Who dares wins

Tommy: Wait a minute! Crossface, the Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Josh: It's a Daily Talk Show episode 185. I'm coming, uh, from, uh, Santorini right now. Yeah, what's going on, TJ?

Tommy: Mate, congratulations. Um, for being in Santorini. No, congratulations, mate. I'm coming to you from St. Kilda. No, congratulations truly for 180 eps. It's a, it's a nice round number.

Josh: Did I say 180 or did I just say 185?

Tommy: I can't remember.

Josh: I say 180.

Tommy: It's very early for me and late for you, but either way, it is episode 180 and 180. It's a milestone. We're so close to 200. And I said to you last week, imagine if this is the week that undoes us. Not even— it's not even a word, but—

Josh: Well, what you should be— you shouldn't be congratulating me for my location, just like we've discussed how you feel a bit weird when people— I don't know if we spoke about it on the show, but people congratulating you for being in the newspaper.

Tommy: Oh yeah, or for having a viral video go semi-viral. It's, um, yeah, it feels weird getting congratulated on that.

Josh: I don't think I should be congratulated from where I am, but I should be congratulated on finding internet right now that works.

Tommy: Yeah, how did you do it?

Josh: Oh, well, we just got a 4G SIM card, so I'm just running off that, and I'm having to use my phone to speak to you rather than the computer.

Tommy: Oh, it sounds good. And yeah, I mean, you're on a small island and it's pretty far away from me right now. Fuck, I love technology. Geez.

Josh: What's the latest on your 7-Eleven?

Tommy: Oh, it's blown up. It went viral on LinkedIn. All that says is just there's a bunch of coffee fiends who are overworked.

Josh: And we're just time wasters.

Tommy: Yeah, I've had a few people make some videos in like response. One guy, poor guy, I actually just don't want to give it any oxygen. This one guy was like, um, uh, so this— I saw this guy make a video and I'm gonna debunk it or something like this. He's like, um, he made a video about how a $2 fits into the $1. I like— I'm so tempted to write, dude, did you even watch my video? Because the main point—

Josh: You should actually tell him, do you know what you should do? You should say an iPhone will fit in your ass if you try and see if he'll try and debunk it.

Tommy: Oh, so he kind of just points out that, I mean, it was like, if you watch the video, the main purpose is a $3 fits in the $2, not the $2 fits in the $1. That was just like a little side thing. And so he goes and debunks this $2 fitting into the $1.

Josh: Cool.

Tommy: Good work. Good work, bro.

Josh: What was his— what was the industry that he was working in?

Tommy: I, you know what, I don't— I'm apprehensive of going onto these people's profiles. He had some like weird status. Um, it didn't say his job title, but I didn't want to go on because it will tell him that I've been on his profile and I'll seem like a big creep. He's probably listening to the podcast. Shout out.

Josh: I have all mine, I have it, um, hidden so people, people can't see when I look at their profile.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, he, yeah. So this is the, he, this is the name of the video. So Tommy Jacket thinks 7-Eleven are scamming him. This video reply points out the flawed logic that led to his outrage. Pretty sure he hasn't watched my video because he then tagged the project in it and said, the project, did you not even bother to try this?

Josh: Maybe I'll jump on there pretending to be his boss and saying, hey Darren, you did this within business hours, don't bother coming in on Monday. No, I was like, yeah, it's— yeah, that's interesting.

Tommy: Productive with Benko board. Some weird job title. Yeah, that's weird.

Josh: Maybe he's one of those, a Benko board. It sounds like there's a whole industry of people who, I don't think this is what it is, but when I heard that title, it sounds like the people that go to conferences and draw. I don't know if you've ever seen them, but they have like a big, it's not whiteboards, they're big pieces of card and they'll do like these graphics, like sort of illustrations as the, speakers are talking and then at the end people can come up and take photos like a live infographic.

Tommy: Oh yeah. James said to— shout out to James for getting us, getting Josh onto Reddit and Josh becoming the most annoying person on earth while he's on holiday on a tropical island. You've ruined his holiday, James.

