and say what the person we want to be. I want to be the guy that I want to be.

Belinda: So what do you want to be known for?

Tommy: Yeah, it's essentially what do we want to be known for or remembered for, which I know that's, that's one of the questions that you asked.

Belinda: Yeah, for sure. I think it's, um, You know, I guess you sort of getting at things like legacy, like what do you want to leave behind? What do you want to be known for? What or why do people come to you? Or why would you love, like in an ultimate world, in the best case scenario, what would be that phone call? You know, what's that thing that you, you know, when you're spitballing on something that you feel like, oh, I'm in the zone, I'm in my sweet spot here. I love talking about this stuff and I feel like I'm the right person to answer their call. And have that conversation. And so, you know, what am I the authority on? So it is a lot about, you know, what do I want to be known for? And therefore, you know, if I'm not that now, if I'm not that thing now, if I'm not that person now, how am I going to get there? So quite often those first conversations can be— you're right, they can have a fully fledged business up and running, which Andrea certainly did with Career CEO. And it can be about really kind of taking it to the next level or sharpening it up or going, okay, this is, this is the assets we've got and these are our kind of proof points or this is the storey that we've got here. Now let's just amplify it.

Tommy: Yeah. Do you think people are— I've always thought strategic-wise.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: Some people are more naturally strategic, intuitively strategic.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: When it comes to branding, Do you think some people are just more in tune with what it actually means? All these things like what we're talking about, we're really dissecting, you know, thinking about what you want to be known for. It's like, I think some people just strong-headed in that direction as it is. What's your experience dealing with lots of people that are wanting to, you know, identify the brand?

Belinda: A lot of it, there's a few different things. I think, um, some people naturally have, a niche, right? Or, a stronger point of differentiation in the market. So they're just, they're just quite unique individuals or brands or, products. So they just have an, I guess, an innate ability to cut through and people can kind of gravitate towards them more, or people see them more or, identify them more. Whereas for other people, and this is, you know, when we, we come back to authenticity, when we talking about branding is a big thing, is that you can definitely, I guess, curate a brand and curate a storey and kind of reverse engineer a brand around a product in a way.

Tommy: I think it's hindsight's 20/20, right? And so brands that have done it amazingly, you know, where they kind of stumbled into it. Yeah. And then they're like, oh, we're on to something. Let's go hard here.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: But then when you try and then dissect it, You can ruin it.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: If you dissect it and then try and use that approach on a new product or a new brand, it's like, it probably, there's a high chance it won't work.

Belinda: So I think a lot of it does come down to sometimes it's luck, absolutely luck. Like, you know, right product, right time. So I'll give you an example. I suppose in my earlier career, if you did a bit of stalking. 2x you? That's right.

Tommy: 2 times you or 2x you?

Belinda: Here we go.

Josh: This is the big question.

Belinda: What do you think? What do you think, gents?

Tommy: I think it's, 2xu, the x something around the chromosome.

Josh: Well, I tell you, I'm so bad at this.

Tommy: Conspiracy Jimmy was telling me a conspiracy.

Josh: This is why when you have friends like Conspiracy Jimmy, it gets real dark.

Tommy: All I will say is the barista in Shepparton, his uncle owned 2xu. 2 times you? I don't know, but he's got a private jet. And I literally went, it was amazing. I went into this cafe like Shepparton, 2 and a half hours away.

Belinda: I'm interested because I know the 3 fathers.

Tommy: And he said, I was like, what did you do last night? He's like, I was in Adelaide. What do you mean you're in Adelaide? He's like, yeah, I flew over on that jet. We went to a concert and then we came back. Yeah, last night.

Josh: I mean, the Adelaide thing isn't crazy.

Belinda: I'm starting to question the question validity of this barista because I know the three founders.

Tommy: Does one of them have a jet?

Belinda: No, they do not.

Josh: No jets.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: Now I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, mate, you're an asshole. I'm gonna say two times I'm gonna say 2 times you.

Belinda: Okay, and why?

Josh: Well, based on the product helps you elevate yourself to a level of 2 times performance.

Tommy: Oh, Josh, put on the hat.

Belinda: So yeah, 2 times you.

Tommy: One of us has to be wrong.

Belinda: Human performance multiplied. But you know, I cannot tell you the number of, and the Americans say 2 by you.

Tommy: 2 by you.

Josh: 2 by you.

Tommy: How did you get by 2 by X?

Belinda: 2X you, 2 by, yeah. I don't know, maybe do they say by with as in 6 by 3?

Josh: Oh yeah.

Tommy: What do they say? 210U?

Josh: What are they saying in Canada? Would you say 2x, 2 times, 2 by? I would say 2 times U.

Belinda: Have you heard of this brand? No, not until coming here. Canada, always a good market.

Tommy: And sorry, so we digress, but I did stalk and I saw you worked there for 6 years.

Belinda: Yeah, about About 7.5. Your maths. Yeah.

Josh: Do you know 2 times? The real question is what's 2 times 6?

Tommy: Can you just, I just want to be sure here. Can you see it was 6 and something?

Belinda: Oh God, I'm going to be wrong now.

Tommy: Look on her LinkedIn because it does the math for you.

Josh: Oh yeah. That's, that's a great thing about that.

Belinda: Could be 6.5.

Tommy: You gave me too much credit saying I actually would do math.

Josh: What am I?

Belinda: Maybe I've just had my storey all wrong here.

Josh: I mean, how much, how much difference was there between that life versus now?

Tommy: Yeah, right.

Belinda: Um, massive. That's incredible.

Tommy: Less activewear now.

Belinda: Oh my God. So I guess back to the back, you know, back to my day in days in Lycra. There's a lot of Lycra flying around here, a lot of triathletes. It was, it was an unhealthy time.

Josh: A lot of jet planes, Adelaide, a lot of that sort of stuff.

Belinda: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Bullshit Baristas, to be honest.

Belinda: There was 3, 3 trips to the Hawaii Ironman. Which I— that was phenomenal. That was incredible. Brilliant career chapter. But I had numerous emails from friends or friends of friends copying another person saying, Belinda, we've been having this debate at the pub, you know, for the last 6 weeks. And I really need you to tell Jimmy that, you know, what is it, 2 by you or 2x you?

Josh: That's not a conspiracy.

Belinda: It would come up again and again and again. But we actually, you know, was that your job in brand?

Josh: Like, were you responsible?

Belinda: We sat around numerous times and said, do we do a campaign around this? Or, but every time it was flat stick no, you've got to let people have their own conversations and it's a talking point. So if you hear someone talking about your brand in the pub, you two guys having conversation, two chicks, whatever, let them go for it.

Tommy: Oh mate, it's a tick. You're being spoken of.

Belinda: Absolutely.

Josh: And there's also the thing of there's probably more power in allowing people to apply their own storey to it.

Belinda: Yeah, storey or narrative to it.

Tommy: Yeah, for sure.

Josh: That's even stickier. So I guess like a brand, How important is that to have a brand that has one specific storey that's universal?

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: Versus having a brand that plays different storeys to different audiences.

Belinda: That can play.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: Oh, that kind of malleability. I think, I think there's actually, you know, pluses and minuses to both in a way. I mean, there's nothing better than a strong story, of course. Okay. And so that was the idea behind 2xU, is it's supposed to be literal human performance multiplied. So we, we make the gear that makes you be 2 times better than you are now, or it's based on the insight that everyone wants to be better than they are now. Right. So that's why we go to the gym. That's why we just keep going and going and push ourselves or what have you. And, you know, back to your question, which was, you know, whether you should have something. I think that was a strong story, but ultimately people can interpret it in the way that they want to. So I think there's got to be room for creative interpretation with the brand because that's what makes it ultimately aspirational. And you've got to have a critical connection with the audience or the ability to connect with the audience. And I think that's the most important thing. But, you know, also to go back to, I think we were asking Tommy around, you know, right time, right place. And, you know, in terms of launching a brand and what sticks. At that in those formative years of 2xu. And it's interesting because in my new life now I've had a lot of opportunities to start working with another sports brand or another company that wants to launch a line of like or something.

Tommy: Are they saying they want to be as big as—

Belinda: there's always companies, Lululemon, and there's always an aspiration. I think they've seen what a lot of people have done in that space. And done very well. Um, I think the tricky thing for me is that when I look at potential clients or clients that wanting to enter a really aggressive space that has a lot of players, you know, it's a really cluttered space. But you know, when we first, um, launched 2xU or really went hard with 2xU, there was exceptional success. You know, over the years that I was there, um, the growth was over 1,000%. You you know, it was massive. There was probably around a handful of stores in Australia when we started, and we were distributing into over 85 countries around the world by the time I left the business. So, um, huge, huge growth and really successful storey for an Australian brand. So really, really exciting. Um, but to a degree, you know, was it just right place, right time? There was no one doing high-performance lacquer then. Um, yeah, and, and definitely no one that was operating in that pointy end. And Lycra really wasn't cool then, you know. You know, we talk about the yummy mummies, yeah, pushing prams in Lycra that don't necessarily exercise, but yeah, um, so they were really on that wave. Um, so at times you can be lucky and be on a wave. Um, you know, you look at— there's a lot of brands out there now that are riding that that wellness wave and the wave of influencer marketing.

Josh: And are you sceptical based on you seeing you being part of a different wave and seeing how it ends up going?

Belinda: As in new?

