#383 – Belinda Wall On Amplifying Your Brand/
- July 4, 2019
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we discuss:
– Intuitive branding
– Fads and trends in Australian startup culture
– Being defined by your role in an organisation
– Branding and measuring its ROI
– First impressions and self image
– Changing your story
– The beauty of the word Gronk
– Being a Future Women ambassador
Belinda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/belindawall/
Belinda’s business, Brand Amplified: http://www.brandamplified.com.au/
Brand Amplified on Instagram: https://instagram.com/_brandamplified_
Future Women: https://futurewomen.com/
Watch today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwseJClS0r4
Subscribe and listen to The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://bigmediacompany.com.au/thedailytalkshow/
Email us: email@example.com
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/ #TheDailyTalkShow #Podcast
It's a daily Talk Show Episode 383 you're really searching for that number. I was
and we have guests number 99 on the show Yes, I'm thanks deal for delivering that fact about guess 99.
So, Belinda, we first met when Andrea clock was in the building, right? And you are the brand like you do a bunch of brand stuff. You got brand damn amplified. How did you? How'd you connect with Andrea?
Andrea reached out to me on Instagram, slid into the dams.
And said, I, I'm looking for someone to help me take the brand and the business to the next level. Yeah, I think she was batch. Oh, crazy. I would have been gonna say about 40 for using and had gotten gotten the business to a level where she thought okay, this is you know, we've got we've got serious traction here we've got momentum. But I know that my marketing columns and the way I'm basically positioning myself in the market is really not where it needs to be or it's not up to scratch. So I'd love someone to come in and so take that to another level and to sort of take that off my cheeks that true. Let's Let's catch up. Let's have coffee. And it's funny because Andrea is someone that I as is the case with a lot of TV or ex TV news. Joe knows. I knew her face straightaway. Yeah, for the telly.
Telly back in the day.
And I couldn't quite I think probably I did a bit of stalking as well. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Yep. Corey Co. So we caught up for coffee. And she told me all about career care. So definitely one of my favourite things to do with brands. Yeah. And any clients and prospective clients is just that initial coffee meeting where, you know, you pretty much have a blank canvas.
Yeah. And it's that first opportunity to go okay, how, how are they going to be at articulate? Are they going to be out? Yeah, like, what what is it that you do? I was just thinking about your business. It's such a I feel it's such an adult commerce like an adult. So thinking about how much I love talking about branding and the shit we talk, just talk. And honestly, that's, it's such an adult thing to be thinking like, Yeah, I love branding. I mean, this is what you do for a living. Yeah. You've really niched into that. We kind of go in between silliness and brand stuff. Yeah. But I mean, what you're talking about is like, it's essentially a podcast, you could record that first interaction. Yeah. Anybody who is wanting to in you know, yeah, amplify their brand. The official, what are you?
What are you looking out for even amplified
is going, What is this thing? Yeah, naughty
stuff. I haven't even identified. Because Josh and I were talking earlier was saying, whether you like it or not, you have a personal brand. The show now there's just a label for it. I think, you know, it's just you being a human. But now we see it as currency, which it is,
it's like the promises, we talk about the promises on our show. Yeah. And it's, all of those things add up to a character, which is that a personal brand, so people know that when something's happening in the show, they can actually choose your own adventure, guess what's going to happen based on the personal brands or characters that I've created.
We've done a little thing on this, where we go around the room and say, what the person we want to be, I want to be the guy that I want to be. So what what do
you want to be known for?
Yeah, it's essentially what do we want to be remembered? For? Which I know that's, that's one of the questions that you asked.
Yeah, for sure. I think it's, um, you know, that I guess, you sort of getting at things like legacy like, what what do you want to leave behind? What do you want to be known for what? or Why do people come to you? Or why would you love? Like, in an ultimate world in the in the best case scenario? What would be that person? Cool? Yeah. What? What's that thing that you, you know, when you spit balling on something that you feel like I'm in the zone, I mean, my sweet spot here, I love talking about these stuff. And I feel like I'm the right person to answer that call. And have that conversation. And so, you know, what am I the authority on? So it is a lot about, you know, what do I want to be known for? And therefore, you know, if I'm not that now, I'm not that thing. Now, I'm not that person. Now. How am I going to get there? So quite often, those are first conversations can be Iraq, they can have a, you know, fully fledged business up and running, which Andres certainly do with crazier. And it can be about really kind of taking it to the next level or sharpening it up. Whoa, going, Okay, this is this is the assets we've got. And these are our kind of proof points, or this is the storey that we've got here. Now, let's just amplify it.
Yeah. Do you think people are? I've always thought, strategic wise. Yeah. Some people more naturally strategic. Intuitively strategic. Yeah. When it comes to branding. Do you think some people are just more in tune with what it actually means? All these things? Like what we're talking about? We're really dissecting? Yeah, thinking about what you want to be known for it? So yeah, I think some people just a strong headed in that direction as it is, what's your experience dealing with lots of people that are wanting to, you know, identify the bread
of it, there's a few different things, I think.
Some people naturally have a niche, right, or a strong point of differentiation in the market. So they just that is quite unique individuals, or brands or products. So they just have an innate ability to cut through. And people can kind of gravitate towards them more or people see them more or identify them more. Whereas for other people, and this is you know, when we come back to authenticity, when we're talking about branding is a big thing, is that you can definitely guys, I guess curate a brand and curate a storey and kind of reverse engineer a brand around a product. You know why?
I think it's hindsight is 2020. Right? And so brands that have done it amazingly. You know, where they kind of stumbled into it. Yeah. And then they're like, oh, we're onto something. Let's go hard here. Yeah, but then when you try and then dissect it, you can
Yeah. If you dissect it and and try and use that approach on a new product or a new Yeah, right. Yes, it probably Yeah, there's a high chance of work
yeah. So I think a lot of it does come down to
sometimes it lock absolutely locked right product right time.
So I'll give you an example as I suppose in in, in my earlier career, if you did we have stoking time soon that's right times you
guys is the big question. What do you think what do you think Jen? I think it to x you the x something around the chromosome? Well, I
conspiracy Jimmy was telling me a conspiracy.
When you have friends like conspiracy, Jamie, it gets real. All I will say
is the barista in Shepperton. He's uncle owned to x Yuto two times, you know, but he's got a private jet. And literally when it was amazing, I went to this cafe, like ship it in two and a half hours away. I'm interested because I know ne ne ne said, I was like, What did you do last night? He's like, I was in Adelaide. What do you mean, you're in Adelaide? He's not yet I flew over. yet. We went to a concert. And we came back
last night. I mean, the only one using Christ.
Starting to question.
three founders, one of them have a jet no died. Oh, no, no. No.
Tough times. And USA two times? Well, based on the product helps you elevate yourself to a level of two times performance, Josh?
That's right. Yeah.
So yeah, three times us. One of us have a real human performance multiplied by, you know, I cannot tell you the number of in the American side to buy you buy
you to buy. Yeah, I don't know maybe Did they say buy with his in six by three?
Oh, yeah. What did I say to 10? You?
What are the what are they saying? Would you say two x two times to buy? I would take I would say two times you
Okay, everybody spread know.
Canada, always a good market.
And sorry, so we we digress. But
I did stalk and I saw you work there for six years. Yeah.
That's seven and a half.
times the real question is what's two times six?
I just want to be sure here. Can you see it was six and something? I'm going to be wrong? LinkedIn because it does the math for you. Oh, yeah,
that's, that's a great thing. About six and
a half gave me too much credit saying I actually wouldn't do
that. I've just had my storey around here.
How much? How much difference was there between?
Now Yeah, right. Um,
incredible, less active way now.
Oh, my God. So I guess back to that back, you know, back to my day in days in La Crosse. There's a lot of Walker flying around a lot of triathletes it was it was an unhealthy
lot of jet planes that allow you to live. Yeah.
That was three, three trips to Hawaii on man, which was that was phenomenal. Incredible. brilliant career chapter about had numerous emails from friends or friends of friends, copying and other person saying, Belinda, we've been having this debate at the pub, you know, for the last six weeks, and I really need you to tell me that. What is it to buy? You are to it. It's not a
and again and again. But we actually you know,
was like we were
taught and said Dorito campaign around the so. But every time it was flat stick? No, you got to let people have their own conversation. Talking Points. So if you hear someone talking about you, Brian in the pub, you guys having conversation to Jake's whatever. Let him go for it.
It's a tick you this you're being spoken off.
But it's also the thing of there's probably more power in allowing people to apply their own. Yes, storey. Yeah. Let's even stick Yeah. So I guess like, how important is that to have a brand that has one specific storey that's universal? Yeah. versus having a brand that plays different storeys to different audiences? Yeah.