Josh: The funny thing is that you're— I love your pushback that you've been giving to Reddit and my relentlessness and keeping on bringing it up is one of my favourite things. Just them being like, when should we do the episode tomorrow? Oh, how about this time? And I'm like, yeah, man, Reddit's great too.

Tommy: And what did I write back to you? I said, Santorini's even better.

Josh: No, well, the funny thing is you point to straight, mate, you're like, looking forward to get a strategy in place on this one, which is like, hold your fucking horses. The Reddit is taking off, the subreddit, even though I'm one of the only people posting. But we've had a couple of, a couple of posters. It's great.

Tommy: It is good. James also said to me just around this, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts around the 7-Eleven thing. And this is maybe the third kind of thing that's gone a bit nuts for me. But he said, how many—

Josh: We've had the 1000 Steps, Obike, and now 7-Eleven.

Tommy: Um, he, it was, it was a rhetorical question, someone. He said, how many of these do you need to do before you realise it's not luck? But if I, if we take that away and, and it's not based on my experiences, but it's like proving to yourself that you can actually do something in anything you do. It's like, at what point do you become convinced internally that you're either actually good at something or you're capable of it. It's— I think it's a weird thing, like gaining confidence in something you're doing.

Josh: Has it changed having 3 wins? Has it changed your perspective of the whole sort of genre, the style of video?

Tommy: Oh, I think so. My perspective is that it's not that hard to do. Like it's been one a year, but I haven't actually tried hard to do what I've done 3 years in a row.

Josh: Well, you've always known when it was going to take off, like before 7-Eleven, you were ramping up, you were ready for being, you know, having it appear in mainstream media and shit like that.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. And any of these ideas that have done well, Except for the, um, Thousand Steps one, because you weren't around then. We weren't hanging out then, but I, like, I totally, it's like I see something happening and I kind of have this feeling about it and it's worked. And so it's like, maybe I'm convinced that I know that when I have that feeling, I'll be able to see it. But you could totally reverse engineer this stuff if that's what you want. It's not exactly what I want.

Josh: Um, well, it's— I think that the risk of it is, is that it could potentially be similar to, say, you— the YouTube algorithm. So, you know, I had my digital minimalism video that did well, and then I was like, oh, now if I create one that's on this, I know that I'm going to get X amount of views. And you can start— like, I remember I was strategizing of like, if I did a series on how to podcast and I timed them around this Like, and I don't know, I think that the balance there is to keep creating stuff that you love and that you're interested in. And so, because the reality is if you want to get into the news, you could do like that wacko dude, remember who would go to AusOpen and did the Grand Prix? Yeah, the crazy dude with long hair, years and years ago, it would have been the early 2000s. He was known as like the public pest.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: And he would like, he jumped out on the track So it's like there's lots of ways to get on in the media or, you know, spoken about, but it's finding the interesting and quirky angles, right?

Tommy: Yeah, I guess what I like about this is some— it's something that I actually was interested in for quite a while. And so same with the other stuff, but you get— each time you get another shot positioning yourself as, um, as somebody. So at least they refer to me as filmmaker and I'm doing the thing that I actually love doing. And so it's, yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting to see how people react to these things and how it pushes people's buttons. And I don't think I'm not in the game of just wanting to push people's buttons nonstop, but I am in the, you know, the game of making impact with what we're creating.

Josh: So.

Tommy: It'll be interesting to take some of these and go, what's something really super meaningful to approach, to apply this to? And it might get half, half the engagement, but it'll be much more impact and life-changing for somebody. I don't know.

Josh: I think that I would potentially get gun-shy on doing, like, if I was doing, if I was the specifically the 7-Eleven one, you have to be ready for a little bit of criticism and people, people having a go. Was it what you expected?

Tommy: You know, the thing, it's like flying so fast. There's actually some good points that people make out. And then I— my approach is, come on, guys, this is fucking pretty light. Like, this is— you can clearly see I'm not that fucking serious about all of this.

Josh: Yeah. And that's the difference, isn't it? It's the vibe that you're bringing to it.

