Pen pals

Josh: Hi Tommy, it's a daily talk show, mate.

Tommy: Were you waiting for me to start?

Josh: Yeah, I thought you could. You're, um, it's episode 71. You're a little bit, um, nervous because you've got— well, not nervous, you're fucking antsy because you want— you've got a meeting.

Tommy: And I've got a meeting, but I've got some fun stuff to talk about.

Josh: Oh, that's good.

Tommy: So we've, you know, there's one thing I learned in radio, it's fucking just show up 'You piece of shit.' Yeah, that's it. Once when I was working in Shepparton, it was probably a couple of weeks into working there, I had a big weekend and then on the Monday I was, you know, at the front up, it's at 4 AM.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So I was feeling a bit worse for wear and then I remember getting some feedback from my mum. 'Oh, you sounded a bit flat.' That's never happening again.

Josh: Well, you got some positive feedback from your mum after the Michelle episode. Yeah, yes, keep on keeping on, I think is what she said.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I think Michelle must have said that. So I think she was saying, because remember how we said, is there anything, any final words? Yeah, I think she essentially said, keep them going, keep it up.

Josh: Oh, that's nice.

Tommy: Anyway, so I took that advice from my mum. I wasn't flat anymore. I didn't stop drinking though.

Josh: So the, yeah, I loved our chat with Michelle. I want to get her back.

Tommy: Definitely.

Josh: I haven't told her that yet, but she might be listening to this. But if, as she was saying throughout the whole thing, we're just fucking scraping at the surface of all these different topics.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And we even, we got an email from Trevor which is like, mate, you start talking about transgender, this huge fucking thing, there's so many questions to ask. So, um, well, you see, it was quite easy to to do 1 hour. Yeah.

Tommy: And if we went down rabbit holes, yeah, we, we would not— we would be back 4 hours later. But I think that that's what I love about long-form podcasts or podcasts, is that you do have time to elaborate on a conversation. But I think it's like, we— there was some great things we talked about with Michelle, and it's probably worth, uh, you know, dedicating 20 minutes to X topic or however long it goes.

Josh: But I think that, that, like, one of the, the things that I was thinking that was in my head where it's like I, you know, reflecting on the Michelle interview specifically, she's got so many interesting bits. Like, she was a fucking— from driving trucks to having like a Linux system. Like, she's got the technical stuff in her life is fucking quirky. If you like that phone, I can't remember what the operating system's called, or the microphone that she's using. And she sent me a link to be able to, you know, help people communicate through her voice. It's pretty— there were so many topics.

Tommy: I think you got a tech semi-chub, didn't you?

Josh: Exactly. I did enjoy the tech side of it. And I think that that was, you know, going into it, I didn't want it to be a— I haven't even spoken to Michelle about this, and I definitely want to, but I didn't want it just to be fucking, we've got a transgender on the podcast, because for me She's actually like, I see all of these fucking interesting quirky things that she does. I told her that she's a bit of a fucking weird unit like me, 'cause she's just fucking like, you know, does things differently and doesn't have, you know, an iPhone, doesn't have all of these things. And I didn't want to just create a podcast that felt like it was leveraging this one thing. You know, that makes up Michelle.

Tommy: Well, if we're playing a short game, that's what you probably do.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But if we're in this for the long haul, so we want people, friends of the show, literally to be on every now and then.

Josh: Well, I just—

Tommy: learning, learning and learning.

Josh: Yeah. And it's almost like, um, uh, not comparing, you know, transitioning to fucking, uh, your O-Bike story, but it's like, it's a bit— well done. Yeah. But I think that, uh, it's— I sort of see it like that where it's like Uh, just like Michelle is much more than a fucking, you know, someone who's transgender, you're like— I think you'd get over people being like, this is Tommy the Obike guy. I think like, so that was, that was my thoughts behind it. I know that, uh, people are asking like, fuck, there's so many questions, like you didn't fucking deep dive. And I sort of— the curious side of me, we have so many questions on so many of the topics we covered.

Tommy: So, what I think Michelle would be proud of is that we've brought up feedback from email in today's episode.