That kind of malleability. I think, um, I think there's actually, you know, pluses and minuses to both. Yeah. Why? I mean, there's nothing better than a strong storey. Yes. Okay. And so that was the idea behind three times you supposed to be literal, human performance multiplied. So we, we make the gear that makes you be two times better than you are now more, it's based on the insight that everyone wants to be better than they are now. Right. So that's why we go to the gym. That's why we just keep going and going and push ourselves or what have you. And, you know, back to a question, which was, you know, whether you should have something, I think that was a strong storey, but ultimately people can interpret it in the way that they want. I think there's got to be room for creative interpretation. Yeah, with the brand because that's what makes it ultimately aspirational. And you've got to have a critical connexion with the audience and the ability to connect with the audience. I think that's the most important thing. But you know, also as we go back to I think we were asking Tommy around you know, right time right place and you know, in terms of launching a brand and what stage at that in those formative years of toe times you it's interesting because in my new life now I've had a you know, a lot of opportunities to start working with another sports brand or another you know, company that wants to launch a lot of lock or something of a saying they want to be as big as there's always companies Lou lemon, and um, there's always an aspiration of you like they've seen what a lot of people have done in that space and done very well. I think the tricky thing for me is that when I look at potential clients or clients that wanting to enter a really aggressive space that has a lot of players you know, it's a really crowded space but you know, when we first launched two times you're really went hard with storage on z that was exceptional success you know, over the years that I was there. The growth was over 1,000% it was massive that was probably around a handful of stores in Australia when we started and we were distributing into it it five countries around the world by the time I left the business so huge huge growth and really successful storey for an Australian brand so really, really exciting. But to a degree you know, was it just right place right time there was no one doing hot phones locker then and definitely no one that was operating in that pointy end and locker really wasn't cool then you know, you know we talked about the yummy mummies Yeah, pushing friends in LA they don't necessarily exercise but yeah, so they were really on that wife. So at times you can be lucky and be on a wave you know, you look at there's a lot of brands out there now that are riding that that wellness wave and the wave of influencer marketing and
you sceptical and based on you saying you being part of a different wave and seeing how it ends up going.
Well, I guess there is the thing with waves is they I guess that they're coming in, they're going and it's sort of it doesn't miss it because there's a white now. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I'm always Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I mean,
syndicate hot. And
I've seen like some of those, you know, there's a sigh bowl plans. Yeah, I saw one on Gumtree
we could even
I think cafe menus are fascinating. Yeah,
well, I say the side trend or however you said super foods super food trend. Yeah, people opened you know franchise furniture. I saw one on Gumtree for 150 grand was it aside brothers Brighton a whole cafe not just get it confused with how expensive the balls to start with? Yeah, but yeah, that is interesting. What about burgers?
donuts? Like there's always train like I tried to find a Darren out in Melbourne the other day, it was
a genuine diet. That wasn't
vegan. Yeah, but no.
Just trying to find exactly. So many it closed down like these donut places. Just like, you're right. Yeah. And how many times like I know that Tommy and I will constantly be walking down streets, looking for looking for donuts, but also thinking about like putting the lens of business owners that know how much laces and just being like, How the fuck are any of these businesses actually operating? Yeah,
well, I think that does, you know that, that flows into in terms of fads or trends is a straight startup culture. Like we are startup mad. I think startups an interesting word, working with a client recently, and we were talking about and their their business that are focused on what we call the growth, growth phase of our businesses. So they actually mentor and work closely with businesses that have broken through those startup ears, and they're there are legit business. So they're operating in the ilk of, you know, probably, you know, 50 mil plus. And really, in those bulky growth years and kind of working with them to scale, potentially in a pathway to securing equity or investment and so forth. And, but we're talking about, you know, what is what is startup actually mean? Like, isn't everyone to start off with this stuff? Yeah. Or does a startup just mean? I think everyone, everyone likes to launch in businesses. I've got a startup. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well have any startups. I think a lot of a lot of businesses dangerously like to start their own venture. And there's so many forums and events now as they come along and hear about how to run your own business and put your business on social media and to, you know, Instagram your way to success, etc. A lot of people think that, well, okay, I'll just build a website, and I'll put myself on Instagram, and I've got a product, that's okay. And everything will kind of just fly from there. They think about maybe I've got the money to we like the first couple of years, 681 to two years. And then once I've got the income revenue coming in, gotta fly. Well, it's like it's really expensive. Yeah, like, especially online now.
Digital Marketing, to compete, because it's so noisy.
But it's also I think that it's turned into a status play or status symbol to go to side hustle. Yeah, I gotta say, so I've got a start up on even podcasting has become an accessory, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So.
And that begs the question, I mean, what about so easy? What would you call it call these guys? Is this year side hustle? So big medical? Yeah.
I think for us, for us, it's, we definitely say this is a media brand, that we're building that, and that's beyond a podcast.
Yeah, we've also done some redefining of, of what this means for us, you can easily see it at the start. And I think, you know, we've spoken to someone that went to a, you know, that they're in the media, and they're quite successful. I went to a course with course said to them, you know, they're basically saying, working out how to determine whether this is just a hobby or not. Whereas I didn't like that thinking from that teacher, you know, how you identify because it's just a reframing, right, we could think this is a hobby, or we could take it seriously and have it as an integral part of our day. Yeah, where we show up, and it just becomes, and so we end up focusing on us each and every day. And it became we work around it, you know, we have other things that we do is it just becomes a piece of our day. Yeah.
Yeah. It is what it is. You have a labour, labour labour in your toolkit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
I guess also, because we're sceptical with the fact that, that we, that there are people that are just coming out with podcast and doing all this sort of stuff. It's like, how do we call bullshit bullshit on ourselves in thinking that this is just an accessory for us? So it's like, for us, it's about, okay, we're committing to 10 years, and we're doing all of these things to make sure that it's like, it actually isn't just a fad. Yeah, we're not just trying to ride a wave, and then saying, okay, we're gonna go on to the next thing. Yeah. Which, and I guess that's a mix of that technology, where it's like that minimum viable product. So it's like, just get out there and start making, but then also have the, in the back of our mind, how can we start to build things? Yeah. So yeah, you can look at it today and go this is in no means minimum viable product. Yeah. But a year and a half ago, when we were using two USB microphones, it was until feels like a step it Yeah,
I think as well, if you look at the bigger equation is a
a lot of sort of thought around things like
parallel brands, you know, and if you think there's, there's quite a lot of brands going on here. You know, there's there's the daily talk show. There's YouTube, you've got your personal brand. And so you, Josh, and then, you know, updates, you got another brand. Yeah. So I think, but they all are working to complement each other and, and they're all sort of, they're all functioning in parallel. So they will make sense. So they're all serving as proof points, or the other brand, and they complementing each other. So it makes sense. Yeah. And they value adding the other into the other brands as well. So it's not like it's something that's just a side hobby. That's not giving great value to you, as a professional and a, I guess, a separate personal brand in itself. And it's not even not giving value to the other businesses that are
upstairs. Yeah. I mean, how many people have a side hustle, and they call it that because it gives them the comfort of not going All right, here we go. This is a side hustle. That's what I'd love to be doing. But you know, I've got this other thing I do.
It can be a pet, I guess it can be a pacifier from like the. And I remember I went through this. I'm really curious to know about your transition from employee running, running your own business, because I think that, for me, it's all there's always been such a massive storey wrapped wrapped up in it, because it's, it's a soul. It's a solo pursuit. Even if you've got some supportive network around you, you go from having a bunch of colleagues. And so there is that that sort of perception around it. What, what was that like, for you that that transition?
It was really challenging? And how did it happen? So I suppose in my final, you know, there was, there was maybe a couple of years when I knew that I wanted to get out of the business that I was in at that point in time. And but I was so it was such a big role. It was a huge role and was so fast paced, and I loved it so much that I've just immersed myself in the work. And that's kind of part the work, and that I was operating in a sweet spot. But also part the way I'm wired is we also
work where you also defined by your like, I think for the like, brands that are doing it really wow. brand
in this global at the start of your title. Yeah.
And that's coming from the way of global.