Tommy: Yeah. This because people bring this like serious vibe and I'm like, oh, all right, mate.

Josh: Like Darren on LinkedIn.

Tommy: Yeah, Darren on LinkedIn. So it's been an interesting op, but I can't wait to the one that we— something that we do. We'll get another one next year for sure. You and I, and hopefully you'll be sitting there next to me on the project. It'll be a bit more fun.

Josh: So what's been the weirdest interaction that you've had from the success of the video?

Tommy: Nah, nothing that weird. Oh, actually, I told you, I read it out. That guy who worked at 7-Eleven.

Josh: Yeah, you told me about the 7-Eleven guy. Yeah, he was abusing me.

Tommy: But, um, I have actually got— I went in this morning, I was like, fuck, I hope this guy doesn't see me as some— recognise you, recognise me as someone who hates 7-Eleven. But then again, I am a regular customer, so he's probably— he can't quite get it. He's like, that guy looks so much like that guy who's trying to take us down, but he's here every day, so I don't quite get it.

Josh: Um, the, um, yeah, it's I think it's fun. I think it's good. Like, it's good to have that creative, um, like it's— you're flexing a muscle.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I mean, look, you're coming up with an idea and then building it around it.

Tommy: Yeah. And I was talking to Amy yesterday, and I don't like just banging on about 7-Eleven with you, or, you know, for making it feel like this is a 7-Eleven show, but from an idea— yeah, from an ideas perspective I let that idea settle and I didn't act on it in a long time. And you could look at it as A, I was lazy or B, I just internally didn't feel that it was the right time. And I was watching a video of me sitting in my office back in almost a year ago. It was like the 11th month of the year. And I was talking to the camera about 7-Eleven. And the coffee stuff.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so it's like, that's nearly 12 months that I didn't act on it, but within the 12 months it's bubbled away and become so much bigger than it was. And so I act on it now.

Josh: When does the rabbit hole video come out?

Tommy: Yeah, I've got to work on that this week. I want to get it done before I come overseas.

Josh: So basically, for people who don't know, you sort of, you typically do one video, which is the, the, what would you call it? It's the, it's the one that sparks the interest.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then you follow it up with a narrative, and because you've got a bunch of footage, like you and I captured some stuff of you trying— getting me to, you know, test the 7-Eleven coffee. You've got all these different bits.

Tommy: Yeah, so I build out like segments and I string them together with the narrative, is essentially. And those segments can do well on their own, which is actually— I, you know what, I, I actually didn't— I, I stumbled across that kind of approach with the Obike one. I made that one. I made that Obak one and showed you. You're like, yeah, great, fucking put that out. And then it blew up.

Josh: And then the other one sort of is, but I'm more proud of the other one. Yeah.

Tommy: I'm proud of the longer ones because it has, they're harder and it takes more time to sort of craft the storey within it because they are longer. So they're not just like little bites that you see on a radio station website. But yeah, but it's interesting. So, what in terms of like letting an idea sit, what do you think? Is there—

Josh: Yeah, I think that probably, I probably think that most people let ideas sit for too long. I think that more people have a sitting problem than they do an executing too much problem. And I think that probably if you had done the video 6 months ago, you probably would have had a similar response. Yeah, but, um, you know, it's all a timing thing. Like, you felt like it was right, so it was right. And so I think that, um, if you actually worked out— if you combined the thinking time and then worked out what it actually required of you, you wouldn't have had to do nearly as much thinking time in as what you actually did.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah, it's so funny though, because when you actually do win on something you have been sitting on for a long time, where you go, the idea was strong the whole entire time, or is it the timing of it that was— that made it stronger? And so you don't know. It's like James's question, how many of these do you need to do before you, you realise that it's not just luck? I don't know.

