Mainstream media's Trevor Long

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone, episode 72, and we're excited because we've got, uh, another guest, our fourth guest.

Tommy: We'll probably stop counting when we get past 5 or maybe 10.

Josh: We're officially a, uh, a guest show, it feels like.

Tommy: Yeah, welcome to The Daily Talk Show, Trevor Long.

Josh: Trevor Long, how are you? You're in Sydney.

Trevor: This is an outrage, didn't make the top 3.

Josh: I know, for, you know, it's, uh, yeah, we're, we're leading to, uh Um, yeah, we're building up on the guests, but as I said that, I'm like, Jesus, doesn't sound good for Ryan John or the work experience who came before. But no, Ryan was good.

Trevor: I enjoyed that episode immensely. So the weird thing about the Ryan John interview is I did a radio spot with him a week earlier, and we, he, you know, followed me on Twitter and whatnot, and I watched that adoption video 24 hours before I heard the podcast.

Tommy: It was classic.

Trevor: Weird, it all came together at the same time.

Tommy: So Trevor, tell us from your side, because Josh makes up a lot of storeys of how he's met people. It's his imagination. It's what he learned in primary school. If you've been listening to the, the show, how do you guys know each other? Because that's where the connection lies.

Trevor: Wow, that's a great question. I think Josh and I came across each other. I think I followed Josh, he followed me back, or vice versa. I'm a tech guy and Josh has always loved his tech. And I think we might have connected early on actually testing this software that we're using right now to record.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: Well, it's good. He's like, mate, can you just help out? And we talked for like an hour. It was like, it's not the Josh Talk Show. It was just gibberish.

Tommy: 45 minutes of Josh speaking is pretty much what you'll get there.

Trevor: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: Because I think back then you were doing Josh Speaking. You were trying to find ways to do this stuff. I've been podcasting for like 8 or 9 years. So maybe you're asking the question of, you know, what sort of technology do we use? I honestly don't have a great memory.

Josh: Yeah. Either do I. Awful. It's, I think there's Twitter, you have Twitter friends and it's just people who are doing, you're sort of in parallel lives, you're doing things. I think I was doing Melbourne Geek, so obviously following everything that is tech and Trevor's a big part in the tech community in Australia. And yeah, I remember the specific time that we spoke was using this tool before I interviewed Austin Kleon who wrote Steal Like an Artist. I wanted to make sure it was all good. And I could—

Trevor: it was just a guinea pig.

Josh: Yeah, there was only one person I could think of who could handle the, uh, the tech.

Tommy: But the biggest compliment Josh can give you is if he actually buys your domain, your name. So trevolong.com before you do. Did you do that?

Josh: No, I haven't done that.

Trevor: I haven't done that. I got in way early. I've got all my kids' names, I've got everything.

Josh: So when did you buy your first domain? Do you remember?

Trevor: She's, uh, that's back in the Melbourne IT days before the bubble. Um, I was selling domain names. I I was selling domain names in the late '90s. Great storey in a radio world. Chris Murphy, the manager, owned 2SM in Sydney and I was selling domain names and I was in the radio game. So we came across each other. He bought, I'm going to say, 250 domain names off me. Like it was intense. I bought a BMW. It was stupid. Like Rock and Roll Radio, Beatles Radio. It was a great deal. I was just, yeah, I was buying domain names crazy.

Josh: So you were a reseller, were you?

Trevor: Yeah, I just got a reseller account with Melbourne IT and, you know, just set up a website.

Tommy: What was the most impressive domain that you bought and then sold off?

Trevor: Yeah, see, I've not done well buying and selling my own. I've just, you know, resold others. So it was really Chris Murphy stuff like Rock and Roll Radio, Beatles Radio, and he had a few. Rockandroll.com.au back then was big. But I've kind of worked as an agent for a few people in selling because no one knows how domain names work. So I've had a few long-term clients who I've just kind of helped, you know, either buy or sell their .coms. Yeah. You know, like I bought eftm.com last year. I spent like $2,500 on it because someone owned it and I hated it. I hated that they owned my name.

Josh: So you got the .com?

Trevor: Yep.

Josh: Oh, that's great. So EFTM, Everything For The Man. When did— how did that come about?

Tommy: That's your business, right?

Trevor: Yeah. So I had a website called Your Tech Life, which was just, you know, jibbering about tech because PR companies in the tech space want something tangible to give to their client. And I was on the radio and they'd say, did you review that thing we sent you? And I'd be like, yeah, like 3 weeks ago on the radio. Oh, can we get a clip? No. What? So I'd write everything up on the website and there's just so many tech websites back then that I kind of went, maybe we need to do something different. So there's a couple of guys that were around that were kind of either freelancing or not in full-time jobs. And we started it, we just went men's lifestyle. It's a niche that hasn't been fully cracked. And we started Everything for the Man and registered that .com.au. And it's been going now for 6, 7 years. And yeah, I'm just a brand snob. I really want to own everything about the name. So I found a bloke in China that owned eftm.com and he wanted $20 grand. I got him down to, I don't know, $2.5 or something. Not bad. Completely rebranded since.

Josh: Yeah. $2,500, I think I would definitely buy a domain name for that.

Trevor: For a 4-letter.

Josh: Yeah, that's awesome.

Tommy: If you'd established a business also, it means a bit more.

Josh: Makes so much sense.

Tommy: So, that's Josh's connection with you. I have a connection with you, but it's not in that way.

Josh: Yeah, it's a very— You were telling me this before we connected. It's a very soft, soft, soft connection.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a connection nonetheless. I think I trolled you. Was it on the internet? Troll, not meaning threatening your life or telling you you're a piece of shit. A very light troll. And I don't even know what— like, I don't send out— I probably don't comment on things, but what I did say, you know, I'm a big drone flyer. Yeah, I've got my drones, I make my videos, and I just remember this one. I remember it because I remember your logo, and I remember your logo because you'd put it over a video of the Bunnings guy. The Bunnings guy. And I remember I just like For some reason, like I'm a triggered content creator. Sees anything of mine somewhere else, I'm always, you know, what the hell? Rather than going, that's cool, that's getting out there. And I saw on, I think it was the video I saw of the drone. So basically backstory, a guy made a video of him buying a sausage from Bunnings using a drone, and he was sitting in his spa and he sent it from his house down to Bunnings to get it anyway. There was your video with the watermark on it. Yeah, I must have said something like, um, no, uh, no, I can't even remember.

Josh: I remember because you—

Trevor: I can tell you what I would have said: get fucked.

Tommy: You were more polite than that.

Josh: I, I feel like, I, I feel like the, um, uh, I feel like there's been a progression of Tommy on, on social media.

Tommy: What did I say? What do you think?

Josh: I think it was, it was something around— I think you were just, um I, I, if I was to deconstruct it in a big way, I think TJ has pushed back on any sort of, uh, sort of media, you know, like you do your current, you know, your Current Affairs bits or Today or whatever it is. And Tommy, uh, has a little bit of fucking this deep-seated hate because he never made it onto TV. And I think that what I think it was, was I think that It would have been the logos. I think that the— because you would have done the— I think from memory you did the logos like Channel 9 or A Current Affair does.

Trevor: Right over the top.

Josh: Exclusive right over the top.

Trevor: Yeah.

Josh: And I think Tommy was triggered as a hashtag content creator.

Trevor: See that guy?

Tommy: You've stolen it. That's what I think I said.

Trevor: Made this video and he emailed me and goes along the lines of, of, of been— Casser have commented on my YouTube video saying I'm in trouble. And I had a look and I went, that's genuinely Casser, you are in trouble. And I rang him and I said, mate, just so you know, you're fucked because I know the rules pretty well and it's wrong. You're in trouble. And so I immediately downloaded the video because I knew he would delete it. And he did. Downloaded it. And then I wrote a story. And see, the great thing about being in the media is you've only got to know like 3 people. And I just sent it to like 3 people and I got it on. It was on The Age. It was on the telly. It was on every website. But which video did they embed? Because it was gone. So I put my Facebook, I put it on Facebook, got a mate of mine to do the— I was somewhere else. I was like in the country and I just got a mate of mine to quickly put the logos on, upload it to Facebook. And I think it went to like a million views. And, you know, I'm like Josh, I look at it, I look every 5 seconds at video views. This thing went crazy before he then sold the rights to a viral company.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: And then they went, they went around and took it down from everywhere. But by then I'd had my glory, so who cares?

Tommy: And I'd already trolled you. And you said to me, I remember what you said. It was like, you basically gave the gist of it was getting pulled down, so I put the thing on there so it wouldn't get taken down. And it was like I couldn't actually say anything back to it, and it just diffused my feelings about it.

Trevor: Oh, fair enough. Normally I go to— I like to have a proper argument on Twitter or something.

Tommy: I don't think I went hard. That's why you just—

Trevor: Get me on the NBN and I'll give you a shit.

Tommy: So we're best mates, Trevor, by the way. That's how we're best mates.

Josh: So, Trev, do you, do you call yourself a journalist? And what, what— okay. And so What is a tech journalist versus what you do?