Yeah, I just thought yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, so what was that reframing for you? So
my point was, I didn't even have the headspace to work out what, you know, I'm going to jump over and do that next big thing. I just, I couldn't really, and I think this is true of a lot of people that have a side hustle. So actually, I had about nine weeks annual life bank in the system. And I think I got to a point where something happened. And I was like, actually, that's, you know, that's nail in the coffin. Yeah. I'm out of resigned. But you know, I've got nine weeks in your life, and my partner was really supportive. He said, Just Just do it. Just get out and take a break. You actually know during a break? Yeah, actually, I got I
have to be a catalyst like it. The thing that I've always found is whenever exiting a business, and maybe this is my personality, but it's never just this like nice transition of like, I've decided that I'm leaving. It's always like, volatile. There is. Yeah, like, I think that that is a universal thing that maybe isn't spoken about enough, because everyone wants to, it never looks good. When you're going from one thing to another thing to be? It feels like it rubs off on yet right? So there is a sense of like, Okay, I'm going to reframe this, I'm going to ignore these sorts of things. But I guess what, we
has a moment where they're like, I'm done. Yeah, I think, you know, there's a turning point where it's a non negotiable. Yeah, I feel that actually. And for me, I think I think I cried at work. That's, I don't cry work. Yeah. And this isn't going to be a regular habit. So
stop crying or quit. So you Yeah.
And I'm not look out ahead, you know, family members for a while to saying it's finished. Sorry, took that jumped out and had that time, but I never remember, I was never job hunting. I just so I think I was definitely burnt out. And I was not in the headspace and and just didn't have an interest to jump into a similar role. So I didn't take long, maybe like took a couple of weeks. And I thought actually, you know, I'm just gonna do some consulting for a while. And didn't take long, just to spread across my network. And I think one of the most powerful things that I did in terms of working out what I wanted to do and what I wanted to be and how I was positioned myself in the market was, or I should probably get a website up. No. And that's one of the exercises I often put on people is to say, Okay, well, if you needed to develop a website for yourself, if you needed to, whether you're a consultant, or you know, for this talking figuratively, what would it look like? What would what would it feel like? What's the colour scheme? You know, what would your tone of language be? You know, what are your products? But then what's, what's your process going to be? And what's your secret sauce? You know, you're talking about secret sauce in advertising a lot. And, you know, what's, what's that going to look and feel? So that really forced me to work out. Okay, well, what are you going to offer? And how are you going to position yourself and what kind of brands and clients are you going to be open to? But I guess going back to your question, original question, Josh, I think it took me it was really confronting because it made me realise that I 90% of my world was work. So once you get off and literally getting off the treadmill, from being in that kind of fast paced environment, is to go to be they actually had people on tonight working
sometimes and in the back, that'd be someone on I am on a. You know,
it's like an exercise bike show just testing the Nila
training for Hawaii. I'm sure. I'm sorry. It was it was leaving brace culture. Yeah, really Murthy which was you know, what made it brilliant. But it took a while to go, okay, what's going to be my new working rhythm? And no, I don't have to be at my laptop at that particular time every single day. And I don't have to leave the house at 530 to go to the gym and then be at work and have my breakfast at work. And then, you know, get home late. And you know, it took me two months, probably, like a year for me to be okay with a new group of I mean, you guys know what it's like to live and work for yourself. And I think the biggest learning for me is all around. I've always been quite disciplined person. But is that self discipline to a next level to the point where you have to be totally across your well being and your workload and what roles you're going to have yourself.
You know, a lot of responsibility, personal responsibility, I think empowering. And I think
it's not for everyone. Definitely, absolutely. No, I think that comes back to the whole, you know, people that are like, I've got a side hustle. It's like, well, is that because I heard you guys speak recently on another podcast you have made Jordan? Jordan Michael ad? That's it. Yeah. And you were talking about? hobbies? People don't really have hobbies anymore. Yeah. And it's so true. So like, maybe these whole my side hustle is kind of my hobby, which is fine. Which is great. But I think there's also a pressure that hobbies have to have a value to them. And you know, what are you doing that for? Like, what's that contributing? You know, what's the, what's the greater good of you just TINKERING AWAY? What will
you do? We have to call it Assad. Because then it becomes like a status play when we want to make money from the hobby, because then other people looking at me, like, look at me. I'm making money. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a funny one. But I think I think the personal brand stuff is a is personal. And there's a great, it's, there's personal development within the brands, like the website, and you know, if you're not even looking at doing a business, it's like, how, what, what's the substance of you? What do you have to show for you? Like, we're just vessels that if we don't talk? Yeah,
what's you know, anything? Yeah.
So it's like, what's the inner workings of you? And how can we see that visually? Yeah, read it. Yeah. Listen to it. Yeah, yeah,
you're gonna have music? Or like, you know, what is it? Yeah.
Exactly. Is it gonna be totally Yeah, you know?
Is it going to be intense? You know, is it going to be, you know, bright and colourful, or minimalistic, or like, hugely visual, or just, you know, lots of words or, you know, it can be really powerful thing. And I think it depends if you want visual verbal person, or you know, that kind of stuff. So, maybe, maybe you don't, maybe it's not a website, maybe you have a podcast, or, you know, and again, that comes back to who your audience is, and what your objectives are.
Well, they they all come down to asking questions like, I think Tommy and I constantly sitting in meetings with businesses, and we're realising that the video we're making is the catalyst for them to sort this shit out. Oh, yeah. Much bigger scale. Yeah, it's like, okay, that you could be doing, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of revenue, but you may not still know why the fuck you doing? Absolutely. And so I mean, so
you're iterating, that you're either writing a brand for them as you are producing something, which is actually really frustrating. Yeah, you guys, I get that. And I work. I work quite often or closely with a couple of agencies, often PR agencies or creative agencies that have a client on retainer, for example, and they might be a couple of months into a new engagement and going, you know, what we? Yes, we've signed the client. And you know, yes, you've got a really healthy return about a kind of set up a family here, because the client doesn't know who they are. They don't know really, who their audience is what success looks like. Exactly, exactly. Or, and ultimately, the agency will bring ideas to the table, and the client will just either be a yes client, or just like, yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. You know, any news is good news, or any placement is good news is good placement. But then, you know, proverbial shit hits the fan, when they get to the 12 months. And they go, Well, our sales haven't liked it. Or we've still got this whole product in in a warehouse and just hadn't moved. Or we've got no engagement around our social media, or what's going on, like, we just spent all this money as well. We never sat down and talked about what your brand actually is. Because you probably haven't spent the time to think about it. Therefore, who the audiences and therefore what, you know, what platforms should we be getting coverage on? Or who should we be influencing? In order to really shift? And I don't
think it's because it's a, it seems like a luxury for a lot of businesses. So website, for instance, tangible, video tangible, spending two days, in a workshop to work out branding, extremely important, but harder. From a tangibility point of view. It's it's not as external. Do you find that as a?
It's not like your physical asset?
Yeah, it doesn't, you don't have the physical, like they see, like, a lot of people will come to us knowing they want a video. Or it's probably a similar accessory to that of having a podcast or whatever, it's based on this idea of our competitors are doing it or LinkedIn is promoting video at the moment. So I need to be doing a video, but doesn't have that sort of substance? Have you got ways of sort of? Yeah, right.
Yeah, it's a good point around the sort of case studies, for example. So
yeah, because people will come to you and say, I'll give me give me some examples of the videos you've done. Right? So how, how do I do that? So there's a few different ways, obviously, you know, showcasing the clients that I have worked with, but ultimately, it's the testimonials and word of mouth, I think that's where it really comes in. But it is tricky. Because, yes, there are I'm not going to say every single client has has taken what the work that I've done and run with it. Because to a certain degree, you've got to hand that over. And you've got to say, here's the here's the brand stuff. But it's only ever going to be as powerful as the way in which you interpret it and then run with it, like a psychologist
or something, right? Like it can be extremely valuable if the person at the other end to be willing,
you need to implement Yes, and you need the disciples within your businesses at living and breathing. And it's not just a campaign, like it's, you know, a brand, a brand campaign is different from, you know, brand marketing is different from product marketing, and a campaign is different from a new brand, and so forth. So how do I demonstrate that, I think, ladies, it's a lot around that that word of mouth pace, and I never really go back to clients for a testimonial and to six months, or 12 months down the track and say, You know what, and you know, the ones to go to, because, you know, they're just flying and you know, that that that moment in time has been the turning point for them going, you know what, since that time, since we sat down and did that work, and we really articulated, what we are and who we stand on what we stand for, and who we're chasing down. Everything else, and the business has become that much more efficient. Decisions are that much easier, we've narrowed in on who we're chasing, we've sharpened up our product line, etc, it just, it just has made that that much more difference. So you've always got to be careful about, you know, when is the right time, because it does take time, it's not, you know, it's like old school, PR, your results aren't going to come in instantaneously, it's going to be you know, at least six months to 12 months. So, it's definitely not as easy. And it does take that level of trust in the client, say, you've got to own this ultimately, and you got to take it on, you've got to start to bring everyone on the journey from your employees right through to your product, you know, you employee culture, but then also product development, and then your marketing, of course, you know, look and feel and aesthetics. But you know, the truest and strongest brands are the ones that are living and breathing the brand through every single touch point.
