Bad Pork Roll

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, episode 73.

Tommy: What is happening, my people? You know what I thought then? There's some vloggers and there's this one Ben Brown who opens, um, you know how he opens his vlogs? What's happening? What's happening, everyone? Oh, he does this weird, like, he's a South African dude and he's just got this phrase that he says at every point.

Josh: Yeah, it's a, it's a common, um, vlogging technique, right? You open it up the same way. Yeah, we do that a bit. The Daily Talk Show. I guess it's just saying the name of the podcast, isn't it?

Tommy: Exactly right. There's— you've seen the video of the YouTube kid, the kid who's on YouTube who's like 10, and he made a video about me?

Josh: Yes. Yeah, yeah, Shay Mack.

Tommy: Yeah, Shay Mack. I still haven't made a video about what you could— what we can learn, 10 things we can learn from the 10-year-old YouTuber. Oh, that's a good idea because This is a kid who it's like he's got mum's iPad and he's worked out that he can use software.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he's self-taught himself, like self-taught, and he games and he records his screen. It like, it blows my mind how young kids— I mean, we're speaking about it yesterday with Trevor about kids and they're, you know, adapting or adopting technology super, super early.

Josh: Yeah. And his kids, if you didn't listen to that one, they have specific Minecraft channels that they follow on YouTube. And every Saturday and Sunday morning they can go on the TV and watch these specific channels.

Tommy: We're just in this world of— and I think I'm thinking about this more because of Bodhi— of just, you need to be able to find initiative in yourself to pick up something and just learn.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And do it yourself. And rely on yourself.

Josh: Yeah, I think that when you say these things, the one thing that I think about too is, fuck, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, you and I, every— like a lot of creative people. And I think that that pressure to make, to fucking bring in money, to be being creatively fulfilled, to fucking push boundaries, to be doing like creating when you don't want to create and all that sort of stuff. Like when, like what's—

Tommy: What's your thought on it? What is the thought? Is it a negative or is it—

Josh: It's a question on like, is it necessary?

Tommy: I think it is.

Josh: Why?

Tommy: Because I think the process you go through as a business owner, as a creator, someone going to university, as someone doing a course one-on-one with somebody, there are times— because our minds are very similar in our brains, the functionality of the human body and everything we experience. Like, it's a human experience to feel anxiety, to feel stressed, to feel really happy one day, to feel super motivated, to feel fucking down and flat as fuck.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so It's like a roller coaster and everyone's on the roller coaster. We're just on a different cart on our own track.

Josh: It seems to come— it feels like in some regards though it's cyclical in the sense of it, uh, last week speaking to a few creative friends, everyone was in a slump. Everyone was like fucking struggling. And Bree said, oh, it's there's this Mercury thing, some fucking—

Tommy: Mercury rising.

Josh: Yeah, what is that?

Tommy: Oh, like astrology, I can't remember.

Josh: Bree's never mentioned this in my life, but since she's been in an office, like an all-women office, Mercury rising.

Tommy: And they're talking about this stuff. I know, we've got friends that are into that, and I don't really listen to that stuff, but I think my point is it is hard, and I think the selling bit and the real, like, the stuff we hear, the motivation, do it when it's tough, is 'cause The reality is that's when people aren't fucking doing it and they want— they don't become who they want to be.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's because they don't push through that stuff. And it's easy to say that, even me saying that, it sounds fucking cliché. It's like, but I feel it. I'm fucking— I feel flat as fuck at the moment.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I was feeling a bit off, like, like, um, my body, like, I was shitting myself the other day. Um, the podcast with Michelle.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I literally came into that And I think I was a bit quiet and I didn't want to tell you that I was feeling flat as fuck because I wanted to get through it and I didn't want to bring the energy down.

Josh: Because you had spitty bum.

Tommy: Because I had spitty bum. Bad pork roll.

Josh: But was that really what it was?

Tommy: No, I don't think that was.

Josh: If I'd known that, we could have called the podcast Ep Spitty Bum. How pissed off would Michelle have been if it's like, you called the episode Bad Pork Roll? It's like it was either that or spitty bum.

