Our Internet Friends | Michelle

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Episode 70.

Tommy: Congrats, Josh.

Josh: Thanks, mate. I was going to press record on the, uh, on the little, uh, box there, but I'm already—

Tommy: Yeah, you're a bit frazzled. We've—

Josh: we— you've—

Tommy: you've pulled out— you've gone to the edges of your brain in terms of technology-wise, and you've managed to— you pull this off, mate.

Josh: Well, hopefully, if we're actually recording anything. But this— so, episode 70, we wanted to do something special, and we thought what better way than get someone on the show who has been instrumental in what we talk about— or if you ask her, we don't fucking mention it at all— and, and, um, and a constant, uh, uh, emailer and thought provoker. Uh, it's Michelle, who you would, uh, you would have heard us mention many times on the podcast. Michelle, how you going?

Michelle: Uh, you talk about being frazzled. It's nearly midnight. I'm almost headbutting the microphone and falling asleep.

Tommy: So Michelle, you're our third guest to our podcast, 70 episodes deep. Um, firstly, I think we should— can you paint the picture of how you've landed on our podcast? Because there's been a few—

Michelle: I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say paint the picture, paint the picture.

Josh: Well, you can draw it.

Tommy: You can draw it with a pencil. Yeah, it's a paint, all right?

Josh: We're just Yeah, go for it. How do you say it? How's this all played out? And go back from the start. Where did you start? Childbirth. Exactly, from the very beginning.

Michelle: Well, it all started with this.

Josh: You've got the— so we've got video at the moment and Michelle is showing the Obike t-shirt, which Tommy, how many did you get made?

Tommy: Oh, I made about 80, but I think that will come up in Michelle's painting. So you've got an Obike, you've got an Obike O-Bike t-shirt.

Josh: Tell us what happened. What was the first— so you obviously heard about Tommy before you heard about me. It just so happens that I'm on Tommy's podcast.

Tommy: Let Michelle do the painting.

Michelle: Well, I was browsing the internet as, as you do, and up came Tommy's video with the O-Bikes, and I thought what he was intending to do with the cause, clean up Australia, and I thought that that kind of thing was worth supporting. So I said, yeah, I'm up for a t-shirt. Next thing I know, we've only got 'Got one left, it's large.' I think, 'I don't care, send it over, we'll see if it fits.' And so you, you, where are you right now? I'm in a village, I'm in a 1,000-year-old village called Horsted Keynes.

Josh: Say it again, Horsted Keynes.

Michelle: Horsted Keynes.

Josh: Horsted Keynes, I nailed it.

Tommy: And I, because I say you're, you're just outside of London, isn't it? But you're not. Where are you?

Michelle: Well, yeah, I am sort of outside London, but I'm about 20 kilometres-ish north of a place called Brighton.

Josh: Okay. Yeah, great.

Tommy: I grew up in Brighton, just not your Brighton. Not the one in the UK.

Josh: I remember going to England and saying that I couldn't believe England had stolen all of our suburb names. No, Brighton's right. So, is it coastal then? Or what? Like, what's the— What's the vibe?

Michelle: It's south coastal, but this village isn't very large. It started about 1,000-ish years ago. It's in the Doomsday Book with about 17 villagers, and it's expanded now to about 1,500. Yeah. We've got 3 pubs and 1 corner shop.

Tommy: Do these pubs have the really low door frames when you walk in? Because I nearly hit my head. On 10 different pubs' doorways.

Michelle: One of them does, because it's been standing for a long time. The other one is a— well, one of the others is actually a club, so that's a relatively new sort of working man's club, relatively speaking. And the last one is another pub, but it burned down, so that's a fresh building. That's where I think— so you're not going to bite your head on anything.

Josh: Have you grown up there your whole life?

Michelle: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Josh: Okay. So, tell us. So, how did you end up in— I've already forgotten the bloody— the name. Can you say it one more time? I'm going to write it down.

Michelle: Horsted Keynes.

Josh: Horsted Keynes.

Tommy: Horsted Keynes.

Josh: It's two, like, I understand the word Keynes. What does Horsted actually mean? Horsted? Like a horse? Is that like a stead? Horsted or no?

Michelle: It's all linked with France and, yeah, the Crusades and and all the rest of that jazz. And it was, oh boy, the history is complex. And yeah, because there's a French link with land being given to the Duke de, um, Horsted. There's a French pronunciation. It gets a bit mixed up, but eventually it's worked out and merged into Horsted Keynes. Keynes being a raised area of ground, basically, as far as I understand it. It was actually explained to me by a taxi driver.

Josh: Yeah. And how did you— Yeah. How did you get to there? Because that's what I always wonder. Like, is it— Would you consider it a country town? Like, is it sort of— In Australia, we'd call it a country town, but it's like a small regional area, not that big of a population.

Michelle: Yeah, pretty much. And because the whole of the United Kingdom is a lot smaller, relatively, I mean, from the worst points, Lands End to John O'Groats is 750-ish miles. Call it 1,000 Ks-ish, thereabouts. You can do the maths, but that'll give you a rough idea of just how compact Britain is. So yeah, we are, like you say, a country, whatever it was, but you haven't got to travel a few miles. That's it. You haven't got to travel a few miles and you're somewhere else already.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: So you're in Horsted Keynes searching YouTube, come across my Obike video, and then you buy one. I send it over, and I wasn't ever going to be sending any of these t-shirts overseas, so I turned that off. But Michelle, um, sent me an email and said, is there any left? And I said, the last one, it's large, you can have it if you want. So I ended up sending it over to you, and, um, and then you stay connected on, on YouTube.