Josh: Yeah, well, I mean, Ryan John is a good example of someone who does that. Collective Noun, who I've mentioned, it's— there is a, not a formula, but there is an approach to looking at the content you're creating. It's about leading with who is the audience. I think that if we look at Obike, we look at 7-Eleven, the reason why that's done really well, you know, those, those videos, is because there's already a connected audience that are going to be interested in it.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. And then I, I have that issue and it's, and it's, it's just in my head and it's around not liking to sort of, um, be dictated or not liking to dictate my content based around that, which is, is probably just my pushback. It's like when you were strategizing away, Matt D'Evila even talks about it on his podcast about he doesn't like you know, playing to that algorithm. But, um, you know, I think that it, it serves a purpose.

Josh: I think that it's, um, the— I guess the answer is the algorithm isn't the audience, but unfortunately the audience is sometimes dictated by the algorithm. So I think that it's become, it's become a part of the equation. So You know, like if, if everyone is watching, and even, um, you know, Seth Godin has spoken about this, he's been really stubborn about things and said, I'm never going to do this because this isn't what I do. And there's— and he's missed out on a lot of opportunities because of that. And, um, so I think that it's sometimes worthwhile realising whether you're wrong or the market's wrong. Yeah, and, um, because there's a bunch of— it's like with the podcasting thing, I could have— there's— and I've spoken about so much about podcasting and sort of feeling like it's— it feels too late. And Rob Ward from Quad Lock would be, um, probably punching his steering wheel right now because he's already told me off about talking about it. But, um, the— yeah, like, it's— you can't let that get in the way. You can't let— I think that if you start playing into, well, I'm not going to listen to what the audience wants, I think that you, you risk allowing your ego to get in the way.

Tommy: Yeah, I think it's good to have an external person. So for instance, I would like, um, for you when you get back to be kind of throwing these things out that you're seeing, and, and it's like the ones I might— and I won't do all of them, but it's like the ones that actually catch my interest, because that's, I think, what needs to be for my kind of style of filmmaking. I need a real fascination and interest in the topic to actually pursue it.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But if there's someone like you who is really great at being strategic and, and seeing the trends and looking on these sort of sites where you can see the keywords that are being searched, it's like, I actually like that idea of someone going, what if, what about this? Hey, cheque out this.

Josh: Yeah. It's like, okay, I think there's the opportunity to have more cracks at it, right? Yeah, like rather than it being something that you, you know, do once a year, I could imagine you and I doing every single month having a video that has that sort of interest.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's exciting.

Josh: Look at Christian Hull. Look at what Christian Hull does with his, um, you know, sort of, uh, focusing on categories. So it's, you know, like people— it's that sort of like, you know, shit nurses say. Type content. Like, he's done, yeah, over a dozen of those now, and they all do tremendously well.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I'll tell you, but at the same time, I'm sure if you ask him, he probably says that that's not the only content that he wants to— like, if he had to just create that content and nothing else, he'd probably be bored out of his brain.

Tommy: Yeah, I think you do certain things— like, for instance, the— like I was saying, the rabbit hole one like the longer storey is the one that actually fulfils me more than the small bite-sized thing that goes viral.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's because that's where it's like, that's me flexing because I find them hard. I find it like challenging. The smaller bits are easy. I could pump— I pump that out in like an hour, you know, an hour and a half of editing.

Josh: And so it's a different type of storytelling as well, right? It's like the difference between a very simple idea, like what the project wants to communicate or what news.com.au want to talk about. And if you look at what, um, you know, the Herald Sun article and that original video from like the year prior or whatever, it was such a basic video. So that's the interesting part of it too, is that like you can bring that other element to it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Which is, you know, an extended production.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, without it being too hard because it's what we're talking about, production.

Josh: Um, I've gone down a rabbit hole. I've posted it on our—

Tommy: right, is it going to get on— is it going to get on the project?

Josh: Uh, it's not gonna— it's purely— it's, it's no— it's not production on my, on my side of things. It's me consuming older content. Aussie TV. Bree and I, um, before you and I got on this call, we thought we'd see what's been happening on Australian TV, and we went to the 10Play website. Oh yeah. And I saw that, uh, Changing Rooms is coming back.

Tommy: What was it? That's— what is it, just like you renovate— people renovating each other's rooms, or—

Josh: Yeah, mates renovate each other's rooms or whatever, and it's— a lot of times it ends in disaster.