Trevor: Yeah, I call myself a technology commentator purely because I'm not a journalist. I didn't study to be a journalist, and I think it's insulting to people who went to uni. I didn't go to uni, so I can't spell, I can't— I don't have good punctuation if you read my website. So I don't want to— I don't want to be in that bucket, right? So that's the main thing. And secondly, my life is about opinion. I'm not here to provide balanced and articulated arguments. I'm here to go, That's shit. This is good. You know, journalists aren't meant to do that. So yeah, that's why I do that. And journalists don't get paid very well either.

Tommy: Yeah. And I mean, journalists can't tell someone to get fucked, but you can. Yeah, exactly.

Trevor: See, I don't work for anyone. I'm not employed by anyone. I, up until only a few weeks ago, had a radio show on the Macquarie Network, and I still felt a little bit like I couldn't speak about, you know, that network. I had to be a bit careful. Now I'm unencumbered. I'm just fuck you, screw you. And I'm just— and if someone comments on our website, um, like the guys at Gizmodo and stuff, they're like, oh, we have to be really delicate around commenters and they have to moderate and give people warnings. I just say, mate, you're fucked, go away. And I love it. Why not?

Josh: Absolutely. And it was— it was it a progression? Did you ever— because I know when I was going down the path for a little bit in that sort of tech commentary space, and then I just realised from a video point of view I just sort of chased the money in some regards in making corporate style branded content because I could make a lot of money doing that. I still absolutely love the tech stuff and I think if you're in that 1%, if you're, I admire you because you've got your finger in a million pies and I feel like that's sort of an approach that you need to have doing this. Was it, what's been the progression? Did you ever, really want to be that tech journalist or?

Trevor: No, I mean, look, the thing was I was, I feel like Josh and I are very closely connected other than the fact that he actually lost the weight. I, you know, I was kind of a nerdy-ish at school. You know, I had a Casio calculator diary thing that had all my contacts in it at school. You know, I was a nerd, right? But not super geeky, like not into Star Wars. So I liked technology and I, like most nerds, you're the guy that your family go to for advice and questions. And I was the assistant programme director at 2GB, and there was a guy doing a nighttime show with Brian Wilshire Thursday nights, 9 o'clock, called Chip for Brains. And he was awful. He was taking calls from listeners. He was just saying, I'll look it up on the internet every time. It was just awful radio. And I just went, Brian, mate, he's got to go. I rang the bloke and said, mate, sorry, mate, we don't need you anymore. We're moving on. Brian Wilson said to me, what am I going to do now? I've been doing this show for 20 years. I went, mate, I'll come in and give you some tech news. Sat down to do tech news at 9 o'clock and Brian Wilson goes, well, here to take your calls for the next hour, Trevor Long. And I went, what? And mate, I loved it. It was like drugs, uh, you know, chatting to people, especially oldies, you know, because I was listening to talk radio. That was 2007. I've been doing it ever since. I just love talking about technology, love helping people with technology, and you know, you're like, 10 years is quite a long time. Most of the people in the game haven't been in it for that long. And it's literally a narrow progression. 8 years ago, I started doing A Current Affair because one of the producers there heard me on the radio. So they went, you could give comment. So I've been doing that for 8 years. And then someone at the Today Show asked me why they couldn't use me. And I went, why can't you use me? Yeah. And they go, oh, because you're on A Current Affair. I said, fucking, there's nothing here that says you can't use me.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: And so I started doing that and It's weird because A Current Affair is like a million viewers, Today Show 300,000, 400,000. Since I've had the Today Show, skyrocket. It's just, it's the thing.

Tommy: That's awesome. I find the TV landscape funny. I had a guy who tell me the other week, Josh, you were there. He's got a Netflix show and he said to us, don't do TV, get out because it's dead very soon. And he's a guy who works in Hollywood and whatever. At the top of the new landscape of television.

Trevor: Bob.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, Bob. That's who I'm talking about. Robert Taylor. Yeah. Anyway, what's your thoughts on television? I know, you know, you work on it. You're on the Today Show quite a bit. But what's your thoughts on the landscape?

Trevor: The landscape is changing fast. But, and so that's why I'm fingers in every pie, as Josh says, you know, I'm ready to make video on any platform. And I, I think there's a solid business case today for content that is across both subscription like Stan and catch-up and free-to-air. But the problem is with people who are naysayers, there's still hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people watching free-to-air. It's not just suddenly going to stop. It might evolve away a bit. But while ever you have this ability to just press a button on a TV and it just works, there's no buffering, it's not using your data allowance and all these things. TV's still got a reasonable life ahead of it. Is it 5 years? Is it 10 years? Don't know. But the evolution is probably at its height right now because I watch what most of the, I guess most of the TV companies are doing. Channel 7 is probably the best innovator, I reckon. Clive Dickens is their chief innovation dude. He's got some crazy good ideas. And you look at what they're doing, what they did with the tennis, look what they did with the Comm Games. They're ready to provide content across any platform. I think Foxtel is the same. Most people hate them, but their, their IP, their streaming offering is pretty darn good. So I think we're ready just to consume it in a different way. TV will just become a streaming thing. It just won't die. It'll just start streaming instead of being broadcast.

Josh: Yeah, it feels like there's the thing that I've learned over the years is shit takes way longer than you expect. Yeah.

Tommy: Like I remember, as you said that, I just looked out the window watching a dog take a shit.

Josh: It's very timely.

Tommy: Sorry about that.

Trevor: The other thing is social media is a bubble. We— and it gets described that way, but like it really, really is. You know, I see people talking about crazy things and this is an outrage and that's happening. But mate, you walk through your local Westfield, go to Chadstone, wherever you go on, and people aren't talking about that shit. They don't care about it. And, you know, as egotistical as it sounds, I don't have people come up to you going, oh, cool, saw your tweet last night. No, they say, saw you on the Today Show yesterday.

Josh: Yeah, it's just—

Trevor: it's still Mainstream media is called that because it is still massively mainstream. Massively mainstream.

Josh: And also, I like broadcast. I think like social media versus broadcast media is a different beast. I think that podcast is closer to broadcast.

Trevor: Yeah.

Josh: You know, we're broadcasting to listeners, but then we have our controlled sort of funnels where people can come in and contact us. They can email us. But I actually, yeah, I like that I don't have to worry about comments on every— if we got comments on every podcast episode we do, we do.

Tommy: Trevor sends them through.

Trevor: But see, it happens, right? I did a podcast called Your Tech Life for 8 years, 6, 8 years, can't remember, but like 380 fucking episodes or something. And it was me sitting in my little man cave here. People would email me, I get a lot of emails asking for advice, but I don't reply to them because what's the business model in that? That. Yeah, so I call them, record the call, and make a talkback show out of it. But then I was doing this nightly talkback show about technology, and I'm like, fuck, I'm just doubling up here. So I killed the show, I killed the old podcast— stupid thing to do now that the radio show's dead— but killed the podcast and converted it into a new show called EFTM. And people are loyal, like loyal podcast listeners are not happy. I still get tweets from a guy in Melbourne who is unhappy that we started swearing in the podcast, unhappy that we're talking about cars. I'm like, dude, I made it very clear I did an emotional last show. You heard that it was over.

Tommy: Move on.

Trevor: I said, mate, just unsubscribe. I'm not going to change because of you. But you have this loyalty and that's the great thing about podcasts and that it is podcasts are the closest thing to our broadcast medium, that being radio that you can find and that it's my favorite. Podcasts are my favourite medium, although I don't listen to many.

Josh: So yeah, weird.

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show though.

Josh: Yeah, it's, it's the Yeah, I do feel like the audience stuff is interesting. My approach has been build slowly, not trying to, you know, we could try and cast our net super wide and get a big audience, but I think they'd fucking hate us. Um, whereas people slowly trickling in and this slower growth feels like we're actually building an audience of people who maybe like us.

Tommy: It's also the way that we're sort painting the narrative. Because you look at Ryan John on that last interview that we did about not being— not choosing your audience really, and they choose you because of something.

Trevor: He made some really good points there because like you have something go— like we— our most viral thing at AFTM was I did a Today Show segment about the new Commodore. Now the new Commodore was announced 2 years ago. The shape of it, the look of it, the fact that it's not rear-wheel drive, the fact that it's not a V8, this is all Not news, but I had them at Channel 9 and I was announcing the pricing. So I did a deal to be the— to announce the pricing exclusively. They didn't put it on the internet, so I asked them for a copy of it. I put it on my Facebook page. Fuck me. Like, just the hate is unbelievable. But it's reached like 2.7 million Australians. It's gone like, in my world, that's crazy viral.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: And, you know, I'm inviting every one of them to the page, you know, like invite, invite, invite. And now it's like, well, they're going, what's this tech shit? So yeah, I'd much prefer, like you, Josh, to grow slowly. I say to the boys that work with me now on AFTM, and this is all just a hobby for us essentially. It's a long game, boys. This could be a multimillion dollar thing for us one day, but we can't just pretend that we can just flick a switch and, you know, spend millions of dollars on advertising and have people come to the site because they probably wouldn't engage with it. We prefer to grow organically and build an audience. And if that takes 10 years, who gives a shit? Yeah, what does that matter?