Josh: Well, I guess there is the thing with waves is they, I guess they're coming and they're going and it's sort of, it doesn't necessarily because there's a wave now. Yeah, exactly.

Belinda: Yeah, I'm always sceptical of fads. Absolutely. I mean, I'm a cynic at heart anyway.

Tommy: I've seen like some of those, you know, those acai bowl places.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: Like I saw one on Gumtree.

Josh: Acai or acai? We could even—

Tommy: actually, acai places.

Belinda: I think cafe menus are fascinating.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, the acai trend or however you say it.

Belinda: Superfoods.

Tommy: Superfood trend.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: People opened, you know, franchise after franchise. I saw one on Gumtree for $150 grand. Was it Asahi Brothers Brighton?

Josh: A whole cafe, not just the bowl. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: Don't get it confused with how expensive the bowls are to start with.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: But yeah, that is interesting.

Josh: What about burgers, donuts? Like there's all these trends. Like I tried to find a doughnut in Melbourne the other day.

Belinda: That was a genuine doughnut that wasn't vegan.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But not only that, but trying to also just trying to find.

Belinda: Exactly.

Josh: So many had closed down like these doughnut places where it's just like.

Belinda: Saturated.

Josh: Yeah. And how many times, like, I know that Tommy and I will constantly be walking down streets looking for donuts, looking for donuts, but also thinking about like putting the lens of business owners that know how much leases cost, how much shit, and just being like, how the fuck are any of these businesses actually operating?

Tommy: Yeah.

Belinda: Well, I think that does, you know, that flows into in terms of fads or trends. Is Australia's startup culture. Like, we are startup mad. I think startup's an interesting word. I was working with a client recently and we were talking about— and they're a business that are focused on what we call the growth phase of businesses. So they actually mentor and work closely with businesses that have broken through those startup years and they're a legit business. So they're operating in the ilk of of probably 50 mil plus. And really in those bulky growth years and kind of working with them to scale potentially on a pathway to securing equity or investment and so forth. But we were talking about what does startup actually mean? Isn't everyone a startup at the start? Or does a startup just mean, I think everyone likes to launch a business and say, I've got a startup. Yeah, okay, all right. Well, how many startups— I think a lot of, a lot of businesses dangerously like to start their own venture, and there's so many forums and events now to say come along and hear about how to run your own business and put your business on social media and to, um, you know, Instagram your way to success, etc. Um, a lot of people think that, well, okay, I'll just build a website and I'll put myself on Instagram and I've got a product that's okay and everything will kind of just fly from there. They think about maybe I've got money to maybe make the first couple of years succeed, 1 to 2 years. And then once I've got the income revenue coming in, it's going to fly. Well, it's like, it's really expensive. Yeah. Like especially online now, digital marketing to compete because it's so noisy.

Josh: But it's also, I think that it's turned into a status play or a status symbol to, I've got a side hustle. Yeah. I've got a side hustle. I've got a startup or even podcasting has become an accessory, you know, I've got a podcast.

Belinda: And so And that begs the question, I mean, what about— so is this— what would you call these guys? Is this your side hustle?

Tommy: It's a big media company.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. That's what it is. No, I think for us, for us, it's— we definitely see this as a media brand that we're building that's beyond, that's beyond a podcast.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: We've also done some redefining of, of what this means for us. You could easily see it at the start. And I think You know, we've spoken to someone that went to a, you know, they're in the media and they're quite successful. And they went to a course where the course said to them, you know, they were basically saying, working out how to determine whether this is just a hobby or not. Whereas I didn't like that thinking from that teacher and how, you know, how you identify, because it's just a reframing, right? We could think this is a hobby or we could take it seriously and have it as an integral part of our day where we show up and it just becomes. And so if we end up focusing on it each and every day and we work around it, you know, we have other things that we do. So it just becomes a piece of our day.

Belinda: Yep.

Tommy: Which is what it is.

Belinda: It's another lever in your toolkit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Josh: I guess also because we're sceptical with the fact that we, that there are people that are just coming out with podcasts and doing all this sort of stuff. It's like, how do we call bullshit out? Bullshit on ourselves in thinking that this is just an accessory for us. So it's like for us it's about, okay, we're committing to 10 years and we're doing all of these things to make sure that it's like it actually isn't just a fad. Yeah, we're not just trying to ride a wave and then saying, okay, we're going to go on to the next thing.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: Which, and I guess that's a mix of that technology where it's like that minimum viable product. So it's like just get out there and start making. But then also have the, in the back of our mind, how can we start to build things? How can we? So you can look at it today and go, this is in no means minimum viable product.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: But a year and a half ago when we were using two USB microphones, it was. And so it feels like bootstrapped. Yeah.

Belinda: I think as well, if you look at the bigger equation, there's a, there's a lot of sort of thought around things like parallel brands, you know, and if you think there's quite a lot of brands going on here, you know, there's, there's the daily talk show, there's you two, you've got your personal brand and so do you, Josh. And then, you know, upstairs you've got another brand. Yeah. So I think, but they all are working to complement each other and they're all sort of, they're all functioning in parallel. So they all make sense. So they're all serving as proof points for the other brand and they're complementing each other. So it makes sense.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: And they're value adding the other into the other brands as well. So it's not like it's something that's just a side hobby that's not giving greater value to you as a professional and a, I guess, a separate personal brand in itself. And it's not giving, not giving value to the other businesses that are running upstairs.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, how many people have a side hustle and they call it that because it gives them the comfort of not going all in on it, right? So you go, this is a side hustle, it's what I'd love to be doing, but you know, I've got this other thing I do.

Josh: It can be a pat— I guess it can be a pacifier from like the— and I remember I went through, I wrote this, I'm really curious to know about your transition from employee, uh, to running your own business, because I think that for me it's all— there's always been such a massive storey wrapped, wrapped up in it because it's it's a solo pursuit, even if you've got a supportive network around you. You go from having a bunch of colleagues. And so there is that sort of perception around it. What was that like for you, that transition?

Belinda: It was really challenging. And how did it happen? So I suppose in my final, you know, there was, There was maybe a couple of years when I knew that I wanted to get out of the business that I was in at that point in time. And, but I was so, it was such a big role. It was a huge role and it was so fast-paced and I loved it so much that I just immersed myself in the work. And that's kind of part the work and that I was operating in a sweet spot, but also part the way I'm wired.

Josh: Were you also defined by your role? Like I think for those like for big brands that are doing really well.

Belinda: I was living the brand, like I was everything about it.

Tommy: When there's global at the start of your title, yeah, it's pretty big.

Josh: It's pretty big. And that's coming from the owner of a big media company as well. We have global big media company.

Belinda: There was no global jet though. All right, okay.

Josh: So they just parked that in Shepparton. And so, yeah, so what was that reframing for you then?

Belinda: So, um, my point was I didn't even have the headspace to work out what, you know, I'm going to jump over and do that next big thing. I just, I couldn't really. And I think this is true of a lot of people that have a side hustle. Um, so actually I had about 9 weeks annual leave banked in the system, and I think I got to a point where, um, something happened and I was like, actually, that's, you know, that's the nail in the coffin. Yeah, I'm, I'm out. I've resigned. But, you know, I've got 9 weeks annual leave, and my partner was really supportive. He said, just just do it, just get out and take a break. You actually do need a break, you know. I was like, yeah, actually, okay, I do.

Josh: Um, so there have to be a catalyst. Like, the thing that I've always found is whenever exiting a business, and maybe this is my personality, but it's never just this like nice transition of like, ah, I've decided that I'm leaving. It's always like Molotov cocktail in hand. Exactly. There is—

Belinda: yeah, look, let's be honest, some shit went down. Yeah.

Josh: And that's like, I think I think that that is a universal thing that maybe isn't spoken about enough because everyone wants to— it never looks good when you're going from one thing to another thing, uh, to be— it feels like it rubs off on you, right? And so there is a sense of like, okay, I'm going to reframe this, I'm going to ignore these sorts of things. But I guess what we're—

Belinda: everyone has a moment where they're like, done. Yeah, I, I think, you know, there's a turning point where it's a non-negotiable. Yeah, like for you, like Actually, and for me, I think I, I think I cried at work and I was like, I don't cry at work.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: And this isn't going to be a regular habit.

Josh: So it was either stop crying or quit.

Belinda: So yeah, I did. It was it. And I look, I'd had, you know, family members for a while just saying, you know, you should probably finish up. So took that, jumped out and had that time. But I never remember. I was never job hunting. I just, I was so, I think I was absolutely burnt out and I was not in the headspace and just didn't have an interest to jump into a similar role. So it didn't take long, maybe like took a couple of weeks and I thought, actually, you know, I'm just gonna do some consulting for a while. And didn't take long just to spread across my network. And I think one of the most powerful things that I did in terms of working out what I wanted to do and what I wanted to be and how I wanted to position myself position myself in the market was, all right, I should probably get a website up, you know. Um, and that's one of the exercises I often put on people is to say, okay, well, if you needed to develop a website for yourself, if you needed to, whether you're a consultant or, you know, if we're just talking figuratively, um, what would it look like? What would, what would it feel like? What's the colour scheme? You know, what would your tone of language be? You know, what are your products, but then what's, what's your process going to be and what's your secret sauce? You know, you talk about secret sauce in advertising a lot, um, and you know, what's, what's that going to look and feel like? So that really, um, forced me to work out, okay, what are you going to offer, um, and how are you going to position yourself and what kind of brands and clients are you going to be open to, um, but I guess going back to your question, original question, Josh, I think it took me, it was really confronting because it made me realise that 90% of my world was work. So once you get off and literally getting off the treadmill from being in that kind of fast-paced environment is to go—

Tommy: Just to be clear, they actually had people on treadmills while working at two times the speed.

