The Pain Of Collaborating

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 272.

Tommy: Are you feeling that, um, anxiety around having eaten something and that smell?

Josh: I get that more with coffee. I do. Like, just that I might have coffee breath. Is that what you're talking about?

Tommy: Yeah, well, we just ate some beef that you'd prepared, Chef Josh, but a lot of flavor, so I'm feeling like Was there garlic in that? Only a—

Josh: no, I don't think there was. I made onion. That's what you're— you're tasting raw onion. That's because I sprinkled the raw onion on it. It does.

Tommy: Uh, people with bad breath, do they know?

Josh: I've never been close enough to someone with bad breath to tell them. Like, I've never— like, as in, uh, the relationship hasn't—

Tommy: you haven't cared enough about a person.

Josh: But there are some people that I know that it's just shocking.

Tommy: I remember a few names from primary school. I won't say them now, but yeah, distinctly they had bad breath. And it was always a thing where it's like, like people would give each other shit back in the day.

Josh: It's the brushing of the tongue, isn't it?

Tommy: Well, this is the thing.

Josh: I mean, is that— would you brush your tongue?

Tommy: No, I don't. I don't think I have bad breath. Would you tell me if I had bad breath?

Josh: No, you wouldn't? No, I don't think so. It would have to be in some form of argument. Yeah, just, "Your fucking breath stinks, just stop yelling." Where did that come from? Do you think? Oh, that's pretty—

Tommy: look, if you know you have bad breath and you can't do anything about it, or you can't afford— this is—

Josh: what do you mean can't afford?

Tommy: Well, if your teeth are rotten and you, you know, I've got rotten teeth, therefore that's why my breath smells, and I can't afford it I don't— this isn't about you, this is the people that— I mean, there's something in it when there's a—

Josh: I'm sure that you can still, even if you had little stubs as teeth, I'm sure you could keep them clean. It's all— I think a lot of the bacteria is on the tongue, man.

Tommy: Personal hygiene for some people, it's just not on their radar.

Josh: Since watching the— that video I was telling you about from that Stallman dude. Oh yeah, the guy that, um, that doesn't wash his clothes, he just washes himself. I've been doing like every I've— my, um, you know how I used to get pimples on the back of my head? Way less now because every— I am showering twice a day.

Tommy: Okay.

Josh: And so I reckon because I sweat heaps, I think the last one that I do at the end of the day helps a lot. It's a cold shower that I do.

Tommy: Yeah, that's good. I think, yeah, I mean, if you exercise or you're in a sweaty climate like we are right now, you should probably, if you were fortunate enough to be able to shower a couple of times a day, Do you think on the dental hygiene stuff, how would you keep, so we're looking after a dog at the moment, Archie, how would you keep his breath smelling fresh? Some dogs have, like if they get a, my brother, I was at his place on the weekend. He's like, yeah, I'm gonna get the, Jazzy's got something caught in her teeth and she gets sticks, like little pieces of stick caught in, which makes her breath just go rancid.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Stick's been in there for a couple of days and it's like, Yeah, I get— I think this is a—

Josh: if you're a wood— like wet wood, when Conspiracy Jimmy cracked it because we wet our wood and it smelt like shit.

Tommy: So the wet wood in the mouth is not good from the stick. Yeah, it starts smelling bad. But man, some dogs— I know the dog that you're talking about.

Josh: Well, we tried to fix—

Tommy: no fixing that.

Josh: I gave, um, the dog I'm looking after a bone last night from the lamb. Are you allowed to do that?

Tommy: Uh, No, I don't think you're meant to give dogs cooked bones because he ate the whole thing. As in the bone? Yeah, yeah, you definitely just proved my— proved my—

Josh: because I went out, I like, I'm like, here you go, Archie, and he was like eating it. And then here, yeah, ate the whole thing. Do you reckon he's going to be in pain tonight when he does a poo?

Tommy: Hopefully not. My mate's dad fed his Jack Russell everything. The thing was just a little—

Josh: just a little bullet, little rubbish bin.

Tommy: Eating wings.

Josh: Jack Russells, never, never my top pick in dogs.

Tommy: Oh, they're something great, some of them, but this one, Maxi boy, is— you know how an animal— and if you've got an animal at home, I'm sure you can relate—

Josh: personality.

