Bobby Cappuccio Opting In To Life

Robert: Wait a minute! Crossface, the Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Josh: The Daily Talk Show from Los Angeles, Tommy Jackett.

Tommy: Thank you, Josh. We're joined by special guest Bobby Cappaccio. Did I say that right?

Robert: Thank you, yes.

Tommy: I have said cappuccino once or twice.

Robert: That's what I was thanking you for, not being on the show, but thanks for finally getting my name right.

Tommy: Yes, yes.

Robert: Fuck sakes. Can I say fuck sakes on this?

Tommy: Absolutely. Fucking oath. Fucking oath. I think I got it right because I saw you and we met on Craig Harper, his camp that he did in the Peninsula. You flew out from America to—

Robert: Somewhere, yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, to be one of the speakers.

Robert: Oh God, yeah, that was a great weekend.

Tommy: Amazing.

Robert: We got bunk beds and everything. It was kind of weird.

Tommy: It was full, um, school camp-esque.

Robert: It was like a compound. Yeah, it's like a self-help compound.

Josh: Yeah, jail vibes. Yeah, slightly.

Tommy: But I was encapsulated with hearing you speak in your story, Bobby, because thank you, you've had an interesting ride. If we look at our lives like a roller coaster or, you know, a ride at a theme park, yours has been Fairly interesting.

Robert: You couldn't tell that just because I was on the list of speakers that Hobbs would like invite? Like, anybody who knows Hobbs, like, seriously, yeah, they've had to have had an interesting ride.

Josh: So Craig Harper we've had on the show. How did you first meet Hobbs?

Robert: I don't remember. Hobbs is one of those guys who just always seems to have been there.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: And I think if I trace it back, we have a mutual friend, someone really close to us, Richard Boyd. And Harp's, you know, how he got started originally is he was selling more personal training per location out of like his gyms that he owned than almost anybody else in the world. And this is like back in the 1990s before anybody had really structured personal training and figured this out. And this guy Craig Harper who was doing really, really well. So Richard Boyd, going to another story, he had a studio in Noosa. And there was all these questions that people would have, and he didn't know how to answer them. And I'm kind of like ad-libbing on behalf of him, so this, this isn't the exact thought he had. Yeah, but this is the thought I think he should have had, and it sounds better the way I tell it than his story. I said, I wish there was almost like a hologram next to me, not like Princess Leia, although that would be really cool, but a hologram that every time I had a question, I could turn to this hologram and I can converse with this hologram that possesses all of the knowledge in the world related to personal training and all of the relevant applied sciences. And so this way I can give my clients not only valid information, but tools and resources to be at their most resourceful in getting to where they wanna be. So he's sharing this thought with John and Rose, couple of his clients, and you know, they were retired and they had done really well. I said, you know what, why don't we invest in an online business, this is back in the 1990s, that you can get all of the world's experts to give the very best information that they've learned through years of trial and error. So back at the time, you know, some of these guys were pretty old. So you can have thousands of years collective, not chronological, obviously, not vampires, but thousands of years of expertise where if you can type in the right search words, any trainer can get information in articles, audios, eventually videos. And he's like, I'm gonna go around the world and build this. So the problem is like he didn't have any authors. So he was writing all the articles himself, but he didn't really know anything, like massive grammatical errors, like shit was spelt wrong. Usually that was his name. It's just like, I can't get other people other than me. So his journey led him to Craig Harper. And then eventually he connected with a company I was working with at the time, the National Academy of Sports Medicine. So I was working with NASM and we were an up-and-coming certification education company. So we got a line, he connected me to Hopper through some series of events that, you know, I don't know, I was probably too intoxicated at the time to properly remember. So yeah, that's it.

Josh: And so having done that in such the early days in the, in the '90s, when you see these trends coming back, are you skeptical? Do you have a different mind when you look at these things? Like we're gonna create this content hub and do all this sort of stuff. What do you think about?

Robert: Well, depends on the trend, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: Because trends are cyclical and some of them are actually quite useful. I don't think there's any such thing as an original thought. I know I've never had one. But some trends are— they're marketing fads, really. They're not actual trends. When I look at a trend, I think about something that is gonna permanently shift the way we think, the way we live. So Uber. I, I, I didn't drive my own car here, which is probably good for everybody on the road in Los Angeles. I took an Uber. That's a trend. That's not going away. Even if Uber folds tomorrow, unlikely, you know what? Rideshare is something that's here to stay. Facebook changed the way we communicate. That's not a fad. That's a trend, right? So Netflix changed the way we consume entertainment, you know, crushed Blockbuster. That's a trend. So when we're talking about trends, my question, well, what trends exactly are we talking about?

Josh: And so do you, I guess within the fitness and health space, there's a huge amount, like I guess the difference between a fad and a trend, like it's interesting making sure there is that distinction. How do you identify this is a fad? Say the ketogenic diet, right? Is that a fad or is that a trend?

Robert: Well, I mean, for who and for what goal? Whenever somebody asks me something, it's kind of like, well, that's like a disclaimer. You answer like an attorney. And that's because if you've been around for a while, and you've been around people who base their decisions empirically, not based on emotional anecdotal evidence— well, you know, my Auntie Jane, she lost weight on it, so it must work— you start to realise there's no black and white. There's a grey area. And if you're honest, it's a matter of it depends. So keto, keto's great. For who? For what goal? I mean, the thing with nutrition that's interesting is you can read some research and you have two people who are equally credentialed. It's not like, you know, they were raised by a keto family. My dad was keto. His granddad was keto. So I have this keto-based bias. And it's like, so they go into research and they have good intentions and they're both actively vigorous and they're researching their subject matter really well, but they come to two totally different conclusions. So like, you read one book one of these guys writes, or an article, says, well, do this. Then you read Article B, it says, look, I know you read Article A, that guy's a lunatic, you do that, you're probably gonna die.

Josh: You need to go vegan.

Robert: Yeah, so you got to go vegan, you know, otherwise you're gonna die, animals will die, and you know, then you're gonna have to tell everyone you're vegan like every 5 minutes. So you got to be committed to this. But so, so how do you discern? So I, I think you got to look at what's the commonality like, what is the same theme that all of these people seem to be talking about? And then I had a conversation with a friend of mine, Monica, who has her degree in nutritional sciences. Well, why is this? Why is it that you get success storeys with one person who's on a ketogenic diet, but then somebody who's following a completely different dietary strategy also gets great results? Because they always talk about their testimonies, right? They don't talk about the people who got on it, couldn't stick to it, failed, which, by the way, is most people. National Institute of Health in this country states that out of everyone who sets a goal for weight loss, get this, 97% of the people either fail to lose the weight or fail to keep it off for a span of 5 years. So you could either say, okay, well, 97% of the people in the world are fuckwits and they're hopeless, and these 3%, they're hustling, they're grinding, they're disciplined, they're getting it done. Or you could say, maybe there's fundamentally something wrong with the strategy of diet But original question, what's the commonality and do we factor in bio-individuality? I mean, we're all basically human. It's not like a surgeon cuts open a body, he's like, holy shit, I never saw this before. But within that human structure and human biological systems, there's variance and that variance is important. So I think when you're looking at something, couple of questions to ask is, what exactly do I want to get out of this? Number one. Number 2 is, why is this information valid? What research has been done? Has this research been duplicated? So when they say, well, there's a study, well, what was the methodology of the study? How many people were in this study? Is it even statistically relevant? And, you know, was it ever duplicated? Was there another study? And how do I know if this works for me? What works for me? What's sustainable? What fits into my lifestyle. Because you know what, I think we all behave when it comes to diets, I think we all behave completely congruent with our core values. Can I share a storey with you? Yeah, yeah, of course, since we're here, right?