Josh: And then, so Michelle, the first episode you heard of the Daily Talk Show? Would that have been straight after Tommy's first video about it, or?

Michelle: No, I think I jumped in at about episode 20-ish because, um, yeah, I started watching the videos, um, then I, uh, because yeah, oh boy, some incredible videos. I mean, I, I hardly ever watch any broadcast TV, um, pretty much everything is social media. That I get input from, because pretty much broadcast TV is just bleh. But social media, yeah, you get some, I mean, I forwarded a link of one article about a BBC documentary crew who went somewhere to film something. And it turns out that it's fake. The local people, it was a tribe, right? Yeah, it was the tribes.

Josh: Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah. And whenever the tribes that they actually live in a town and whenever they get the nod that a documentary crew is coming to film them, they're out in these huts and making believe and because they know they're going to get paid.

Josh: That's so funny. And that's quite common in like touristy areas too, where they, it's like the, you know, normally people would be walking around in like Coca-Cola t-shirts and stuff like that. But then when the tourist bus arrives, they put on their traditional masks and make a bit of coin out of it, right?

Michelle: That's great. So, and if it wasn't for your videos, I wouldn't have learned anything about a rat whisperer.

Tommy: So you're watching, this is my YouTube channel you're talking about?

Michelle: Yep.

Tommy: So you went down a rabbit hole there and—

Michelle: Oh yeah, and what a rabbit hole. One question, Mancini and thongs, hashtag, what were you thinking?

Tommy: She's talking about the video. So, that's the— when I'm talking to my wife about being a stripper. Is that the one?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So, they're not my glory days or they might be my glory days. But yes, that was when I was 19 and I was a stripper.

Josh: So, I'm fascinated. I'm going to come back to it again with this Horsted Keynes lifestyle. Can you give me a sense, like I sort of like the idea, I sort of romanticise what it would be like, sort of cold. And you're inside and you, you know, you feel creative all the time and you can go and get a pie and some fucking— what are those, like smashed peas or whatever you eat? And you're just like, it's all— I have a really sort of my own picture of it, but can you paint the picture of how you ended up there and what sort of a, you know, what sort of a lifestyle is it?

Michelle: Well, I came here, I basically followed jobs. I mean, I was born in South Wales and lived there for the first 20 years, went up to Sheffield and started a degree there, lived there for about 6 years, then ended up in Folkestone, which is on the south coast, southeast coast. But from there, IT work, which is my career, was short on the ground, so I did all sorts including truck driving, egg delivery, and you name it, whatever I could to earn a living. And then an opening in IT came, and I was facing an epic choice. And the truck driving company that I was working for basically said, okay, we'll send you up your next level if you work for us for a couple of years. And then this other IT job came up in Derby. And so, um, uh, okay, I'll go to Derby, which is in the Midlands. Long storey short, I've been all over the UK and some of Europe as well for a few years doing IT work, and that's how I ended up here. Because of— we've got Haywards Heath, which is the next town, the nearest town here, and I wound up there for work and had to search for a house, which was at the height of the housing bubble, and this was pretty much all I could afford at the time.

Josh: Amazing. So, because I guess the perception I had was that you would have been— like that everyone sort of drives in far away to London or these big towns, but by the sounds of it, there's lots of sort of satellite cities everywhere, is there?

Michelle: Yeah, London is the Big Smoke. There are a few other large towns, Birmingham, Leeds, and there's others all over the place of various sizes, well, cities really. You wind up, a village will grow into a town, and I'm cutting a very long storey short here, and then a town can put forward to become a city, and then it goes through a process of deciding whether it can be granted city status. So it's all a bit— everything's evolved. Pretty much, yeah. And, uh, it's— yeah.

Josh: And so the, the, um, the IT type stuff that you're talking about—

Tommy: what is IT?

Josh: Yeah, so because I have no idea what IT— IT can be everything, right? Like, that's what's really funny about it. It could be anywhere from sort of networking to, you know, working on sites, looking after people's computer. What sort of IT do you do?

Michelle: Well, it's, it's gone through the whole thing, uh, what we call first line which is help desk support. Somebody rings up, you do what you can to, to sort out their issue over the phone. Um, then I developed to second line, which is you visit the desk and sort the issue out. And, um, it goes up to third line, which is where you're looking after servers, networks, virtual environments. And pretty much that's what I'm doing now. And, uh, it's been a career.

Tommy: You've got a YouTube channel. 'Cause I know you went through mine, I had a quick look through yours, and you've got— how many videos have you put on your YouTube channel?

Michelle: I've actually taken off more than I've got on.

Tommy: And how many have you got on?

Michelle: I don't know, I'd have to have a look. I don't actually—

Tommy: 100, right?

Michelle: Somewhere around 1,000. Let's have a quick look. YouTube. Where the heck is my stats? Because you've been doing it for years.

Tommy: You've been on for—

Michelle: It's been about 10 years.

Josh: Okay, because that's what I love about even your website, Michelle, is just it's got this, you know, the thing that it seems like— I don't know the best way to describe it, but I guess the web is sort of homogenised in the sense that like everything sort of starts to look the same and it's sort of like every, you know, there's only certain ways you can do it, buttons and shit like that. What I like about your site is it reminds me of like what it was like when I was getting into the website. Like you haven't gone crazy into like updating the design to look or any sort of like Web 2.0 or anything like that. Like I love that it looks like like it was made, like that you fucking set it up, you know, 15 years ago.

Tommy: Is that a compliment or a—

Josh: I fucking love that.

Michelle: That's exactly what I was thinking.