Josh: Even though it's uncomfortable, because it is like, it's uncomfortable in the sense of—

Tommy: What, receiving feedback?

Josh: Yeah, receiving feedback and thinking like, oh, I could have, we could have done a better job at doing that interview. But I think, as you said, it is a long game. We are— And I described it on social media as one of my favourite episodes. And the reason was it was because like it was all of these things. We've got someone like Michelle who we've never met in person before, and we fucking hooked up this conversation. And we're just— We had an hour conversation with, you know, an online friend that we've never met before. And maybe it was a little bit selfish, too. Maybe I was enjoying it as much, you know. Through me, and I just hoped that the audience found some sort of joy in that.

Tommy: Uh, my friend Fitzie, he's been on the— he was on one of the very early podcasts. We just called him out of the blue, right? Yeah, and he blows up. He blows up about a lot of things.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Um, his mum, so she lives in Bendigo. Fitzie grew up in Bendigo. She's had a pen pal since she was 13, and they still write each other letters. She lives over in the States or in England somewhere, one of those two, can't remember.

Josh: Did you say the States or England?

Tommy: Yeah, so very different, but I, I don't know, I, I—

Josh: Near London?

Tommy: I think America's near London. No, but she's had a pen pal for 30, 40 years.

Josh: Have you ever done that before? Nah.

Tommy: Uh, did I write— maybe I wrote my friend in jail.

Josh: That seems like from a pen pal point of view, I straight away went to sort of jail.

Tommy: Well, like, that seems to be always dabbling on working in Shepparton because you can— there's this website that allows you to write to people in jail and form a friendship with them.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so it's like connecting you with people in jail. You can look it up. And we could never do it because it was a bit too fucking edgy. The radio. Yeah, we should do it for this.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it's, um, you know, I, I have a past friend who I haven't spoken to, you know, in probably 7 years because he's now in jail for life in the US for murdering his wife.

Tommy: Oh, you've talked about it on this?

Josh: Yeah, but like, fuck, it's a, um, it's, it's a weird thing because, uh, you know, where does, where does forgiveness, where does, you know You know, am I— is it re— do you think it's disrespectful to the victims of, say, a violent crime or whatever it is if you are communicating with someone in jail? I'm—

Tommy: yes and no, but I don't think it's— it's like humans fuck up. That's a serious one. I'm not— if we were to choose who, who have we got But it's like they've got nothing. So you have a scale, you're in jail for life. Yeah, your life's fucking done.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so I don't think just talking to them— we're not trivialising it.

Josh: Well, and what do you— I guess, you know, this isn't even talking about whether we do it on the podcast, but just in general, what is it that you do you think you would seek to reach out to someone who's in jail?

Tommy: I mean, I it would— I would like to see where their mind has shifted. I was listening to a podcast yesterday of a guy who was in jail in Cairo for 5 years, solitary confinement. Um, Majid, um, he was on Joe Rogan's podcast. Majid, I think it is. Anyway, he was saying he was in there with, uh, terrorists that had assassinated so, um, I can't remember who it was, very— someone very famous, so I'm not going to butcher it. But these were terrorists that assassinated somebody, and they did it because of their religious beliefs, and they have had a full mind shift, so they're not extremists anymore. And so he was saying he learned all this stuff from these people who had, you know, been one place and completely gone to the other. And so I That's what I mean. If, if this person was just like, oh yeah, I don't give a fuck what I did, it's like, okay. But if, if someone has like, you know, come to grips with what they've done and, and is almost sorry for the mistake they've made—

Josh: so your filter would be, I only want the apologetic ones?

Tommy: I want the insightful ones that are actually a bit introspective on, on their actions.

Josh: Yes, because there's probably— I also think that there's I mean, there's no black and white case for any of this type of stuff. But I think also, you know, you've probably got people who are very, you know, emotionally manipulative, maybe, right? That, you know, you talk about paedophiles or things like that in some cases being very much that way. So, the other thing is maybe, I think that I would be concerned that I'm being played.