Josh: And we do it. And I think the thing is that it is like so fun. Like I enjoy, like I was thinking about it the other day, but there's nothing that I enjoy more than doing what we're doing right now, even beyond making videos and all that sort of thing. Because this right now, like we are making the thing, we're having a conversation. It connects all of the things that I really love together.

Tommy: Well, business owners, I'm feeling this right now. I was thinking as you're saying that, looking down in Trevor's eyes through the webcam, I was thinking like, this feels really good. And I think it feels good because we're in the doing. When you're outside of it, you're thinking about it and you're thinking about cash flow and, you know, numbers. And it's like, that's where you start feeling— that's where I get the anxiety or the feelings of unknown, because it is all unknown, right? We're talking about shit that we actually don't know because it could all change tomorrow. You know, we don't know.

Trevor: You know, the number one things that you guys cut through with, in my view, and I've spoken to Josh about this, is when you are, you do end up in a bit of a D&M, like it's just two of you gibbering, but then you start talking about stuff that's like got cut through on your next project or whatever. So you're talking about how to make something work a certain way, or you're talking about your experience in a certain way. It's those things that I think that people connect with on podcasts. Now there's certain types of podcasts. There's a lot of those interviewing people for their career style podcasts. And we on EFTM, we're just starting a series of interviews and we went because Chris Bowen, who I do it with, he worked with Hadley for 15 years. I worked at 2GB for 20. Like we've got some solid, like you look at your phone book, we've got some solid contacts, you know, you can call and I go, we could call some pretty cool people and get them on the show, but I don't want to interview them about their life. I want to go, what's your favourite car? What fucking car do you want to own?

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: Like what technology do you use? I want to make it thematic. So we are, EFTM is about tech, cars and lifestyle. I want to find a way to tap into people and just get people thinking about technology, cars, and lifestyle stuff. So rather than having to create just another interview series, that's what we'll do. And I think you're doing that. It feels to me like you're doing the same thing. We're just going, well, it's just, he's a random person that we could have a great conversation with. And it doesn't have to be the storey of their life. It doesn't have to be how they became who they are or whatever. It's just connecting on a simple level.

Josh: And it doesn't have— I think that there's been a push, you know, something that I was really into, which I'm starting to push back on, is the content around morning routine and what you do. Like, I think that we've, you know, we enjoy maps, we enjoy saying, okay, what is the exact, you know, my favourite race car driver or whatever it is, what is— what time do they wake up? How much, you know, water do they drink in the morning? Especially in, you know, certain industries, that's especially in health. That's a really big thing. And I just think that I've just heard the same shit over and over and over again. And so, a lot of those podcasts that I was enjoying and even the sort of stuff that I was creating, I think that it's gotten a bit old. So, I like, you know, Trev, what you're talking about is essentially like it's putting a new filter on things. It's saying, okay, well—

Trevor: I think Osher Gunsberg is a great example, right? It's an unbelievable series of interviews he's done over a very long time with amazing people. But I subscribe to Osher, I subscribe to WTF, I subscribe to a lot of podcasts, but I don't listen to them all. I just go, I go to recognise a name. I don't actually want to— it's terrible— I don't want to find out about someone I don't know.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: So, but when he, when he has Peter Fitz talking about Australia Day, I'm thinking, ah, Fitz is pretty— I'll listen to that. Um, when Rachel Corbett does a thing called You Gotta Start Somewhere, great media podcast, it's media people talking about how they got got to start. Not really interested in— if I don't know you in the media, I've never watched you, what interest is there? But had a great time listening to the Chris Bath talk for an hour because she's got a really interesting storey to tell. So I think people have got to accept as a podcaster that it's not going to be every single episode is going to have the same trigger numbers. Some things are going to be more popular than others. And I think that if you create such a niche, like for me, I want people to be consistent every week. Because I sell ads. I need the numbers to be the same every week. So that's why we went, if I interview John Burgess about his career, that might be interesting to people over 35, but for people 20 to 35, they're going to go, who the fuck's Burjo?

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: So they're just going to switch off and not go. But if we introduce a bloke and talk about how he likes cars and stuff, they might get a sense of it and, you know, they won't actually tune out. So you've got to find a way to maintain an audience when you build it. That's the bigger challenge on the internet.

Josh: And it's also that common thread. I think that people— what I want to try and do, and it's a very— it's a much smaller game, but it's the common thread is Tommy and I, and we're bringing people into our world. And you can talk about the things that we've been talking— it's like any other daily talk show, but now we've got a new voice and a new perspective that we can ask questions. And that's where I'm excited. Like, I actually— for the one of the first times actually I used my notepad, Tommy, you'll be proud, writing down notes with little things that I've always, you know, been curious to ask Trev. And it's like a perfect platform.

Trevor: Number one way.

Tommy: What is— Yeah, no, so segue, Josh, great segue.

Josh: So Trev's—

Trevor: We can all feel it lulling.

Josh: For a lot of people, Trev has the—

Tommy: Trev's gone, I can't see him anymore.

Josh: He's got the dream job, right? Because he's working for himself. But also, Trev, over the last, especially I think probably over the last 4 or 5 years, maybe even the last sort of 3 years, you've been very active in that sort of covering Apple, going to the press events. So, that's my curiosity is around specifically the Apple events. So, if you're not aware, when the new iPhone comes out, hip, you know, in Australia, uh, basically, uh, if you put it on the TV, if you listen to radio, probably 9 times out of 10 Trevor's gonna have wedged himself in talking, talking about the new device. How does that come about? What's the experience like? And just break down the, the business model in it. Are you a freelancer that's then selling spots on all these things? How does it work?

Trevor: Wow. So there's like an hour there, but let me break it down. So first and foremost, it's all about relationships like Apple. So Apple don't have spokespeople. So when Apple wins, but their phone numbers are available everywhere, their PR numbers. So if a radio station rings Apple and says, you've launched something new, can someone talk about it? They go, no, but here's Steven Fennec, here's Trevor Long, here's these people that have seen the product. So that's why they need people like us because they need people who can talk about their product. I, you know, I basically built a relationship, as you have to in the PR world, with the Apple team. You know, coffees every 3 months, you know, just trying to catch up, see how we're going, review products. You know, you just— you're at the bottom of the list, you know. If the tech list is 100 people, you know, I've been at 100, and I've worked my way up through the ranks. And you just go, I'll review this. I'm happy to be, you know, 16th in line for the new iPhone or whatever. And then over time, you start picking up the odd gig. And so 2012, um, iPad— I think it was called the new iPad, um, was launched and was about to be launched. And I got an email which said, you're invited. And I went— and I'm on Twitter and The Verge and everyone's posting a picture of the invite. I'm going, oh, well, the invites have gone out. And then I got a phone call from Apple and they go, so can you come? And I went, what do you mean? They go, you got the invite. I went, oh, that was for me? I'm like, I thought that was just, you know, announcing it. And so that was, that was my big break essentially because they had determined for whatever reason that they should bring me. They take between 3 and 5 people to every event from Australia.

Josh: And so this is in Cupertino or where?

Trevor: Cupertino, San Francisco. That one was in San Francisco at the Yerba Buena Center. And so I'm a duck out of water. I don't know. I'm just okay. I'll take the ticket. It's business class. Great. Shit. You put me up in a hotel and you— I'll talk about the event in a second. But essentially then you turn up and there's 4 other people there. Pretty much guaranteed there's always someone from News Limited, always someone from Fairfax. There's normally one person from each of at least two of the TV networks, and there might be some extra person. So there's— it's a very small— it's a club, right? It's a very small group of people. And there's no doubt that Apple spends time essentially vetting those people, understanding, you know, am I going to be a hater? No, I'm not. I don't hate on any product really. I just, you know, give basic opinion. So they basically spend time working out how much reach you can get, and essentially radio doesn't even factor into their mind, unfortunately, because I'm spending years going, I'm on, I'm on 50 radio stations, this is big. They're like, yeah, TV. So that's essentially why I work so hard to get A Current Affair and then the Today Show is because it's, it's critical to all these companies. They want television coverage. So once you're in that, in that group, if you can crack TV or, you know, Fairfax or News Limited, you're going to be one of the people invited. There's no guarantee. I don't know that I'm going to go to WWDC in a few months from now. I'd like to think I'm a huge chance of an invite, but no guarantee. My wife and I just planned a holiday in October. We planned in October because there's a big chance of an Apple event in September, as every year with an iPhone, but no guarantee I'm going to get an invite. But, you know, there's an assumption at my point. So once you're there, it's phenomenal because it's not like you get the red carpet treatment. There's 1,000 journos and you've still got to, you know, sign up and register for your media pass. You got to get to the event 2.5 hours early and line up for an hour. You stand in like an anteroom kind of thing. Then, you know, having bloody canapés or breakfast for an hour before they let you into the theatre and you sit for an hour.

Tommy: They're only feeding you apples. That's all you get.