Josh: I know, I love that it has that, like there's no sense that you've got like the guest book, for instance. You've got a guest book. I don't know the last time I've seen a site that has a guest book because everyone goes like they all have, you know, you have blogs now and people put comments and all that sort of thing. Or tell us the journey on the, the website. And I was clicking on the site the other day and I clicked on a thing and it was like logging into your computer by FTP or something. I was like, I, I left it for a few seconds. I was like, ah, I probably should get out of it.

Michelle: Yeah, that's dead. That, that's been, that's been dead. So what's the first question?

Tommy: Was it a compliment?

Michelle: 1,231.

Tommy: Wow, 1,231 videos on a YouTube channel.

Josh: Wow.

Tommy: So she's deleted over 1,000 videos. Yeah.

Michelle: Um, it all started over 20 years ago.

Josh: Yeah.

Michelle: And, uh, when the internet started to come in, I was in, well, what was I, late 20s, I think. And, um, back when we had to dial up modems of 30-odd K. So I started designing websites, which is the first thing an AOL account you could have. 5 accounts and each account could have like 2 meg.

Josh: Yeah.

Michelle: So you had to design your websites to be fast loading and you had to bring down your graphics and that, that kind of thing is a philosophy that's always stuck when I'm designing websites. And some of those websites are actually designed by friends of mine. I don't actually do the design work. That's one thing I'm no good at. But coding I can do.. So I'll code that, they'll give me the artwork and I'll code it all up and generate the site itself.

Josh: So it doesn't feel like a template, it doesn't feel like a template at all, right? It feels like something that's been— and that's probably that handcrafted that you're talking about. You're doing the coding, you got people doing the designing. I think that really is a lot rarer now, people doing that on their personal sites, right?

Michelle: Yeah, if you wanted to get your message out there back then, you had to design websites because that was it. That was how you got your message out. And I was part of a support group, and that was in the '90s. That was how we got the support out. And then things changed as more bandwidth became available. People were doing blogs. Then it progressed up to audio logs, audio blogs, podcasts, effectively the forerunner of, and then YouTube started up and, and we are where we are now. And potentially the collapse of social media.

Tommy: Michelle, bringing you back to our podcast, what do you, what do you like about it or what don't you like about it?

Josh: You might hate listening.

Tommy: I don't know. I haven't asked.

Michelle: Um, what I like, there's a number of things that I follow and it's because it gives me insights into parts of the world that I'll never, never likely never go to.

Tommy: Well, we never knew about Horsted Keynes before today, so likewise.

Michelle: Yeah, you learn stuff and which I don't typically learn from, um, from broadcast TV. By learning from other people, I learned things like— I've learned stuff about your area, your childhood, the various things that have gone down there. Those spiders, I mean, that's one reason you'll never find me in Australia. Yeah, it's just— I also find that things have— you know, I'm learning what you two have grown up in the internet age. You've never really known that type of time when the internet wasn't around and the kind of information you've got now is at your fingertips. And seeing, hearing how you two are developing and bouncing off each other, and it's just interesting to me to learn your perspective and hear how you go through life.

Josh: Do you have a a positive outlook with everything with social media because you've seen before, you've been able to see, I guess, when it was real utilitarian thing, which was like, we need to, you know, get support or do or whatever it is. So you sort of build something for it. What is the— what is your view of— so, you know, you mentioned briefly there about sort of the collapse, social media or whatever it is, but what is your actual take on it? Do you think it's as bad as what we are sort of communicating?

Michelle: I think for it to survive and go forward, it's going to have to decentralise. I've now abandoned YouTube. The only thing that's on YouTube now in the last couple of months is Minecraft videos. I've switched over to Vimeo, and I'm putting the money I'm paying for my Vimeo account because YouTube has gone utterly— it's— I had a video up, Cooking on Meth, I called it, and it was cooking on—

Tommy: were you cooking on meth?

Michelle: I was cooking on methylated spirits using a camping burner, and it's straightforward. You can buy all the kits over the counter, and it got struck down. So I thought, okay, I'll put the appeal in, and the appeal failed.

Josh: Yeah.

Michelle: And the more I read, the more people are having more videos cut for— and the YouTube themselves are under more pressure, more and more pressure to make the platform child safe. And they can't do that. It's— you can't make the one platform do everything. I mean, we've got one politician now who's pressuring social media to stop children under 13 from using the services. They can't do that. Yeah. I mean, all they've got to do is present a checkbox. Are you over 13? The child ticks it and, you know, it's people, politicians, the older generation of politicians seem to be looking for the technology companies to solve what is a parenting problem, or rather social problem more than just parenting, because we've got social issues that are all mixed in with this. Like, for example, we've got headteachers who have for years been threatening parents who let their children play +18-rated games, and the parents themselves are under stress because they've got to work so hard in order to just keep a roof over their heads. And it's putting pressure on them as a parent. So it's not, it's a very complex, stretched issue. It's not, you know, you can't just blame the parent when the social environment is actually needs working on to give people enough time.

Josh: So what do you, what do you think the answer is then? What's the, do you think that people, you know, under the age, kids under the age of 13 or even at 13, Should they be on these platforms?

Michelle: Um, the platforms themselves are probably going to be in an impossible position. The pressure that's going to be put on them to be child-friendly is just going to be an impossible position to, to fulfill. It's possibly going to get to the point where you're going to actually have to provide a credit card number, um, in order to be allowed through to certain areas. Things are— the shutters are going to come— start to come down. In the meantime, um, I'm finding that the only way that I can get a voice which isn't going to be censored by a bot is to have my own systems or to pay for them. So the blogs that I run, the website that I run, um, everything that I run with the exception of video because I can't afford it is done on hosting that I pay for. And even then I'm paying for the video on Vimeo.