Tommy: I think it's also what you're going to realize, the context. We're on a podcast, and if we're doing that, speaking to somebody, it's not like we're just looking for a friend and we're vulnerable people. Yeah, I get that though. You could— they could definitely walk all over people. It's like you see gangsters in jail have wives, yeah, they actually didn't meet them before they went into jail. Um, who was that psychopath Manson, or was it Charles Manson? One, some serial killer ended up— oh, what's his name, fucking from Making a Murderer? Pretty sure he became—

Josh: I didn't watch the whole series.

Tommy: Are you serious?

Josh: Yeah, I only got— I love The Jinx, great, uh, we're not talking about The Jinx. No, but Making a Murderer, I was comparing to The Jinx throughout. So I think it was 13 episodes, I got through 4.

Tommy: Okay, so he— I think he becomes— he gets a— he gets in a relationship once he's in there. That's what I'm curious about, those people who do reach out looking for something.

Josh: What's like— you've got to be— I feel like you're a little bit tweaked if you're, um, like, what are you seeking? For me, and maybe this is, um, incorrect, but there feels like there's an emotional deficiency or something in being attracted to people who, uh— maybe that's a harsh phrase, but people who are, can, who are drawn to people who are, who can't fucking spend time.

Tommy: I mean, it's quite easy to judge somebody. I think most people would judge somebody that is doing that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I don't know, I think maybe it is a certain type of person. I don't know. I would like to speak to one of those people.

Josh: And yeah, so I think it's coming from— I think that for this podcast, we want to, um, we want to dig deep into things, and I guess we're I'm trying to create the anti-clickbait, um, and I think that the— but still delve into really interesting topics. And so that's representing people as people first rather than maybe the thing. So questioning my own, um, you know, assumptions around that would be, you know, around these jail people. And I think that what I'm not sure on is if I, if I was a a victim of fucking rape or whatever it was, whether— how I would feel if, uh, the perpetrator who's in jail was getting any form of communication from people or emotional sustenance from the outside.

Tommy: The other side of that is they're a human that fucked up. And I've had mates that have fucked up and been to jail.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And spent a long time in there.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And You know, do they— I saw a guy recently that I knew. He walked past me and he was so big, like had put on so much weight, and he was looking at me. And then I fucking looked up and I was like, oh, hey bro, fuck. I haven't seen this guy in 10 years. He was— he went to jail for about 8 years. Yeah, he was on ice and he ran over an old guy, killed him. Seriously, how fucked is that? And got locked up for like, uh, yeah, I think 7 or 8 years. And I haven't seen him in a long time, and we used to hang out when we were young.

Josh: And yeah, what did that do to him emotionally? Fuck you up.

Tommy: I, I didn't really speak to him after that. He was pretty down a pretty dark hole.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And, um, but I mean, does he deserve to be, um, pushed into the corner of society? Because I guess my fuck-up, but massive fuck-up.

Josh: So I 100% agree The one thing that I wonder is that being the connection point between starting a new friendship or relationship is I'm going to a site and connecting with only people who have done this thing versus, uh, like, what about their older friends? What about— like, I have no idea about this stuff. I'm just questioning, trying to be empathetic to the— I don't think they should— I don't, I don't think the death penalty should be a thing. I don't think we should be doing that.

Tommy: But I think you would, would if someone murdered Bree.

Josh: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

Tommy: Yeah, but, uh, but I think, I think everything in life, if you were to think too hard about it, you would—

Josh: like, what is it? Is it our responsibility though to actually think? Because I think that— so you're saying if you think too hard, you might not do it because you'll feel this way, but but maybe that's the inner being that we need to get to, and that's our true self.

Tommy: Who's our true self? Then honestly, I don't— I think you'd be fine. I think contacting someone for what we're doing, I'm willing to take that risk, and maybe you're not. Yeah, it's like another discussion. The thing is, I know I don't like it, but maybe I might learn once we do it. I might learn, and at this point I don't. And everyone has their opinion on it, right?

Josh: And is it how much—

Tommy: going, who gives a fuck? Contact them.