Tommy: Absolutely. Imagine if we said no.

Robert: Well, fuck off, next question then. Okay, so I was, I was on the beach one day, and that has nothing to do with the actual story, but I was on the phone and it was, it was a conference call, and I was discussing Fitness Based Matters because That's just what I do. And there's this guy, and he— he— you could tell when someone's eavesdropping but doesn't want to appear to be eavesdropping.

Tommy: Oh, that's me. I'm that guy on the beach listening into someone else's convo.

Robert: So there was this weird guy, like Tommy, right? And he kept moving closer and closer. He was kind of like looking at me, and he was really fit, and he had just completed a run.

Josh: Not completely, Tommy, but hey, hey, this was a couple of years back.

Tommy: It would I was in shape, decent rig.

Robert: So I hang up the phone and he's looking at me like kind of like he wants to say something but he's a bit hesitant. And he goes, uh, so what do you do? I'm like, about what? I'm like, holy shit, I think I'm getting picked up. So I got really excited because I could get to go home and tell my wife, baby, I think I still got it, right? But that's not what it was. So yeah, anyway, um He goes, what do you do? And I was like, well, what do you mean? He's like, well, I, I wasn't, I wasn't trying to listen in on your call. He kind of was. And he goes, but you know, I, I knew, I heard you're in fitness. And I was like, yeah, I'm in the fitness industry. And he launches right into his story. He goes, you know, my whole life I was overweight and I used to be 400 pounds. I was like, hmm, interesting.

Tommy: Is this Jared from Subway?

Robert: Yeah. It's not Jared from Subway. I was about to say something. No, no, no. This, it's good. This guy seemed, All right, he was normal, right? So we had this non-pedo type conversation, and he sits down on the bench next to me, and he's like, yeah, you know, I got really sick. And he's just like, you know, those people that just feel comfortable telling you their whole life story.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: And he's like, um, and my doctor finally told me that, um, you know, if I didn't lose weight, I was gonna die. I said, so what happened? You know, now I'm into this. I'm like, clearly you lost the weight. I mean, you're in great shape. He goes, no, I didn't. I couldn't. I was like, what do you mean you couldn't lose the weight? Like, you kept trying different things and it didn't work? He goes, no, I couldn't bring myself to change my lifestyle. He's like, I can't lose weight. I'm Italian. And his name was Paul. He introduced himself to me. I was like, you know, Paul, I don't think that's a valid genetic thing, really. Sorry. I know I don't know you, but I gotta call bullshit. He said, no, he said, I grew up in the restaurant business. And he said, my most beautiful experiences with my family were around food. The business was around food. You know, The holidays are around food. Every day the family would come together, no matter how busy we were, we'd have one meal. It was around food. It was around the types of food I shouldn't be having. I was like, ah, that's interesting. I said, well, so what happened? How'd this happen? He said, well, I made one small change and that inspired me. So what'd you do? He goes, well, I love burgers and fries, and then I heard that it was really healthy to switch from regular fries to sweet potato fries. And in my head I'm going, Paul, when you're eating fries, that's a change in flavor, mate. That's not a healthy habit.

Josh: And also calorically more dense than— he's just—

Robert: but in his mind, yeah, yeah, it was significant.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: And it didn't matter whether or not he was making a healthful choice. In his mind, it was one small step. He said, I knew if I could do that— yes, to him that was like a major accomplishment, like he nearly dislocated both of his shoulders, patting himself on the back doing that— but I could do something else. And then I said, well, what if I didn't have any fries whatsoever? What if I had a salad? And that led to these micro changes and micro commitments, which kind of changed his self-concept. So what he had working in his favour in behaviour change was cognitive cognitive dissonance to where he had that inner drive to be consistent. And after a while, he'd made so many micro-commitments, to break those micro-commitments would cause a conflict that would cause emotional duress. So it was easier for him to keep going than stop, and he just kept snowballing. I think when it comes to diet fads, the bigger question is, what can you do today? What's one small micro-commitment you can make today? Because a lot of times when you see people who are always striving and never arriving, The bullshit you hear from self-help gurus are, well, just make better decisions. Thanks. That's like somebody's really worried about something going on with work and you go, well, don't worry. Yeah, holy shit, where did you come from? I never thought of that.

Josh: It's like when you, you lose your wallet and then my girlfriend says, where did you leave it last? Well, if I knew that, I knew that, then we wouldn't be in this predicament.

Robert: Technically good advice.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: But not useful. And these are like the same people, just, just eat less, move more. That's like telling a drowning person, hey, why don't you just drown less, swim more? Okay, fine. You basically need strategies that can resolve ambivalence, you know. I mean, I mean, my basic philosophy on why people fail to keep their commitments, it's not because they're lazy, not because they're unmotivated, because if you take a look at people, most people, in other areas of their life, they're really competent. So they might struggle with weight loss, but they've got 3 businesses and they're a multi-millionaire, uh, and they're surrounded by people who are struggling financially, but they've been able to get that done and overcome a series of hurdles. So where's the incongruence?

Josh: I look at Oprah, I'm like, fuck, if Oprah can't keep her weight off, what fucking chance do I have?

Robert: Yeah, I mean, let's take a look at Oprah, because if, if you would ask most quote-unquote gurus and coaches. Well, why is someone who publicly had an interest in losing weight, made public declarations, and then you saw her go through that struggle of losing weight and gain— what would you say? And if you didn't say this person was Oprah, they go, well, they just need to make better decisions. They're lazy. They're not disciplined.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: Oprah is one of the most powerful, successful people on the planet, and she came from less than nothing. So you're telling me that type of person got there through laziness, lack of motivation, lack of discipline? Nope, sorry. So many of us would be billionaires just like Oprah if that's what it took. Yeah, so there's an incongruence there. And what I think is the biggest reason why we struggle is because of ambivalence. And I define that simply as we want two things that are in opposition. Like when I was 5 years old, I wanted a pet kitten, but I also really wanted a pet hawk. Those two things don't go together. You should put— not ever put those two gifts in the same household.

Tommy: Which one did you get?

Robert: I got neither. I got neither.

Josh: Is there a bit of analysis paralysis, do you think, in this type of thing, where we are trying to make a positive change but we don't know which one? So is the idea that what you're saying is make the change even if it's the sweet potato fries with the idea that we'll eventually work out what is right?

Robert: You got to start somewhere. I think sometimes doing supersedes thinking, and I'm a big thinking fan, you know. I think every day. I'm thinking right now, as a matter of fact. However, you can overthink. There's got to be some element of that where you're perpetually getting ready to get ready because of so much conflicting advice, direction, information. And you know what? If we have found the perfect human diet that works for everyone, someone is doing a very good job keeping it a secret because everybody would be on it. So understand, you're never going to have perfect information. Conditions are never going to be perfect. But at least when you get started, if you can remove the storey and the narratives from the situation, and if you could get past the emotion and just take a look at— one or two things are always going to happen. You're gonna— you have an anticipated desired result that's gonna happen, or something you did not want and did not expect is going to happen, and that's also a very good thing. And if you could prepare yourself for both of those and look at it more analytically and less emotionally— I know that sounds idiotic because you have a lot of emotional investment, so when dis— when disappointing things happen, people become disappointed. Which is how it got a reputation.