Tommy: Yeah. But Darren, Darren just stole the stripper pole in the middle of Brian's room. Mate, I've got a girlfriend, she's going to be—

Josh: what is this? Exactly. And she's not a stripper. Yeah. The— But who might be able to use it? Remember Suzy Wilkes? That was a bad transition. I was really excited by the idea that Suzy Wilkes— I was, as a kid, I was a massive fan.

Tommy: No, 10 Years Ida.

Josh: No, mate, you're thinking of Who Dares Wins. Yeah, that's—

Tommy: I'm thinking— Oh, sorry, I have opened up the nostalgia alert.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, you fucked it. There's, there's two, there's two different, um, articles I've posted. Okay, one is for Changing Rooms, one is for Suzy Wilkes. Yes, yes, I was upset when I was a kid. I remember my cousin worked with her. My cousin worked at Double TFM, the radio station. Oh yeah, and she was friends with Suzy. I remember she knew for a fact that she'd had a boob job, and I thought that was a 10-year-old, I was like blown away by this fact. And so, Changing Rooms became my favourite show. That's the classic.

Tommy: You had no idea what even a boob job inside was.

Josh: Yeah, I didn't know what was really— I didn't even know what was going on. You heard there was a bit of hype around it. Suzy's not doing it. Yeah, exactly. I got behind the hype. But no, the new host is going to be Natalie Bassingthwaite.

Tommy: Ah, interesting. I mean, you've got to do something after a music career. I think that's what happens. You know, the thing about TV in Australia is like they just recycle everybody who's previously done something there. They just—

Josh: why can't they bring back Mike Whitney and Tania Zayeta then?

Tommy: Mate, I'd be happy with that.

Josh: Who Dares Wins. If— Have you seen, like, everyone's got to go to reddit.com/r/thedailytalkshow. I'm going to add eventually a link from thedailytalkshow.com, but until then you're going to just have to find it. Anyway, there's a, um, a video that I posted which is an episode from Who Dares Wins.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: And the, the an— Like, how animated the presenters were, like Mike Whitney, and just how he was like This is actually original Tommy Jacket. Like, you've had a shift in the last 4 years of being excitable. Hey, it's Tommy Jacket here. We're out on the street to something a little bit more sort of mellow. You were actually primed for '90s TV presenting.

Tommy: I know, because I used to go and do training, TV presenting courses, and there's still TV presenting courses around. Pity that there's no TV presenting roles actually going. And so you're training for something that isn't existent. It should be YouTube classes now where you actually learn how to talk to a camera like a human and edit your own videos and tell stories. So it's like I actually spent thousands of dollars learning how to be Jules Lund. But then—

Josh: What were some of the tips? Like, give us an insight into what it takes to be a presenter. What were some of the things you'd do?

Tommy: Smile. Into the shot, which I use some of these now because they are kind of good skills.

Josh: How do you smile into the shot?

Tommy: So you say, you know, 3, 2, stop counting and smile and then go. So it's like, you know, so you just smile into it.

Josh: So just as you're about to start, you get going.

Tommy: You know what it is? It's about knowing the energy. And if you're at a funeral and you're presenting live from a funeral, don't do that.

Josh: But it's like— Don't smile into the shot.

Tommy: Don't smile into the shot. But at least know the energy that you're bringing to the shot as soon as, you know, the camera is rolling. That was one of them. What else? What else? Oh, what else is there? I mean, I learned most of my stuff from radio because half the time it's like, it's like, you know, the practise is what made me be able to it's like I'm thinking ahead of what I'm actually saying. And so combining those two where you actually can connect your words to something that— and be in the moment. And that came from radio, talking a lot. But there was nothing much that they actually taught other than sort of smiling and bringing the energy.