Belinda: No, kid you not. I'd walk out sometimes and in the back there'd be be someone on a, you know, like an exercise bike.

Tommy: Just testing the new Lycra.

Belinda: Just training for Hawaii. Sure. So it was, it was a live and breathe culture.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: Like it was really immersive, which was, you know, what made it brilliant. But it took a while to go, okay, what's going to be my new working rhythm? And no, I don't have to be at my laptop at that particular time every single day. And I don't have to leave the house at 5:30 to go to the gym and then be at work and have my breakfast at work and then, you know, get home late. And, you know, it took, it took months, probably like a year for me to be okay with a new groove of— I mean, you guys know what it's like to live and work for yourself. And I think the biggest learning for me is all around. I mean, I've always been quite disciplined person, but is that self-discipline to a next level, to the point where you have to be totally across your well-being and your workload and what rules you're going to have for yourself.

Tommy: Um, you know, a lot of responsibility, personal responsibility, huge. It's great. Yeah, I think it's empowering.

Belinda: And I think it's not for everyone, definitely. Absolutely. No, I think that comes back to the whole, you know, people that are like, I've got a side hustle. It's like, well, is that— because I heard you guys speak recently on another podcast, you're talking with Jordan, um, uh, Jordan Michaelides. That's it.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: And you were talking about, um, hobbies. People don't really have hobbies anymore.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: And it's so true. So like maybe this whole, my side hustle is kind of my hobby, which is fine, which is great. But I think there's also a pressure that our hobbies have to have a value to them now. And, you know, what are you doing that for? Like, what's that contributing? You know, what's the, what's the greater good of you just tinkering away at something like that?

Tommy: Do we have to call it a side Well, because then it becomes like a status play when we want to make money from the hobby, because then other people are looking over and you're like, look at me, I'm making money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, it's a funny one. But I think, I think the personal brand stuff is personal and there's a great— it's, there's personal development within the brand stuff, like the website. And, you know, if you're not even looking at doing a business out of it, it's like, how, what, what's the substance of you? What do you have to show for you? Like, we're just vessels that if we don't talk, yeah, what's your story? You don't know anything, right? Yeah. So it's like, what's the inner workings of you and how can we see that visually and read it and listen to it? Yeah.

Belinda: And are you going to have music or like, you know, what is it?

Tommy: Yeah. You know, da da da da da.

Belinda: Exactly. Is it going to be totally— Yeah. You're going to have a soundtrack. Yeah. Is it going to be intense? You know, is it going to be, you know, bright and colourful or minimalistic or like hugely visual or just, you know, lots of words or, you know, it can be a really powerful thing. And I think a lot depends if you are visual or verbal person or, you know, that kind of stuff. So maybe, maybe you don't, maybe it's not a website, maybe you're going to have a podcast, or, um, you know, and again, that comes back to who your audience is and what your objectives are.

Josh: Well, they, they all come down to asking questions. Like, I think Tommy and I are constantly sitting in meetings with businesses and we're realising that the video we're making is the catalyst for them to sort their shit out. Oh yeah, much bigger scale. Yeah, it's like, okay, you could be doing, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of revenue, but you may not still know why the fuck you're doing it.

Belinda: Absolutely.

Josh: And so, I mean, that's—

Belinda: and so you're iterating that, you're iterating their brand for them as you are producing something, which is actually really frustrating for you guys. I get that. And I work, I work quite often or closely with a couple of agencies, often PR agencies or creative agencies that have a client on retainer, for example, and they might be a couple of months into a new engagement and going, you know what, we, yes, we've signed the client and, you know, yes, he's got a really healthy retainer, but we're kind of set up for failure here because the client doesn't know who they are. They don't know really who their audience is.

Josh: What success looks like.

Belinda: Exactly, exactly. Or And ultimately the agency will bring ideas to the table and the client will just either be a yes client or just go, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. You know, any news is good news or any placement is good news or is good placement. But then, you know, proverbial shit hits the fan when they get to the end of the 12 months and they go, well, our sales haven't lifted or we've still got this whole product in the warehouse and it just hasn't moved or we've got no engagement around our social media or what's going on. Like, we've just spent all this money. It's like, well, we never sat down and talked about what your brand actually is because you probably haven't spent the time to think about it and therefore who the audience is and therefore what, you know, what platforms should we be getting coverage on or who should we be influencing in order to really shift the needle?

Josh: Do you think it's because it's a— it seems like a luxury for a lot of businesses? So a website, for instance, tangible, video tangible. Spending 2 days in a workshop to work out branding, extremely important, but harder from a tangibility point of view. It's, it's not as external. Do you find that as a—

Belinda: it's not like a, yeah, a physical asset.

Josh: Yeah, it doesn't— you don't have the physical, like they see, like a lot of people will come to us knowing they want a video.

Belinda: Mm.

Josh: Or, and it's probably a similar accessory to that of having a podcast or whatever. It's based on this idea of our competitors are doing it, or LinkedIn is promoting video at the moment, so I need to be doing a video, but doesn't have that sort of substance. Have you got ways of sort of—

Belinda: yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, it's a good one around sort of case studies, for example. So, um, yeah, because people would come to you and say, I'll give me— give me some examples of the videos you've done, right? So how, how do I do that? So there's a few different ways, um, obviously, you know, showcasing the clients that I have worked with, but ultimately it's the testimonials and word of mouth. I think that's where it really comes in. But, um, it is tricky because yes, there are— I'm not going to say every single client has, has taken what the work that I've done and run with it, because to a certain degree you've got to hand that over and you've got to say here's the, here's the brand stuff, but it's only ever going to be as powerful as the way in which you interpret it and then run with it.

Josh: It's like a psychologist or something, right? Like, it can be extremely valuable if you— but it needs the, the person at the other end to be willing to actually—

Belinda: you need the implementers and you need the disciples within your business to start living and breathing it. Um, and it's not just a campaign. Like it's, you know, a brand, a brand campaign is different from, you know, brand marketing is different from product marketing and a campaign is different from a new brand and so forth. So how do I demonstrate that? I think ultimately it is, it's a lot around that, that word of mouth piece. And I never really go back to clients for a testimonial until, say, 6 months or 12 months down the track and say, you know what, and you know the ones to go to because you know, they're just flying and you know that that, that moment in time has been the turning point for them going, you know what, since that time, since we sat down and did that work and we really articulated what we are and who we stand on and what we stand for and who we're chasing down, everything else in the business has become that much more efficient. Our decisions are that much easier. We've narrowed in on who we're chasing, we've sharpened up our product line, etc. It just, it just has made that, that much more difference. So you've always got to be careful about, you know, when is the right time, because it does take time. It's not, you know, it's like old school PR. Your results aren't going to come in instantaneously. It's going to be, you know, at least 6 months to 12 months. So it's definitely not as easy, and it does take that level of trust in the client to say, you've got to own this ultimately, and you've got to take it on. You've got to start to bring everyone on the journey, from your employees right through to your product, you know, your employee culture, but then also product development, and then your marketing, of course, you know, look and feel and aesthetics. But, you know, the truest and strongest brands are the ones that are living and breathing the brand through every single touch point.

Tommy: I mean, it's a tough challenge to come up with a set of values for a business that's already in existence to then get your staff live and breathe these, right? Because the value should actually be there. You know, essentially, like how many businesses have you gone into and you've seen in the toilet? There's like your values. This is our values, our principles.

Belinda: You know, it's like integrity.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. And so they just become words. And so we've worked with a few companies companies that live and breathe. I think Envato, they've got some great values and you can see it and you don't even have to read the board, you just talk to the people. Definitely getting a kickback. No, but I think they're a success storey in Australia.

Josh: I think also it does come down to, say with Envato specifically, it's like—

Tommy: Josh worked there.

Josh: Yes, I worked there. And so there was the founder and they're a client now. There's the founder level as well too, which is like, I think you need to be able to— like, the culture and all that sort of thing needs to be steered. And I noticed that big things can happen, like things can go wrong within businesses, and it's working out how, how are people responding and reacting and all that sort of thing. And I feel like that's how a company like Envato has been able to keep their values, because at every friction point, at every tension that's where you really get to see the values in play as well.

Belinda: You're right. I think the tricky thing is you're right, for businesses that have, that are quite successful but have, have got a great culture and then you're like, oh, hang on, in order to grow, we've got to make sure that we harness that culture and we own that culture and that brand. So how do we actually define it? And there's been a lot— there's some great sort of thought leadership coming out more around how do you harness an existing culture that is a culture and brand, and also how to tie in and manage internal cultures in tandem with brand, because they're very much, very much hand in hand. And that basically internal, internal culture and external brand sort of really should be complementing each other and absolutely relevant and congruent, I suppose.

Tommy: Yeah, I've worked in a business with a pretty toxic culture and it just, it eats it from the inside out, which is what culture is, right? The people.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And what everyone's feeling when they walk into the office. And that same business, I spoke to someone, I was like, oh, from the outside it kind of looked revamped and stuff. I said, oh mate, great new logo. Yeah, great. You know, it's all the changes happening. It's still the same place, which is the culture he's talking about.