Josh: Well, the thing with Vimeo is like they're even having, um, controversy at the moment where I saw someone did a tweet, uh, over the weekend where they were encouraging people to download all of their videos because apparently they've just implemented, um, some more stringent copyright sort of rules which would see even private videos that you've uploaded being removed from the site, having your account suspended, which will then mean that you're unable to have access. So I think that it's even for these paid services, there's still, um, there's still that risk, isn't there? It's like, um, yeah, what's your take on that?

Michelle: Well, the copyright issue is there. I mean It's one thing that's caused me a couple of strikes on YouTube, and since then I've been extremely cautious. I haven't used any copyright content, even from other channels' snippets, which would be, quote, fair use, unquote. I haven't even done that. And I've done some agreements with friends and other people to use their music, and that's all agreed. And for Vimeo to be following the footsteps of YouTube in coming down on copyright content violations is— that is the law. They've pretty much got to do it anyway. It's expected. You've got the question of why, um, I emailed you earlier today and said I can't understand how on earth some creators are getting away with using so much copyright material? Is it because they're so up there in the social media space and getting so many views that they're untouchable? Whereas the rest of us mere mortals. Yeah, he's one of them.

Josh: Yeah, and the thing too is it's—

Tommy: It was either him or me because I've been for a while.

Josh: Yeah, you don't give a shit. The thing is that it's, I guess, the concern is that things like YouTube, what excites me about it is it's the democratisation of media. It's allowing anyone with a camera, just, you know, like you in Horsted Keynes or me in fucking Melbourne, wherever you are in the world, you can get a camera and you can upload content. I guess the problem is, is when there is that cherry picking that goes on. So, I think that what their foundation is based on, you know, being open for everyone, I think. But these steps around allowing exceptions to rules and things like that, I think that that goes against that.

Michelle: Well, I'll tell you one major difference between YouTube and Vimeo. If I email YouTube, I can't even email them. Yeah. I've actually tried writing physical letters to their chief exec. Vimeo, I send the guys an email, it may take a day or two, but I get a response back from a human being who's actually considered the email that I've written. The decisions may not always go in my favor, and sometimes if I know that I've got content which could be controversial, I'll email them ahead of time and say, look, this is what I'm planning on uploading. Are you guys okay with this? And I'll get a response on that.

Josh: What would something be controversial, do you think? What sort of, what sort of content?

Michelle: Adult subjects and even the discussion of adult-related subjects, like for example, sex or anything of that nature. And I'd certainly cheque that. And, and just talking about those things, not doing, doing anything. Yeah, just talking about those subjects. And I've cleared that with them before now.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And what do they say?

Michelle: What's the response to that? They say, fine, go for it.

Josh: So do you find that you're more sort of dotting your i's and crossing your t's, but for the most part Vimeo seems to be fairly open to this sort of stuff? Like, they're— yeah, what, what's your take on their position around this stuff?

Michelle: Um, they seem to be realistic. Yeah. And you do actually get a human being to review what you're asking, um, rather than YouTube. You put it up there and you just hope that it doesn't get taken down for whatever reason and you don't get a strike.

Josh: Well, one of the interesting things I saw that, um, YouTube has been trialing— they trialled with about 100 people was a way of basically self— I don't know what you call it— self-filtering, self— um, that's not self-accreditation, but basically marking each video yourself. So in the future, what they're looking at potentially doing is when you upload a video, it will say, do you talk about adult content? And then you'll tick a box and tick it, and then it will basically, um, mean that those— you'll never be demonetized or things like that. But the interesting— as I say that, one of the interesting things that you're talking about, you're not even talking about demonetization. I'm sure you're not like planning on making bank through YouTube, um, but it is that purely whether it's going to be on, you know, uh, online or not.

Michelle: Well, what the, the Vimeo's already got that. If I upload a video, I've already got a radio button that I can use to select mature. All audiences, all mature. That already exists. And I've never really been on social media to make money. None of my stuff is monetized. And I actually pay for Vimeo myself. And I'm not even on Patreon. Nothing. Yeah. Because what I get from— I'm not in this to get famous.

Josh: Yeah.

Michelle: I mean, 10 years I've been on YouTube, just over 2,000 followers, and I've switched to Vimeo, I've got 88 followers. I'm not a big numbers person. I've made real friends, real life friends, through the social media discussions that have been had, and that's why I'm there. So I'm not even looking to make a cent. It's making connections and about the social side of things.

Tommy: And it's getting on the daily talk show, which you've made it. You landed here, Michelle. Michelle, do you have any questions for us? I know that we've asked you a few, but maybe you could throw us a couple.

Michelle: Oh, I've got a couple for you, all right.

Josh: Oh, here we go.

Tommy: You've come prepared.

Josh: The way Michelle said it, it's making me nervous, but go on. Josh, what are we doing?

Michelle: Praying mantis.

Josh: Why is there praying mantis?

Tommy: Oh, hang on, backstory.

Josh: So, there's a video.

Tommy: Best video ever.

Josh: So, the video, there was a video that I filmed, I don't know, it would have been 2012, maybe 2011, I can't remember. But there was my cat, which her name is actually My Cat, lives with my parents now. We, uh, she found a praying mantis and I started filming it, uh, all going down. And they were sort of having this war where the praying mantis was on its like back feet and my cat was sort of hitting it with its, uh, paws. Is it cats have paws? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so I filmed it and it's got my mum and my brother and I like in the background and we're all sort of like having this very sort of real conversation around like, "Put it outside." "No, it's fine." All that sort of thing. Anyway, I had forgotten about the video and it wasn't until the end of 2017 where I was trying to work out where I wanted to put my YouTube videos, because I'd made a conscious effort that I was going to start doing YouTube videos again., and I saw that my Josh Jansen, like the name Josh Jansen, there was a praying mantis video and it had like over 50,000 views. And so, I ended up taking it off because it wasn't really part of the aesthetic and all that sort of thing of that. It was not really—

Tommy: It was off brand.