Josh: Yeah, right.

Tommy: You've been in the fitness world for a few decades now. Where— how did you sort of enter into this? Where, where did this— your— where do you see your storey starting that you share with people?

Robert: Well, I had a strong conflict, you know. I was born physically deformed, right? So I had a facial deformity. And I know people can't see me right now, but most of the times I say this in a live audience, people like, facial deformity? You mean it was worse than this? It's like, yeah. And, and that's surprising for a lot of people. So my legs were a little bit disfigured, my face was deformed, and so that was horrible. And then I went through a lot of violence, um, in the household. I'm not even going to get into that, but, but a lot of sexual violence, physical, emotional violence. And I got to a point where, you know, I had Tourette's as well, so I was this like not only physically deformed kid, but I was twitching. And, you know, then I had like these outbursts and like this, this uncontrollable vulgarity. And just people just assumed I was Australian. And, um, so I, I needed to do something constructive. Team sports were not for me, um, because part of Tourette's, a lot of my motor skills were a little bit off. Like one day I remember my stepfather, um, took me out and in front of everybody said, we're gonna teach you how to play baseball, right? Baseball's big here in America. And his instruction consisted of throwing a ball at me, hit me right in the face.

Tommy: Yeah, they're hard, those balls.

Robert: Very. And, you know, rather than going, okay, let's see what happened, maybe there's some skill development required, he yelled at me, do better, catch it, catch it. I didn't know how to catch. Screaming at me, catch it. Again, not very good coaching.

Tommy: Yeah, where'd you last leave your wallet? Exactly, same advice.

Josh: Useless.

Robert: All these other kids are watching. He picks up the ball, throws it at me, hits me in the face again. So he yells at me again, picks up the ball again, hits me in the face for the third time. I'm like, this game sucks. Yeah, I don't know the point of this, but I don't like it. So I wanted to get into something that I could do autonomously, and a lot of other people were starting to work out so they could perform better in sport or they could get noticed. Me, I was trying to work out so I could be almost invisible. I can just almost disappear and do my own thing. But then something weird started happening. One, I started getting better results than anybody else my age around me anyway. And I can, you know, speculate the reasons as to why that happened. You know, maybe some of it's genetics, some of it, you know, had nothing else. So I put a lot of effort into it. And people started to ask, like, well, let's ask this freaky-looking kid what he's doing. So when I started giving advice, I became significant for the first time in my life. And in my neighborhood, there were 3 strategies that started to emerge. One, if I wanted to stop intense bullying, there was violence. Probably not the best strategy to take with you, you know, solve problems into adulthood. Then there was Comedy. If I could say something funny, okay, that would stave off an altercation, but it really wouldn't gain me any acceptance. Then this strategy started to emerge: I can offer value to people. I have something for the first time, like, people want. And if I give to other people, I start to realise the only way out of suffering is through contribution.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: And I started reading a lot, and it was like magazines like Muscle Fiction and You know, it wasn't like real scientific data, but it's all I had. I didn't know the difference. And I was reading it not just for my own purposes, but I had the intention now of sharing everything that I acquired. So that kind of led me to get into the gyms. And yeah, this conflict I was going through is I didn't really think that— even though I got great results, I didn't consider myself very intelligent. And mostly because my teachers and peers like, you're not very intelligent. So I thought I thought, alright, they can't all be wrong. So I thought, I'm just gonna work harder than everybody else. And I wanted to be a cop because I wanted to get into Special Victims Unit. This is even before it was a TV show. I just thought, if I can become a police officer, maybe I can help people who are struggling with domestic violence. So I can maybe help a few people that are going through what I went through as a kid. But you know what, there was something else I wanted even more, and I didn't know exactly what that was, and I knew it kind of lived inside the four walls of the gym. And it took me finding a guy, Mitchell Pacifica, who was my first real valuable mentor, to see more in me than I saw in myself. And he was the owner of the gym. And how we first got introduced is a member complained about me because I said, like, I was gonna outwork everybody. So I said, you know, I'm just gonna clean equipment. And I was spraying down equipment, but what I didn't realise is there was a guy using equipment behind that piece. So he was doing, like, a leg extension, and I was spraying his face down with WD-40. So, yeah, that kind of ruined his day. He stormed upstairs. He's like, "There's this mental case." Who's that, right? "Downstairs. I want him gone. He's always doing this crazy stuff. He's cleaning the machines. He's— I want to use stuff. He's cleaning it." So the owner's like, "Let me see who this is." 'And he looks over the railing, and he sees this weirdo running full speed from one piece of equipment, cleaning it like Armageddon's about to hit if I don't finish cleaning this machine, running to that.' He's like, 'I want to talk to that kid.' He's like, 'God, you work really hard.' He's like, 'What are you about? Why are you here? You know, who hired you?' And we became friends. And from there, he kind of thought that I knew my stuff. He kind of liked my mentality, and he loved my passion for being in the gym. And it was kind of me wanting to live up to his expectations. And he convinced me to not pursue law enforcement and stay in the fitness field. And then he promoted me against my will— I just want to say, in my defense— to management. And that started my fitness career journey.

Tommy: And this was in New York?

Robert: It was in New York, yeah, yeah. I first met him in Brooklyn.

Tommy: Yeah, probably good you didn't become a cop there. It's pretty full-on and would have been more full-on back, back when you were there.

Robert: Yeah, I mean, the people who— like, people who became police officers were back then were people in our group who either had an extremely strong righting reflex and psychological— they had a strong sense of justice. Right? They were always the nicest people in the world until you tried to take advantage of someone else. And then the other group were people who, like, were kind of— would have been criminals themselves had they not gone into law enforcement. So I never figured that out. It was like either the very best people you're going to meet or the scariest people went that path. Um, so I don't know. I don't know what kind of police officer I would have been.

Josh: It sounded like you were finding your identity through the gym and through these sort of interactions. Were you ever worried that your identity would be attached to that solely? And is there any risk in that, in going all in on one thing and feeling like—

Robert: for everybody, isn't there? Because if you ask, you know, this is something I've spent a lot of time thinking about. If you ask anybody Like, who are you? Who are you really? What are they going to say? What are most people going to tell you?

Josh: Going to say the job?