Josh: Yeah, that would be a hard, hard task to revamp that within like brand return on investment and the relationship between brand and ROI. It feels like within communications and marketing, brand is one of those few line items that I feel like I've sat in meetings where executives have been okay to have a line item for brand without a specific ROI attached to it. As someone who lives in this space, do you think that there needs to be a bit of, bit of that, or do you think that that's a misconception on brand, that it, it isn't something that you can sort of— that has that clear return on investment?

Belinda: I think if done well, brand should really filter through every division and every department of the business. So therefore it's a really interesting question around— I mean, there are certain brand investments that you'll make that will be 100% brand. Okay, so again, a brand advertising campaign as opposed to a product advertising campaign or a brand brand push, right? So you can go, okay, well that's dollars put in brand bucket. Other things will be, all right, business as usual brand. Like what are we gonna do to make sure that everyone is towing the line in terms of living and breathing the brand in terms of, you know, from again, product development right through to creative and HR and recruitment, et cetera, et cetera. I think there needs to probably be an onus of responsibility shared across almost like every division needs to pick up a bit of that in addition to perhaps brand itself. So I think it probably could, in a best case scenario, really should be spread across the board.

Josh: So how do you then measure, how do you measure something like that, do you think?

Belinda: It's a really good question. I think ultimately It depends on, again, what, what success looks like. So if, say, at the start of your particular year you go, okay, well, our goal for the brand is to really forge into— increase just overall awareness, right? Okay, so you could measure that through any kind of brand awareness or community awareness touch points, or you could look at things like social media followings or you know, followings on our latest brand podcast or what have you. Um, or, you know, you could step back and, and also, you know, go back to, you know, what, what is success? You know, what are we aiming for, for the business? Are we, are we wanting to launch into a particular new product channel or a particular new, you know, market segment in another country? Um, I think you've got to tie it back to what what that particular goal is ultimately.

Josh: So is there a reframing of brand? Is there something— is there a way of describing it? So based on goals, I guess that could be very different, right? So say within a brand, if you were to do a workshop and realise that the employer brand or the perception of the people is a bit toxic or whatever, yeah, then there's a piece on that. The weirdness is that You could say, okay, the tool to fix that is we need to create, uh, employer brand content. So say video content or a website or whatever, a microsite that starts to highlight some of the positive things. But then it's not necessarily actually fixing— it's not fixing the root of the problem, which is that maybe people satisfaction within the business is low. Within that example, would that mean that you'd potentially have to, from a branding exercise, if it's like we want to be, say, a great place to work.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: Is it actually then starting at changing how they work? Like rather than it being any external communication whatsoever, it's actually an internal thing.

Belinda: I think I'm trying to make sure I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly. As in the metric of success there?

Josh: Yeah, well, I guess that, or it's like the tools that we have for brand. So if we have like all these, I think that, I mean, most people would think of like through webs, like you think about a website, we think about doing a podcast, you think about the communication part of the tools to actually do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas it seems weird to think of a brand manager working out like fixing the situation in regards to, uh, toilets or something like that, like an issue that's happening within the business.

Belinda: Yeah, okay. Yep.

Josh: Um, you know, is that like, from a brand, from a workshop point of view, do you ever feel like that's the unsexy bit that ends up resulting in these workshops?

Belinda: I don't. I think it's, um, I think it often would be one touch point in a bigger equation. So it's all about, again, your proof points and working towards that authenticity. So if a brand ultimately wants to position themselves as, um, an equal opportunity employer, um, or wants to even be, you know, social conscious, um, social conscious brand or a brand focused on social impact or what have you, it's, it's not going to be good enough to be seen and seen as doing things out in, you know, remote communities without ultimately living a great culture, having a great culture internally as well. So I think it's what you were saying before around, yes, you can be all shiny on the outside, but if you go in and it's still a shitstorm, then that's just not, not going to fly. And ultimately it's going to unravel at some point. And, you know, whether that— when or when— where it happens, um, it doesn't really make a difference. But I think strong, strong brands get built from the inside, and their employees will be living that brand, and it's got to be true at every touch point. I think it's also understanding that your, your employees are ultimately your brand ambassadors as well, and, and they're also proof points of your brand. So it's no good, you know, obviously inconsistency would be a major issue for the brand, but you've got to also know that all of your employees are ultimately your most powerful ambassadors. They're out there advocating for the brand or not. They're, they've all got their own LinkedIn profiles. They've all got conversations happening at the water cooler, but also at the pub that, you know, with their families. They're either going to wear your product and use your product. They're either going to be proud to say they work for your brand or not. You know, you can't put a muzzle on that kind of stuff.

Tommy: Are you, the companies you're working with, are you seeing them invest in their staff's personal brand? Traditionally CEO and, you know, the CMO, the C-suite.

Belinda: I think that's definitely, it's definitely having a lot more. I think a lot of big businesses are investing in things like LinkedIn strategies, thought leadership strategies, making sure they're training up a cohort of thought leaders or people within their organisations who are capable of supporting their brand strategy around being positioned as Brand X. So it's like, okay, we want to— we need to start producing more content around supporting us as a leader in X. So therefore we need to make sure that our employees are, you know, subject matter experts in these particular areas and able to articulate themselves verbally in keynotes, in industry conventions, etc., etc. So absolutely, that is happening a lot more. And I am, you know, I am going to be actually working with a couple, couple more brands in this new financial year around training up people to be able to articulate, articulate themselves in order to support their businesses' objectives like that. That's an interesting one.

Tommy: Well, you want them to be able to clearly articulate what the business does.

Josh: It's because the business is just made up of people.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so if you don't have the people talking, it's, it's a bit hard.

Belinda: Well, exactly. Yeah, it's, it's a little false.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, I think if you were to sort of, if you're looking for a job, I mean, this is not exclusive to people who are just wanting to do their own thing, but if you're looking for a job and there was two people and one of them had a strong personal brand and the skill set and the other person just had the skill set, it makes sense who you'd end up going with.

Josh: Well, what does a strong personal brand mean?

Tommy: Strong personal brand, whether, whether it is just elements that they are able to articulate of their personality that resonate within the business.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So I think about it and yeah, you're right. You could question that. But if you go, this person seems, you know, friendly, you might be able to search them up and see their past work. They presented well. They've got a website, whether it be just a one page, you know, or something like that, where they've just done a piece of work around, this is who I am. This is what I have to offer. Maybe it doesn't even have to be confident. Maybe those aren't the traits that need to be shown on the day, but there is something outside of just, here's my skill set, I can do the task.

Belinda: I think one of— yeah, absolutely right. I think there's a, one of the most powerful cases in point there is in the old reference check, right? So when you get a CV, someone wants to join your team, someone wants to join your business, you pretty much take all that stuff as a given, right? Everything that's written down on the page. And you can go to people's LinkedIn profiles and have a look at what they've achieved in terms of their capability. And their KPIs and the projects they've worked on, etc. But ultimately what is going to make or break you getting that role is the conversations that are going to be had when the reference cheques are done. And when I do a reference check, so if I'm going to call, call Josh and ask about you, Tommy, don't do that.

Josh: Bad idea.

Belinda: I'm going to say, so, so this guy Tommy, I'm not going to say, all right, well, on his CV it says, you know, he's achieved 50% growth over the last 6 months and he's managed a team of 20. Is that true?

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Belinda: I'm not actually going to say that. But I was about to say—

Tommy: I won the pancake eating competition I won in 2012.

Belinda: Exactly. So I did notice that he was involved in a pancake, you know, eating competition. But can you tell me, is that something that he does often? Like, is he a culture-based guy? Is he always looking out for the team?

Tommy: It's actually a question to you, mate. Please answer it. What do you say?

Josh: I would say, yeah, he did do a pancaking, pancake eating. See, I've fucked it. Pancake eating competition. He's a fun guy. I mean, what's the role? That's what I'd be wanting to know. Where the fuck is he going? Because I've got this business with him. Anyway, there's a lot of other interesting stuff.

Belinda: What's his shtick like? Yeah. Can you tell me about the way in which he goes about his role? And is he a sort of, you know, heads down, bum up, you know, gets shit done. Does he deliver on promise? Does he always go over and above?

Tommy: I need to tell you. So I worked for this gym and this is when I was probably 17. And there was this guy who was the manager there, bit of a slimeball. He was okay. Bit of a bogan. He ended up completely ripping off this gym, taking cash, telling people, go down to the ATM, get some cash out. You know, do a good deal on this membership. Pocketing the cash, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. Worked out that he was the one doing it. Cops were after him. He went for a job and he put the fucking gym as a reference.

Belinda: Oh dear.

Tommy: The gym got a phone call because you got to put somewhere and he's like, oh, they won't call. He must have been thinking that this company, they called. It was like, hey, just wanting to understand about this guy, blah, blah, blah.

Josh: Absolutely not.

Tommy: Absolutely not. We're after him. Where is he? Can we come get him?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I tell you who has done an absolutely shocking job at their personal brand. Mr. 97. Love him to pieces. '97. When he first—

Belinda: Selling himself short.

Tommy: Well, no, I'll give you the— I shouldn't have— Now I've done a presupposition.

Josh: Where did you learn? You say presupposition a lot. Where did that even come from?

Tommy: Yes, but so I've already tainted her mind that he's not a shit person, right?

Josh: Why do you say it?

Tommy: It was when I was doing my coaching course.

Belinda: Let's punch in, guys.