Tommy: Yeah, they're just— my dog that I grew up with, his name was Robbie. He was a 101 Dalmatian. It was a spotted Dalmatian. Dalmatians are spotted.

Josh: 101 biddies, the amount of dogs, wasn't it?

Tommy: Oh yeah, the film 101 Dalmatians.

Josh: It was the— was the What was the premise of that story?

Tommy: I can't remember. 101 Dalmatians?

Josh: Was there Treville? Was it, uh, Cruella Treville? Trevella Cruella? You know what I'm talking about?

Tommy: I know what you mean. I— maybe we're blending a few stories.

Josh: No, keep going though.

Tommy: Cruella de Vil, maybe that was it. Um, so yeah, we had a dog and we got him when we were— well, I got him in my life when I was born.

Josh: Deville. Yeah, Cruella.

Tommy: Cruella de Vil.

Josh: Fictional character. Oh yeah, um, rich wealthy woman. Yeah, is a fictional character created by English author Dodie Smith as the main antagonist of her 1956 novel The Hundred and One Dalmatians.

Tommy: And I loved it that we had a— that we had one. So it was a real novel. But Robbie, he's just— his personality, he was so so lovely, and we were best mates. He died when I was 16 or 16, 17, and he went out fighting. We had him put down, and the vet came over to euthanize him. Euthanize. Sticks the, sticks the thing in his leg, and I'm there just so devoted, and he just turns his head, nearly chews this guy's arm off because he's fucking dying. Yeah, but he went out fighting.

Josh: Well, we've got Kim Lamb on the show tomorrow.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: Who knows heaps about killing animals because she's a vet, veterinarian. Yeah. So that'll be— we can ask her because I did say the, like, a while ago about the platypus, how you kill a platypus.

Tommy: Well, you were saying about a book that, that she's working on. Yeah, she's working on coffee table book that explores how animals, how you need to kill them, but like in a beautiful illustration type of— yeah, it's a great idea. I'll read it, but you butchered one of her Yeah, we'll get her to clear it up on the show tomorrow.

Josh: That's tomorrow. Today we're actually doing it late. It's currently 3:15. I think I've got a meeting at 4:30.

Tommy: Do you? That's fine, we'll get it done.

Josh: The Mr. 97 isn't here today. He's been filming all of them. We sent him home.

Tommy: Yeah, it's hot. It's another 34-degree day, so he's had a hot day.

Josh: Yeah, well, he came in at, uh, what, 9 o'clock, ready to do the show. Yeah, you and I had a blowout. Yeah, blow up, blow up.

Tommy: Yeah, sent him home.

Josh: And he was, he was the, uh, the— he wasn't involved in the blowup.

Tommy: No, he was a casualty.

Josh: He was 100% a casualty.

Tommy: Well, where did the blowup stem from? And I— and feedback from Jimmy, Conspiracy Jimmy, was that he doesn't like us talking about our problems.

Josh: Oh, on the show?

Tommy: On the show.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: But I think the problem that we had—

Josh: he walked past before and said, stop fighting!

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, like this.

Josh: Like I said, is that from childhood, that trigger a little bit like that. So what he doesn't like— yeah, he was saying he was tuning out when we talk about our problems.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think this has— this is very much in tune with creators, people who are in any creative endeavor, or even business, or I guess life. We're talking about how to collaborate right now. We're having a conversation. You could say this is a collaboration. We haven't really talked about what we're going to be talking about today.

Josh: Rules are—

Tommy: yeah, what the rules are. We've just— it's very very loose. We don't edit it, so we've taken a lot of the barriers away from the collaboration.

Josh: Yeah, but we've started to do, uh, we're going to be doing original short-form documentaries.

Tommy: Yeah, and in like, in theory, it's like get together with your mate and make a video together, but I kind of did this sort of— I wrote out— looks a bit—

Josh: this was post-argument, by the way.

Tommy: It's me writing out trying to see where we aren't on the same page, or just that we've just— we are two different people with two different views of approaching things and situations in the world. And so I wrote as a, as a question, what needs to be decided on to collaborate? And so this is a whole bunch of thoughts and areas to think of before you collaborate, because people could be watching going, yeah, you guys already do collaborate, but it's in a certain arena.

