Tommy's Regrettable Tweets

Tommy: Wait a minute. Frostface. The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jack.

Josh: It's The Daily Talker Show, episode 228. How are we? That was a bit clunky, wasn't it?

Tommy: Do you want to start again?

Josh: No, that's okay. It's, um, it's, it's 3:30 PM here in, in Melbourne.

Tommy: Yeah, I literally just thought, uh, I've still got a few more days of the week left. Nope, Thursday.

Josh: Yeah, your energy is a little bit low, but that's okay.

Tommy: Yeah, feeling, um, not flat but just tired. Yeah, I think it just catches up with you. Do you think that's a real thing, like your week catches up with you? I mean, is that just cognitive load across multiple days in a row?

Josh: I do wonder, like, if I just sleep well for one night, does that— especially like the bags under my eyes. Look at the bags.

Tommy: Yeah, and I tell you to stop winking at me, but you're actually just going to twitch in one eye.

Josh: I think it's because I'm tired. Yeah, people might be tired if they're in San Jose, California. Oh yeah, it's 8:30 PM.

Tommy: There right now.

Josh: Yeah, I thought it'd be interesting because although we're, we're in Melbourne, Collingwood, where we, where we live, just outside of, um, uh, the CBD, Central Business District.

Tommy: On the fringe. Yeah, on the fringe, baby.

Josh: I thought, um, there's people listening all around the place, so that gives you an idea. It's 3:30 PM on Thursday, but it is 8:30 PM in California. Right now, right now, the day before.

Tommy: Yeah, the day before, but we're in the same universe, so it's, it's right now. Time zones are fucking weird. Uh, but also, we won't tell the time there, but shout out to Malaysia. Had an email come through.

Josh: Adrian, yo yo Malaysia!

Tommy: That just reminded me, that triggered the, the memory of your video where you're like Yo yo, 2012, can I have my wife beater back?

Josh: What did I say that in? What was that in?

Tommy: Oh, in that digital minimalism.

Josh: Oh, that's right. Yeah, no, yeah, it was, I said 2007, we want your bookmarks back or something. It was about bookmarks.

Tommy: Yeah, but you used the yo yo yo in the very same tone.

Josh: Okay, sorry about that. But we got an email.

Tommy: Yeah, Adrian, he obviously watched Matt D'Avella's podcast, obviously because he told us. So he did watch it where we were on yesterday and He's fascinated by the, the Josh Quit Social Media, and it seems so are a bunch of other people. It, it seems that you've, by removing social media, freed up an hour of your time, but also spent an hour of that time talking to other people about this, which is interesting. I said to you today, it's almost like, um, you're getting the result out of what, what you could out of social media by going the opposite direction. It's a Fascinating thing.

Josh: It's had cut-through. Yeah. Similar to CrossFit, to veganism, to minimalism. I'm enjoying talking about it.

Tommy: Yeah. Do you see how you could fall into a trap of like the niche or niche, whichever country you're in? It's, you could be the guy, this could be you.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You're done, mate.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, but I don't think I could talk about this forever. I feel like I'm gonna get over it. Yeah. But what's, What's Adrian asking?

Tommy: Yeah, Adrian, he had a couple of questions, um, which— Adrian, if you're listening now, yesterday's episode, Kyle, who also sent some, you know, questions through on this similar topic, I think if you listen to that one also, that will, uh, probably deliver on, on some of the things you might be thinking. He said, um, how do you handle FOMO, fear of missing out, amongst your friends and family that are still on it? Your response to me was very funny this morning when I told you that question.

Josh: No, well, I think it's, it's based on the idea that I'm— that I, I feel like I'll be missing out. Yeah, basically that idea. Like, I— the way I said it didn't paint me in a very nice picture.

Tommy: No, but I mean, if friends and family on social media— if you— if, if they're really your friends and family They're probably like, you've got some cousins and stuff that are on social media. I've asked you, they're your cousin. You're like, I haven't seen them in ages. So they're friends and family. Are you needing to know what they're up to? If you see them at a family gathering, of course you'll be like, oh, yo, what's up?

Josh: Yeah, well, I mean, mum is one of 11 kids, so there are cases where it's like cousins of cousins of sisters of the— I lose track on the connection. But no, I think that it's a FOMO, no. Because the dream for me is probably being a bit hermit. I enjoy not sort of having to speak. Do I sound like an asshole when I'm saying that or not?