Tommy: Yeah, my coaching course, the coaching institute. When I was 20.

Josh: Did they say that?

Tommy: Presupposition? Well, it's just talking about presupposition. So it could be like a manipulative technique, right? So like I've influenced you to now think that he's got a shit personal brand. Where you could actually do it for the worst, you know, you could encourage or you can. So there's multiple ways of using it.

Belinda: Celebrate it.

Tommy: Yeah. So in the car last night, my wife's listening to an old podcast of ours with Jordan Evans.

Josh: Were you in the car?

Tommy: I just got in and I had to shut it off. She's like, no, I needed to show you this. And it was one of the first episodes where I mentioned Mr. 97. He didn't have the name Mr. 97. I just said this young bloke has reached out to me and the title of the email was, I work for free. And you do some due diligence. The kid has nothing online, didn't even have an Instagram profile. I don't even— did you have a LinkedIn?

Belinda: Tried to stalk him, but I tried to stalk him.

Tommy: Just nothing. He's never had a job before, wouldn't have been able to get a reference.

Belinda: Like, I mean, if that's just like an alien, but maybe that was a conscious decision.

Tommy: He can speak for himself, he does talk. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, um, I found it, I found it hard and sort of weird to develop a personal brand. It just felt weird doing it at that age. I mean, like, I didn't want to intentionally— yeah, well, I didn't want to intentionally like put out stuff. I just felt like coming out of school, it was okay to not have anything there. It was like a good starting point to be able to start building on. And so I think that's fair, but no, I think you luck out though.

Belinda: I think, but for us, so were you inherently sceptical because you couldn't find anything or a little bit?

Tommy: On that thing I said, he could just be a suck of my time. Which some could say he still is. No, no, he's lovely, but he's flourished under our guidance. But no, but I think, yeah, I think you go, well, if, if you, if that is your approach to try and get work, and I think there's probably ways that you could just increase, and it's not, hey, let's just do a resume, here's my resume. Like, I'd be more inclined to hire someone that doesn't send a resume Sends a nice thoughtful email referencing things that we may have done because we're narcissists.

Belinda: Yeah. Done the research.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But also, you know, someone sends a video just doing something that's slightly different.

Belinda: So there's a memorable—

Tommy: it's amazing that he's here.

Josh: I mean, what do you think?

Belinda: What was the hook?

Tommy: Uh, the freebie.

Josh: No, but he got you on there.

Belinda: He knew his audience.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: What I did, what I think I did do that is I gave a human a chance speaking to someone. I had a coffee with him.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: Even though he didn't drink anything because he still never drinks coffee or hot chocolate.

Josh: He has hot chocolate sometimes.

Tommy: We bully him into drinking hot chocolate.

Josh: No, I ask you and you say yes. You like the hot chocolates, don't you?

Tommy: Yeah, occasionally. Yeah.

Josh: He just doesn't want them all the time.

Belinda: So superbly malleable.

Tommy: Yeah. But he, but I met him and I was just like, and then I gave him a, you know, he came in and we did stuff and I just saw the potential in him. But how do you see that? So I think there's a lesson in it for a lot of people coming out of school, that mindset. I'm coming out of school. What have I got to offer? Well, you've got 18 years of life.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: And there has to be something in there. It doesn't have to be job.

Belinda: You don't have to have worked at all this, you know, because it's not actually— you're right. What, what you're saying is it doesn't have to be specific to your capabilities. It can just show your creative process and the way your mind works. So anything that would have celebrated you as an individual and shown that you had taken the consideration.

Tommy: Oh no, sorry, he did say— I've given him no credit here— he did come up with a few ideas for me. Remember that?

Josh: Oh yeah, what were the ideas?

Tommy: They were shit house, but do you remember one of them? Uh, I think, I think I said more content around like, uh, similar stuff to like Rejection Therapy.

Josh: Okay, that sort of stuff.

Tommy: But he did actually put forward a few ideas. We should just make those videos. I've got to I could find those emails.

Josh: Yeah, that'd be good. I mean, what's, what's, uh, yeah, Belinda, what's your thought on younger people who are coming up? They might not even have the traditional job path of being an employee somewhere. I'm curious as to your perspective around meeting with clients, having a coffee with them. What's actually, what is going through your head in those moments? Is it because I know for me I'm constantly, you know, first impression, thinking about that sort of stuff. How much, what, what are you, what boxes are you ticking in your head when you're meeting someone for the first time?

Belinda: I want to know their story. Um, I always want to know the why. Yeah, like what, so firstly, why did you start this thing? Um, you're talking about prospective clients?

Josh: Yeah, well, I mean, what I'm also curious about is there's those questions, but Do you have an internal monologue on yourself and how you're like, because you're a brand person?

Belinda: Of course.

Josh: There's like, I think about like, oh, I guess even thinking about the Seth Godin chat that we had when we were in New York. And I was like, one thing I learned from Tommy is when someone like, like he asked, oh, do you want a tea or a coffee? And I said, oh no. Like my default is always like, no, thank you. And Tommy said yes. And then it was great. Like he had the mug and it was great. And also I think I was like, oh, that was That was one thing where it's like my default was no, but there's something in like, oh, okay, like if I had done that, that could have been a better experience.

Belinda: So I think it's always a balance between, um, and look, I had it this morning, right?

Tommy: Yeah.

Belinda: So I was like, do I put boots on? I don't know. Come on. I mean, the guy's pretty casual.

Josh: Yeah. Are you wearing boots? I don't know what you're—

Belinda: sorry, I went back to sneakers. Um, it's, it's okay. Um, But then part of it was also like, oh, get a bit more energy, put your heels on, it's all right, you know, whatever. But there's questions. Firstly, know your audience always. Okay, so is it a corporate gig? Who is this person I'm meeting with? Are they a CEO? They're like an executive brand client.

Tommy: I mean, it's a given. Say yes to Seth. That's it.

Josh: Just say yes.

Belinda: That's it.

Josh: That's what we're going to do.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: I still, I get what you're saying, but The idea of Seth making me a tea in that moment. I know, but it was a— Yeah, but I, I, I, I, I, I reject it. I regret it.

Belinda: Now he can't say, now he can't say I drank Seth's tea.

Josh: I know, but also the mugs are all quirky and shit too. There was a storey behind the mugs, but, um, yeah, I know I could have taken a mug.

Tommy: It is. I love that thinking though. If you said yes to that, it would have. Yeah, because that's how we ended up talking about the mugs. And so there's Everything. Every—

Josh: There's something we can do to be open to opportunities. Yeah. Where it's like, yeah, like I'm a shocker with it. Like I have built storeys around going up and paying for shit. Like if I'm out to somewhere with Bri, my girlfriend, like she normally— I can't be fucked with dealing, especially if it's a group situation. Yeah, I'm just sort of like, I'm here. I don't like big group situations anyway. So the least you can do is sort out this clusterfuck. Like, okay, my default has always been I'll just pay or I'll overpay, like whatever the thing is. Yeah, but all of those things, like they're running through everyone's minds. And so I guess that's part of it is like we do hear the, you know, what you need to be asking them and all that sort of thing. But how do— maybe not tame, but how do you work with the internal monologue of yourself and your self-image and what you're presenting?

Belinda: So my Yeah, it is absolutely that sweet spot between going, okay, I've got to present in the right way for the audience. Okay. So yes, first impressions matter. So be respectful enough to carry yourself in a way that looks like you've actually dressed like you give a fuck. Yeah.

Josh: I was so close to shaving my neck beard today as well. And I was like, I was literally—

Belinda: I didn't wear my boots.

Josh: We've gone perfect casual here. It's actually worked out well. It's like I said yesterday. To the T. That's the sort of rapport we've come from.

Belinda: I'm mildly offended, but anyway. So yeah, know your audience and your setting, etc. More often than not, when I'm meeting someone for the first time, it is a pretty casual coffee. But I also, I'm always telling myself, you just need to be yourself because if you're not yourself, you're not going to be able to communicate like you usually do. You're not going to be able to be free to actually engage in a proper conversation. But also I go into those meetings thinking, you know what, this isn't about me. Yeah, it's not about me. It's actually about me understanding the client or the potential client and learning about them and the opportunity just to have a really good conversation.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: So I don't— I get excited by those meetings. I don't stress about them at all. I love having those conversations. And ultimately I think it's very much two-way exchange. So if I don't like them, I'm not going to take on the worth. Yeah, yeah. And if I'm not engaged by what they're potentially taking on, or if I'm not really thinking that they've got their shit together, or, you know, so I think it's, it's a two-way exchange. Absolutely. Um, I need to get myself in a spot where I am feeling free to be me in order to open myself up to a proper conversation, but that is Ultimately, my key goal in those first meetings is about building trust, and you can't build trust with someone without having a proper genuine conversation, um, connection, and therefore authentic open conversation. So you don't want to go in with too many objectives, you just want the conversation to roll naturally.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: Um, and to provide them a comfortable forum for sharing their storey because ultimately, you know, they've worked more often than not really hard at whatever it is they're sharing with you, um, and they love talking about it.

Josh: Yeah, well, I mean, I feel like in some ways you're far, you're far along in the journey in regards to like, you've got the luxury of you understand yourself, you understand your self-worth based on you've got experience and a bunch of, uh, stuff on your web, like, yeah, exactly. And so there is a huge I've even noticed having the podcast before having the podcast versus now. Yeah, there's a certain posture that I can go into meetings because it's like I'm not the person who's starting a podcast. Yeah, yeah, we have one and we're doing it. And so there's a huge amount of confidence that actually I don't really think.