Trevor: Just apples and apple juice. And then the event's on and the keynote ends and then it's just a rush because there's always what we call a hands-on area where, you know, the products are and everyone's trying to take photos. But at that point I'm pretty much on the radio. So I tell every radio station I possibly can that I'm available because I want to deliver extraordinary coverage because I want to get invited to the next one. Yeah. And when I say extraordinary, I don't mean positive. I just mean on as many radio stations and as many TV spots as possible.

Josh: Far reach.

Trevor: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then I send them an email afterwards going, here's what I did. And they'll go, wow. Business model-wise, mate, this world is not made for money. This is not a money-making exercise. If you want it to be—

Josh: It's a good business model for Apple, isn't it? In a lot of ways, it's great.

Trevor: I mean, they are— up until 18 months ago, they were the only company who could get essentially a news storey about themselves. I can ring the Today Show and say there's an Apple event. They'll say, go. If they don't want it, then I'm not going to go. You know, LG, Huawei invited me to Paris a couple of months ago. I just looked and went, Today Show don't give a shit about your phone. It's not going to happen. So I'm not going to go. LG has phones. Yeah, they do. Great phones. Just no one knows about them. Samsung has broken that nexus now. Samsung have a couple of events a year. They'll now get that same level coverage that Apple do. So that's a real shift for them. And so these companies want to, I guess, essentially wine and dine. They take you, fly business class, they put you up a nice hotel. They want you to go to dinner every night. I don't do any of that stuff because I hate socializing. I just hate dinners.

Tommy: You and Josh are very similar.

Trevor: It was a great excuse because I had a radio show in the evening in Australia every night. I'd be like, I got to get up at 2 AM, so I can't come to dinner. So I need a new excuse.

Josh: You know, business model-wise, people won't.

Trevor: Yeah, it's, you know, I don't make much money out of the media essentially. You know, I do okay, but it's not a full-time job. It might partly pay my mortgage if you look at it that way. But essentially being on the radio or on the TV doesn't make you enough money to live. Yeah, right. Doesn't make you wealthy.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Unless you were Jules Lund who was on Getaway. Did all right.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: Okay. That, you know, if I, if I had my own show, maybe. But you know, making appearances. So all the people that you see, you know, talking about finance or whatever, whatever, they've all got a side game that's got paid where the real money—

Josh: Scott Pape is a perfect example, right? Where it's Barefoot Investor who you can, um, yeah, you, you've got a niche. So his niche is finance and his— and it's almost what you're describing is similar to what a lot of authors talk about, which like you make fuck all money from selling books unless you're like 1%, like Scott Pape, where it's the biggest fucking book in Australia type of deal. But for the most part, what you are gaining is influence, which you then leverage in other ways.

Trevor: Yeah, so if I wasn't— if, if— so if I wasn't— it's— it is this kind of weird trickle effect. I haven't drawn it, but if I wasn't invited to Apple events, I wouldn't appear on the Today Show for Apple events, which wouldn't, you know, have more people wouldn't see me. And therefore I can't charge as much money to be a speaker. Like, I do keynotes and and I stand up on stage and they introduce me as, you know, respected tech commentator. You might have heard him on the radio. I've seen him on the Today Show. You know, that's essentially, you know, better. I make more money out of speaking events in a, in a month than I do out of media in a year. So, you know, without one, the other doesn't work. And it's, it's, you've got to keep it all kind of happy. And then there's a bunch of brand work. You know, I make stupid videos that are nowhere near the quality that you guys would do, but people just want little videos of me talking about stuff.

Josh: And they're paying for your influence, right? They're paying for your trusted voice.

Trevor: I essentially say you're paying for my image.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: As weird as that sounds, I say, listen, you want Trevor Long on that, then the production of the video is nothing, but the cost of me is what's there. So, yeah. So you make money out of those things. You know, a lot of companies just want to support because they know that if I took a job in PR where the money is, which most journos do, I would disappear as a voice for them, and they would then have to re— they'd have to start that whole relationship all over again. So I happily sell banner ads and, you know, live reads in the podcast, and that's how companies get involved in what we do without exerting any editorial influence whatsoever. It's just a nice model where they can advertise, um, and they can have a relationship. My whole business model is relationships. If you are willing to spend money with my website and my properties, then of course I'm going to give you my time over and above someone else. You know, if Company A and Company B want coffee with me and I've only got 15 minutes to spare, of course I'm going to go to the guy that's actually helping me survive. If I can spare another 15, happy to meet the other guy. And you work— it's just a constant balance between, you know, trying to meet people, see new products. If I could easily have coffee with 50 people a week that want to just show me a product, tell me about a new thing, I mean, it's just, it's a lot. It's a lot. There's a lot of gadgets in my office.

Josh: Yeah. A bit of a different question with EFTM, Everything For The Man. In this day and age with gender politics and sort of things that are— so for instance, I remember seeing on LinkedIn some guys getting shitcanned for having sort of a men's club event where they talked about marketing and things like that. Where does it fit into your life?

Trevor: I'm desperate for Media Watch to come on to me. I'm desperate for it to be great publicity because, you know, here's a men's lifestyle magazine. But we We don't actually call it Everything for the Man anymore. Unfortunately, the stickers still say it, but they're old. But happy to say, if anyone's even on the radio, if they say, what's EFTM stand for? I say Everything for the Man. We're a men's lifestyle magazine. But the mantra was always we're a men's lifestyle magazine without the tits and bums. So think Zoo Weekly. But when we talk about a car, we don't need a bikini model to stand in a Lamborghini. We'll just put a picture of the Lamborghini.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Trevor: I want it to be something that my— when I started it, my nieces and now my daughters my daughter and other children can look at without any— like, there's no smut, there's no fucks. They can't listen to the podcast because we started swearing in that early on. But it's not for men, it's just written for men. Plenty of women comment on the site, plenty of women are on the Facebook page, but we skew men. We skew heavily towards men. And I seriously, I genuinely want someone to, you know, knock up about it because I just say, what the fuck's Mamma Mia?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor: They're not really welcoming of me. Yeah. So yeah, it's simply there to track a niche. The problem is men aren't as active on the internet as women are. And I can get super, super controversial there and say it's because men are working and women are on their Instagram, but it's not really. It's just my wife. But, you know, women on the internet are much more engaging. They're happy to comment. They're happy to share. Men don't do that. So it's a much harder market to crack.

Tommy: But well, it's women and Josh.

Trevor: Facebook is why a lot of brands want to deal with us.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: The men's lifestyle, men, you know, the young men 25 to 50 is clearly an important market because we get so many companies going like, why the fuck would you give me a Lamborghini? I'm not going to take a Lamborghini on the Today Show. It's not going to be on A Current Affair. They just want it on EFTM. It's just, it's insane to me that I can get a $700,000 car for a website.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But do they give them to you so you can drive them?

Trevor: Yeah, fuck yeah. We've driven Lamborghinis, Rolls-Royces. I was having an Instagram direct message conversation with the CEO of Ferrari in Australia last week, and he said something to me like, I mentioned Lamborghinis. He goes, well, why Lamborghinis? I said, mate, because I haven't driven a Ferrari in 2 years. He goes, well, we'll have to change that.

Josh: What do you think was the tipping point uh, you know, going back to, to Apple giving you sort of the tap on the shoulder, because I know that Apple is the perfect example. I've got a mate, uh, Byron Cook, uh, who's been on radio for a while, has done a bit of TV stuff for Seven for their AFL coverage, doing some sort of music segment. And he actually did a LinkedIn post where Apple had given him a MacBook to use for the— when he was on the TV, he did a post, tagged the PR person, thanks for this, blah blah blah. And they said, hey, do you mind taking that down? Because Apple very much, uh, they're sort of doing their work, but they're not sort of the classic PR celebration type of thing. So it's all a little bit harder to, to understand and to pin down. But what do you think was the tipping point for that tap on the shoulder?

Trevor: It was something about Channel 9. I mean, I think they saw— so Channel 9 doesn't really— didn't really at the time have a solid, um, I guess, tech person. Charlie Brown has been doing tech for a while, but he's got a kind of TV show on the weekends which is heavily editorial-based. He was doing the Today Show but wasn't really doing a lot of news and other stuff. Um, and I think I did a thing— there's a guy who I still kind of— we're still connected in a similar way that we are. Josh— his name's Josh too— Josh Withers. He's a marriage celebrant now. But yeah, he was a Joshua someone else. Anyway, someone had an iPhone 4S, the 4, the grip, the one that had the grip problem, the Antennagate. Yes, they had the US model and it wasn't available in Australia yet and it was on. It didn't work. You couldn't turn it on, but they had it and I got it off them to borrow them and I rang Channel 9 News and said, I've got it, like, let's do something. And, and so I stood out the front of the Bondi Apple Store and talked about Antennagate. Now it was a controversial thing for them, but it was probably my first TV thing that was outside of A Current Affair. And I think, I think Apple saw it as an opportunity. So yeah, essentially, you know, they went, he's probably going to be able to get this up. They know, they know that people want to cover it. And so essentially they probably looked at it— I don't know, but I assume they looked at it and went, how can we make sure that Channel 9 News will cover it? And they made sure they— that I was there, and they, you know, Robert Penfold was there from the LA bureau, and they connected us. Robert and me and said, Robert, if you need someone, Trevor's going to be there. He will have seen the device. And so I was able to do a thing in the morning news and talk about the device. So I don't know, they're either Nostradamus and they saw the Channel 9 thing coming big time, or they kind of really, really knew what they were getting into. I think, bottom line, TV. Podcast ain't going to get you a ticket out. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: From the sounds of your career and what you've done with AFTM, it's It just sounds like it's your innate passion, technology, and what you're talking about, which— and then do, adding the doing on top of that, that it gets you somewhere. And the lesson from that for me is like, I think about the videos I create and the business endeavours I want to go towards, and I always come back to that. I need to feel it. I need to feel like a real interest in this or a real passion towards it.