Tommy: Nah, not at all. Not at all. When you know you, it's like, I think the dude— so if we paint a stereotype of some guy who loves going to the gym, he—

Josh: Are you describing me?

Tommy: No, definitely. This would be the opposite by the end of— loves going to the beach.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Loves getting his top off. Loves rubbing oil on himself and loves photos with the boys at music festivals. He's the guy that will get FOMO. And you know that—

Josh: I'm not that guy.

Tommy: You're not that guy. He'll get FOMO of social situations, which I think Adrian, Josh won't be having FOMO of social situations.

Josh: Well, there's JOMO, which I heard a while ago, which I can really relate to, which is the joy of missing out.

Tommy: Where's the joy come from?

Josh: The joy comes on like being cool, you know, the feeling you get when someone cancels plans and you didn't want to potentially go.

Tommy: Is that—

Josh: Well, I guess that's just my default thinking, just in any regard really, even if I like the person a lot. Yeah. If they cancel, 9 times out of 10, I'll be like, I've just freed up an hour.

Tommy: Yeah, and it's one that you haven't got anything you've got nothing to do in that hour because you had previously dedicated to someone else. And then it's almost like, it's the closest to the feeling like, the feeling I get when I work on a weekend. No one else is working, I'm getting ahead, this is like your special time. The second question though he asked was, as a media company, how do you still get work? I'm a freelancer in photography and videography, what do you think I should do? To get work other than through social media.

Josh: Yeah, I reckon I did a blog post at joshjansen.com, uh, about— I'm surprised you didn't give me any pushback throwing that out there.

Tommy: No, um, you should have seen his face though. It was like he's waiting to be punched in the nose.

Josh: I was ready for it. Um, no, I wrote a blog post about conflicting advice. I reckon that there's— it's like the, the advice to just say no more off, off often. If it's, if it's, uh, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no, which is Derek Sivers who created CD Baby. That's, that's sort of his philosophy. But I reckon there is a time in life where you actually just have to say yes to everything. You have to be on every social media platform, you have to be doing lots of stuff. But I feel like I started freelancing when I was 14, I'm now 28, So I feel like I'm at an age where I've sort of developed enough of a network where now if I just keep doing the work and keep connecting up in the real world, I don't really need social media.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely worth it for a point. And if you don't have a network, you can network online. That's the social network. That is, that's the where it started, right?

Josh: What would happen if you, I guess, like the opposite of the social media thing, What about rather than doing an Instagram post, if you reached out to 3 people via email every day?

Tommy: It would have way more cut-through. Yeah, I think so. That's what, 15 people by the end of the week? There's more worth in that, more connection if that's what you're trying to do, connect with people.

Josh: I'm trying to build a case as to why maybe you shouldn't be on social media anymore.

Tommy: Yeah, I've felt that. I saw you fucking sniffing around on my— old YouTube videos and my Twitter account, which I rarely use other than, you know, automate, automatically share the Daily Talk Show podcast.

Josh: Yeah, appreciate it. But, um, I went back all the way to— when was it? 2014, which isn't that long ago, only 4 years ago. Don't bring up on your—

Tommy: okay, so 2014.

Josh: Yeah, where were you in your life? What was going on?

Tommy: 24, 2012, 24, that was when I was just met Amy. Okay, 2013, 2014. Yeah, so it would have been in Sydney. Okay, either off the back of Shepparton going to Sydney.

Josh: Well, you were doing a lot of, um, in 2015 specifically, a lot of photos of random people that you didn't know on Twitter. So there's one where it's, uh, you've taken a photo of a lady who looks like she's on public transport.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: And you've written 'What are your thoughts about eating pies on public transport? Everything about it stinks.' And you've posted a photo of a lady with the pie. Any other context you want to give on that? You've sort of cut out her face. So, like, do you think that's okay? Because you can't—

Tommy: 100%, that's totally fine. You wouldn't be able to tell. She wouldn't even know who that is. This many years back, that was on a train in Sydney, the double-decker, um, the which I only say because I'm from Melbourne. We didn't have them growing up, so I was fascinated when I first started going up to Sydney.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I remember just the stench of that meat pie. That's an off-the-train food. Just as is a whole chicken.

Josh: Which you've also seen, have you?

Tommy: No, I saw that at the fucking airport. They were trying to scoff the chicken before they went through security.

Josh: That's full-on.