Josh: And so then when you go outside that, it completely changes. So when it comes to the video I was like, hey, I wanna, I think I want, I want us to do a video today. I was thinking about this, and then you're like, uh, I don't know.

Tommy: Yeah, I was, I was, and what we've worked out was my I don't know was, do you, and I wrote some questions here, um, does everything have to be mutual? Which is a key thing when you're collaborating. Do you both need to mutually agree upon an idea? Well, you need to have a leader, don't you? Well, this is the thing. I think where we went wrong is it's a different— like, if we outline the roles within a business or within some kind of creative endeavor, it makes sense now after post-blowup to have a leader even when you are in a partnership. Yeah, in different areas.

Josh: It needs to change depending on— I don't want to be leading all the time.

Tommy: No.

Josh: And the other thing too is I don't want to it's the pushback. Like, I— the thing that I struggle with is like, you be an employee, you get told no a bunch of times, and then you go out and you go, fuck it, I'm going to work for myself. And then you do that, and then a business partnership is sort of like having two people with equal say.

Tommy: Yeah. And so maybe that's where it's like you can go wrong if you both think you need equal say for the video.

Josh: Yeah. Like, I, I feel like part of it too is what reaction could I have to this right now? So like, I think if you come up with an idea, I need to try and like, knowing the fact that we have enough negativity in our own minds about our ideas.

Tommy: Lizard brain.

Josh: Yeah, that we probably need to, we don't need another fucking negative, a reason why it's not going to work.

Tommy: The dudes from, what's the book I'm reading? Work Doesn't Have to Be Crazy.

Josh: Yeah. 37signals, uh, that's what they're all, uh, Basecamp.

Tommy: Basecamp. So they used to be called these guys from Basecamp have a rule where someone spends time thinking about an idea and they have them present the idea. No one's actually allowed to say anything about the idea. They can take notes and they reconvene a day later, a week later to then basically outline what they were thinking about it because now you've thought about what it is.

Josh: How would you feel about going through that process of you doing an idea? Would you— do you think there would be an anxiety of seeing me writing down— like, I just can imagine me being a smug fuck or maybe not even notes, like, take that off the table because I get that someone would be like, hmm, being assessed.

Tommy: I see what you're doing there. But maybe it's like pitching your idea to sort of— because you need to—

Josh: I hate fucking pitching. This is my problem. I don't want to have to pitch. I just want to fucking make the thing.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think that's where collaborating with somebody else or within a team, within a business, there has to be some level of— can you collaborate? Hey, I've thought about this more than you. Here it is. Here's the painting, and now let's go and do it. Or the alternative is, no, I'm literally just going to run my own show here and you're along for the ride.

Josh: Which do you think, like a director in a film, what sort of collaboration are they doing?

Tommy: No, I think they're taking charge. They're telling people what to do. They're telling the cinematographer, the DOP, well, they're saying, I need the shot to look like this, you need to make it exactly how I want it to look. And they've got, whether it be they've written the script, so they've— some directors don't write the script, some directors do, they're writer-directors. So if they're a writer-director, they've got— they've taken it from very early days to you know, actually making this thing a reality.

Josh: So how do you take the collaboration— like, because that's all fine, there's going to be issues with collaboration, but how do we, how do we get to a point where— like, we've probably had half a dozen times in the last like 6 months or whatever where it's like knocked out an entire— an argument in the morning has knocked out an entire day. How do you stop that from happening, do you think?

Tommy: Well, I think these— like, I hadn't thought about collaboration this deep ever, and I hadn't had to consider— I've made 100 videos over time, and I hadn't had to consider someone else or what they thought about what I'm making, because it's sort of the selfish me is just like, I don't want to fucking have to—

Josh: I just want to make the thing. Yeah, because the thing is, we didn't make— like, we've walked away today without making anything.

Tommy: And Mason, I hope he made it home safe.

Josh: Yeah, Mr. 97, he had a dental appointment at 2.

Tommy: He did, and it's not because he has bad breath and we're trying to get sorted for him.

Josh: No, no, no, he's got great teeth.

Tommy: No, I think, but is there some level of, not sacrifice, what did I write here? Compromise when collaborating. So we're in a business, we're both wanting to do X, Y, and Z. I might not want to actually do Y and you want to do it and why.

Josh: So how do you work out the boundaries?