Trevor: What do you think? If you don't have a passion for it, I don't know how you can do it. I genuinely don't. I think that I don't know whether there's— whether you need the passion for the content of the video, but you certainly have the passion for the creating of the video. So I'm not a, you know, Oprah Winfrey, you know, vision board kind of guy, but what's that vision board in the back that I can see? But you know what, there is my— the door of my office is chalkboard, it's a blackboard paint. And, um, uh, as weird as this is, because I don't read books at all, like you talk— you guys talk about books you've read, I'm like, I don't know, I've never heard of it.

Josh: It's all audiobooks for me. I haven't, haven't—

Trevor: and all the color-coded books behind you, none of them have been read.

Josh: I listened to the audiobook and then buy it as a—

Trevor: I tried an audiobook and I fell asleep and I don't know where I was up to, so the whole thing was lost. But I used to listen to Mark Boris's podcast a lot before it went kind of mainstream, frankly. It just, it lost its rails. But, um, he had it— in fact, a long-term listener of mine, um, who's a policeman, emailed him and said, you know, how do I get out of this and I want to do my own thing? And he had this whole thing, but he said— and I've written it up on the board and it's been there ever since I built this office— it says, prosecute with energy the knowledge you have. And it's not, it's not a holistic thing, but it just says to me that's what I do. Yeah, I've got energy about what I know, and, and I, I, everything I do I prosecute with energy, and it's all about the knowledge that I've got. If, if I don't have knowledge about something, I'll either make it up or I won't do it. Um, you know, you've got to, you've got to have the passion for it, and I think that's why everything I do is easy. I don't— people say to me, what do you do for a job? I said, I don't work. I don't, I haven't worked a day since I left SBS like 3, 2 years ago. It's fantastic. Didn't really work many days when I was there either. But yeah, I don't work. I just happen to have to get up in the morning and really early and go to the Today Show and then come home and spend, I don't know, maybe 2 hours thinking about tomorrow's segment and writing it up. The hardest part is, is actually the off-air stuff. You know, producing a segment is harder than doing it. Talking about stuff's a piece of piss.

Josh: Yeah, I think once you have a opinion on something. I think what people are doing, they see the shiny thing, uh, they see the success of video, and they— but they don't have an opinion or a thought to share. And I think that that is the, the most undervalued, uh, element in, in the conversation for, for most, for most people. So Tommy and I talk about this regularly where it's like there's a big push at the moment, everyone's becoming a fucking life coach. Right. There's so many, like, especially, uh, in this sort of content world, lots of people are creating it. And for us, the people that I will work with are the people who already have something to, something to say. If the first meeting is trying to work out their thoughts on something so they can then create the content, they're doing it the wrong fucking way around. And that's why, like, Just before this interview, I was on a call with a client who's a neurosurgeon. He's got shit to talk about in regards to, you know, around surgery and for patients and all of this stuff. So I can turn on a camera and he can talk shit for 5 minutes and it's a great piece of content.

Trevor: The overlay will be awful.

Josh: Exactly. Well, that's a problem. The overlay is definitely a limiting factor. It's a challenge.

Trevor: Just buy some stock vision of brain surgery. Exactly. But you know, video, see, I find video fascinating because it's, I find it quite easy to make. I find it quite easy to turn on a camera and talk to it. But the problem with Australia, and I say this to a lot of, you know, there's not actually that many young up-and-coming tech people, unfortunately, because I've tried to pay them. I've tried to find them to write stuff, but it's so hard to crack video. You know, I could like my— I did a review of the HomePod, the Apple HomePod, and you know, I would have been, I don't know, let's say one of 50 to have that in the world, certainly one of only 2 in Australia. But you know, I cracked 30,000 on my HomePod review. It's good, but it's not, you know, Marcus Brownlee or whatever his name is getting, you know, 2 million. It's just, we're just such a small country, right? And when I do a review of something and most of the comments are, it's fucking $400, mate, it's not $600, I'm like, fuck off, I'm in Australia. It's just like so annoying because you're trying to crack this. We're a tiny market. We're a tiny market. And I don't want to be global. I want to be— I want to be big in Australia. But yeah, what is big? What number is big? What video view is good for Australia? Because you're always compared against the million views in America, which is 0.2% of their population. If I get 2% of our population, 2% is better than— like, it's just a really hard thing to crack.

Josh: Yeah. And the, I guess the other thing that people do is probably they'll see your podcast or they'll see the website or they'll see different elements of your career and they'll say, they'll attach that as where you're making your money or things like that. Where I think that what people don't realise is it's not as simple as that. It's like, yeah, you might be doing, like we might be doing this podcast every single day. But there's a lot of other ways that we can be actually like, we make no money from this, right? I think that that's fair income.

Trevor: Hang on, what?

Josh: I know. Can you believe it?

Trevor: Who am I sending the invoice to? Is it Terry?

Josh: Everyone charged for an hour? How do you work out your value in the market?

Trevor: My biggest problem in the world is working out my value. And I reckon I'd be a millionaire if I'd have charged what I was actually worth most of the time. Because the number of times you say to someone, you know, I'll do that thing. And then they go, yep. And you're like, oh fuck, should have charged double. Yeah. You just— so I've got a manager for any public speaking stuff because I just can't cope with— someone says, can you do this thing? Can you MC this gig? I'm like, yeah, okay, how much? I'm like, $500. Dickhead, it's $5,000, right? You know, you just— so I've got a great— I just push all that aside. But then like when a company says, what can we do next quarter? Like they've just got budget to I'll go, well, I say, how much have you got? And then I'll just throw a bunch of things in. And I know that I'm throwing too much in, but I just want that money. So I just want to— I'd prefer to lock in the money and undervalue myself than go, well, actually, this is Trevor Long. And for that video, that's the whole budget. Now they may say yes, but I'd prefer to go, fuck, run some banner ads, mate. It's not going to kill you. It's no cost to running banner ads. So lump it up. And they're probably getting me cheap. They're not going to get the whole package without one part of it. So yeah.

Josh: So you package deal it is what you're sort of—

Trevor: Yeah, I have a lot of, so I've got 3 or 4 companies that I go, okay, you can have live reads in the podcast, you can have banner ads on the website, and I'll either make a video once a quarter or I'll do this. You know, there's a bunch of different things you do for people. So with CES, which is a huge tech show in January, I take 6 or 7 people there. One of them is my longtime mate who's a video guy, not as I hope he's not listening. Not as professional as you guys, but just loves making short form. He just loves making short form video, right? And the vlogs are his idea. And there is fuck all happening on those vlogs in terms of viewership. They get much more traction on Facebook than they do on YouTube. But when Vodafone said, what could we do with you? I went, well, clearly you can't, like I can't be sponsored by Vodafone all year round because I talk about Telstra and Optus all the time. So that's just not going to happen, just so you know. Yeah, but I said, I love Vodafone roaming. It's what I use. I couldn't travel without it. They said, well, just, just throw something out. So that's why they pay for all the vlogs. So essentially they pay me enough money to pay Rob to come with me, pay for my airfares to go to these big events because I like going to the big events on my own so I don't have to go to dinner with everyone. I can just say, fuck it, I'm busy. And, and you I'm sure frankly value-wise they might be paying too much for those. But you know, the people that do watch them, they get that branding subtly and over the course of time it works for them. So I think it's a good outcome for Vodafone on that front. Other companies like CES this year, Hisense said to me, they said, we want to own it. I said, what do you mean you want to own it? They said, you know, when you get a car, I put an EFTM buyer magnet, stick it on the side of the car. We said, we want our name on that. I went, fuck yeah. You know, I put your name everywhere except They go, what about on TV? I said, nah, you can't own that. Like, I can't put a fucking Vitalik logo on my shirt. You can't own my editorial output. You can own fucking EFTM's coverage because how else am I paying for it? You know, everyone else is just sponsored by a company who they don't really disclose. We're pretty upfront. I've got a— because we're from talk radio, both Bowen and I, we've been through Cash for Comment. We know how it works. I've got a page on my website which lists every single trip I've ever taken in the last 3 years. And every single company that has had a commercial arrangement with EFTM, not the dollar amount, but, you know, Vodafone this, LG that, whatever. And I'm quite proud of that because if Media Watch call, I say, well, there's a, there's a list, enjoy. Whereas everyone else just puts a little disclaimer, maybe at the bottom of their article.