Tommy: No, but I did, I felt bad. And I still feel flat today because I, I think it was probably something more than just bad pork roll. Yeah, but I am—

Josh: that'll be today's episode. We'll call it Bad Pork Roll.

Tommy: I've been— okay, I've been talking to, um, the girl who comes in, does work experience with me. Yeah, 16. She was on the podcast, and we talk about initiative, and we talk— and it's sort of, you know, she's left school, and so I, you know, we talk about my experience leaving school and how I've got to where I've got to. And I reflect on university and people who've, who would, who've done or doing what I do, but going through that university route. And you and I didn't go to uni. Yeah, but we're driven and we have initiative to create projects that allow us to exercise us, you know, and, and grow a skill set. By ourselves. Where university is, you're learning from somebody and they set you a project, so there's learning doing, you know. It's—

Josh: but I feel like we, um, I think we're overstating it. I think that we're almost too grandiose. One of the things I've been thinking about is it's like, if I actually spent 2 hours a day on something of meaning, like a piece of content how much I'd actually be able to make. The Daily Talk Show, I think, is an example of this where I'm starting to feel like, like maybe you don't need to get fucked up tired and like be angry at yourself. Because I feel like I get angry at myself where I'm like, fucking do it, you got to do it. Like, and that level of anxiety is more paralysing. Like, it's this weird thing where it's the motivator, But also that negative talk can't be fucking good for your soul.

Tommy: Well, I think there's the motivator. Okay, for instance, radio, working, getting up at 4:30 AM every morning, whatever it was, fucking early. It felt like the middle of the night. And the motivation was that it was a job and I had all these people expecting me to rock up.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So the motivat— like the mo— not even motivation, not feel-good motivation, the drive, like that's why I'm— I don't want to let these people down. I've been given this opportunity, or I've earned an opportunity, and I, and I have to show up. I fucking didn't want to be there a lot of the days that I was feeling down and flat like I am. And you have to push through. And so when a creative endeavour is like very much self-prescribed, like, yeah, you coming up with the thing that you want to do 2 hours a day to create this documentary, then 6 months, you're gonna feel like a fucking piece of shit some days.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And, and that's where this selling, like, the, the, oh, you gotta grind, it's like, yeah, I get it, grandiose to be saying you can get through it, but you know what, it actually is a, a grand achievement to get through something like that.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a, um it's a motivator. I think that I'm like reflecting a bit on, um, you know, definitely most people I know work in sort of waves and you sort of ride these big highs. I feel like at the moment I've got like, I've got work coming in, I've got like, I've got enough work for until I go away, and there's a few like cool projects and all that sort of thing, but everything feels a little bit hard. You know that feeling where everything's just like, oh, this is, um, it's that, that knowing that it's like, it doesn't feel natural. Like what I'm doing, like the, it feels like it's almost like the machinery isn't sort of lubricated, just sort of, you fucking, like it's actually grinding internally.

Tommy: I think that's it. Yeah. I went to a, um, uh, Females in Business or Females, some women's in business. Really great.

Josh: Another one in Queensland.

Tommy: Private event.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Pretty, you know, expensive tickets per head. There was 100 corporate women there and I got an invite to film.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, you know, I wasn't there just to hang out, but mate, Kevin Rudd's wife was talking.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Therese, Therese someone, and Gail Kelly, CEO of Westpac, one of the 7th most powerful women. Yeah. And a couple of other business owners that are killing it. And dude, they're saying exactly what you, they were describing what you said around it hurts. Like, which it sounds crazy, but we've talked about humans wanting struggle and it being this thing, survival is like we need the struggle to survive 'cause it keeps us going.