Tommy: Well, I think if the compromise— you're a strong person in terms of what you want to do and not doing much outside of what you want to do, and so am I.

Josh: And so because I— but I think that it's like, oh, I'll do anything as long as you can convince me. But maybe I don't, I don't do shit I don't want to do.

Tommy: And so the, the thought is then how do you collaborate on mine? If collaboration— if what we've determined collaboration is someone leads, how do you then support somebody in a collaborative moment?

Josh: Well, it depends if you need me to.

Tommy: It's, I guess, why does it come with a caveat?

Josh: Well, no, I think it just, it's, uh, what, what is the role of the other person? So you've got the leader, then what is the role of the other person? I don't think it's necessarily to put on more ideas and say, oh, we could, or we could do this.

Tommy: Yeah, but maybe, maybe so Maybe those guys, the Basecamp idea is in a business where we all need to be on this or there's a big change that needs to happen. We're talking like small video, you know, not being the exact, it's very hard, like I wonder some of the bigger projects, I don't know enough about people who have collaborated. So this is why we're sort of in uncharted water for both of us because we haven't done a great deal of collaboration. One of us has been leading it.

Josh: So if I was to lead on that project and said, hey, I want to do this video on this thing.

Tommy: Yeah, it changes an approach because if I thought that I'm coming to it with, great, we're creating something equally, but maybe I had it completely wrong about what a collaboration is.

Josh: But does that— because you can collaborate with not being equal. You could collaborate and still— I worry that the alternative is, oh, you're leading, so I'll just fucking do whatever you say.

Tommy: No, I don't act like that ever though.

Josh: No, but that just naturally happen. So how do you have collaboration where there's still that level of honesty?

Tommy: Yeah, I think it's the conversation and actually working out the difference and not sort of— if you maybe you're collaborating, you're clashing because there's someone who's strong with their idea and you're like, I'm just fucking doing it because he says like it's actually, it's easier for me to cope with life by saying yes. And so I think if it's— I would need to come into it like Great, you've got this concept. I know you, you've got a, you, I know you've got a great mind, you can nail any, any idea you put your mind to. So I'm your set of hands. How do I make this the best version for you? Do I hold the camera now? Do you want me to fucking set that up? Um, your anxiety here could be around presenting this piece to camera where you've got to focus on the script. And I'm just, I've got you, I've got you, I've got the fucking, I know the camera settings are all good. And so then that's where I'm like I'm actually a pair of hands.

Josh: And it's changing status 100% because if you think about it, there's— if you're from traditional media, I guess you're on-camera talent and you do the thing versus this is— yeah, you're sort of dropping in different roles that requires you to just shutting, shutting up. I'm not good at shutting up. Like, even when I was interning when I was young, I was like, I'll tell—

Tommy: what was that?

Josh: Who'd you tell?

Tommy: I know you were counselling an old dude about how— yeah, like, maybe this job's not Not for you.

Josh: Yeah, I was the intern. I was saying that. No, but I also remember I was working on a short film, and it turns out that the reason they got me on— it was a guy who was on, um, I think it was an Australian show called Cop Shop back in the day, and he was an actor, uh, turned director. So he was an actor on that show, yeah, and he was directing this short film. And I found a call out somewhere about, oh, we need a student to help us on this film. And it turns out the reason they did it was because they wanted, um, uh, student permits, access to student permits for locations. So they got me involved so they could, so they could do that. The thing was they gave me like a sort of a decent title, like assistant director. And so an assistant director, for people who don't know, within film and TV, it's like the organiser or whatever. They'll be— they're not actually directing the scene, they're getting they might be sorting out location stuff or getting talent organized, but I just took it upon myself to provide feedback on some of the great stuff. Yeah, maybe you could do like just assisting in providing. I just remember afterwards being like, I maybe, um, read it wrong.

Tommy: So you've been a self-proclaimed bad collaborator. That's what you've said to me.

Josh: It's just fucking annoying, right? Because I tell you that So then anytime there's an argument, you're like, well, you're just not good at collaborating.

Tommy: No, no, I've said you said that. I make sure that I say that. But what I'm actually thinking is maybe I'm not. And, and there is like personality traits where you, uh, you can follow instructions. I was talking over the weekend with somebody about— it was about being an employee and your personality traits. And it's like, do you follow instructions? Do you work well with the team? It's like this questionnaire that you can answer that tells you this. But I don't know, I think what we're talking about is two people that are of the similar type where it's like, I've made my own stuff and done it my way. And so it's hard to switch.