Josh: Off brand. The whole animal abuse is sort of a bit off brand for me now. Back in 2011, obviously a different story, but I, Uh, but then I put it back online because I wanted to get, um, you're a numbers guy, you just want to build those numbers.

Tommy: You're the opposite of Michelle. Yeah, you want to get famous.

Josh: And the monetization part of it was, it was based on however many views you had. So I was like, oh, that was going to be a quick way to get it all happening. The praying mantis, I'm sure, died though, to answer your question.

Tommy: Or on the night, did you take it outside? I just let the fucking cat maul the shit out of it.

Josh: I'm sure, uh, I'm I remember, I think the end of the video there's a sandal that comes into frame and takes away.

Tommy: Stomps on it.

Josh: I thought that was what was going to happen. But yeah, so there's the praying mantis.

Michelle: That's what I thought was going to happen.

Josh: Yeah, so did I, to be honest. So, there's my praying mantis answer. So, you've got—

Tommy: Good question, Rochelle.

Josh: Yeah, thank you. And now one for old mate Tommy.

Michelle: What happened to Andrew Melody?

Tommy: Ah, Andrew Melody is the one I made the video about, he— the modern-day man living in a caravan.

Josh: Oh, yes.

Tommy: Andrew is a great guy. He— we grew up together. So, like, he's— my brother, my middle brother is best friends with Andrew. And so, Andrew, I've known Andrew since I was born, and I actually bumped into him like 3 weeks ago. Turns out he lives in St. Kilda, the suburb that I'm in. So, I didn't even know that. And currently, he's over in Vanuatu. Or actually, he's on holiday. We're going to make another video about what he's doing now. He doesn't live in a caravan because he has a girlfriend, and I'm sure it probably wouldn't go down that well, them living out the back of this thing. But he's grown his business, CoGround. Well, it's a not-for-profit, and so they're helping out.

Josh: We've been there. Yeah, yeah, it's like a coffee, coffee van type of thing.

Tommy: So they've got a coffee van in Melbourne on this site where they have like a market once a month. And he's doing heaps of great stuff, but he's not leaving the caravan, if that's what you wanted to know. But he is helping shitloads more people.

Josh: But is the caravan for sale?

Tommy: And can it be shipped to Hallston Caves?

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: No, no, he got rid of it. He put a thing out on Facebook actually saying, I need about 16 blokes to be able to push this caravan. Is anyone around this weekend to get it out of this fucking backyard? So Andrew Melody, he's good. He's a lovely guy.

Josh: How much has the internet impacted your life, Michelle? How do you sort of— How do you describe it?

Michelle: How it's impacted my life? It's given me access to information that I wouldn't have got before. Previously, it was difficult. You'd have to go to the library or have some reference books. Around to get knowledge easily, and it's just opened all that up. I mean, it has changed in that I've now got to be very cautious about anything that I, that I read and not jump on things. But it's also put me in contact with a lot of people. I'm able to I'm actually funding a couple of people on Patreon, and it's allowing many people to fund one person's wages so they can go and do something and report back. That's incredible to be part of that. And it's, you know, the fact that I'm here in the UK, you're there, and we're able to talk at this speed. Yeah. At this speed, internationally, and it's just opened the doors and widened my thinking and, you know, it's just, it's just, well, it's just a major change, major change. It's just rather than being in a small area, it's just allowed me to just Boom.

Tommy: Well, tell us, you told us a storey before we got started and it's about your microphone and it links back to the internet essentially. So tell us about what you do with that microphone. That sounds a bit weird, but it gets better.

Michelle: Well, this particular microphone. Yeah, this particular microphone, there's a system called Vocal ID and I was watching TED Talks and this one person, she was on there and she was showing what they were doing with regarding creating voices for people who can't speak, and she was recalling going into one conference and all these people were speaking to each other using synthetic voices, and there were very few synthetic voices, and one young a young girl would be using the same synthetic voice as an older man. So what they do is they've got VocaliD and you can donate your voice. So you read lots of phrases and now they've moved to stories, so you get different intonations and they can take— you give your age, roughly where you are so they know your accent, and they can pair that up with someone similar who matches, and even though they can't speak, they're able to make guttural sounds, and they can infuse those guttural sounds into your voice to generate a unique voice for that person. Mm, that's crazy. And it does change their lives. And that's what this mic is used for.

Josh: Yeah. And where does that— Every now and then. Not everyone has that in them or the, you know, not everyone's doing this. What compels you to grab the microphone and to give back in that way?

Michelle: Ah, I was part of a support group in the '90s.. And back when, before the internet, the support groups would work by mailing lists. So people would join the group, they'd pay a membership, and then we'd compile a magazine, photocopy it, and send it out to people. And some of those people were either blind, so would we were starting to look into doing audio recordings, some, you know, various people with disabilities, and it just— and you get talking to people, and it's just, you know, one of the reasons why I've done a lot of the internet stuff. I'm damn it, I'm pasting an awful lot of years and an awful lot of complexity into a very short very short few sentences and it's very difficult. That's all right.

Josh: We're going over the 30 minutes. So you can go as long as you want.

Michelle: I'm watching the 41-minute counter on the conversation here.

Tommy: I mean, the email we're going to get is from Michelle saying you fucked the podcast.

Josh: It went too long. So it's fine.

Michelle: At least, what's his name, would like it because it's gone over 30 minutes.