Josh: And I think the upsetting part of it is things feel self-inflicted as well. I think that when you work for yourself, anytime that you're not like— I think that what I struggle with is there's always things to be done. And when there's always things to be done, whenever you're not doing that thing, you can— I find it hard just to relax or to just be in full enjoyment. I almost have to accept the fact that if I'm doing something outside of my to-do list or the work that I need to get done, that I'm, um, I feel a bit anxious. So, you never really relax. Or it's like, probably a good example, uh, was like doing work, you know, like, uh, yesterday was the public holiday. You think about the day before, like public holidays when you work for yourself, bit of a clusterfuck because all of a sudden, you know, the shoot that you have today, on Thursday, all of a sudden that's fucking like, you've got to be thinking about that the day. But you know, the Tuesday, you can't like— so you're losing time. And there's a sense of like thinking ahead, like that constant thought of like, have I got everything I need? I need to organise these things. What else do I, um, yeah. And I think that that's, um, I guess the reason I'm saying this is because maybe I identify that a lot of other people feel this way. Yeah. And it's maybe, um, it's talking about it because I know that it's like, like, it's, it's, oh, it's okay. I also think that it's never as bad as what we paint the picture to be. Like, I feel like for me, I can really get in my head about it and just being like, haven't fucking done the YouTube channel, I'm not doing like the work, like I'm slow on my email. This per— like, this person mustn't be happy because I was slow on my email. Or it's like, I got an— how about this? I got an email from a massive global company which actually it went to my, um, spam folder because it went through my fucking WordPress contact form, which I need to sort out.

Tommy: Anyway, I've lost about 6 grand's worth of work. Yeah, that way going to spam.

Josh: Well, so I, I caught it a day after I got it and I sent them an email.

Tommy: Good catch.

Josh: So I just checked the spam thing regularly. But the interesting bit was that they were saying, hey, we've got this, you know, you were recommended to us, got this project, like global project, would be in August. And so it's just like this friction where it's like, okay, there's this person, this company, and they sent me a link to the example. And you're talking like probably a quarter of a million dollar project. It's fucking huge. And I do, I feel like out of my depth because I like, I look at the project that they've gotten done previously. I'm like, why the fuck are you going? Like, that's phenomenal. That's like, sound design's amazing. This is like, you know, a massive operation. And so I, I wrote back and said, hey, yeah, let's, let's catch up. Sounds like an awesome opportunity. But But then there's that fucking thing of like, I've got my trip, like it's that opportunistic thing where it's like, okay, I'm meant to be leaving end of June, being away, you know, June, July, August, September. And then you have like, it just, I feel like it rattles you. It's a weird problem to have 'cause like a fucking opportunity, but it's like question, it's enough to question, am I doing the right thing? Should I be? Maybe I shouldn't be going on this trip.

Tommy: Um, well, it's not set in stone.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So you can't like— you don't know if you're gonna get it or not.

Josh: You can't base your whole life around it, right?

Tommy: What world do you want to live in for yourself? You know, what, what level of anxiety do you want to have in your life?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Harper, my mate Craig Harper, he had 4 gyms, a couple of businesses, you know, but, you know, 100 and something people working for him, like, you know, working within his facilities. And yeah, he, he threw it all in because he was living in a state of, you know, anxiety, essentially, like waking up in the middle of the night having to write shit down. And, and he just realised it's not for him.

Josh: And is that— I guess that's what I'm trying to work out, is I went down the rabbit hole of a bit of comparison where I looked at like what company did do their last video, I'm like, fuck, they've got a— like, they weren't Melbourne-based, um, they had a fucking amazing operation. I'm like, you know what, that's actually how I would write. They were really that sort of few steps ahead. And, um, but then you can be a little bit reflective on it, right? Which is like, okay, I'm looking at that and I find it aspirational, but it's not what I want.

Tommy: What do you want? You don't have to say it, but it's like, that is the thing, right? Yeah, because that's when you feel yuck, is when the thing you actually want is out of alignment with the thing you're going towards.

Josh: I think what's also really hard is what happens if what you want, uh, is, is not in alignment with what you're good at. You know, what about people who are really good at something, uh, but they fucking hate it? That'd be hard.

Tommy: Oh, just watch The Voice.