Robert: Yeah, I'm a doctor. Yeah, you're a doctor. So when you were born, they held up, yep, another physician here.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: No, it's like you weren't a doctor. You weren't born in a lab coat, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: Or they say, well, I'm a mother, I'm a dad, I'm a brother. No, these are roles. Quintessentially, it's not the essence of who you are. And when you say identity, To me, semantics are everything. My first question is, define identity. And my definition for identity is the degree to which human beings have an affinity to someone, something, or belonging to a group of people. And if you think about— now, Maslow's hierarchy, um, as a psychological model is quite flawed, and it's flawed for a lot of reasons, but it's also very useful. And let's get past the first one, physiological needs. You know, I mean, most people you talk to are not starving. They're not going to die if they don't, like, I don't know, get, like, the popcorn that's in the middle of the table. So when you go up to the other remaining 4, or in some interpretations of the model, 5 needs, you've got safety, belonging, then you've got esteem, then you've got self-actualization and self-transcendence. So all human beings in my mind are walking around preoccupied with 4 major questions. Am I safe? Do I belong? Am I significant, right? Am I enough? Do I matter? Am I important? And the final question is, am I inspired, right? So when you identify so strongly with a position or career, you're getting a few basic human needs met. One, safety, right? As long as I'm attached to this, I'm safe. Not really, but that's the perception. And I get a sense of belonging, right? You know, I do what I, I use corporate jargon, I dress like people in my corporation dress, whether that's jeans and a t-shirt or a certain colour suit. Um, you know, if I do well and I obey the rules, I get esteem. Am I inspired? Hopefully not necessarily, but I'm getting a few basic human needs met as long as I, I identify with what it is I do, but that's not the essence of who I am. I mean, if you strip the essence of who you are down till there's nothing left, that's who you are. Who you are is nothing. And let me just explain that because people misinterpret that and they get very upset. I'm not saying you're worth nothing, you're insignificant. I'm saying you are nothing. And, and the best example I can use is I, I dated this woman for a while who was an extremely talented art artist in South London. And I went to her studio a few times, and she would literally start work by walking into the studio. It was kind of like shared space, and there'd be this empty canvas on her wall. Now let's say the night before, a really cheeky, unscrupulous artist looked at her canvas and said, I'm going to use this, and put all their stuff all over her canvas. She comes in the next morning, what is she able to create? Not much. And anything she creates has to be within the confines of what's already been created for her. So she can augment, but she can't create afresh and anew But if she comes in the next morning and nobody touched her canvas and it's blank— so in other words, what's on it? Nothing. What can she do? Anything she can imagine. And that's the essence of who we are.

Tommy: Are we confusing things with social media? You know, I see social— like the, the questions you outline for each one of those core needs. They're straightforward. But I think it's this— there's so much confusion in the world about, uh, because we're getting stimuli— stimulation from a bunch of these.

Robert: How could there not be? Yeah, I mean, we get more sensory input like within a weekend than, I don't know, our grandparents got arguably in the course of their entire lifetime. Like, how could there be confusion when so many people are competing for mindshare. I mean, it used to be— I thought Facebook was a place you went to to connect with people you haven't seen in a long time and watch some really cool cat videos whilst you're there. Now it's all these, like, these political people and these political arguments, and, you know, the diets. Oh my god, the keto diet, the paleo diet, the cabbage diet. It's like, holy shit, the pure sashimi diet. I went on that for a weekend. That was pretty nice, actually. So yeah, I mean, I just made that shit up, but there's all these different diets, and like the vegans versus the paleos, and nobody really agrees on anything. We're so polarised that you're either— you either think like me or you're entirely wrong. I mean, it's gotten so serious. If you leave like a paleo alone with a vegan, the paleo might actually eat the vegan. So it's like people can't even communicate or get on with one another. And that's really sad because we identify so strongly with our opinion on something and people who seem to share that opinion. And Facebook's an easy place to go. Social media in general is an easy place to go and like find these people and connect with these groups. And it's not all bad, you know. I mean, social media, it's a tool, right? I mean, that's like saying, well, microphones, microphones are really bad. Or the telephone, you know, it interrupted face-to-face conversation. Yeah, it also facilitated conversations, you know, we can never really have. Now, if that stops you from going out into the real world and you're a hermit and you don't have socialization— and I believe that interaction and play and socialisation is essential for brain development and emotional health— but if you're not doing that kind of stuff, well, that hurts you. But it's not the phone, it's, it's how much of the tool and in what way do you use the tool and to what end? And I think it's too new, so we don't really know how to use this tool yet.

Josh: Yeah. And do we know how to answer the question, am I significant? What, what should we— because when, when I ask the question, am I significant, it can be very easy to say, okay, well, what are the people around me saying about me? What are, you know— and so how do we actually answer that question?

Robert: Well, if we use other people, we're always going to be depressed. I mean, if you were, if you were standing on a corner handing out gold bricks to everyone who walked by, somebody would videotape that and criticise you on Facebook. Well, what about platinum? What about people who invest in silver? You're fucking ruining those people's lives. You know, how come I didn't get a brick? How come that corner? It's like everyone's gonna have an opinion. You, you, you could try to live your life as quote-unquote properly and good as well, and someone's gonna hate you for it. So if I'm basing my self-worth on other people's opinions, it's gonna be a hard ride. I mean, at the camp I talked about originating intention, and that— because I mean, I don't have the answer to like any of these questions. Who does? Well, okay, listen, here's the answer to significance. I've got it figured out. You're either a bullshit artist or you're a lunatic. But here's what's worked for me, and here's what I've used to help other people kind of navigate through quite a turbulent terrain and ocean of information and confusion before. I was working with probably one of the fav— my favourite CEOs I've ever worked with. Um, you know, he's, he's from, he's from NZ, kind of a weird guy. Not because of that, you know, I, I, I, I love NZ, it's my favourite third world country, and He's just a beautiful type of dude, and he thinks on a little bit of an atypical plane, to put it mildly. And when he got into this company and we were part of his core team, one of the first things he did was get rid of the mission statements. And, you know, people freak out. You're gonna get rid of the mission statement? Like, what the fuck are we gonna laminate? Yeah, we gotta hand out cards, we gotta And he got rid of it because in his mind, most mission statements, they're running a game. They're just playing a game. 'Cause one, nobody really knows what the mission means, right? Like employees like, what's the mission? And they gotta memorise it 'cause some CEO went away, read a book, or God forbid, went to a retreat and then came back and now we gotta laminate and memorise stuff, but we don't know what the hell it means.

Tommy: There was a business I worked at and in the toilet on the wall was like the values. It had like their— the breakdown of the values and the mission of the business in the toilet.

Robert: It was like, that's a load of shit.

Tommy: It was bizarre. But yeah, I always read them. I was like, you haven't— like, just putting them up on the wall isn't having cut through, and I don't feel them or believe them.

Robert: Well, because they're, they're usually about a certain group of people, and they masquerade as being about something else. And I guess what this guy would call it's, it's a racket, right? So when I was growing up in Brooklyn, there was a, there was a candy store, uh, candy shop across the street from me. And what was interesting about this shop is when you went into the shop, there wasn't much candy being sold. So you looked at like the stock and like the shelves were kind of barren. Like, yeah, all right, you had like a couple of like these jelly type candies, maybe some gummy bears and some melted like chocolate bars. And then in the fridge there weren't much drinks. And you think, how does this place stay in business, right? And in the back there were all these video games, and these kids would kind of congregate. So if you can imagine, right, like this room we're in, that door— yeah, that door you walk through, and over there on that side, like where the TV is hanging on the wall, that's where all the candy was, right? And maybe like right here where this table is, that's where the fridge was. But when you went back out here into the alleyway, that was where all the video games were. And the back of the Video Games, there was a door. And if you were hanging out for any period of time and, and you were there month after month, you would kind of notice after a while somebody or a couple of kids would slip through that back door, and then they come out later, and they would make purchases back there in that door. And that was the real business. So the candy shop was just the front. Yeah, there was something that was really going— so it was pretending to be a candy shop, But behind that door, that's what the business truly was. So they were running rackets, and we do that, right? We pretend our intentions are one thing, but behind it, there's, there's something else going on. And, and mission statements is an answer to a question: why do we exist as a company? Or why do I exist? What's my mission? But who's it about? It's about we. It's about I. Well, Peter Drucker, probably one of the greatest business minds, um, of the 20th, and who knows, maybe even though he died in the 20th century, maybe of the 21st century. And that's really impressive cuz we live in a world where business gurus, well, they seem to outnumber the workforce now, don't they? And he said that the purpose of the business is to create and keep a customer. So shouldn't a lot of our intention and effort and focus not be on us and I, but on you, that person who we're looking to create and keep? So he got rid of the mission statement and he worked through something called a Originating Intention. And he defined Originating Intention as something that is so sacred to you, right, that maybe it was the birth of your firstborn, or maybe it's when you had this realization, or you found like what you wanted to do. It's something that you are not just passionate about, it is sacred ground. And therefore you want everybody in the world to have that experience. With no conditions attached. Not like, hey, if you look like me or you have the same belief system or the same political legit— no, everybody without reservation, without condition. And I think when you identify what that is and you operate from that, you get a significance from something that is deep and visceral. You know, like if you cut it with a knife, it'll bleed. Rather than from some extraneous source like what group accepts me or what opinions do I happen to have about this particular issue.