Belinda: In fact, we've had 99 guests.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Belinda: Had 99 guests.

Josh: And so that's, that's a massive thing. If you were to, if you were to think about it, from that, you know, starting from scratch. Starting from scratch. What is— what is that, uh, what does that look like? And what was the— some of the monologues in your head at the very beginning when it's like your first client out? Because you've obviously made a bunch of mistakes to get to this refined point. What were you obsessing over at the beginning? What was the—

Belinda: I think maybe, maybe that was part of, um, part of the magic. I think, you know, as I mentioned, when I first started, I really took that pressure off myself to develop a thing. And I said for the first 12 months, just give— because I think maybe in my mind I sort of said it's a bit of a break in a way, a break between the next real job, you know. So the first— and I said, just, just try anything for the first 12 months.

Josh: And that's a reframing or a perspective 100%. Like a self-serving, self-serving one.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: Which not everyone.

Belinda: I didn't put that pressure on myself. I just was like, well, something comes of this. That's great. That said, there were a lot of learnings in the first 12, 12 months, 2 years, 3 years. Well, you know, you still learn, but around how to price yourself, you know, and not cheapen what you're offering and not, you know, deliver too much. Over and above every time. And I'm still learning that. And you just continue to do that, you know, throughout your business. You guys would know that running your own business and working out pricing and what's right and all that kind of stuff. But I think it was because I did take that pressure off myself for the first 12 months. But if there was gonna be some advice, I think it is around, you know, and that rings true to anyone that's thinking about their brand is if again, going back to that original conversation, what do I want to be known for and what do I want people to come to me for? What are my proof points? Like, I can't just go in there and say I'm an expert on X without actually having the proof to back it up. So you need to think about, you know, what is it that— well, what are the reasons that people can trust you and why should they trust you with their story? And what are you going to bring that's different from the other guy that's going to come and have coffee next week? So whether that is, you know, the way you make someone feel or the work that you've done or the way other people talk about you or the way your website just rocks, there's got to be something that is your thing.

Josh: You know, what do you do if the thing that people want to talk about or know, like want to apply to you?

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: Isn't the narrative or the brand that you want. So for instance, say if you were like you know, I had 7.5 years at 2xU.

Belinda: Yeah, right.

Josh: But actually, like, that was not me, or that's different. That actually, that's that bit of the storey I don't want to be my storey anymore. How can we, can we change that? If brand is what, you know, people are saying about us when we're not there, or, you know, the promises we make, whatever it is, how can we, how can we adjust that story?

Belinda: It's interesting because I think Who was the quote? There's a quote around you shouldn't, you should never be the former someone, you know. I really liked that. I think it was, you know, you've got to be careful about holding on to prior narratives or things that you did previously. Like, it's, well, what are you doing now?

Tommy: So that's even with the athletes.

Josh: Well, even we had Craig Bruce on who was one of the highest content people in the country in radio. And that's what I found, which was like, I can see his— where he's going now is really exciting. But also there is that thing of when you have done phenomenal things that might be just in a different field that then has that, like, it's very hard. Yeah.

Tommy: Well, you've done something that worked.

Belinda: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And so you think, yeah, yeah. But then you hold on to that because you think it's going to leverage the next thing.

Josh: But you don't even hold on. I guess the risk is that it's— it can serve you to talk about it. Yeah. So for instance, you could get other Lycra brands for sure based on, hey, I'm that pedigree. Yeah, I'm the 2xU person. And so that can serve.

Tommy: But that's a global person.

Belinda: Yeah, I knew you're going to say that.

Josh: And so that can be— that can serve for sure. But it's also one can also be a pain in the ass when you just want to be doing other, other things.

Belinda: Yeah, I think you've got to, you know, let people talk about it if they want to talk about it and definitely bring, bring some experience to the table where it's relevant. But it does come back to relevance, you know. So if I'm talking with someone that has got a tampon company or a chocolate bar company or who works in B2B, not even B2C, so consulting, for example, You know, what I say about that is, and I do, I work with a lot of different clients, you know, whether they are in retail or FMCG, right through to consulting and B2B, the principles of branding still apply at every point. You know, ultimately it's about working out what makes a brand or an individual unique and different and then understanding how to communicate that to audiences that matter to them. So it's a basic formula. Yeah. And whether you're applying it to a person or a brand, and whether it's a B2C or a B2B, it's still the same, same principle. So quality branding is quality branding. Yeah.

Josh: I mean, it's so hard to do, like, because there's so many touch points as well.

Tommy: Oh yeah. If you think about this, so you've got personal brand or a brand, and you've got Apple, you think Steve Jobs. Virgin, you know, Boost, Janine. Like, so you've got personal brands wrapped up within—

Belinda: yeah, those parallel brands we're talking about.

Tommy: So the parallel brands is— do you need to have a parallel brand to support the main brand? To support the main brand?

Belinda: Like, as in, does every CEO need to be known?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, like Jules Lund, who's on tomorrow's show, he's the founder of Tribe. He's a the face of it, essentially, whether he likes it or not. But then so a lot of the successful brands do have a parallel brand, have a face of it.

Josh: Look at Apple. Look at Apple when it comes to— so brand, from a brand perspective, design and aesthetic is important. Unfortunately for them, that's connected with Jony Ive, who's announced that he's left.

Belinda: See you later.

Josh: And so those type— I guess that's where brands— and we've even heard this from businesses, we're wary of investing in X, Y, and Z people within the business because they've got a 2-year— they're out the door in this, this amount of time, which I think is— I mean, what other options? What other options do you have?

Belinda: Free agents?

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: I think not every CEO needs to be a public brand alongside or a founder, etc. I mean, a lot of brand, brand founders say, look, I don't want to talk about myself. It's actually about the brand and it's about the product, especially at the start. And I don't feel comfortable with pushing their own agenda and etc., etc. I think it only becomes a problem if their brand is significant and public and it's not complementing the main brand. So if it's in conflict with the main brand, that's a real problem and it would obviously not serve to you know, serve, serve the main brand.

Tommy: So I think early days of a brand to even make connection with somebody, you know, people follow people, right? And so it's, it's an easier play to make immediate connection. You could say just based on saying, hi, I'm a human versus, hey, I'm a cup company.

Josh: Well, if it's about creating a feeling. Yeah, it seems to be easier making it.

Belinda: I think it's happening more and more. Yeah. And I think it is also around this startup thing. So everyone likes to have a startup story.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: So why did you do this? And quite often there's a career pivot storey in there. So there's a narrative and there's, you know, this is what I learned from my previous role and this is what I bring to, you know, to this new venture that I'm doing.

Tommy: And it's a way to articulate. So if a business is humanising a problem solver, you know, so I look at Jules, he's a great example.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: Tribe was born out of a thing that he saw, a problem that he saw and he wanted to solve. And so it's a great way to articulate and make connection.

Josh: And I guess here's a great example of someone who was talking to us about being in meetings with VCs, and it's— he's not getting the respect because the person— his personal brand doesn't actually connect with those people. So the guy who was on TV might be really exciting for some people, other people see it as a liability.

Belinda: Yes.

Josh: Um, which I think is very interesting.

Belinda: Exactly. And there is risk Absolutely risks. And I think a lot of people, you do need to be careful because it does turn— there's been several examples of when it comes to selling, for example.

Tommy: So people don't like people as well.

Belinda: So yeah, yeah, I'm not going to buy the product. Exactly. You know, it's not for me. I don't like the way they do that. One of— I'm a big girl fan of Zoe Foster Blake and what she's done. Firstly, I think Go-To Skincare is phenomenal success story. Again, it's built on brand, you know, 100% built on brand, incredibly competitive category cosmetics. And to, to be that successful with 100% online play in, in a market like that. But obviously noting that she's got so much else going on, you know, she's, she's not just the wife of and she never was. Absolutely. She's an incredible writer, author, you know, founder of Go-To Skincare. She's got a lot of different pillars to her brand and a lot of different touchpoints. But that's such a powerful example of someone that is incredibly well-managed, but also not in a way that it comes across as managed, you know, hugely authentic, incredibly witty, funny, smart. And that's what people connect with is someone that just feels like they're just doing it. You know, there's no kind of marketing machine behind it. There's no thought or there's no strategy. Yeah, just flowing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Well, I mean, Zoe's great because she's, she's a great tastemaker who is really good at recommendations as well. And so it's like if you've got a brand, you can't, you can't just be pushing your brand. And so I guess that is the beauty of what she's doing as well is giving back, curating. She's finding this, but like, she's spoken about Hey Tiger, where Bri works a bunch of times where it's not paid. It's literally like, I love this product.

Belinda: Yes.

Josh: And there's a huge amount of another brand on my list for sure. And that's, I guess that's like a huge thing, which is like when you can, you know, you are being a curator and building a community that's beyond just the thing that you're trying to sell as well.

Belinda: But, and your community is an absolutely like, that's part of your proof point, you know, who you're going to surround yourself with.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: And again, whether that's an individual or a brand, it's like, who's going to be your brand allies? You know, in a similar way to, you know, you say to, say to a brand, okay, well, who would you do a cross-promotion with? Who's going to be in your lineup of other appropriate brands that are in your brand family that would make sense to your community or your audience or your customer to go, oh, that does make Makes sense. Yeah.