Josh: Oh, Shane.

Michelle: Shane.

Tommy: Shane's going to be proud he got a shout out from Michelle.

Michelle: I was, as many of your listeners will already work out because my voice is deep, I'm transsexual. It's not something that I've hidden because I've gone into the press with that. In the '90s I did my part for education, but it's— you start putting things out and that's why I started with the internet and putting the web pages out was to get information out there, because no matter what, getting information out there, no matter what the subject is, it changes people's lives. Yeah. And I know that my life has changed because of information that other people have put out there and gone to the trouble of, and it's just paying it down the line, really. Just paying it down the line. I mean, it's, um, yeah, it's a lot more complicated than that, but that's enough of it.

Josh: Yeah. And so what— so did you find, you know, and, you know, answers to big life questions online? Did you, did you find that being able to connect, did it help you, help you through that journey? Or do we rely on it too much? Like, do you— you know, through the experiences that you've had, have you— do you think that we rely too much online and we actually should be going and speaking to psychiatrists or psychologists or professionals? Where do you see the scale in how the internet helps?

Michelle: Well, you have a bit of a problem with the professionals in that they can't tell you what to do. I mean, I've spoken to a number of counsellors over the years and they can't tell you what to do. They can only hold up a mirror and let you talk until the light clicks. With various things that I was facing, I mean, I was lucky. When I was in my teens, there was a magazine called One to One, and that went through all sorts and gave me education that I wouldn't have got, again, before the days of the internet. Enabled me to get a handle on things. I could actually— ah, there's this word and there's these few paragraphs explaining what this is. I mean, like, back in those days you couldn't go to an adult or a teacher and say, you know, you'd be shut down, you know, you'd almost be stigmatized. Not quite so much like that these days, although a lot of people still keep things inside rather than seek help. And I was certainly touched, Tommy, when you were speaking about your friends who have committed suicide. I typed one hell of an email and I didn't send it. It's having— if you don't have a handle on things, You can just go off the deep end. You can try and overcompensate. And I'm very lucky that I'm still here and I have all my faculties after the things that I attempted to do. Yeah. And the— that's— the internet has sort of changed that because we have the information that we can look up now and we have people that we can talk with and we are able to talk with people who are not local but are willing to talk and cross the boundaries. Like for example in the US, if someone is below a certain age, then an adult cannot talk with them legally about certain subjects. So where do they get help? Yeah, crazy. Yeah, but also you wind up talking with other people. One of— it's taken me about 30 years to talk with various people, and I was talking with our local— about the religious side of things, and I was talking with the local priest here, and that's when I finally made my decision. Yeah, I'm atheist, and people help each other. And that put that box to bed. And I don't think that I could have got that kind of information from other people because there are cultural differences. Yeah. So, you know.

Josh: And what do you think has been the, you know, obviously there's been a lot of progress you know, in the last 30-odd years. What, what do you think is the misconception now? Like, I think— I feel like we've come a long way, but in any of these subjects, we still have a long way to go. What, what is being missed? What's missed at the moment, do you think, in the, in the conversation, in what we know, that you know from the experiences that you've had?

Michelle: I think what's missed in conversation is that some people aren't listening. I think there's a case in some cases that people are trying so hard to get their own voices heard that they don't stop enough to listen to the other person. Mm-hmm.

Josh: Yeah, and is it How do you over— how do you think that we can overcome that? Is it just a matter of, you know, asking more questions? Is it like, how do we, how do we bridge the gap specifically around, you know, you mentioned religion, um, you know, do you— how, how do you feel like you can bridge the gaps between, you know, these subjects and what you've experienced and religion? And can they, can they live in a world, you know, sort of— I don't even know the right language, but you know, how do they live together? How do they live in the same town?

Michelle: Um, people being tolerant of each other. Yeah, that's, uh, it's— there are problems when people of some religions or none try to force, you know, try to force other people to work their way. Like certain foods, for example. That's one that's kicked off here. And Again, very complicated subject trying to bring down to very few words. I think tolerance, tolerance of each other and not wanting other people to always want to do things your way. For example, halal food is put forward in the UK the reality is it's business behind it. Yeah. That if a business was to properly address everybody, and that in order they'd have to have two production lines, for example. But they don't. They only want to have one production line. So they produce everything one way. And But because nothing's labeled, nobody knows what they're eating.

Tommy: Yeah, just one question. Do you have, um, HSP packs in, um, in Horsetead?

Josh: It's, uh, what does it stand for?

Tommy: Halal Snack Pack.

Josh: Halal Snack Pack.

Tommy: Just on the topic of halal, have you heard of those?

Josh: It's big here.

Tommy: Huge. I haven't heard of them, but I think you're right. It's like they've actually become popular And basically what it is, is a bed of chips, like hot chips, you know, fries with like meat and sauce over the top. And yeah, they're big.

Josh: And so, Michelle, are you thinking that there needs to be, you know, how do you decide what is considered mainstream?

Michelle: Can you rephrase the question, please?

Josh: Yeah, so like, what is— I guess, um, you know, what is normal? You know, like, if we, if we're trying to, if we're trying to communicate, if we're trying to, uh, you know, if we have things on shelves or we're trying to create audiences or customers or things like that, it's, um It seems, uh, in the world that we are in now, it's very much about, you know, individual identity and, you know, being comfortable in you. And I think part of that is that we're all really different. So, you know, how, you know, how do you sort of comprehend that?

Michelle: Um, proper labelling so that people can make their decisions.

Josh: Yeah.

