Beyond motivation with Craig Harper

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, everyone, episode 80. I'm Josh Janson.

Tommy: I'm Tommy Jackett.

Josh: And we thought, 80 episodes in, we, we've been speaking about someone and we think we need to finally get them on.

Tommy: Well, he's— what is he, the third most spoken about person on our podcast?

Josh: The most quoted, probably.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely the most quoted. I even find myself pretending I'm him. Craig Harper, welcome, mate.

Craig: Hello, boys. When do you pretend you're me, Tom?

Tommy: Well, no, I think I— if you listen— have you listened to the podcast?

Josh: No, he hasn't. So if you ask that, by the way, because you always know the answer.

Craig: That is not true. I've listened to bits and pieces, but I will say, yeah, uh, by the time I get through Joe Rogan each week, yeah, there's 24 hours.

Tommy: No, I think there's moments in the podcast where I have something, I say something really great, but then I realise that it's— I've just heard you say it, that I'm saying it.

Craig: Just regurgitated it.

Tommy: Correct.

Josh: Any profound shit that comes out, there is nothing new.

Craig: No, that's one of the funny things about personal development, fucking philosophy and wisdom and behavioural psychology and, you know, self-help. There's nothing new. Everybody's just sharing the same things. And they're, they're, you know, what I do is I Craigify it. So I stand in front of a group or an audience, or I write something And there's really, there are new ways perhaps of saying the same thing, but there's very little that's being shared in terms of how we should live or grow or learn or behave or adapt or be happy. There's fucking nothing new. There's nothing. You can read stuff that's 3,000, 4,000 years old that says what people think is groundbreaking today. And the same issues that we had, you know, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 years ago, you know, who am I? What's my purpose? What's the meaning of life? How do I be happy? I can, you know, all that stuff, it's the same, it's the same.

Josh: How do you Craigify it?

Craig: I try to turn it into a language that people connect with, you know, like especially in Australia, we don't love self-help, we're a bit wary. So people are, you know, if you look or smell like, you know, the self-help guru, people, a lot of people, the majority will not buy into that. And I'm not that anyway. But you know, the thing is people relate to, Aussies relate to, everyone does, but Aussies especially relate to humour and stories. And so if I can share a message around, you know, whatever it is, like doing the hard stuff first, you know, like all the value of getting uncomfortable from a physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, behavioral, professional perspective. Like what happens when we do the hard shit first and we don't put stuff off? And then I tell them a story. Well, when I was setting up my business or when I did this or that, or I tell them something that's been insightful and funny, you create an emotional connection. And if you create an emotional connection with people,, then they're much more likely to, one, remember that, and two, more likely to do something with that. So if you guys, for example, get on your podcast and you share all this brilliant fucking information, but you're both boring and you're both unrelatable, which is so far seems to be the case.

Josh: I think that you've actually just read one of the iTunes reviews.

Craig: No, it was him. But that's the thing. People like it. You know, like you guys are both, all jokes aside, you know, you've got good personalities, you're likable. And that's part of it. That's part of it is how do I— not just what do I want to say and what's my message, but how the fuck do I connect with people? Like, yeah, that's my constant challenge.

Tommy: I've been sending Josh, and I call it trolling, but I like to tag him in people online that I find interesting. More people that are just trying to sell shit and they are making funny videos. But there's this one guy and he's— it's— he is the hard-ass self-help guy, and I'm just pigeonholing him, but what I think he's lacking is empathy. He's, you know, the, you know, no one's got to help you, you got to do it yourself, but he says it with this almost aggression. And if I was to sort of break down what you do, it's like you're the, um, you have a level of empathy in the way you communicate your very straightforward messages.

Craig: And so I think that's why you have connected with so many But also I come from the place of, hey, by the way, I'm a fucking idiot too. So it's all good. Like we're all a bit broken and all a bit amazing. We're all dysfunctional. We've all got issues. I'm an overthinker. My ego gets in the way. My fear gets in the way. But in the middle of all of that humanity, right? None of that's weakness. That's just being normal. That's being human. In the middle of all of that, I still have the opportunity to do my best. I still have the opportunity to learn and grow and ask great questions and roll up my sleeves and, do the work. And everybody has— if you stand up on a stage, it's like you fucking got it all together and you're the pinnacle of success and performance and knowledge and insight and wisdom. No one's connecting with you, you know, because no one is that person anyway. So when, you know, yesterday I was in Adelaide, we had a couple of hundred people, and, um, you know, the fact that I will talk about my own issues and my own challenges and my own insecurities as well as giving them some solid strategic kind of direction and education means that I'm going to create greater connection because I'm coming from a place of authenticity. And also, uh, I'm speaking experientially. I'm not— this is not something I read in a book and now I'm telling you the thing that I read in a book. Like, I've, I've employed over 500 people. I've written for the Herald Sun. I've been on national television for 3 years. I've written books. I've fucked up. I've, I've made money. I've lost money. I've been fat. I've been skinny. I've done amazing gigs where everybody— there was, it was fucking magic. And I've done gigs where I walked out going, that's it, I'm never doing this again, I'm shit house.

Tommy: And he's saying the 21-year-old life coach can't actually teach me anything.

Craig: I'm telling you, that guy probably needs to get to at least 22, maybe a couple more runs, you know. But I mean, everyone can teach everyone something.