Josh: You don't get super nasty, maybe. I think I get like, I have like an all-in approach to these things.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think, and then there's, well, I guess the, the worry about going that approach—

Josh: I call you a D-grade player.

Tommy: I worry about that approach is that you will take anything really to heart if— because it's challenging you as this whole person. So if I ever say— if I challenge an idea of yours, which sometimes maybe they need to be, you challenge my ideas, but part of it is like I'm saying it to provoke something. Yeah, it's like I'm saying it to provoke. It's like, don't ask the question you potentially— yeah, those guys from Basecamp also say like bosses that come in and ask about a project if you're not ready to hear the answer, which is it's not going to be done, when? Another 2 weeks. Maybe hold off asking the question. And so if you're not up for the answers of the question, it's like maybe there's a pre-thought of don't ask the fuck.

Josh: So how much is honesty good though? Like, is it—

Tommy: it's a hard—

Josh: because the thing is like sometimes I'm feeling these things and it's like sometimes you think real negative stuff about people that we're working with, that we're just fucking over.

Tommy: There's, um, well, do you need to talk about your compromise is what I wrote, which is a level of honesty. Because maybe you hold back what you're actually compromising on because it's not beneficial for me to tell you I'm not actually that into that part of it or how you do it. Yeah, I know you are, so I'm actually compromising the output based on my thinking. But I don't think— I think, yeah, this is where I think it literally is. If you're collaborating with somebody on a video, someone lead the project.

Josh: And so that, like, how do you enter into that? Because otherwise it would just be one person constantly puts their hand up.

Tommy: Oh no, I think you— I think for, like, there's a schedule. I mean, we're in a different boat where we've got a business together and we've got time across a week. It doesn't make sense for one person just to be making videos. It's like I'm actually your hand helper for the day and you're my hand helper for the next day.

Josh: Do you find— I get a lot of energy from the idea of throwing everything in, as in just done. Yeah, because I'm like, okay, it's, it's an opportunity to, to rebuild.

Tommy: I'm like, okay, but I also—

Josh: am I working now?

Tommy: I usually worry that the hard, the hard bit is the good bit. The—

Josh: what does that mean?

Tommy: The, the relationship I've got with my wife that I've built over 5— we've nearly been together 5 years. We've been through a lot, up and down, and I— but I have never thought about, I want to end this.

Josh: So how do you know though? Like, when is someone in a relationship where they're like, actually, oh fuck, I don't know.

Tommy: This is the hard thing.

Josh: I—

Tommy: for me, I feel it. I know it deep down. There's a, there's a thought there that I just can't shake, but I've managed to work out whether that's just stimulated by my annoyance for the fact that she doesn't pick her underwear up. That's actually me. That was her.

Josh: I assumed.

Tommy: And so, so, but when is it?

Josh: When do we, like, if we're seeking a happy life, if we want a happy life, if you're annoying the shit out of me 4 days a week for, uh, 3 weeks, which is maybe 2 days or 1 day, like, yeah, 1 hour of, uh, every second day, yeah, there's something annoying happens. How many times do we do that before— it's the same with you, like, I annoy the fuck out of you all the time, but you seem to be like, oh, that's just a part of doing business.

Tommy: Well, I see it as a part of the big picture, because if the big picture is a commitment to it, yeah, we've been— we've had this, had this podcast for only a year. Yeah, we've had the business for like operating for only 6 months. And like, it's sticking at shit. Like, there could be a friction point for 2 years with some businesses. I just reckon that is reality.

Josh: Is there, you know, the whole thing of, uh, you know, the opposite could also be true? Yeah, like part of it is— so I can go from 2 levels of thinking. This is the hard bit now, it's going to get easier. Yeah, right. It's like we're building stuff so it gets easier. The other option is we're in the honeymoon phase and we're already fucking having fights on our honeymoon.

Tommy: That's a reality for a lot of people out there.

Josh: Did you have a fight on your honeymoon?

Tommy: I think it's travelling and yeah, yeah, I definitely had to travel, but I've got the best relationship with Amy. Yeah, and but we still fight. Yeah, and so that's what I'm trying to understand.