Tommy: You know, I, it's still something I'm working out, but brand, you need audience. Well, there's, I mean, you can have a brand with no audience, but it doesn't really, it doesn't really do much. It's not going to sell anything. You can theorise and strategize an audience.

Belinda: Yes.

Tommy: For who you are and what you do and what you offer. But from this podcast, starting to see an audience, you don't truly understand until it's there. And I think that's where it's like you can intuitively get to a certain point, but then it's just this— once you've got that feedback system, it's like constantly just going, what, how, why, what are they, who are they, what is it?

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: And so the amount of conversations—

Belinda: who are the gronks?

Tommy: Oh mate, you're one.

Josh: Yeah, well, I think it's a great question. It's something that the beauty of being a daily podcast is that we can sort of move the levers around and see who's responding and who's reacting.

Tommy: Well, the word Gronkh, why, why have we even, why do we even get there? Yeah, because I love the word. And then for some reason, I think it, people sort of, it just sort of, yeah.

Josh: Well, I think if you were to, if you were to deconstruct it, I think it's really helpful for you guys though, because it's kind of a persona.

Belinda: Yeah, it's sort of, well, it's something, it's good for banter, let's be honest. Yeah. But it's something that helps you justify that it's real, right? You know, so there's— yeah, there is a Gronkh squad.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: If you like. Not a tribe.

Josh: Yeah. Well, we even thought like initially the funny thing is we talked about like, and we mentioned it on the show, which is part of our— if you were to think of our brand filters, it's like we talk about like we're very meta. For the fact that we're even talking about this as a thing. But it was like, are we Team Gronkh or Gronkh Squad? And then we landed on Gronkh Squad. But the thing was that it's, I think part of it is the beauty of the word Gronkh, if we can have that for a moment, is that I think everyone has things about themselves that is universally not that—

Belinda: Bit gronky.

Josh: Yeah, bit gronky. Exactly. So we all have it.

Tommy: It's the only word to describe that, right? We all have it.

Josh: And so the thing is that It's like we know that we have these gronky personalities and traits. And so I guess what does that bring in? That brings in people who don't have that.

Belinda: Can we tease that out a bit?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Belinda: So tell me about the gronk traits.

Tommy: Well, there could be relatability. We all make decisions that affect others and we do it for personal reasons. Like for instance, if I don't decide to wash this cup, just leave it there and I just, it's not my problem.

Josh: Just let shit float. It's a gronk move. But the thing is that a gronk move on its own Is that you not shaving? Yeah, exactly. That's a gronk move. But there's heaps of things where it's like—

Belinda: And you know what? The job application.

Tommy: Look, I will just point out one of the biggest gronk moves here.

Josh: Have I misspelt something? What have I done? Belina. How long have you been holding on to that?

Belinda: I'm going to take that with me and I'm going to put it at my desk at home.

Josh: And you know the funny thing is—

Belinda: I'm gonna go number 99.

Josh: The thing is that I never write notes and you rattle me because the thing is, talk about Gronkh moves.

Belinda: He's so offended.

Tommy: He hasn't shut up.

Belinda: I've got balina.

Tommy: This is called the Gronkh backpedal.

Belinda: Great.

Josh: No, but I think that part of the negative, I think that within the Gronkh stuff, it's like we all have a little bit of negative self-talk or we all know A little.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: We all have shit that isn't right. And so by having a way—

Belinda: We're all a bit gronked up.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And we have a way of talking about it now. And it's actually like—

Belinda: Yeah, you've got a vernacular.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You get us with our flaws and everything. I think that's why we talk about these gronk things that we do.

Belinda: Yeah.

Tommy: Oh, yeah.

Josh: Gronk's normal. No, seriously. And so, yeah, I think that definitely plays into it because you could go, oh, you're an idiot for doing that.

Tommy: But it's like, oh, whatever. It's gronk. The funny thing is everyone does that.

Josh: I guess. Part of it too is most people do, most Gronkh moves happen when no one's watching.

Belinda: And so like our bill, and so you guys right here, right now, like this is a conversation around distilling what your special sauce is. Like, you know, this is the stuff that you try in a workshop to get people to articulate. And you know that as soon as you drop that little nugget and you're like, oh, there they go, they've gone crazy.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: Like there's, there's the brand.

Josh: Because we've had so many ideas, like we've thrown out so much, so many different words and stuff that just doesn't stick. Yeah. And I guess it's— you talk a lot about consistency and I guess that's part of it, which is like we're consistently growing. Yeah, exactly. But there is a concept when it's consistently coming up, that's what the brand starts— that stuff starts to become. Yeah. And then so I'm pretty sure that like the someone called like an audience member probably called themselves a Gronkh in an email. Yeah. Which then triggered us to be like, oh well, you're a gronk and you're like, it started being like, you know, so I think it's, it's definitely interesting. But the funny, the funny thing on branding, which I think that Tommy and I are always talking about even as a team, is it's like you can't have it. There is a stage where you aren't like, you know where you want to be, but you're not there yet. And, and I think that for Hawaii, yeah, the Ironman or whatever, the, on the 2 times you jet. It's no jet. Can we get that as a snippet of you talking about the jet? The— but I think that there is—

Belinda: I brought that into my narrative.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Just private jets and two times you. No, I think there is a— what the fuck was I talking about? I was—

Tommy: I was—

Belinda: you want to be something.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: Yeah. And so I think that part of it is for us, we've got certain things dialled in.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: But we've got other things that we're still working on. So for instance, the The reason that we haven't had heaps of guests is because—

Tommy: I mean, 99 is a fair few.

Josh: It is a few guests.

Tommy: In our new space.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: Can we say, I mean, 99 is a bit special.

Tommy: Well, we are. I reckon we could have had triple the amount if we could have two times this.

Josh: Yeah. Well, I guess part of it is that we—

Belinda: Yeah, selective. I like that.

Josh: I think part of it too is it's like we, when we don't, like you've gotten to see us in the growth zone. Yeah. Where we're not where we want to be in regards to how we interact with guests. We want to be having it set up so that it's like there's, like, we haven't got fucking release, we need release forms at some point. We need to be thinking about all these different touch points where it's like, it's unsexy, but it's like, we're still working it out.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Having a map, being like, hey, this is where you're going, do all that sort of thing. It's all. And so there is a, I envision a video of Mr.

Tommy: 97 presenting, hey, this is the car park. You just call us. You will come in here. Come up. Yeah, and we run him up the stairs and here's our studio.

Josh: We want to see that coffee, toilet, everything.

Belinda: He's kind of producing like a boss.

Josh: Yeah. And so there is, and there is that.

Belinda: So I guess it's interesting with the brand stuff because how do you package that all up?

Josh: Yeah. And I think we all know internally what we need to do, but it's overwhelming to try and do everything at one time.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so part of it is just ticking off little bits, you know, and making that work.

Belinda: Yeah. And letting that journey play out.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: Yeah.

Belinda: It's working out what stuff you're going to harness and go, we don't want to lose that and we want to dial it up and let's package it up and let's make that, let's formalise it and make sure it goes nowhere versus let's just crack on and kind of just keep it going and flowing and finding our feet and, you know, all that sort of stuff.

Josh: Yeah. And I guess, yes, what's, what's optional at the beginning and what do we need to like, what is that non-negotiable? You are one of the ambassadors for Future Women. What is it? What's it about?

Belinda: So Future Women is a really powerful community of, you know, set up essentially by an incredible woman called Helena Cabe. So she's former— we didn't talk about former— executive editor of Australian Women's Weekly. But the platform was set up to help women connect, learn, and lead. And essentially it's, it's a national platform and it's got a whole lot of content events set up to help keep women come together to share storeys and to really share expertise and to help upskill each other and to provide a space where, you know, they are safe and empowered. And not just, just as women, men can come along to these events. But to really start to close that gap around, you know, opportunities for women, creating opportunities for women to be more confident and freer and freed up to, to really start to step into their capability. And there, you know, we talk about capability and confidence, you know, in order to succeed, which is very similar proposition to Career CEO. The reason why Andrew and I have started to work with them is that Carisio has been appointed an executive education partner of Future Women, which is really, really exciting. And as part of that, we'll be working with Future Women on, you know, a robust programme which is all about building reputation capital and learning how to communicate with confidence and authenticity. And that really steps right into what we've been talking around, you know, it's not just good enough to be highly capable at your role. That's only going to get you so far in terms of your technical expertise. But what's really going to kick you over the line or really going to make sure that you fly into that next, that next kind of chapter and level is going to be your ability to articulate the work or to, to really shine light on the great work that you're doing and the great individual that you are and the great expert that you are is, is going to be able to articulate and advocate for yourself and to stand up in front of a room and to be able to hold a room. You know, we've all been in those rooms, you know, that you have a speaker there and they just— they're magic, you know, they captivate a room and they have that, you know, special, special charisma, I suppose, or a shtick where you're like, oh, wow, I can't— I probably can't even tell you exactly what they said, but they just held me. Like, I could tell they were living and breathing what they were talking about. And it's all about saying, okay, we want more, we want more women at the top to be able to lead and inspire and engage audiences and to influence and to lead that next generation. We know capability is not the issue here. It's actually about supporting more women or equipping more women to be able to level up through stepping into their capability.

Josh: Is it, is it a different toolkit than if you were a dude trying to do the same thing, do you think?