Josh: Yeah. What was the young version of you? How much have you developed?

Craig: Um, I've developed a lot. I was always very, um, curious, and I, I was, uh, I never thought I was very— which I'm not, but I never thought thought I was spectacular. I always had pretty shit self-esteem, but, but good curiosity, and I was not particularly scared of trying stuff.

Josh: Would you talk about the fuck-ups at the beginning, or is that being—

Craig: All right, that's a good question. No, not so much, because I, I guess on some level I didn't consciously think this, but I guess on some level, um, I was embarrassed. Or if I thought, you know, I think to a level we all feel like we're faking it till we make it, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And I think part of You know, part of that is that we want to portray an image, you know, without being fraudulent, but we want to present our best selves and, oh yeah, I can do that. Yeah, no problem. And sometimes behind that I'm thinking, fuck, I don't know if I can do that. But yeah, I think for a while, on a level, I was a fraud because I wasn't doing everything I was teaching. I remember even as, you know, I set up the first personal training business in Australia, trained tens of thousands of people over 30-odd years, or tens of thousands of sessions anyway. And there were times when I would be telling my clients to do a certain thing, then I'd be going home and buying fucking Kentucky Fried Chicken and eating 5 million calories worth of shit at night, and then going, "Am not, am not, am not." You know, it's because you're embarrassed. But at the same time, I was a fat little kid, and so with that being a morbidly obese kid whose name was Jumbo and all of that stuff, that was my name at school, very few people call me Craig. And then with that stuff, that 14-year-old fat kid lives on.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: You know, and you all, you think, oh, Craig, you're 54, fuck, you must have it all together. And on a practical level, I think I have it, a lot of it together. But on a human level, you're still, the fat 14-year-old still is hanging around.

Josh: So if the commodity, if the interest factor is in your fuck-ups, it's in the where things haven't gone right, it's in the personal stuff. How do you, how do you know what to share and what not to share? Do you just become an open book and talk about everything?

Craig: Yeah, I was, I was talking with Tommy about this before. Like, there's a big difference between standing in front of an audience and giving a presentation. You know, I'm doing a presentation on Monday to a bunch of accountants, and there's 8 points, and there's an intro, and then there's my 8 points, and then there's an outro. And each point is going to take about 6 minutes, 10 times 60. That's my 60 minutes and that's good, right? Well, that's very choreographed and rehearsed, and that's a very difficult way to create real connection and to create real impact. And it's very hard to be in the moment and be organic and be intuitive and read an audience. And because I've been in front of so many audiences— audience, audiences of one with my clients through to audiences of whatever through the media— I'm used to reading situations, circumstances, and people in the moment. So I'm quite instinctive in that if I feel like where I'm going is not connecting, I'll change direction. But I'll also in the middle of it go, you know, many times I've gone, many times, probably 100 times in the middle of a presentation, I've said, all right, so from here we've got 30 minutes to go. I could, I could cover this stuff more. I could go, we could talk more about, you know, the body stuff, so exercise, lifestyle, nutrition, or we can head more down the behavioural psychology. What the fuck's going on with my head? Thinking, beliefs, values, fear, anxiety. So do you want to do the more head psychological stuff or the physiological stuff? And I let them decide so that, you know, and if 80 people, 80% of people go, oh, my head's a fucking nightmare, I overthink the shit out of everything, can you explore that? I'm like, cool, we're in, strap in, hold on, let's go. And that way you'll making them part of the decision-making process of what we actually cover.

Josh: It's knowing your audience too, I guess. You're getting an understanding of what they care about, what makes them tick.

Craig: Like, you might be the most articulate person in town, but being articulate and having great speaking skills doesn't mean you're creating connection.

Josh: Yeah, I've seen the impact that, you know, whenever Tommy catches up with you, I feel like I— you expect if you go to someone who is maybe in the motivational realm or something like that, that they're going to be hyped or something like that. But the thing that I notice when after Tommy speaks with you is there's a level of clarity that he has. It's, uh, it's less about being jazzed or motivated and more of a reassurance in where he's going. Is that, is that one-on-one style Is that your preferred method? Is that where you see the biggest impacts?

Craig: I love one-on-one, but it's not efficient. So that's why I do one on a thousand, you know. But in terms of, you know, getting jazzed and, you know, look, being motivated and pumped and excited has a place. But Tommy's heard this 8 million times, but motivation's temporary. So it comes— so getting pumped and excited I'm pretty sure I've said that on this podcast. It doesn't create long-term change. So if you're in the zone and pumped and happy, and that's great, but what I care about is what happens on Thursday when you don't feel that and you couldn't give a fuck. Because I mean, the truth is that we all want to, you guys wanna succeed with this podcast, you both wanna succeed with your individual careers, I wanna impact more people, we all wanna be a bit healthier, a bit happier, we all want better income or more calm or a better marriage, or we all want— there's shit that we all want. So let's get clear, what is it that you want, right? What is success for you? Because for you will not be the same for me, and so on. So one, let's get clear about that. And then cool, now what are the things that you need to be consistently doing? Not when you're pumped, not when you're excited, but fucking every day, day in, day out, whether or not it's fun, quick, easy, comfortable, popular or not. What are the things that for you need to be completely fucking non-negotiable? And so like, and I, you know, it's not often I'm super serious around Tommy, but you guys would be commended because you've done 80 podcasts and I know that you're both busy outside the podcast and there's a fair bit of organising and running around and getting people and a fair bit of prep and stuff. And I know what it's like when you're doing something and you're grinding and there's fuck all feedback initially anyway, but now you guys are getting some momentum and— but most people would have given up at number 30. Or number 15. But here you are, you're 80 in, and I'm sure, you know, at podcast number 150, you'll be back here and we'll be talking like dickheads about the progression then. But it's just that, like, you've both got personalities and you're both smart and you've both got skills, but all of that is fucking redundant if you are not going to consistently do what needs to be done to create a good podcast day in, day out, which most people won't do. Most people don't fail because they lack skill or knowledge or potential. They fail because they just won't do the work consistently over time.