Tommy: Just coughed a full chicken.

Josh: Oh, no, legit.

Tommy: Yeah, it was like a full chicken.

Josh: Well, you've got some form of— It seems like public transport brings it out in you. I think it brings it out in others. Yeah, but you seem to share more.

Tommy: Yeah, so it's a great place to be observant and see the quirks, which is, you know me, I do that.

Josh: I'll show you a photo that you shared and you can tell me about this bloke, why you think you may have posted it, describe what he looks like. Do you—

Tommy: Oh mate, that's Santa.

Josh: So describe the photo.

Tommy: Looks like— I cannot remember doing this— on an airplane, and it's from very low looking up, so it's a sneaky shot.

Josh: But you can fully see his face.

Tommy: You fully see his face, except for half of his face is covered by a ginormous grey beard. So he looks like Santa.

Josh: And so you wrote, uh, this was the 22nd of January 2015.

Tommy: So summer in Australia. This is where my head is just going, what have I said?

Josh: And just after Christmas.

Tommy: Christmas.

Josh: Yeah, insert Santa joke here.

Tommy: Great.

Josh: Do you reckon you do this nowadays?

Tommy: Um, I've got more to lose now. I didn't back then.

Josh: But do you think you've got more empathy for like that old dude as well?

Tommy: No, not old dude, Santa. Here's the thing, I posted a photo on Kiss FM's Instagram account.

Josh: That's a radio show here, a radio station here in Australia.

Tommy: When I was working for them digital content. And it was this dude that had the longest hair you've ever seen, down to the ground, orange hair, walking through the city, not homeless. So it's like just a dude who probably likes having long hair. And I wrote something, was like, um, have you spotted Rapunzel? So like, it wasn't this, how's this idiot, it was like, oh my God, how cool is this guy's hair, um, how cool is this Rapunzel's hair, or something like that. And someone called up and said and complained at the radio station.

Josh: Did you have to take it?

Tommy: I was so pissed off that the, the boss took it down. And I said to him, where's that photo, mate? He's like, oh, he's like, he wasn't even going to tell me about it. He's like, um, oh, someone called up and complained to take it down. I said, why? Why'd you take it down? And he just was pandering to people, um, that were just giving any pushback because he didn't want to have to deal with it. There was no face in it. It was just from the back. I think it was interesting observation. And yeah, it was, but like, I feel the same way anyway. So November 4, I feel like you're trying to, they're going like the first one, no face, second one face.

Josh: So we'll do 4 more.

Tommy: Oh my God, is that over a toilet cubicle?

Josh: So this was at November 2014. I'll show you a photo. You just had a thing for taking photos photos of people and then writing captions, but you can definitely see their face. Here's the photo. Let's see. What do you take of that? What do you describe it to our listeners?

Tommy: That is what it looks like is someone at the races. I can't even remember. She's got a sash on.

Josh: The races being?

Tommy: The races being the horse races where all the gals and guys doll up and put on, you know, dresses and suits. And but I can't even— like, I don't even know what I would have written. There's just an old lady who's dolled up wearing, like, holding a phone in her hand. And then, okay, they're in an airport. What the hell? No shoes on. No shoes. Yeah, I definitely would have commented on the shoes.

Josh: Yeah, so you said, nice to see the Melbourne Cup class has found its way to the airport. Hashtag Melbourne Cup 2014. Hashtag barefoot. Hashtag all class.

Tommy: Yeah, put some fucking shoes on, girls. So you're in the airport, that's disgusting.

Josh: So you would, you would keep that up, do you think?

Tommy: Yeah, I wouldn't probably— I wouldn't do it now. But I saw you sniffing around some old, um, in, uh, Snapchat videos that I put up. I wouldn't do that now. Like, I was, I was even watching myself, whereas I used to Snapchat everything, right? And I think it was— and, and I'll say, if you want to start becoming a better storyteller, start Instagram storying everything and annoying everyone. It won't get to you, Josh, but I think it is a great way to tell a linear story. So the, the automatic editing of these things, just, um, you know, in order, tell the story, and it gives you a moment to think about the next little bit, the next little bit, and will it tell a storey by the end of the 10 little Insta storeys or Snapchats?

Josh: You could do that without having to post it.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely. But what I actually liked about it was I put it out there.

Josh: Okay, so this is the final one. This isn't an image. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna edit this one, uh, on the fly to save our own reputation.

Tommy: Really?