Josh: Is it just repackaging a mission statement? Like, is that in itself like we're tricking us? You know, in the tech world, we're constantly using new terminology to describe what we might be doing, but then you look back in history, it's like, actually, we've done all of this fucking before. Is it really almost just a placebo effect of like, we're going to call it something new as a way of energising and creating relevance to something that's old?

Robert: In part. There are a lot of similarities, but there are two very subtle yet very meaningful distinctions. And the first one is, where is your focus? Mission statements focus again on us. We, we want you. Our purpose is So it's talking about the core group, right? So if, if you read Tribal Leadership by David Logan, really good book, and he talks about different levels of a tribe and a level 3 or a level 4 tribe is driven by level 3 is like, I'm great, you suck. Everyone else around me in my company, they suck. I do all the work. This company wouldn't do well if it wasn't for me. Those people are freaking insidious. That's a whole different subject matter. And level 4 is kind of like, we're great, where the whole company is aligned by something, or nationalism, you know, this country is great, but everybody else, they suck, they're the enemy. And it kind of operates off of those levels of tribe to where on the surface it appears to be really positive, but people are definitely excluded and people are definitely villainized. Originating intention, you're looking 100% out at you. So in a conversation or in a business interaction, my focus is on your benefit. What are your goals and needs and wants and abilities? And I think that's powerful. It's not just powerful ideologically, it's powerful pragmatically. One of the things I do is I work with a group and we train speakers on how to basically not learn how to project your voice and how to stand, but how to eliminate the intrinsic barriers that stop you from just being yourself in front of an audience. And a lot of it's like improv, you know, work, and a lot of it's from the performing arts, and a lot of it's from the business world. And when you choke, you're overthinking. Your mind's on you. Do they like me? Am I saying this correctly? Am I explaining this the right way? Am I being accepted? Is this gonna move my career forward? Am I gonna lose the deal? Am I gonna make the deal? And when you're doing that, you get yourself into one of two states. You overthink to the point where you choke, or you completely panic. So you're not overthinking, now you're not thinking at all. So, and you just freeze. Originating intention, one of the pragmatic things is, if I'm focusing on you, what's your story, what's your need, not how well can I perform, but what do you require from me, well, where do I have no mental focus or reserve to look anymore?

Josh: Inward.

Robert: Where I look inward too much, that's where you get performance anxiety. That's where you screw up. One distinction is where originating intention focuses. The other subtle distinction is it is without condition. So yes, in tech we have a mission, but these are for our people. Remember the old— this is kind of like antiquated, so I think it's starting to flip with a PC and Mac.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: Remember when like, like Mac was taking a serious run at PC and PC was the old guy in suede suit. He was kind of bloated and wasn't with it. And Mac was this young, savvy kid, t-shirts and jeans. And that's kind of like, yeah, if you're a Mac user, we want this for you. But if you're a PC type, you're not one of us. Yeah, see, that's the difference between mission and originating intention. We want it for everybody.

Tommy: I think size and scale is success to a lot of people now? Who, who's someone doing it well? What's— who's a company that does it really well?

Robert: That— well, you're talking to somebody who's in the fitness industry, and, and you're probably going to get me in a lot of trouble. Um, I, I could tell you people who were on the right track to doing it well, um, people who I had high hopes for. But when I see companies who are really doing it well, I see the little guys. Now CrossFit really had its peak, right? And I'm not saying it's going away, but it really peaked. And what it did, you see, CrossFit—

Josh: a trend or a fad?

Robert: Okay, it started a trend. CrossFit is not a trend because in and of itself CrossFit is not where exercise is going to live, but it did provoke a trend which is community-based, culturally oriented exercise.

Josh: Why won't exercise live in CrossFit?

Robert: Because there's going to be somebody else that's going to come out. Because, and, and you have all these different people with different preferences. So you've got people who go to boot camps now, or they're like doing the Tough Mudders or the Spartan races, or it's going to be SoulCycle, or I spoke to 45.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Robert: Or I spoke to some guy who's doing nightclub-based boxing gyms. So a stage comes up and there's smoke, which probably isn't a good idea, but it's kind of cool. And there's like laser shows, and then upstairs there's a bar. So he's like, you know, it's really stupid to try to motivate people to do something they don't want to do. We keep trying to do that and we keep struggling. You know, everybody wants to go to the hottest bar in town. Let's just build underneath in the basement like a boxing class.

Tommy: It sounds very American.

Robert: You do that. Well, he's doing it all over the world, it's not just in America. So So because here's the thing, what is it that people don't have to be motivated to do? People always behave in congruence with their core values. So you don't have to motivate someone to go out for dinner with someone who they're attracted to. You don't have to motivate somebody to go out and play their favourite sport.

Josh: Isn't it status as well? Like status, like going to a dingy gym and lifting weights isn't necessarily great for status, but wearing the best clothes and being seen at a place.

Robert: Status is aligned with significance. It will always be a major driver, and that's good. The question is how you go about elevating your status. Does that serve you? Does that make you happy? Does that make you miserable? And I think when you talk about CrossFit, the best definition I ever got on CrossFit was from Kelly Starrett. Who was one of the all-stars in the CrossFit community. He owns one of the most successful CrossFit studios in San Francisco. And, you know, I was up at his facility doing an interview, kind of video interview, uh, like this. And before, we were just having a cup of coffee. It's really sad, like, because a lot of the greatest conversations you have is when the microphone's off.

Josh: Yeah. And our Jared Subway bit at the beginning before we start recording was pretty good.

Robert: Yeah, we should have recorded that. Or maybe not. Probably not. What a piece of shit. Not you, I'm talking about Jared. Yeah, so Kelly said, you know, the secret to CrossFit— he was going through like at, you know, like in the Civil War, like Gettysburg, and like the rifles they found. He's going through this whole thing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Robert: And where he was going with this was the secret of CrossFit is people belong to each other and for one another. We exist for one another and we belong to each other. And it's like with CrossFit, you walked into an environment of complete and total belief. And it could be your 400th day there, or it could be day 4 and you don't know what the hell you're doing. It's like, day 4, you made it past day 3! Oh my God, Josh, you're amazing! It's like, I'm amazing? You like sit in a cubicle all day long, you come here and this giant beast with a tremendous beard, like, and trust me, the men in CrossFit are even more intimidating. And you get these people in front of you and they're like, you're amazing, you're one of us. It's like you belong to a tribe, man. You know, it's, it's, it's like a, it's like a motorcycle gang with weights.

Josh: It's a religion.