Josh: That's people who are fucking want something and, and don't have the talent, right? Is that what you're referring to?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's— they're singing. Yeah, they look like they just fucking love it, and it's like, bro, do you not know? Yeah, have you not watched yourself back? That's a level of— I mean, what we're talking about is a level of awareness within yourself. To, to, to read these things, you know, to see how—

Josh: but could that be someone's calling? That's what I wonder. Like, how does someone— like, how do you reconcile the idea that my calling might be to be singing? I feel happiest when I sing, but I'm not a good singer, so the market doesn't necessarily see what I feel. There's a misalignment between how I feel, what I can— it's like podcasting in some regards. I feel fucking great doing this. Can I— I can make more money at the moment doing videos, which I feel sort of aligned with. And that's a fucking weird thing with all of this. Um, and Bree even asks these questions to me, which is like Will you ever, will you ever be happy? In the sense of like, you go along to the— you get to the point that you want to get to, and it's like, I think I want something else now.

Tommy: Yeah, switch it up.

Josh: Yeah. And then that's switching it up. I get— there's that little bit of a panic inside me, which is like, um, will I ever find the one thing?

Tommy: So I did an interview with Craig Harper, and we talked about this. And I posed the question of, because I feel the same, like, fuck, you know, you set this goal and you, you get there and you're just like, fuck, this isn't it. And then I think for the next thing that I said that the same thing will happen.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he's like, yeah, but alternatively you get there, it's fucking amazing. Yeah. So there is that possibility, right? We're just— because I'm in that same place. Yeah, it's like when I wanted to be on TV, you got on TV. It was nothing like I thought it would feel. So then, 'cause I had progressed and TV meaning a fucking little show that I was hosting, but I had that goal. And by the time I was there, I was 6 years older and different person in a different place.

Josh: And the thing is like, you've fought so hard for your company, for your office space, for all of the things that you have. And so it's fucking hard when you look at it and you can feel like a bit of a fucking asshole too, because you're like, you've brought everyone on this journey, right? You fucking told it, like, you've put every— you've, you've told people to watch your videos and to listen to the thing and all that sort of thing. And then you're like, yeah, I don't know if this is like the— and it's based on this thing of like you're getting fulfilled, but it feels like there is a point where you sort of— it runs out.

Tommy: I've been thinking lately, I've been— I think you do this too. We've both been pretty reactive in our businesses, reactive in terms of, you know, our personal brands, whatever you want to look at that and what that means. Yeah, just us and the business we can generate purely around that and who we know and what we can do and our work can do quite a bit. It can create some, you know, good numbers, but then we then just— it's very easy to just be reactive to the work coming towards us.

Josh: So how do you— I guess, how do you make decisions that are, um, that don't make financial sense?

Tommy: Yeah, I, I'm thinking right now about one that makes no sense. And if I went to somebody and said, here's the money, I need money to do this, but I can't tell you the ROI just yet. And I think for some reason in my head it feels like that's the thing that will work, because I think that's like I'm convinced of, and I can't, I can't even articulate the thing that I'm talking about just yet. But I think that's the whole thing of it. I feel like it's, it's close. I feel like it's achievable, but it's weird.

Josh: Well, I think that the example is like The question to ask is, is anything that's easy worth doing? Easy? Is anything easy worth doing?

Tommy: A Macca's run when you're hungry? Actually, no, that's hard. So that—

Josh: well, I'll give you an example.

Tommy: But that's— reactive living is easy. Reactive business is pretty easy. Yeah, that's the easy road I feel like I'm on.

Josh: Yeah, well, there's a paradox there, which is like, it's the hard road because it's not necessarily the road that you want. Yeah, but it's the, it's the one that's going to— it's the easy way of potentially making money. But it's, um, you know, I did a LinkedIn— I wrote an article, uh, when I was, um, uh, starting Full Stack Films. Could actually bring it up. It was, um, Uh, it was about Plan Bs, and I, I wrote this article. And you know how like when you're transitioning from a, um, a job or something like that, you'll, uh, you sort of— you don't get— you fucking— you're just hyper aware of everything, and it's— everything's a bit fucking, um, uh, what's the word, you know, like you're at a sort of a heightened state of like— because you've just gone through this transitional point all of that.

Tommy: You're saying you're fucking a bit emo because you're making big moves in your life and you're very scared and you, you put pen to paper, finger to keyboard, and you type your little heart out as Josh does.

Josh: I really want to find this. So anyway, uh, my mate, uh, uh, Jimmy— I may have even deleted. I'm just typing in Plan B into my notes to see if it comes up.