I mean, it's it's a, it's a tough challenge to come up with a set of values business that's already in existence, to get your staff live and breathe. Because the value should actually be there. You know, essentially, like how many businesses have you gone into insane on in the toilet? This? Yeah, you values. This is our values and principles. You know, it's like integrity. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so they just become words. And so we've worked with a few companies that live and breathe like, you know, I think invalid Oh, yeah, like that. They've got some great values, and they, and you can see it and you don't even have to read the board getting just talk to the people. Right? Definitely. No, but I think that the store in Australia,
I think also the, it does come down to, like, say within Votto specifically, it's like, Josh, was it? Yes, I worked there. And so there was the founder. And there are quite now the, the founder level as well to, which is I think you need to be able to, like the culture and all that sort of thing needs to be steered. And I noticed that big things can happen. Like things can go wrong within businesses. And it's working out how, how are people responding and reacting and all that sort of thing. And I feel like that's how a company like in Bartow has been able to keep their values because at every friction point at every tension, that's where you really get to see the values imply as well.
Yeah, you're right. I think the tricky thing
is, you're right, for businesses that have that are quite successful, but have, have got a great culture. And they all hang on, in order to grow, we've got to make sure that we harness and coach and we own that coach and that brand. So how do we actually define it? And there's been a lot there's some great sort of thought leadership coming out more around how to harness an existing culture that is a culture and brand and and also how to tie in and manage internal coaches in 10 with brand is they very much very much hand in hand and that basically, internal internal culture and external brand, as it really should be complementing each other and absolutely relevant and congruent, I suppose.
Yeah, I've worked in a business with a pretty toxic culture. It eats its from the inside out, which is what culture is right? The people? Yeah, that's what everyone's feeling when they walk into the office. And that same business, I spoke to someone from the outside it kind of looked revamped and stuff. I said, you know, my it's great.
Yeah, right. You know, it's that all the changes haven't? It's not, it's still the same place, which is culture. Yeah. Yeah, that would be a hard, hard task. Yeah, to revamp that
within, like, brand return on investment. And the relationship between brand and ROI feels like, within communications amount marketing brand is one of those few line items that I feel like I've sat in meetings, where executives have been okay, to have a line item for brand, without a specific ROI attached to it. As someone who lives in this space, do you think that there needs to be a bit of bit of that? Or do you think that that's a misconception on brand? That it, it isn't something that you can sort of that has that clear return on investment?
I think, if done well, brand should really feel to three every division in every department of the business. So therefore, it's a really interesting question around mean, there are certain brand investments that you'll make that will be 100% brand. Okay. So, again, a brand advertising campaign as opposed to a product advertising campaign or a brand. Yeah, brand push not so you can go Okay, well, that's dollars put into bucket. Other things will be all right business as usual brands, like what are we going to do to be to make sure that everyone is toeing the line in terms of living and breathing the brand in terms of you know, from again, product development, right through to creative, and HR? And we're recruitment, etc, etc. So, I think the the needs are probably they an onus of responsibility shared across almost like every division needs to pick up a bit of that, in addition to perhaps brand itself, so I think it probably could, in a, in a best case scenario really should be spread across the board. So
how do you then measure? How do you measure something like that? Do you think? It's a really good question?
I think, ultimately, it depends on again, what what success looks like. So if say at the start of your particular you go, Okay, well, our goal for the brand is to really forge into increase just overall awareness, right? Okay. So, you could measure that through any kind of brand awareness or community witness, touch points or you could look at things like social media followings, or you know, followings on La as brand podcast, or what have you. Or, you know, you could step back in and also, you know, go back to, you know, what, what is success? You know, what are we aiming for, for the business? Are we wanting to launch into a particular new product channel, or particular new, you know, market segment in another country? I think you've got to tie it back to what, what that particular goal is ultimately,
so is there a reframing of brand? Is there something? Is there a way of describing it? So, based on goals, I guess that could be very different, right? So, say, within a brand, if you were to do a workshop and realise that the employer brand or the perception of the people is a bit toxic, or whatever, yeah. And there's a piece on that the weirdness is that you could say, okay, the tool to fix that is we need to create employer brand content, so say video content or a website or whatever, micro site that starts to highlight some of the positive things, but then it's not necessarily actually fix it, it's not fixing the root of the problem, which is that maybe people satisfaction within the businesses low. Within that example, would that mean that you'd potentially have to, from a branding exercise? If it's like, we want to be say, a great place to work? Yeah. Is it actually then starting it, changing how they work? Like, rather than it being any external communication? whatsoever? It's actually an internal thing?
I'm trying to make sure I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly.
In the metric of success there,
yeah, well, I guess it all it's like the tools that we have for brand. So we have like all these tools, I think that most people would think of, like their webs, like you think about a website, doing a podcast, about the communication protocols to actually
whereas it seems weird to think of a brand manager working out like fixing the situation in regards to toilets or something like that, like an issue that's happening within the
Yep. You know, it. Is that like, from a branding from a workshop point of view, Do you ever feel like that's the unsexy bit that ends up resulting in these workshops?
I don't, I think it's,
I think it's often would be one touchpoint in a bigger equation. So it's all about, again, your proof points and working towards that authenticity. So if a brand ultimately wants to position themselves as an equal opportunity employer, or wants to even be, you know, social conscious, social conscious brand, or brand focused on social impact, or what have you, it's, it's not going to be good enough to be sane, and same as doing things out in, you know, remote communities without ultimately living a great culture, having a great culture internally, as well. So I think it's what you were saying before around, yes, you can be all shiny on the outside. But if you go in, and it's still shit storm, then that's just not not going to fly. And ultimately, it's going to end rival at some point. And, you know, with that, when or when, where it happens, doesn't really make a difference. But I think strong, strong brands get built from the inside, and their employees will be leaving that brand. And the got to be true at every touchpoint I think it's also understanding that your, your employees, ultimately your brand ambassadors as well. And, and they are also proof points of your brand. So it's no good. You know, obviously, inconsistency is would be a major issue for the brand. But you've got to also know that all of your employees are ultimately your most powerful ambassadors, they're out there advocating for the brand or not. There, they've all got their own LinkedIn profiles, they've all got conversations happening at the water cooler, but also at the pub, you know, with their families, they're all going away your product and use your product, they're all they're going to be proud to say that they work for your brand or not,
you know, you can't put a muzzle on that kind of stuff,
you the companies you're working with, you seeing them invest in their staffs personal brand, traditionally CEO, and you know, the CMO, the C suite there,
I think that's definitely, definitely having a lot more. I think a lot of big businesses are investing in things like LinkedIn strategies, thought leadership strategies, making sure they're training up a cohort of thought leaders or people within their organisations, who are capable of supporting their brand strategy around being positioned as Brand X. So it's okay, we want to, we need to start producing more content around supporting us as a leader in x. So therefore, we need to make sure that our employees are, you know, subject matter experts in these particular areas and unable to articulate themselves verbally in keynotes, in industry, conventions, etc, etc. So absolutely, that is happening a lot more. And I am, you know, I am going to be actually working with a couple couple more brands in this new financial year round training up pay for be able to articulate, articulate themselves in order to support their businesses objectives like that an interesting one,
where you want them to be able to clearly articulate what the business does. It's
because the business is just made up of people. Yes. And some you don't have the people talking. Yeah. It's a bit hard.
Exactly. It's, it's, it's a little false.
Yeah, if you were to sit if you're looking for a job, I mean, this is not exclusive to people who are just wanting to do their own thing. But if you're looking for a job, and there was two people, and one of them had a strong personal brand, and the skill set, the other person just had the skills, it makes sense, who you end up going with
what is a strong personal
brand, main strong brand, whether whether it is just elements that they are able to articulate of their personality that resonate within the business. Yeah. So I think about it. And yeah, you're right, you could question that. But if you go, this person seems, you know, friendly, you might be able to search them up and see their past work they presented? Well, they've got a website, whether it be just a one page, you know, something like that, where they've just done a piece of work around, this is who I am, this is what I have to offer. Maybe doesn't even have to be confident, maybe those aren't the trades that need to be shown on the day. But there is something outside of just he's my skill set, I can
do that in front of you. Absolutely. Right. I think there's a one of the most powerful cases in point there is in your reference check, right? So when you get to save a, someone wants to join your teams and wants to join your business. You pretty much take all that stuff is a given, right? Everything that's written down on the page, and you can go to people's LinkedIn profiles and have a look at what he achieved in terms of that capability. And their KPIs and the projects I've worked on etc. But ultimately, what is going to make or break you getting that role is the conversations that are going to be had when the reference checks at a dumb and when I do reference checks off, I'm going to call
Cole Josh and ask about you don't do
that I do
so so this guy Tommy. I'm not going to say or I will only save a it says, you know, he's achieved 50% growth over the last six months and he's managed a team of 20 is that true? Yes. I'm not actually gonna say that.