Robert: Yeah, it really is. It's got a lot of the same elements of a mass movement. And when you think about the psychosocial dynamic of that, That was CrossFit in my mind's biggest contribution. So people who are doing that really well, it's the guys who are opening up independently a 6,000-foot personal training studio, and it's like, you know what, there's a big box gym across the street and they're as homogeneous as that other big box gym across the other street. Screw that, I want to be right here in between both of them, right? Let's use their marketing, come in here, because you know what We're more expensive than those guys, and there's a very good reason. But come into our environment of complete and total belief. Let, let us ask questions. Let us listen to you. Let us see not only if we're a good fit for you, let's see if you're a good fit for us. Because we're different than those two guys, and those differences aren't for everyone. But if it's for you, you're absolutely going to love it here. This is going to be one of the most pivotal decisions you ever made in your life. And I'll guarantee you one thing: if you trust us for the first 30 days— because we're not in the business of letting you fail— within 90 days, going to the gym isn't something you're gonna wake up and go, oh, I have to do like the rest of these weirdos we've got training here. You're gonna get up and go, wow, I get to do this today. And that's when you've won the game. Let's have a conversation. Those are the people doing it well.

Josh: You talk about CrossFit being a movement. What happens when it goes from being a movement to the day-to-day grind? Like when you go from, say, with, you know, using the Apple example, you're the one punching up and you're the cool one to them becoming mainstream. What, what can you do?

Robert: Well, you know, McKinsey, the consulting firm, they have an opinion on this. And, you know, they, they talk about the micro mission because I, I think, you know, your brain is always like looking for 3 things. There's 3 things your brain is most responsive to. One is, you know, like, what's rewarding? Like, I've been staring at that popcorn because it's like plain and tasteless and crunchy. Everything I love out of life, right? And, you know, so what's rewarding? And the more important question, maybe the most important, is what's a threat? What's threatening your environment? And the third thing is novelty, right? What's new? What's exciting? Our brain responds to what is new. And the second you habituate to something, where something that was new is now actually commonplace, well, you know what, you get into a little bit of a rut unless you're so intrinsically motivated by it. Like Hopper. Hopper will be in the gym 6 days a week. Now I'm in the gym 4 or 5 days a week. He'll be in the gym 6, maybe 7 days a week.

Tommy: Freak.

Robert: Like, yeah, like, uh, the gym could be like on fire. He's gonna run in there, grab a barbell, run out. He's gonna train in the car park. It's pretty altruistic. I don't know, he might save a couple of front desk people, but he's still gonna train right there. Other people, they can't seem to get themselves to the gym. But there's this micro mission thing where if you're always on a mission together, and the main thing is to get— like, this is our goal, so we're training for this— I, I think a lot of times that nullifies or that decreases the chance of that habituation happening, and also really getting in touch what intrinsically motivates you. And luckily we know what intrinsically motivates you thanks to researchers like Ryan and Deci, the pioneers of self-determination theory. Intrinsic motivation is based on an ARC. An ARC is an acronym, and that acronym stands for autonomy, relatedness, and challenge. Okay, so autonomy simply means that we do things for our reasons, not other people's reasons. So we might say, oh, well, people always ask me for my advice and then they never listen. Assholes. Yeah, you know what, they're not looking for you to tell them what to do. They're using you as a sounding board, and they're not obligated to take your opinion, as exalted as it might be. People have to make a decision for themselves, otherwise they start to feel like their freedoms to choose are being constricted, and that is a threat to survival if you look at it from an evolutionary perspective, right? We're walking down a path and And I'm with my two other cavemen mates, Jeff and George. Jeff and George were very popular caveman names back in the day, as many distinguished archaeologists have now pointed out. And all of a sudden we hear a growl, right? And turn around, where's Jeff? Jeff has been eaten. Holy shit, that's 10% of my group. So I've lost resources, I've lost a mate. Catastrophic. If I don't have the freedom of choice and distinction to say, hey, don't walk down that path, there's a saber-toothed tiger there, find another path, I'm not gonna survive. My tribe is not going to survive. So when you threaten someone's choice, you threaten their existence on a very small level, but it's significant. So people respond with reactance, which is, you know, pretty much piss off, and they don't take your advice. You know, should I break up with him? Yes, you should break up. Why? You're so down on him. Well, I'm just saying that because for one, Jane, he's already married. But you know, so, but we run into that all the time and that's, they come to you for advice and that starts a fight. The second element is relatedness and relatedness is twofold. One, am I in relation to you? Do you trust me? Do you know that my interests are vested in your best interests? And if we're related, it's that whole cliché, that Nobody cares about how much you know until they know how much you care. Well, that's true, but relatedness also means, is what I'm doing related to my highest values? And that's where we get tripped up. Like, remember at camp we did that long confusing exercise? Yeah, why not do a deep immersion exercise at 12 midnight? What could possibly go wrong? But where we talked about conflicting values— do you remember that, that session? And that's really important again because when we say we want something something, but then we do the exact thing that prevents us from having it, it's usually not something we lack. I mean, that happens, but it's not a lack of motivation or willpower or passion. Usually it's— there's something else that if we get what we say we want, we sacrifice something else we really want. So what we do has to be related not just to a goal but to what we value. And then the last component— and people don't understand this— is challenge. You look at kids playing, an element of challenge and struggle is exciting. Like, if a kid's playing video games, the last person they want to play is me because I'm old and I'm out of touch and I suck. I'm gonna bore this kid. This kid's gonna smash me in the face with an Xbox because I'm gonna frustrate them. But they don't want to play against their mate who's so much better than them because they're not gonna get bored, they're gonna get frustrated. So you want to go on the thin line of excitement and frustration, and you want to play against your mate who's just a little bit better than you, because that causes you— so if you're always in an environment like CrossFit where people are struggling to get better because there's friendly competition, you're feeling that challenge. Challenge within the right dose is an antidote for boredom, as long as there's relatedness and autonomy.

Tommy: I feel like these conversations are somewhat a feeling of enlightenment around the bullshit that is thrown at us in this world, like navigating the bullshit online of self-development and exercise and all these things. What I think about is the people who are actually dishing up this advice or specific information or selling courses, and thinking about them as people and how are they doing this? Do they realise what they're doing?

Robert: You know, I think they use a couple of strategies that are very effective, whether they use them deliberately or unwittingly, because a lot of stuff— like, like, I was having a conversation about Gary Vee on the way over here in the, in the Uber, and with the Uber driver, or— yeah, with the Uber driver.

Josh: The Uber driver was hustling.

Robert: He was hustling, and he was in the grind, vlogging. But you know what, I love Gary Vee. Gary Vee taught me a really important lesson because when I first started watching his videos, I was like, fuck, is this wanker— why are you yelling at me? It's like, holy shit, I'm just having a coffee, all right? I'm working, I'm working. What's it to you anyway? How am I hurting your life? And then somebody said something that was kind of interesting. So, well, you know, before you judge Gary Vee Why don't you buy one of his books and read it, then make a decision? I was like, holy shit, yeah, all right. Because my assumption is usually incorrect on a lot of things. So I'm reading the book.

Josh: Which one did you—

Robert: the first one I bought was Crush It.

Josh: Okay, yeah.