Josh: It's like this is, this is the health, the fights and stuff we have is because we're honest but it's also the, uh, the pain.

Tommy: I think it's like, I don't know, I think it's in your— I think we construct these scenarios, and that's why I, I tend to not just walk away from things straight away, because I know I could construct a scenario if I start thinking about what I could do as a solo creator. But it's like not I think you don't think you don't ever do that because I don't think it's productive. I actually don't think it's productive, and I'm also not, not listening to myself.

Josh: But don't think it's potentially— I don't want to ever feel like I'm trapped.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So I like to know that even if everything's fucking amazing— what was that noise? Did you hear that? Was that just a chair or something?

Tommy: I might have just moved. Um, a bit hot.

Josh: The— yeah, like, I feel it's freeing to know that anytime I can quit this or quit that or do that, and then I enter in like I have to exit out. I'm like almost— I'm resigning from this, I'm finishing up, I'm done. And then I'm like, okay, what happens if I reframe this and I do this again and I add a bit in and I do this and I do that?

Tommy: Yeah, what happens with the hard work you put in? Like, I think it's life. If you've got a bad relationship with your father, it's going to require a fuckload of work to get it to a good place. But does that mean throw the towel in because the hard work's there?

Josh: Does it mean that you need a good relationship with your dad?

Tommy: Or maybe if you think you need one. And so this is the thing where creative jobs, whether you're a freelancer like graphic designer, video person, the business model is unknown. Like, it's a weird business model. It's not— we're in this confusing time where it's not take this physical product. For a lot of people nowadays, it's not as old school.

Josh: We make money from our client stuff doing video production for clients. The end of the day, if we can be doing original stuff that doesn't require that client interaction, that'd be awesome. But it feels like we're potentially 2 to 3 years of doing that.

Tommy: And so here's the, here's the reality of that struggle. 2 to 3, 2 to 3 years down the track, and you start thinking about what that actually is now when the reality is different. So which world do you live in, the reality of now or the reality of what it will be like if you make it there.

Josh: Well, what scares me is this is our reaction to a video. This is how much like we blow up over a video when a few hundred people might see the video.

Tommy: I don't think what happens—

Josh: yeah, but no, but won't it? If, if we're like 100,000 people are going to see this, all of a sudden that's going to be completely heightened.

Tommy: When we spoke to Matt D'Avella in Sydney when we were up there and it was like, what's changed? You've, since we last saw you, nearly like 700,000 subscribers. He said not much. Yeah, so this is where we, we blur the thinking of—

Josh: but those things get elevated, right?

Tommy: Nothing will be different.

Josh: It's like finance though. If you become rich, if you're an asshole, you just become a bigger asshole.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think I get what you're saying.

Josh: So if I'm neurotic over a small audience of, you know, 20,000 people listening—

Tommy: You said to me before, you make every piece of video like it's going to be the best thing. It's going to be— it has to be better than every other piece that you've made.

Josh: Well, I mean, it's, it's—

Tommy: that's a hard thing to do.

Josh: The thing is, I think that it's, it's aiming for progression. In this video that I've made, how have I progressed? And so if when we're doing especially work for clients, sometimes we don't have all the context to be able to do that. And so the pushback that I have is when it's like, I need more info and to be able to make this the best thing possible. Or if you're looking at an example and say, I love this example that you've done, Josh, and then they're like, okay, I want you to do this video, but we— this is our process. It's like, well, no, the reason why it was good is because I got to do X, Y, and Z.

Tommy: There's— I wrote here structure, flexibility, and balance. How do you have structure but also flexibility? It's fucking hard. And some of these pain points in the creative space could be fixed by structure, but then they also limit— it's a limitation to the project.

Josh: How do we not add water or like throw water onto a creative fire that we have as individuals? Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, that was the solution for those Basecamp guys. They thought by— they don't want people criticising or saying, pointing out any flaw until they've gone out, gone away and thought about it as a full concept.

Josh: I remember doing some corporate training like that, was like the Four Hat Thinking, different fucking—

Tommy: Hayden Wilson, shout out to Hayden. He's got that dude who wrote that book. Oh really? That's Four Thinking Hats. He's this old codger who's fucking genius.