Tommy: So it's similar to how Hillary Clinton runs her business.

Josh: I think not. I think, well, I think it's hard to, when you, when you're playing this game, when you're doing when you're entrepreneurial and you're trying to make cash in this way, like you've got to do that. You've got to be a business person because like, you know, you need to pay the bill. You need to get to CES somehow.

Trevor: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: It's like the abuse I got, the abuse I got for my Obike video, which someone thought was sponsored and I got paid for that, which you got fuck all, you got nothing. I got $0.

Trevor: And they, yeah, $3 in YouTube revenue.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: That you can't get until you go over 150. Actually, they've pulled the revenue unless you have over 1,000 subscribers or something, some ridiculous thing.

Josh: Anyway.

Trevor: Yeah.

Josh: What would your advice be, Trev, to say the Daily Talk Show, if you're producing this specifically from a monetization point of view, you had a, it's a 5-year strategy. How would you look at it?

Tommy: Take the next hour.

Trevor: Exactly. I go hard on podcasts. I think podcasts should be just radio shows in terms of revenue. Firstly, you know, I'd be on a platform that allows you to monetize. So we use Wooshka and it's weird. I get a cheque every quarter for the pre-rolls that they run.

Josh: I'm like, from Corey Leighton.

Trevor: Yeah, from Corey. And so Rob Lowenthal, who started Wooshka, was the COO at Macquarie Radio when I was there. Lovely bloke. And it's just weird to me that I get a cheque or, you know, a deposit for pre-roll revenue that I don't even know exists. So it's fantastic. It's only a small amount of money, a couple hundred, but it's nice, right? It's nice stuff. But then I just think you've got to find, you've somehow got to find a business a company that appreciates what you do, is happy with the swearing for a start, and you just integrate them. So just like radio, but just live reads. You need to find a way that you can just have some fun. It's like we do with the Vodafone thing, you know, every now and then we take the piss out of Vodafone 5-day roaming and we show an SMS or whatever it is, you know, you just, it's kind of integrated but so blatant that your loyal listeners know that you just got to make some money because no one's going to, I don't know, No one's ever complained to me about the ads in my podcast ever. Yeah, because they know you've got to make money. We're not doing this for shits and giggles. And look at all the other platforms.

Josh: I mean, like, you know, just listen to radio, listen or watch TV. Yeah.

Trevor: And I don't know whether it is— you've got to find a market and then you've essentially got to pull your contacts. You've got to find someone who's willing to give you— and always, I always think low. You know, if you could get, you know, $200 a week, week. That's the two of you, whether it's paying for your Ubers to and from the offices or whatever, it basically makes it a cost-neutral thing.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

Trevor: Then you feel great about it. It's a buzz to know, like 3 weeks ago I had 3 advertisers on the EFTM podcast. Now it's only one because we're in a different month now and I frankly haven't been asked to do any deals for this month. But it's not going to make a difference to me because I still feel good about the fact that there's one advertiser there. I just think that it's really hard, especially with the format of the show, because what is the format? What is the content every single week? You might be in weird territory one day or the next, you know, so you've got to have someone who's not going to have any issues with content. But, you know, it's also going to be a small business, not going to be a Virgin Australia, is it? It's going to be someone who's just willing to throw some money at it and for you to spruik it to a few people. And don't assume that you're going to— my biggest challenge is people go, well, let's do an affiliate deal or let's do link. I'm like, mate, I can't guarantee anyone's going to click it. So no, I just, you know, I assume like people say you should do a live thing and then have an audience. I'm like, no one will turn up. Like, I don't know. I don't know.

Josh: The mantra of nobody giving a fuck, I think, is a good one when you're starting out. But I think that it's like, it is that long game that you talk about. Like, I'm sure your—

Trevor: Your biggest challenge is the long game. I think you've got in your head now you want to get to 100, but if you commit to 100, then what happens after that? And you're starting all over again.

Josh: It's like going back to Josh Speaking where you just, you've lost Well, we've definitely, and I think that's where we've developed over the last couple of weeks after speaking to you about it and even, you know, expanding what we're doing and Tommy and I talking about it. What we've been speaking about is we definitely want to continue it while I'm away. Bree, I know that I'm on to a good thing when Bree's always good at providing a bit of pushback. Back, right? Uh, where it's like, you know, is this worth your time? Do you really enjoy it? But she sees how much I love, uh, doing this. And so, you know, she was saying, how are you going to do it when you're away? Not in the sense of like, you know, the, the sort of sly way of saying you better not be fucking working on your podcast while you're away, but actually like, how can we, how can we make this work for you? So, you know, we'll, uh, Tommy and I were talking about doing, um 4 episodes, uh, a week that we do every week, and then 1 interview that we have already banked. And the way that we'll do that is, uh, twice a week for an hour and a half we do 2 podcasts. So we do like, say, a Monday and a Wednesday, and that will get us basically fresh content for the week. And then we'll have a bunch of interviews because, yeah, I'm committed to— I think that The other thing too is I think about Josh speaking and I'm like, oh yeah, I could, you know, build that podcast up again and all that sort of thing. But I'm really committed to this now and I'm like, I feel the momentum.

Trevor: I think the other thing that we as an industry, I refer to podcasting, and I've spoken to Rob at Wooska about this, is we need a process of, in radio we call it cross-pollination, whatever, but you know, cross-promotion. We need a process where when there's no sold B-roll on the AFGM podcast, why shouldn't there be a promo for the, the Daily Talk Show?

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: Or why shouldn't, um, you know, Rachel Corbett show— like, let's just all make promos. Um, that's what YouTube does.

Josh: I mean, collapse, right, is the biggest, uh, you know, arguably the biggest way of channel growth. And that's what— if you, if you look at any YouTuber, you can basically draw dots to where they've gotten their audience from, and it's the other 4 people. How many careers have been created thanks to Casey Neistat and his YouTube channel?

Trevor: You know, it's frustrating to me.

Josh: What do you— what's your take on Casey? I feel like he does polarize.

Trevor: Yeah, I can't— I like how raw his videos seem, but it just feels like there's 15 people working on behind the scenes, and I just You know, I like, I like it when stuff started that way, but it'd be like in, in 5 years from now if you guys walk in and someone else presses the button and someone else— I just, just feel like you're sitting in a room right now. This is raw, this is real. And I don't know that— I think those, those big YouTube channels have lost that. Um, that's what worries me. It's a scale problem.

Josh: Everyone's got— is everyone one day is going to become fucking Telstra if they get big enough, and then everyone's going to fucking hate you. And that's the thing, like, if you are number one If you were number one of anything, and that's the opportunity to be the Vodafone or the Optus, to be— there is a place for being that secondary podcast or the underdog.

Trevor: Your biggest challenge, and I think this is the message to anyone that's starting anything, is you need to be committed to it. So I say this to Bowen, who loves driving cars for free every week, but, you know, sometimes goes, mate, because he sees that I've given him access to the numbers. And you know what? The number of people actually reading the odd article isn't always that great. Yeah, Facebook reach has just died. So the number of people actually seeing our Facebook posts is so low. And I go, mate, it's a long game. That's our motto, is it's a long game, and we can outlast everyone. I'm happy to be here to outlast everyone, but if we're not in it for the long run, it's not going to work. So you just— I, I don't know how long that long one is. If it's 10 years, it might be 10 years. It's 5 years. But you've got to be there. You've got to stick it out. If you don't show a commitment to audience then they're not going to be committed to you. Your challenge every day of the week is a lot of content. But yeah, I think people that get into it think it's going to be a thing overnight. So you've already got the mentality that it's not going to be a million-dollar success overnight. And the funny thing is most podcasts, I think, are going to find their biggest success in radio. Yeah. The weird thing is that, and I'm happy to say this, I think EFTM, our podcast, we dropped the swearing like 10 weeks ago. And I just go, you know what, this is fun. This is an hour of fun. This is fucking FM radio on a Sunday night. Someone should take this.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: And once I've got enough good episodes in the can, I'm just going to throw it out there because that's where, that's where growth is, which is stupidly weird to say that we're on this new innovative platform, but we're only going to get audience on radio. Yeah, but again, boys, mainstream.

Josh: Yeah. What's that? I feel like that's interesting. It's the, the what's the end game? And I feel like radio shows want to be podcasters and podcasters, you know, want to be radio shows.

Trevor: There's no YouTube person. There's no YouTube person that doesn't want to be on TV. Yeah, that's bullshit if they say they don't. Well, Casey, hello. Sold out to create CNN stuff and it failed.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: Do you know what I mean? Like, it's— that's why I say you asked me early on, Tommy, about TV. I'm sorry, but pretty much everyone doing what I'm doing wishes they were doing in some way what I'm doing.

Tommy: Is that some sort of inbed— like ingrained, like it's this allure of the, you know, shiny, the silver screen?