Josh: Yeah, and I guess like part of it too is it's like, um, Is the first conversation like, why are you in jail? Like, is that the approach?

Tommy: Like, this is life. We can't escape these things. And it's— and I'm a curious guy.

Josh: Yeah, no, well, I'm curious too. I think that it's the, uh, yeah, I— it's the— it's not wanting to turn the wrong way or do something. But I think, I think it's fascinating, and we should definitely keep give it a go.

Tommy: Approach is everything.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, how are you doing it? We're not laughing. Like, that's another thing.

Josh: Or intentions as well, right? Like, if I think that the, the one thing that we do get on this podcast is the opportunity to communicate our intentions.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, talking about letters and stuff, I got a, um, a Facebook post on my wall on Sunday.

Tommy: I think— did you tag me?

Josh: I did tag you in it from, uh, Ian Nottage. Who was my grade 6 teacher who I did the PowerPoint presentation for, who bought me Maccas.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah, kept you until 11 PM.

Josh: Yeah, he said, look what I just found. I think it was 9. Look what I just found, look what I just found going through a box of my keepsake items. And it's like, dear Mr. Nostalgia, so it's in my handwriting.

Tommy: So it's a letter you sent to him?

Josh: Yeah, it's a Christmas card.

Tommy: Fuck nostalgia.

Josh: Dear Mr. Nostalgia, nostalgia alert. Dear Mr. Nottage, I have loved being in your class. We've had great fun, and then I've crossed out fun and written nuff, N-U-F-F, and the reason we did that is because, I did that was because on the very first class that we had with him, he said, we don't have fun in this class, never say the word fun, we call it nuff. And it's like our way of like getting around it.

Tommy: That's cool.

Josh: So, I crossed out fun and said nuff this year. You are a great teacher. And I'll never forget you. From Josh. And then I said, I hope we stay in contact. Email janson.rljjj@bigpond.com. This is in— And that— So, that would have been fucking 2000 or something. And someone commented underneath being like, you had an email address back then? And I actually remember in like 1997 when one of my teachers left primary school and I kept in contact via via email. Pen pals are a fucking interesting, interesting area.

Tommy: Yeah, they're cool. Well, they're less and less probably being done now because it doesn't feel as thoughtful just shooting a fucking Facey message. Yeah, like just a quick email. It's, you know, handwriting something. That— and that's why I brought up Fitz's mum, because he was like always wanting to somehow like surprise her, fly her mum over to visit her, or like bring her out to meet for the first time, like this 50-year pen pal. He was trying to approach the project, I think.

Josh: It's all for content.

Tommy: All for content. Yeah, or I mean, he just wanted a free trip.

Josh: Exactly, he's fucking looking at Ryan John and being like, whoa.

Tommy: So you know how I troll you a lot?

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: And trolling doesn't mean abuse. Trolling could be as something as, um, tagging you in a sponsored post that I'd been pushed and writing, let the retargeting begin.

Josh: So basically what Tommy's referring to is when, uh, you know, when you interact on an advertisement that's been, uh, created by— might be a fucking life coach or something— me being put into that fucking comment will then fucking set the algorithm off, and then I'm going to get a bunch.

Tommy: And I also like their page, so it's always friends of this person who's interacted with these posts.

Josh: What have you done?

Tommy: I've just been— it's, it's backfiring on me because within the last 2-3 days, the— so many sponsored pushes to my account in Instagram. Fucking crazy, dude. I had this one guy, and I actually think these— I actually think half of them are jokes. Like, I think they're like parodies, and I'm not being mean to them. I'm just like It's their approach. It literally— because there's been dudes parroting.

Josh: Yeah, well, and so you're talking about a specific type of marketing, which is the first person talking at you, trying to fucking sell their lifestyle or their thing. What, what are you finding? What sort of people?

Tommy: So I had this one, um, his name was Nick, and the caption says, a good lawyer is one who can wake up in the morning, put on the advocate's robe, and walk into court to advocate on the client's behalf. I enjoy it. In fact, I love it. Look at the photo.

Josh: Oh, fucking hell, it looks like he's about 19, doesn't he?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And then it looks like he's going to court for some sort of drug charge.