Josh: And I think even Tommy, that's what Tommy and I were talking this morning where we're—

Tommy: Yeah, I was channelling Harbs, wasn't I? I really was.

Josh: Well, we've done, yeah, we've done 80 episodes and we've done that based on consistency, showing up every day and making that our priority., and I'm a little bit, uh, I'm an undiagnosed ADD, probably, you know, a bit fucking, uh, wired.

Tommy: Well, I've got two dicks and I'm a dog according to Craig.

Josh: And the—

Craig: You certainly are.

Josh: And so, uh, I'm always— so the thought at the moment is that, okay, we've nailed down consistency, we need to— we've done the track 80 times, now we need to fucking recalibrate, increase the engine, add some new stickers on the side, When, when do you start to, to look around and actually stop the doing and the consistency and actually reflect?

Craig: Well, I don't know that you need to stop the doing, but I think either literally or metaphorically— perhaps literally you need to hit the pause button and go, right, we're not doing one for a week, we're going to stand back, get some perspective. Or maybe metaphorically, where you, you just spend a day together or a half day together just listening, thinking, brainstorming. It's difficult to find objective, uh, perspective or objectivity about something that you are in the middle of. But, but irrespective of all of the other variables, you know, content, execution, uh, quality, fucking personalities, you know, equipment, all that stuff, if you don't turn up every day, everything else is redundant. So you guys are turning up every day. It's like with the gym You can have a million-dollar gym at your disposal, great genetics, great plan, great ideas, great intention, great resources, but if you're not there training, you're getting no fucking results. And so, you know, but I think what I would be doing is even throwing it open to your audience going, what do you love? What don't you love? What do you want to hear more of? What do you think just as a product? 'Cause the thing about, you know, motivational speakers, the thing about podcasts, the thing about fitness products, the thing about fucking whatever, clothing stores, cafes. There's 80 million of them— billion. And so you need to go, well, if we just rock up every whatever— how often do you do this?

Josh: Every day? Every day.

Craig: If we rock up every day and we kind of do what everyone else is doing, there's no way that we can stand out because we're not doing anything outstanding. So on the one hand, you've got to be practical and deliver content and hopefully find some guests, but at the same time Mediocre is not the goal, you know. So it's a constant reevaluation, it's a constant how we going, what's working. And that's why it's good for you to have, um, like, you're both creative, so you both get the process, but, but neither of you— like, literally right now we're sitting in a studio, you guys are on the opposite side of the table to me— neither of you have ever sat over here and looked at you or heard you or had a conversation with you.. So, I could give you feedback about you that you couldn't give you about you because you are you. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but that's part of the, you know, because you're not trying to make you guys happy, you're trying to create global connection.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And people want to give feedback too, right? Like, I think that our defaults seem to be, you know, I'm going away for 3 months to Europe and everyone has a fucking opinion on how you do it, where you should stay. You know, I don't do it that way, don't travel this way. How do you, uh, how do you filter feedback? How do you realise that, okay, to be— it's that, you know, faster horses, faster, you know, analogy. How do you, um, how do you filter out the good from the bad feedback? When do you listen?

Craig: Are you talking about feedback that people just give you, or are you talking about feedback that you've sought?

Josh: Yeah, interesting. Well, I think that, you know, for, for one sort of case, we have our email address and we'll get, uh, we ask people to send through emails and all that sort of thing. And I really put that on a pedestal because people have gone to the effort of writing to us. They listen to us. Yeah, they've probably heard to the end of the podcast.

Craig: Yeah.

Josh: So for me, it's about audience research. Yeah, all that sort of thing. Um, yeah, when people you know, when I haven't specifically asked, it's normally probably not as valuable because I'm not seeking it at the time, right?

Craig: Yeah, well, I think, you know, if you ask, you need to be very clear about what you want feedback on. Not just give us your thoughts, just go, hey, you know, we're thinking of adding this, what do you guys think of that? Or, um, you know, like I know for example, because I do a lot of stuff in social media, I can tell what people like because the stuff that they like I get lots of feedback on I get lots of, you know, approval on. And so that's, that's a good directive and that's good feedback. But, you know, I'm a bit older and as you've pointed out, Josh, grumpier than you little fucker yesterday.

Josh: Never forget, never forget.