Tommy: I'm going to click my fingers and Josh will have it. 3, 2, 1.

Josh: You know what, nah, yeah, we can't edit it, we can't fucking find it. So that was, nah, but basically that's, sorry for the lack of magic there, guys. But basically the point was, and I was gonna say, I was gonna post it and I think I showed it to my, I must have deleted it, I showed it to my mate Jimmy who was the HR director of Envato who I just left, and like, hey man, what do you think of this? He was like, yeah, I think it's unnecessary. And it was around, I was—

Tommy: I've given you that response to a few things.

Josh: It was around Plan Bs. And I was just like, I'm not doing like plan Bs. If you have a plan B, you'll always fall back to the plan B. Plan Bs are designed to be a safety net for when plan A doesn't work. And normally, if plan A is ambitious enough and it's like, you know, extending you far enough, then the first fucking week, month, year of Plan A won't fucking be easy. It will be so, so hard, and you'll get lots of nos and a lot of pushback, and the world just fucking kicking you in the face. The thing is, if you have a Plan B, you'll default to the Plan B. So if Plan A isn't working within 4 weeks, you'll fucking you'll pivot to Plan B, and Plan B will be the thing that you end up doing.

Tommy: I tell you honestly, the fucking hardest thing is working out that Plan A. Yeah, honestly, it's like, because what's your Plan A? And I don't— you have to go again, but we have got fluid Plan As at the moment.

Josh: And I think that this is the thing, I've got— maybe they're fucking broad strokes of a plan, you know, they're their feelings, their feelings of, okay, I want to be— feel, feel fulfilled. I want to be like inspiring people. I want to be making things that make a difference. I want to, I want to be making every day and sharing my perspective of the world. And I want to do— I think that from maybe an ego point of view, or what it— whatever it is, I want to be known for something. I don't know what that is.

Tommy: Link it with the first things you said. Yeah, known for making a difference through the stuff. I mean, just putting, putting it out there, but it's like, if you want to be known for— it's maybe it's ego, but then just find the right things to be known for because everyone wants to be, I think, acknowledged, and maybe being known is acknowledged.

Josh: Yeah. I don't want to be famous, but I want to, I don't know, I want to feel like that there's no fuel left in the tank, that I'm not fucking half-assing life, or that I don't ever— like, I don't feel like I aspire to be a billionaire or to have a big fucking house and all that sort of thing. But I think that that's the, um, that's the challenge. The challenge is working out, okay, well, what do you, what do you want?

Tommy: I've watched, uh, watching Dan Mace. Yeah, he's the dude helping Casey Neistat. Yeah, make his videos.

Josh: Has he done any videos since he's been working with Casey on his own channel?

Tommy: 3 weeks ago. Okay, probably just before. But there's one about, um, rubbish. And it's, you know, he's, he's an incredible filmmaker. He's really good. His editing style's amazing. But he— I heard him talking about, um, like he was saying that he felt that he was shit and that he stopped posting because he like— and so there's a dude who's extremely talented, there's millions of them out there that just are paralyzed. Yeah. And won't do it and won't push through. And I gave this advice to someone recently around being in a video and feeling not great about it once you come out of it. And I asked them, oh, so did you like, you watch the back? And they said no. I said, well, how do you know that you're crap? Have you edited it? No. Then how do you fucking know? Because I said, I have done all of that and I still feel shitty about some videos that I've made. I still don't like how I come across and I'm negative and it doesn't translate.

Josh: I mean, Ed Sheeran, good example. Dude went off like the radar, went MIA for a while.

Tommy: What was that about?

Josh: He, um, he just needed a break. I remember, I think it was like an 18-month period, went off social media, went off everything. And that's what I think what I'm really struggling with at the moment is trying to work out what matters. Does Instagram— like, if, if I'm a content creator, you know, is getting rid of Instagram the equivalent of a writer saying, I don't deal with pens? You know, like, I don't think it is.

Tommy: Like, what are you, a filmmaker? It's not a video, but maybe it's not a video first.