I'm gonna say competition I wanted in 2012
so I didn't notice that it was involved in a pancake way, you know, eating competition, but number one, can you tell me is that something that he does often, like, culture based guy is he
actually question to answer.
What do you say? I would say yeah, he did. Do a paint pancaking pancake eating Sam factor in competition. He's a fun guy. I mean, what's the role that's what is he going because I've got this business with him.
What what's the stick like? Can you tell me about the way in which he goes about his role? And is he a sort of you know, heads down? up? Yeah, it gets shit done.
Does he deliver on promises he always been a bomb on me tell you so I worked for this gym. And this is when I was probably 17 and there was this guy who was the manager there bit of a slimeball he was okay he ended up completely ripping off this gym taking kept telling people go down to the ICM get some cash at you know do a good deal on this membership ship pocketing the cash thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars worked out that he was the one doing it. cops were after him he went for a job and he put the fucking gym as a reference gym got a phone call cuz you gotta put some way and he's like how they won't call we must make this a cold was like hey just wanting to understand about this guy blah blah blah absolutely not
We're offering where's he
can we come get him who has done an absolutely shocking job at their own personal brand Miss to 97 love him to pieces and he said when he when he first social or No, I'll give you the I shouldn't have now put down a presupposition
when you say presupposition a lot where do they have in case but I
so I've already tainted her mind? He says like ways it was when I was doing my coaching calls. Let's punch in guys. Yeah, my coaching the Coaching Institute when I was 20 today, so that was just talking about presupposition. So it could be like a manipulative technique. Right. So like, I think I've influenced you to now think that he's going to share personal brand. The worst, you know, you could encourage or there's multiple ways to celebrate. Oh, yeah. So in the car last night, my wife's listening to an old podcast of ours with Jordan Evans. Were you in the car? I just got in and I had to shut it off. She's like, no, I need to show you this. And it was one of the first episodes where I mentioned Mr. 97. He didn't have nice nice, haven't I just said this young bloke, okay has reached out to me in the title of the email was our work for free. And you do some due diligence. The kid has nothing online didn't even have an Instagram profile. Don't even LinkedIn. But just nothing. He's never had a job before wouldn't have been able to get a reference. Like I mean, if that's just like an alien.
Maybe that was a conscious decision.
Maybe he can speak for himself. He does talk.
Yeah, well, I mean,
I found it. I found it hard and sort of weird to develop a personal brand. It just felt we're doing it at that. I mean, like I didn't want to intense last year. Yeah. I didn't want to intentionally like putting out stuff I just felt like coming out of school it was it was arcade and not have anything there. It was it was like a good starting point to be able to stop building on and so
is it says Brandon
siloed is but now I think your luck out though. I thought for as if
So were you inherently
sceptical because you couldn't find what anything or a little bit
on that thing? I said he could just be a sack of my time. Which I still is no, no. He's lovely. But his flowers under I got it. No, but I think yeah, I think you go well, if if you if that is your approach to try and get work, and I think there's probably ways that you could just increase in it's not Hey, let's just do a resume. He's my regiment. Yeah. Like I'd be more inclined to hire someone that doesn't send a resume sends a nice thoughtful email. Yeah. Referencing things that we may have done because we're not. Yeah. Yeah. But also, sometimes in the video just doing something that's slightly Yeah. Terrible. It's amazing that he's here.
What do you think? What was the hook?
The freebie? Audience what I did what I think I did do though, is I gave a human a chance speaking to someone I had a coffee with him. Yeah. Even though he didn't drink anything, because he still drinks coffee or hot chocolate. Yes. Well,
I asked you when you say yes. You like the hot chocolates, don't you? Yeah, occasionally. Yeah. He just doesn't want the most aside
for the pedalling. malleable, yeah,
he bit I met him and I was just like, and then I gave him, you know, he came in and we did stuff, and I just saw the potential in him. But how do you see that? So I think there's a lesson in it from a lot of people. Yeah. Coming out of school, that mindset, I'm coming out of school. What if I got to offer? Well, you've got 18 years of life? Yeah. And there has to be something in there doesn't have to be job. You don't have to work it only?
Because it's not actually you rot. What, what you're saying is it doesn't have to be specific to your who abilities. It can just show your creative process and the way your mind was. So anything that would have celebrated you as an individual and showing that you had taken the consideration? Oh, no, sorry. He did say I've given him no credit. He did come up with a few ideas for me.
With the ideas I
should ask, but
do you remember one of them?
I think I think I said more content around like, similar stuff like rejection therapy. Okay, that sort of stuff. But he did actually put forward a few ideas. We should just make those videos. I've got a could find those emails.
Yeah, that'd be good. I mean, what's what's nice series? Yeah. blender, what's your thought on younger people who are coming up? They might not even have the traditional job path of being an employee somewhere. I'm curious as to your perspective around meeting with clients. Yeah, having a coffee with them? What's actually what is going through your head in those moments? Is it because I know for me, I'm constantly you know, first impression thinking about that sort of stuff. How What are you? What are you? What boxes are you ticking in your head when you're meeting someone for the first time?
I want to know their storey.
I always want to know the why. Yeah. Like what So firstly, why don't you start this thing?
From that perspective?
Yeah. Well, I mean, what I'm also curious about is there's those questions, but do you have an internal monologue on yourself and how you're like, because you're a bride? Yeah. And there's, like, I think about like, a, I guess even thinking about the Seth Godin chat that we we had when we were in New York. And I was like, one thing I learned from Tommy is when someone like like, he asked, How do you want to take your coffee? And I said on note, like, my default is always like, No, thank you. And Tommy said, Yes. And then it was great. Like he had the mug and it was also think, yeah, that's it. I was like, that was that was one thing where it's like, my default he was no, but there's something in like, okay, like, if I had done that yet, could have been a better experience. So
I think it's always a balance between No, go ahead. It's morning, right? Yes, I was like, do I put boots on? I don't know it. Come on, guys. pretty casual. Are you wearing Nike shoes?
It's it's like, hey,
but then part of it was also like, get a bit more energy, put your heels on, you know, whatever. But there's questions. Firstly, know your audience. Always. Okay. Sorry. Is it a corporate gig? Who is this person? I'm meeting with it? I say you're there like an executive brand client. It's very, it's a given.
Say yes. To Seth.
See to say yes.
still I get what you're saying. But the idea of Seth making me a tea. I know. But it was a Yeah.
I rejected God. I regret it.
Yeah. But also the mugs real quick. There was a storey behind the mugs. But yeah.
I love that thinking though. If you said yes. To that it would have Yeah, cuz that's how we ended up talking about the man. And so there's everything every,
there's nothing we can do to be open to opportunities. Yeah. where it's like, Yeah. Like, I'm the Shaka with it. Like I have built a storeys around going up and paying for shit. Like, if I'm out to some way with Bry. My girlfriend like she normally fact with dealing, especially if it's a group situation. Yeah, I'm just so like, I'm, I don't like big group situations anyway. So the least you can do is sought out this class to fight like, okay, it's my default has always been I'll just pay or over like, whatever. Yes, yeah. But all of those things. Like they're running through everyone's minds. And so I guess that's part of it is like we do here the, you know, what you need to be asking them and all that sort of thing. But how do maybe not time? But how do you work with the internal monologue of yourself and your self image and what you're presenting?
So my, yeah, it is absolutely that sweet spot between going okay, I've got it, I've got to present in the right way. For the audience. Okay, so, yes, first impressions matter. So be respectful enough to carry yourself in a way that looks like you've actually dress like you give it?
Yeah, I'm also close to shaving my Neck Beard tonight as well. And I was like, I was literally were gone perfect casual here. Like I said, yes to the teeth.