Craig: Not really. I'm just because I have so many conversations about kind of the same stuff. You get to the point where you go, I'm not having this conversation again. You know, and so when someone goes to me and I haven't asked for it, hey, you know what you should do? I go, yep, I do. Thanks. I shut it down.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Unless, you know, it depends on who and what and where. But I think, you know, there's a point where you can only— I'm not saying I'm not coming from a place of arrogance, but I'm coming from a point of the only people that know your vision for what you want to do, be, create is you two guys. And I think you need to filter the feedback and gauge the feedback accordingly, because you, you ask 100 people— I'll give you an example. I was writing a thing the other few weeks ago on spirituality, and I was trying to— I'm trying to get my head around this, this kind of new component to what I'm talking about with people. Not so we're all walking around in fucking caftans and, you know, like hugging each other and playing a tambourine or whatever, but so that we might open the door. And well, what is spirituality? Like, what is it? Like, is it consciousness?

Tommy: Is it—

Craig: is a thought involved? Or is it that kind of wisdom that lives beyond thought?

Josh: You know.

Craig: And so I thought, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to— I've got a bunch of friends who are a bit spiritual, and I'm going to send them all an email and say, or a message, and say, could you just write for me in your words— not Google, not anything— just a definition of spirituality. Not what it means to you personally, but what spirituality is. So if someone came from another planet and you had to try and explain to them, oh well, spirituality is, you know, it's like you go, well, what's grass? Oh well, grass is— it's easy. Or what's, what's milk? Well, milk is— but what's spirituality? So give me a definition, but, uh, written in your words. So I literally asked 10 of them ranging from Christian ministers to Buddhists to people who are just literally spiritual, kaftan-wearing types that I know. And they all sent me a definition, and all the definitions were different. Like, none of them were even— there was a little bit, but they were all very different. I'm like, man, and these are people who are spiritual.

Tommy: Yeah.

Craig: And so, you know, what's my point? My point is you might get 3 or 4 people who give you some feedback, and it is really relevant for them, but for 97 out of 100, it's not. So it's trying to find the consensus. And because, you know, is what we're doing connecting? Is it working? And are we meeting a need? Are we serving the people that are listening?

Josh: And TJ, you have got a— you've over the years had a lot of people around you who are into coaching, into motivational stuff. They come and go. Harps is someone who over the last few years I've seen you sort of keep at and be one of those consistent sort of mentors, as you might call them. What is it, do you think, about Harps that keeps you coming back and keeps you sort of on that focus?

Craig: I think it's that orange top that I had on before, that tight wind shooter that—

Tommy: please wear that again. Yeah, no, but to be honest, I have gone in and out of your stuff, not your messages, and it's like being into Eckhart Tolle for a little bit because it's really resonating. And I've honestly found your stuff resonating, and then— not that it's not, but I've just been on to something else.

Craig: Yeah.

Tommy: And then, and then all of a sudden you've been talking to me, I'm like, fuck, you know, it's like penny drops. It's like I'm at a different stage. And I see it with your— with the audience you have, I just— at a time where what is— what you're saying is resonating because they might grow out of it and evolve into another, not greater or lesser, but just something. And I find that really interesting. And I've— and it's interesting when it's someone who's actually a good friend and that happens with.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: It's weird.

Josh: Yeah. And it's almost like one of the interesting things about that approach is I think it's very different to mine because in some regards it's dabbling into motivation when you need it or seeking out it when you feel that that's a point. It's almost like if I was to use an analogy, and we love analogies here on the on the show, Harps. It's the equivalent of people with LinkedIn, right? Probably, I reckon, 80% of people will only ever update their LinkedIn when they're looking for a new job, right? My point my whole life has been if I just keep it consistent all the time, then it means that if I fucking hate my job or if I want to go to a new place, I don't— people aren't going to be noticing any difference. And it's the same thing with this motivational thing. I find that I've got, I'm constantly absorbing that content and it's something that I shift the type of content that I'm listening to depending on what it is that I feel like the gap. But do you feel like one works better than the other? Do you find that, am I, do I become too much about myself? Am I too inwards focused if I'm constantly—

Craig: Yeah. That's a really good question, Josh, because Like, I know there's a difference between self-management and self-obsession.

Josh: Yeah, right.

Craig: So all of us want to manage ourselves. So I want to manage my mind, my body, my choices, my lifestyle, my relationships in a healthy way. I don't want to pretend everything's good when it's shit, but at the same time, I don't want to create problems. So it's that constant, you know, how do I manage my mind? Because my mind, your mind, is the, the operation centre for Planet Josh. That's where everything happens. Decisions, actions, reactions. That's where all that stuff's born. Processing the world around you, giving things value and meaning and purpose. And what's my truth? And what's my passion? What are Tommy and I going to do next? And how do we build this, grow that? What's that guy looking at? Who's she? What's this? All of that is an internal dialogue, and it's— some of that's healthy and some of it's fucking internal chaos, right? So it's trying to manage our mind so that we have a healthy platform to manage our life. And really You know, people call me the motivational speaker and I get it because that's what they understand. But really, I talk about self-management and whether or not that is how do I manage my mind or my emotions or my body, it's all intertwined.

Josh: And it's a paradox too, because you've got like Elon Musk's book here. His life's fucked in a lot of ways, right? Like, he's a dude who has no sense of balance. And so I think that, you know, Tommy and I have spoken about you know, our friends like Jules Lund, who's been extremely successful, but in a lot of ways is fucking wide and always on. And his fuel is the anxiety that he needs to be moving forward. How, you know, yeah, where do you manage it? How do you realize, okay, this is fuel that's helping motivate? And it might be even a fighter, right? There might be a lot of fuel from a fighter to be able to think, I want to fucking smash this guy who I'm about to get into a ring with.