Josh: But maybe that's the thing. Maybe like part of it is you know, going super fucking deep. But it's like, we're not filmmakers, we're not video— like, we're just fucking people. And there is, you know, like, there is a desire to simplify. I'm definitely— I don't know if it was with being with the Minimalist Boys or whatever, whatever it is, but I do have a sense where I'm like, oh, you know what, I want like a few nice things. I want like to be able to, you know, to live a life that's not fucking so reactionary and all that sort of thing. I think we definitely need to get, um, Matt D'Avella on the podcast because, you know, he, um, we've spoken about Matt a bunch of times. The guy made the film, uh, Minimalism and has created his own YouTube channel doing his podcast and isn't taking on any client work. And, um, when you slow down, when you focus on those things, I really wonder, does, does that— does the conversation in your head, does it actually go away?

Tommy: I don't— I think slowing down removes some distractions, but the distraction of you is always going to be always there.

Josh: Isn't that the fucked up thing though? Because that's what I've been thinking. I'd like to go you know, a bit dark. It's like the fuck, how can you— you can never really escape your own thoughts. And it's that I think that when you are trying to be ambitious, and I definitely don't see myself as someone who's successful or anything like that, but it's the, um, it's the struggle of like, have I only gotten here because I fucking slam myself and say you gotta fucking do it, just like, or You know, is it despite all of that? Like, if I was just to fucking give myself a break?

Tommy: I think it is. You've got here because of all of that, but that's just the way you've got here. Yeah, that's just it. It's like the person who functions under extreme stress, applying the stress themselves. Yeah, it's just one way that they've found that works. Yeah, there's a million other ways. And so it's finding another way.

Josh: I think I would love to, um, I think that a biography. I don't know if there's been one written. David Letterman, interesting fucking dude, went from, you know, The Tonight Show or whatever it was, Late Show, what is— what's one he did anyway with David Letterman? He like went fucking hermit for a while, grew a big fucking beard. What about like, um, Jim Carrey, Chris Rock?

Tommy: I'm not— Chris Rock, um, yeah, one of the comedians that we're talking about. Super successful people though. Yeah, as in it's crazy.

Josh: Yeah, so they've had financial success, but what can we learn? Like, if we're aiming for that—

Tommy: You know what though, because I think about Craig's storey of building this business, you have to do it. And I think because there is a bunch of people that have got to that point, the breaking point, but then sold out, made their money, and they can actually fucking take a breath. Maybe it's not the way you're taking the breath.

Josh: The life— is that the— is that what— is that the end game? Because I don't think it is. I think that it's like the end game for me is not in having a heap of wealth or money or things like that, but it's being connected. For me, like, the best feelings are when people email the show and the people that are listening and they're getting something out of it. And that's, um, I think that that's just a hard one to, you know, as we reassess things like the Australian or the American dream of buying a home, you know, having, you know, 2.5 kids, whatever it is, doing all of that stuff.

Tommy: 2.5 kids?

Josh: 2.5 kids. I don't know.

Tommy: Where's the half kid? What the fuck's the half kid?

Josh: I know, I know. It worked. It's an average thing. If you think about it like that, Because all of that's up for question, I think there's a lot of fucking uncertainty. People don't know what to do. Do I need to buy a house? I don't feel the pressure to buy a house because I'm like, Bree and I aren't planning on having kids, but then we have conversations with people. It's like, you will though. You say you don't want a kid, but you will. And it fucks with you.

Tommy: But it's you, Josh. It's you. I can't tell you what to do. Yeah, so it's listening. It's a good podcast. I think listening back to it, I think you may hear that you haven't decided on a bunch of stuff, and that's the hard bit. And that's the thing about deciding on Plan A. Yeah.

Josh: And do you know what Plan A is for you?

Tommy: No, I don't. I think I'm getting closer. I tell you what, now I can tell you what right now. 2 and a half years ago when I started the business you remember what I was like. Yeah, coming in like a fucking dog with two dicks. Yeah, Craig Harper calls me the dog with two dicks.

Josh: I like that.

Tommy: Humping everything. Not, you know, figuratively.

Josh: I get it.

Tommy: Wasn't— I had one, one wife, one girlfriend, now wife. Um, but I, I did— I had this— I didn't even know what the fuck I was thinking. Yeah, but I'm clearer now. And so imagine 2 years from now, I'll probably be clearer. But it's, it's annoying.