Robert: And I got him instantly. And you know why I got it? Because I grew up with Gary Vee. Not Gary Vee himself, but people like Gary Vee. You know, he comes from an immigrant family. He's— he grew up really hard. Family didn't have anything. Then they worked up to having something. He lived in Queens, so he's got this fast, manic personality, not too dissimilar from Brooklynites like myself. And I get the sense this guy really gives a shit about people. There's a sense of urgency, like he really wants to give people tools. The problem is when people try to emulate him without having that intention behind it, and then you're just yelling at people feel like you're not working hard enough. Like, does anybody read a meme that says 'work for it' and go, 'Oh wow, yeah, I'm gonna get my shit together. Yeah, today is going to be a new day'? No. People who read that, you reinforce and perpetuate the same patterns that gets them stuck in the first place. And the only people who go 'yeah' are the people who are already there. But what you get to actually do— and this is, this is a great strategy when you want to create a mass movement— is you tell people something like, only 5% of the population is gonna resonate with this. It's gonna— because they suck, they're not willing to work for it, they don't have what it takes, they're making bad decisions, they can't afford to lose weight or join a gym, but they have an iPhone. You know what type of person that is. But you're not like them, you're like us.

Josh: And that sounds a lot like the political landscape.

Robert: Oh my God, instantly it's like I'm a 5%er. And the guy who's writing this, like, the picture of a Lamborghini— like, I know one of these guys who does these success talks and teach—

Josh: you don't know Tai Lopez, do you?

Robert: No, it's not him, but literally the guy struggles keeping his lights on. Yeah, I'm like, come on, mate, what are you doing? Like, people are not— they're not the enemy. They're not— what about this? What about trying to identify what are the constraints Like somebody really wants this over here, but they're over here. What's stopping them from having that? And what executable strategies can you give someone where they can utilise that? So if you're telling somebody what to do, first of all, you're not a coach. Yeah, because that is not like— like, get your shit together is not a coaching strategy. Show me one peer-reviewed piece of research. Show me like one like school of thought on motivational interviewing or, um, appreciative inquiry or any type of, of, of evidence-based coaching strategy that utilises that.

Josh: What, what is Gary Vee then? What area is he playing in if he's not a— he's not a coach then?

Robert: He's an advisor, right? Like, I know, I know what I'm doing, right? I've done this, here's what I've done. Because if you look through Crush It, What do you have? You have the— here's, here's exact steps. Now, Crush It was written a long time ago. I've read a few of his books since, but what I liked about it is like, I do this: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, rinse, repeat. Now, now here's the thing that's critical. And when I take a look at doing anything really well, like he's a social media expert, I am by far not, but I look at it in terms of craft because Yeah, I have a friend of mine and he says like, the worst thing that can happen to you, you ever have those days, like, and as a presenter you have them where for whatever reason you wake up and you're just crushed, you know, no pun intended. Right? Like maybe you took a flight and it was delayed, so you had to wake up at 5:00 AM to speak at 7:00 AM at a breakfast, but you didn't get to your hotel room until 2:00 and you just have the worst day. That's not the worst thing that can happen to you. Here's the worst thing that can happen to you in any domain of life. You get up and you, for whatever reason, you have an amazing day. It's magical. You have a magical first date, right? You have a magical, um, sales presentation. You have a magical meeting and you have no idea why. And you have no tools to reproduce that. And you struggle because you don't have a strategy. So in my mind, craft has 3 elements. It has training, development, and tools, right? Training is what exactly do I do? What's the strategy? What's the process? What are the steps? Tools are what do I have at my disposal to do that, right? 10 ways to create a successful podcast, but I need a microphone, right? I need technology. Otherwise, not gonna have a very good podcast. Even though I know exactly how to do it. But then there's also this being aspect, which is development. Development is not the ongoing result of training. That, that, that's why people like are so cynical sometimes because you go to a company meeting and they tell you what to do, training, don't give you any tools. So they tell you what, but they don't discuss the why or the how. Knowing what to do without how to do it is irrelevant. Would you agree? And, They say it louder. So if you don't get it, well, let's sit you down again, go through the same 140 slides, and I'll just say it more emphatically. And if you still don't get it, I'm just gonna have to replace you. Where what's missing is the how, which is tools, and the why, knowing your why. So when you have someone who gives you process and who gives you tools, that's very valuable, but you need other elements. And a lot of the elements are coaching-based, which is not a matter of what you pull in, but what you have the skill set to extract from another person through inquiry rather than advocacy.

Tommy: Yeah, it's having the business model that a lot of these coaches and, you know, motivational people out there have created is, here's what I did, now try and do that. Because it's like the diet, get on keto.

Robert: Why?

Tommy: 'Well, it worked for me, it'll work for you.' And it's, it's hard. I, I just wonder, these people who are at the top doing this, coaching the coaches, if they're legitimately sitting back and going, 'Fuck, they've all— we've got them, we conned them.' Or it's like, 'Well, it did work for me,' and they justify it to themselves as like, 'It's okay because it worked for me.' Yeah, I'm optimistic.

Robert: I, I think, you know, you do have these people who you know, I had a conversation with one such lady where she, she has a lot of followers on Instagram. I think it's like something like— I'm not gonna say who she is, obviously. She has like 100,000 followers. She wrote something in one of her posts about, you know, she's in Australia, and she's like, oh, you know, I went through my Level 3, Level 4. And I'm like, oh, coaching and personal training certification. I know a little bit about that. Okay. Yeah. So I was like, who did you choose? Because, because one of the companies that's— is a company I co-founded. So I was like, did you choose that? And if so, why? And as I started speaking to her, she was answering these rounds like, what did you learn? What were you looking to learn when you first chose a certification? And what were the skill sets that you thought would be most relevant? And she's like, I don't learn from certs. I learn from what my clients teach me. And she's answering. I was like, oh, you've never gone through a single course in your life.

Tommy: Life.

Robert: You just have a lot of images on Instagram.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: So you get that, it's like, you know what, whether you know you're conning people or not, you're a con.

Josh: Yeah. What do you think of fake it till you make it?

Robert: Well, hold on, I just want to say that I think most people who are out there coaching have good intentions.

Tommy: Yeah.

Robert: And some of them are amazing, but there's a lot of white noise. And of course there are some of those people who know what they're doing And it's because I've worked with some of those people, and you, you go backstage and they're horrible, and it's like, oh my God, I need to get out of here. Fake it till you make it. I, I, you know, I, I think there's a level of inauthenticity there, and I, I think it's a matter of how you frame that, because it's one of those things that could be very good very damaging. And it's like, okay, I'm gonna pretend like I'm here. But what you're actually doing is you're drawing a very definitive distance between where you think you should be and where you actually are. And that can make— that can cause you to compare yourself to other people. That can cause you to be very discouraged and feel like a complete and total failure because you your identity is not based on what you do daily, but where you should be someday that you're clearly not. So that's the danger. Where there could be some benefits is getting back to what you were talking about with identity. The thing most people fall back on is, well, that's just not who I am. I would try that, but I don't do that thing, you know. I just don't dance at weddings. And, you know, meanwhile, you're the groom. Okay, well, that's, that's fair. And you tell yourself this story, limiting beliefs, until it becomes like— what is a belief though? When you say what's a belief, it's something, it's a thought that you have had so emphatically and so frequently you no longer realise that that's just a thought. It's just the way the world occurs to you. It's just what is in reality. Meanwhile, there's so many variables to that. So you tell yourself this storey based on identity, and I think fake it till you make it— one version of that is pretend you're being casted for a role in a film where you're the person you want to be. So it's not like I'm gonna pretend I'm there already. Don't go rent a Lamborghini for a day or like post that shit on Facebook when you're driving like a Mini. First of all, nothing's wrong with a Mini. Me, alright? Second, it's— you're telling a lie to yourself that's damaging, and you're misrepresenting yourself. But rather, focus more on the day-to-day behaviors. And what gets in the way of the behaviors, again, is that identity-based story. This is who I am, this is who I'm not. Well, what if you got cast in a role in a film to play the exact type of person who you most want to be? And there was a certain way this character interacted with people, there was a certain way this character thought. At least what that does is it dissociates you from that identity story. Well, that's not me. No kidding. Like, like, you know, like Johnny Depp didn't walk around thinking he was freaking Willy Wonka, did he? No, he knew he was playing a role.