Tommy: I should not use fighting analogies because I see another analogy, but, um, sometimes they fall flat, but other times really great.

Josh: How do you understand the few, you know, how do you understand the fuel?

Craig: Because it's one of the things, let's say, with Jules, and I don't know, uh, that's right, I have met, I met Jules at your wedding, Tommy. He's a good boy. Um, but like, for example, what happens sometimes with people who are very dedicated, we'll say that's a euphemism for obsessed, uh, very dedicated to a process, a sport, a business, or an outcome, is that the vast majority of their physical, mental, and emotional energy goes into that thing. And so they don't have a lot of balance, right? So it comes back to a— probably a— I know where you're going, Josh, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I think a better question is how do we define success for us personally? What is that like? Is it possible— let's say not Jules, let's say someone else— but let's say, is it possible that this guy or this girl—

Josh: Elon Musk is a perfect example, right?

Craig: Is it possible that— and let's say, is it possible that he's building amazing stuff, he's doing amazing things with technology, he's potentially changing the landscape of the world in some ways with, with some of the things that he's bringing into our consciousness and our, our physical world. Uh, so in some ways he's killing it. Um, but if behind the scenes or away from the technology and the physical results that he's producing, if he is a physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual wreck, is he still successful? If his emotional bank balance is zero, if he's, you know, and that— there's no judgement in this, this— I'm just asking questions. And so You know, like for many times I've worked with people who set a goal, they got— they achieved the goal, and when they got there they went, fuck, this is not it because I'm still shit, I'm still miserable. So we tell ourselves stories. One of the storeys is, I'll be happy when— I'll be happy when— I'll be happy when we've got a million listeners, I'll be happy when we've got 2 million, or I'll be happy when I'm driving this or owning that or living there or earning that. And there's nothing wrong with any of those external things But when our entire focus on success is physical or external, that is stuff, that is accolades, achievements, tangible things, what often happens— not always, but what often happens— is we have an internal chasm, be that emotional, spiritual, or psychological, which I know is deep, but it's true because I know lots of rich failures, heaps. I know lots of people who are succeeding, they are externally killing it, and people would put them in the success category, but at the same time, you know, some of their reality is anything but successful. So it's trying to marry up the, uh, I guess, you know, my, my, my passion is to help people achieve, but also to find purpose and meaning and truth and success in the context of their true values. Like, there's not many people that if I say, what are your values, they're going to say money. Most people will say, well, my value— I go, what things like I guess, health and connection and family. And most people would say that whether or not they're being genuine or not, but most people would say that. But if you look at how we live, it seems like the overwhelming value for most people is generating money.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: So now let me pare that back. Is there anything wrong with Elon Musk generating? No, nothing. There's nothing wrong with making lots of money. There's nothing wrong with driving a fucking Bentley or living on, you know, Beach Road and looking at the ocean. Nothing wrong with that. The only danger is when our stuff, our external results, start to become our identity. When what I have and what I own and what I earn becomes who I am, then I'm always— Tommy, answer that— then I'm always going to be vulnerable. I'm always going to be vulnerable because that stuff can disappear.

Josh: And what, what is that? What is the storey that you tell yourself in terms of success? Yeah, I mean, I guess even, even to get to this point in your career, it feels like, uh, there's some narrative— there's been a narrative that's been created. Yeah, out of your control even. Sure. And then I guess it's our choice of how we, um, reconcile that narrative and say, okay, well, this, this is my perspective on it. You know, how, how do you, how do you reconcile the fact that we all are storytellers, and the better the storyteller, the more sort of probably ingrained it is?

Craig: What, what is the storey Well, part of my storey is that I grew up in a paradigm basically that taught, you know, that what you do is like— we're all kind of trained, okay? So you, you leave school and you go to uni, or you leave school and you get a job, and you get a job, then you get a wife or a husband, whatever the case is, and then you, then you have a kid or two, then you, you know, you buy a station wagon and you pay shit off, and then, you know, you have family and friends and then grandchildren, then you die, all the best. You know, that's kind of the almost the unwritten formula. But, and I, I, well, I didn't do that, that's for sure. Um, but I left school, I got a job, and then I didn't like working for other people too much, so I started my own thing. And I got to the point where by the time I was 30, I'd owned my business for a while. I owned the only personal training centre in Australia. I was going reasonably well, things were good practically, uh, financially, uh, professionally, brand, all that stuff going good. And But one day, kind of literally one day, I woke up and went, "I don't love this," you know. And in the middle of my pretty good brand, pretty good profile, pretty good bank balance, all of those things— nothing wrong with any of those things— but that for me didn't equate to, "I feel awesome and I love my life." Did you think you had to go through all of that to realise it? I did. I did think that. I did think that. And I'm not blaming anyone, but that's how I was trained. Like, from the moment we can, you know, rationalize, we're being trained unconsciously. We're being programmed by the media, by our parents, by our friends, by our peers, by our teachers, by our pastor, by our rabbi, whoever it is. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's just what happens because we're little information gatherers. We just soak up fucking stuff constantly. We're constantly— especially when you're a kid, you're constantly learning, whether or not that's intentional or not. You know, so when I was raised in a very Catholic environment, I learned that everyone except me and my Catholic mates— I learned that everyone was going to hell. Now, and that's not even— that sounds funny, but that's not even, um, questioned. It's like, oh, everyone's wrong, we're right. Oh really? Oh fuck, that's terrible for them.