Josh: Do you think we try and apply too much sort of forethought to these types of things or apply like, oh yeah, this is a strategy Like when it comes to, say, people like Eddie Maguire, who is, you know, a Melbourne personality, who— there's all these myths about these types of people of like, yeah, they just, you know, if they'll remember your name for, you know, 5 years and they'll be able to do this and that. Do you think, like, are these just myths that have just eventually made it their way, or do you think it's actually a required thing to be a good Presenter.

Tommy: Nah, I think the successful people have been asked these, so they've tried to break down what they do. And these are some of the things that they might do, but they come so naturally. So there is a fine line between the period of time that you're an amateur to actually becoming successful or, you know, I guess landing a few roles or whatever it be. But then those things will be weeded out by then and you, you'll just be doing you. Because that's the only way you can survive is when you're doing you. And so, like, if I think about what I do, I can't like, and I'm not looking at myself as some successful person, but imagine me trying to tell people, it's like, yeah, you know, like speak to everybody, like show interest in lots of people. And it's like, imagine trying to tell someone how to be me and then them do it for them, it's not going to work. So you can, and you might take some little elements like the name thing. I mean, the name thing isn't going to get you, isn't going to be the thing that makes you successful. Like remembering someone's name. It's a, there's plenty of celebrities that could give a fuck about anybody and they don't care about your name and they're talented.

Josh: Who've done pretty well. Yeah, they've done really well. I think that there's some keystone habits, I guess, that can help. There's a book that I read called, um, uh, Never Eat Alone, and, um, that one's a hard one. It sort of suggests this idea that every lunch should basically be like a meeting. It's like, all right, always have— like, isn't that— that's pretty full-on.

Tommy: It's, it's really full-on. It's, um, that guy's got separation anxiety.

Josh: Yeah, it's like people who have read How to Win Friends and Influence People. You know that they've read it because they ask you lots of questions. Yeah. It's almost a bit manic, like they can't tell you anything about them and they're just sort of, they're treating you like you're a psychology patient.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I think some, I think for some people they need to go through that and it's a way for them to learn and fail and learn and fail to find their feet and find their unique voice. I know I've done stuff in the past that have probably been like, ah, it's a bit cringe and it's not what I do now, but I've kind of, I feel more, you know, in my own self and in alignment with who I really am when I'm doing like, you know, on camera and stuff than I ever have. But that's just because I'm older and I've actually just kept chipping away.

Josh: You know you a bit better.

Tommy: And I know myself.

Josh: I know who you are as well.

Tommy: And I know myself better. And so that's the annoying thing, right? I think it's like some people who just are naturally amazing at sort of being themselves on camera. And if your goal is to be a presenter or whatever it be, and for some people that will take years and for some it comes really easily and early. And so it's like for me it just didn't, I don't think.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It's, I just think there's such a massive difference between what's on TV now Yes. And TV. But the thing is, I actually think if you watch Who Dares Wins that I posted in our subreddit. Yeah. It's so punchy. It's like a really good pace to it. And Mike Whitney's got a real good vibe. I think it's a solid show. I want to see it come back.

Tommy: I loved it. They used to knock around the street, just, you know, hey, mate, if you do this, I'll give you $20.

Josh: All right.

Tommy: Yeah, no worries. So, everyone seems to be more Australian.

Josh: Did you actually see them on the street?

Tommy: Never. I think they're probably up in Sydney a lot of the time.

Josh: Yeah. Hey, where we're staying right now, we've got a spa and we've moved rooms once. Basically, for the first 2 nights we're in one spot and they said on the final night we'll move you to like the sunset room so you can see the the sunset better. So we thought that was cool. But, um, the, the thing is that the— they also said that there was a bit more privacy in this, um, in this spa.

Tommy: Yeah, great.

Josh: And so with the, the spa that we were in previously, it was sort of, um, it was lit up and it felt like people could sort of see. We were sort of up a top on a roof, but it felt like people could sort of see down onto us.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So we, um, you know, we're sort of a bit conscious of that. But tonight we noticed that our spa doesn't have a light. Oh, so it was like, it felt like it was a little bit more private. So Bree, somehow she, she went in naked, and then I was going in with my undies, and she said, told me to stop being a pussy and to take my undies off. So I did, and then as I Got in, it was all fine, and then like 2 minutes later, all the lights come on and it turns out that we did in fact have a light, but it was just all on a timer.