Josh: Yeah, the— but I also think that it could be a pain in the ass doing that shit.

Tommy: Like, I can see that that's a pain in the ass if you just want to get going and you don't want to hear from anyone.

Josh: But not even that, but just like the— we've worked with each other long enough that we understand the trigger points, and so there's a little bit of gritting of the teeth from both ends when you're saying that.

Tommy: But I don't know, I think— I don't think you've worked with somebody long enough until you've worked on this specific way of doing it. Like we were making our own videos and, you know, you were, oh, have you made yours yet? Have I made mine? It's like, that is a way where I'm making my own, you're making your own, there's no— you'd be in some of my videos but you wouldn't know what's going on and you wouldn't need to ask because the investment's not there. I think that's when it's like, hey, let's come together and let's, let's start talking about ideas. What are we going on?

Josh: And you would have, uh, you're just getting text messages. BMAC. The thing is, you wouldn't see that if you look at the— as individuals when we're making stuff, you would have probably never said, ah nah, it's a shit idea, don't do that.

Tommy: No.

Josh: And so that's probably—

Tommy: I did give you feedback which you re-recorded the whole video.

Josh: Oh, that's right, it was low energy.

Tommy: You came back and smashed it for the digital minimalism. It's now one of your biggest videos. Not saying that I had anything to do with that, but potentially.

Josh: It's a daily talk show, everyone. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com.

Tommy: What do you reckon Yeah, collaborating with people. If— has it been a pain point for you? Even if you haven't verbally told the other person that it's been a pain point, but maybe you've felt the friction. Yeah, because I think that's all this is— friction in a collaborative process.

Josh: You have it in relationship. I'm sure there's moments where Bree's like, it'd be so much fucking easier if I just got to cook for myself or worry about myself and I have to worry about—

Tommy: so she dumps you.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, look, it's purely just about the meal prep.

Josh: Yeah, it's way easier. You overcomplicated it. Working out Uber Eats on my own. But, uh, hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. Did we get any email? Have we got anything that we want to talk about? Not really, I don't think. Do you know what I wanted to mention before, uh, we go? Did you hear about this FaceTime?

Tommy: No, I heard you banging on about—

Josh: what is it? So the FaceTime, uh, bug is, uh, you can face it. So this happened yesterday or day before. Where you would FaceTime someone, and then while you're FaceTiming them, you could add yourself to the FaceTime, right? So imagine Josh Janson's calling Tommy Jackett.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: And then I add myself, I add Josh Janson in contacts to the call. Okay. And what it would do was it would turn on your microphone on your FaceTime so I could hear everything.

Tommy: You can hear yourself?

Josh: No, no, no. I could hear— you hadn't answered the call. It's ringing. While it's ringing, I can hear your audio.

Tommy: Oh, that's fucking sick. Yeah, so you get there, oh, it's fucking Josh.

Josh: Yeah, you would get that. But imagine if—

Tommy: hey mate, how are you?

Josh: Say if someone had it on silent, they didn't even know that. And so I could just keep doing FaceTime calls. But, um, Apple have, uh, turned off group FaceTime. Really?

Tommy: Until that was the thing, it was like 20 or 50 people on a FaceTime.

Josh: 38, I think.

Tommy: How did they come up with that number?

Josh: Can we just see if that's right? Hang on.

Tommy: Yeah, it was a big number. I remember Trev talking to us about that. Fuck, I wonder if that's only around for a day.

Josh: 32 participants.

Tommy: Did anyone have a bad—

Josh: Yeah, I wonder what the— bad interaction.

Tommy: Or especially work, people would be like, I can't be fucked being in this meeting. Hey boss.

Josh: I mean, you'd have to— your boss would have to be pretty psychopathic to do that to them. Because it's requiring them to do that thing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Anyway, we continue the, the streak. We haven't missed a show. It's been 272.

Tommy: 272. He only says that because he was like, maybe we just missed today. No fucking chance. We're not missing an episode. We need to break the glass, so if we just want to break, yeah, we definitely need to.

Josh: It is annoying. We have to, but doing it daily requires a level of emotional responsibility to be able to—

Tommy: we couldn't do it straight afterwards because it's one of Amy's most, uh, she finds it the most annoying but also commends me for it, which is having a blow up but then also be able to just fucking pull it right down. But not even like, I don't think I have— I'm not like a mental case where I'm like, turn it off, I'm going to bring it all up later. I literally can just, okay, let's fucking— let's just, let's just think about that later. I literally can do that.