Josh: Pretty dark.

Craig: Good for us because hell's hot, you know. And I mean, you now, as you know, you go, oh, all right, well Well, that— yeah, okay, I know what was going on. That's all right. But everyone grows up in a paradigm of belief.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: You know, if your mum and dad believe— if your mum and dad are, for example, Jewish and they barrack for Carlton and your dad votes this way, and there's a fair chance you're going to be all of that. Like, you're not going to grow up and be a Buddhist in that house, and you're not going to be a Catholic, Essendon supporter. Exactly, exactly. So we kind of become whoever raised us, and the challenge for us is to to sometimes hit the pause button and go— and by the way, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's a human thing. The challenge is to go, okay, well, apart from what I've been taught and told and programmed, what do I actually fucking think? Like, what are my beliefs? Where do my beliefs come from? Are they actually my beliefs, or are they Dad's and I'm just wearing them because they're comfortable? They're comfortable, and I don't want to disagree with Dad because I love Dad, and so these are my beliefs too. And boom, now I'm 50. And I'm living a compromised life.

Josh: Well, Tommy and I talk about that with fatherhood, right? So, um, uh, Tommy, you know, uh, how old's Bodhi now?

Tommy: 14 months.

Josh: 14 months. And, uh, I've never planned on having kids, and it's a conversation. And having, uh, a best mate who is a dad, you start to, you know, you start to question some of the decisions and you start saying, okay, well, maybe you see the joy that it brings TJ in his life. And so you start to wonder, well, hang on, well, maybe, maybe my pushback in doing everything the standard way, maybe the, the pushback in mediocrity or sort of living this sort of life, maybe that's ill-informed. Maybe I'm giving so much pushback to this life that's expected that I'm not fucking doing anything. I'm not getting— you know, I've been with, uh, Bree my girlfriend for over 10 years, and I love the idea of commitment. I love, like, you know, plan on being with her together but forever. But the idea of marriage, I have pushback just because of everyone else is fucking doing it. Is that, is that a problem?

Craig: Um, it's not a problem, but what that is on your part is that is self-awareness, and that is, that is emotional intelligence. And for someone who's on the spectrum, that's very good of you. Um, uh, and I mean that in a loving way, but But it is— what that is, is you're starting to realise what you're like, and that's, that's the beginning of consciousness and self-awareness. And I think resisting stuff for the sake of resisting it is stupid.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: If you want to get married, get married. If you don't, don't. If you want to have a baby, have a baby. If you don't, don't. Um, you know, I'm 54, never been married, and won't be married. Don't have a kid, won't have a kid. That— and I'm not saying, so this is the lifestyle, this is what— not at all, not at all. I think most people should not do what I've done because it would not work for them. It works for me. So it's trying to find what is the thing that works for you. And you know, the funny thing is that— how old are you, Josh?

Josh: Uh, 28.

Tommy: Yeah.

Craig: So when you were 22, what really worked for you wouldn't work for you when you're 28. Yeah, right. Because there are times in our life where not only is success different for Tommy and Josh and Craig, but there are times when success for Josh at 21 is not success for Josh at 25 or 28. And some of the things that now turn you on and kind of you know, blow your socks off and excite you, when you're 35, you're going to go, what the fuck was that about? It's because you evolve, and as you evolve, what will work for you, in inverted commas, that changes.

Tommy: So you're saying, Josh, that you've had the, you've had the thought that maybe you were thinking that just because you didn't want to do what everyone else is doing?

Josh: Yeah, well, I think that it's the— I feel like I rationalize, like I try and rationalise the decisions I make. And so for fatherhood, or, you know, becoming a parent My thoughts behind it or the narrative is that I only want to do it if I know that I can support them really well. So, I don't want to be in a situation where things are really hard. I want to make sure that I can give them my time. I guess that maybe I look around and I see, you know, I went to a pretty low socioeconomic school, bit of a povoh school, and I see a lot of people popping out babies, which is fine, and it's that sort of journey that they're wanting to go on. But I think that there's a desire in me to, if I'm going to do it, I want to do it really well. And I feel like for an 18-year commitment, there's a bunch of things that I need to do first.

Tommy: Life commitment.

Josh: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. And the thing is, and TJ talks about it, there's no fucking good time to have a kid.

Tommy: Yeah, well, if we were to take that out of just that situation of having a kid, waiting for something to happen before you do it, or getting prepared, putting the ducks in a line or in an order, in a row, in a row. Got there.

Craig: Can you not fuck up your metaphors?

Tommy: I told you we fucked metaphors up.

Craig: You two and your metaphors.

Josh: Exactly.

Craig: Yeah, look, I think that, you know, it— having a kid is impractical. Having a kid is expensive and messy and terrifying and beautiful and rewarding and glorious. It's everything. It's, it's, it's not a strategic thing, you know, it's a human thing. And as you said, I mean, who am I, but I've watched a lot of people do it and a lot— watched a lot of people do it well and maybe not so well. But as an observer from the outside looking in, who is probably more objective, um I think that, you know, the, the biggest determinant, irrespective of is it practical, is this the right time logistically, is this a good decision, it's more about whether or not you're just fucking emotionally ready. Yeah, like, because you can have all your ducks in a row— there's your metaphor— um, you can have everything sorted, but if you personally are not ready, it's going to be a fucking train wreck.