Trevor: I think it's 50/50. I think it's the allure and I think it's the audience. So until we can, you know, put up a podcast and get 10,000 downloads like that, like a brand new one, people are just going to sample it or whatever. We don't have critical mass. Like, it's all right to have 10,000 one week and then lose them all because it's shit. But to build from zero up to 100, then up to 1,000, and then try and get to 10,000, let alone anything higher than that. I mean, it's a huge drag. Whereas you could go on the radio and do a quick spot and reach 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 people who might go, that was interesting. What do you do with those people? It's just, mate, it's a numbers game and the numbers are small right now. And you've either got to be— my wife, I reckon 6 years ago when we were in a different house and it was literally in the garage. She— I'm sure she said to me at some point, this, this is never going to be your thing. Like, it's never going to be your career. To be honest, if she hadn't said that, I reckon I would have made it my career because it kind of pissed me off.

Tommy: And it's your ex-wife now?

Trevor: No, no, no, no. But it kind of like— so she doesn't get it. She doesn't know what I do, right? And I'm like, fuck that. This, this day job bullshit's going to go. And it was couple of years, but no way that was that going to be true because, you know, and so people say that about making videos, you know, if you're making videos and you're only getting 500 views, well, hang on a minute. I mean, who says that's a bad thing? Those are 500 really engaged people. That's the way I look at every single download is a super engaged audience member. Whereas, you know, if 300,000, 400,000 people see me on the Today Show tomorrow morning at 7:45, How many of them tuned in to see that? Like, saw the promos and went, I'm gonna, I'm gonna watch that thing about alarm clocks. That's what we're doing tomorrow. Um, it's going to be great. Um, you know, whereas people that just came across it. And so yeah, you can't measure the engagement on television, and that's the one thing that it lacks.

Josh: So, so who was Trevor Long? Uh, you know, going back 3 years, SBS, what was employee Trevor Long like? What What would you do day to day? Paint that picture for people.

Trevor: I ended up as the manager of technology, innovation, and strategy, which was essentially a title we created to stop me leaving, you know, 2 years before that. But essentially I was a manager, I was a middle manager, you know, I managed people. I had a good manager like 10, 15 years ago that taught me, you know, coaching and how to talk to people and shit. So, you know, I'm a pretty good manager of people, I think. And yeah, I was just a numbers guy. I was pretty much just a numbers guy at SBS and then, you know, manager of people, whereas Before that at 2GB, I was a content guy, which is why I'm so opinionated about content. I listen to something and go, that's shit. And it shouldn't be on the internet, let alone on radio.

Josh: What were you doing at 2GB again?

Trevor: So I was a producer for many years on sports shows. I produced Ray Hadley on the football and his morning show. And then I became assistant programme director. So assistant programme director, and I produced all of their Olympics coverages and major sporting events. You know, I was, I, you know, I was, I was the guy that had to walk into a talk show and say, shit interview today, guys, do it better tomorrow, or whatever. But, um, and, you know, solve the problems of who's panelling that show and who's on the phones, you know.

Josh: And because SBS, uh, SBS, um, has done some pretty, uh, innovative things, right? Like the, the on-demand offering, you know. What was the internal process in there?

Trevor: Were you involved It started before my time, but they, that, so their strategy was very smart. They, a new TV would launch from Sony or something and they'd want to, Sony would want to announce a TV with content on it. And so they would, because SBS had a platform, they would say to SBS, do you want to be on it? We'd be like, yeah. They'd be like, we need to develop an app. And we'd be like, well, you pay for it and we'll develop it, you know. So essentially they got all the, the platforms to pay for the development of their, of their, of their apps while the backend was was, you know, paid for internally. So it was a smart strategy, got them, you know, on a lot of platforms. They're very smart about the whole, you know, we want to be in every home and every device and all that kind of stuff. But still so cash-strapped and also such niche content, it was never going to massively grow. But the one thing I did heavily, which never really took off but is still on every TV these days, is the Freeview FE stuff, the Freeview Plus stuff, the red button, green button. If you buy a new TV and it's internet connected, you can press the red button and launch NineNow or SBS On Demand. You know, that was like a million-dollar investment from the TV stations to do, but not a lot of people doing it. But it's still cool. Like, my kids do it and I'm like, holy shit, my kids are using that thing that we developed and I don't even use it. Like, this is a different generation. And that, Tommy, is— and you'll notice this when your kid gets old enough to take the remote, but my kids don't watch TV. My kids only watch TV when I'm on and they don't even do that every day, bastards.

Josh: Are they using the monitor? Are they using the TV screen?

Trevor: So my kids are allowed on a Saturday, Sunday morning, they're allowed to get up and come downstairs on their own. No, don't have to wake Mum and Dad up. You just can't come down before 6:30, right? And so we come down there watching YouTube. That's all they do. They open up YouTube and they watch. We've allowed them to watch a couple of channels. There's a guy called Stampy who makes Minecraft videos. So if they're watching something other than Stampy, I can tell because it's a different voice. But Stampy makes fucking The Sims, Pokémon. There's enough. He makes enough content. That my kids could watch him every day. So that's all they watch. Yeah. To the point where my kids, if their screen time is such that, you know, my oldest Jackson is playing Fortnite and the other two have had their screen time earlier, they'll just sit and watch him. Like they're watching people play fucking computer games.

Tommy: I was sitting with a 12-year-old the other day and his dad. It wasn't just me and a 12-year-old. It was, there was a couple of us. And I said to him, mate, what do you want to be when you grow up? And you can guess what he said.

Josh: Yeah. YouTuber. Yes. A YouTuber.

Trevor: They all say it. They all say it.

Josh: Literally, yeah.

Trevor: I want to be on TV.

Tommy: I said to him, what do you want to, what do you want to be known for on YouTube? What's your thing? Like, what on YouTube? He said gamer.

Josh: Fuck, this is where Twitch, Twitch I don't get. I don't get fucking gaming in general.

Tommy: Um, what's the people behind the game, right? Because my work experience girl, she sits in on her lunch break just watching the silliest game I've ever seen. And I said, what are you doing? I'm trying to understand it because that's what I initially think, silliest just— that's the stupidest shit anyone could ever do. And then it's the personality, it's the person. They're really funny. They're actually— so they're just nerdy people who wouldn't be the, you know, good-looking vlogger. Yeah, like that stereotype. They're just Joe Blow who can talk and, and probably is quite funny and just says funny shit, and then people are entertained. It's bizarre.

Josh: Where's esports at, Trev?

Trevor: Oh, it's about— it's, it's, it's small, but it's going to be massive. Like, right now, the Formula 1 esports series just restarted. Fox Sports are airing tomorrow night as we record tomorrow night, the final of the eLeague, the soccer game. I mean, it's going to be massive.

Josh: How do you describe it for people who don't know what eSport is?

Trevor: I describe it as competitive computer gaming that you can watch. So essentially they want to fill Hoyts Cinemas. Hoyts are building a, you know, knocking down a cinema, just one screen in every capital city to build a stage where they can have people playing computer games. Big screen so you can watch it. And so I'm a Formula One fan. Yeah, I thought this is stupid. And then I clicked on the link and I watched a Formula One esports race and I'm going, fuck, go up, go inside. I'm cheering it like I do a normal race because as a viewer you see it like a TV coverage. Yeah. And as an individual, the competitors, they see it as a driver, like a cockpit. So you never— it's not like you're watching someone play the game. You're actually watching the outcome of the game. It's, you know what, it's quite compelling if you're into the sport. It's quite compelling and they're going to have, you know, TV audiences slowly, but it's, it's, it's going to be online, like YouTube audiences globally. That's the thing, they talk about millions of viewers and shit, but it's global, right? I could have millions of viewers if I had something that went global.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: Um, but yeah, it's probably 5 years from now we'll be talking about esports in sports updates on the radio.

Josh: And I guess that's an opportunity for media personalities too. So maybe 10 years ago if you wanted to be on, you know, the footy show or you want to commentate sport, you'll, uh probably be transitioning to doing this eSport thing.

Trevor: Yeah, like my son, 11, if Fortnite stayed as a game for 10 years, he'd become pretty good at it, and he'd be good at playing it. But that's, that's why commentators are good, right? They're not good at playing it, they're good at analysing it.

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: And so if he can describe and analyse what they're doing and talk me— talk people through it, then bingo, there's a whole new career coming. But again, it's got to reach a critical mass, and that critical mass is mainstream, which gets us back to that original point of of at what point does mainstream and internet cross over, or do they ever? Um, it's, it's a weird thing, but you know, I'm still not convinced that the internet can handle, um, what's your biggest— I mean, I think it's State of Origin, but you know, the AFL Grand Final. Let's say that wasn't broadcast, let's say it was only on the internet. I'm not sure the internet can handle it. Yeah, I'm not sure the internet—

Josh: and you're the advocate of the NBN.

Trevor: Yeah, yeah, I'm not, I'm not even talking about about the NBN versus— I'm just saying, just, you know, people's com— just the whole concept of pumping out a million streams, yeah, 2 million streams of something. I don't know that we're there yet. So, but we've never had a successful mass event yet. Census, hello.