Tommy: Classic.

Josh: So, it was a little bit of a— We had to make sure the bubble— We had to quickly press the eject button, which was the bubble button, just to avoid offending anyone.

Tommy: That's classic. And before we started this podcast, you said that you could hear somebody next door. Is that what you said?

Josh: Yeah, I think we could hear, mate. It's, um, I think it's probably a bit of a sort of a honeymoon spot. Yeah, I think we heard people having sex.

Tommy: Have you, have you searched Santorini online? It's pretty much all it is, bogans and honeymooners.

Josh: Yeah, do you know what, there's a lot of Americans.

Tommy: Yeah, you're speaking of bogans.

Josh: Yeah, well, I, I put up on the, our, uh, subreddit. There we go again. It's called Behind the Scenes of a Santorini Sunset Photo. Have you seen this?

Tommy: Uh, yeah, I did see that, and I, and I've experienced it, mate. People are clapping as the sun goes down. Did you hear that?

Josh: Yeah, but you sort of— the way that you sold it in was it was this sort of like, oh yeah, like people are applauding, it sounds like this really beautiful thing. I had this, like, I was walking back going out of the crowds, and I had this lady, um, like who would have been probably in her 70s, elbowing me in the back. And so she was actually elbowing someone behind me, and that lady cracked it and she said something like, um, yeah, she said, you can go in front, like that's not acceptable. Um, she was basically making a bit of a cultural sort of reference, saying like, I don't know where you're from, but this isn't acceptable type type of thing. And so the lady went ahead, but I just, um, stood my ground. And like, she was just like pushing me, pushing me, pushing me, and I was just sort of like standing there.

Tommy: Where was she trying to get?

Josh: Walking along? No, well, every— the thing is, the crowd, like, it was a huge crowd, and people just on holidays are fucking impatient. And so she was literally just trying to get ahead of everyone else, even though everyone was going in the same direction.

Tommy: And in Greece, in Santorini, where you are, it's like just little passageways that are tiny. Like if something went down, it would be absolute pandemonium. There's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people just going through these little passageways.

Josh: Well, you look at the video that I posted and it's just like the photos that you see, even the photos you see that Bri— I haven't been posting that much, but if you see on Bri's Instagram, it's just You see these picturesque shots and, um, you just don't see many people. But the video that I posted actually shows you how crazy it gets.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. People get to these spots like an hour before to wait to be able to have the prime spot to watch the sunset.

Josh: Such a weird thing. Do you like— do you enjoy— like, for me, I, I get a little bit You know, um, I don't know the right word. I definitely— it ruins the vibe a bit for me. I think I take that shit on a bit more than what you do.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's all in the experience. We were, um, staying maybe 15 minutes away from where you are in Santorini, and we drove down there on our quad bike and parked, got this awesome rockstar spot, went and had dinner, and then watch the sunrise and then— sorry, sunset.

Josh: Sunset.

Tommy: Then we jumped back onto our bike after the hellish trying to get out of the little corridors and we rode back to Fira. Fira, sorry. And it was the most unbelievable moon. The light from the moon, this full moon was crazy. It's just like lit up the whole entire sky. We saw it coming up. So it's like this, you know, for me it's like the journey. Everything was— everything else was annoying about it, but I remember some really good bits. And so for people on holidays, there is—

Josh: So I'm an asshole?

Tommy: Well, I think at the moment you're feeling and you're sort of analysing and you're coming to me talking to me about something, which is what I probably would if I was reflecting in the moment on what was going on.