Josh: What's been your thought process around fatherhood and things like that?

Craig: Yeah, that's a good question. So for me, I I never planned to not get married. I just, I just didn't. And I, I guess if I'm being— I'm being honest, but yeah, you know, I've, I got to the point a few times where I was a maybe, and I went, can I honestly— and this is no reflection on any of the, the girls that I've been out with, it's a reflection on my flaws, not theirs— can I confidently say I'm going to be here for the next 30 or 40 years? And the answer was no. So I'm then like, oh, I can't, I can't, you know, not— oh, well, look, fuck, I think so, I hope so, I'll cross my fingers. Um, and then I woke up one day and I was 40. I'm like, all right. And then I was 45. And yeah, so I think this is an interesting question or an interesting conversation because I think I always say to people, um, you know, my life is full and I have a lot of friends and I have a lot of, uh, I have a lot of conversations with a lot of people. You know, guys and girls. And, and I'm with people or I'm alone. Like, I'm with— it's busy or it's quiet because I live by myself. And so if you took Craig Harper and you took him out of his current reality— why am I talking? Why is he talking in the third person? If, if we took me out of my reality and all of a sudden I was the kid who grew up in Latrobe Valley, and instead of going left, I went right, and like a lot of my mates, I started working at the power station, you know, at the SEC, and I became a boilermaker or a welder or a pipefitter— nothing wrong with any of those careers— and I went down that path, and I was living up there in Teralgon or Morwell or whatever, I probably would have had 3 kids and a wife and be, you know, relatively happy. I guess it's just that it depends where you are in life as well.

Josh: So you reject the idea because I guess the, you know, we, we run on fear a lot of the times, and so the choice of not having kids is the fear that I am not ready or that's not part of my life or that the idea of, you know, Tommy and I've talked about the fact that if I did, if Bri and I did have kids, we'd probably adopt or something like that.

Craig: Yeah.

Josh: You know, is the, I guess that the other side of the coin is that fear that you're going to turn to being your 50s or your 60s and you'd be fucking alone.

Craig: Yeah.

Josh: And it's going to be sad.

Craig: Thanks for bringing that up.

Josh: Thanks.

Craig: Yeah.

Josh: But is that—

Tommy: How many times have you had that conversation?

Craig: A lot. I have that a lot. And I don't, you know, is it ill-informed?

Josh: Is it people just— not at all.

Craig: I mean, some people don't get married and they are— I get it. I get that. I get that thinking. And I'm not offended by that at all. At all. I respect it, in fact. Um, I guess like a lot of people really do not like— legitimately don't like being alone. I legitimately like being alone. Yeah, I could travel the world by myself for 2 years and not have have a meaningful conversation with anyone and have fun. Well, I'd have, you know, but I mean, I, I'm very good in my own space. I've lived by myself since I was 17 years old. Yeah, that's 37 years of living alone. So I'm real good at it and real good at being alone. I'm also real good at being with people, and I'm also real good at listening, and I'm fascinated by people. Um, I'm quite spiritual and I'm quite a deep thinker, so the idea of death doesn't terrify me. I don't want to die, but I'm not terrified of death. I'm not terrified of being 70 and being alone. And, you know, maybe that'll happen. I don't think that'll happen.

Josh: What about the self-motivated, open-minded Craig Harper? Does— Do you think, fuck, it's a good chance having a kid would be, you know, a good challenge? Or maybe it's like, am I missing a perspective? Because, you know, Tommy describes fatherhood as something that's indescribable to people who don't have them, which is a real fucking hard position to be in when you don't have them, because it's like, It's like a mate who was meditating and he said that he's enlightened, he feels enlightened now, and you say, what's it like?

Tommy: It's not—

Josh: well, you can't fucking— you're never going to get it because you haven't experienced it. How the fuck— how can you, how can you reconcile it? How can you say, well, I'm going to accept the— as an open-minded person, I am still going to not go down that path?

Craig: I mean, it's not, it's not a conversation I have with myself these days, but do, do I think there is any chance at all that I would maybe be married one day or still maybe have a kid. Maybe there's a chance. It's not like that's on my— it's, it's not like I'm planning top of mind. No, but it's not like, no, I would definitely not do that. Or it's— I, I get a lot of fulfilment and purpose and happiness through just what I do right now. And, and I kind of— the way I am is, do I like my life? Yeah, I do. Do I have good relationships? Am I for the most part content? The answer is yes. Um, uh, and I don't think having a kid or being married is at all a bad thing. I think for many people it's the best thing. For some people it might not be. I don't think getting married is always a great decision. I don't think getting divorced is always a great decision. Um, but I think that it's like— I think we all have this kind of inner guidance system, you know, and for me, I, I think I'm in the right place. I feel like I'm doing the right thing for me. And also, this sounds a bit weird, but I also feel like I have quite a few people who, you know, I invest a lot in, like a lot of people, and that's almost my family. Yeah, you know, that's why if I was the Boilermaker in Tarellgan, I'd probably be a very different person. Not better, not worse, just a different—

Josh: well, you'd be finding fulfilment in a different way.