Josh: Yes, this was from—

Tommy: because I don't think those other ones were bad.

Josh: This is— I know, this is from April 2014. Yeah, and we're going to— we'll delete this so people can't go back and find it. Okay. The amount of times I've been disappointed with insert one of our current clients, food, yet still gone back is a joke. Hashtag first world problems.

Tommy: I have the, I have the, um, company name on my mind.

Josh: I won't say it, but do you stand by it? I'll say it again. The amount of times I've been disappointed with our client's food, yet still gone back is a joke. Hashtag First world problems.

Tommy: Yeah, no, I can't remember who it is, like, I— but I'd put money on who I think it is. Yeah, but I guess it's a fair call. They've got me. Is there a— is there a brand— I wouldn't write that now, of course not. But look, imagine if 7-Eleven was a client of ours. Yeah, in a year's time, I fucking—

Josh: you want to talk about 7-Eleven? I feel like you want to talk about 7-Eleven.

Tommy: Yeah, but I'm definitely deleting that tweet.

Josh: Because I told you I have some incriminating stuff.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And you're worried that it was just like the use of the word gay out of context or whatever. Because I don't know if 2014 it was okay even.

Tommy: 2012 I said in a video, this is something about, this is my mate Fitzie, he's gay from the waist down, which I was referring to gay guys being great dancers and that Fitzie's a great dancer. Which when I wrote it, I didn't even think twice about it, but I watched the back and I was like, I fucking said that, that's whack.

Josh: Yeah. So I mean, how does it—

Tommy: I still stand by gay guys are usually amazing dancers.

Josh: I'd stand by that too. I don't know if you have to, I don't know if that's a thing that people are fighting for, but with me giving you that information, has it given you any insights into that? Because you said to me too, you were like, see, Josh, you were with your social media, you were just sort of a train of thought kind of guy, just putting shit up.

Tommy: Yeah, that was after. No, hang on, what the fuck is this? That was after. What did you say that you wrote? I know you, you don't have to say that way because you've deleted it, but because you told me the tweet and then I was sure, so I won't even throw you into that hole. Yeah, but some of the tweets were some of your tweets, which I'm not trying to go one for one You used to say shit like, Brianna and I are getting Mexican tonight, looking forward to it. Shit like that.

Josh: But that's probably less offensive. Yeah.

Tommy: So I thought those bits— what I will stand by is my old thinking of— I don't— I wouldn't do it now, but I thought it was like an angle. I was trying to get quirky.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Like they've— like the Santa thing is unoriginal.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: The girls from the races photo that are not wearing their heels anymore. It's not original.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And, um, because the other one was just destructive.

Josh: But don't you also think that with social media that that stuff could easily fly the other way now, where it's like, that lady without shoes on isn't wearing shoes because she has cancer, and then you, my friend, become an absolute asshole?

Tommy: Yeah, I know. But how, how frightened Like, how do we have to live in the— so like live a life of worry about that stuff? James, Conspiracy Jimmy, he was saying like he found those old videos that we were talking about the other day, you and I working together, and I was like really cringe on it. And his perspective was like, own it, bro, own it. I think you've come so far. Like, he had this, this different perspective on it, which though all those things I could own, I could own everything you've said.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I could own that brand that I, that, you know, person we now work with because it's something I thought it's a bit different when you're getting a bit racist and a bit homophobic.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And a bit transphobic, all these things. Like that's where I think it's probably valid that you kind of are called out, but there's a blurred line about what we're being called out about.

Josh: If you were, for instance, you know, you were talking the other day about the guy on Punt Road, which is a Common Road here in Melbourne. Yes, he was, um, you described him as off his face.

Tommy: There was something going on there and he was being a danger to other people on the road.

Josh: If he'd had some form of condition that wasn't, uh, drug-induced, say someone who's like severely autistic or whatever.

Tommy: But no, I— because I made— so here's the thing, maybe there's like a lot of filtering going on in my head before I even bring something. So I felt like I might— like I may have been a bit aggressive in that. What episode? I haven't listened back to that episode. I can't remember what it is, which was no use to you listening right now.

Josh: But go back to every episode and you'll hear it.

Tommy: No, but I, I thought about it, how it paints me, um, the potential of what was up with that guy. But I then felt so strongly that he should not be on the road and I based it around myself and my thoughts of my wife and my kid. Imagine if my baby ran out and this fucking idiot who was driving erratically, irresponsibly killed my kid. And so that's where I went with it, which is pretty extreme, right? But it gives me a justification.