Josh: So you could be like swearing at each other in the car?

Tommy: Yeah, I—

Josh: yeah, tonight I think, hey everyone!

Tommy: Well, not to that extent, but definitely just like if I was at 110 emotionally, yeah, I could pull it right down to 40.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: And get on with it because I—

Josh: but then are you going to bring it up back? Is the risk that if you've got all this unpercolated— no, I think you're going to bring up Fuck. Are you feeling good now?

Tommy: Yeah, I think it is good.

Josh: I think— but yeah, anything else we need to talk about? Or—

Tommy: ah, no. I remember having blow-ups with my co-hosts in Shepparton on air ever, or no?

Josh: Um, ever get real upset?

Tommy: Sort of moves to on air, but weird because you're not friends really, you know, like you've just met each other really. So you're in this sort of working relationship where you've been at each other off air or silent and then come back, turn the mics on, and it's like, you're paid to be there to fucking put on a show.

Josh: What is the— so you know my bit of not being very good at collaborating, all that sort of shit. What is your— what was— what's been the common feedback that you've received over the years about what you need to improve on?

Tommy: Um, within what?

Josh: Creatively? Just like, say, within that, like, what were the fights normally about?

Tommy: With who?

Josh: On the radio?

Tommy: Oh God, I can't remember, honestly. Um, yeah, honestly, I cannot remember.

Josh: That was a good end to the show.

Tommy: Yeah, when you put him on the spot here.

Josh: Well, like, was it, was it, uh, no, but you're not— you're talking over me.

Tommy: Um, nah, I see. Yeah, I don't know. It wasn't that. I can't remember.

Josh: Okay, it's a daily talk show.

Tommy: If you're watching and you were my old co-host, let me know. Yeah, well, what I said to you was I don't know if I'm actually the greatest of collaborators too, because I hadn't made the distinction that there is one sort of leader and not. And so maybe I didn't put my foot down enough— not put my foot down, speak up. Very early days of InRadio, I definitely didn't because I was scrambling trying to understand what the fuck I'm doing. And so there was a point where I started putting my foot down in reference to like, I want to say in this shit, and there was— it caused friction.

Josh: Have you ever identified triggers where you go, I feel like Bree and I are more likely to fight if she's driving and I'm in the passenger seat? I think I get bored.

Tommy: Food for me, for sure. Not eating. I think that's a lot of relationships.

Josh: But, um, no, I can sort of relate to that, but I sort of go towards it. I actually enjoy the expression. I enjoy that.

Tommy: You're a sicko.

Josh: But do you get it?

Tommy: Like, I know you're full. I've like literally gone out, it's only until I've eaten to have the realization. It's like, whoa, I just get on a roll and then I'm in, I'm down, I'm into this conversation, I can't stop talking. Yeah, I fucking can't.

Josh: It'd be good, like, I feel like I got to a point in my life where I may have gotten better with all this stuff, but I think the collaboration stuff is— it challenged— it's hard. I A year ago I used to think I was fucking so zen. Yeah, I have the, uh, well, there's a fucking, uh, the— what is that book called? The one of like non-violent communication.

Tommy: I think there's so much stuff in the— in your head and in my head when we're approaching something, because you've only got your world and your life experience and previous experience to deal with and make decisions based on all of that information. And that's where if two people have opposing views on collaborating, it's going to be friction. And so then it's like meeting in the middle, you know.

Josh: I agree. The, uh, we record every podcast as a video now. It's available on our YouTube channel, youtube.com/thedailytalkshow. And if you're actually just watching this on YouTube and you didn't know this was a podcast, if you just go to thedailytalkshow.com or just Google The Daily Talk Show you can actually subscribe to us through any of the podcast apps and leave a review.

Tommy: Oh yeah, actually I read a really nice one. I haven't, I haven't got it up, but it was a nice one recently.

Josh: Yeah, we do, we get some nice—

Tommy: please, please, more nice ones.

Josh: Yeah, we need it right now.

Tommy: Or a bad one, but at least just do the 5 stars.

Josh: Thank you. The Dallas Hawk Show, have a good one guys.