Josh: But Now I just think that like maybe— do you think there is a risk in— not a risk, but I just think that say that I worry about painting pictures of perfection everywhere I go. Like I think like because I see it and I can definitely paint it that way and it's like it— there is, there is a level of having gratitude which is really you know, important in life. But do you think that there's potentially a risk in— for all the people who can't have that opportunity to go and travel, that there's this perception that it's this, you know, this picturesque thing that's where there is like— there is a bit of a dark side of people show. Like, I was just like deconstructing some of the people where it was like there was There were some people on a sort of a bedding that sort of, um, they would have had an Airbnb that would have cost, you know, 10 grand a night or whatever, and they had this amazing view. And, um, what was that, Brizzy? It was a hotel. So they would have been spending a lot of money to be there. And, um, the— there was a girl in her robe on the roof with champagne And I was like deconstructing it, which was like, she had the same sort of spot that we had. Yeah, but we're like, we're off in the sort of the public area. And I was like, this is like real cynical of me, but I'm like, she's wearing a robe because she's taking heaps of photos because she needs to show on her Instagram account that she was in a private area where she had access to this, where she could wear a robe. And that was almost the only thing that she had on every other person who had like arrived on a bus or something like that.

Tommy: She probably just thinks it looks good. I mean, there are people who are super like overthinking this stuff, but then I've got a friend who's just like, he's cheeky, he's flamboyant, and he just like, you know, does those kind of photos and loves it and just loves just, just Yeah, just enjoys.

Josh: I think you've got a good perspective on it. I think I get, I do get very cynical.

Tommy: I mean, if you were to look at going, this is sad, like this person maybe has real self-esteem issues, like you could go real dark with it. And I'm sure there is.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But there's a lot of people like, there's a lot of people, you know, for me it's like that bathtub photo of Bodhi and I, like we totally manufactured that because there was a, if you look on my Instagram, They're just trying to get a few likes up here, Joshie. Um, we, there's a bathtub with this most amazing view at this house and Bodie and Amy and I are in the bathtub and we, the bathtub wasn't there when we got there, but I was like, this is fun. This is an amazing photo. This will be memorable. And, and so I don't know, maybe that's what people are like. They just see this as like a moment, but then there is the dark side. Just depends on how deep you want to go.

Josh: And the thing is that I'm wary that I, um. I, I feel like my inclination is to actually paint— like, I have all these positive experiences, but I almost don't want to just lead with that because I feel like it sets this sort of unattainable bullshit sort of existence. But, um, I feel like sometimes it can come across as ungrateful. So to be clear, having a fucking great time.

Tommy: Yeah, good.

Josh: Just people piss me off sometimes.

Tommy: And when you say having a great time, you mean having a great time on Reddit?

Josh: On Reddit. It's fucking great. Subreddit. It's reddit.com/r/thedailytalkshow.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: We've already had, um, we had one from, I think it was, was it Paul who sent us the, um, was talking about him being, um, underground and working underground. There's heaps of interesting information around that.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I got into that this morning, having a read of that. Shout out to Paul. Um, just one last thing, it is, uh, one more week until we're in New York City. Yeah, we've got 4 shows, 4 shows remaining before we're back in the same room doing the show. So if you've hung in there over the last however many eps, thank you.

Josh: Appreciate it.

Tommy: Shout out to you. Oh, it's a Monday.

Josh: And did you have a word of the day?

Tommy: Yeah, I had so much to get through, but we really just— it's because we haven't sort of spoken for 3 days that we just blurted out and got through 40 minutes of talking. So I really want to hold this. This is a good one. It's a, um, yeah, I want to hold it off for tomorrow, I think.

Josh: Okay, great. Well, mine, mine was mod cons. Do you know what mod cons means?

Tommy: I could imagine an older person saying, oh, that's got all the new mod cons. So, referring to something. What does it mean? Like mod, modern, cons, something cons. I don't know. Modern something.

Josh: Conveniences. Modern conveniences. Okay. The usual installations of modern, of a modern house, such as hot water or heating. So you could say, oh yeah, the boat's got all the mod cons. Have you seen that? Jeff's got heating in his boat.

Tommy: Yeah, something like that. I mean, you're pretty affluent if you've got a boat and you've got heating in your boat. You're doing well.

Josh: Exactly. Well, if you're going to wear a robe to get the photos, you need to make sure you're still a bit toasty at the same time. It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send an email. Or if you want, please join us on Reddit. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.