Josh: Could you give the extreme, the opposite with him? So build a case right now for extreme empathy based on this guy.

Tommy: And I kind of did in the moment. I wiped the autistic thing off the table and You cannot drive if you have severe autism. You cannot drive if you have severe epilepsy, which these are all just unfortunate, you know, circumstances because there are some abled people that are classed as disabled and can't drive. I had a client that had epilepsy, mild, and she got her licence taken off.

Josh: What about this?

Tommy: I mean, this is where I went. I empathised with the fact that I thought he could be a drug addict that's still actually employed. 'Who has been on ice all night and is now driving back to his hotel room after spending a day at work and has a family back in Sydney. He was in a hire car and he is on the edge. He is thinking about suicide.' Like, this is actually what I thought. But then I thought, if we are excusing people and their situations when it, when it actually couldn't affect others. So when people, little old grandma or the little old grandpa that the guy I know was driving on ice and killed because he was parked on the side of the road getting out of his car, and the dude I know who I grew up with swerved into him and killed him. So, you know, like, that's where I sort of, I, I have this conflicting. And so for that, it's like the call I made, I think, I think I made the right one.

Josh: Because you told— what did you say in the moment?

Tommy: Yeah, I went up next to him to inspect more of what was going on.

Josh: The guy was starting and stopping, he was slumped in the car.

Tommy: Yeah, he was basically falling asleep, then having a dance party, and then just like doing this weird shit with his hands. And anyway, as he was driving, as he was driving, and so then I rolled up next to him and I could see that he was just like off his face, and I just said, pull your head in, and he got the biggest fright of his life. And he looked over 'Oh my!' And he didn't look like someone who was a drug addict. He was well clothed in a hiker. And I said, 'I've called the cops. I've reported you to the police.' And he's like, 'Oh mate.' And then I said, 'Drive sensibly.' And he's like, 'I'm so sorry, sorry.' And he kind of looked like he'd snapped back into reality. So did I do the right thing, or will I regret that in 10 years? I don't know.

Josh: Well, I was on a project a few months ago, and there was an event element of it. And one of the ladies who was sort of heading up the tickets for this event, she was like, she had to organise all the seats. And I thought like, oh, she wasn't able to speak properly. And I felt really sad for her. I was empathising because she looked very stressed.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then someone else from the event goes, this chick is fucking off her face, like, can we get someone else? And so the interesting thing was I went into a place, I'd already gone into a place of, oh, this person's like not doing well, I wonder, like, she's probably been thrown into this thing, she's not coping, she's got severe anxiety. When do we need genuine Not empathy, because I think it can be to have tough love and empathy.

Tommy: Yeah, I don't think that someone could judge me for my situation in their car, but I still stand by it.

Josh: Was there an empathetic one? Was there a more empathetic way?

Tommy: Yeah, definitely tone back the aggression 80% and just—

Josh: But you made the horn say cut through.

Tommy: Dude, yeah, definitely. And so, yeah, because I, it's I chose to engage in that situation and I did think about, you know, like maybe I didn't wanna choose, but I don't know, I was a bit sort of single-focused once I started thinking about my child and my wife and—

Josh: Well, you build up this case.

Tommy: Yeah, 100%. I think calling someone like they're off their face just for that, like that circumstance, I've got more of an issue with that without taking slight inquiry. I feel like I ticked a lot of boxes when I understand that this person's on the road behind the wheel of a car. You know, it's 'cause you don't make excuses for someone who's drinking. I think if we're talking about someone who was drunk and behind the wheel, unacceptable. And nothing excuses that, even if they are down on life and, you know, hard done by, it's still just like, we live in this world where The— we have to consider other people.

Josh: Is it our job to call out bad behavior?

Tommy: It's the same vein, line of thinking around littering. People who, uh, you know, um, strong feminists, or, you know, like, yeah, sure, yeah, within different categories, some people take it upon themselves as a mission Why? I don't know.

Josh: Why do you? Because you've definitely the littering things, people chucking rubbish.