Michelle: I mean, at the minute, things are not— things are going ways and people feel not empowered because they're not given the information to make their own decisions. And that is a problem. There are— there's been big problems with the denial of service simply because you are a certain way. For example, people who are, for example, Christian, for example, denying service to a homosexual couple. A few of those have hit the press and gone through court. And it's There's no easy answer to any of it. There's no easy answer to any of it.

Tommy: But, um, we started talking about this because of— we wanted to know how the internet has changed your life or what it's done to you. And it's like all this stuff was started to— for community. Facebook was meant to be a community, YouTube a community. Yeah, but it does that, but then it goes to the extreme as well. You know, you said you've had your life changed, or you've met people out of your 200 followers. You've, you know, you've formed connections and all of that stuff. So it is doing what they want it to do, but it is— we don't know the depth of how far it can go yet, which is—

Josh: it's built— I think that it has— the internet, you know, is a conduit to be able to, uh, for empathy in some regards. But for empathy to happen— so this could, like, this conversation that we're having where building connection. This could be equally done the other way where it's, you know, not positive or people, you know, keyboard warriors on a social network putting out hate. So, it is that the internet really is just heightening everything, isn't it? And it just so happens that there's really great things. It's the equivalent of the telephone. The telephone can connect you with loved ones and people all around the world. It's also where where the fucking telemarketers get you.

Tommy: This is interesting, Michelle. I've got a friend who I was working with last week who worked for Nokia, you know, the old phone company. So, and she was like in the marketing department for when they released the big huge Nokia phone that could send it. It was basically, they marketed it as, um, you can send faxes on your mobile phone. And the marketing ploy to get this out there was people are going to work less. People are going to finish work at 3 PM because they don't have to be going into the office or going to somewhere to do a specific thing to communicate. And so that was how they sold it. You're going to work less with mobile phones now that they can send faxes from your pocket. It has gone the other— the complete other direction. People are working more than ever because they can.

Josh: Well, even, even look at Twitter, right? Twitter was something You know, when I first got onto Twitter, it was literally for you to send a tweet, you'd send a text message, and then everyone that followed you would get a text message as well, right?

Tommy: Josh was 3 when he was on Twitter.

Josh: That's what Twitter— that's what Twitter was, right? Um, and the thing was that it was all tech geeks, and it was all— and you loved Twitter, and it wasn't because of the technology, it was because of the people, like, like-minded people. And I think that that's even, Michelle, what you're identifying with is, you know, in the '90s you can create this group and this community, and that can actually live on any platform. Um, and I guess that's the, uh, that's the kicker with all this stuff, is it's like it gets— as soon as it goes mainstream, anything that goes— gets too big or goes mainstream normally, um, goes to shit. I mean, what's your view on that, Michelle?

Michelle: Am I out of control?

Josh: Am I getting— am I getting too negative about it? About being mainstream?

Michelle: I don't think it's too negative, but it's certainly a challenge that it gets too, too much that they haven't got enough humans to make sensible judgments on things. But on the work side of stuff, it's certainly in the— in the EU, there was a working directive. You should only work a certain number of hours. And the UK actually won an exemption to that. And one MP has now decided, oh heck, he's had a heart attack. And he said, oh, I need to be working smarter and not longer. And I don't know how long— there's been numerous studies over the years that if people work less, you get more out to a degree, you get more out of them because they're more able to work. But if you're a corporation, you get as much as you can and squeeze every hour out of your employees as possible. You're going to burn them out, but to the corporations, what the hey if you can just throw them away and employ somebody else.

Josh: Yeah, it's a bit of a paradox really.

Tommy: I'm quitting the internet after this conversation.

Josh: Look, how about this? Saturday, Bree and I went out and we decided not to bring our phones. We turned our phones off.

Tommy: This is big for Josh.

Josh: This is huge, right?

Tommy: This is—

Josh: I haven't been without my phone unless I'm on a plane and I'm still using it. I just don't have connection. But so, I— It would have been 8 AM and we were— Didn't get home till 2 PM, and I couldn't believe how many different things, like I pay using my— I didn't have my Apple Watch. I put on a, like a normal watch.. And so, all of these things, like we walked into the city and then we're like, oh, we'll just get an Uber back. Can't fucking book an Uber. And it was so good. There was something so amazing about it. I loved the experience. So, I don't know, you know, Michelle, do you have a smartphone? Are you connected?

Tommy: Josh, take time. All the two have these in Horsin'.

Josh: Well, because I think Michelle's, What I've gathered from the way Michelle does things is you do things a bit differently. So, you're a techie, but you do it your way. You're not a conformist in the sense of you're not just sticking with YouTube or doing this, you know. And I think that having that mindset means that you don't necessarily just let things in. You don't just say, "Oh, I'm going to use the iPhone," because you've seen the impacts that things have. So yeah, what's your phone setup? Do you turn it off at night? What do you do?

Michelle: Yeah, I am connected. I'm in IT and we get updates from servers and services, but I don't use Android and I don't use iPhone.

Josh: Yeah, you're using a Nokia, using a potato.

Michelle: No. This is an interesting one because when Nokia was working on an operating system called MeeGo, and then Microsoft bought them and Nokia ditched MeeGo and ditched the staff. The staff then started up a company called YOLA, and MeeGo became Sailfish. And the interesting thing that's happening, there's a couple of things interesting happening in this space, and again, this entire podcast is bringing so many complex complex issues down to so many small—

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, this is what you get.

Michelle: Yeah, the risk of misrepresentation.

Josh: We're going to open this, send your emails to hypethedailytalkshow.com if you want to, and we'll forward them on to Michelle as well.

Tommy: Our IT support.

Josh: Yeah, but go on, Michelle.