Craig: 100%. 100%.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And my life is not better or worse, it's just different. I don't think, geez, I've figured it out I pity everyone else. I think, I, you know, this is the other thing too. It's trying to figure out what's going to work for you. Yeah, because your best situation, your best life, your best path, your best decision will not work for Tommy, and vice versa, because you're not him and he's not you.

Tommy: Just to bring it back around before we finish off, I know you gotta run, Craig. The stuff Josh was talking around, the storeys that you, you tell about your own life that make connection and are the things that are the lessons that you're sharing with people. And one of them is the time that you kind of had that moment where you go, I don't want this, what I've created I don't want, and now I'm working out what I want. And, you know, I guess there's a lot of successful motivational speakers that have a version of that in their own way. Yeah. And were you saying, Josh, do you need to have that moment?

Josh: Yeah, some people call it the crucible moment where it's like that moment where you hit rock bottom to be, you know, uh, the biggest podcasters in the world, people like Rich Roll, who's the vegan dude who's got a popular podcast, you know, everyone seems to have come from some space of alcoholism or some form of fuck-upery in their life to be able to say, you know what, it's like minimalism. I was, uh, filming with and touring with the guys who, uh, created the film Minimalism. They called The Minimalists. They do, you know, talking all about getting rid of shit. And the one thing I found in all of those talks that they did, the Q&A, people would get up and people are notoriously fucking bad, and you wouldn't know this at any of those talk— any of these style of talks where people want to give their life storey before they fucking ask the question.

Craig: They hijack it.

Josh: Yeah, the classic hijack. And they all had that storey of— and it got me thinking that maybe the only time that you become a minimalist is first being a maximalist, real— like having too much shit —because if you don't have too much shit, if you aren't morbidly obese, you're probably not gonna be thinking about what you're eating too much. You'll continue on the journey of eating whatever you want. But if you're 120 kilos, then maybe you then have that moment.

Tommy: So the question is, do you have to have these moments?

Craig: I don't think you necessarily have to have a— I think it often associates with is to have a crisis or to have you know, that kind of fucking rock bottom moment. But not, not always. I mean, you know, as you know, Tommy, my mum got diagnosed with lung cancer and bowel cancer last year within 2 weeks of each other. And then within the following 3 weeks had 2 major, major surgeries, either which could have killed her. She had those within 10 days, meant to have those 6 months apart, couldn't afford to. Then went through 5 months of chemo, uh, 78, 79 years old, probably would have killed me, the chemo didn't kill her, blah blah blah blah. Now from the outside looking in and being part of that journey as her son, that just readjusted my, um, my perspective yet again, where you go, okay, so this is what matters. So what matters is love, what matters is family, what matters is me being there for my all the other bullshit that I obsess about and the stuff that I, I think matters in the context of that for that period of time anyway. And even now, like I said to you, we were walking across the road before getting from getting a coffee, and I said, I'm going to see my mum on Sunday for Mother's Day. And I said to you, thank God I have a mum, remember? And you went, yeah, because there was a time there where I wasn't going to have a mum to go to this Mum's Day. And I think that— you know, it might be your own personal fucking breakdown, Josh, or epiphany, or it could be just— you know, I always say to people, the ability, the potential to redirect your life or to do better or to do amazing, it's there. Don't wait for the fucking catastrophe. Can you hack it then?

Josh: Can you?

Craig: You can hack it. That's a good question. You can.

Tommy: You've got the ebook, don't you? The 3 Steps to Hacking It?

Craig: Yeah, I've got the The 3 steps to total transformative experience. But, um, yeah, you can. But, but I mean, the other thing too is that, you know, I have to wind up because I'm going a minute, but everything comes at a cost, you know. Build— building a— like, let's say that you guys, hopefully in a year from now, you've got 100,000 subscribers. You're not going to get 100,000 subscribers unless you fucking roll up your sleeves and grind and do the work and commit like most people won't commit. Because it comes at a cost, you know. Me building a speaking career where hopefully I've regularly got 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 people in front of me, there's just work. There's just, you know, you don't— it doesn't magically happen, you know. Building a fucking castle on the ocean or whatever your version of success is, is about grinding, you know, being happy, being content. And, and the truth is, I believe that most people have got amazing in them, if not everyone's got amazing in them. But not everyone will do the work. And we love the hack, we love the, the magic pill, the silver bullet, the quick fix. We are the instant gratification society. And once you stop looking for the easy path and start looking for the right path, things get better.

Josh: Love it. A lot of wisdom there. Craig Harper, thanks for, uh, being on the Daily Talk Show celebrating episode 80 with us. You're on, you're on episode 7 of your new podcasts, right?

Craig: I am. You know what I was thinking? While we're still recording, feel free to cut this out. Is it possible that I— that we do a, uh, podcast thing? I could load this on mine and swapsies and share. Of course, because, uh, that will give you guys a fair bit of traction. And, uh, yeah, absolutely would love it. I'll, uh, we might do that.

Tommy: So we might share this podcast, then my audience can connect with you, as long as we get a few, few, uh, free Max's Protein Bars.

Craig: I tell you what I'll do, I'll give you both a Maxine's Burn Bar because you're both carrying a little bit around. Can I get that?

Josh: That 2.5 kilo drum that they were talking about.

Craig: I'll get you one of those pink vinyl dumbbells, you fucker. Thanks, Craig. Thanks, Craig.