Tommy: It fucking infuriates me. I don't know why. It's as I've got older, I've just like thought, I've found it a really selfish thing for someone to do because it is completely lack of considering other people and the environment. Because I see maybe it's like being a dad, being a business owner, you know, carving my way in this world where it's like, if I don't do, if I don't, if I throw the bottle on the road, that doesn't just miraculously disappear. Someone else has to do what I didn't want to do. And that's my thinking around that, the rubbish stuff. It's like inconsiderate to others. And so in answer to your question, maybe there is like— we, we choose these things, and sometimes there is probably a reason, but we haven't— I maybe haven't connected the dots as to why. And so Yeah, I don't know why. Maybe we just— yeah, I don't know why I go hard sometimes and I don't others. Like, I would let a lot of things slide, right?

Josh: Because on the other side of the coin, like, you've had friends who have gone through a lot, gone through substance abuse, come up the other side, people you haven't seen for a long time, but you've felt like you need to be— when they've, you know, 2 years on or whatever, come back, you feel like you need to be there. Yeah, because I, I feel like I wonder about those things where it's like, um, I think I have moments in life where I'm like, I try and help people. If I don't feel like they engage in what I've suggested, or I just— I'll cut them out. I'll just be like, yeah, nah.

Tommy: Yeah. And I probably have done that. Family's different. Like, you, you know, I've heard the what someone say about a family member, if they weren't my family member, I would not be friends with them. I would not be around for them. And so there is that. I don't know where I was going with that, but I think it is—

Josh: But how much empathy do we give to that, I guess? Like if a friend is doing something that you think is out of alignment with what they should be doing, do you feel like it is your job to say something? Do you think a good— a good friend would always say something, or is talking about that conflicting advice, everyone's on their own journey, which is like one, and then the other one being around the, um, you know, if you really care about them, you'll do something about it.

Tommy: Yeah, and, and it doesn't always work. Like, I think so, there's millions of people that have been drug addicts in this world. And I would say this exact scenario has probably happened many, many, many times, and it had many outcomes. Best mates— a best friend has become a drug addict, and the best friend has said, I'm pulling you into my house, I'm spending the next 2 weeks with you, we're just— we're going to get through this. One goes, get fucked. The other goes, you know, the other, it saves their life, right?

Josh: Yeah. And so Wait, so you're saying in the same situations you have some people who accept it and other people who push it away?

Tommy: Yeah, and so I think if for the ones that it works, it doesn't mean don't try this stuff. And I think why would one friend say it and maybe they wouldn't another time? It's like I'm trying to think about for me, the people in my life that I've done that for. I don't— there are some friends that I wouldn't, and I don't know the answer to why I wouldn't like I would move away from the pressure.

Josh: Is that— there's some sort of tough, tough love that I feel like I sometimes implement where it's like, I'm not dealing with your shit. Like, I'm removing myself, which will stop the enabling. Like, sometimes being involved and being like, yeah, you okay? What can we do?

Tommy: But here's the— here's the thing. If, if we were— if we had a friend, yeah, and that was your approach to them, that might be exactly what they need.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And if I'm the friend that says, come into my house, that might be exactly what they need.

Josh: So how do we know though? How do we play?

Tommy: I don't think we know.

Josh: But I guess there is a part of like not wanting to be codependent, not wanting like, you know, if you might have a parent that isn't doing well and, you know, I've heard multiple cases where it's like, ah, you know, I've decided to disconnect from my mum or my dad because of, you know, substance abuse or, you know, alcoholism that they're not doing anything about. What sort of responsibility do we have as people that are connected with someone who's going through that to do something?

Tommy: Yeah, well, Mick Hall, who we've had on this podcast, was in jail with Chopper Read. Yes, the cell, the ex-heroin addict. Well, he's still an addict, just hasn't done heroin for nearly 20 years, and he owns a rehab centre helping hundreds of people. Get through what he has, um, and out the other side successfully. But he was saying— he used the phrase letting go with love, which is a horrible concept when you really love somebody, a family member's a drug addict, and you cannot do anything because they self-sabotage or they need to help themselves. And he said it's a real strategy. That is, that is one way if other ways don't work, letting go with love. And that is finding it in yourself to actually let go and just love them for their fault, their flaws, and their fucking addiction. And because they need to get through that. And so that is one way. I think there's probably multiple ways. It's not like addiction and things in this world, it's, it's not good enough to just push it. If everyone pushed everything away and didn't, didn't, didn't actually engage with it and try and help It would be disastrous, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do what you're saying. Like, don't engage. Yeah, it's not your problem. Someone else will deal with it. Someone else probably will, because not everyone is saying someone else's problem, because there's blokes like me fucking pulling you up for flicking your cigarette butt. It's a, it's a weird, it's a difficult thing, and I don't know why we engage with the things we do all the time, but they're built over our experiences and stuff.