Tommy: He's pretty weird, Johnny Depp.

Robert: I love Johnny Johnny Depp, but that film was scary. Um, but, uh, I would love to go out drinking with Johnny Depp and Tim Burton one night. Yeah, just putting that out there. And, um, but, but what it does is when you take a look at different schools of acting, right? Like, Stanford Meisner was a famous acting coach, and I loved his philosophy on what acting was because he didn't really believe that acting was acting at all. Like, when you see A-list actor, what they're really good at doing is living truthfully in an imaginary circumstance. So it's like, okay, so I'm on a spaceship and there's this alien, like, what the hell is that? But if there really was that situation where I was on a spaceship and like, I don't know, like something exploded out of Sigourney Weaver, this is exactly how I would respond. Which is probably like piss myself and pass out unconscious, hence why I'm never cast in that role. And that would be me. So I'm not pretending, I'm really responding.

Josh: So the situation's imaginary, you're changing the context.

Robert: Yeah, exactly. But I'm bringing me to that. Yeah, not, not this made-up character. So if you could disassociate from the limiting storey long enough to engage in the behaviors, well, what starts to happen You start to evaluate those behaviors. We talked about cognitive dissonance. Let me define that. It's the emotional duress that ensues when you're trying to hold two different worldviews in mind. Eventually, you want to— you want to move towards some progressive level of consistency. So when you're engaging in those behaviors, guess what? Your beliefs start to shift around the behaviours you're engaging in. So if you're using fake it till you you make it in the context of, I was just cast in a film. 6 months from now I'm gonna play this role. So every day I'm gonna get up and be that character. I don't know, what is that, method acting? The Stanislavski crew can tell me more about that. You'll start to interact with people and engage with people and behave in certain ways that are congruent with what you want. I think there's an immediate reward because it's not like the person you wanna be is like this real negative cynical asshole who insults people all the time. I mean, although that might be fun to play for a while.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: But it would probably be someone who is a, a not, not a different version, but the best version of yourself. Yeah. So you're probably gonna get responsiveness to that instantly. That's very rewarding. So it, it's this ongoing immediate reward that facilitates the behaviors. That helps to shift those beliefs.

Tommy: I think that's when I've used fake it till you make it, and I don't use it anymore. I don't feel like— I think I'm in more alignment with the person who I wanted to be and where I wanted to get to, and at the time I wasn't there. But I think when you are using it in a genuine approach and it actually aligns with the person that you then become from any of the faking it, or I want to be this and then I start to live in alignment with that, and then you get past it. I think people take fake it till you make it to another level.

Josh: Yeah.

Robert: And you know, like, I think you create who you are. It's just like people be like, well, be yourself. Well, geez, how many layers of stories? It's like the film Inception. How many levels do I go through till I get to that? It's like, don't, don't go out and find yourself, create yourself.

Tommy: Yeah, be yourself. For a person that's been, you you know, beaten as a kid is, is maybe not who they want to be, or that like what that has shaped of them isn't what they want.

Robert: No, and you get that conflict, right? Like when I met Mitchell, it was the scariest situation in my life.

Tommy: He's still back in the gym.

Robert: Yeah, this was my first mentor because there was this kid who really wanted to be a trainer, who wanted to stay there because I felt safe And I felt like I finally belonged in a role, and I didn't want to grow because that was the only time in my life I ever felt safe. And this guy's telling me, no, you gotta move into management. So he actually, he actually fired me, um, one time because he asked me if I wanted to move into management. I said no. And he's like, well, you know, in this company there's two directions, up or out. And he's like, Sorry, Bob. Used to call me Bob. It's like 19, called me Bob. It's like, all right. He's like, sorry, Bob, you're done. So he sacks me, and then I'm just— I'm leaving the gym. I don't know what to do. It's a total state of shock. Like, that's my whole world. Then he comes up to me, he goes, hey, Bob. And he really sounds just like that to this day. He goes, I heard a rumour that you're recently unemployed. Sorry about that. Bad break. I said, I'll tell you what though, I've got a lead for you. Tomorrow we're interviewing for a head trainer position. Being that you probably aren't doing much, why don't you come in? You got nothing to lose.

Tommy: Fuck, there's the mind games on Bob.

Robert: He was not gonna let me sit back and opt out of life. I mean, Mitchell is like, he tries harder at life. So I, he's, he's a guy that by age 30, he was like arrested like 26 times. That's not why I chose him as a mentor, but he's someone who went through— because a lot of people was like giving me advice. It's like, you don't understand my world, you know? Like, at 5 years old, you go to a pediatrician, so what do you want to be when you grow up? Like, for me, alive, mate. Alive. That's all I wanted to be. So a lot of people, I couldn't relate to them. So Mitchell, I felt like, okay, he can kind of get where I'm coming. He didn't have the same experiences, but shit, did he have a series of intense experiences of his own. But after coming through all of that, I never met anyone who tried so hard at life. And that inspired me because he wasn't this perfect model. He was this guy that really wanted something. He strived to be better every day. But along the way he had these colossal fuck-ups that made him human and relatable, and you could trust this guy.

Josh: Imperfection is life, right?

Robert: We are all perfectly imperfect. And if, and if your imperfections are you don't respect people, or you're oppressive on people because you feel like if they don't live the way you live they shouldn't have what you have, well, fuck those people. I have no patience for those people. But if your imperfections are, you know what, it's been, it's been a journey and it's been complicated. And you've like stared into the abyss and like, like Jung said, long enough for the abyss to stare back. And you're really striving, yet, you know, sometimes you just don't get shit right because you're a complicated person. I trust and I resonate with those type of people more. And I've seen those type of people never announce their virtues or attributes and really behave altruistically so much more than the people I'm scared of, or the people every 5 minutes tell you the virtues they possess. Like, they tell you how important integrity is in this company— all right, I'm quitting. Or they tell you about how honest they are— yeah, I'm terrified. Yeah, you know, it's usually the, like, dysfunctional and the perfectly imperfect individuals that I resonate with. And I've seen some inspiring behaviours from.

Josh: Yeah, Bobby Cappaccio, I can see why you're friends with Harps, because one thing you've got in common is there's no bullshit going on in what you're saying, mate. Thanks for being on The Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if anyone wants to send us an email. Where are you off to for the rest of the day? What are you, what are you doing now?

Robert: I will be writing and working in coffee shops.

Josh: Okay, is Starbucks, is Starbucks like the place to go in LA, or are we scum if we go and work out of the Starbucks?

Robert: You're scum. You're total scum. People will throw things at you, you know, to support local businesses.

Tommy: Perfect.

Josh: The American experience. Oh yeah. Thanks, Bobby.