Michelle: What pretty much happened is they made the operating system open And Google have got another system that they are going to replace Android with. I've forgotten the name of it offhand. I was reading about it. So, and Google have been trying to take more control over the phone providers, and obviously the phone providers are kicking back against this. My current phone is actually a Sony, which is unlocked. So I was able to unlock the phone with Sony's blessing and load Sailfish onto it.

Josh: So Sailfish is like an operating system, like an iOS?

Michelle: Yes. Okay. Yes. It would have been MeeGo and would have been the next operating system-ish that Nokia would have come out with had they not been taken over by, uh, Microsoft.

Josh: And who's, who's developing apps for it? Like, is there, are there many apps?

Michelle: There's a number of apps, but it also has a Dalvik, which means that it's able to run Android APKs. So you can download an APK, load it, and run it.

Josh: So an APK is a, is just like an app, like is the app installer, is it? Or what, what's the APK again?

Michelle: Yeah, if you go into the Google Play Store and select an app, you're downloading an APK file.

Tommy: All I want to know, does your phone have Facebook? Does it have Insta? Can you tweet?

Michelle: I don't put Insta on it. I don't put, uh, I could if I wanted, but I don't. And then that I think is one of the key, key things. And I don't overload. I mean, I'm at the point where the phone can go beep a certain way and I leave it. I don't respond. I can see stuff come up on Facebook and I can leave it. I don't respond. I respond when I wish to respond. I'm not like Pavlov's dog. The phone goes and I'm instantly on it.

Josh: Yeah, I definitely feel like—

Michelle: that's where I think—

Josh: yeah, I feel like I get like that. Hey, I wanted to know, um, you've listened to a lot of the episodes. Where are our blind spots when you listen to us? What are we— what are we missing? What do— what do we need to be schooled on?

Michelle: Well, where I feel, you're inviting people to respond on email, and that doesn't seem to then carry forward to the next episode. And it's sort of like closure, filling the loop and involving the audience, because unlike the radio shows, you don't typically get people able to respond on the phone there and then.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle: That there are some extra bits and pieces that could just be worked in. And I feel like you might get more response if that response was fed in and if people felt that they were being part of the show. But obviously, with trying to keep it to 30 minutes, it's not an easy call to make.

Josh: I think that it's the— and we were speaking about this over email— I think it's the the lack of structure we just have at the moment, right? It's like we literally— if this was a radio program, you know, with, uh, Tommy and I have both worked in radio, you'd have a run sheet and the producer would have gone through your website and would have listed all of the— your key points. So it would be your, um, your subscriber numbers, your most popular videos, and all that sort of thing. And then they're the talking points and we just sort of go through them. I guess Yeah, and I think that's the way that we've been able to get, uh, into deep conversation with both you and when Tommy and I doing the show regularly. It's the, um, it's that balance, right? It's the opportunity to have the play and to the explore and to ask the questions, but the structure that people can feel like they're let in. And that's a big part of what we want to do is make sure that Like, we fucking love getting it. Like, I get pumped every time we get an email. And to be clear, you're like, you know, you're one of the few people that do email. Like, every 90% of the emails we've gotten we've put on air. So we're not, you know, we're not the, uh, well, if you want to get onto the show, that's how you do it. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Michelle never asked. We just thought, fuck, we need to, we need to respond to all these emails in one hour-long episode.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: That's what we've done.

Josh: Maybe we do that maybe every 70 episodes, we get everyone who's emailed us on and we just have a bit of banter. Just respond to them. Any other thoughts, Michelle? What else is on your mind? What else is—

Tommy: what's the thing? I mean, Josh is trying to push it out. I've got to get to my office because my work experience girl is there.

Josh: So yeah, final thoughts.

Tommy: Final thoughts, Michelle.

Josh: Well, you know, what do you want to leave the Daily Talk Show listeners with? Could be anything. It could even just be your domain name.

Michelle: No, I don't push myself. I don't plug myself.

Josh: Leave that to Tommy and I.

Michelle: Keep it up, guys. It's refreshing to hear things outside my experience and learning more and even watching you guys and listening to you guys as you develop and go on. Things and live life.

Josh: Thanks so much, Michelle. And thank you so much for like spending the time because I know it's nearly 1 AM.

Michelle: Have you got work tomorrow? No, well, sort of. We're working on the house. It's a very— anything involving me is a long story. And that's the only thing that I feel is a bit of a problem here is I've potentially said some very controversial things, which are actually complicated issues that Oh, I've just squashed them down to a few sentences.

Tommy: I think you've been pretty mindful. I wouldn't worry too much. You've been mindful and—

Josh: Yeah, and that's always the risk. I think that like Tommy and I are always speaking about that, which is like we, you know, you don't talk because you're worried that, you know, we're going to sound ignorant or we're not going to get into the depth that we want to. But the reality is that We can only— people can think about what they want about our thoughts and all that sort of thing. And we love being challenged. We love getting the emails because then we can address things and we can— the thing is, if we talk and we put it out into the world, we can actually learn. And we can— I think that people will have a new context with your storey and will be potentially seeing the internet a different way. I've been inspired to cheque out that audio, you know, the microphone thing and getting into that, because that sounds really cool. But thanks so much, Michelle.

Michelle: No problem. Thank you very much. Take care of yourselves and best of luck with future episodes.

Tommy: I'll be listening. Thank you. Onwards. That was to 100.

Josh: Yeah. And we'll be following you on Vimeo as well. That's it for The Daily Talk Show today. Remember, as Michelle has done many times, you can send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com, and we'll make sure to make it a part of this show. Thanks for all the support in the last 70 episodes. And if you are enjoying the podcast, a review through the iTunes app or the podcast app on the iPhone is appreciated. Have a good one.