Josh: I wonder that though. I wonder, I feel like, I don't know whether we're like 70% to enlightenment, oh, only 30% to go.

Tommy: No, I don't think we're getting to 100%, but it's more just go, I feel more confident now to knuckle down and do and commit to something, put my ideas out there. Because you look at people who are like a Jules Lund. Yeah, inspiring to me for having an idea and putting it out there. Not the fact that he might make $20 million from his venture.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Or that it's successful or whatever.

Josh: But the thing is, Jules is a good example. Having been so close with Jules for a year working on a show with him. Yeah. He was extra— like he was in it and he was like in his head and he was stressed and anxious and unsure.

Tommy: Mate, the person I was talking about when I was saying functions on high stress.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It was Jules.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And because that's his thinking of function.

Josh: Yeah. And is that the, is that the way to live? I wonder. It's because I feel like he's pro— like his thing is, it's like that's how he operates, that's his operating system. Can you change your operating system? And should you?

Tommy: Should I? I know he— I have spoken to him, and without, you know, sharing personal stuff, I can share my observation And there's definitely a shift in him working this stuff out, and it's, and it's good for the better, I'm saying, because what happens to work out a better quality of existing, yeah, out of that stress place.

Josh: So yeah, the, the one thing that I'll say with all of this, which I think is part of the problem I have, is I think it's Plan A is maybe, uh, too inwards focused. It's too— for what my plans have been, they've been too sort of personal and a bit selfish. And I think that Jules, you, me, everyone has different people in their life. And I think that if we can reframe and maybe take some of that energy and put some of that growth into the people around us, and if we can I think that takes a lot of pressure off us too, because we're only— it's the equivalent of you're in a, um, you're in a factory and we're one machine, but we live with, you know, 2, 3, 4 other machines around us and we're fucking doing all of their energy and all that sort of thing. Whereas if we just like— if we stop taking all the fucking power and energy and planning, we're putting all the plan into this one machine. What happens if we distribute and say, say, okay, how can we actually give back that energy? How can we give energy to others? And because I think that that is the paradox, which is by giving energy we actually receive more. We, we allow ourselves, yeah, the opportunity to fucking function in a better way.

Tommy: And then to do that, you have to battle with all these feelings, yeah, that come up, which is then another hurdle, right? But you're definitely right, by looking out versus in, yeah, no doubt it's rewarding.

Josh: Yeah, I think that's what— I think that's what religion is good for. I actually think that people who are in religions, they have a faith. Fuck, how much easier would it be if anything that happens within your business, you're like, God did this, this was, you know, God's calling, you know, this was— whether it's good, bad, Like, I know a bunch of people who, you know, are religious, especially in, say, you know, the South, you know, the, you know, South End of the US, you know, the Bible Belt and stuff like that, who are, you know, any sort of success they've had is it's just like, you know, this is God's, you know, doing. And I guess it fucking takes, takes a lot of the fucking pressure off them if there's some fucking—

Tommy: it's pushing the blame over.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: I mean, hyper-acceptance as well is another way Yeah, for people that aren't maybe, you know, religious. Yeah, accepting that everything is happening because you've made it happen. Yeah, everything around you, all the situations and outcomes.

Josh: Yeah, well, I heard on, uh, just a final thought on the Rich Roll podcast, which is if you like fucking long conversations, you should listen to Rich Roll. And he, um, he had a guy who, uh, founded, I think, the Nantucket Project, and he said something like acceptance— one way that acceptance can come is just by being fed up.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Just by throwing everything at something and just realizing, fuck, like, I can't do it anymore. Yeah, like, that is it. And I feel like maybe for Jules, for you, for I, maybe that is the— maybe that's the approach. Maybe we have to throw everything at it to realise that maybe that's not the answer. It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Thanks for listening to what I probably can describe as a bit of a psychological session. Brett keeps telling me I should go to a psychologist.

Tommy: If you've listened to this and you had any moments where you're like, you guys have got it totally wrong, yeah, all right, or you just was like, that's me, let us know.

Josh: Yeah, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you tomorrow.