Josh: Yeah, it's— I mean, the problem with that is it's, uh, bureaucracy and systems and security and all that sort of thing. But say, not to use the buzzword, you know, blockchain, but I will, you know, use it— using technology, these, you know, these technologies technologies to try and deliver content or to sort of, to make it sort of scalable without requiring crazy amounts of proprietary servers and systems and all that sort of thing. I think that's, that's what's going to be.

Trevor: I'll tell you when, when the crossover will happen is around contract time for TV networks. So the cost of broadcast is something most of us don't understand. But when I was at SBS, we were doing a deal with Broadcast Australia, the people that run the towers for the ABC and SBS. And this was tens of millions of dollars worth of money being spent, I think, every year just to pump the television signal out. And you're like, hmm, so how long should we continue doing this for? At what point do we go, okay, it's not on there anymore, but if you press this button, it'll be there. That's when it gets crazy. And I, hmm, that's like saying radio is going to stop. I just don't know that that's going to happen.

Josh: I think that it's gonna get to a point, yeah, like the technology that we're using right now. I nerd out and look at, say, something like Comrex, you know, which is a system that a lot of the radio stations use to be able to do outside broadcasts and all that sort of thing. But it's proprietary and it's built for broadcast and it has a broadcast price tag. You can't even find anywhere a price. You'd have to go through a dealer and get all that sort of thing.

Trevor: Yeah, no, $5,000 for the unit that I've got sitting on my desk here. That allows me to dial into radio stations. Yeah, $5,000, that's prohibitive.

Josh: Yeah. And is it— I mean, and it's no different to this. Exactly. And that's my point. I had a tech question, and Tommy, while I asked this tech question, we've got Trevor here, so have a think of a tech question that you can ask. But mine was, mine was actually— it's a little bit tech, it's a little bit sort of lifestyle-y, which I think plays into your strengths. Um, I'm thinking about connecting a little bit more from technology. And when I say that, I mean, you know, I'm so fucking reactive to social media. And Bri and I tried on Saturday where we went without our phones.

Trevor: Yeah, I heard you say that.

Josh: Yeah. It was fucking awesome. I felt great. And I didn't have my Apple Watch. And so, what I'm thinking is on the Europe trip, getting rid of the Apple Watch because it's a clusterfuck to charge. It's just another thing to charge every night.

Trevor: It's another cable. Yep.

Josh: Get rid of the Apple Watch. And I spent 4 hours last night watching videos on the best watch to buy, right? And Bri, I was like on the purchase button. Fuck, here we go. We've got— You're holding up a watch right now.

Trevor: TAG.

Josh: Yeah, what is it? You're going to have to tell me about it. TAG. Okay, well, can I tell you the one that I was thinking? And then, so, I went down the G-Shock rabbit hole.

Trevor: Love it.

Josh: So I have a G-Shock right now, and the thing that I was always annoyed at is— yeah, it's a nice one, but I just— the watch face is pretty small. I want something that's real fucking chunky. So I went and found this— there's a watch that I think it's called the GPW-1000, and like you go down this rabbit hole of like, this is what the pilots use. You can fucking get the time when you press a button and it knows your fucking time zones.

Trevor: Big big black motherfucking thing. Yeah, yep, I've got—

Josh: that's gonna be the title of the podcast. Uh, yeah, Trevor's Big Black Clock. Um, yeah, so look, I'm thinking— so I was looking at the prices and, um, it's a fucking, uh, David Jockers. Yeah, yeah, it's about $1,200. I saw, um—

Tommy: what's your question though?

Josh: So the question is the— around the, you know, is this the right option? Should I be— I can actually get it for— there's like a $900 one can get for fucking $700 because fucking David Jones have a sale.

Tommy: What watch should Josh buy?

Josh: What, what should I buy?

Trevor: So yeah, there's twofold to that. I 100% agree on the switching off thing. In fact, I'm, I'm in the mode to do it now as well. Either— I think I'm spending way too long just flicking through Twitter and Facebook. It's just stupid, right? It's just— and it's also making me angry, so I'm gonna switch off more days than not. So I think while you're on holidays, just stick with Instagram, right? Like it's just such a great way to switch off from the rest. When it comes to watches, that watch is magnificent. Like, so I was lucky for a while there. I had a great contact at Casio, sent me everything, right? I've got G-Shocks till the cows come home, including that beautiful one you're just talking about.

Josh: I wonder if the contact was, yeah, 'cause there was Kyle and Jack's producer, was it Bruno?

Trevor: Yes, Bruno, that's who it was. Yes.

Josh: Yeah, Bruno did a stint at Casio.

Trevor: Bruno Boucher. Was, was at Casio and just hooked me massively up. Like, it was great. I reviewed every Casio G-Shock and Edifice there was. I love that watch. It's big, people notice it, and it's got GPS for time when you're in different places. It's a lot of fun. It's a nice watch. But, and so that I love— it's a crazy thing because, you know, I've got every smartwatch possible, but I would— I pined for years for a TAG. Now, I was in New York a couple weeks ago and I went, you know what, Fuck this, I'm buying a TAG. And I just bought that TAG. Now that was not a $1,000 watch is all I'll say. It was a very expensive watch and I wear it every day. I wear it every day because I feel like I've earned it. And that's the weird thing about this is I could have, I've got Apple Watch, I've got Samsung, I've got them all, but I love wearing the TAG because I earned it. I worked hard and I earned this thing and it tells the fucking time. I went to Chicago with Apple 3, 4 weeks ago and they looked at my, and they're all going, "Bleep, bleep, bleep." And I just went, "Oh, that's for a and watch." they go, what's that? And I went, it's a TAG. And they go, where's your Apple Watch? I went, at home. And that's like, that's an insult to them to not have their stuff while you're on tour. But yeah, I'm like, fuck this, I only got this last week and I earned it.

Josh: Is it mechanical? Because I went in down there. Yeah, yeah, fuck, that's nice.

Trevor: Get it, get the G-Shock. There's— I'll send you a link to another G-Shock, but, uh, that the GPW-1000 is gorgeous. It's a great watch. There's another one that's metal that's just as big, and it's, uh It's a really nice, nice silver metal watch.

Josh: The only thing I have against the metal watch is the fucking scratching up the MacBook Pro, like when you're typing and stuff. Um, but I mean, that's his first world problems.

Tommy: I know, I've been thinking about my question. Um, Trevor, you said you had a bunch of watches lying around. Can I have one? Because I don't actually have a watch.

Josh: You can have one of my old ones.

Tommy: No, I want the Apple Watch.

Josh: I'll give you a few episodes, we'll run a promo of EFTN.

Trevor: Sadly, this is the problem where people say, like, I get a lot from parents, they're like, oh, their teenager smashed their phone, have you got a spare phone?

Josh: Yeah, you need about 200.

Trevor: I've got 200 phones here, right? Easy, I've got a phone for you. They go, have you got any iPhones? No, fucking don't have any iPhones, right? Because Apple stuff, Apple of all the companies play this. They've got the best system.

Josh: They—

Trevor: I emailed them the other day and said I'm doing a segment on tablets on the Today Show. That afternoon, every tablet they've got arrives, but they'll get an email next week saying they're due back. So the Apple Watch that I've got is due— is out for, I think, 6 months, right? And on the day that it's ready to go back, they'll email me and I'll send it back. So Apple stuff, I can't help you with, Tommy. Sorry, mate.

Tommy: Damn it.

Josh: But my, uh, you know who was, uh, would turn a blind eye when it comes to rental stuff. Sonos. My parents still have a Sonos speaker that I had from Melbourne Geek days.

Tommy: Oh, they rented it to you?

Josh: No, they just gave it. They were just— it was for early days. This would have been like 2011 or 2012.

Trevor: The biggest challenge in the tech world in my— this is such a first world problem, but like I get 3 couriers a day, just shit turns up, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Trevor: And the biggest problem is I don't know whether it's going back or not. I'd much prefer to know when you want it back or if it's not going back. If it's not going back, I auction it off at school. I give them away. Like, I don't sell anything. Don't never make any money out of it, but I don't want it here. I've got 3 shelves in my garage full of just shit that I don't know if it's going back. And so once every 6 months I go, righty-o, it's over, people. Donations to the school and the salvos and off you go. But yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's lying around.

Tommy: Actually, we got to wrap up. My kid's going mad. He's running around.

Trevor: I see him in the background.

Josh: Trev, we're gonna have to get you back on at some point. Now that we've committed to doing this for fucking ever.

Trevor: Now that Tommy's moved past his trolling of me, then—

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're all good.

Josh: We can be friends. Exactly. But yeah, where can people find you? I'm guessing eftm.com.

Trevor: eftm.com or just on Twitter as @TrevorLong.

Josh: Yeah, and you've got—

Trevor: And I'll hate back.

Josh: And you've got the podcast too, right? How often do you do that?

Trevor: Yeah, EFTM Podcast. We do that every week. And as I said, we're gonna start an interview series. Totally not copying you, I promise. FTM every week, we're just talking shit about tech, cars, and lifestyle.

Josh: Perfect. Thanks so much, Trev. It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone, and you can send us those emails, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. We don't have any, so that's why I'm not— if Michelle's wondering, that's why I'm not talking about them. Okay. All right, have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.