Anyway, so you know, your audience and you're sitting, etc. More often than not, when I'm meeting someone for the first time, and he's a pretty casual coffee. But I also, I'm always telling myself, you just need to be yourself. Because if you're not yourself, you're not going to be able to communicate, like usually you're not going to be able to be free to actually engage in a proper conversation. But also, I go into those meetings, thinking, you know what, this isn't about me? Yeah, it's not about me, it's actually about me, understanding the client or the potential client, and learning about them and the opportunity just to have a really good conversation. Yeah. So I don't I get excited by those meetings. I don't stress about them at all. I love having those conversations. And ultimately, I think it's very much to the right exchange. So if I don't like them, I'm gonna take them away. Yeah. And if I'm not engaged by what they're potentially taking on, or if I'm not really thinking that they've got this shit together, or you know, so I think it's a two way exchange, absolutely. I need to get myself in a spot where I am feeling free to be me, in order to open myself up to a proper conversation. But that is, ultimately my key goal in life. First meetings is about building trust. And you can't build trust with someone without having a proper genuine conversation and connexion. And therefore authentic, open conversation. So you don't want to go in with too many objectives. You just want the conversation to roll? Naturally. Yeah. And to provide them a comfortable forum for sharing this storey? Because, ultimately, you know, they worked more often than not really hard at whatever it is they're sharing with you. And I love talking about it.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I feel like in some ways, you're viral. You're far along in the journey in regards like, you've got the luxury of whitelist. And yourself, you understand yourself with based on you've got experience? Yeah, a bunch of stuff on your web. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so there was a huge, I've even noticed having the podcast, before having the podcast versus now. Yeah, there's a certain posture that I can go into meetings, because it's like, I'm not the person who's starting a podcast. Yeah, have one. Yeah, we're doing it. And so there's a huge amount of confidence. That actually, I don't really think
if I had started on guess
you had nine gifts. And so that's, that's a massive thing. If you were to if you were to think about it. From that, you know, starting from scratch, starting from scratch, what is what does that? What does that look like? And what was the sum of the monologues in your head at the very beginning, when it's like your first client out? Because you've obviously done made a bunch of mistakes to get to this refined? point? What were you obsessing over at the beginning? What was the
I think maybe, maybe that was part of part of the magic? I think, you know, as I mentioned, when I first started, I really took that pressure off myself, to develop a thing. And I said, for the first 12 months, just give, because I think maybe in my mind, I sort of said, it's it's a bit of a break, you know, break between the next real job, you know, so the first I said, Just Just try anything for the first 12 months.
And that's a reframing or perspective, hundred percent self serving. So serving one yeah. Not everyone.
I didn't put that pressure on myself. I just was like, Well, something comes to these. That's great. That said, there were a lot of learnings in the first 1212 months, two years, three days, well, you know, you still learn, but around how to process so you know, and not cheap and what you're offering and not, you know, delivered too much over and above every time. And I'm still learning that. And you just continue to do that, you know, throughout the business, you guys will know that running your own business and working and pausing and what's rotten, all that kind of stuff. But I think it was because I didn't take that pressure off myself for the first 12 months. But if there was going to be some advice, I think it is around, you know, and that rings true to anyone that's thinking about their brand is if again, going back to the original conversation, what do I want to be known for? And what do I want people to come to me for? What are my proof points, like I can't just go in there and say I'm an expert on x without actually having the proof to back it up. So you need to think about, you know, what is it that one of the reasons that people can trust you? And why should they trust you with a storey? And what are you going to bring that's different from the other guy that's going to come and have coffee next week. So whether that is, you know, the way you make someone feel all the work that you've done, or the way other people talk about you? Or the way your website just rocks?
There's got to be something that is your thing. You know,
what do you do if the thing that people want to talk about or know, like, want to apply to you? Yeah, isn't the narrative or the brand that you want? So for instance, if you were like, you know, I had seven and a half years, at two times you Yeah, right. But actually, like, that was not may or that's different that actually that's that bit of the storey. I don't want to be my storey anymore. And how can we can we change that? If brand is what you know, people are saying about us? When we're not there? Or, you know, the promises we make whatever it is? How can we how can we adjust that storey?
That's interesting, because I think it was the quarry.
There's a quote around, you shouldn't you should never be the former someone, you know. I really liked that. I think it was, you know, you got to be careful about holding on to Ryan narratives or things that you did previously. Well, what are you doing now?
With the accolades with why even we had Craig Bruce on who was one of the highest content people in the country in radio. And that's what I found, which was like I can see, he's, where he's going now is really exciting. But also there is that thing of when you have done phenomenal things that might be just in a different field that has that, like, it's very hard. Yeah. Well, you've done something that worked. Yeah, yeah. And so you think Yeah, yeah. But then you hold on to that, because you think it's going to leverage the next thing, but you don't even hold on? I guess the risk is that it's, it can serve you to talk about it. It's like Yeah, yeah. So for instance, you could get other lycra brands for sure. Based on a pedigree, yeah, I'm the two times you person. And so that concert below.
Yeah, I knew
that can be that can be sure. But it's also um, can also be a pain in the ass when you just want to be doing other thing. I
think you've got it, you know, let people talk about it, they want to talk about it. And definitely bring bring some experience to the table where it where it's relevant. does come back to relevance, you know, so if I'm talking with someone that got a tampon company, or a chocolate bar company, or who works in b2b and b2c, so consulting, for example. You know, what I say about that is and I do I work with a lot of different clients, you know, whether they are in retail, or FMC j, ROC three to consulting and beta Bay. The principles of branding still apply at every point, you know, ultimately, it's about working out what makes a brand or an individual unique and different. And then understanding how to communicate that to audiences that matter to them. So it's a basic formula. Yeah. And whether you're applying it to a person or brand and whether it's a beta zero, beta, beta Bay, it's still Same, same principle. So quality branding is quality branding.
Yeah. I mean, it's hard to do, like, touch points as well. Yeah.
If you think about it, they said your personal brand or brand? And you've got Apple you think Steve Jobs virgin? No. Both generic like so you've got personal brands wrapped up within?
Yeah, those parallel brands were talking about the said
the parallel brands is do you need to have a parallel brand? This is what the main to support the main brand like it is everything you need to be know. Yeah, I mean, like Jules landers on tomorrow show. He's the founder of tribe. He's a the face of it, essentially. They're not, but they're not. So a lot of the successful brands do have a face of it.
Look at look at Apple when it comes to so brand from a brand perspective, design and aesthetic is important. Unfortunately for them that's connected with Johnny I've who's announced that he's left a letter. And so those types of I guess that's where brands and we've even heard this from businesses were wary of investing in X y&z people within the business, because they've got a two year cut, they're out the door in this this amount of time, which I think is I mean, what other options? What other options?
Agent? Yeah, I think not every CEO needs to be a public brand, alongside co founder, etc. I mean, a lot of brand brand founders say, Look, I don't want to talk about myself, it's actually about the brand. And it's about the product, especially the stock, and they don't feel comfortable with pushing their own agenda, and etc, etc, I think it only becomes a problem if their brand is significant, and public, and it's not complementing the main brand. So if it's in conflict with the main brand, that's a real problem.
And it would obviously not serve to, you know, serve, serve the main brand. So I think the early days of a brand to even make connexion with somebody, you know, people follow people, right. And so it's, it's an easy apply to make immediate connexion, you could say, just based on saying, Hi, I'm a human, versus, hey, I'm a cup company.
Well, if it's about creating a feeling, yeah, it seems to be easy. I'm making it, I think.
Yeah, and I think he's also around the startup thing. Yes. Everyone likes type of startup storey. Yeah. Why did you do these? And quite often these career pivot, storey and this. So there's a narrative and there's, you know, this is what I learned from my previous role. And this is what I bring to, you know, this new venture that I'm doing and
what's a way to articulate so if a bought businesses a problem solver? So I think that Josie is a great example. Yeah, his tribe was born out of a thing that he saw a problem that he saw, and he wanted to solve. And so it's a great way to articulate and make connexion. And I
guess he's a great example of someone who was talking to us about being in meetings with VCs. And it's, he's not getting the respect because the person he's personal brand doesn't actually connect with those people. So the guy who was on TV might be really exciting for some people. Other people say there's a liability.
Yes. Which I think they're interesting. Exactly. And there is risk. Yeah, absolutely. risks. And I think a lot of people, you do need to be careful because it does. Turn there's been several examples of
when it comes to selling, for example, so you know, people don't like people as well. So yeah.