Josh: Because it's almost— because I think sometimes we see people as projects, or we say sometimes we're projecting our own thing that we can help them or that we're going to change, you know, someone. But it's a, um— I just think about looking at this in the street and you see someone that's got, you know, got substance abuse issues or whatever it is, and it's like, you've probably— you've got, you know, those people have close family members who have obviously made some form of decision, maybe, to let go with love, and where does that leave them within a community context?

Tommy: Yeah. Oh man, I, I was watching Jordan Peterson doing one of his live streams talking about— he had this father that fucking wrote through about suicide and about his young daughter who had killed herself, and Jordan Peterson was crying on this fucking— it was so moving because he's got severe depression throughout his family and suicide. And he was just saying, sometimes you cannot help them. Sometimes there's no way to help them. And that's coming from a dude who knows the brain better than the majority of people in this world. He's up there with the, you know, the greats in the psychology, clinical psychologist space. And that is fucked, thinking about that.

Josh: I think I just worry about the extremes. I worry about extreme individualism, and I worry about extreme codependency where we're just worried about what everyone's thinking and concerned in other people's shit rather than dealing with our own.

Tommy: Well, there's projecting, it's multi-layered. There's stuff going on in your life, your experiences, what's happened to you in the past. Because I think blocking people out and shutting people off is its own thing.— is its own thing. It's a part of what you've experienced in your life. And so that's just your journey. It's not right or wrong.

Josh: Yeah, it's true.

Tommy: Because you might have a mate— like, imagine if I became a bit of a fucking junkie and you pulled me in line and it was the only way to help. Like, yeah, I mean, it's true. You committed to the podcast, so you really needed a daily show.

Josh: You'd have to show up. Well, maybe we could do 24-hour shows if you're on ice. You would really do Double down. Tommy's 24-hour live stream.

Tommy: Be up and down, bro.

Josh: What would, what would we change Fat Fridays to? Oh yeah, Fat Joint Fridays. It's a big fat joint. Where are we, where are we going on Friday? Tomorrow is Friday and we've got a new, um, show Benchmark where every Friday we go somewhere and have some form of food that will inevitably make us fat.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, but then we get chiselled on the weekend.

Josh: We fast. A little bit of bulimia, all the above. Where are we going to go?

Tommy: Yeah, I'm not sure yet. I— we will work it out because it's something sweet, do you think? So let's just work it out now. We've got— we've done donuts, um, we've done burgers, so we can't do donuts, burgers. We need to do something that's either like on the stick shakes or something. I still— that's around the doughnut space, don't you think? You get a doughnut, you get thick shakes at doughnut joints. So I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to go, what's, what's that make sense?

Josh: Donuts aren't shakes. What about doughnuts aren't shakes?

Tommy: I know doughnuts aren't shakes.

Josh: Shakes aren't donuts. That's so fucking dumb to say. I, what you just don't want— this is what pisses me off. You make out like you're putting a case forward of like, well, we can't have shakes because shakes are like donuts.

Tommy: It's sweet, it's Too sweet, but that's the whole thing. Too close to the donuts. How about savory?

Josh: Like, too close to burgers.

Tommy: Yeah, true.

Josh: That's what I mean.

Tommy: We're calling it off.

Josh: No, but you've— you bring up a case and then you create some fucking— we couldn't possibly do that. Maybe.

Tommy: Why?

Josh: Straws? We can't use straws.

Tommy: Maybe we could go for a drive and find like an all-you-can-eat, like a Pizza Hut all-you-can-eat.

Josh: Yeah, it's high at thedailytalkshow.com. It is, it is, um, just after 4 PM here, uh, in Melbourne. Tomorrow we'll be eating somewhere. I guess we'll probably do it around midday. So guys, if you're listening now and it's before midday on Friday, let us know where in Melbourne should we have something to eat.

Tommy: Yeah, and hey, send it through anyway if you, if you miss it, because we've got more Fridays to come and we want to be Fatties.

Josh: Or our new international listeners, maybe just submit categories of food. And are doughnuts the same as shapes?

Tommy: Definitely not. I fucked up, guys.

Josh: It's a daily talk show. I'm sorry. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. We'll see you tomorrow. Bye.