Belinda: Um, not necessarily. I just think, um, well, not I just think, but the science, um, has, has done the work around, um, women. You know, there's a few different reasons, but genetically, um, we don't have the genetic makeup that men do in terms of the confidence. So we have less testosterone. We, we generally will, will not bring our voice to the table as much as men. If they're, you know, sort of 60% sure they can get something done, they'll probably just say, oh yeah, I'll give it a go. Whereas women have to generally be 90 to 95% sure of themselves that they're going to get it done. Done well before they'll actually say, I'll do it.

Tommy: There's a lot of that 60% happening in the office. And I can tell you, we get a lot of shit wrong.

Belinda: Yeah, but it's that difference between going, actually, yeah, I'm just going to crack on and get it done or give it a shot. Or Brené Brown has a fantastic term, which is all about embracing a shitty first draft. And it's about being, being open to be vulnerable and getting it wrong and not, not trying to feel like you have to be perfect at every opportunity or that things have to be finished or that you're 100% right for that next role or that you're 100% right to take on that particular task or that project is just, just to, just to push yourself forward a little bit more and to get yourself into situations that might be a little bit uncomfortable, but know that you are just as ready as the person or maybe the guy or maybe the girl next to you that's just putting their hand forward.

Josh: So it's a confidence thing. It's trying to—

Belinda: A lot of it is.

Tommy: Yeah.

Belinda: Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: Yeah, it's— I think it's really— I think it's interesting because it's definitely— even if you look at how many guests we've had on our show and how many have been women, it's like, it's— I find that at the moment they're like, we're doing a bunch of work to try and, you know, seek out— shift it out, but in an authentic, in an authentic way that doesn't feel I guess the concern. Tokenistic. Yeah. And so that's part of it too, which is like, we don't necessarily talk about it because we don't want it to feel like that is contrived or that it's even driving the motivation.

Tommy: I think like naturally I'm having more conversations with blokes, like I'm having like with my friends. And I think it's like married to a woman and there are things within relationships. I think it's just, you know, men and women, you know, if you're hanging out with a heap of chicks and you've got a girlfriend, there's a chance you'll be like going, what's going on there? Not saying anything's happening, but I think it's probably— that's a thing in itself growing up where you gravitate towards the same sex.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I have done that. And that's where we see with this show, it's like most of the people we have on are probably in conversation with them anyway or something. And then you, you're through, you know, uh, through Andrea, who was someone that we were in contact with.

Josh: And then it's like, it's a confidence thing, but I think it's a confidence thing as well. So the confidence thing leads to they don't go on to as many podcasts. And so then when we're seeking out people and we're like, have they been on a podcast before? Like all of those metrics, they don't end up playing into it. And so then it's like, that's, I think if we were to look at the numbers, the women that we've had on the show.

Belinda: Or the narrative that's gone before is not going to be a good. Yeah.

Josh: And so I guess part of it is like the amount of women we've had on the show that it's their first time ever being on a podcast is really high. And so I guess part of it is we've realised that.

Tommy: Is this your first time? That's it.

Josh: Congratulations.

Belinda: Thank you. Thanks, guys.

Josh: I mean, I think that that's part of it too, right? Which is like, we can't use that as the— if we use that as a metric, yeah, we're unconsciously going to be cancelling out a heap of awesome—

Belinda: the barrier to entry.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Belinda: I think you're right. And, you know, one of the biggest insights that we always share with, um, you know, a lot of the work that we do around Career CEO facilitation is that con— confidence is absolutely context-specific. So it's not to say some people are confident, and they're the confident people, and we put them in the corner.

Tommy: Yeah.

Belinda: Um, and it is the fact that, you know, we all have times where, you know, we always ask people around the room in workshops and so forth, like, when do you feel most confident?

Tommy: Let's do it, Mr. Nice.

Belinda: When do you feel most confident?

Josh: When do you feel most confident, Mr. 97?

Tommy: Uh, yeah, probably just when I'm with my best mates.

Josh: Yeah. What about you, 3D Dyl? When I know that I can control the outcome of a situation. Yeah.

Belinda: So you've got all the information. You feel like completely well briefed in. You feel comfortable. Yeah. Ready to handle situations. I think so. We've all got that within us, right? You know, the capability to feel confident. It's about, okay, well, how do we harness the conditions for being able to bring that to life more often? And how do we kind of practise that more?

Josh: So where are women more confident? Like, could they reference another part of their life and say, Hey, when you're in this scenario, try and bring that to—

Belinda: So a lot of them say, and again, it's not just women, like men obviously have confidence challenges as well. And not all men are confident, but more often than not, people say, okay, well, I feel great when I walk in through the door, when I get home, you know, put my Ugg boots on and, you know, I'm cooking dinner with my family. But it's a space where they feel safe and that they feel like they can just be themselves. It's like, well, imagine if we can feel that free every time when we go to work, you know, and it's, and it's quite, quite awful to think so many people go to work each day feeling like they have to be something that they're not or feeling incredibly crippled by, you know, norms or conventions or protocols or dress codes or gender types or roles or, you know, what they think is expected of them. If they can move past that and understand that even the guy holding a room or doing that keynote or that woman doing the keynote who is able to hold the room and looks like, you know, is so incredibly eloquent, she's probably also shit her pants before she's coming on stage. Like, we all get that. It's about going, okay, what's going to be my pre-performance ritual? How do I get this under control? How do I do my breathing? How do I, you know, do the power pose? You know, what, what do I need to control the night before, the week before, what have you? You know, even well-seasoned newsreaders, Jen Adams, who I work with a lot, she was 10 years at Channel 7. She, she does keynotes, Andrea herself, etc. Everyone still gets nervous. You know, that doesn't go away.

Tommy: Yeah, it's like you can live with confidence, right? You can be confident and have nerves.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: But it's about, you know, we all get butterflies about how to actually, you know, harness those butterflies to form informed formation.

Josh: Well, that's fine.

Belinda: Formation.

Josh: It's not the signal to not do it. I guess that's part of it too, which is like, can easily say that the anxieties we have are the, uh, the voices to say, no, this is not right. This is like to stop doing it.

Belinda: That's it.

Josh: Uh, I guess Seth Godin talks about the dip and all that sort of thing. I think all like all of this comes down to reframing, right? And so I guess that's part of—

Belinda: and retraining. Yeah, like unlearning You know, and shaking like bullshit narratives as well. It's like, well, someone gave me this feedback 3 years ago and said that, you know, I was X, you know, we get that a lot with the training that we're doing. It's like, well, I had this, yeah, I had, you know, a manager tell me 3 years ago that I, you know, was really bad at this or that I had a tendency to do this. And quite often they hold on to that forever and that becomes their narrative. And it's like, well, okay, we'll change that.

Josh: Yeah, I think there's—

Belinda: let it go.

Josh: There's something in too around as a community or people doing stuff like being supportive of people having a crack as well. And like, I think a lot of people, like, um, the reason we do it more is because we think we're good at it, and that comes from that confidence thing. And so I think what I've tried to do is point out, you're really good at that. Yeah, you know, like, especially It's always 1%. Yeah. Because the thing is, it's like, I don't ride a bike that much. I don't like— I'm not inclined to climb on the roof. Tommy is.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: And part of it is because I don't do that. Like, that's not— that's not— I'm not— that's not something I would do.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: And so I guess that's interesting is it's like reframing those sorts of things where it's like half of what Tommy can do is based around his perception of his ability to like being able to light a fire.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: You can just fucking do it. Like, I can— this is something I can do. Yeah. And I know that, TJ, you'd mentioned a lot where it's like, I've been— I'm wired, like, I'm wired to be able to do this or that. And I think that that is such a power— like, there is a powerful thing in that, in a mindset where it's like, yeah, I can do this. Yeah. I'm like, I'm skilled at that. I'm good at math. And all of a sudden you start to do the things that you need to do.

Belinda: Yes.

Josh: To do it.

Belinda: Yeah.

Josh: What are you good at, do you think?

Belinda: What am I good at? I think I'm an action-based person. So when I say action, not like, you know, driving fast cars or anything. I get a lot of shit done.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: Like I'm a finisher. I'm very much just a deliverer. So you can help me with the Seth Godin book.

Josh: I've got one.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: Which can serve me, but I can also not. Serving sometimes because I feel like I'm not adding value or I feel very lost when I'm not doing a lot of stuff. What am I good at? I'm good at— I think I'm generally good at building trust with people, which is good given the line of work that I'm in. And I think that that's why this next chapter of my career has come reasonably smoothly. Because I love a good conversation and I love, I love listening to storeys and I'm inherently curious about other people.

Josh: You're a gronk. That's how you've described a gronk there.

Tommy: Belinda Wall, thanks for coming in.

Josh: We'll have to get you on for the second nap and we'll, we'll make the whole— when you come, there will be— we'll have Mr. 97 dressed up as a butler. He'll be dressed up as a butler.

Belinda: It's going to be so cool.

Josh: Gronked.

Belinda: That back wall is going to have like a gronk, you know, graffiti.

Josh: Yeah.

Belinda: Garage door.

Josh: Thanks so much. If people just search Brand Amplified, they'll be able to find you. It's a daily talk show. hypethedailytalkshow.com is the email address. If you have listened and watched, we do appreciate a screen grab. Put it up on Instagram storeys to tag you as well. What is Brand Amplified, the best Instagram account to tag?

Belinda: It is.

Josh: Okay, we'll do that. Daily Talk Show. Have it going, guys.

Belinda: Thanks, guys.