Tommy: This is my favorite. I had this video pushed to me, and I looked at the person's username The person's username is Dumped Wife's Revenge.

Josh: Dumped Wife's Revenge. What does that mean?

Tommy: Dumped Wife's Revenge.

Josh: Okay, so this is a lady who's being dumped.

Tommy: Yes, by her hubby. Her name's Deanne Lawrence. Dumped for the younger woman. My revenge. Be fabulous and look fabulous. I want to inspire women around the world to always be their fabulous best. It is crazy. It feels like a parody when you're on it. Yeah, I like it. Hats off to her. She's putting her fucking best foot forward, giving it a crack.

Josh: This is the new haircut, you know, when people would get a, you know, have a breakup, you would get a fucking crazy haircut. Now you start an Instagram page and put some ad money behind it.

Tommy: But my thinking is, why am I getting targeted to— what the fuck am I going to do with dumped for the younger woman's page. Like, it's got nothing to do with me. What are the lawyers like? I think there is— and so two of the things, um, I fucked myself here, um, you know, it's back to right on me. But also too, they, they've got it wrong. Or as in Instagram, they've just opened this thing up, they're just making so much money from people retargeting random people like me. Why would I need that?

Josh: Well, I think that what you've done is you've fucked the algorithm because you've engaged with heaps of stuff that you wouldn't normally— which you are not engaging with it in a positive way, but you're like thinking it's funny. And unfortunately, I don't think Facebook or Instagram have the ability to know the difference between good engagement, bad engagement. And saying that, there is all this sort of sentiment analysis which is starting to happen where it's like, okay, is this a positive comment? Is this a bad comment? And the, you know, telcos of the world like Telstra using that data to say, what do people think of this?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So looking at, you know, the language people use. But, um, the target— would you pay a fee? You know, Michelle was talking yesterday about if she, if she pays for a service, she's less, um, uh, she expects more, right? So if you, if you pay for it, you're not going to be as fucked over. So you pay for your Vimeo, you've got— there's a course of action if something happens. You're a cut— you're essentially a customer. Would you pay a fee to Instagram or Facebook to not receive ads?

Tommy: No.

Josh: Okay, why?

Tommy: I don't think it did. I think for one, I actually enjoy seeing what's going on in the world.

Josh: We're in that business in some regards.

Tommy: Yeah, so it's like it turns into a piece of content for me. Yeah, but, but I, I'm curious to see how other people are approaching things. And then I'm a tight-ass. I don't want to fucking— you know me, I'm the opposite of a subscription. Yeah, I don't want to—

Josh: so I love YouTube Red. That gives me, you know, ad-free type of stuff, and I can play videos without it being on the screen, so I can just listen to the audio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm a bit of a fucking, um, You love a good subscription. You know, I'm busting to piss. It's been 24 minutes. Do we finish it up here because you've got shit to do?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Okay, it's a daily talk show, everyone.

Tommy: It's a little while. Well, yesterday we did an hour, so.

Josh: And the other consideration is, um, uh, Josh is— I'm busting. No, I've been trying to stay hydrated. I'm on this fucking— I've been every morning, I was listening to that Aubrey, the dude, 8 ounces of water in the morning. It's killing me.

Tommy: Drinking 8 ounces?

Josh: Yeah, I'm drinking heaps of water and then I'm having this, having coffee after it. Yeah. And because it's a diuretic, I'm just fucking busting. So, and it just fucking hits me. It's gonna be so annoying when we're in Europe because they all fucking charge.

Tommy: But are you gonna keep it up? Because have you been doing your writing? That's what everyone wants to know.

Josh: Yeah, I haven't opened it in the last couple of days, but beyond that, it's the Daily Talk Show, everyone. Send us an email. You know, maybe we can become pen pals. hi@thedailytalkshow.com, and you can send us—

Tommy: If you've done anything untoward, we don't fucking want it.

Josh: If you're in jail, back your shit. Also, the PO box as well for physical mail, PO Box 400, Abbotsford, Victoria 3067. Have a good one, everyone.