The product exactly, you know, it's not for me, I don't like the way they do that. One of I'm a big girl fan of Tommy foster blood and what she's done. Firstly, I can go to a skincare is phenomenal success storey, again, it's built on brand, you know, 100%, beautiful brand, incredibly competitive category, cosmetics, and to, to be that successful with 100% online play in in a market like that. But obviously, knowing that she's got so much else going on, you know, she's, she's not just the wife of, and she never was absolutely She's incredible raw author, you know, founder of go to a skincare, she's got a lot of different pillars to a brand and a lot of different touch points. But that's such a powerful example of someone that is incredibly well managed. But also not in a way that it comes across as managed, you know, hugely authentic, incredibly witty, funny, smart. And that's what people connect with someone that just feels like they're just doing it, you know, there's no kind of marketing machine behind it. There's no thought or there's no strategy. Yeah, just following
your will. I mean, it's always great, because she, she's a great taste maker, who is really good at recommendations as well. And so it's like, if you've got a brand, you can't, you can't just be pushing your brand. And so I guess that is the beauty of Yeah, what she's doing as well is it gives you as you're writing, she's finding this but like she's spoken about a tiger where Bry works a bunch of times where it's not paid yet, really like I love this product. Yes. And there's another another brand on my list, you know, and that's, I guess that's like a huge thing, which is like, when you can, you know, you are being a curator and building a community beyond just the thing that you're trying to sell as well
in your communities. And absolutely, like, that's part of your first point. Are you going to surround yourself with you? And again, whether that's an individual or brand, it's like, who's going to be your brand allies, right? In a similar way to, you know, you say to say to a brand, okay, well, who would your cross promotion with who's going to be in your lineup of other appropriate brands or a new brand family that would make a sense to your community or your audience or your customer? To go? Oh, that does make sense. Yeah,
no, I it's still something I'm working at. But brand, you need audience? Well, there's, I mean, you can have a brand with no audience, but doesn't really doesn't really do much. To sell anything. Yeah. You can theorise and strategize an audience. Yes, who you are and what you do and what you offer. But from this podcast, starting to see an audience, you don't truly understand until it's there. And I think that's where it's like, you can intuitively get to a certain point, but then it's just this. Once you've got that feedback system, it's like constantly just get a Yeah, yeah. Why? Yeah. What are they? Who are they? What is it? Yeah. And so, the gronk? Um, I
think it's a great question. It's something that the beauty of being a daily podcast, is that we sort of move the levers around and see who's responding. And who's reacting.
Well, the word gronk. Why, why have we even Why do we even get there? Yeah, because I love the word. And then for some reason, I think people sort of it just sort of Yeah,
but I think if you were to deconstruct it,
I think it's really helpful for you guys. Like it's kind of a persona. Yeah, it's sort of it's good for banter. Yeah. Be honest. Yeah. Um, but it's something what helps you
justify this? Right. You know, it's it's, yeah, there's a gronk. Yeah, I'm gronk. Squad. Yeah, a lot. No, trod
what we even thought like, initially, the funny thing is, we talked about like, and we mentioned it on the show, which is part of our fuel to think about brand filters. It's like, we talk about like, we're very meta. Yeah, the fact that we're even talking about this as a thing, but it was like, a we 10 gronk or gronk. Squad, and then we landed on gronk. Squad. Yeah, the thing was that it's, I think part of it is the beauty of the word gronk. If we can have that for a moment, is that I think everyone has things about themselves. That is universally, not that. gronk Yeah, gronk. Exactly. So the only way to describe that. So the thing is that it's like, we know that we have these cranky personalities and traits. Yeah. And so I guess what does that bring in that brings in people who don't take that out of it? Yeah, yeah.
What about the gronk? Right? Well, that could be reliability. We all make decisions that affect others. And we do it for personal reasons. Like for instance, if I don't decide to wash this cup, you know, just leave it there. And I just, it's not my problem,
I guess. gronk move, but the thing is that gronk move on its own.
Yeah, exactly. That's it. That's a gronk move. But there's heaps of things we're
trying to you know what the job application Look,
I will I will.
One of the biggest gronk moves here I misspelt something 19.
The thing is, I never ride. I never write notes. And you read away because the thing is, they talk about gronk.
This is called the gronk. backpedal.
Right. No, but no, but I think that part of the negative i think that with within the gronk stuff. It's like we all have a little bit of negative self talk, or we all know a little bit yeah, that we all have shit that isn't right. And so by having a way early gronk Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we have a way of talking about it now. And it's actually like,
Yeah, you got even accurate. Yeah,
you get us with our flaws and everything. I think that's why we all about these gronk things that we do.
Yeah. Seriously, and so yeah, I think that that that definitely plays into
it, because he got all you're an idiot for doing that. Because I know whatever is going on does that.
I guess part of it too, is most people most gronk moves happen when no one's watching. Yeah. And so like our bill, and so
you guys right here right now, this is a conversation around distilling what your special sauce is, like, you know, this is the stuff that you try in a workshop to get people to articulate. And you know that as soon as you drop that little nugget, and you're like, Oh, there they go. Crazy. Yeah, like there's, there's the brand whose have had so
many ideas. Like we've thrown out so much. So many different words and stuff that just doesn't stick. Yeah, I guess it's, you talk a lot about consistency. And I guess that's part of it, which is like,
Yeah, exactly. But there is a concert when it's consistently coming up. That's what the brand stuff that stuff starts to become. Yeah. And then so I'm pretty sure that Mike, the someone called like, an audience member probably called themselves a gronk. In an email. Yeah. Which then triggered us to be like, Oh, well, you're a gronk. And you're like, it started being like a, you know, so I think it's, it's definitely interesting. But the funny the funny thing on branding, which I think the Tommy and I are always talking about even as a team, it's like, you can't have it. There is a stage where you aren't like, you know where you want to be? Yeah, but you're not there yet. And, and I think that for Hawaii? Yes. The Iron Man with
the on the two tonnes yet?
Not yet. Can we get that as a snippet of me talking about the jet? The neighbour, I think that they brought that into my narrative? Yeah, exactly. Just private jets. And, you know, I think there is a
What the fuck was that?
You want to be some?
Oh, yeah, yeah. And so I think that part of it is for us. We've got certain things dialled in. Yeah, but we've got other things that we're still working on. So for instance, the the reason that we haven't had heaps of guests is because I mean, 99 is a fair few.
It is a few guests in our new space. Yeah, we I mean, 99. Sweet, special. Well, we are getting we could have had triple the amount if we could have two times this.
Yeah. Well, I guess, I guess part of it. Is this collective? I like the way it's, I think part of it too, is it's like we when we don't it like you've you've gotten to see us in the real Yeah, we're we're not where we want to be in regards to how we interact with guests. We want to be having it set up so that it's like this opening got fucking release. When a release forms. At some point, we need to be thinking about all these different touch points where it's like, it's unsexy. Like we're still working. Yeah, having a map being like, Hey, this is where you're going to what so I think it's all and so there is a I envision of video of Mr. 97 presenting. Hey, this is the car park. Yes. Call us. You will come in here come up. Yeah. And we run him up the stairs. And he's asked you to we want to see
like a ball. Yeah.
So there is and there is that. So I guess it's interesting with the brand stuff, because how do you package that a lot? Yeah, I think we all know, internally, what we need to do. But it's overwhelming to try and do everything at one time. Yeah. So part of it is just taking off little bits. And making that work. Yeah.
And letting that journey play out. You sure?
Yeah, it's working at what stuff you're going to harness and go. We don't want to lose that. And we want to dial it up. Yeah. And let's package it up. And let's make that let's formalise it. And make sure it goes nowhere. Versus let's just crack on. Let's keep it going and flowing and finding f8. And you know, that sort of stuff.
Yeah. And I guess it's what's what's optional at the beginning? And what do we need to like, what is that non negotiable? You are the one of the ambassadors for future women? What is it? What's it about?
So feature is a really powerful community
of, you know, set up essentially, by an incredible woman called Helena capes, and she's former Wintour, former executive editor of Australian women's weekly. But the platform was set up to help women Connect, learn and lead. And essentially, it's, it's a national platform. And it's got a whole lot of content, events set up to help keep women come together to share storeys, and to really share expertise and to help upscale each other. And to provide a space where, you know, they are safe and empowered, and not just just as women, when men can come along to these events. But to really start to close that gap around, you know, opportunities for women, creating opportunities for women to be more confident and freer, and freed up to to really start to step into their capability. And they know, we talked about credibility and confidence, you know, in order to succeed, which is very similar proposition to Corey CEO. The reason why Andrew and I've started to work with him is that Chris has been appointed an executive education partner of future women, which is really, really exciting. And as part of that, will be working with future women on you know, a robust programme, which is all about being building reputation, capital and learning how to communicate with confidence and authenticity. And that really steps right into, you know, what we've been talking around, you know, it's not just good enough to be highly capable at your role, that's only going to get you so far in terms of your technical expertise, but what's really going to keep you over the line are really going to make sure that you fly into that next, that next kind of chapter and level is going to be your ability to articulate the work or to really Sean lot on the great work that you're doing. And then great individual that you are in the great expert that you are, is he's going to be able to articulate and advocate for yourself and to stand up in front of a room and to be able to hold a room. You know, we've all been in those rooms, you know, that you have a speaker there and they just they magic, you know, they captivate a room and they have that, you know, special special charisma as opposed or a shtick where you're like, oh, wow, I can't, I probably can't even tell you exactly what they said. But they just helped me like I could tell that we're living and breathing what they were talking about. And it's all about saying, okay, we want more, we want more women at the top to be able to lead and inspire and engage audiences and to influence and to lay that next generation. We know capability is not the issue. It's actually about supporting more women, or equipping more women to be able to level up through stepping into their capability
is it is a different tool kit, than if you were to try to do the same thing. Do you think?
I'm not necessarily I just think all I just think but the science has done the work around women, as few different reasons. But genetically, we don't have the genetic makeup that men do in terms of the confidence. So we have less testosterone, we we generally will, will not bring our voice to the table as much as men. If they're, you know, sort of 60% sure they can get something done, they'll probably the sale. Yeah, I'll give it a go. Whereas women have to generally by 90 to 95% sure of themselves, they're going to get it done. Well, before that actually say I'll do it, there's a lot of
that 60% have been in the office, and I can tell you, yeah, we get a lot of shit wrong.
But it's that difference between going Actually, yeah, I'm just gonna crack on and get it done. Or give it a shot. Or Rene Brown has a fantastic team, which is all about embracing a shitty first draught. And it's about being being open to be vulnerable and getting it wrong and not, not trying to feel like you have to be perfect at every opportunity or things have to be finished or that you're 100% right for that next role, or that you're 100% right to take on that particular task or that project is just just to just to push yourself forward a little bit more, and to get yourself into situations that might be a little bit uncomfortable, but know that you are just as ready as the person or maybe the Well, maybe the girl next to you, that's just putting your hand forward.
So it's a it's a confidence thing it's trying
to a lot of it is Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it's I think it's really I think it's interesting, because it's definitely, even if you look at how many guests we've had on our show, and how many have been women, it's like, it's, I find that at the moment, they're like, we're we're doing a bunch of work to try and, you know, we shifted out Yeah, but in an authentic in an authentic way. That doesn't feel I guess the concern is that Yeah, we're and so that's part of it, too, which is like, when it's early talk about it, because we we don't want it to feel like that a drive to try and do all that it's a driving. Yeah.
Like, naturally, I'm having more conversations. Like I'm having like with my friends. Yeah, I think it's like, married to a woman. And there are things within relationships. I think it's just, you know, men and women. Yeah, you know, if you're hanging out with a heap of chicks, and you got a girlfriend, there's a chance you'll be like going What's going on? They're not saying anything's happening, but I think it's probably that's a thing in itself growing up where you gravitate towards the same six. Yeah, and I have done that. And that's where we say with this show, it's like most the people we have on at probably in conversation with them anyway, or something. And then you you're through, you know, through Andrea, who was someone that we were in contact with.
And then it's like, a confidence thing. I think it's a confidence thing as well. So the confidence thing leads to the don't go on to as many podcasts. And so then when we're seeking out people, and we're like, have they been on a podcast before? Like, all of those metrics? Yeah. Yeah. So then it's like, that's, I think, if we were to look at the numbers, the women that we've had on the show,
or the narrative that's gone before is not going to be a good Yeah, yeah. And
so I guess part of it is like the amount of women we've had on the show that it's their first time ever been on a podcast is really high. And so I guess part of it is, man, we've realised this is the first time. Congratulations. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's part of right, which is like, we can't use that as the if we use that as a metric. Yeah, we're unconsciously going to be cancelling out a hate.
Awesome barrier to entry. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think you're right. And, you know, one of the biggest insights that we always share with, you know, a lot of the work we do around curry co facilitation, is that con, confidence is absolutely context specific. So it's not to say that some people are confident, and they're the confident people and we put them in the corner. Yeah. And it is the fact that, you know, we all have times where, you know, we always ask people around the room in in workshops, and, like, when do you feel most confident? Let's do it. Mr. Nice. When you feel
when do you feel most confident? Miss 97? Yeah, probably just went on with my best nights. Yeah.
What about you thread I do when I know that I can control the outcome of a situation.
Yeah. So you've got all the information you like completely? Well briefed in yo comfortable. You're ready to handle situation? I think. So we've all got that within us. Right? You know, that the type of ability to feel confident. It's about Okay, well, how do we harness the conditions of being able to bring that to life more often? And how do we kind of practice that more?
So where are women more confident? Like, could they reference another part of their life and say, Hey, when you're in this scenario, try and bring that to
so a lot of them say, and again, it's not just women, like men obviously have confidence challenges as well. And not only in a confident but more often than not, people say, Okay, well, I feel great when I walk in through the door, when I get home, you know, boots on, and you know, I'm cooking dinner with my family. But it's it's a space where they feel safe, and that I feel like I can just be themselves. It's like, Well imagine if we can feel that free. Every time when we go to work. You know, it's it's quite, quite awful to think so many people go to work each day feeling like they have to be something that they're not all feeling incredibly great pulled by, you know, norms or conventions, or protocols or dress codes or gender types of roles, or you know, what they think is expected of them. But if I can move past that, and understand that even the guy holding a room or doing that keynote, or that woman during the keynote, who is able to hold the room and in looks like you know, is so incredibly eloquent. She's probably also she had her pants before she's coming on the stage. Yeah, like we all get that. It's about going, Okay, what's going to be my pre performance ritual? How do I get this under control? How do I do my breathing? How do I do the power pose? You know, what, what do I need to control the night before the week before whatever, you know, even well, seasoned News Radio is john adams who I work with a lot. She was 10 years at CHANNEL SEVEN, she she does keynotes, Andrea herself, etc. Everyone still gets nervous. You know, that doesn't go away. Yeah, it's like
confidence, right? You can be confident and have knows. Yeah.
But it's about you know, we all get butterflies about how to actually, you know, harness those butterflies to form in form formation. But that's not information. It's not the signal to not do it. I guess that's true, which is like, can easily say that the anxieties we have have the voices to say no, this is not right. Yes. It's like to stop doing it. That's it. I get Seth Godin talks about the dip and all that sort of thing. I think all like all of this comes down to reframing. Right. And so I guess that's part of retraining.
Yeah, like unlearning, you know, and shaking, like bullshit narrative as well. It's like, Well, someone gave me these feedback three years ago and said that, you know, I was x, you know, we get that a lot with the training that we're doing. It's like, Oh, I had these. Yeah, I had, you know, a manager told me three years ago that I, you know, it was really bad at the school that I had tendency to do this and hold on to that. That becomes a narrative. And it's okay, we'll change that.
Yeah, I think this. There's something into around as a community of people doing stuff, like being supportive of people having a crack as well. And I think a lot of people, like, the reason we do it more is because with, we think we're good at it. And that comes from that confidence thing. And so I think what I've tried to do is point out, you're really good at that. Yeah. And I like, especially 1%. Yeah, because the thing is, it's like, I don't ride a bike that much. I don't like I'm not inclined to climb on the roof. Tommy is Yeah. And part of it is, because I don't do that. Like, that's not that's not i'm not Yeah, that's not something I would do. Yeah. So I guess that's interesting, because it's like, reframing those sorts of things, where it's like, half of what Tommy can do, is based around his perception of his ability, like being out a lot of fire. Yeah, you can just I can, like I can, this is something I can do. Yeah. And I know that, TJ, you'd mentioned a lot where it's like being, I'm wired, I can watch to be able to do this or that. And I think that that is such a power. Like there is a powerful thing in that in a mindset where it's like, yeah, I can do this. Yeah, I'm like, I'm skilled at that. I'm good at math. And all of a sudden, you, you start to do things that you need to do. Yes to do it. Yeah. What are you good at? Do you think?
I think I'm, I'm an action based person. So when I say action, not like, you know, drawing class California. Get a little shit done. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm finished.
I'm very much just a deliverer. So you can help me with the Seth Godin book.
I've got one
which can save me but I can also not save me sometimes because I feel like I'm not
adding value or I feel very lost when I'm not doing a lot of stuff.
What am I good at? I I'm good at I think I'm generally good at building trust with people.
Which is good, even the line of work that I mean, yeah, and I think that that's why this next chapter of my Korea has come reasonably smoothly, because I love a good conversation and I love I love listening to storeys, and I'm inherently curious about other people. gronk
that's how you've described it gronk Ballina was excellent to get you on for the second nap and we'll we'll make the holly when you come there will be will have Miss nice he'll be dressed up as about
me so I gronk back walls gonna have like a gronk
Thanks so much. If people would just search brand amplified they'll be able to find you to daily talk show hyper daily talk show.com is the email address. If you have listened and watched we do appreciate a screengrab put it up on Instagram storeys. Till I tag you as well. What is brand amplified? The best Instagram account to tag
it is okay. We'll do that
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